{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.24,"endTime":3.88,"body":"Hello, friends, and welcome back to the Restoring the Soul podcast. I"},{"startTime":3.92,"endTime":7.736,"body":"am here today talking with my friend and colleague,"},{"startTime":7.928,"endTime":11.544,"body":"the dear and special to me, Kurt Thompson."},{"startTime":11.592,"endTime":15.4,"body":"Hi, Kurt. Welcome, Michael. Thank you so much."},{"startTime":15.44,"endTime":18.98,"body":"It is a privilege, as I said"},{"startTime":19.76,"endTime":23.48,"body":"before we started to record. Oh. That it were as"},{"startTime":23.52,"endTime":27.048,"body":"easy for me to, in the language of Harry"},{"startTime":27.064,"endTime":30.68,"body":"Potter, disapparate and apparate into Colorado as"},{"startTime":30.72,"endTime":33.58,"body":"quickly as this virtual"},{"startTime":34.72,"endTime":38.392,"body":"contraption allows us to do. Because I would love to be, I'd love nothing more"},{"startTime":38.416,"endTime":41.06,"body":"than be sitting with you in your office and"},{"startTime":42.64,"endTime":46.02,"body":"drinking coffee or, and, and just"},{"startTime":46.56,"endTime":50.136,"body":"being in each other's presence. It's always just such a joy. So thanks for inviting"},{"startTime":50.168,"endTime":54.008,"body":"me to be part of it. Oh, you're welcome. It's my"},{"startTime":54.144,"endTime":57.886,"body":"treat. And today's special because we're going to flip the roles"},{"startTime":57.918,"endTime":61.646,"body":"a little bit. You have your own podcast, the Being Known"},{"startTime":61.718,"endTime":65.39,"body":"podcast, but you graciously agreed to come on"},{"startTime":65.43,"endTime":68.958,"body":"and talk to me about my book. And the reason why that's"},{"startTime":68.974,"endTime":72.798,"body":"special, because it's special because"},{"startTime":72.934,"endTime":76.462,"body":"so much of my book. Yeah, so much of my book was"},{"startTime":76.486,"endTime":79.854,"body":"influenced by you and by the thinking of Dan"},{"startTime":79.902,"endTime":83.518,"body":"Siegel and attachment and of course, the four S's that you wrote about"},{"startTime":83.574,"endTime":86.848,"body":"in Journey of Detective, Desire or the the Soul of Desire"},{"startTime":87.024,"endTime":90.848,"body":"and that Dan has talked about, seen soothe, safe and secure."},{"startTime":90.944,"endTime":93.936,"body":"So I just want to kind of hand it over to you and we'll, we'll"},{"startTime":93.968,"endTime":97.504,"body":"jump in and meander around regarding the topics in Sacred"},{"startTime":97.552,"endTime":101.264,"body":"attachment. Yeah, well, I mean, the first, first of"},{"startTime":101.272,"endTime":105.056,"body":"all, I, I want to, I want to say to our listeners, if you don't"},{"startTime":105.088,"endTime":108.64,"body":"have the book, I, I, I want to encourage you"},{"startTime":108.68,"endTime":111.98,"body":"to buy the book. I don't. I want to encourage you,"},{"startTime":112.6,"endTime":116.032,"body":"by all means. If, if you're a, if you're an auditory listener and"},{"startTime":116.136,"endTime":119.292,"body":"it better for you to listen, by all means. It's better to listen than to"},{"startTime":119.316,"endTime":122.844,"body":"not listen at all. It's better to read on a Kindle than to not read"},{"startTime":122.852,"endTime":126.476,"body":"it at all. But I would really encourage you to buy a hard"},{"startTime":126.548,"endTime":129.916,"body":"copy of the book because I think, first of all,"},{"startTime":129.988,"endTime":133.82,"body":"University Press has done a beautiful job of putting into."},{"startTime":133.94,"endTime":136.204,"body":"I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna hold it up here. I see it in the"},{"startTime":136.212,"endTime":139.28,"body":"background over your shoulder, but I'm gonna hold it, I have my copy."},{"startTime":139.86,"endTime":143.58,"body":"Because in so many respects, if you, if you were to just sit with"},{"startTime":143.62,"endTime":146.68,"body":"this book like you were to sit with a lovely piece of art"},{"startTime":147.33,"endTime":150.794,"body":"and just meditate on what you see,"},{"startTime":150.962,"endTime":154.23,"body":"not thinking about, just meditate on what you see,"},{"startTime":155.97,"endTime":159.07,"body":"this what, for me, feels like A river of movement"},{"startTime":159.97,"endTime":163.53,"body":"of all these different parts that, where there are"},{"startTime":163.57,"endTime":167.258,"body":"fracture lines that are joined by this"},{"startTime":167.314,"endTime":171.098,"body":"gold and you have this beautiful artwork of Kintsugi"},{"startTime":171.114,"endTime":174.5,"body":"that is sitting right in the middle of it. But the physical"},{"startTime":174.69,"endTime":177.74,"body":"element of the book itself, Michael, is"},{"startTime":178.28,"endTime":181.58,"body":"a, is an embodied expression of the content."},{"startTime":183.08,"endTime":186.16,"body":"I think that what I, what I just an over. The first"},{"startTime":186.2,"endTime":189.98,"body":"overarching reflection I have is that the content"},{"startTime":190.92,"endTime":194.576,"body":"of the book is reflected"},{"startTime":194.608,"endTime":198.304,"body":"in the physical presentation of the book as,"},{"startTime":198.392,"endTime":201.698,"body":"as how beauty in our world through"},{"startTime":201.754,"endTime":205.17,"body":"attachment and through attachment that we receive through the"},{"startTime":205.21,"endTime":208.85,"body":"story of the biblical narrative, through the story that is centered around"},{"startTime":208.97,"endTime":212.77,"body":"Jesus and how Jesus comes together, comes to"},{"startTime":212.81,"endTime":216.546,"body":"bring all these broken parts together in such a beautiful way centered"},{"startTime":216.578,"endTime":219.858,"body":"around him. That is the"},{"startTime":219.914,"endTime":223.298,"body":"central theme that your book points"},{"startTime":223.354,"endTime":227.1,"body":"to that this"},{"startTime":227.14,"endTime":229.6,"body":"is we, we serve a God"},{"startTime":232.26,"endTime":235.04,"body":"who imagines beauty"},{"startTime":236.18,"endTime":239.2,"body":"already he's ahead of the curve imagining"},{"startTime":240.26,"endTime":243.74,"body":"beauty emerging out of the very"},{"startTime":243.86,"endTime":246.52,"body":"last place we would imagine it coming from."},{"startTime":247.54,"endTime":251.32,"body":"And that being the places where our trauma has lived within us"},{"startTime":251.78,"endTime":254.572,"body":"for such a long time. And so that's, that's the first thing that I just"},{"startTime":254.596,"endTime":258.284,"body":"an overview comment of the beauty of, of the book. And for our"},{"startTime":258.292,"endTime":262.056,"body":"list listeners that where you have"},{"startTime":262.128,"endTime":265.62,"body":"places in your life. I was with a friend at breakfast this morning."},{"startTime":266.08,"endTime":269.928,"body":"We're having a conversation and he made a comment about a"},{"startTime":269.984,"endTime":273.304,"body":"particular element of his life where he cannot"},{"startTime":273.352,"endTime":276.1,"body":"imagine things ever being any different"},{"startTime":277.84,"endTime":281.224,"body":"in a certain domain of his life. And"},{"startTime":281.312,"endTime":284.824,"body":"we talked about this notion of how that is so related"},{"startTime":284.912,"endTime":288.63,"body":"to not just the facts on the ground as he sees them, but it's related"},{"startTime":288.67,"endTime":290.61,"body":"to attachment. It's related to"},{"startTime":292.11,"endTime":295.83,"body":"this way of how my embodied experience in life,"},{"startTime":295.87,"endTime":299.142,"body":"like I don't have a way of even connecting to the God of the Bible"},{"startTime":299.286,"endTime":302.758,"body":"that can subsume that. And I think that one of the most"},{"startTime":302.814,"endTime":306.486,"body":"effective, beautiful things that you do in your book"},{"startTime":306.638,"endTime":310.342,"body":"is that you bring to the pages not"},{"startTime":310.366,"endTime":314.086,"body":"just the concepts of a Jesus who meets us"},{"startTime":314.158,"endTime":317.13,"body":"in the quagmire of our worst places,"},{"startTime":317.77,"endTime":321.41,"body":"but you provide practical, applicable"},{"startTime":321.49,"endTime":324.19,"body":"ways of going about doing that. Whether it's the"},{"startTime":325.05,"endTime":328.818,"body":"imagined visionary exercises that we talk about,"},{"startTime":328.954,"endTime":332.59,"body":"whether it's the, you know, the embodied exercises that we talk about."},{"startTime":333.21,"endTime":337.03,"body":"And so it is a book of deep"},{"startTime":337.69,"endTime":341.106,"body":"and embodied, like tangible, real,"},{"startTime":341.178,"endTime":343.15,"body":"earth bound hope."},{"startTime":344.82,"endTime":346.12,"body":"And it is a book"},{"startTime":348.5,"endTime":352.044,"body":"that also for our listeners who wonder if God"},{"startTime":352.092,"endTime":355.676,"body":"takes you seriously, this is a book that will"},{"startTime":355.748,"endTime":359.372,"body":"show you that God is a God who takes you far more"},{"startTime":359.396,"endTime":363.116,"body":"seriously even than you take yourself. This is a God who"},{"startTime":363.188,"endTime":366.892,"body":"suffers so much more deeply with your worst anguish than you"},{"startTime":366.916,"endTime":370.502,"body":"do. This is a Book"},{"startTime":370.686,"endTime":374.39,"body":"that reveals a God who has not just come"},{"startTime":374.43,"endTime":378.17,"body":"to find us, but is coming to find us continually."},{"startTime":379.63,"endTime":383.43,"body":"Okay. Let'S close in"},{"startTime":383.47,"endTime":386.966,"body":"prayer after that. Wow."},{"startTime":387.158,"endTime":390.982,"body":"I feel like somebody just like. That's the eulogy that I"},{"startTime":391.006,"endTime":392.01,"body":"want, Kurt,"},{"startTime":394.59,"endTime":398.15,"body":"because, you know, this. This book took four years"},{"startTime":398.27,"endTime":402.102,"body":"to come together. And it came out of my story."},{"startTime":402.206,"endTime":406.006,"body":"Not just past redemption, healing, but present healing"},{"startTime":406.038,"endTime":409.734,"body":"and redemption and struggle. And I wanted"},{"startTime":409.782,"endTime":413.622,"body":"nothing more than to help heal people's"},{"startTime":413.686,"endTime":417.43,"body":"image of God, but more than that, to help heal people's experience"},{"startTime":417.55,"endTime":421.222,"body":"of God. That. That suffering that"},{"startTime":421.246,"endTime":424.79,"body":"you talked about, that. That God suffers far greater than we"},{"startTime":424.83,"endTime":428.4,"body":"do for our anguish. That. That he's not suffering because"},{"startTime":428.44,"endTime":432.192,"body":"he's disappointed or frustrated or yearning for us"},{"startTime":432.216,"endTime":435.952,"body":"to get our act together, but it's because he hurts for us."},{"startTime":436.136,"endTime":439.808,"body":"And, gosh, what you said about he has not just come for"},{"startTime":439.864,"endTime":443.66,"body":"us, but that he's coming for us and that he always does."},{"startTime":444.12,"endTime":447.6,"body":"That's the hope of the book and the"},{"startTime":447.64,"endTime":451.12,"body":"subtitle is Escaping Spiritual Exhaustion and Trusting in"},{"startTime":451.16,"endTime":454.672,"body":"Divine Love. And some people I know think, well, I'm not"},{"startTime":454.696,"endTime":458.246,"body":"spiritually exhausted. I'm doing pretty well. But there's a spiritual"},{"startTime":458.278,"endTime":461.21,"body":"exhaustion of even deep inside"},{"startTime":461.95,"endTime":465.462,"body":"living in such a way where we think we have to obtain"},{"startTime":465.526,"endTime":467.41,"body":"God's affection or"},{"startTime":469.07,"endTime":472.662,"body":"earn his embrace. You know, we'll say that we're saved by"},{"startTime":472.686,"endTime":476.422,"body":"faith, but we're sanctified by working our butt off or that"},{"startTime":476.446,"endTime":480.102,"body":"we love. But your words were"},{"startTime":480.126,"endTime":483.65,"body":"just so profoundly gracious, and they deeply move me."},{"startTime":484.06,"endTime":487.684,"body":"Well, I. You know, I'm just gonna. I'm gonna jump right in here, Michael. I"},{"startTime":487.772,"endTime":491.492,"body":"want to go back to something also. We mentioned right"},{"startTime":491.516,"endTime":495.092,"body":"before we started the recording back in. We're recording this in. In"},{"startTime":495.116,"endTime":498.9,"body":"January of 2025, back in the fall"},{"startTime":498.94,"endTime":502.692,"body":"of 2019, I had the privilege of your having invited me"},{"startTime":502.716,"endTime":506.516,"body":"to join a number of people to help shepherd one of the weekend retreats"},{"startTime":506.548,"endTime":510.308,"body":"that you sponsor and that are so profoundly beautiful and"},{"startTime":510.364,"endTime":513.812,"body":"moving for. Have been for so many men over the. Over the"},{"startTime":513.836,"endTime":517.584,"body":"years. And there was a moment in that weekend"},{"startTime":517.632,"endTime":521.472,"body":"where, in the course of the work that we were all doing, you know,"},{"startTime":521.496,"endTime":524.832,"body":"shepherding folks like, I also found myself in a"},{"startTime":524.856,"endTime":528.64,"body":"space where I was having a part of my own"},{"startTime":528.68,"endTime":532.112,"body":"story, kind of the curtain pulled back and touched and so"},{"startTime":532.136,"endTime":535.98,"body":"forth. And there was a moment that we both recall in which,"},{"startTime":536.84,"endTime":540.512,"body":"you know, I mean, you know, dudes in that space, like, we hug each other,"},{"startTime":540.536,"endTime":543.89,"body":"right? But you and I"},{"startTime":543.93,"endTime":547.634,"body":"embraced, and it was."},{"startTime":547.722,"endTime":551.298,"body":"I will not how you"},{"startTime":551.434,"endTime":555.234,"body":"held me. And I. I can't remember how long it was,"},{"startTime":555.322,"endTime":558.47,"body":"but you know, it was many seconds."},{"startTime":559.69,"endTime":563.474,"body":"And of course, if you're not used to this, you're assuming like, okay, I"},{"startTime":563.482,"endTime":567.25,"body":"think we're done here. Oh, oh, apparently not. Oh,"},{"startTime":567.33,"endTime":571.052,"body":"okay, now we must be done. And. And it just,"},{"startTime":571.236,"endTime":574.732,"body":"it continued. And I, as I said to you"},{"startTime":574.756,"endTime":578.44,"body":"earlier, that that is a. Well, to which I routinely return."},{"startTime":579.54,"endTime":582.68,"body":"And this. This notion. So several things. One"},{"startTime":583.14,"endTime":586.94,"body":"that it created for me, it provided an"},{"startTime":586.98,"endTime":590.492,"body":"episodic. And like we talked about"},{"startTime":590.516,"endTime":593.48,"body":"episodic memory. We talk about this notion of"},{"startTime":594.1,"endTime":597.744,"body":"real time time travel memory. Right? Explicit"},{"startTime":597.792,"endTime":601.472,"body":"memory that you've got to have, you know,"},{"startTime":601.496,"endTime":605.136,"body":"you've got to have a hippocampus, you've got to have a functioning prefrontal cortex."},{"startTime":605.328,"endTime":608.688,"body":"You have to have some sense of being"},{"startTime":608.824,"endTime":612.128,"body":"comfortable and confident enough, safe enough to allow"},{"startTime":612.184,"endTime":612.78,"body":"it."},{"startTime":615.4,"endTime":619.152,"body":"And you provided that for me in a way in"},{"startTime":619.176,"endTime":622.832,"body":"which, like, that's an. That's a. That is an embodied experience. And I would say"},{"startTime":622.856,"endTime":626.208,"body":"that what you've done in your book is, is create"},{"startTime":626.344,"endTime":630.128,"body":"opportunity for people to imagine this and instructions for how people can do"},{"startTime":630.184,"endTime":633.888,"body":"this, to have real time, real world,"},{"startTime":633.944,"endTime":637.6,"body":"physical world experiences that help"},{"startTime":637.64,"endTime":641.392,"body":"us understand, like in that moment. That's an example of what"},{"startTime":641.416,"endTime":644.896,"body":"I mean when I say that Jesus didn't. Hasn't just come, but is"},{"startTime":644.968,"endTime":648.56,"body":"coming. There's a sense in which an embrace that lasts for about"},{"startTime":648.68,"endTime":652.338,"body":"90 to 120 seconds, which, until"},{"startTime":652.394,"endTime":656.226,"body":"you actually do it, you're thinking, like, that's"},{"startTime":656.258,"endTime":659.89,"body":"unusual. Yes, yes. And the embrace,"},{"startTime":659.97,"endTime":663.666,"body":"it was an example of like, I think we're done, and you're telling"},{"startTime":663.698,"endTime":667.49,"body":"me, like, no, we're not done yet. It's like in"},{"startTime":667.53,"endTime":671.07,"body":"somehow you continued to come for me,"},{"startTime":673.05,"endTime":676.882,"body":"and it was long enough that it will now live in my memory. We"},{"startTime":676.906,"endTime":680.39,"body":"embrace people briefly and we don't remember that it happened,"},{"startTime":681.51,"endTime":684.958,"body":"but these are the kinds of events that we"},{"startTime":685.094,"endTime":688.846,"body":"need and that we long for and that I would say that in our culture,"},{"startTime":688.878,"endTime":692.35,"body":"I have so many things that are distracting me, first of all from"},{"startTime":692.39,"endTime":696.078,"body":"myself. So you mentioned, like, you know, those of us who think,"},{"startTime":696.134,"endTime":698.05,"body":"oh, I think I'm in pretty good shape."},{"startTime":699.67,"endTime":703.502,"body":"And my being in pretty good shape is really my"},{"startTime":703.526,"endTime":705.97,"body":"being distracted from myself"},{"startTime":706.79,"endTime":710.27,"body":"until, you know, you offer me an"},{"startTime":710.31,"endTime":713.662,"body":"embrace that is not just your average embrace. And the embrace"},{"startTime":713.726,"endTime":717.23,"body":"itself is not just healing, but it continues to be"},{"startTime":717.27,"endTime":720.878,"body":"revealing in the very same moment."},{"startTime":721.054,"endTime":724.558,"body":"Right. So intimacy is not just comforting, it's also"},{"startTime":724.614,"endTime":727.982,"body":"convicting. Yes, convicting in the best way. It is"},{"startTime":728.006,"endTime":731.81,"body":"like pulling the curtain back on this abscess"},{"startTime":732.12,"endTime":735.648,"body":"and that laceration and"},{"startTime":735.704,"endTime":739.456,"body":"that room in my house where I have long ago"},{"startTime":739.528,"endTime":743.232,"body":"and effectively buried something that, like, I don't even know the room exists in my"},{"startTime":743.256,"endTime":747.072,"body":"house, let alone that there's something in it. And I think"},{"startTime":747.096,"endTime":750.304,"body":"that what your book is getting at is"},{"startTime":750.392,"endTime":753.76,"body":"this. You're introducing people to a"},{"startTime":753.8,"endTime":756.62,"body":"Jesus who is"},{"startTime":757.24,"endTime":761.06,"body":"intentional, who is thorough, who"},{"startTime":761.1,"endTime":764.6,"body":"is moving at a certain pace that is not hurried,"},{"startTime":765.74,"endTime":769.24,"body":"who is unapologetic in his posture."},{"startTime":770.22,"endTime":773.892,"body":"And so there's a certain sense in which he's not milquetoast, and he's not"},{"startTime":773.916,"endTime":777.7,"body":"treating us like we are either. He's also"},{"startTime":777.74,"endTime":781.54,"body":"a bit demanding in the sense that I"},{"startTime":781.58,"endTime":785.04,"body":"am. Yes, I'm demanding that you be open to me."},{"startTime":785.67,"endTime":789.09,"body":"I'm doing it with no condemnation. I'm doing it with no violence,"},{"startTime":789.67,"endTime":793.278,"body":"but I'm doing it unflinchingly. And that,"},{"startTime":793.334,"endTime":797.102,"body":"like, okay, I'm just saying all that and, like, it was encapsulated in"},{"startTime":797.126,"endTime":800.91,"body":"that embrace that we had in 2019. And that's. And so much"},{"startTime":800.95,"endTime":804.35,"body":"of that is. Is for people who. Who are wondering, who are"},{"startTime":804.39,"endTime":808.078,"body":"thirsting and hungering for a felt and"},{"startTime":808.134,"endTime":811.58,"body":"episodic in your chest sense of what it"},{"startTime":811.62,"endTime":812.2,"body":"means"},{"startTime":815.46,"endTime":817.12,"body":"that he's seen by the King."},{"startTime":820.58,"endTime":823.84,"body":"This book really gets. It gets."},{"startTime":824.26,"endTime":826.28,"body":"It really gets close to that."},{"startTime":829.14,"endTime":832.748,"body":"Kurt, thank you, as always, so much more than just"},{"startTime":832.804,"endTime":836.508,"body":"information that you're conveying right now, but your heart"},{"startTime":836.564,"endTime":839.3,"body":"is coming through visually in your voice"},{"startTime":840.36,"endTime":844.16,"body":"and your experience. You know, you're not. You're not giving me"},{"startTime":844.2,"endTime":847.712,"body":"experience that you learned in medical school. You're giving me the experience of the"},{"startTime":847.736,"endTime":851.552,"body":"vulnerability of that moment in 2019. I"},{"startTime":851.576,"endTime":854.48,"body":"want to ask you to back up and to reflect on something you said. You"},{"startTime":854.52,"endTime":858.256,"body":"said that that embrace for you in that moment"},{"startTime":858.368,"endTime":862.144,"body":"revealed something. And that when we experience those kinds"},{"startTime":862.192,"endTime":866.02,"body":"of embodied moments, that it reveals something in"},{"startTime":866.06,"endTime":869.492,"body":"us. And here's what. Here's what it revealed in me"},{"startTime":869.676,"endTime":873.188,"body":"as I offer that embrace and as I've experienced other"},{"startTime":873.244,"endTime":877.012,"body":"embraces like that. And. And for listeners, it may not just be a"},{"startTime":877.036,"endTime":880.836,"body":"physical embrace. It could be a gaze that someone has upon"},{"startTime":880.868,"endTime":884.532,"body":"you where their face shines, which is why Moses prays, you"},{"startTime":884.556,"endTime":888.1,"body":"know, may God's countenance shine upon you."},{"startTime":888.14,"endTime":891.764,"body":"Right. That's an attachment phrase. And isn't it beautiful how when we."},{"startTime":891.852,"endTime":894.932,"body":"When we have a lens of attachment, we start to go through scripture, we start"},{"startTime":894.956,"endTime":898.532,"body":"to see attachment everywhere, like, even. Even in passages"},{"startTime":898.596,"endTime":901.732,"body":"that seemingly make God look not so good"},{"startTime":901.836,"endTime":905.508,"body":"sometimes? But when I was embracing you, I too,"},{"startTime":905.564,"endTime":909.396,"body":"thought, okay, we're done, you know,"},{"startTime":909.468,"endTime":913.156,"body":"or. Or, okay, we've just crossed the line of socially"},{"startTime":913.188,"endTime":916.704,"body":"appropriate length of a hug. Right. Right"},{"startTime":916.872,"endTime":920.416,"body":"at this Point, this becomes awkward. But for me"},{"startTime":920.568,"endTime":924.32,"body":"to follow what was deeper in my heart than in"},{"startTime":924.36,"endTime":928.144,"body":"my nervous body, where I can be unsafe in the presence"},{"startTime":928.192,"endTime":931.84,"body":"of healthy touch with other men simply because of my"},{"startTime":931.88,"endTime":935.696,"body":"history, I had to breathe and relax into"},{"startTime":935.768,"endTime":939.424,"body":"that deeper part of me which said, no, I have love"},{"startTime":939.512,"endTime":942.92,"body":"to offer. I have something of, of"},{"startTime":942.96,"endTime":946.744,"body":"God's mercy to offer. I'm an instrument at this moment. And none of"},{"startTime":946.752,"endTime":950.456,"body":"that was cognitive. You know, it was all nanosecond."},{"startTime":950.568,"endTime":954.28,"body":"But what it revealed in me was, gosh, I,"},{"startTime":954.4,"endTime":957.848,"body":"I still have work to do. And my work became"},{"startTime":957.944,"endTime":961.784,"body":"surrendering into offering love. So talk a"},{"startTime":961.792,"endTime":965.096,"body":"little bit about that idea of how embodied"},{"startTime":965.208,"endTime":968.1,"body":"embrace reveals us."},{"startTime":971.11,"endTime":974.67,"body":"Well, you know, the closest metaphor I have to it"},{"startTime":974.71,"endTime":978.33,"body":"is I am,"},{"startTime":981.99,"endTime":985.822,"body":"I'm in a dark movie theater, and then"},{"startTime":985.846,"endTime":989.17,"body":"I step out into the daylight,"},{"startTime":989.91,"endTime":993.646,"body":"into bright sunshine. And at first"},{"startTime":993.718,"endTime":994.85,"body":"my eyes hurt."},{"startTime":997.17,"endTime":1000.922,"body":"And in some respects, there's a certain sense in which intimacy can"},{"startTime":1000.946,"endTime":1004.07,"body":"feel like this. It, it's like I,"},{"startTime":1004.53,"endTime":1007.11,"body":"it, it, it, it's hard. It's hard."},{"startTime":1008.29,"endTime":1011.578,"body":"But something about having been in the dark for long enough, like, I, I, I,"},{"startTime":1011.634,"endTime":1015.306,"body":"I can't, I can't live in the dark anymore. And"},{"startTime":1015.378,"endTime":1019.05,"body":"so, as we like to say, people, human"},{"startTime":1019.09,"endTime":1020.71,"body":"beings change when they."},{"startTime":1023.02,"endTime":1025.36,"body":"Not just when they've suffered, but when they've suffered enough."},{"startTime":1027.34,"endTime":1031.172,"body":"And we come into the light and the light is not always immediately comfortable, but"},{"startTime":1031.196,"endTime":1034.76,"body":"the other thing that begins to happen is that pretty quickly"},{"startTime":1035.5,"endTime":1039.268,"body":"it may not be immediately comfortable. Kind of like, oh, there's the socially"},{"startTime":1039.364,"endTime":1041.48,"body":"appropriate amount of time for the hug."},{"startTime":1043.66,"endTime":1047.268,"body":"But very soon after this, you also notice that you see things"},{"startTime":1047.324,"endTime":1050.62,"body":"much more clearly because there's just more light in the room. Yes."},{"startTime":1051.28,"endTime":1055.064,"body":"And initially we see this happen, you know, in our confessional communities frequently,"},{"startTime":1055.112,"endTime":1058.712,"body":"where someone is being captured by somebody else's gaze"},{"startTime":1058.776,"endTime":1062.408,"body":"across the room. And you see the, the first"},{"startTime":1062.464,"endTime":1066.12,"body":"sense of, like, pullback, of flinching,"},{"startTime":1066.2,"endTime":1069.46,"body":"of like, I don't know if I can take this."},{"startTime":1071.2,"endTime":1074.92,"body":"And yen, like you said, like, you, you ha. You do have to"},{"startTime":1074.96,"endTime":1077.1,"body":"engage a part of you that is willing"},{"startTime":1078.52,"endTime":1082.16,"body":"to stay in the room, that is willing to like"},{"startTime":1082.2,"endTime":1085.78,"body":"you. As you were following the lead of the spirit,"},{"startTime":1086.68,"endTime":1089.952,"body":"you followed with me, you followed"},{"startTime":1090.016,"endTime":1093.792,"body":"something that was saying to enough of"},{"startTime":1093.816,"endTime":1096.96,"body":"you, this is okay. Hold him yet"},{"startTime":1097.0,"endTime":1100.704,"body":"longer, hold him yet long. And the"},{"startTime":1100.712,"endTime":1103.344,"body":"whole time you're having to calm the part of you that was like, yeah, we're"},{"startTime":1103.352,"endTime":1106.986,"body":"done. But as you do within"},{"startTime":1107.058,"endTime":1110.522,"body":"me, what's happening is not only am I feeling"},{"startTime":1110.586,"endTime":1113.946,"body":"increasingly more comfortable and relaxed, I'm also"},{"startTime":1114.018,"endTime":1117.15,"body":"becoming aware of the ocean"},{"startTime":1118.05,"endTime":1121.818,"body":"within me that, that has Been longing for this"},{"startTime":1121.874,"endTime":1124.63,"body":"without even knowing that I've been longing for this."},{"startTime":1126.13,"endTime":1129.83,"body":"And so there is a certain revelation of"},{"startTime":1130.37,"endTime":1134.122,"body":"the intimacy. Yes. Becomes something I have to overcome. My"},{"startTime":1134.146,"endTime":1137.914,"body":"initial. The part of me that really longs for it, yet is afraid"},{"startTime":1137.962,"endTime":1141.738,"body":"of it. And as soon as I cross enough"},{"startTime":1141.794,"endTime":1145.578,"body":"of the threshold, I began to realize that there's more and"},{"startTime":1145.634,"endTime":1149.114,"body":"more and more of me that is hungering."},{"startTime":1149.162,"endTime":1153.002,"body":"And like, I didn't know all of the space. You know, the"},{"startTime":1153.026,"endTime":1155.482,"body":"light comes a little bit into the room that is dark, and then it comes"},{"startTime":1155.506,"endTime":1157.722,"body":"a little further into the room, and you see more and more of the room"},{"startTime":1157.746,"endTime":1161.562,"body":"that has been dark. And then I want more and more of the light to"},{"startTime":1161.586,"endTime":1163.67,"body":"come as far into the room as it can come."},{"startTime":1165.09,"endTime":1168.25,"body":"And so it is revealing in that way. Now, you know, we like to say"},{"startTime":1168.29,"endTime":1169.914,"body":"that. I mean, this is the other thing that I think that you do a"},{"startTime":1169.922,"endTime":1173.322,"body":"really lovely job of in this is, you know, you talk about evil. You have"},{"startTime":1173.346,"endTime":1176.47,"body":"a chapter on a section on evil in the book."},{"startTime":1177.25,"endTime":1181.002,"body":"One of the ways that, you know, evil is not going to go quietly into"},{"startTime":1181.026,"endTime":1184.71,"body":"the night. It does not approach that."},{"startTime":1185.01,"endTime":1188.682,"body":"That memory of 2019 with me and say, well, I guess we"},{"startTime":1188.706,"endTime":1192.522,"body":"lost that. I guess there's nothing we can do about that, right?"},{"startTime":1192.626,"endTime":1196.474,"body":"No, it is going to double and triple and quadruple down with"},{"startTime":1196.562,"endTime":1198.79,"body":"every move that God makes."},{"startTime":1200.21,"endTime":1203.962,"body":"And so part of what I have to do is"},{"startTime":1204.146,"endTime":1207.882,"body":"once I have that experience, I then have to go back"},{"startTime":1207.906,"endTime":1211.51,"body":"and I have to practice it. I have to practice remembering it."},{"startTime":1213.0,"endTime":1215.38,"body":"I have to go back and on purpose"},{"startTime":1217.4,"endTime":1221.232,"body":"remember this, because there will be"},{"startTime":1221.256,"endTime":1224.608,"body":"all kinds of other moments. I can't just live in that embrace"},{"startTime":1224.704,"endTime":1228.528,"body":"24 7. I have to, like, you know, I have to,"},{"startTime":1228.584,"endTime":1232.08,"body":"like, do charts. I have to do other stuff I don't want to do. I"},{"startTime":1232.12,"endTime":1235.92,"body":"have to work out things with my marriage. I have, like, other. Other moments where"},{"startTime":1235.96,"endTime":1239.18,"body":"shame will want to show up and evil want to double down."},{"startTime":1240.26,"endTime":1244.06,"body":"And so I. And so this is what evil wants to do. Evil wants to"},{"startTime":1244.1,"endTime":1246.96,"body":"disrupt my memory of these moments."},{"startTime":1248.58,"endTime":1252.06,"body":"And therefore, there is work that is required on our part, both communally and"},{"startTime":1252.1,"endTime":1255.84,"body":"individually, when we have these episodic"},{"startTime":1256.26,"endTime":1260.012,"body":"moments of earned secure attachment, as we would"},{"startTime":1260.036,"endTime":1263.836,"body":"like to say, where we are being seen, soothed, safe, secure. When those moments happen,"},{"startTime":1263.908,"endTime":1267.24,"body":"we then want to do everything we can to remember it."},{"startTime":1267.61,"endTime":1271.362,"body":"So, Kurt, once again, there's so much you said there, but I want"},{"startTime":1271.386,"endTime":1274.786,"body":"to just touch on this idea of practicing"},{"startTime":1274.978,"endTime":1278.786,"body":"the images of attachment in our experiences. Another word that's"},{"startTime":1278.818,"endTime":1281.91,"body":"often used for that is rehearsing"},{"startTime":1283.13,"endTime":1286.77,"body":"those practices. And back to this idea that as"},{"startTime":1286.81,"endTime":1290.37,"body":"we begin to understand attachment and look at our own story, how"},{"startTime":1290.41,"endTime":1294.146,"body":"oftentimes our lens with scripture begins to change"},{"startTime":1294.218,"endTime":1297.942,"body":"and we begin to see things that we didn't see before. And"},{"startTime":1297.966,"endTime":1301.75,"body":"our mutual friend and colleague Andi Kolber said"},{"startTime":1301.79,"endTime":1305.238,"body":"to me once as she was literally walking out the door of our office after"},{"startTime":1305.294,"endTime":1308.998,"body":"a podcast, she goes, michael, I'm just starting to see that all theology"},{"startTime":1309.094,"endTime":1312.902,"body":"is attachment. And I couldn't help but"},{"startTime":1312.926,"endTime":1316.17,"body":"think when you were talking about practicing"},{"startTime":1316.59,"endTime":1320.262,"body":"that image of the embrace, about how the book of"},{"startTime":1320.286,"endTime":1324.102,"body":"Deuteronomy is the book of remembrance and how so often in the"},{"startTime":1324.126,"endTime":1327.598,"body":"Old Testament we're called to remember, O Israel."},{"startTime":1327.734,"endTime":1331.454,"body":"And the Shema that Jews recite is this"},{"startTime":1331.542,"endTime":1335.182,"body":"call to remember God's goodness. But that's not just a"},{"startTime":1335.206,"endTime":1338.99,"body":"cognitive thing. It's as if they're saying in this"},{"startTime":1339.03,"endTime":1342.862,"body":"broader context. And this is where we're invited in scripture,"},{"startTime":1342.926,"endTime":1346.702,"body":"to use our imagination with scripture, which is not to say"},{"startTime":1346.726,"endTime":1350.542,"body":"that we're making things up, but to see that we're actually internally"},{"startTime":1350.606,"endTime":1354.382,"body":"representing what scripture is saying. For listeners that are wondering, okay, this"},{"startTime":1354.406,"endTime":1357.988,"body":"is getting woo woo. But what if all those"},{"startTime":1358.044,"endTime":1361.892,"body":"calls to remember were as if the writers of the"},{"startTime":1361.916,"endTime":1365.684,"body":"Old Testament are saying, okay, Israel, okay children of God,"},{"startTime":1365.732,"endTime":1369.06,"body":"okay followers of Jesus, be intentional about"},{"startTime":1369.18,"endTime":1371.88,"body":"calling to mind God's affection,"},{"startTime":1372.7,"endTime":1376.34,"body":"God's embraces, God's seeing you, Israel,"},{"startTime":1376.42,"endTime":1379.668,"body":"of looking down and not just leaving you alone, but bringing your"},{"startTime":1379.724,"endTime":1382.98,"body":"presence. And I just think this is"},{"startTime":1383.02,"endTime":1386.578,"body":"something that I've seen in my"},{"startTime":1386.634,"endTime":1390.45,"body":"work, and I certainly have to practice this in my own life,"},{"startTime":1390.49,"endTime":1394.098,"body":"that one of the most powerful things we can do is to help"},{"startTime":1394.154,"endTime":1396.95,"body":"people see in their story those moments"},{"startTime":1397.45,"endTime":1401.138,"body":"of being seen, those moments of being"},{"startTime":1401.194,"endTime":1404.738,"body":"gazed upon, those moments of"},{"startTime":1404.874,"endTime":1407.43,"body":"embrace, physical or otherwise."},{"startTime":1408.49,"endTime":1410.75,"body":"Well, you know, Michael, it"},{"startTime":1413.06,"endTime":1416.636,"body":"what's so spell"},{"startTime":1416.748,"endTime":1420.04,"body":"binding to me about all this, what's so intriguing is"},{"startTime":1420.5,"endTime":1424.2,"body":"this is so much a reflection of normal human development."},{"startTime":1425.22,"endTime":1428.94,"body":"There is a sense when a newborn comes into the world, we are with that"},{"startTime":1428.98,"endTime":1432.332,"body":"newborn, the newborn is with us. And most of the"},{"startTime":1432.356,"endTime":1436.012,"body":"newborn and infants waking hours, most of"},{"startTime":1436.036,"endTime":1439.514,"body":"that time, not all of it by any means, but most of the waking"},{"startTime":1439.562,"endTime":1443.21,"body":"hours is spent with our being attuned to this"},{"startTime":1443.25,"endTime":1446.714,"body":"newborn in some way, shape or form. There's lots and lots and lots of contact"},{"startTime":1446.802,"endTime":1450.442,"body":"where in which they are"},{"startTime":1450.466,"endTime":1453.43,"body":"storing. Literally they are storing up memory in their body"},{"startTime":1454.37,"endTime":1457.87,"body":"of what it means to be seen, soothed, safe and made secure."},{"startTime":1458.45,"endTime":1462.01,"body":"And so in this sense, memory is a thing that they are, as we all"},{"startTime":1462.05,"endTime":1465.2,"body":"do. Still, most of our memory"},{"startTime":1465.28,"endTime":1468.18,"body":"work is Embodied and implicit."},{"startTime":1468.92,"endTime":1471.98,"body":"Most of the neural networks that are"},{"startTime":1472.84,"endTime":1475.968,"body":"designed for memory are not about"},{"startTime":1476.104,"endTime":1479.776,"body":"explicit, conscious, left hemispheric, analytical"},{"startTime":1479.888,"endTime":1483.552,"body":"remembrance. It's all the stuff that my body is remembering to do"},{"startTime":1483.656,"endTime":1487.44,"body":"all the time. And then we see,"},{"startTime":1487.48,"endTime":1491.06,"body":"though, that we like to say that memory is first we sense."},{"startTime":1491.48,"endTime":1495.232,"body":"We sense things in the world, and then we make sense"},{"startTime":1495.376,"endTime":1498.688,"body":"of what we sense. But what's really"},{"startTime":1498.824,"endTime":1502.464,"body":"striking is that the very process of making"},{"startTime":1502.552,"endTime":1505.792,"body":"sense also creates its own weather pattern of"},{"startTime":1505.816,"endTime":1509.18,"body":"sensation that I then sense again."},{"startTime":1509.8,"endTime":1513.54,"body":"And then I have to make sense of what I've sensed,"},{"startTime":1514.68,"endTime":1518.394,"body":"of what I've made sense of. And this pattern"},{"startTime":1518.442,"endTime":1522.122,"body":"just continues over and over and over again. And one of the"},{"startTime":1522.146,"endTime":1525.19,"body":"beautiful things that is not unrelated to what Andy said."},{"startTime":1526.61,"endTime":1528.47,"body":"This whole sense of"},{"startTime":1530.29,"endTime":1533.418,"body":"all theology is attachment is"},{"startTime":1533.474,"endTime":1536.906,"body":"grounded in all theology."},{"startTime":1537.018,"endTime":1540.31,"body":"All biblical writing is first"},{"startTime":1540.93,"endTime":1542.95,"body":"a material world experience."},{"startTime":1544.96,"endTime":1548.632,"body":"We don't just first start with the biblical narrative first. We start"},{"startTime":1548.656,"endTime":1552.42,"body":"with people who've had real experiences in the material world,"},{"startTime":1554.64,"endTime":1558.344,"body":"and then we make sense of them. I mean, those Hebrew Bible scholars"},{"startTime":1558.392,"endTime":1562.232,"body":"who are in, you know, Mesopotamia, who are making, you know, in. In the"},{"startTime":1562.256,"endTime":1566.024,"body":"exile in Babylon, they're. They're collecting and collating and they're deciding,"},{"startTime":1566.072,"endTime":1569.832,"body":"right, this Minority Report that Tim Mackey likes to talk about, they're. And"},{"startTime":1569.856,"endTime":1573.192,"body":"they're deciding how are we going to arrange this? They're not just. They're telling a"},{"startTime":1573.216,"endTime":1577.01,"body":"story on purpose. They are making sense of things that an entire"},{"startTime":1577.09,"endTime":1580.482,"body":"nation has sensed over the"},{"startTime":1580.506,"endTime":1584.13,"body":"years. And then we discover that the way they have"},{"startTime":1584.17,"endTime":1585.79,"body":"made sense of it"},{"startTime":1588.09,"endTime":1591.89,"body":"is in and of itself a story that is being told that they want us"},{"startTime":1591.93,"endTime":1595.602,"body":"then to sense. And our challenge, of"},{"startTime":1595.626,"endTime":1599.474,"body":"course, so often is that especially with"},{"startTime":1599.562,"endTime":1602.91,"body":"modernity and 500 years of the Enlightenment and"},{"startTime":1603.37,"endTime":1607.07,"body":"kind of logical linear processing that Ian McGilchrist talks about kind of being"},{"startTime":1607.11,"endTime":1610.542,"body":"this dominated, left hemispheric way of seeing the world at a"},{"startTime":1610.566,"endTime":1614.382,"body":"distance. You know, it invades our theology, it invades our churches, it"},{"startTime":1614.406,"endTime":1618.17,"body":"invades our sermons. It's like all the. So as long as I, like, know something,"},{"startTime":1619.67,"endTime":1622.91,"body":"you know, in the abstract, as long as I have"},{"startTime":1622.95,"endTime":1626.462,"body":"information somehow that will magically be enough."},{"startTime":1626.566,"endTime":1629.73,"body":"Without remembering. There's that word again. Without remembering"},{"startTime":1630.07,"endTime":1633.83,"body":"that we were first mud long before we had"},{"startTime":1633.87,"endTime":1637.49,"body":"words. We were first bodies in Genesis 2."},{"startTime":1637.95,"endTime":1641.57,"body":"And so again, one of the things that I love about your book"},{"startTime":1642.59,"endTime":1646.374,"body":"is like a person could pick up your book, and I"},{"startTime":1646.382,"endTime":1650.022,"body":"would say when you buy this book, you would"},{"startTime":1650.046,"endTime":1653.558,"body":"rightly approach the book seeking information"},{"startTime":1653.694,"endTime":1657.41,"body":"that is not untrue. But"},{"startTime":1657.71,"endTime":1661.27,"body":"if you are open to it, you are going to encounter an"},{"startTime":1661.31,"endTime":1665.122,"body":"Encounter. When you read the book, you're going to have"},{"startTime":1665.146,"endTime":1668.77,"body":"an encounter, not just with words, not just with information, but"},{"startTime":1668.81,"endTime":1672.146,"body":"with you, Michael. People are going to have an encounter."},{"startTime":1672.338,"endTime":1676.13,"body":"And yes, you are asking your readers, you are placing a demand"},{"startTime":1676.25,"endTime":1680.034,"body":"on your readers. You're asking them to come to the table and be ready to"},{"startTime":1680.042,"endTime":1683.746,"body":"go to work. And some of that work is what you're saying"},{"startTime":1683.818,"endTime":1687.486,"body":"right here. Like, we're asking people to do the work of imagination,"},{"startTime":1687.618,"endTime":1691.126,"body":"to do the work of remembrance, to do the work of when you"},{"startTime":1691.198,"endTime":1693.942,"body":"have those embedded embodied"},{"startTime":1694.006,"endTime":1697.35,"body":"experiences that you"},{"startTime":1697.39,"endTime":1701.222,"body":"then put your memory to work to strengthen it. And in"},{"startTime":1701.246,"endTime":1704.518,"body":"this way, we see a recapitulation of human"},{"startTime":1704.574,"endTime":1708.23,"body":"development. Newborns, as we said, they come into the world, they are just"},{"startTime":1708.27,"endTime":1711.702,"body":"with parents, but at some point, as they grow older, they are going to have"},{"startTime":1711.726,"endTime":1714.87,"body":"to remember their parents when they go off to preschool, when they go off to"},{"startTime":1714.91,"endTime":1718.562,"body":"college, when they are having their own children, and"},{"startTime":1718.666,"endTime":1722.402,"body":"they are going to have to purposefully do the work of remembrance, which in"},{"startTime":1722.426,"endTime":1726.098,"body":"many respects, again, is a reflection of the first two pages of the Bible,"},{"startTime":1726.194,"endTime":1729.954,"body":"where we see a God who has made us and who takes us"},{"startTime":1730.042,"endTime":1733.538,"body":"so seriously that he expects Adam"},{"startTime":1733.634,"endTime":1736.99,"body":"to remember the commands that he has given him."},{"startTime":1737.53,"endTime":1740.55,"body":"He wants Adam to grow up and behold,"},{"startTime":1741.29,"endTime":1744.866,"body":"God is not walking. He is not with him right by his side the whole"},{"startTime":1744.898,"endTime":1748.352,"body":"time when the serpent. No, because he's taking Adam and Eve"},{"startTime":1748.416,"endTime":1752.16,"body":"seriously, far more seriously than they were taking themselves, taking us"},{"startTime":1752.2,"endTime":1755.952,"body":"far more seriously. Which means, like, I want you to, like, really partner with"},{"startTime":1755.976,"endTime":1759.68,"body":"me. So I want you to do the work of remembering in the same"},{"startTime":1759.72,"endTime":1763.312,"body":"way that when we are doing, you know, when good parenting happens, we are actually"},{"startTime":1763.336,"endTime":1767.056,"body":"giving our kids the opportunity to remember what it was like to be"},{"startTime":1767.128,"endTime":1770.72,"body":"loved by a father who loves you, loved by a mother who loves you, and"},{"startTime":1770.76,"endTime":1773.9,"body":"so forth. And that's one of the other things that I love about your book,"},{"startTime":1775.51,"endTime":1778.75,"body":"is that it gives the reader the opportunity to not"},{"startTime":1778.79,"endTime":1782.61,"body":"just be more well informed,"},{"startTime":1783.03,"endTime":1786.862,"body":"which it will, but gives the reader the"},{"startTime":1786.886,"endTime":1790.702,"body":"opportunity first to be formed. It will give the"},{"startTime":1790.726,"endTime":1793.57,"body":"opportunity for the reader to first sense."},{"startTime":1794.31,"endTime":1797.406,"body":"And that's what I would invite our readers to really pay attention to when you're"},{"startTime":1797.438,"endTime":1801.144,"body":"reading. When our listeners are reading your book, I want to"},{"startTime":1801.152,"endTime":1804.904,"body":"invite them first to pay attention to what are you sensing, what are the"},{"startTime":1804.912,"endTime":1807.78,"body":"images that are coming to mind? Where is your imagination being taken?"},{"startTime":1808.8,"endTime":1811.768,"body":"And what is it like for you to imagine that when you're going to these"},{"startTime":1811.824,"endTime":1814.58,"body":"places that Michael is with you,"},{"startTime":1816.32,"endTime":1820.088,"body":"he's not talking to you from a distance, that you are with your Reader."},{"startTime":1820.264,"endTime":1823.816,"body":"And how does that make a difference? And how do you then, Michael,"},{"startTime":1824.008,"endTime":1827.512,"body":"who's with people in this book? How are you very much like"},{"startTime":1827.536,"endTime":1831.252,"body":"Jesus is in the Scriptures? How are you becoming"},{"startTime":1831.316,"endTime":1834.932,"body":"a vessel whereby. Which through the Holy Spirit, Jesus comes into the"},{"startTime":1834.956,"endTime":1838.612,"body":"room and is forming us in the"},{"startTime":1838.636,"endTime":1841.412,"body":"ways that we sense things? I realize I'm talking a lot here, but I just"},{"startTime":1841.436,"endTime":1844.88,"body":"can't, I can't. There is just so much in this"},{"startTime":1845.42,"endTime":1847.36,"body":"gift that you've given to us."},{"startTime":1849.74,"endTime":1853.412,"body":"Again, I keep saying this, but this is not unlike when we've sat at"},{"startTime":1853.436,"endTime":1857.042,"body":"breakfast or a meal or spent time together face to face. And the"},{"startTime":1857.066,"endTime":1860.802,"body":"conversation just kind of ping pongs where we never necessarily close any"},{"startTime":1860.826,"endTime":1863.91,"body":"of the loops, but it just keeps expanding."},{"startTime":1865.21,"endTime":1867.39,"body":"You know, as I wrote the book,"},{"startTime":1868.81,"endTime":1872.21,"body":"I wanted readers to feel embraced, to"},{"startTime":1872.25,"endTime":1876.066,"body":"really feel that sense of that I'm"},{"startTime":1876.098,"endTime":1879.01,"body":"here with them. And I did that by sharing a lot of my story, both"},{"startTime":1879.05,"endTime":1881.47,"body":"past and present, but also"},{"startTime":1883.43,"endTime":1887.118,"body":"to offer a kind of compassion that would almost feel"},{"startTime":1887.174,"endTime":1890.782,"body":"dangerous, like this is too much. Because God, of course, wants"},{"startTime":1890.846,"endTime":1894.462,"body":"to pull in the sails and rein things in. He"},{"startTime":1894.486,"endTime":1895.77,"body":"can't be that good."},{"startTime":1898.39,"endTime":1902.078,"body":"So thank you for just the words that you keep referring back to the book"},{"startTime":1902.134,"endTime":1903.73,"body":"as well as the conversation."},{"startTime":1906.07,"endTime":1907.61,"body":"Well, you're welcome. I."},{"startTime":1913.2,"endTime":1916.312,"body":"Let me just let me, let me, let me go. Let me continue and"},{"startTime":1916.416,"endTime":1917.06,"body":"say"},{"startTime":1920.96,"endTime":1923.34,"body":"throughout the arc of the biblical narrative,"},{"startTime":1924.72,"endTime":1928.504,"body":"even with Moses, Moses does not. I mean, he, you know, I think about Deuteronomy"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":1928.552,"endTime":1932.04,"body":"4 times in 1 chapter. Remember, remember, do not"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":1932.08,"endTime":1935.858,"body":"forget. But he doesn't"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":1935.874,"endTime":1939.602,"body":"just give us words. The Hebrews had the"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":1939.626,"endTime":1943.474,"body":"tabernacle. The Hebrews had their daily rhythms. The Hebrews"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":1943.522,"endTime":1946.946,"body":"had tangible material world"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":1947.098,"endTime":1949.75,"body":"actions and objects"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":1950.89,"endTime":1953.63,"body":"whose purpose it is to serve, to remind them"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":1954.73,"endTime":1958.498,"body":"of things. To remind them. Like God doesn't just say, oh,"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":1958.514,"endTime":1962.242,"body":"I'm with you. No. He comes in a pillar, a cloud and a"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":1962.266,"endTime":1965.602,"body":"fire. He's giving people a"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":1965.626,"endTime":1968.79,"body":"material world way of being embraced."},{"speaker":"8","startTime":1969.21,"endTime":1972.834,"body":"He gave me, he gave me a"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":1972.842,"endTime":1976.354,"body":"material world thing I can remember on that September"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":1976.402,"endTime":1978.83,"body":"day in 2019 with you."},{"speaker":"8","startTime":1981.21,"endTime":1984.994,"body":"And I think, like, again, I'm going to hold this up because you"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":1985.002,"endTime":1988.834,"body":"can see it like I'm holding this in my hand. The very paper like"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":1988.922,"endTime":1992.422,"body":"this itself have become an"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":1992.446,"endTime":1996.022,"body":"Ebenezer when to your"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":1996.046,"endTime":1998.534,"body":"readers, I would say when you, when you buy the book and you have the"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":1998.542,"endTime":2000.374,"body":"book, I want you to take care of the book. I want you to keep"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2000.382,"endTime":2003.99,"body":"the book clean. I want you to keep the book. Well, yes,"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2004.07,"endTime":2007.174,"body":"okay. If you've got to have a copy where you are dog earing it and"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2007.182,"endTime":2010.87,"body":"you were underlining it and all the things like, go at it and"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2010.91,"endTime":2014.742,"body":"then get yourself a second copy that you"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2014.766,"endTime":2018.616,"body":"can keep with you. And I'm like, I'm not even kidding."},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2018.808,"endTime":2021.512,"body":"I want you to have something that you can see. Like, you have it on"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2021.536,"endTime":2024.232,"body":"your car, on the seat of your car. You pick it up and you take"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2024.256,"endTime":2026.54,"body":"it with you in the office and you put it on your desk,"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2028.08,"endTime":2031.736,"body":"and you have a way for you to remember. I mean,"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2031.808,"endTime":2035.544,"body":"it is replete with this. And of course, it culminates for us as Jesus"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2035.592,"endTime":2038.14,"body":"followers. It culminates with the Eucharist"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2040.08,"endTime":2043.66,"body":"that we take in his body and his blood."},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2044.72,"endTime":2048.52,"body":"For many of us, certainly weekly, some of us every"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2048.56,"endTime":2051.848,"body":"day, I mean, multiple times a week, we are, because we so desperately"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2051.944,"endTime":2055.624,"body":"need a material world representation, a material"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2055.672,"endTime":2059.096,"body":"world reality that tells us that God is not messing"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2059.128,"endTime":2062.328,"body":"around. He is deadly."},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2062.504,"endTime":2066.184,"body":"Like, crucifixedly. I don't even know if that's a word."},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2066.232,"endTime":2069.952,"body":"We'd have to talk with Brad about that. Like, who's,"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2070.016,"endTime":2072.86,"body":"like, he is that serious about us."},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2075.4,"endTime":2079.152,"body":"And then with the resurrection, this sense that his, like this, this body and"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2079.176,"endTime":2083.02,"body":"blood become our life. And I,"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2083.64,"endTime":2087.408,"body":"I again, just am, I'm"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2087.424,"endTime":2090.768,"body":"struck with the beauty of the book, such that"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2090.904,"endTime":2094.752,"body":"even it can become this, Ebenezer. It can become this thing that"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2094.856,"endTime":2098.66,"body":"reminds us of the content that you're reading about it. This, your"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2098.7,"endTime":2102.404,"body":"second copy of the book, because you're just reading the"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2102.412,"endTime":2105.892,"body":"living daylights out of the other one and doing with it what you will"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2106.076,"endTime":2108.4,"body":"and then buy a third copy and give it to one of your friends."},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2110.62,"endTime":2114.404,"body":"I just, I feel a sense of honor as you're talking"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2114.452,"endTime":2117.56,"body":"about the book. And I feel gratitude."},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2117.9,"endTime":2120.64,"body":"And I also feel excitement, Kirk, because"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2122.22,"endTime":2126.02,"body":"as I said earlier, it took a lot to bring this book into"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2126.06,"endTime":2129.638,"body":"the world. And there's an excitement as people hear this"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2129.694,"endTime":2133.414,"body":"message. It's a message that I believe. The"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2133.502,"endTime":2137.25,"body":"clients that I work with, friends, family,"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2137.71,"endTime":2141.51,"body":"colleagues, I know that it's a message that is"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2141.55,"endTime":2145.126,"body":"not unique to mine. It's just my little weaving of,"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2145.198,"endTime":2148.95,"body":"of this gift. But I believe that we're all far"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2148.99,"endTime":2152.486,"body":"more desperate for loving embrace"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2152.598,"endTime":2156.15,"body":"and loving attachment than any of us know. So thank you for"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2156.27,"endTime":2159.89,"body":"today, sharing both your heart, your experience, your, your"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2159.93,"endTime":2163.73,"body":"medical knowledge, your psychological knowledge as a means"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2163.77,"endTime":2167.538,"body":"of speaking about the book. So I'm"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2167.554,"endTime":2170.91,"body":"blessed. Yeah. Okay. I, I just want to say one more thing,"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2172.73,"endTime":2176.466,"body":"and I, I, I want to affirm and just emphasize"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2176.498,"endTime":2179.698,"body":"something you just said. It's true that there"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2179.754,"endTime":2183.23,"body":"are, there are a number of people"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2184.29,"endTime":2188.042,"body":"that are in the world that are Writing about such things these days that are."},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2188.066,"endTime":2189.99,"body":"Talking about such things that are,"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2192.05,"endTime":2195.882,"body":"you know, kind of becoming known on their Instagram accounts because of"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2195.906,"endTime":2197.71,"body":"such things and so forth."},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2201.25,"endTime":2204.07,"body":"I am. I am."},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2204.85,"endTime":2208.666,"body":"I am inspired by the work of N.T. wright, in which"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2208.818,"endTime":2212.362,"body":"by. By a lot of what he says. But one of the pieces, one of"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2212.386,"endTime":2216.022,"body":"his. One. One of the things that he emphasizes, really captured my"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2216.046,"endTime":2219.718,"body":"imagination is this idea that the work that we"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2219.774,"endTime":2223.59,"body":"do right now as we are practicing for heaven, the work"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2223.63,"endTime":2226.57,"body":"that we do in and of itself"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2228.99,"endTime":2232.45,"body":"is in some beautifully mysterious way"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2233.63,"endTime":2237.222,"body":"going to be made manifest in the new heaven and"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2237.246,"endTime":2241.01,"body":"earth that's coming. We're not just doing work"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2241.63,"endTime":2245.17,"body":"right now that only applies to"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2245.47,"endTime":2249.318,"body":"this present age, but we are doing"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2249.374,"endTime":2253.222,"body":"work in the age to come that"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2253.246,"endTime":2256.886,"body":"has not yet arrived in its fullness. But when it"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2256.958,"endTime":2260.326,"body":"does, the works that we are doing now"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2260.478,"endTime":2264.31,"body":"are going to show up then and"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2264.35,"endTime":2267.702,"body":"will contribute in significant ways to the new heaven and"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2267.726,"endTime":2271.51,"body":"earth. And I'm. I'm. Okay."},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2272.41,"endTime":2276.178,"body":"I. I'm sorry. Can't stop. I just want to. I'm looking"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2276.234,"endTime":2279.87,"body":"at the COVID of your book, and I'm looking at these different,"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2281.69,"endTime":2284.818,"body":"you know, these. These different colors, these different"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2284.954,"endTime":2288.642,"body":"shards, these different portions of what could be a river, could be"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2288.666,"endTime":2292.45,"body":"a piece of art, whatever that is. And that"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2292.49,"endTime":2296.098,"body":"piece of artwork is only as beautiful as it is because of"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2296.154,"endTime":2298.19,"body":"each portion that is in it."},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2300.47,"endTime":2304.13,"body":"And this is your particular portion."},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2304.63,"endTime":2308.318,"body":"And yes, at the same time that there are other people who are saying, talking"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2308.334,"endTime":2311.422,"body":"about these things and so forth, your part is"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2311.526,"endTime":2314.93,"body":"exclusively and particularly necessary."},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2317.19,"endTime":2320.222,"body":"And the new heaven and new earth is not going to be what it could"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2320.246,"endTime":2321.69,"body":"be if you don't do this."},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2323.51,"endTime":2327.294,"body":"And that's one more thing I want to say to you, but also I want"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2327.302,"endTime":2330.538,"body":"to say to our listeners that each of our listeners, you"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2330.594,"endTime":2334.202,"body":"also have work to do through allowing"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2334.266,"endTime":2336.27,"body":"yourself first to be healed"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2337.89,"endTime":2340.51,"body":"and then become a channel of healing."},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2341.57,"endTime":2345.37,"body":"Amen. And that work, also the work"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2345.41,"endTime":2348.99,"body":"of your receiving, healing, and then providing healing,"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2350.13,"endTime":2353.31,"body":"becomes one of these portions"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2354.93,"endTime":2358.544,"body":"of this grand mosaic that"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2358.632,"endTime":2362.288,"body":"God is creating that's coming in its fullness."},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2362.464,"endTime":2364.22,"body":"And so that's also just"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2366.04,"endTime":2369.36,"body":"one more way in which I'm just so grateful that"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2369.4,"endTime":2371.78,"body":"this artifact"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2373.08,"endTime":2376.38,"body":"of beauty that is in the world. So"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2377.08,"endTime":2380.912,"body":"thank you not just for the book, but for the years, the decades, and in"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2380.936,"endTime":2384.512,"body":"particular, you mentioned four years. But I know it's been more than four years of"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2384.536,"endTime":2387.94,"body":"the hard work that has preceded what we find on these pages."},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2388.33,"endTime":2391.954,"body":"So thank you. I'm going to take that phrase"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2392.002,"endTime":2394.47,"body":"with me today. An artifact of beauty."},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2395.93,"endTime":2398.946,"body":"And I received that about the book, but it also makes me think that we're"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2398.978,"endTime":2402.69,"body":"all artifacts of beauty. Well,"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2402.73,"endTime":2406.402,"body":"it's a blessing to receive your words, your comments, and"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2406.426,"endTime":2410.274,"body":"it's always just great to be with you. I can't wait to see you."},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2410.362,"endTime":2414.012,"body":"If not before then, but next September, you and I and"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2414.036,"endTime":2417.756,"body":"Andy Colber and Allison Cook and Ian Cron will be"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2417.828,"endTime":2421.452,"body":"speaking about mental health and spiritual formation at the"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2421.476,"endTime":2425.292,"body":"apprentice gathering. And I'm so excited for their vision to"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2425.316,"endTime":2428.828,"body":"bring together people that are thinking in this kind of way."},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2428.964,"endTime":2432.732,"body":"So. Yeah. Yeah, indeed. All right. Until next time,"},{"speaker":"8","startTime":2432.756,"endTime":2435.1,"body":"my friend. All right, my brother. Indeed. My pleasure."}]}