{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.16,"endTime":3.368,"body":"Well, today's guest for a Things above conversation is Michael J."},{"startTime":3.424,"endTime":7.144,"body":"Cusick. Michael's the CEO and founder of Restoring the Soul,"},{"startTime":7.272,"endTime":11.016,"body":"an intensive counseling ministry in Denver, Colorado. He's a licensed"},{"startTime":11.048,"endTime":14.808,"body":"professional counselor, spiritual director, and former assistant professor"},{"startTime":14.824,"endTime":18.52,"body":"of counseling at Colorado Christian University. Michael's the author"},{"startTime":18.56,"endTime":22.392,"body":"of Surfing for God, and his articles have appeared in places such"},{"startTime":22.416,"endTime":25.736,"body":"as Relevant Magazine, Huffington Post, and Red Letter"},{"startTime":25.768,"endTime":29.602,"body":"Christians. He and his wife Julianne have two grown children and live"},{"startTime":29.626,"endTime":33.346,"body":"in Littleton, Colorado, not far from where I grew up."},{"startTime":33.498,"endTime":37.218,"body":"Michael has a brand new book out titled Sacred"},{"startTime":37.394,"endTime":40.866,"body":"Escaping Spiritual Exhaustion and Trusting in Divine Love. And it's"},{"startTime":40.898,"endTime":44.434,"body":"excellent. And I got him to be on the podcast. Michael,"},{"startTime":44.482,"endTime":48.242,"body":"welcome back to the Things above podcast. It's always a"},{"startTime":48.266,"endTime":51.63,"body":"delight to talk with you, Jim. Thank you. Well,"},{"startTime":52.25,"endTime":56.074,"body":"we are brothers from another mother. We have become close friends, soul"},{"startTime":56.122,"endTime":59.802,"body":"friends. And I love what you do. You've been on"},{"startTime":59.826,"endTime":63.562,"body":"this podcast before, but today I am excited. I"},{"startTime":63.586,"endTime":67.402,"body":"can't wait to talk about your new book, because I read it, it feels like"},{"startTime":67.426,"endTime":71.066,"body":"a year ago, and it's finally out. And"},{"startTime":71.218,"endTime":74.986,"body":"I'm going to start with a question, the same question I ask pretty"},{"startTime":75.018,"endTime":78.682,"body":"much every author that comes on this podcast. And that"},{"startTime":78.706,"endTime":82.548,"body":"is, why did you write this book? I wrote this"},{"startTime":82.604,"endTime":86.068,"body":"book because I needed it in my own life."},{"startTime":86.204,"endTime":90.052,"body":"And the book has really evolved and flowed out"},{"startTime":90.076,"endTime":93.508,"body":"of my own story, where every, every chapter"},{"startTime":93.604,"endTime":97.332,"body":"is, including my own story and narrative as"},{"startTime":97.356,"endTime":101.06,"body":"well, as well as composites of people that I've worked with over the years in"},{"startTime":101.1,"endTime":104.852,"body":"various capacities. But every chapter flows"},{"startTime":104.916,"endTime":107.6,"body":"out of part of my own journey of"},{"startTime":108.43,"endTime":112.038,"body":"facing and telling the truth about my own brokenness in my life,"},{"startTime":112.094,"endTime":115.65,"body":"which included abuse and addiction and"},{"startTime":116.51,"endTime":120.358,"body":"lying and deception and betrayal and lots"},{"startTime":120.374,"endTime":123.638,"body":"of, lots of personal suffering as a result of the suffering that I've caused others"},{"startTime":123.694,"endTime":127.03,"body":"and how we. How we live life with God in a way"},{"startTime":127.07,"endTime":130.534,"body":"where we can become whole people. Where I'm writing"},{"startTime":130.582,"endTime":134.214,"body":"basically about how I have moved toward wholeness in my own life with the"},{"startTime":134.222,"endTime":137.912,"body":"emphasis on moving toward wholeness as opposed to, you know, I"},{"startTime":137.936,"endTime":141.46,"body":"am a completely whole person. Because that's what heaven is for."},{"startTime":142.24,"endTime":145.704,"body":"Exactly. Exactly. Well, you know, your question or your answer to the"},{"startTime":145.712,"endTime":149.352,"body":"question is true of. I mean, I answer it the same way when"},{"startTime":149.376,"endTime":152.696,"body":"anybody asks me why I write. And I think it was"},{"startTime":152.848,"endTime":156.38,"body":"Frederick Buechner said, we write for ourselves, really. I mean, we write"},{"startTime":156.72,"endTime":159.8,"body":"the stuff that's meaningful for us. It's a part of our journey. And I think"},{"startTime":159.92,"endTime":163.688,"body":"the reason your book resonated so well with me was because"},{"startTime":163.744,"endTime":167.102,"body":"it's. It is your story, and it's so"},{"startTime":167.126,"endTime":170.446,"body":"authentic and it feels like this guy knows what he's talking"},{"startTime":170.478,"endTime":174.286,"body":"about. And so many great stories. You actually opened"},{"startTime":174.318,"endTime":178.03,"body":"the book with an amazing story about a visit to a"},{"startTime":178.07,"endTime":181.822,"body":"nunnery that had a big impact on your"},{"startTime":181.846,"endTime":185.47,"body":"life. I love that. But can you tell our listeners about that"},{"startTime":185.51,"endTime":189.23,"body":"story? My aunt, my aunt Ann, who was"},{"startTime":189.27,"endTime":193.028,"body":"my father's middle sister, my dad was the"},{"startTime":193.084,"endTime":196.708,"body":"youngest of seven Irish Catholics and I was the youngest of five"},{"startTime":196.844,"endTime":200.66,"body":"Irish Catholic kids in an alcoholic family. And I was 4 years"},{"startTime":200.7,"endTime":204.5,"body":"old and went to Carmel of the Holy Family, which is where"},{"startTime":204.54,"endTime":208.372,"body":"that aunt was a cloistered Carmelite nun. And for those that don't know,"},{"startTime":208.396,"endTime":211.572,"body":"the Carmelites are the same order that Teresa of"},{"startTime":211.596,"endTime":215.412,"body":"Avila and John of the Cross and Therese of Lesoux as well"},{"startTime":215.436,"endTime":219.232,"body":"as countless others. That's the Holy Order that they belong"},{"startTime":219.296,"endTime":222.8,"body":"to. And the Carmelites cloistered themselves away from the"},{"startTime":222.84,"endTime":226.576,"body":"world usually behind a wall. And inside"},{"startTime":226.608,"endTime":230.432,"body":"of that wall was a monastery. And they could not"},{"startTime":230.456,"endTime":233.872,"body":"have contact with the public. And they lived behind what was called a"},{"startTime":233.896,"endTime":237.28,"body":"grill. And that grill, not unlike your grill in your"},{"startTime":237.32,"endTime":241.12,"body":"backyard, were bars that were crosshatched. And we would"},{"startTime":241.16,"endTime":244.832,"body":"visit on, you know, monthly or sometimes several times a year, my aunt and"},{"startTime":244.856,"endTime":248.5,"body":"the seven of us would traipse over there. And as"},{"startTime":248.68,"endTime":252.48,"body":"I kind of played on the floor with my next older sibling, my sister,"},{"startTime":252.9,"endTime":256.46,"body":"and one day as the adults were talking, my brother got this"},{"startTime":256.5,"endTime":259.852,"body":"harebrained idea, as he always was getting to lift me"},{"startTime":259.876,"endTime":263.42,"body":"up and put me into this cabinet in the corner of the"},{"startTime":263.46,"endTime":267.18,"body":"room. And you have to understand that there was a counter,"},{"startTime":267.26,"endTime":271.052,"body":"but in the middle of that counter was this big cross"},{"startTime":271.116,"endTime":274.812,"body":"hatched grill, these bars. And on one side sat the nuns. And they"},{"startTime":274.836,"endTime":278.31,"body":"could put their fingers or hands through this grill, but. But they couldn't have any"},{"startTime":278.35,"endTime":281.622,"body":"other contact. They couldn't hug, they couldn't come out. And on the other side were"},{"startTime":281.646,"endTime":285.302,"body":"the visitors in what was called the parlor. And in this cabinet that my"},{"startTime":285.326,"endTime":288.87,"body":"brother lifted me up and put me into, there was a lazy Susan that would"},{"startTime":288.91,"endTime":292.374,"body":"spin around and the nuns could pass food back and forth and sometimes"},{"startTime":292.422,"endTime":296.134,"body":"gifts. And my brother closed the doors to this cabinet"},{"startTime":296.182,"endTime":299.942,"body":"and spun me around and spun me around and I was"},{"startTime":299.966,"endTime":303.814,"body":"terrified. I never have liked spinning. I've never liked rides at"},{"startTime":303.822,"endTime":307.414,"body":"the amusement park. And I get nauseous very easy. So I remember"},{"startTime":307.462,"endTime":310.978,"body":"this very acutely. I'm terrified I'm going to throw up"},{"startTime":311.034,"endTime":314.802,"body":"and not knowing if I'm going to get in trouble. And suddenly the doors"},{"startTime":314.866,"endTime":318.002,"body":"opened and thought my brother would be there to take me Out. And it was"},{"startTime":318.026,"endTime":321.682,"body":"sister Ann and 15 or 16 other cloistered nuns on the"},{"startTime":321.706,"endTime":325.31,"body":"other side. And I'm on the wrong side of the grill, if you will."},{"startTime":325.85,"endTime":329.522,"body":"And what happened, rather than the bishop or a"},{"startTime":329.546,"endTime":332.658,"body":"priest or even the pope walk in with his nose down on the end, his"},{"startTime":332.714,"endTime":336.546,"body":"glasses down on the end of his nose, like a. Like an English schoolmaster"},{"startTime":336.578,"endTime":340.304,"body":"that was deeply disappointed with me because I really thought I"},{"startTime":340.312,"endTime":344.08,"body":"was in trouble. Sister Anne embraced me and squeezed me and"},{"startTime":344.12,"endTime":347.808,"body":"ran her fingers through my hair. And the other nuns came along and probably pinched"},{"startTime":347.824,"endTime":351.472,"body":"my cheeks and oohed and odd. And I had to check"},{"startTime":351.536,"endTime":355.072,"body":"once whether this actually happened because it felt too good to be"},{"startTime":355.096,"endTime":358.4,"body":"true. But on the wrong side of the grill, these"},{"startTime":358.44,"endTime":362.272,"body":"nuns pushed some chairs out of the way, and they began to"},{"startTime":362.456,"endTime":365.89,"body":"sing and dance ring around the Rosie with me."},{"startTime":366.19,"endTime":369.846,"body":"And that moment became a template for my entire life and"},{"startTime":369.918,"endTime":373.67,"body":"really for my spiritual journey. And that is that whether through my own fault or"},{"startTime":373.71,"endTime":377.302,"body":"someone else's, I find myself spinning and disoriented"},{"startTime":377.366,"endTime":380.902,"body":"and not feeling very good and. And. And. And"},{"startTime":381.086,"endTime":384.822,"body":"that something's really wrong and I'm going to get in trouble. And then"},{"startTime":384.846,"endTime":388.47,"body":"the spinning stops, and there's this question and even an expectation about"},{"startTime":388.51,"endTime":391.582,"body":"what's going to happen. But then there's a surprise. And out of that"},{"startTime":391.606,"endTime":394.462,"body":"disorientation, there's what Walter Brueggemann called a"},{"startTime":394.486,"endTime":398.062,"body":"reorientation. And I was embraced by love. And"},{"startTime":398.166,"endTime":401.982,"body":"it was this moment during the very same time when"},{"startTime":402.006,"endTime":405.822,"body":"at home, there was alcoholism, there was a lot of"},{"startTime":405.846,"endTime":409.63,"body":"dysfunction, and an uncle was sexually abusing me during that"},{"startTime":409.67,"endTime":413.358,"body":"time. And so that story contrasts what was happening with"},{"startTime":413.414,"endTime":416.918,"body":"the trauma, the abuse and the brokenness, and that"},{"startTime":416.974,"endTime":420.29,"body":"moment of being embraced by love. And"},{"startTime":421.07,"endTime":424.678,"body":"the phrase that's all throughout the book is, love has"},{"startTime":424.734,"endTime":428.342,"body":"you, love has you. And it was in that moment, despite all the"},{"startTime":428.366,"endTime":431.766,"body":"trauma, despite all my addictions, that somewhere deep inside,"},{"startTime":431.958,"endTime":435.09,"body":"there was this deep sense that love had me."},{"startTime":435.79,"endTime":439.49,"body":"And when I was writing the book, I actually called up one of the few"},{"startTime":439.79,"endTime":443.622,"body":"living nuns, Sister Bernadette, and I got her on the phone and I"},{"startTime":443.646,"endTime":446.802,"body":"said, did this really happen? She said, oh, yeah. I actually used to do that"},{"startTime":446.826,"endTime":450.242,"body":"with my nieces and nephews from time to time. So the whole idea of the"},{"startTime":450.266,"endTime":453.71,"body":"cloister, I guess, was a relative thing, depending on"},{"startTime":454.57,"endTime":457.63,"body":"who could lift you up and whether you could fit into the grill or not."},{"startTime":458.97,"endTime":462.77,"body":"I love that story on so many levels. I mean, you"},{"startTime":462.81,"endTime":466.514,"body":"even write. You write this in the book. Looking back, I can interpret"},{"startTime":466.562,"endTime":470.274,"body":"my whole life through that Carmel moment. That's A"},{"startTime":470.282,"endTime":474.09,"body":"big statement to interpret your whole life through it. Say more"},{"startTime":474.13,"endTime":477.71,"body":"about that. Well, first of all, let me tell on myself."},{"startTime":478.13,"endTime":481.722,"body":"You introduced me as a therapist and spiritual director and CEO and all"},{"startTime":481.746,"endTime":485.386,"body":"that. And this has actually happened at your conference a couple times where I'm teaching."},{"startTime":485.418,"endTime":488.154,"body":"And people will come up and say, gee, I'm curious. Where did you get your"},{"startTime":488.162,"endTime":492.01,"body":"spiritual direction training? And I've never actually had formal training."},{"startTime":492.09,"endTime":495.914,"body":"I didn't go to Loyola, or I didn't go to the School of Kingdom Living"},{"startTime":495.962,"endTime":499.562,"body":"or even Friends and get a certificate in formation. But I"},{"startTime":499.586,"endTime":502.81,"body":"started going to this monastery as a young boy"},{"startTime":502.97,"endTime":506.774,"body":"and interacted deeply with the nuns. And even in"},{"startTime":506.942,"endTime":510.454,"body":"high school, I started taking some of the literature that was in the lobby with"},{"startTime":510.462,"endTime":514.182,"body":"the beads that they made and started reading a book on prayer by"},{"startTime":514.206,"endTime":518.038,"body":"Thomas Merton in high school. And that was even before I was a Christian."},{"startTime":518.134,"endTime":521.622,"body":"So something was lodged deep inside of me. And then I, you know, I was"},{"startTime":521.646,"endTime":525.446,"body":"baptized and confirmed in the Catholic tradition. It's just always been inside"},{"startTime":525.478,"endTime":528.61,"body":"of me, and I've. I've picked it up along the way."},{"startTime":529.79,"endTime":533.502,"body":"And so I was deeply formed, not just in"},{"startTime":533.526,"endTime":537.262,"body":"that moment, but in many of the journeys going over there. And then after I"},{"startTime":537.286,"endTime":540.91,"body":"did become a Christian, the nuns would invite me from time to time to play"},{"startTime":540.95,"endTime":544.766,"body":"guitar when the grill was no longer there and the public could access the nuns."},{"startTime":544.798,"endTime":547.71,"body":"And, you know, in the, in the old days, centuries ago, they would not even"},{"startTime":547.75,"endTime":551.15,"body":"have a grill between the visitors and the nuns, but in the, in"},{"startTime":551.19,"endTime":554.462,"body":"the chapel or where the, The Mass was"},{"startTime":554.486,"endTime":558.012,"body":"celebrated, the nuns would be behind a grill there, singing."},{"startTime":558.166,"endTime":561.936,"body":"So, you know, even in the Sound of Music, they're not Carmelites, but the nuns"},{"startTime":561.968,"endTime":565.7,"body":"are behind this grill. And the, you know, the beautiful voices are echoing."},{"startTime":566.04,"endTime":569.776,"body":"And so it was really a big part of my formation, and it immersed"},{"startTime":569.808,"endTime":573.024,"body":"me into something that I call it"},{"startTime":573.192,"endTime":577.04,"body":"mysticism in my bones, where I've always. I've always found"},{"startTime":577.08,"endTime":580.576,"body":"a home in that liturgical, mystical,"},{"startTime":580.768,"endTime":584.512,"body":"reverent tradition around liturgy. And of course, I've gone in and out"},{"startTime":584.536,"endTime":588.304,"body":"of different traditions, but the thing that, that,"},{"startTime":588.392,"endTime":591.968,"body":"that most represented the rest of my journey was this."},{"startTime":592.024,"endTime":595.36,"body":"This idea of, again, I'll quote Walter Brueggemann in his"},{"startTime":595.4,"endTime":598.848,"body":"book the Psalms, he has a couple of books on the Psalms where he introduces"},{"startTime":598.864,"endTime":602.176,"body":"this, that. That we're living life one moment and. And we're"},{"startTime":602.208,"endTime":605.824,"body":"oriented and everything's going okay. And then boom, something happens."},{"startTime":605.872,"endTime":609.62,"body":"Grief, loss, pain, failure, suffering, sickness,"},{"startTime":610.76,"endTime":614.48,"body":"you know, dark night of the soul, internally malaise, depression,"},{"startTime":614.56,"endTime":618.382,"body":"and we're disoriented, We're. We're in the dark, we're spinning, and then"},{"startTime":618.406,"endTime":621.982,"body":"there's reorientation. And Brueggeman builds the"},{"startTime":622.086,"endTime":625.854,"body":"point that this was the teaching of Jesus, this was the life of Jesus."},{"startTime":625.902,"endTime":629.278,"body":"And I like to call this the rhythm of the kingdom,"},{"startTime":629.454,"endTime":632.926,"body":"that this is a pattern that goes around and around and around. And it's"},{"startTime":632.958,"endTime":636.75,"body":"God's way of inviting us again"},{"startTime":636.79,"endTime":640.27,"body":"and again and again in those places of disorientation to"},{"startTime":640.31,"endTime":644.15,"body":"reconsider new narratives, as you would say, a new way"},{"startTime":644.19,"endTime":647.862,"body":"of doing life. And it's really a time where our imagination"},{"startTime":648.006,"endTime":651.654,"body":"begins to flourish. A couple of other words for the same pattern."},{"startTime":651.702,"endTime":655.35,"body":"Richard Rohr calls it order, disorder, reorder. My"},{"startTime":655.39,"endTime":659.094,"body":"pastor, Larry Renaud at a former church called it"},{"startTime":659.262,"endTime":662.982,"body":"thrive, dive, revive. So whatever language people want to"},{"startTime":663.006,"endTime":666.39,"body":"borrow there, if we have that. If we have that"},{"startTime":666.43,"endTime":670.022,"body":"orientation, it can be really helpful to realize that we're not regressing or"},{"startTime":670.046,"endTime":673.85,"body":"backsliding. We're sometimes in a growth spurt, where sometimes in a way"},{"startTime":673.89,"endTime":677.658,"body":"where just like a. A person who enters puberty and, you know, their."},{"startTime":677.714,"endTime":681.242,"body":"Their head is bigger than the rest of their body or their legs are longer."},{"startTime":681.386,"endTime":684.922,"body":"We. We're in an unfamiliar space, what. What we often call a"},{"startTime":684.946,"endTime":688.522,"body":"liminal space. And it's in that space where there's always"},{"startTime":688.626,"endTime":691.898,"body":"something new being birthed. There's always new life coming forth. There's always"},{"startTime":691.954,"endTime":695.802,"body":"resurrection that happens after the. The crucifixion, if you"},{"startTime":695.826,"endTime":699.652,"body":"will. Yeah. And James Loder would talk about"},{"startTime":699.676,"endTime":701.76,"body":"the void. We enter into the void, and then"},{"startTime":703.66,"endTime":706.948,"body":"we're reorienting. Right. To use that language."},{"startTime":707.124,"endTime":710.0,"body":"And it sounds like the experience that you had"},{"startTime":710.46,"endTime":713.68,"body":"was, as you put it, love had you"},{"startTime":714.06,"endTime":717.86,"body":"in that moment. That powerful experience that"},{"startTime":717.9,"endTime":721.54,"body":"got into your bones was. Okay, there is something"},{"startTime":721.58,"endTime":724.692,"body":"else. On the surface, my family"},{"startTime":724.796,"endTime":727.09,"body":"experience is"},{"startTime":727.87,"endTime":731.366,"body":"traumatic. But somewhere, love has me."},{"startTime":731.518,"endTime":734.934,"body":"And I want to just segue into attachment"},{"startTime":734.982,"endTime":738.774,"body":"theory because your book really deals."},{"startTime":738.822,"endTime":742.662,"body":"It's called Sacred Attachment. Right. You're dealing with that. But let's do just"},{"startTime":742.686,"endTime":746.102,"body":"a quick little primer or Introduction to Attachment"},{"startTime":746.166,"endTime":749.83,"body":"Theory, which I'll say what I think it is, and then"},{"startTime":749.87,"endTime":753.358,"body":"you tell me where I'm wrong. How about that? You bet. Okay."},{"startTime":753.534,"endTime":756.73,"body":"My understanding is it's a psychological framework that"},{"startTime":757.11,"endTime":760.494,"body":"basically looks at the importance of our early emotional bonds"},{"startTime":760.542,"endTime":764.29,"body":"between infants, children, and their caregivers."},{"startTime":764.79,"endTime":768.542,"body":"And it centers on these four key words that's in your book"},{"startTime":768.566,"endTime":771.95,"body":"a lot. Seen, safe, seen, soothed, safe, and"},{"startTime":771.99,"endTime":775.25,"body":"secure. S. Words that makes it easy to remember."},{"startTime":776.23,"endTime":780.03,"body":"But am I close with that? If not, what is attachment theory?"},{"startTime":780.19,"endTime":783.31,"body":"Yeah, well, that's a really Good start and thanks for linking it to those four"},{"startTime":783.35,"endTime":786.702,"body":"S's of scene. Soothe. Safe, Secure. I always try to differentiate"},{"startTime":786.766,"endTime":790.302,"body":"between what's often popular on social media"},{"startTime":790.406,"endTime":794.11,"body":"and podcasts between attachment style"},{"startTime":794.27,"endTime":798.094,"body":"and attachment as a need. Attachment"},{"startTime":798.142,"endTime":801.918,"body":"style is how we show up in the world to get our needs for"},{"startTime":801.974,"endTime":805.71,"body":"closeness, connection and intimacy met. And of course"},{"startTime":805.75,"endTime":809.422,"body":"there's secure attachment. Psychologists say that about 60%"},{"startTime":809.526,"endTime":813.194,"body":"of people in America have a secure attachment. Most therapists"},{"startTime":813.242,"endTime":817.082,"body":"will tell you that it's more like 60% that don't have a"},{"startTime":817.106,"endTime":820.47,"body":"secure attachment. Especially people born as digital"},{"startTime":820.85,"endTime":824.314,"body":"natives who have grown up with social media. And"},{"startTime":824.482,"endTime":828.282,"body":"this may sound like a harsh thing, but with parents who are preoccupied with"},{"startTime":828.306,"endTime":832.122,"body":"social media and not able to attend to or attune to"},{"startTime":832.146,"endTime":835.27,"body":"their, to their kids in the way that they"},{"startTime":835.97,"endTime":839.64,"body":"might have in a previous generation. And that's not to say that"},{"startTime":839.68,"endTime":843.4,"body":"previous generations didn't wrestle with things whether it was, you know, coming"},{"startTime":843.44,"endTime":847.048,"body":"back from the war and building a life because there was no perfect"},{"startTime":847.144,"endTime":850.536,"body":"golden age. But that attachment style is secure"},{"startTime":850.568,"endTime":854.072,"body":"attachment. And then people speak of avoidant attachment, anxious"},{"startTime":854.136,"endTime":857.368,"body":"attachment, or ambivalent attachment, where there's a mixture of both."},{"startTime":857.424,"endTime":861.08,"body":"And I won't go into detail on those unless you want me to."},{"startTime":861.2,"endTime":864.802,"body":"Then there's the attachment need. And that's a God"},{"startTime":864.866,"endTime":868.21,"body":"given process that from"},{"startTime":868.33,"endTime":872.018,"body":"birth onward. And in many ways it's actually prenatal as well."},{"startTime":872.074,"endTime":875.714,"body":"But from infancy, all through life, from womb"},{"startTime":875.762,"endTime":879.426,"body":"to tomb, it's a need to be connected"},{"startTime":879.538,"endTime":883.074,"body":"to others so that our brain and our nervous system"},{"startTime":883.162,"endTime":886.994,"body":"can regulate and organize itself. And in the"},{"startTime":887.002,"endTime":890.544,"body":"case of the infant, the infant is vulnerable"},{"startTime":890.682,"endTime":894.436,"body":"and dependent and that infant comes into the world. And Kurt"},{"startTime":894.468,"endTime":897.94,"body":"Thompson taught me this, that only about 50 to"},{"startTime":897.98,"endTime":901.46,"body":"60% of the neurons in that infant's brain are"},{"startTime":901.5,"endTime":905.204,"body":"online. And there's about 50 billion neurons"},{"startTime":905.332,"endTime":909.06,"body":"in a child's brain, maybe more in"},{"startTime":909.1,"endTime":912.852,"body":"adulthood. But those imagine, you know, firing up"},{"startTime":912.876,"endTime":916.678,"body":"your laptop and only half the screen comes on and"},{"startTime":916.734,"endTime":920.182,"body":"there's a little window that comes up saying only half the hard drive is"},{"startTime":920.206,"endTime":923.83,"body":"working. And how the rest of those neurons come"},{"startTime":923.87,"endTime":927.542,"body":"online is through the attunement of the parent or"},{"startTime":927.566,"endTime":931.254,"body":"caregiver, and especially eye contact. So the"},{"startTime":931.262,"endTime":935.03,"body":"first of the four S's of seeing is that as the caregiver makes"},{"startTime":935.07,"endTime":938.886,"body":"eye contact and anybody who's been a parent of a newborn"},{"startTime":938.918,"endTime":942.47,"body":"or held a newborn, you know, all you want to do is look at their"},{"startTime":942.51,"endTime":946.134,"body":"face. Nobody stares at the infant's feet and says, oh, what? You know,"},{"startTime":946.142,"endTime":949.642,"body":"what, what cute little feet. We might say that and make up, you know,"},{"startTime":949.666,"endTime":952.87,"body":"nicknames for their little piggies or something like that. But"},{"startTime":953.73,"endTime":957.402,"body":"as the adult makes eye contact over and over and over"},{"startTime":957.426,"endTime":961.178,"body":"again and therefore attunes, you can imagine bing, bing, bing,"},{"startTime":961.194,"endTime":964.794,"body":"bing, bing, bing, bing, bing times millions and billions, where over,"},{"startTime":964.882,"endTime":967.99,"body":"especially in the first four years, those neurons come online"},{"startTime":968.61,"endTime":972.362,"body":"and that infant and toddler and preschooler"},{"startTime":972.426,"endTime":976.266,"body":"begins to be able to regulate themselves, to regulate their nervous"},{"startTime":976.298,"endTime":979.902,"body":"system so that when stress, distress, physical pain"},{"startTime":979.966,"endTime":983.774,"body":"is there, number one, in the presence of another"},{"startTime":983.942,"endTime":987.742,"body":"being engaged with or cared for by a"},{"startTime":987.766,"endTime":991.534,"body":"person who is attuned to them to meet their needs, they can go"},{"startTime":991.622,"endTime":995.262,"body":"ah. And exhale and feel peace and"},{"startTime":995.366,"endTime":998.958,"body":"calm. And then as they"},{"startTime":999.014,"endTime":1002.734,"body":"are regulating, they're able to organize themselves in the world."},{"startTime":1002.822,"endTime":1006.302,"body":"Their executive functioning aspects of their left brain can come"},{"startTime":1006.326,"endTime":1009.93,"body":"online because that regulation is both"},{"startTime":1010.31,"endTime":1014.046,"body":"a function of the whole central nervous system and the right brain, which is"},{"startTime":1014.118,"endTime":1017.086,"body":"where there's the capacity for receptivity, for"},{"startTime":1017.158,"endTime":1020.862,"body":"attachment, for a lot of our emotion."},{"startTime":1021.006,"endTime":1024.814,"body":"And as that's there and we begin to regulate, then we can show up in"},{"startTime":1024.822,"endTime":1028.526,"body":"the world and have a sense of efficacy and"},{"startTime":1028.678,"endTime":1032.03,"body":"self empowerment and agency versus being"},{"startTime":1032.07,"endTime":1035.902,"body":"victims to the external world. Psychologists have called that for a"},{"startTime":1035.926,"endTime":1039.752,"body":"long time an internal locus of control versus an external. The"},{"startTime":1039.776,"endTime":1043.22,"body":"external is the world acts on me and"},{"startTime":1043.6,"endTime":1047.4,"body":"I have very little power in. An internal locus of control is I"},{"startTime":1047.44,"endTime":1050.856,"body":"can make choices and show up and act upon the world. And there's a cause"},{"startTime":1050.888,"endTime":1054.408,"body":"and effect and good things happen as a result of that."},{"startTime":1054.544,"endTime":1057.864,"body":"So obviously there's huge implications of this in spiritual"},{"startTime":1057.912,"endTime":1061.672,"body":"formation. And the thesis of my book is to the degree that we"},{"startTime":1061.696,"endTime":1065.432,"body":"did or did not have a healthy attachment,"},{"startTime":1065.496,"endTime":1069.0,"body":"to the degree that we were seen soothed safe and secure, we'll never go any"},{"startTime":1069.04,"endTime":1071.72,"body":"farther than that in relationship with God."},{"startTime":1072.94,"endTime":1076.756,"body":"So it transfers right on to that. Yes, it transfers"},{"startTime":1076.788,"endTime":1080.004,"body":"on to God. And some people will say, well, what if I have an intimate"},{"startTime":1080.052,"endTime":1083.476,"body":"relationship with God, but I struggle with other people? I'd say that's fine"},{"startTime":1083.588,"endTime":1087.428,"body":"because, you know, there's no two people that are alike. And. And some people will"},{"startTime":1087.484,"endTime":1090.08,"body":"need to find that sense of"},{"startTime":1091.18,"endTime":1094.692,"body":"security and safety and being known"},{"startTime":1094.876,"endTime":1098.65,"body":"with God first and oftentimes in"},{"startTime":1098.69,"endTime":1101.85,"body":"solitude and silence and through reading"},{"startTime":1101.93,"endTime":1105.642,"body":"and contemplation. And other people will"},{"startTime":1105.666,"endTime":1109.45,"body":"need to do that in the context of people on the horizontal level,"},{"startTime":1109.49,"endTime":1113.098,"body":"their closest relationships, friendships, etc. More often than not,"},{"startTime":1113.234,"endTime":1116.602,"body":"we start on the horizontal level with people and then that"},{"startTime":1116.626,"endTime":1120.346,"body":"transfers over to God. You know, again, Kurt"},{"startTime":1120.378,"endTime":1124.222,"body":"Thompson says in Anatomy of the Soul that God inherits all the"},{"startTime":1124.246,"endTime":1127.822,"body":"same neural networks that are at play in our"},{"startTime":1127.846,"endTime":1131.662,"body":"closest relationships. The way that our buttons get pushed, the ways that"},{"startTime":1131.686,"endTime":1135.422,"body":"we get activated, the way that we deal with the restlessness inside of"},{"startTime":1135.446,"endTime":1138.91,"body":"us and how that affects our spouse or"},{"startTime":1138.95,"endTime":1142.782,"body":"partner, if we're in a significant relationship, our siblings,"},{"startTime":1142.846,"endTime":1146.33,"body":"our family of origin, our friends and co workers."},{"startTime":1146.63,"endTime":1150.35,"body":"Yeah. Well, I can imagine someone listening right now,"},{"startTime":1150.39,"endTime":1154.004,"body":"maybe thinking about their own experience, and maybe"},{"startTime":1154.132,"endTime":1157.6,"body":"their parents were distant or judgmental or"},{"startTime":1158.3,"endTime":1162.036,"body":"preoccupied somehow. Many people,"},{"startTime":1162.188,"endTime":1165.6,"body":"I mean, our parents are human beings, right? Even the best of them."},{"startTime":1165.9,"endTime":1169.636,"body":"They're living in their own brokenness and so forth. But I imagine"},{"startTime":1169.668,"endTime":1172.76,"body":"some listeners may be thinking, okay, so, Michael,"},{"startTime":1174.3,"endTime":1177.956,"body":"if my early experiences weren't great, I didn't feel seen"},{"startTime":1178.028,"endTime":1180.7,"body":"or soothed or safe and secure."},{"startTime":1182.0,"endTime":1185.64,"body":"Am I hopeless? I mean, or is there"},{"startTime":1185.68,"endTime":1189.384,"body":"hope for. Oh, there is. There is so much hope, you know, and the"},{"startTime":1189.392,"endTime":1192.792,"body":"whole reason I wrote this book, Jim, is, as you well know, is"},{"startTime":1192.976,"endTime":1196.504,"body":"I have a master's in counseling psychology, a master's in biblical"},{"startTime":1196.552,"endTime":1200.392,"body":"counseling, and I've been a licensed professional counselor. I'm a"},{"startTime":1200.416,"endTime":1204.04,"body":"certified clinical trauma professional. But my"},{"startTime":1204.08,"endTime":1207.628,"body":"passion is. Is not healing trauma"},{"startTime":1207.724,"endTime":1211.484,"body":"or, you know, 20 years ago, helping people overcome sex addiction. That's a"},{"startTime":1211.492,"endTime":1215.26,"body":"lot of what I've done, and that's important. But my passion is"},{"startTime":1215.3,"endTime":1219.052,"body":"to help people heal their image of God and to experience the"},{"startTime":1219.076,"endTime":1222.604,"body":"depths of his love so that we can live securely"},{"startTime":1222.652,"endTime":1226.3,"body":"attached and then overflow into the world to"},{"startTime":1226.42,"endTime":1230.204,"body":"make the kingdom of God more real. That's. That's my passion. You know,"},{"startTime":1230.212,"endTime":1233.932,"body":"I talk about brokenness in people's lives because it's an excuse to talk about who"},{"startTime":1233.956,"endTime":1237.768,"body":"God really is as he's revealed in Jesus. So there's so much hope,"},{"startTime":1237.824,"endTime":1241.592,"body":"you know, in Jesus first sermon, his public sermon. In Luke chapter four,"},{"startTime":1241.616,"endTime":1245.432,"body":"he's quoting Isaiah 61, where he says, the spirit of the sovereign Lord is"},{"startTime":1245.456,"endTime":1249.272,"body":"on me. He's anointed me to preach good news to the poor. And then"},{"startTime":1249.456,"endTime":1253.304,"body":"in. In Luke, we don't see these words, but it's suggested by many scholars"},{"speaker":"that he actually read all of Isaiah 60","startTime":1253.352,"endTime":1256.712,"body":"1."},{"speaker":"that he actually read all of Isaiah 60","startTime":1256.896,"endTime":1260.168,"body":"He has sent me to bind up broken hearts, to set"},{"speaker":"that he actually read all of Isaiah 60","startTime":1260.224,"endTime":1262.38,"body":"captives free, to exchange"},{"speaker":"that he actually read all of Isaiah 60","startTime":1263.72,"endTime":1267.472,"body":"beauty for ashes, and oil, of gladness, for mourning and praise"},{"speaker":"that he actually read all of Isaiah 60","startTime":1267.536,"endTime":1271.088,"body":"for lament. So there is so much hope, and that that"},{"speaker":"that he actually read all of Isaiah 60","startTime":1271.144,"endTime":1274.944,"body":"hope begins by telling the truth. You know, anybody listening to"},{"speaker":"that he actually read all of Isaiah 60","startTime":1274.952,"endTime":1278.592,"body":"this podcast that's been around Christianity or the church a while will know John"},{"speaker":"that he actually read all of Isaiah 60","startTime":1278.696,"endTime":1282.22,"body":"8, you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."},{"speaker":"that he actually read all of Isaiah 60","startTime":1282.52,"endTime":1286.272,"body":"For so long, my life was getting more and more of the"},{"speaker":"that he actually read all of Isaiah 60","startTime":1286.296,"endTime":1290.112,"body":"truth, which I defined exclusively as the Bible and scripture. If I get more"},{"speaker":"that he actually read all of Isaiah 60","startTime":1290.136,"endTime":1293.57,"body":"of that inside of me, then I'll be free from my sex"},{"speaker":"that he actually read all of Isaiah 60","startTime":1293.61,"endTime":1297.154,"body":"addiction and my porn addiction and my drinking and alcohol"},{"speaker":"that he actually read all of Isaiah 60","startTime":1297.202,"endTime":1300.882,"body":"abuse, my food issues. Just need more truth,"},{"speaker":"that he actually read all of Isaiah 60","startTime":1300.946,"endTime":1304.69,"body":"need more sermons. And yet inclusive in truth is my"},{"speaker":"that he actually read all of Isaiah 60","startTime":1304.73,"endTime":1308.418,"body":"truth. What's my truth? Well, my truth is I was a"},{"speaker":"that he actually read all of Isaiah 60","startTime":1308.474,"endTime":1311.586,"body":"profoundly broken, shame covered,"},{"speaker":"that he actually read all of Isaiah 60","startTime":1311.778,"endTime":1314.898,"body":"internally anxious person living"},{"speaker":"that he actually read all of Isaiah 60","startTime":1315.074,"endTime":1318.72,"body":"with a mask. And that mask was that that my life"},{"speaker":"that he actually read all of Isaiah 60","startTime":1318.76,"endTime":1322.256,"body":"was all together and that I was a funny relational person. And I'm somebody"},{"speaker":"that he actually read all of Isaiah 60","startTime":1322.288,"endTime":1325.072,"body":"likable and I'm going to get you to like me if you don't like me."},{"speaker":"that he actually read all of Isaiah 60","startTime":1325.096,"endTime":1328.32,"body":"But inside there was this person that hated"},{"speaker":"that he actually read all of Isaiah 60","startTime":1328.4,"endTime":1332.128,"body":"himself and this person that was traumatized and. And"},{"speaker":"that he actually read all of Isaiah 60","startTime":1332.184,"endTime":1336.032,"body":"so again, what I've written in the book and so much of what we"},{"speaker":"that he actually read all of Isaiah 60","startTime":1336.056,"endTime":1339.872,"body":"do here at Restoring the Soul comes out of my journey and our journey for"},{"speaker":"that he actually read all of Isaiah 60","startTime":1339.896,"endTime":1342.22,"body":"each of us. And you know, the hope is"},{"speaker":"that he actually read all of Isaiah 60","startTime":1343.32,"endTime":1346.916,"body":"that we can be in that truth, we can be present"},{"speaker":"that he actually read all of Isaiah 60","startTime":1346.988,"endTime":1350.628,"body":"to that truth, we can tell the truth about ourselves inside and"},{"speaker":"that he actually read all of Isaiah 60","startTime":1350.684,"endTime":1354.34,"body":"our story because we are welcomed and because we have"},{"speaker":"that he actually read all of Isaiah 60","startTime":1354.38,"endTime":1358.052,"body":"permission to be broken. And that God"},{"speaker":"that he actually read all of Isaiah 60","startTime":1358.196,"endTime":1361.892,"body":"revealed in Jesus loves to inhabit that"},{"speaker":"that he actually read all of Isaiah 60","startTime":1361.916,"endTime":1365.668,"body":"which is unfavorable, that which is full"},{"speaker":"that he actually read all of Isaiah 60","startTime":1365.724,"endTime":1369.46,"body":"of failure and weakness and vulnerability and pain and"},{"speaker":"that he actually read all of Isaiah 60","startTime":1369.5,"endTime":1373.302,"body":"brokenness and darkness. And you know as well as anybody that"},{"speaker":"that he actually read all of Isaiah 60","startTime":1373.326,"endTime":1377.078,"body":"wherever there's pain and suffering and tragedy, that that's where God is."},{"speaker":"that he actually read all of Isaiah 60","startTime":1377.134,"endTime":1380.79,"body":"That's where he especially is, where he loves to make himself"},{"speaker":"that he actually read all of Isaiah 60","startTime":1380.87,"endTime":1384.17,"body":"known. Yeah, absolutely."},{"speaker":"that he actually read all of Isaiah 60","startTime":1384.75,"endTime":1388.502,"body":"Well, I love you. Write in chapter"},{"speaker":"that he actually read all of Isaiah 60","startTime":1388.566,"endTime":1392.006,"body":"two about being stuck in the gap between believing and"},{"speaker":"that he actually read all of Isaiah 60","startTime":1392.078,"endTime":1395.846,"body":"knowing. And of course this was important for me as"},{"speaker":"that he actually read all of Isaiah 60","startTime":1395.918,"endTime":1399.53,"body":"I was creating a curriculum for Christ likeness and"},{"speaker":"that he actually read all of Isaiah 60","startTime":1399.91,"endTime":1403.662,"body":"went with 100 people over a four year period and heard their stories"},{"speaker":"that he actually read all of Isaiah 60","startTime":1403.726,"endTime":1407.342,"body":"and so many people would say things to me like, well"},{"speaker":"that he actually read all of Isaiah 60","startTime":1407.366,"endTime":1407.97,"body":"yeah,"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1411.35,"endTime":1414.782,"body":"16. For God so loved the"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1414.806,"endTime":1418.478,"body":"world. And I know that's true somewhere. I mean like I'm"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1418.494,"endTime":1422.014,"body":"supposed to believe that, but I don't"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1422.062,"endTime":1425.9,"body":"truly know it. I don't really experience it. And"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1425.94,"endTime":1429.692,"body":"that was huge for me. And that's essentially why I wrote the"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1429.716,"endTime":1432.924,"body":"Good and Beautiful God Was. That book was not a part of the curriculum and"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1432.932,"endTime":1436.68,"body":"it ended up being, I think, the most important part. But"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1437.38,"endTime":1440.204,"body":"over time, like I didn't see, but when I saw that I went, oh yeah,"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1440.252,"endTime":1443.916,"body":"so talk a little bit about the gap. Because that gap between, like"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1443.988,"endTime":1447.676,"body":"I should know this about, I've heard that God loves"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1447.708,"endTime":1451.25,"body":"me, but I don't really experience it."},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1451.63,"endTime":1455.446,"body":"How do we bridge that gap? Well, let's start with a Dallas Willer quote,"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1455.478,"endTime":1458.13,"body":"because no conversation between you and I would be"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1459.07,"endTime":1462.822,"body":"without Referencing Dallas, I don't know if he has written this"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1462.846,"endTime":1465.526,"body":"anywhere, but in a conversation that I had with him in"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1465.598,"endTime":1469.142,"body":"2007, he said that most Christians are"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1469.166,"endTime":1472.902,"body":"caught between brokenness and ceaseless striving. But is"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1472.926,"endTime":1476.452,"body":"there another way? And that's the question"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1476.636,"endTime":1480.244,"body":"that Christians are asking. You know, I'm either broken, struggling with"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1480.332,"endTime":1483.476,"body":"xyz, and that might be something minor but"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1483.548,"endTime":1487.252,"body":"frustrating and, you know, ongoing, or could"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1487.276,"endTime":1491.092,"body":"be something major like an addiction or like an"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1491.116,"endTime":1494.84,"body":"inability to ever feel anything other than anger, anxiety,"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1495.42,"endTime":1498.916,"body":"depression. Could be a compulsion. It could be a broken"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1498.948,"endTime":1502.644,"body":"relationship that just isn't what we want, so we're stuck with that."},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1502.732,"endTime":1506.02,"body":"Or I'm trying hard and I'm striving"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1506.1,"endTime":1509.636,"body":"and I'm doing more for God in hopes"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1509.828,"endTime":1513.572,"body":"that I'll somehow find the key that opens the door and I walk through"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1513.596,"endTime":1516.72,"body":"that door into this life of abundance that I want."},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1517.1,"endTime":1520.58,"body":"And Dallas's question, is there another way? This book is"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1520.62,"endTime":1524.26,"body":"really me answering that question. Here's the way. Here's the way"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1524.3,"endTime":1528.004,"body":"to not either strive or be stuck in your brokenness."},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1528.052,"endTime":1531.54,"body":"And in that chapter on this gap, I named it the"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1531.58,"endTime":1535.264,"body":"Delta. In science, engineering, and medicine, the Greek letter,"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1535.312,"endTime":1538.992,"body":"the triangle delta represents the space or the gap"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1539.056,"endTime":1541.94,"body":"between the goal and the outcome."},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1542.84,"endTime":1546.688,"body":"This idea of the gap is a delta, and it's this"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1546.744,"endTime":1550.592,"body":"void. Yet delta has another meaning. If we think of the"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1550.616,"endTime":1554.432,"body":"delta of a river, and if you think of the Mississippi, where"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1554.456,"endTime":1557.744,"body":"the fresh, brackish water begins to flow"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1557.872,"endTime":1561.398,"body":"into the salt water, and in that space of two"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1561.454,"endTime":1564.79,"body":"very different things, something new"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1564.83,"endTime":1568.406,"body":"grows, something comes together. So back to your question about the hope"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1568.558,"endTime":1572.134,"body":"is that when we. When we start to tell the truth about"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1572.222,"endTime":1575.846,"body":"our own story and bring that to the truth of who God is,"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1575.918,"endTime":1579.67,"body":"that he looks like Jesus, that he's full of compassion and mercy and"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1579.71,"endTime":1583.222,"body":"welcome and embrace and knows us so intimately, like"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1583.246,"endTime":1586.998,"body":"David talks about in Psalm 139, that before word is on our tongue, he knows"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1587.014,"endTime":1589.49,"body":"it completely, completely. That God"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1590.07,"endTime":1593.886,"body":"doesn't have frustration, he doesn't"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1593.918,"endTime":1597.566,"body":"have disappointment, he doesn't have exasperation. And there's"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1597.598,"endTime":1601.342,"body":"definitely no sense of, you know. Well, by now, I thought you'd figure this"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1601.366,"endTime":1605.15,"body":"out, Michael. I can't believe that after, you know, X amount of years"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1605.19,"endTime":1608.782,"body":"and all the Bible study and education that you can't do better. That's not the"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1608.806,"endTime":1612.01,"body":"God that looks like Jesus. And so"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1612.71,"endTime":1616.36,"body":"we. We must come with a sense of"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1616.48,"endTime":1620.1,"body":"hope in our hearts that there could be something more than this"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1620.72,"endTime":1624.392,"body":"and really be honest with God. Like I was at"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1624.416,"endTime":1627.976,"body":"one point where I was so desperately Exhausted."},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1628.088,"endTime":1631.368,"body":"And the subtitle of the book, Sacred Attachment, is"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1631.424,"endTime":1634.904,"body":"Escaping Spiritual Exhaustion and Trusting Divine"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1634.952,"endTime":1638.664,"body":"Love. But I was so exhausted and tired"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1638.712,"endTime":1642.392,"body":"of this striving or falling into my brokenness again that I prayed to"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1642.416,"endTime":1646.0,"body":"God one day. I said, if this is all there is to Christianity,"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1646.16,"endTime":1649.76,"body":"I don't know if I want to be a Christian. And I was terrified"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1649.84,"endTime":1653.632,"body":"when I prayed that. But I. I kind of heard God inside"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1653.696,"endTime":1657.26,"body":"saying, yes, thank you, because there is more."},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1657.8,"endTime":1661.456,"body":"And I want to get into all of that stuff and,"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1661.528,"endTime":1665.152,"body":"and. And transform it and bring healing and bring integration"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1665.216,"endTime":1668.8,"body":"and wholeness. And I didn't have a lot of those words back then, but I."},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1668.84,"endTime":1672.308,"body":"But I just knew that there was more. And that"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1672.364,"endTime":1676.18,"body":"prayer and others like it began to lead to"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1676.22,"endTime":1680.02,"body":"small changes. And then those small changes would lead to a"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1680.06,"endTime":1683.44,"body":"conversation or a therapist who"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1683.82,"endTime":1686.756,"body":"had an answer that was more than just"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1686.908,"endTime":1690.724,"body":"prescriptive. Do more. More than just cognitive gymnastics,"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1690.772,"endTime":1694.08,"body":"but a path where I could really be changed from the inside out."},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1695.82,"endTime":1699.36,"body":"Man. And the book does that so well. It tells it."},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1700.89,"endTime":1704.482,"body":"You know, I even wrote one in my endorsement as"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1704.586,"endTime":1708.242,"body":"I was reading the book, I was over and over just feeling like"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1708.346,"endTime":1711.43,"body":"it was giving me hope and encouragement."},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1711.77,"endTime":1715.49,"body":"And it's profound. What you do. One of my favorite things"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1715.53,"endTime":1718.962,"body":"about what you do in the book and in chapter"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1719.026,"endTime":1722.802,"body":"three, you do this remarkable. I'm going to call"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1722.826,"endTime":1725.63,"body":"it flipping. You flip something"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1727.46,"endTime":1730.86,"body":"that we normally think this, but let's flip it to"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1730.9,"endTime":1734.652,"body":"this. And the example in"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1734.676,"endTime":1738.46,"body":"chapter three is to think about our sin not as, first"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1738.5,"endTime":1741.852,"body":"and foremost, something bad about us. That's the go"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1741.876,"endTime":1745.644,"body":"to. My sin is something I'm going to right away say, well, this is"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1745.652,"endTime":1749.452,"body":"the bad thing about me. But you flip it to say it's actually an"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1749.476,"endTime":1753.138,"body":"example of your longing and the needs, those four S's."},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1753.234,"endTime":1756.898,"body":"Yes. And you even go so far as to say even our addictions"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1757.074,"endTime":1760.866,"body":"are examples of longings. And I imagine you've"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1760.898,"endTime":1764.27,"body":"seen this over and over in counseling, where people come to you"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1764.81,"endTime":1768.594,"body":"with, here's the brokenness, here's the sin, here's the thing. And"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1768.682,"endTime":1772.53,"body":"what you see, I'm guessing, and explain this to what you"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1772.57,"endTime":1776.37,"body":"see is their longing and their need. You even say that sins"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1776.45,"endTime":1780.07,"body":"just mishandled pain. Yeah. That's such an"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1780.11,"endTime":1783.782,"body":"incredible insight. Yeah. And Jim, I believe that with all"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1783.806,"endTime":1787.062,"body":"my heart. And I've not yet gotten to the point yet where I can say"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1787.086,"endTime":1790.918,"body":"that. And there's not the doctrine police in the back of my head saying, but"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1790.974,"endTime":1794.822,"body":"you know, that's heresy, because the focal point is not"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1794.846,"endTime":1797.622,"body":"us, it's not about us. It's not about our pain. It's about the glory of"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1797.646,"endTime":1800.89,"body":"God. Well, the glory of God is in our pain."},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1801.55,"endTime":1805.126,"body":"Jurgen Boltman said that the glory of God is the crucified"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1805.238,"endTime":1809.082,"body":"Christ. And so I believe that's entirely true,"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1809.146,"endTime":1812.842,"body":"because if there was a God that I was going to create, I"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1812.866,"endTime":1816.202,"body":"would think that he could rise himself from the dead. I would think that he"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1816.226,"endTime":1819.946,"body":"could create the world by blinking his eyes. I would think that he could make"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1820.018,"endTime":1823.03,"body":"Mount Everest or chocolate or"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1823.33,"endTime":1826.87,"body":"wine, coffee, sex. But"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1827.17,"endTime":1830.19,"body":"no one would ever imagine a God"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1830.85,"endTime":1834.65,"body":"that would express his longing for intimacy and his"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1834.69,"endTime":1838.094,"body":"longing for connection. And as Philip Yancy says,"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1838.242,"endTime":1841.878,"body":"God just loves company. God wants company. And"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1841.934,"endTime":1845.51,"body":"no one would ever imagine a creator, Almighty God, that would"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1845.55,"endTime":1849.286,"body":"reveal himself most particularly and"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1849.358,"endTime":1853.11,"body":"powerfully by being stripped naked and dying"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1853.19,"endTime":1856.726,"body":"for the world to redeem it. And"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1856.798,"endTime":1860.01,"body":"so, you know, God's glory is in pain."},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1860.59,"endTime":1864.086,"body":"And there's actually a kind of beauty in our pain"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1864.198,"endTime":1867.09,"body":"when we surrender it."},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1867.55,"endTime":1871.27,"body":"And I guess I've kind of become known for that"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1871.31,"endTime":1875.062,"body":"idea of flipping things, because I think that"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1875.246,"endTime":1879.078,"body":"we need new eyes to see. I said when I wrote"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1879.094,"endTime":1882.518,"body":"this book that I wanted to give people a new lens to see"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1882.654,"endTime":1886.31,"body":"God, a new lens to see themselves. And in"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1886.35,"endTime":1889.942,"body":"that, to reimagine a way of relating"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1890.006,"endTime":1893.59,"body":"to God and doing life with God that was compelling and"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1893.63,"endTime":1896.23,"body":"fresh and full of. Full of"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1896.77,"endTime":1900.506,"body":"possibility and life and joy. And,"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1900.658,"endTime":1904.282,"body":"you know, for 44 years, as I've followed Jesus,"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1904.426,"endTime":1908.25,"body":"the people that talk a lot about sin and"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1908.29,"endTime":1911.802,"body":"put the emphasis on that are not people that I've experienced as having a lot"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1911.826,"endTime":1915.61,"body":"of joy and vitality and freedom."},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1915.69,"endTime":1918.39,"body":"And they're not generally people that I'm drawn to."},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1918.85,"endTime":1922.586,"body":"And further, when we understand that sin is how we mishandle"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1922.618,"endTime":1925.53,"body":"our pain, if we can get to the source of that pain, which is our"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1925.57,"endTime":1928.36,"body":"wounds, the ways that we also"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1928.66,"endTime":1932.108,"body":"mishandle our weakness, our vulnerability and limitation, and"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1932.164,"endTime":1935.98,"body":"withhold that and only let people love us for who we think"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1936.02,"endTime":1939.48,"body":"they want us to be. We can never be loved for who we actually are."},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1940.26,"endTime":1944.012,"body":"When we don't enter into the warfare and the lies and the accusations that have"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1944.036,"endTime":1947.532,"body":"come against us. And then when we don't acknowledge that our souls are"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1947.556,"endTime":1951.404,"body":"inclusive of our body. And therefore, there's another W"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1951.492,"endTime":1954.992,"body":"that I talk about in regard to what fuels our sin, and that's our"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1955.016,"endTime":1958.784,"body":"wiring, our nervous system that when we're not regulated"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1958.912,"endTime":1962.0,"body":"because of that secure attachment that we talked about at the beginning of this"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1962.04,"endTime":1965.728,"body":"podcast. And, you know, if someone is"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1965.784,"endTime":1969.28,"body":"dysregulated in their nervous system, it's going to be really hard for them to know"},{"speaker":"I've heard that God loves me. Right? John 3","startTime":1969.32,"endTime":1972.88,"body":"the peace that passes all understanding, or it's going to be really hard for them"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":1972.92,"endTime":1976.72,"body":"10"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":1976.76,"endTime":1980.56,"body":"tells us. So, you know, our spirituality will only extend as far as"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":1980.6,"endTime":1984.12,"body":"our embodied self is able to"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":1985.22,"endTime":1988.588,"body":"show up with what's there and then to find peace in the midst of that,"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":1988.644,"endTime":1992.3,"body":"as opposed to have some kind of intellectual idea about peace."},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":1992.46,"endTime":1996.236,"body":"And if we rehearse that enough, then we'll feel joy and abundance and"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":1996.308,"endTime":2000.156,"body":"all of that good stuff. Well, I want to circle"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2000.188,"endTime":2003.16,"body":"back to those W's in a minute, but"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2004.18,"endTime":2007.778,"body":"in chapter four, which you write about evil,"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2007.924,"endTime":2011.574,"body":"and I think it's crucial that you talk about that. But again, you kind of"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2011.582,"endTime":2015.366,"body":"do a flip on us because you write in that chapter"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2015.398,"endTime":2018.694,"body":"about two core lies, or I would say false"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2018.742,"endTime":2022.006,"body":"narratives, and you say that evil is actually"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2022.078,"endTime":2025.91,"body":"sustained by these two lies. The first is you"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2025.95,"endTime":2029.718,"body":"can't trust God, and the second is it's up to you,"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2029.774,"endTime":2033.598,"body":"because God won't come through. And boy, I've."},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2033.734,"endTime":2037.262,"body":"I've thought those felt those. I've seen those in so many"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2037.286,"endTime":2040.13,"body":"people's lives that I've worked with in formation."},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2041.19,"endTime":2044.958,"body":"It's. So say more about those two. You can't trust God, and it's"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2044.974,"endTime":2048.43,"body":"up to you, because God won't come through those two. Those two"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2048.47,"endTime":2052.286,"body":"lies. Well, apart from grace, which God"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2052.318,"endTime":2055.854,"body":"is flooding into the world at all moments wherever he is present,"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2055.942,"endTime":2059.71,"body":"and God is everywhere apart from his grace"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2059.79,"endTime":2063.4,"body":"there. Those two lies make the world go round. And"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2063.52,"endTime":2066.824,"body":"it's important to say at the outset that they are lies. They are false"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2066.872,"endTime":2070.68,"body":"narratives that are a result of the serpent in the"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2070.72,"endTime":2074.392,"body":"Genesis story, in chapter three, deceiving Adam and Eve."},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2074.536,"endTime":2077.816,"body":"So this has always been something curious to me, right? So Adam and Eve sinned,"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2077.848,"endTime":2080.552,"body":"and we talk a lot about that, but we don't talk a lot about the"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2080.576,"endTime":2083.82,"body":"deception. And this raises a number of interesting"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2084.24,"endTime":2087.88,"body":"theological and philosophical questions about, like, are we"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2087.92,"endTime":2090.62,"body":"culpable in light of the fact that we were deceived?"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2091.6,"endTime":2095.368,"body":"You know, if somebody. I won't try to come up with an analogy for"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2095.424,"endTime":2099.144,"body":"right now, but we pay attention to that deception,"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2099.192,"endTime":2102.696,"body":"that there was intentionality behind the serpent,"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2102.888,"endTime":2106.616,"body":"that the serpent wanted to draw Adam"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2106.648,"endTime":2110.488,"body":"and Eve away from being able to trust, from being able"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2110.544,"endTime":2114.12,"body":"to rest in a state of dependency, that someone was there for"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2114.16,"endTime":2117.992,"body":"them, that someone, this God that walked with them in the cool of the"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2118.016,"endTime":2121.588,"body":"day, that he would reliably and predictably, if you will,"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2121.644,"endTime":2125.332,"body":"attune to them now back to the scene Sooths. Safe, secure. For a minute in"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2125.356,"endTime":2129.204,"body":"a parentheses to the degree that we're seeing, soothe, Safe, secure"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2129.252,"endTime":2132.692,"body":"between 0 and 4 years old is the degree to which we will"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2132.716,"endTime":2136.42,"body":"trust that attachment. That secure attachment is the"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2136.46,"endTime":2139.54,"body":"foundation for all trust. And so the"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2139.58,"endTime":2143.076,"body":"serpent was coming against a secure"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2143.108,"endTime":2146.75,"body":"attachment. And there's something in the minds that we can"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2146.79,"endTime":2150.062,"body":"imagine of Adam and Eve. Maybe we aren't so"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2150.086,"endTime":2153.934,"body":"secure. Maybe love doesn't have us."},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2154.102,"endTime":2157.902,"body":"Maybe God's not who he said he is. It was Oswald Chambers"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2157.966,"endTime":2161.53,"body":"that said, all sin is rooted in the suspicion that God is not good."},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2161.91,"endTime":2165.694,"body":"And that's the accusation that evil brought to Adam and Eve in"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2165.702,"endTime":2168.942,"body":"the garden over and over again. You can't trust him. You can't trust him. And"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2168.966,"endTime":2172.076,"body":"then the suggestion, but you know who you can trust?"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2172.188,"endTime":2175.9,"body":"Yourself. You're pretty thoughtful after all. I mean, you"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2175.94,"endTime":2179.788,"body":"named all the animals Adam and Eve. You know, you've"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2179.804,"endTime":2182.972,"body":"been looking at that apple and you actually know all the Latin names of all"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2182.996,"endTime":2186.444,"body":"the plants in the garden. And of course, I'm using my imagination here"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2186.612,"endTime":2190.092,"body":"and they start to get the idea that, yeah, we, we are pretty good at"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2190.116,"endTime":2193.788,"body":"taking care of ourselves. So if we can't trust love and"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2193.844,"endTime":2197.222,"body":"we can be loving to one another, then I think we'll be"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2197.246,"endTime":2201.062,"body":"okay. And so that lie, of course, led to"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2201.086,"endTime":2204.582,"body":"death. And let me just say this because toward the end"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2204.606,"endTime":2208.358,"body":"of healing our image of God and being able to feel seen, soothe,"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2208.374,"endTime":2212.214,"body":"safe, secure. I've often struggled with more as a"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2212.222,"endTime":2215.942,"body":"younger Christian than now. But how can I trust God to"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2215.966,"endTime":2219.782,"body":"love me and take care of me if he punished Adam and"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2219.806,"endTime":2223.518,"body":"Eve by kicking them out of the garden and condemning them to death?"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2223.614,"endTime":2227.134,"body":"And that's a narrative that I've heard so much, right? So that they ate from"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2227.142,"endTime":2230.958,"body":"the fruit and so they were going to die. And it's"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2230.974,"endTime":2234.49,"body":"not that God killed them or God gave them"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2235.83,"endTime":2239.374,"body":"a death row punishment. It's akin to"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2239.462,"endTime":2243.31,"body":"Adam and Eve were in ICU on life support because they were"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2243.35,"endTime":2246.37,"body":"no longer attached to and securely"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2247.43,"endTime":2251.246,"body":"resting in love. They signed themselves out of the hospital against"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2251.318,"endTime":2254.87,"body":"medical advice. That's what this idea of"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2255.25,"endTime":2259.002,"body":"having this death sentence upon them death was the"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2259.026,"endTime":2262.042,"body":"natural consequence of pulling the plug from the"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2262.066,"endTime":2264.95,"body":"ventilator and walking out of the hospital."},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2265.49,"endTime":2269.13,"body":"And what happened when God sent them out of the garden, many have"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2269.17,"endTime":2272.57,"body":"suggested, is that in that sinful"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2272.65,"endTime":2276.282,"body":"state, they could go and eat from the tree of life and"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2276.386,"endTime":2280.074,"body":"presumably live forever in that sinful state. And so"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2280.082,"endTime":2283.722,"body":"he sent them away from the tree of life A to set them up"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2283.746,"endTime":2287.562,"body":"for grace, so that they would actually need God again. And through the"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2287.586,"endTime":2290.634,"body":"brokenness of the world and the"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2290.802,"endTime":2293.95,"body":"detachment from God, that they would cry out for God"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2294.45,"endTime":2298.122,"body":"beautifully. He shows up and he makes garments for them. And he"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2298.146,"endTime":2301.882,"body":"says. He doesn't say this in the text, but again, my imagination, God's saying,"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2301.906,"endTime":2305.21,"body":"you know, you think fig leaves are going to take away that"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2305.25,"endTime":2308.942,"body":"shame? First of all, that shame is a lie from"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2308.966,"endTime":2312.67,"body":"the serpent as well as from this story that"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2312.71,"endTime":2315.982,"body":"you think you can take care of yourselves and you really can't. So I'm going"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2316.006,"endTime":2319.326,"body":"to replace those fig leaves with garments that will keep you warm,"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2319.518,"endTime":2323.182,"body":"garments that will clothe what you"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2323.206,"endTime":2326.91,"body":"believe is shame and allow you to function in a world until you come"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2326.95,"endTime":2330.622,"body":"back to me. And so what's really"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2330.646,"endTime":2334.49,"body":"helpful in spiritual formation and in the therapy work we do is"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2334.53,"endTime":2338.266,"body":"to uncover those lies. And then the final thing I'd"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2338.298,"endTime":2342.026,"body":"say and, you know, interrupt me, but we can't just cognitively"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2342.058,"endTime":2345.722,"body":"and intellectually re narrate"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2345.786,"endTime":2349.402,"body":"the story. We have to embody that. We have to feel the lie in our"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2349.426,"endTime":2353.018,"body":"body, which is shame and anxiety. I'm alone."},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2353.114,"endTime":2356.794,"body":"Feeling of dread. And then we have to re. Embody"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2356.922,"endTime":2360.398,"body":"what it means that love has us. We need to"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2360.514,"endTime":2364.23,"body":"have that experience of being seen and known in community and by"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2364.27,"endTime":2368.038,"body":"God, and to be soothed in community and by God and to feel"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2368.094,"endTime":2371.798,"body":"safe with God and others so that we can ultimately develop"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2371.854,"endTime":2375.126,"body":"a secure attachment. And this happens over time, but it does"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2375.198,"endTime":2378.902,"body":"happen. Yeah, that's. Oh, man, that's good."},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2379.086,"endTime":2382.79,"body":"That's a great telling of the fall and"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2382.83,"endTime":2386.39,"body":"the, you know, being cast out of the garden. It's leaving."},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2386.55,"endTime":2390.398,"body":"We leave the hospital. That's good. But, you know, Crosby, Stills"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2390.414,"endTime":2394.014,"body":"and Nash had it right. We've got to get ourselves back to the garden. Yes."},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2394.142,"endTime":2396.926,"body":"You know, I knew you'd like. If I can quote an old rock song. Yeah."},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2396.958,"endTime":2399.77,"body":"From so far, one of my favorite albums of all time."},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2400.55,"endTime":2403.53,"body":"But thanks be to Jesus, he reversed the fall. There we go."},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2404.15,"endTime":2407.87,"body":"So let me. Let me just say that song is from Woodstock, which"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2407.91,"endTime":2411.518,"body":"I think that song was written in 1971 or two."},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2411.654,"endTime":2415.032,"body":"And how interesting that secular rock and"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2415.056,"endTime":2418.792,"body":"rollers, their. Their word for get ourselves Back to"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2418.816,"endTime":2422.632,"body":"the Garden is going to this event that"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2422.656,"endTime":2426.472,"body":"there was no social media for Woodstock at Yasgur's farm up in"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2426.496,"endTime":2430.04,"body":"New York. And it just spread like wildfire in"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2430.08,"endTime":2433.784,"body":"underground newspapers and people started talking and on radio shows"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2433.832,"endTime":2437.48,"body":"and, you know, thousands and thousands of people. It's rumored that there were a hundred"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2437.52,"endTime":2441.268,"body":"thousand people there at one point. And they sat through the rain. Why? Because"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2441.324,"endTime":2445.172,"body":"there Was worship going on. There was someone on a stage"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2445.316,"endTime":2448.74,"body":"that people were drawn to, how their artistry and their"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2448.78,"endTime":2452.228,"body":"creativity affected their hearts. And it lifted them up into"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2452.284,"endTime":2455.908,"body":"something bigger than their own life. And there were a hundred thousand people"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2455.964,"endTime":2459.588,"body":"connected in this hippie movement that led to the Jesus movement of"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2459.644,"endTime":2463.412,"body":"community. I mean, everybody will talk about, oh, yeah, the people and"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2463.436,"endTime":2466.916,"body":"the relationships. And then the other part that was going on were drugs and"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2466.988,"endTime":2470.0,"body":"free sex, which also brought a."},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2470.54,"endTime":2474.02,"body":"A counterfeit. And it's important to say counterfeit version of"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2474.06,"endTime":2477.844,"body":"transcendence and union. And so that. That song, you"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2477.852,"endTime":2481.572,"body":"know, to exegete the song is we're all. We're all wanting to get"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2481.596,"endTime":2485.38,"body":"back to the garden. And when I eat compulsively and when I"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2485.42,"endTime":2488.804,"body":"numb myself watching Netflix and when I'm"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2488.932,"endTime":2492.612,"body":"buying stuff that I can't afford and shouldn't online, you"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2492.636,"endTime":2496.17,"body":"know, as an impulse thing, I'm trying to get back to the garden."},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2496.99,"endTime":2500.774,"body":"Wow, I'm so glad I brought that up because it was just kind of"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2500.782,"endTime":2503.814,"body":"a throw off, funny thing because you and I joke a lot and I thought,"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2503.902,"endTime":2507.494,"body":"oh, yeah, Crosby still stands. But wow, that's a deep exegesis"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2507.542,"endTime":2511.302,"body":"and great points. That's why I love music. Yeah. There's so much"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2511.326,"endTime":2515.126,"body":"to it. Well, my guest today is Michael J. Cusick,"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2515.158,"endTime":2518.886,"body":"and we're talking about his book Sacred Escaping Spiritual Exhaustion"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2518.918,"endTime":2522.1,"body":"and Trusting in Divine Love. It's a fantastic book."},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2524.08,"endTime":2527.9,"body":"Let's talk. You have this chapter titled Turning,"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2528.56,"endTime":2532.344,"body":"and you have this amazing sentence I want you to dig into a"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2532.352,"endTime":2535.592,"body":"little bit. You write, I realized that until I"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2535.616,"endTime":2538.36,"body":"understood that God loved me in my"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2538.4,"endTime":2541.5,"body":"brokenness, I could not become whole."},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2543.36,"endTime":2547.112,"body":"Say more about that. I realized that until I understood that"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2547.136,"endTime":2550.88,"body":"God loved me in my brokenness, I could not become whole."},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2551.86,"endTime":2555.66,"body":"Yeah, I used to maybe say something like, God loved me"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2555.7,"endTime":2559.436,"body":"despite my brokenness. And in the same chapter,"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2559.548,"endTime":2562.892,"body":"I quote St. Ambrose, where there is in"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2562.916,"endTime":2566.316,"body":"the Catholic Church, you know, going back to the 6th"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2566.348,"endTime":2570.012,"body":"century, the Ambrosian rite was a way that they"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2570.036,"endTime":2573.708,"body":"would start the worship service and there was a prayer where"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2573.764,"endTime":2577.53,"body":"the priest would pray, God, thank you, that you"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2577.57,"endTime":2580.57,"body":"use even our sins to show us your goodness. And the"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2580.61,"endTime":2583.95,"body":"implication is that God loves our sin."},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2584.45,"endTime":2588.122,"body":"Now, boom, there's the controversial thing where you lost listeners or"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2588.146,"endTime":2591.93,"body":"I lost readers. But this idea that God loves me"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2591.97,"endTime":2595.642,"body":"in my brokenness is that it's my brokenness."},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2595.706,"endTime":2599.55,"body":"It's my sin that sets up my need for God,"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2599.89,"endTime":2603.588,"body":"my brokenness. And my sin is my poverty. Because"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2603.644,"endTime":2607.412,"body":"sin is no thing. It's nothing. It's just my movement"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2607.476,"endTime":2611.24,"body":"Away from God and mistrusting love as I mishandle my pain."},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2611.58,"endTime":2615.38,"body":"And God doesn't, like, love the guy that I should be."},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2615.42,"endTime":2618.932,"body":"This is Brennan Manning's words, right? That he doesn't love the guy I should be"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2618.956,"endTime":2622.372,"body":"or the guy I will be. He loves the guy that I am. And if"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2622.396,"endTime":2625.764,"body":"I never change, if I never take another step"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2625.852,"endTime":2629.188,"body":"closer to Jesus, that God loves that"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2629.244,"endTime":2631.81,"body":"person. You know, we're talking on January"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2632.75,"endTime":2636.502,"body":"13th, and so just a couple weeks out from the"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2636.526,"endTime":2640.182,"body":"New Year, and I just thought, I am so tired of"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2640.206,"endTime":2644.022,"body":"this idea of resolutions and say, this year I'm going to be better."},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2644.206,"endTime":2647.59,"body":"And maybe it's because I just turned 60, but it's like I just don't want"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2647.63,"endTime":2651.302,"body":"to have to change. And I've got a thousand ways that I want to"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2651.326,"endTime":2654.918,"body":"change and actually a couple things where my heart is intending on this."},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2655.054,"endTime":2658.778,"body":"But. But what if on New Year's Eve, we sat around"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2658.834,"endTime":2662.186,"body":"in a community and just looked at one another and said, you know, you're"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2662.218,"endTime":2666.042,"body":"good. I think you can skip the resolutions this year. What"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2666.066,"endTime":2669.114,"body":"if I, in my mind's eye, in the eyes of my heart, I just pictured"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2669.162,"endTime":2671.63,"body":"Jesus over me going, you know, Michael,"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2673.09,"endTime":2676.602,"body":"I think this year you're good. No resolutions. You know, you don't have to try"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2676.626,"endTime":2680.346,"body":"to get off the naughty list. There's something so freeing"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2680.378,"endTime":2684.16,"body":"about that. No improvement needed, no stretching,"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2684.24,"endTime":2688.064,"body":"striving. And there's something about that, then that makes me actually want"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2688.152,"endTime":2692.0,"body":"to surrender more and open my heart to love and"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2692.04,"endTime":2695.68,"body":"become more integrated and whole and learn how to be still and to"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2695.72,"endTime":2699.44,"body":"rest. But even New Year's resolutions have this sense of,"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2699.48,"endTime":2703.152,"body":"I'm going to make something happen this year as opposed"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2703.216,"endTime":2706.74,"body":"to, I'm going to turn my attention"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2707.24,"endTime":2710.984,"body":"and my energy to the inside and somehow allow myself"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2711.032,"endTime":2714.728,"body":"to be formed in a way that I can't do myself. That is"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2714.784,"endTime":2717.94,"body":"so good. That is so good."},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2718.72,"endTime":2722.328,"body":"Well, I do want to come back to the five W's"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2722.424,"endTime":2726.072,"body":"because you mentioned them earlier, and we don't have a"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2726.096,"endTime":2729.736,"body":"ton of time to unpack all five. But those five W's"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2729.768,"endTime":2732.84,"body":"write about wretchedness, weakness, woundedness, warfare, and"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2732.88,"endTime":2736.45,"body":"wiring. Tell us why you think these five"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2736.49,"endTime":2740.23,"body":"W's are so important to understand in the spiritual journey."},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2741.05,"endTime":2744.642,"body":"Well, I do think that there's great value in understanding our"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2744.666,"endTime":2748.434,"body":"inner world. You know, that's the gift"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2748.562,"endTime":2752.03,"body":"of spiritual direction and"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2752.73,"endTime":2756.53,"body":"mysticism and spiritual formation. Everything"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2756.57,"endTime":2760.146,"body":"that you write and teach about is that it actually"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2760.218,"endTime":2763.872,"body":"allows us to bring our story and our narrative"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2763.936,"endTime":2767.744,"body":"up against the narrative of God. And so understanding our brokenness"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2767.792,"endTime":2771.28,"body":"through these five W's becomes a way of not just"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2771.32,"endTime":2774.848,"body":"understanding the chronology and the way that our dots of our story"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2774.904,"endTime":2778.512,"body":"connect together through events and experiences, but how that's"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2778.576,"endTime":2782.416,"body":"formed the inside parts of us. And as I've"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2782.448,"endTime":2786.176,"body":"given this framework to people directly and indirectly, it helps"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2786.208,"endTime":2790.0,"body":"them to have compassion toward themselves, and it helps them to take the"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2790.04,"endTime":2793.764,"body":"emphasis off of sin and what they're doing wrong and"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2793.852,"endTime":2797.476,"body":"perhaps how bad they are. And it helps them to say, oh,"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2797.508,"endTime":2800.772,"body":"I'm broken and I need a savior who's a soul"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2800.836,"endTime":2804.628,"body":"surgeon to put me back together. And I'll just talk about one"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2804.684,"endTime":2808.5,"body":"W, if I may, because I alluded to the others already. I"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2808.54,"endTime":2812.356,"body":"used to have the first W as wickedness, But Eugene"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2812.388,"endTime":2815.652,"body":"Peterson said that our words get tired. And so we need words that are fresh"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2815.716,"endTime":2819.204,"body":"and new, that will allow people that are on the outside to get on the"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2819.212,"endTime":2823.012,"body":"inside, and that can revitalize people that are on the inside of faith. And"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2823.036,"endTime":2826.832,"body":"so I replaced the word wicked because people would react to that and think"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2826.856,"endTime":2829.06,"body":"that that's Hitler and bin Laden"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2830.2,"endTime":2833.936,"body":"and. And I replaced it with the word wretched. And I had somebody"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2833.968,"endTime":2837.584,"body":"say to me, well, that's not a lot better. But. But just for a"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2837.592,"endTime":2841.28,"body":"moment, everybody think about Amazing Grace. Amazing Grace how sweet the sound that"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2841.32,"endTime":2845.04,"body":"what saved a wretch like me Yeah, I used to sing"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2845.08,"endTime":2848.848,"body":"that song in church. I'd be standing there. I love the melody. I've"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2848.864,"endTime":2852.192,"body":"heard it with bagpipes. You know, there's so many secular people that have recorded that"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2852.216,"endTime":2855.824,"body":"song. So I looked up the word wretch. What exactly is a wretch? I'm"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2855.872,"endTime":2858.976,"body":"one. I know that because I'm terrible and look at my life, and it says"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2859.048,"endTime":2862.704,"body":"vile or despicable. A wretch is somebody who's vile and despicable."},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2862.832,"endTime":2866.624,"body":"But if you go further back in the etymology, Dickens"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2866.752,"endTime":2870.448,"body":"spoke of a wretch in borrowing from Old English,"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2870.544,"endTime":2874.24,"body":"as a child who was standing on a"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2874.28,"endTime":2878.048,"body":"corner, either begging or selling matches or"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2878.104,"endTime":2881.844,"body":"pencils. A wretch is someone who's impoverished"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2881.972,"endTime":2885.668,"body":"or more powerfully, someone who's in exile, someone"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2885.724,"endTime":2889.476,"body":"who's away from home. And"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2889.548,"endTime":2893.38,"body":"there have been a number of authors, including my dear friend"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2893.42,"endTime":2897.028,"body":"Ian Cron, whose new book, the fix about the 12"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2897.084,"endTime":2899.76,"body":"steps, unpacks the idea that"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2900.54,"endTime":2903.716,"body":"the word salvation actually means coming"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2903.788,"endTime":2907.55,"body":"home. We certainly see that in the story of the prodigal son, right,"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2907.59,"endTime":2911.29,"body":"where the son who went off and was"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2913.11,"endTime":2916.606,"body":"spending all of his father's money and the inheritance on"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2916.678,"endTime":2920.382,"body":"wild living, that his salvation was in coming home."},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2920.566,"endTime":2924.19,"body":"And so a wretch if we think about, I'm not bad, but"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2924.23,"endTime":2927.87,"body":"I'm impoverished. My credit card is maxed out,"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2927.91,"endTime":2931.664,"body":"my checking account is in the red, my piggy bank"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2931.752,"endTime":2935.024,"body":"is empty, my pockets are empty, and I've got no game."},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2935.112,"endTime":2938.96,"body":"God, all I can bring is myself. That"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2939.0,"endTime":2942.672,"body":"reflects Isaiah 55, where the prophet says,"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2942.776,"endTime":2946.62,"body":"you who are thirsty, you who have no money,"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2947.08,"endTime":2950.832,"body":"come buy wine and milk and bread, the richest of"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2950.856,"endTime":2954.58,"body":"fare. And it's this very curious picture"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2955.0,"endTime":2958.46,"body":"where in God's economy, we can only buy"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2958.79,"endTime":2962.494,"body":"when we realize we're bankrupt, when we realize we're impoverished."},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2962.542,"endTime":2966.318,"body":"And this is the spirit behind this word wretch. And so"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2966.454,"endTime":2970.222,"body":"I like to help people think about sinfulness, as will you sin"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2970.286,"endTime":2974.014,"body":"because you're impoverished. And you're just trying to spend money on"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2974.102,"endTime":2977.29,"body":"what is not bread when it's actually not money."},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2977.75,"endTime":2981.246,"body":"Teresa of Lesoux said that our singular"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2981.438,"endTime":2985.192,"body":"capacity for God is our poverty. And"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2985.296,"endTime":2989.08,"body":"not just economic poverty, but our spiritual poverty. Because it's, you know,"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2989.12,"endTime":2992.68,"body":"just after Christmas, we all heard the Little Drummer Boy. I have no"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2992.72,"endTime":2996.44,"body":"gift to bring parumpa pum pum, except me and this"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":2996.48,"endTime":3000.216,"body":"little silly drum. I remember in kindergarten, I was in the Little Drummer Boy"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":3000.248,"endTime":3003.784,"body":"play, and I had a Maxwell House coffee can with a plastic lid on it,"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":3003.792,"endTime":3007.208,"body":"and that was my drum. And, you know, at the end of the day, that's"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":3007.224,"endTime":3010.936,"body":"all I've got. God's not impressed with my"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":3011.008,"endTime":3014.502,"body":"credentials or the books that I write or, you know, with how"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":3014.526,"endTime":3018.342,"body":"helpful I have been. God just wants my heart. Sometimes that"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":3018.366,"endTime":3021.718,"body":"feels like an empty coffee can that still smells like coffee."},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":3021.814,"endTime":3025.33,"body":"And he's actually pretty impressed by that because it's me."},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":3026.35,"endTime":3030.182,"body":"It's so good. That is so good. Michael, the"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":3030.206,"endTime":3034.006,"body":"book is amazing, and you are a dear friend,"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":3034.078,"endTime":3037.782,"body":"and you are also a frequent flyer at the Apprentice gathering. And you will"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":3037.806,"endTime":3041.286,"body":"be speaking, giving a plenary talk at The Apprentice"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":3041.318,"endTime":3044.88,"body":"gathering 2025 and teaching some"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":3044.92,"endTime":3048.544,"body":"workshops. And we are, my goodness, we are nearing"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":3048.592,"endTime":3052.0,"body":"being sold out already. There's only maybe a hundred or so"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":3052.04,"endTime":3055.616,"body":"spots left. And it's January, so it's not. It's"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":3055.648,"endTime":3059.248,"body":"in the last week of September, 2025. So"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":3059.384,"endTime":3063.232,"body":"anybody listening, do sign up because the spots are"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":3063.256,"endTime":3066.8,"body":"going fast. Michael, I"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":3066.84,"endTime":3070.574,"body":"enjoy. You go ahead. Can we talk about the lineup there so that"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":3070.582,"endTime":3074.062,"body":"we can get. I know 100 people to sign up now, for my"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":3074.086,"endTime":3077.934,"body":"listeners, they'd love to know that, yeah, it's me, but it's also Kurt"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":3077.982,"endTime":3081.662,"body":"Thompson, author of Soul of Shame, Anatomy, the Soul, Soul of Desire"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":3081.726,"endTime":3085.438,"body":"and the Deepest Place. Allison Cook, Andy"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":3085.454,"endTime":3089.118,"body":"Colber, Ian Cron, Anybody else that's a keynote"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":3089.134,"endTime":3092.942,"body":"speaker, as well as all the workshop leaders. I think you got the five, the."},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":3092.966,"endTime":3096.482,"body":"Fab Five, the Integration of Mental Health and"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":3096.506,"endTime":3100.162,"body":"spiritual formation. Yes. I'm so"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":3100.186,"endTime":3103.986,"body":"excited about this group of people. And Andy"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":3104.018,"endTime":3107.778,"body":"is going to be on the podcast soon. Allison, I think is even next"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":3107.834,"endTime":3111.618,"body":"up on Things above, so listeners will get to hear"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":3111.674,"endTime":3115.426,"body":"from them. But, yeah, it's an incredible lineup of people"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":3115.498,"endTime":3118.27,"body":"and great teachers. The workshops are amazing. So"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":3119.37,"endTime":3122.95,"body":"I'm so grateful for you being a part of it. And,"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":3123.41,"endTime":3127.242,"body":"man, this conversation has been great. So many. I was sitting there trying to"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":3127.266,"endTime":3130.154,"body":"write these great quotes, things you were saying, and I couldn't keep up with all"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":3130.162,"endTime":3133.418,"body":"of it. But I'm going to go back and listen to this podcast"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":3133.594,"endTime":3137.37,"body":"and skip the parts where I talk, but get to some of these great things"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":3137.41,"endTime":3141.002,"body":"you said, these incredible nuggets of truth"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":3141.066,"endTime":3144.666,"body":"and wisdom and my goodness."},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":3144.858,"endTime":3148.442,"body":"Michael, I love you, friend, and I can't wait to see you face to"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":3148.466,"endTime":3151.898,"body":"face. Oh, Jim, I love you, too. Thank you for being a great friend. Thank"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":3151.914,"endTime":3155.594,"body":"you for being a champion of this book. And you wrote"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":3155.642,"endTime":3159.258,"body":"a beautiful, lengthy endorsement that really"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":3159.314,"endTime":3163.066,"body":"moved me. So I'm just. I'm happy to talk with you"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":3163.218,"endTime":3166.522,"body":"anytime. And this has been an especially enriching"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":3166.586,"endTime":3170.282,"body":"conversation for me. Well, it is. It's an amazing"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":3170.346,"endTime":3173.866,"body":"book. Again, folks, be sure and go get this book,"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":3173.938,"endTime":3177.572,"body":"Sacred Escaping Spiritual Exhaustion and Trusting in Divine Love"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":3177.706,"endTime":3181.552,"body":"by Michael J. Cusick. And we will. I'm sure we'll have you back on"},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":3181.576,"endTime":3185.168,"body":"again because you have been a frequent flyer and will continue to be."},{"speaker":"to be still and know that he is God, as Psalm 46","startTime":3185.304,"endTime":3186.84,"body":"But, Michael, thanks for being with us today."}]}