{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.32,"endTime":4.056,"body":"Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the Restoring the Soul podcast. I'm"},{"startTime":4.088,"endTime":7.512,"body":"Michael and I am back with my perennial favorite"},{"startTime":7.576,"endTime":10.888,"body":"because he's a lifelong friend, Ian Morgan"},{"startTime":10.984,"endTime":14.824,"body":"Cron. Hi, Ian. Hey, Michael. How you doing? So excited"},{"startTime":14.872,"endTime":18.44,"body":"to be talking with you. We've talked a number of times this week, but the"},{"startTime":18.48,"endTime":22.04,"body":"podcast conversation hasn't come up. So I'm thrilled for where this will"},{"startTime":22.08,"endTime":25.88,"body":"go. Your book is called the"},{"startTime":25.92,"endTime":29.512,"body":"Fix and. And I'm going to have to actually read the subtitle because it's a"},{"startTime":29.536,"endTime":33.192,"body":"long subtitle, but it's a good one. The fix how the 12 steps offer a"},{"startTime":33.216,"endTime":36.92,"body":"surprising path of transformation for the well adjusted, the down"},{"startTime":36.96,"endTime":40.1,"body":"and out, and everyone in between."},{"startTime":40.88,"endTime":44.36,"body":"What I want to start with is. On the surface,"},{"startTime":44.52,"endTime":48.072,"body":"this looks like a big shift for you from writing about the"},{"startTime":48.096,"endTime":51.784,"body":"Enneagram and your spiritual memoir, Jesus, My Father,"},{"startTime":51.832,"endTime":55.43,"body":"CIA and Me, and your novel Chasing"},{"startTime":55.51,"endTime":59.222,"body":"Francis. This feels like a big shift on the surface, but as readers get"},{"startTime":59.246,"endTime":63.078,"body":"into it, I think they're going to say, oh, this actually feels like an extension"},{"startTime":63.254,"endTime":67.03,"body":"and a deepening of your previous writing. So talk about why"},{"startTime":67.15,"endTime":70.582,"body":"the fix and why now. Yeah,"},{"startTime":70.646,"endTime":74.39,"body":"well, when I look over my writing career and"},{"startTime":74.43,"endTime":78.262,"body":"also over my professional career, I'd say that my"},{"startTime":78.286,"endTime":81.06,"body":"overall mission is to"},{"startTime":82.16,"endTime":85.896,"body":"introduce people to ideas and experiences that deepen and improve"},{"startTime":85.968,"endTime":89.304,"body":"their lives. Right. And that could be the"},{"startTime":89.312,"endTime":92.06,"body":"Enneagram, that could be the life of St. Francis."},{"startTime":93.36,"endTime":97.06,"body":"And now along comes this"},{"startTime":98.48,"endTime":102.296,"body":"design for living that has profoundly affected my life."},{"startTime":102.368,"endTime":106.184,"body":"And when something like that happens, I eventually get like a lump in"},{"startTime":106.192,"endTime":109.792,"body":"my throat and I'm like, oh, I actually need to share this"},{"startTime":109.976,"endTime":113.712,"body":"with people because if it deepens and improves their lives the way"},{"startTime":113.736,"endTime":117.264,"body":"it has mine, then it will be well worth the effort. So"},{"startTime":117.432,"endTime":121.28,"body":"I'm glad you see it as an extension because it's just, I think, part of"},{"startTime":121.32,"endTime":124.96,"body":"a portfolio of writing that has"},{"startTime":125.0,"endTime":128.3,"body":"all had the same intention, which is"},{"startTime":128.76,"endTime":132.576,"body":"to help people enter into a deeper conversation with their lives"},{"startTime":132.648,"endTime":135.848,"body":"and improve them. Yeah. So it helps you."},{"startTime":135.904,"endTime":139.752,"body":"So you bought the product and it changed your life and so"},{"startTime":139.856,"endTime":143.384,"body":"you want to share it with everybody. Yeah. Well, that's what happened with the"},{"startTime":143.392,"endTime":147.08,"body":"Enneagram too. Right? Right. So along those lines, in the very"},{"startTime":147.12,"endTime":150.872,"body":"first chapter, it's the introductory chapter, you say this book is about much"},{"startTime":150.896,"endTime":154.568,"body":"more than finding recovery from addictions. It's a deeper exploration"},{"startTime":154.664,"endTime":158.456,"body":"into the. And you put this in caps. The big ache that fuels"},{"startTime":158.488,"endTime":162.29,"body":"addictions and other self defeating behaviors and how we can"},{"startTime":162.33,"endTime":166.082,"body":"fix it. How we can't fix it, at least not by ourselves. But"},{"startTime":166.106,"endTime":169.538,"body":"this exploration will be teeming with hope. Because the"},{"startTime":169.594,"endTime":173.442,"body":"solution to what ails us is always within reach and has been"},{"startTime":173.466,"endTime":177.218,"body":"hidden in plain sight all along. I think it's important to start"},{"startTime":177.274,"endTime":180.546,"body":"there in this conversation because you do such a good job. As the subtitle"},{"startTime":180.578,"endTime":184.274,"body":"implies, that the 12 steps in this Design"},{"startTime":184.362,"endTime":188.028,"body":"for Living, as the big book calls it is, is really"},{"startTime":188.084,"endTime":191.884,"body":"for everyone. And it's easy for people maybe at the start of this podcast"},{"startTime":191.932,"endTime":195.708,"body":"to kind of tune out subtly or by hitting stop by thinking, okay, I'm"},{"startTime":195.724,"endTime":199.276,"body":"not an addict, but everybody's an addict. Unpack"},{"startTime":199.308,"endTime":202.32,"body":"that. Yeah, So, I mean, listen,"},{"startTime":202.9,"endTime":206.476,"body":"let's just, let's define an addiction. And I think you and I share"},{"startTime":206.548,"endTime":210.316,"body":"a common definition, right? That an addiction is a"},{"startTime":210.388,"endTime":213.612,"body":"compulsive, unhealthy relationship with a person, a"},{"startTime":213.636,"endTime":217.446,"body":"behavior or a substance that has mood altering effects"},{"startTime":217.478,"endTime":221.27,"body":"and negative consequences. Now, I don't know"},{"startTime":221.31,"endTime":224.966,"body":"anybody who doesn't have a relationship with some person,"},{"startTime":225.038,"endTime":228.646,"body":"behavior or substance with mood altering"},{"startTime":228.678,"endTime":232.31,"body":"effect and negative consequences, right? I mean, human beings are wired for"},{"startTime":232.35,"endTime":235.974,"body":"addiction, right? We are neurologically vulnerable"},{"startTime":236.102,"endTime":239.734,"body":"for addiction. And if you don't have an addiction, you're just one click"},{"startTime":239.782,"endTime":243.612,"body":"away from it, trust me. Right? Like, it's just. It's just"},{"startTime":243.636,"endTime":247.42,"body":"how it goes, right? Spiritually speaking, I think we're also set up for it,"},{"startTime":247.46,"endTime":250.68,"body":"right? We are people that"},{"startTime":251.78,"endTime":255.212,"body":"seek comfort and pleasure, and we are averse to pain and"},{"startTime":255.236,"endTime":257.836,"body":"distress. And so we find"},{"startTime":257.908,"endTime":261.228,"body":"workarounds to make our lives more tolerable"},{"startTime":261.324,"endTime":265.084,"body":"apart from God. God's involvement in our lives and"},{"startTime":265.172,"endTime":268.45,"body":"whether that can take the form of drugs, alcohol,"},{"startTime":268.58,"endTime":271.53,"body":"porn, people pleasing workaholism,"},{"startTime":272.27,"endTime":275.41,"body":"you name it. I mean, there's a catalog of"},{"startTime":275.87,"endTime":279.286,"body":"addictions that is too long to enumerate, right?"},{"startTime":279.438,"endTime":283.078,"body":"So I think that this book is for everyone because"},{"startTime":283.214,"endTime":286.838,"body":"the 12 steps go beyond just a,"},{"startTime":286.974,"endTime":290.774,"body":"you know, here's a set of instructions for stopping your"},{"startTime":290.862,"endTime":294.534,"body":"addictive behaviors. That's just the beginning. It's"},{"startTime":294.582,"endTime":297.994,"body":"really about a whole lifestyle of living in a"},{"startTime":298.082,"endTime":301.07,"body":"posture of God reliance. Versus self reliance,"},{"startTime":302.21,"endTime":305.37,"body":"which for anyone that has been around Christian"},{"startTime":305.45,"endTime":308.698,"body":"churches or around religion, one would"},{"startTime":308.754,"endTime":311.754,"body":"think that that statement about God"},{"startTime":311.802,"endTime":315.514,"body":"reliance and deepening the spiritual life would be something"},{"startTime":315.602,"endTime":319.37,"body":"that we would want. And yet you can't get through the"},{"startTime":319.41,"endTime":323.242,"body":"12 steps very far. You can't get to step number two without the"},{"startTime":323.266,"endTime":326.574,"body":"admission of powerlessness. And"},{"startTime":326.742,"endTime":330.27,"body":"in the religious tradition that you and I share, a lot"},{"startTime":330.31,"endTime":333.934,"body":"of the movement into that life of"},{"startTime":334.022,"endTime":337.518,"body":"religion or faith was admitting your"},{"startTime":337.574,"endTime":341.246,"body":"badness, admitting your sinfulness. And then"},{"startTime":341.318,"endTime":344.41,"body":"by that confession, somehow God accepted you."},{"startTime":344.71,"endTime":348.446,"body":"And that's a little bit different. Shift in the 12 steps."},{"startTime":348.638,"endTime":352.094,"body":"It's about powerlessness and our inability to rescue"},{"startTime":352.142,"endTime":355.952,"body":"ourselves. So talk a little bit about that. Yeah, well, I"},{"startTime":355.976,"endTime":359.648,"body":"mean, listen, if there's one thing we can say about the 12"},{"startTime":359.704,"endTime":362.86,"body":"steps, it's that it's not a self help program."},{"startTime":363.24,"endTime":366.992,"body":"Right. Like, if yourself could have helped yourself by now, wouldn't yourself"},{"startTime":367.056,"endTime":370.1,"body":"have already done it? Like, it just doesn't make any sense."},{"startTime":372.36,"endTime":376.192,"body":"So, I mean, powerlessness, the"},{"startTime":376.216,"endTime":379.216,"body":"admission of powerlessness in the face of our"},{"startTime":379.368,"endTime":383.05,"body":"brokenness is the. The beginning of"},{"startTime":383.09,"endTime":386.762,"body":"the great adventure. Right. Some people arrive"},{"startTime":386.826,"endTime":390.49,"body":"there beaten up and bedraggled. Other people get"},{"startTime":390.53,"endTime":393.31,"body":"there incrementally or slowly, more quickly."},{"startTime":393.81,"endTime":397.45,"body":"But what happens when we admit that we're powerless is"},{"startTime":397.49,"endTime":401.29,"body":"suddenly and paradoxically we're infused with a kind of"},{"startTime":401.33,"endTime":405.162,"body":"power that we didn't know was available to us until we gave"},{"startTime":405.226,"endTime":409.044,"body":"up. Right. So giving up. Right. We oftentimes"},{"startTime":409.092,"endTime":412.772,"body":"say in 12 step programs, as you know. Right. Like steps one to three can"},{"startTime":412.796,"endTime":416.308,"body":"be stated as step one, I can't."},{"startTime":416.404,"endTime":420.132,"body":"Step two, God can. Step three, I think I'll let"},{"startTime":420.156,"endTime":423.28,"body":"him. Now, that just sounds like the gospel to me."},{"startTime":423.82,"endTime":427.38,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":427.46,"endTime":431.076,"body":"And we want to nail it down with chapters and verses"},{"startTime":431.108,"endTime":434.756,"body":"and certainty. And part of the surrender to our."},{"startTime":434.828,"endTime":438.052,"body":"And admitting our powerlessness is actually kind of opening ourselves to"},{"startTime":438.076,"endTime":441.632,"body":"mystery, that there's not just a linear. You know, the"},{"startTime":441.656,"endTime":445.488,"body":"interesting thing about the steps, as I've worked them over the years and"},{"startTime":445.544,"endTime":449.232,"body":"been involved in recovery, is that they're called steps and"},{"startTime":449.256,"endTime":452.64,"body":"they're practical and they're concrete, and yet it's a very mysterious"},{"startTime":452.72,"endTime":456.128,"body":"process of something that actually happens to us"},{"startTime":456.264,"endTime":459.6,"body":"instead of something that we do. I want to back"},{"startTime":459.64,"endTime":463.232,"body":"up, and I don't say this to flatter you. You know, our relationship is"},{"startTime":463.256,"endTime":466.992,"body":"beyond flattering. I just, I just love this about you, that you have this"},{"startTime":467.016,"endTime":470.306,"body":"wonderful gift of writing and this way with words"},{"startTime":470.418,"endTime":474.21,"body":"that I think is really rare. And one of the things you do"},{"startTime":474.25,"endTime":478.066,"body":"throughout the book, but especially in the beginning, is you just name"},{"startTime":478.138,"endTime":481.89,"body":"things for people. And as you have seen, you communicate in"},{"startTime":481.93,"endTime":485.586,"body":"small groups and large groups and, you know, church settings, you name"},{"startTime":485.658,"endTime":489.17,"body":"things for people in such a way where people go, yeah, yeah, that's my"},{"startTime":489.21,"endTime":492.962,"body":"experience. And you wrote these three brief sentences that I just want to"},{"startTime":492.986,"endTime":496.742,"body":"say repeat and then just let you comment on them"},{"startTime":496.846,"endTime":500.21,"body":"as it relates to your own story. Because"},{"startTime":501.31,"endTime":505.142,"body":"there's something very different about this book, even though I said there's a thread from"},{"startTime":505.166,"endTime":508.822,"body":"the others, and that is that you are way more vulnerable"},{"startTime":508.886,"endTime":512.582,"body":"and personal to the point of, should I"},{"startTime":512.606,"endTime":516.006,"body":"really do this? And so the words are, you Said"},{"startTime":516.158,"endTime":519.29,"body":"most of us are uncomfortable in our own skin,"},{"startTime":519.96,"endTime":523.52,"body":"in the world around us, and we're troubled by a sense of"},{"startTime":523.56,"endTime":527.312,"body":"incompleteness. And that's been your story that you"},{"startTime":527.336,"endTime":530.8,"body":"put words to. So tell me about why you would"},{"startTime":530.92,"endTime":533.5,"body":"share your story in this kind of a way."},{"startTime":534.44,"endTime":537.952,"body":"Yeah. Just to be frank, right. I opened the book by talking about a"},{"startTime":537.976,"endTime":541.52,"body":"relapse that I had in 2020 that sent me to treatment."},{"startTime":541.6,"endTime":544.912,"body":"And that was in many ways the"},{"startTime":544.936,"endTime":547.74,"body":"catalyst for writing this book."},{"startTime":548.68,"endTime":552.06,"body":"And, you know,"},{"startTime":552.76,"endTime":555.968,"body":"I think there's a universal"},{"startTime":556.064,"endTime":559.664,"body":"experience which is all of us feel like fractions,"},{"startTime":559.792,"endTime":563.552,"body":"yearning to become whole numbers. You know what I mean? Like, there"},{"startTime":563.576,"endTime":567.056,"body":"is a sense of incompleteness, a sense of lack"},{"startTime":567.088,"endTime":570.672,"body":"of wholeness, and we"},{"startTime":570.696,"endTime":574.528,"body":"yearn for it just in our bowels. I mean, it's"},{"startTime":574.544,"endTime":577.48,"body":"just. It's deep inside of us. And"},{"startTime":579.54,"endTime":582.508,"body":"that kind of dis ease or"},{"startTime":582.564,"endTime":586.364,"body":"existential unrest,"},{"startTime":586.492,"endTime":590.268,"body":"right. In quietude just follows human beings. It's"},{"startTime":590.284,"endTime":592.68,"body":"just our baseline. And"},{"startTime":593.86,"endTime":597.628,"body":"that's one of the reasons we go looking for fixes, right? We go"},{"startTime":597.684,"endTime":601.26,"body":"looking for things to numb the ache, the big ache, the"},{"startTime":601.3,"endTime":604.636,"body":"feeling that something's missing, that something is"},{"startTime":604.708,"endTime":608.414,"body":"awry inside. And so much of"},{"startTime":608.582,"endTime":612.382,"body":"addiction recovery and actually all of spirituality is about, what am"},{"startTime":612.406,"endTime":616.046,"body":"I going to do with this emptiness? What am I going to do with"},{"startTime":616.118,"endTime":619.662,"body":"this existential dis ease"},{"startTime":619.806,"endTime":622.37,"body":"that simmers inside?"},{"startTime":623.59,"endTime":627.438,"body":"And, you know, so recovery is about learning"},{"startTime":627.534,"endTime":631.038,"body":"how to live life on life's terms, to live"},{"startTime":631.094,"endTime":634.812,"body":"life with that ever present sense. And now, I don't want to make"},{"startTime":634.836,"endTime":638.092,"body":"this sound glum. It's not really. It's just"},{"startTime":638.116,"endTime":641.564,"body":"reality. Right. And because reality wins"},{"startTime":641.612,"endTime":645.26,"body":"100% of the time, I got to figure out how to dance with it in"},{"startTime":645.3,"endTime":649.068,"body":"a better way than I have before. Yeah. So thank"},{"startTime":649.084,"endTime":652.908,"body":"you again for responding to that. But even the phrase we all feel"},{"startTime":652.964,"endTime":656.46,"body":"like fractions and we long to become whole, that is just so, so"},{"startTime":656.5,"endTime":660.12,"body":"descriptive. And as soon as you said that, I was like, yeah, yeah, that's it."},{"startTime":660.54,"endTime":664.388,"body":"So you're saying with this universal idea that not only we're"},{"startTime":664.404,"endTime":667.732,"body":"all addicts, but we all have this existential longing, this"},{"startTime":667.756,"endTime":671.14,"body":"emptiness where we're a fraction and not whole,"},{"startTime":671.3,"endTime":675.14,"body":"and we all do something in an attempt to"},{"startTime":675.18,"endTime":678.18,"body":"become whole that's actually counterproductive, that"},{"startTime":678.22,"endTime":681.828,"body":"backfires, that comes to enslave us"},{"startTime":681.964,"endTime":685.12,"body":"and get a hold of us, which is what the addiction aspect is."},{"startTime":685.58,"endTime":689.044,"body":"Say a little bit about, just in terms of your personal story, how that began"},{"startTime":689.092,"endTime":692.57,"body":"to happen to you in 2020 and"},{"startTime":692.61,"endTime":696.394,"body":"before, as opposed to the sobriety that you had, you know, two or"},{"startTime":696.402,"endTime":699.978,"body":"three decades ago because you make a statement in the book saying that. That"},{"startTime":700.034,"endTime":703.882,"body":"sobriety and the recovery work you did. I think you said it this way, that"},{"startTime":703.906,"endTime":707.386,"body":"you didn't really get the 12 steps. There was something about it that didn't"},{"startTime":707.498,"endTime":710.71,"body":"sink in to the place where it has this time,"},{"startTime":711.97,"endTime":715.77,"body":"relative to before. Yeah, I mean, I think the first time around,"},{"startTime":715.81,"endTime":717.67,"body":"I'd say I was auditing the class."},{"startTime":719.85,"endTime":723.058,"body":"I didn't really sign up for credit. You know what I mean? And I don't"},{"startTime":723.074,"endTime":726.898,"body":"think I consciously did that. I wasn't ducking anything. It was. I think it actually"},{"startTime":726.954,"endTime":729.858,"body":"was part and parcel of some of the problems that got me into the rooms"},{"startTime":729.874,"endTime":733.522,"body":"in the first place, which is. I just didn't quite feel"},{"startTime":733.546,"endTime":737.362,"body":"like I belonged. And I. You know, I sit in rooms and I"},{"startTime":737.466,"endTime":740.802,"body":"hear the steps, and I learned a lot about 12 step. I read a lot"},{"startTime":740.826,"endTime":744.332,"body":"about it. I studied it. I. But."},{"startTime":744.436,"endTime":748.028,"body":"But in terms of really living the program, I just. I just."},{"startTime":748.164,"endTime":751.692,"body":"I don't think I was. I just didn't. You know,"},{"startTime":751.876,"endTime":755.212,"body":"I could give lectures on it, but I just wasn't living it."},{"startTime":755.396,"endTime":758.972,"body":"Second time around, they took on a new color and"},{"startTime":758.996,"endTime":762.796,"body":"vibrancy in. In my life. And maybe, you know, it's like when the student"},{"startTime":762.828,"endTime":766.268,"body":"is ready, the teacher appears. Right. I suddenly was ready to go."},{"startTime":766.324,"endTime":769.972,"body":"Oh, now I get it. And"},{"startTime":770.156,"endTime":774.004,"body":"so I don't. I don't know. I kind"},{"startTime":774.012,"endTime":777.732,"body":"of see. I kind of see that relapse is a really great gift, you"},{"startTime":777.756,"endTime":781.572,"body":"know, a really beautiful gift. And it takes a minute to see it that way."},{"startTime":781.676,"endTime":785.46,"body":"Yeah, but. But. But I do now. I see it as being like"},{"startTime":785.5,"endTime":788.58,"body":"a. I don't see it as being some sort of, like,"},{"startTime":788.62,"endTime":792.356,"body":"catastrophic failure on my part. I think that's ridiculous."},{"startTime":792.388,"endTime":795.956,"body":"That's actually my ego talking. If that's. If that's what's going on."},{"startTime":796.108,"endTime":799.894,"body":"I see it more as a moment in time when God invited"},{"startTime":799.942,"endTime":803.542,"body":"me into a deeper place of intimacy with him. And this was the mechanism through"},{"startTime":803.566,"endTime":807.206,"body":"which it happened. That is a pretty radical"},{"startTime":807.318,"endTime":810.662,"body":"but resonant way of thinking about this"},{"startTime":810.846,"endTime":814.662,"body":"because it's filled with compassion. And the"},{"startTime":814.686,"endTime":818.13,"body":"sensibility of that is like, yeah, that's the kind of God that"},{"startTime":818.51,"endTime":822.214,"body":"I want to be attached to versus that, you know, you screwed up,"},{"startTime":822.302,"endTime":826.01,"body":"or that any one of our relapses or, you know, back. Back"},{"startTime":826.05,"endTime":829.706,"body":"step or something like that is somehow offending God or he's deeply"},{"startTime":829.738,"endTime":833.482,"body":"disappointed with us. When you're actually able to"},{"startTime":833.506,"endTime":836.522,"body":"say that it's a gift. I want to just sit with that for a minute."},{"startTime":836.666,"endTime":840.346,"body":"So can I just say one thing about that? Yeah. Yeah, so it's"},{"startTime":840.378,"endTime":844.218,"body":"very curious to me. Like, you know, I've"},{"startTime":844.234,"endTime":847.59,"body":"had. There's been a number of people who have read the manuscript, and"},{"startTime":848.77,"endTime":851.83,"body":"the only people who sometimes give me"},{"startTime":852.33,"endTime":856.114,"body":"just a kind of hint of shame or, you know, you"},{"startTime":856.122,"endTime":859.698,"body":"know, you should. Oh, that's, that's really not good. You know, whatever are"},{"startTime":859.754,"endTime":862.91,"body":"Christians. And I'm like, wait a second now, hold on a second."},{"startTime":863.53,"endTime":866.93,"body":"Are we reading the same book? Are we reading the same"},{"startTime":866.97,"endTime":870.69,"body":"Bible? Like, why would any of this surprise us that we make"},{"startTime":870.73,"endTime":874.13,"body":"mistakes that. And that we're learning on the journey of life?"},{"startTime":874.25,"endTime":878.034,"body":"Right. I was just thinking, I was listening this morning to Prince's"},{"startTime":878.082,"endTime":881.826,"body":"song Let's Go Crazy, you know, and I love the opening line. Dearly"},{"startTime":881.858,"endTime":884.97,"body":"beloved, we are gathered here today to"},{"startTime":885.35,"endTime":889.102,"body":"get through this thing called life. And"},{"startTime":889.126,"endTime":892.942,"body":"I'm like, you know, like, I don't know why this should"},{"startTime":892.966,"endTime":896.462,"body":"be a surprise, right? To people that people, you know, have missteps and"},{"startTime":896.486,"endTime":900.174,"body":"misadventures on the spiritual journey. And I'm."},{"startTime":900.222,"endTime":903.902,"body":"I'm not exempt from them. And what's so"},{"startTime":903.926,"endTime":907.022,"body":"funny is, is the people that are the most compassionate,"},{"startTime":907.086,"endTime":909.89,"body":"accepting, caring, gracious, excited,"},{"startTime":910.19,"endTime":914.006,"body":"thrilled, encouraging. They're people in the basements"},{"startTime":914.038,"endTime":917.702,"body":"of churches. They're not upstairs, they're downstairs in the basement where they have"},{"startTime":917.726,"endTime":921.174,"body":"12 step meetings together. It's just,"},{"startTime":921.342,"endTime":924.982,"body":"you know, it just, again, this isn't a"},{"startTime":925.006,"endTime":928.39,"body":"universal experience. Not every Christian has been this way, but a couple have been like"},{"startTime":928.43,"endTime":932.118,"body":"a little bit like finger waggy. And I'm like, oh,"},{"startTime":932.214,"endTime":935.702,"body":"isn't that interesting? The very people who should be most gracious and kind"},{"startTime":935.806,"endTime":938.98,"body":"and excited to hear what you learned"},{"startTime":939.48,"endTime":943.232,"body":"are the ones who place barriers between me and grace."},{"startTime":943.296,"endTime":946.42,"body":"And I'm like, no, I'm not going to co sign that crap."},{"startTime":947.32,"endTime":950.832,"body":"That's so good. So you talked about the church basements and you"},{"startTime":950.856,"endTime":954.288,"body":"know, that is a metaphor, but it's also where so many 12 step"},{"startTime":954.344,"endTime":958.112,"body":"meetings take place. Two of the ones that I've been a part"},{"startTime":958.136,"endTime":961.472,"body":"of in recent years are in church basements. But you write in the book how"},{"startTime":961.496,"endTime":965.338,"body":"Bill Wilson, the co founder of AA, the original 12"},{"startTime":965.394,"endTime":968.698,"body":"step group, said that the 12 steps are as"},{"startTime":968.754,"endTime":972.202,"body":"applicable to the people up in the church sanctuary as the people in the"},{"startTime":972.226,"endTime":976.026,"body":"basement. And that's kind of what we're talking about, right? And that's part about"},{"startTime":976.098,"endTime":979.402,"body":"that. This book is for the well adjusted, the down and out, and everyone in"},{"startTime":979.426,"endTime":983.194,"body":"between. The well adjusted may be the people that are the"},{"startTime":983.202,"endTime":986.826,"body":"ones wagging the finger at you. Right. The quote, unquote, well adjusted."},{"startTime":986.938,"endTime":990.228,"body":"Right. So as"},{"startTime":990.284,"endTime":994.052,"body":"a seminary graduate and as somebody that speaks to"},{"startTime":994.076,"endTime":997.604,"body":"churches and organizations with lots of Christian and religious"},{"startTime":997.652,"endTime":1001.3,"body":"people, what's your hope"},{"startTime":1001.34,"endTime":1005.092,"body":"for that well adjusted person who may or may"},{"startTime":1005.116,"endTime":1008.82,"body":"not be a finger wagger but really feels like life is working pretty well"},{"startTime":1008.86,"endTime":1012.692,"body":"for me or somehow like"},{"startTime":1012.716,"endTime":1016.542,"body":"I would never darken those steps to go down into the basement."},{"startTime":1016.606,"endTime":1020.43,"body":"That's not for me. What would your hope be for them if they have this"},{"startTime":1020.47,"endTime":1024.27,"body":"book and they've not yet picked it up yet? Yeah. I think"},{"startTime":1024.39,"endTime":1027.758,"body":"my hope would be that they would recognize that the 12 steps offer"},{"startTime":1027.814,"endTime":1031.502,"body":"them a program for living that they"},{"startTime":1031.606,"endTime":1035.342,"body":"previously didn't have and that they can derive the same benefits from the"},{"startTime":1035.366,"endTime":1038.766,"body":"Steps in terms of living a life of"},{"startTime":1038.838,"endTime":1042.458,"body":"purposefulness, usefulness, of intimacy with"},{"startTime":1042.514,"endTime":1045.994,"body":"God greater than they've ever had before, that the people downstairs in the"},{"startTime":1046.002,"endTime":1049.834,"body":"basement experience on a pretty regular basis. Right."},{"startTime":1049.922,"endTime":1053.274,"body":"I'm not, I don't want to romanticize and, you know,"},{"startTime":1053.362,"endTime":1057.162,"body":"lionize everyone in the basement that they're the most amazing, they're all saints because"},{"startTime":1057.186,"endTime":1060.762,"body":"some of them are jerks too. Right. So, I mean, but they're, but at least"},{"startTime":1060.786,"endTime":1064.35,"body":"they're jerks on a path. Right. Trying to be less jerk."},{"startTime":1065.17,"endTime":1068.472,"body":"That's been my experience. Right. 99% of the time."},{"startTime":1068.586,"endTime":1072.252,"body":"And, but, but also, maybe"},{"startTime":1072.316,"endTime":1076.076,"body":"to also get in touch that demographic"},{"startTime":1076.108,"endTime":1079.548,"body":"might get in touch with the unmanageability"},{"startTime":1079.724,"endTime":1083.468,"body":"and the really"},{"startTime":1083.524,"endTime":1087.084,"body":"the direness of their situation, that they may be out of touch with"},{"startTime":1087.252,"endTime":1090.876,"body":"that, that, that they too have maybe"},{"startTime":1090.908,"endTime":1094.64,"body":"living with a level of quiet desperation that they've just"},{"startTime":1094.74,"endTime":1098.392,"body":"been in so long that they don't even know they're there. Right. And that they"},{"startTime":1098.416,"endTime":1101.54,"body":"recognize the Steps as a solution to that problem."},{"startTime":1103.28,"endTime":1106.824,"body":"I was having breakfast yesterday and I shared this with you yesterday,"},{"startTime":1106.872,"endTime":1110.424,"body":"actually with a man that we both know from the men's"},{"startTime":1110.472,"endTime":1114.152,"body":"intensive weekend that we do. He's one of the volunteer staff guys and he was"},{"startTime":1114.176,"endTime":1117.752,"body":"sharing about how he's in a space in his life where the"},{"startTime":1117.776,"endTime":1121.474,"body":"organization that he's worked for for a while in his own personal"},{"startTime":1121.562,"endTime":1124.67,"body":"journey, that they seem farther and farther apart. Like"},{"startTime":1125.21,"endTime":1128.53,"body":"it's hard for him to feel like he belongs there. And not"},{"startTime":1128.57,"endTime":1132.29,"body":"relationally speaking, but more kind of the DNA. And you wrote that"},{"startTime":1132.33,"endTime":1136.178,"body":"my old version of Christianity had failed me. And you"},{"startTime":1136.234,"endTime":1139.33,"body":"came to see that your conception of God was terribly confused and"},{"startTime":1139.37,"endTime":1142.882,"body":"distorted. And that's again written by a guy with a Master of"},{"startTime":1142.906,"endTime":1146.37,"body":"Divinity and a whole bunch of doctoral classes at one of the top universities"},{"startTime":1146.45,"endTime":1149.7,"body":"and a writer of five books. What was"},{"startTime":1149.74,"endTime":1152.98,"body":"distorted and confused or"},{"startTime":1153.02,"endTime":1156.5,"body":"unhealthy about your understanding of God and Not like"},{"startTime":1156.54,"endTime":1160.212,"body":"doctrinally what the beliefs that you had, but like the inner, the inner,"},{"startTime":1160.276,"endTime":1162.0,"body":"you know, experience and"},{"startTime":1164.06,"endTime":1167.6,"body":"core there. Yeah. You know,"},{"startTime":1168.78,"endTime":1172.436,"body":"as we all know, right. So often the conception, the mental"},{"startTime":1172.468,"endTime":1176.236,"body":"conception that we have of God is deeply formed by the relationship"},{"startTime":1176.268,"endTime":1179.756,"body":"we have with our caretakers in early childhood. Right."},{"startTime":1179.908,"endTime":1183.58,"body":"And, you know, I"},{"startTime":1183.62,"endTime":1187.276,"body":"grew up in a really alcoholic, drug addicted"},{"startTime":1187.308,"endTime":1190.892,"body":"home and it was very chaotic and my parents"},{"startTime":1190.956,"endTime":1194.396,"body":"were, you know, mentally ill and deeply"},{"startTime":1194.508,"endTime":1198.14,"body":"distressed and distracted by their own problems, which made parenting"},{"startTime":1198.22,"endTime":1200.6,"body":"very, very spotty and difficult at best."},{"startTime":1201.92,"endTime":1205.672,"body":"And I think the feeling I came"},{"startTime":1205.696,"endTime":1209.32,"body":"to realize that I have is that God always saw me as"},{"startTime":1209.36,"endTime":1213.048,"body":"a pest. You know what I mean? Like, God always saw me"},{"startTime":1213.104,"endTime":1215.944,"body":"as being like, oh, gosh, here he is again, you know what I mean? Like,"},{"startTime":1216.032,"endTime":1219.768,"body":"because that's how my parents responded to me as a kid growing up,"},{"startTime":1219.824,"endTime":1223.656,"body":"you know, it's like, it's like he's got another problem, you know, it's like, boy,"},{"startTime":1223.688,"endTime":1226.408,"body":"we don't have time for more problems. We got enough problems as it is. Right."},{"startTime":1226.464,"endTime":1230.254,"body":"And it's, it's. And I think that was just one facet of"},{"startTime":1230.262,"endTime":1231.57,"body":"the distorted"},{"startTime":1233.51,"endTime":1237.214,"body":"conception that I had about who God is and how God sees"},{"startTime":1237.262,"endTime":1241.07,"body":"me. And, you know, it takes a while"},{"startTime":1241.11,"endTime":1244.238,"body":"to rinse that stuff out of the system, you know,"},{"startTime":1244.374,"endTime":1248.222,"body":"and to begin to realize that God doesn't see me as"},{"startTime":1248.246,"endTime":1251.582,"body":"a pest, which was the experience I had with my parents, you"},{"startTime":1251.606,"endTime":1255.402,"body":"know, And I think it doesn't matter how"},{"startTime":1255.426,"endTime":1259.098,"body":"many degrees you have or years you have or"},{"startTime":1259.154,"endTime":1262.762,"body":"anything else, we're always having to be in the"},{"startTime":1262.786,"endTime":1266.586,"body":"process of updating our operating systems, understanding"},{"startTime":1266.618,"endTime":1268.23,"body":"of God, you know,"},{"startTime":1270.29,"endTime":1273.866,"body":"and I think that's just part of the adventure. You know, it's always"},{"startTime":1273.938,"endTime":1277.69,"body":"like, oh, there's a dimension of God's character I just didn't see"},{"startTime":1277.73,"endTime":1281.452,"body":"before. And because, you know, this"},{"startTime":1281.476,"endTime":1284.988,"body":"is a program about spiritual awakening and awakening doesn't happen"},{"startTime":1285.124,"endTime":1288.86,"body":"instantaneously. Right. It often happens over a long period"},{"startTime":1288.9,"endTime":1292.652,"body":"of time. That's been my experience anyway. Yeah. So I"},{"startTime":1292.676,"endTime":1296.252,"body":"want to ask you a question as a friend and then I'd like you to"},{"startTime":1296.276,"endTime":1299.692,"body":"Respond as a 12 step member and a therapist, you"},{"startTime":1299.716,"endTime":1303.532,"body":"know, priest, pastor, through the"},{"startTime":1303.556,"endTime":1306.906,"body":"decades that we've known each other, you know, from the very first time"},{"startTime":1307.058,"endTime":1310.682,"body":"we met when you came to school here in Denver, we actually met prior to"},{"startTime":1310.706,"endTime":1314.282,"body":"that and I knew of you through young life. We instantly connected"},{"startTime":1314.346,"endTime":1318.09,"body":"over personal growth and spiritual growth and depth."},{"startTime":1318.17,"endTime":1321.562,"body":"And we went to lunch the first time back in 1990,"},{"startTime":1321.746,"endTime":1325.322,"body":"early 90s, and you know, we had this deep conversation about the Brothers"},{"startTime":1325.386,"endTime":1329.13,"body":"Karamazov and Gabriel Garcia Marquez and how"},{"startTime":1329.17,"endTime":1332.984,"body":"it stirred our hearts and, and what were the implications"},{"startTime":1333.032,"endTime":1336.776,"body":"of that for life and relationships? And, you know, you've gone to conferences and I've"},{"startTime":1336.808,"endTime":1339.992,"body":"gone to conferences and we've been in therapy and we've shared all of that struggle"},{"startTime":1340.056,"endTime":1342.5,"body":"in life together. And then"},{"startTime":1343.52,"endTime":1346.632,"body":"2020 comes and you go to"},{"startTime":1346.656,"endTime":1350.424,"body":"treatment. And I have had conversations"},{"startTime":1350.472,"endTime":1354.232,"body":"with so many people over the last couple of weeks, just"},{"startTime":1354.256,"endTime":1358.098,"body":"in particular, who I've had the privilege of working with"},{"startTime":1358.154,"endTime":1361.922,"body":"for 3, 4, 5 years in different capacities. And"},{"startTime":1361.946,"endTime":1365.794,"body":"they're like, I can't believe I'm still here. I can't believe I'm still struggling"},{"startTime":1365.842,"endTime":1369.154,"body":"with this. Or they'll reach out to me with a text message"},{"startTime":1369.202,"endTime":1372.866,"body":"and prayer request or say, will you call me back? And this happened"},{"startTime":1372.898,"endTime":1375.87,"body":"again. And they're just beating themselves up."},{"startTime":1376.57,"endTime":1379.31,"body":"And I guess my question to you is,"},{"startTime":1382.42,"endTime":1385.72,"body":"why does it take so very long"},{"startTime":1386.02,"endTime":1389.692,"body":"for change to happen? I heard you say"},{"startTime":1389.716,"endTime":1393.26,"body":"that our degrees and our intelligence and"},{"startTime":1393.38,"endTime":1397.196,"body":"the amount of work we do doesn't"},{"startTime":1397.228,"endTime":1400.876,"body":"determine it. But it seemed like there was this catalyst that something"},{"startTime":1400.948,"endTime":1404.476,"body":"happened where in the four years since"},{"startTime":1404.628,"endTime":1408.3,"body":"you went to treatment, I think my observation has"},{"startTime":1408.34,"endTime":1411.932,"body":"been that, that you have grown profoundly and"},{"startTime":1412.036,"endTime":1415.64,"body":"deeply through this particular kind of work"},{"startTime":1415.94,"endTime":1419.452,"body":"that feels like it's built on top of everything else. So I guess,"},{"startTime":1419.596,"endTime":1422.748,"body":"I guess as a friend I want to say, what would you say to my"},{"startTime":1422.804,"endTime":1426.492,"body":"friends that are beating themselves up so badly and wondering why"},{"startTime":1426.516,"endTime":1430.332,"body":"they're still not any different? Yeah, you"},{"startTime":1430.356,"endTime":1434.14,"body":"know, sometimes I'll have like a sponsor or someone come"},{"startTime":1434.18,"endTime":1437.612,"body":"to me and they'll be like, oh man, I'm the worst of all sinners. And"},{"startTime":1437.636,"endTime":1439.28,"body":"I'm like, don't flatter yourself."},{"startTime":1442.56,"endTime":1446.152,"body":"Not to mention the fact that sometimes the worst of all sinners, you know, the"},{"startTime":1446.176,"endTime":1450.024,"body":"St. Augustine's of the world and others, usually have such a profound experience of grace"},{"startTime":1450.072,"endTime":1453.8,"body":"as a result of their missteps and misadventures that they"},{"startTime":1453.84,"endTime":1457.416,"body":"end up becoming our greatest saints. You know, So, I mean, it's"},{"startTime":1457.448,"endTime":1461.208,"body":"like, I don't know, like, it seems"},{"startTime":1461.224,"endTime":1465.064,"body":"to me that what we tend to think is that"},{"startTime":1465.152,"endTime":1468.716,"body":"growth and transformation in the spiritual life should"},{"startTime":1468.788,"endTime":1472.236,"body":"happen on a, on a straight line"},{"startTime":1472.308,"endTime":1475.948,"body":"graph. But the truth of the matter is it's a squiggly graph and"},{"startTime":1476.004,"endTime":1479.836,"body":"you just have to watch the direct, the trend. Right. Am I trending upward"},{"startTime":1479.868,"endTime":1483.084,"body":"or am I trending downward? Right. And along the way you're gonna have ups and"},{"startTime":1483.092,"endTime":1486.588,"body":"downs, but you gotta just keep looking at the, at the overall trajectory of the,"},{"startTime":1486.644,"endTime":1490.492,"body":"of the, of the graph. Right. And you"},{"startTime":1490.516,"endTime":1494.156,"body":"Know, it's. I sort of liken my spiritual life sometimes to the stock market,"},{"startTime":1494.228,"endTime":1498.012,"body":"right? It's like, you know, it has updates, it has down days, but just watch"},{"startTime":1498.036,"endTime":1501.852,"body":"the trend line. Where is it going over a"},{"startTime":1501.876,"endTime":1505.02,"body":"long period of time? Not where is it going over the course of two days?"},{"startTime":1505.06,"endTime":1508.652,"body":"And people tend to get too microscopic and self evaluation, right? They get like,"},{"startTime":1508.676,"endTime":1512.076,"body":"okay, at this moment, I can't believe I'm doing this again. It's like, well, pull"},{"startTime":1512.108,"endTime":1515.868,"body":"back on the lens and step back and look at the overall trend line"},{"startTime":1515.924,"endTime":1519.692,"body":"and make whatever evaluations or judgments you"},{"startTime":1519.716,"endTime":1523.482,"body":"want to make on that basis. And not only that, but,"},{"startTime":1523.506,"endTime":1527.082,"body":"you know, Mike, I sometimes wonder who am I even to come up to"},{"startTime":1527.266,"endTime":1530.71,"body":"have the audacity to say,"},{"startTime":1532.93,"endTime":1535.07,"body":"to accurately,"},{"startTime":1536.77,"endTime":1540.55,"body":"you know, self analyze my growth, you know, like,"},{"startTime":1541.89,"endTime":1545.43,"body":"I don't even know if I'm, you know, qualified to do that."},{"startTime":1546.13,"endTime":1549.572,"body":"So I don't know. I guess what I would say to those folks"},{"startTime":1549.636,"endTime":1553.38,"body":"is it's going to take a minute. It's just going to take"},{"startTime":1553.42,"endTime":1557.172,"body":"a minute. Everything takes infinitely longer than you thought it was going to at the"},{"startTime":1557.196,"endTime":1560.964,"body":"beginning of the adventure, right? Every time, yeah, I"},{"startTime":1560.972,"endTime":1563.84,"body":"think about the Lord of the Rings, you know, and they're trying to get to"},{"startTime":1564.14,"endTime":1567.06,"body":"Mordor or whatever it is with the Ring, you know, and every time they turn"},{"startTime":1567.1,"endTime":1570.596,"body":"around, there's another mountain to climb, there's another hill, there's"},{"startTime":1570.628,"endTime":1573.808,"body":"another group of, you know,"},{"startTime":1573.944,"endTime":1577.664,"body":"orcs with daggers waiting. You know, it's like, yeah, well, that's just how it"},{"startTime":1577.672,"endTime":1581.456,"body":"is. Yeah. Yeah. And two things strike"},{"startTime":1581.488,"endTime":1585.312,"body":"me in this conversation. One is that how, you"},{"startTime":1585.336,"endTime":1589.088,"body":"know, even as I asked you to speak to them, the beauty of the 12"},{"startTime":1589.144,"endTime":1592.32,"body":"steps is that it's not just steps that you read about in a book, and"},{"startTime":1592.36,"endTime":1595.424,"body":"hopefully people will read it in your book, but that it's highly"},{"startTime":1595.472,"endTime":1599.152,"body":"relational, that the key ingredient, the secret sauce, if you"},{"startTime":1599.176,"endTime":1602.72,"body":"will, is that 12 step groups have really nailed the idea of"},{"startTime":1602.76,"endTime":1606.572,"body":"community. That, you know, you can pick up the phone and call a"},{"startTime":1606.596,"endTime":1610.38,"body":"group member, a sponsor, a fellow in the program and say,"},{"startTime":1610.42,"endTime":1613.244,"body":"here's what I'm struggling with, or here's what I want to do, or here's what"},{"startTime":1613.252,"endTime":1616.956,"body":"I just did do, and you're going to get compassion and"},{"startTime":1617.028,"endTime":1620.748,"body":"acceptance and like, yeah, me too, kind of thing."},{"startTime":1620.804,"endTime":1624.52,"body":"And you offered that in your response. The other thing is that"},{"startTime":1624.9,"endTime":1628.54,"body":"that struggle, at least within myself about, you know, why am I still here?"},{"startTime":1628.66,"endTime":1632.442,"body":"Why did I screw up? It's about the ego. And you make"},{"startTime":1632.466,"endTime":1636.17,"body":"a profound statement toward the end of the book where you say that"},{"startTime":1636.21,"endTime":1639.722,"body":"whenever we're thinking about ourselves, that that's the"},{"startTime":1639.746,"endTime":1643.466,"body":"ego. And that we get to a place"},{"startTime":1643.538,"endTime":1647.13,"body":"where when we begin to accept the fact that this"},{"startTime":1647.17,"endTime":1650.63,"body":"ego is there and always looking out for our own self interest, that"},{"startTime":1651.25,"endTime":1654.474,"body":"our ego actually becomes our friend. Completely"},{"startTime":1654.522,"endTime":1658.172,"body":"counterintuitive. So talk about that. Well, I"},{"startTime":1658.196,"endTime":1661.692,"body":"mean, look, you know, the ego"},{"startTime":1661.756,"endTime":1664.76,"body":"isn't bad per se. It just needs our help."},{"startTime":1666.5,"endTime":1670.172,"body":"It just needs good leadership. It just needs our help. Right?"},{"startTime":1670.356,"endTime":1674.076,"body":"The ego is that narcissistic, crazy little voice in your head"},{"startTime":1674.148,"endTime":1677.692,"body":"that is, you know, wants you to believe that you're God, that you're in"},{"startTime":1677.716,"endTime":1681.452,"body":"charge and that you have the answers, that you're in control, that"},{"startTime":1681.476,"endTime":1685.272,"body":"your life is manageable. And it's like, you know, always whispering in"},{"startTime":1685.296,"endTime":1688.696,"body":"your ear, like, it's okay, baby, we got this, right? And it's"},{"startTime":1688.728,"endTime":1691.8,"body":"like. And then proceeds to make a mess out of your life,"},{"startTime":1691.92,"endTime":1695.56,"body":"right? And that small self, that ego"},{"startTime":1695.64,"endTime":1699.144,"body":"self, it's just an insecure, lost,"},{"startTime":1699.312,"endTime":1702.952,"body":"frightened part of us that wants to take the reins from"},{"startTime":1702.976,"endTime":1706.392,"body":"God and from, you know, from life. And, you"},{"startTime":1706.416,"endTime":1710.088,"body":"know, we just have to learn to spot when"},{"startTime":1710.144,"endTime":1713.884,"body":"that impish little creature has taken the wheel of"},{"startTime":1713.892,"endTime":1717.548,"body":"the bus again, you know, and that has to happen multiple times"},{"startTime":1717.604,"endTime":1720.764,"body":"throughout the day. You know, like, I'll give you an example. Someone asked me, how"},{"startTime":1720.772,"endTime":1722.892,"body":"do you know when your ego is in control? Someone said this to me once."},{"startTime":1722.916,"endTime":1726.604,"body":"I said, I'm easily offended. Like, I'll go into a store"},{"startTime":1726.652,"endTime":1730.06,"body":"and someone will say something in a snippy voice. I'll be like, I beg your"},{"startTime":1730.1,"endTime":1733.66,"body":"pardon? You know what I mean? And then I'm like, oh, look who's here."},{"startTime":1733.78,"endTime":1737.308,"body":"The ego, that little part of me that just, you know. Yeah. So when I'm"},{"startTime":1737.324,"endTime":1740.54,"body":"easily offended, when I become frustrated because"},{"startTime":1740.84,"endTime":1744.608,"body":"my day didn't go precisely as I planned,"},{"startTime":1744.784,"endTime":1748.0,"body":"you know what I mean? And I become frustrated. It's like, oh, there it is."},{"startTime":1748.04,"endTime":1751.808,"body":"There's my ego again. And at those moments I have steps, right,"},{"startTime":1751.864,"endTime":1755.664,"body":"that I can take to not kill the ego"},{"startTime":1755.712,"endTime":1759.168,"body":"or destroy the ego, but really more to, right,"},{"startTime":1759.224,"endTime":1762.88,"body":"size it, you know, like to be able to look at it and go,"},{"startTime":1762.92,"endTime":1766.52,"body":"oh, hello. And I see that you think that life should"},{"startTime":1766.56,"endTime":1770.312,"body":"cooperate with all of your wonderful plans. And it's not going to do that today."},{"startTime":1770.416,"endTime":1774.056,"body":"And so we're just going to like, get. We're going to reduce the swelling"},{"startTime":1774.088,"endTime":1777.816,"body":"here on our ego and learn to roll with what life"},{"startTime":1777.888,"endTime":1781.5,"body":"is throwing at us with them and do so with emotional balance."},{"startTime":1781.84,"endTime":1785.512,"body":"That's just what the steps do. They kind of give us these tools"},{"startTime":1785.656,"endTime":1789.48,"body":"on many, many Many, many levels to be able to"},{"startTime":1789.6,"endTime":1793.244,"body":"just navigate our inner and outer worlds in much more"},{"startTime":1793.332,"endTime":1797.052,"body":"wise and loving ways. Ian, which of"},{"startTime":1797.076,"endTime":1800.748,"body":"the steps has been the most difficult for you? And I'm"},{"startTime":1800.764,"endTime":1804.588,"body":"guessing that you'd probably start with the first step of admitting you're"},{"startTime":1804.604,"endTime":1808.188,"body":"powerless and that your life became unmanageable. Well, that actually came pretty"},{"startTime":1808.204,"endTime":1811.772,"body":"easy this time around. But, you know, but"},{"startTime":1811.796,"endTime":1814.972,"body":"unmanageability is a tough one for some people. Like. Like, because they look at their"},{"startTime":1814.996,"endTime":1817.664,"body":"lives and they think, well, I mean, I've got two cars in the garage. I"},{"startTime":1817.672,"endTime":1821.024,"body":"got a nice house. I've got a retirement account. I'm, you know, I'm kind of"},{"startTime":1821.032,"endTime":1824.848,"body":"crushing it at work or, you know, I got my health. I haven't"},{"startTime":1824.864,"endTime":1828.496,"body":"gotten divorced. I haven't. You know, they just come up with a list of reasons"},{"startTime":1828.528,"endTime":1832.016,"body":"their life is managed but manage. You know, unmanageability can take many, many forms,"},{"startTime":1832.048,"endTime":1835.024,"body":"right? Like, I tell people all the time, like, okay, so you didn't lose all"},{"startTime":1835.032,"endTime":1838.58,"body":"your stuff, but how's your emotional life? Is your, Are your emotions unmanageable?"},{"startTime":1839.0,"endTime":1842.496,"body":"Like, you know, is your anxiety unmanageable? Is your depression"},{"startTime":1842.528,"endTime":1845.536,"body":"unmanageable? Is your rage and anger outbursts"},{"startTime":1845.568,"endTime":1849.376,"body":"unmanageable? How about maybe, maybe you don't like the word unmanageable."},{"startTime":1849.408,"endTime":1853.248,"body":"Let's try the word intolerable. Is your life intolerable right now? You know, it's like,"},{"startTime":1853.384,"endTime":1856.592,"body":"there's just a lot of ways to play with unmanageability to get people to see"},{"startTime":1856.616,"endTime":1860.112,"body":"it, you know, I don't know. Hard steps for"},{"startTime":1860.136,"endTime":1863.712,"body":"me. Well, I mean, I"},{"startTime":1863.736,"endTime":1867.552,"body":"think, you know, there's no"},{"startTime":1867.576,"endTime":1870.86,"body":"question, and this is hard for everybody, I think, is 8 and 9"},{"startTime":1871.48,"endTime":1874.608,"body":"made a list of all people we had harmed and became willing to make amends"},{"startTime":1874.624,"endTime":1878.312,"body":"to them all as step eight. And then step nine is made direct amends to"},{"startTime":1878.336,"endTime":1882.12,"body":"such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or"},{"startTime":1882.16,"endTime":1885.976,"body":"others. And in the book, you know, I say, look, I, I, you know, I've"},{"startTime":1886.008,"endTime":1888.632,"body":"made. I made a list of all the people that I had harmed, not just"},{"startTime":1888.656,"endTime":1892.376,"body":"in my active addiction, but ever, right? That's what the steps do. The steps"},{"startTime":1892.408,"endTime":1896.232,"body":"don't just say when you were using or drinking or overeating or whatever your"},{"startTime":1896.256,"endTime":1900.008,"body":"thing is, right? Like, it's like, just write down the names"},{"startTime":1900.024,"endTime":1903.706,"body":"of everybody you've ever. You've ever harmed, right? And then"},{"startTime":1903.778,"endTime":1907.434,"body":"become willing to make amends to them all. Well, part of what makes that difficult"},{"startTime":1907.482,"endTime":1910.522,"body":"is I got a couple of people and I have a separate list that I"},{"startTime":1910.546,"endTime":1914.17,"body":"call hell no, I'm never forgiving that schmuck list. You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1914.21,"endTime":1917.834,"body":"Like, like I am never gonna go make amends to that"},{"startTime":1917.842,"endTime":1921.386,"body":"person because that person hurt me infinitely more than I ever hurt them. Right."},{"startTime":1921.458,"endTime":1925.05,"body":"Like, like your, your pride. And who, who's that by the way?"},{"startTime":1925.09,"endTime":1928.922,"body":"Oh, there's the ego again. There's the ego going into self protection mode,"},{"startTime":1928.986,"endTime":1932.73,"body":"you know, taking the moral high ground, making judgments about who hurt who"},{"startTime":1932.77,"endTime":1936.492,"body":"worse. You. And it's like that's a hard."},{"startTime":1936.596,"endTime":1939.548,"body":"So I do have a couple of people left on my list, you know, that"},{"startTime":1939.604,"endTime":1942.956,"body":"I'm. And I talk about this in the book. Like how do you deal with"},{"startTime":1943.028,"endTime":1946.412,"body":"those types of people in your life? What kinds of"},{"startTime":1946.436,"endTime":1950.188,"body":"practices can you begin to engage to try and"},{"startTime":1950.244,"endTime":1953.932,"body":"soften and warm your heart toward people that you feel hurt you more than"},{"startTime":1953.956,"endTime":1957.804,"body":"you hurt in the past? But it's so important, Mike, So"},{"startTime":1957.892,"endTime":1961.51,"body":"to think of it this way, the way I break down the steps"},{"startTime":1961.67,"endTime":1965.462,"body":"is you have. The first three steps are"},{"startTime":1965.486,"endTime":1969.062,"body":"about repairing your relationship with God or clarifying"},{"startTime":1969.126,"endTime":1972.838,"body":"or you know, re engaging or whatever the word"},{"startTime":1972.854,"endTime":1976.502,"body":"is you want to use. Then four through seven are really"},{"startTime":1976.526,"endTime":1979.61,"body":"about repairing your relationship with yourself."},{"startTime":1980.19,"endTime":1983.65,"body":"And then 8 and 9 about repairing relationships with others."},{"startTime":1984.19,"endTime":1987.596,"body":"And then 10 through 12 is how do I cultivate a lifestyle"},{"startTime":1987.758,"endTime":1991.568,"body":"that promotes and supports health"},{"startTime":1991.704,"endTime":1995.392,"body":"in each of those domains of my life going forward? Right."},{"startTime":1995.496,"endTime":1999.056,"body":"So it's a simple program, it's not easy, but it's pretty simple."},{"startTime":1999.168,"endTime":2002.72,"body":"Right. And you"},{"startTime":2002.76,"endTime":2006.464,"body":"know, if you can work on each of"},{"startTime":2006.472,"endTime":2010.192,"body":"those domains discreetly and then together and do so"},{"startTime":2010.216,"endTime":2013.072,"body":"on an ongoing basis, you're going to have something that's going to turn out to"},{"startTime":2013.096,"endTime":2016.818,"body":"look like a gospel life. That's pretty"},{"startTime":2016.834,"endTime":2020.642,"body":"exciting, right? To have a plan. Okay, I got a plan. Here's the"},{"startTime":2020.666,"endTime":2024.498,"body":"plan. I'm going to organize my life around living these"},{"startTime":2024.554,"endTime":2027.762,"body":"steps and in so doing, I'm going to live a"},{"startTime":2027.786,"endTime":2031.346,"body":"surrendered, compassionate, self aware life"},{"startTime":2031.498,"endTime":2035.026,"body":"and I'm going to move through the world with a lot less friction and"},{"startTime":2035.178,"endTime":2038.77,"body":"being more of an addition than a subtraction to people's experience around"},{"startTime":2038.81,"endTime":2042.562,"body":"me. Say that again if you can. The"},{"startTime":2042.586,"endTime":2046.194,"body":"whole thing. I'm going to live a surrendered"},{"startTime":2046.242,"endTime":2049.954,"body":"life and move through the world this way. Because those are such compelling"},{"startTime":2050.002,"endTime":2053.794,"body":"words that I think the person that's listening to this that's gone to"},{"startTime":2053.802,"endTime":2057.138,"body":"church the longest and read the most self help books, they're going, I want"},{"startTime":2057.194,"endTime":2060.706,"body":"that. And most people haven't found that until they"},{"startTime":2060.778,"endTime":2064.514,"body":"encounter this or some other kind of spiritual path"},{"startTime":2064.562,"endTime":2068.156,"body":"out of the ashes. Yeah, I mean, look,"},{"startTime":2068.308,"endTime":2070.76,"body":"this is about integration. This is about,"},{"startTime":2072.1,"endTime":2075.82,"body":"okay, so your typical person in a church pew or whatever their"},{"startTime":2075.86,"endTime":2079.58,"body":"spiritual orientation is wherever they go, you know, like"},{"startTime":2079.7,"endTime":2083.164,"body":"if you were to turn to them and say, what's your plan for spiritual"},{"startTime":2083.212,"endTime":2086.972,"body":"transformation? They would go, well, they would come up with"},{"startTime":2086.996,"endTime":2090.604,"body":"a vague description of things they do, right? I go to church, I got a"},{"startTime":2090.612,"endTime":2094.252,"body":"small group and I read my Bible and I pray, you know, it's like,"},{"startTime":2094.276,"endTime":2096.796,"body":"okay, great. And those are all good things. I don't want to put it down."},{"startTime":2096.868,"endTime":2100.578,"body":"No shame. But you don't have a plan. Like you're just"},{"startTime":2100.634,"endTime":2104.242,"body":"vaguely swimming around doing a couple of things, but you don't have a"},{"startTime":2104.266,"endTime":2107.75,"body":"plan. And one of the things I love about the 12 steps"},{"startTime":2108.57,"endTime":2112.418,"body":"is that they provide us with a roadmap, right? Like,"},{"startTime":2112.474,"endTime":2116.018,"body":"here's a plan. I'm not saying it's the plan. I'm not saying it's the"},{"startTime":2116.074,"endTime":2119.762,"body":"only plan. All I'm saying is, guess what? Here's a"},{"startTime":2119.866,"endTime":2123.538,"body":"time tested, evidence based plan that has literally saved the lives"},{"startTime":2123.594,"endTime":2127.02,"body":"of tens of millions of people, maybe more. And"},{"startTime":2127.8,"endTime":2131.34,"body":"what they have derived from this, you can too."},{"startTime":2132.04,"endTime":2135.34,"body":"And you can have a plan that you can"},{"startTime":2136.04,"endTime":2138.82,"body":"get to work on and begin to realize"},{"startTime":2139.8,"endTime":2143.36,"body":"a level of spiritual awakening and intimacy with"},{"startTime":2143.4,"endTime":2145.74,"body":"God that you didn't know existed before."},{"startTime":2148.12,"endTime":2151.26,"body":"I can personally relate to the fact that"},{"startTime":2151.88,"endTime":2155.33,"body":"like you, I have been a religious professional. And"},{"startTime":2155.37,"endTime":2159.11,"body":"until I had an encounter with the 12 steps"},{"startTime":2159.93,"endTime":2162.63,"body":"more recently than I would have liked to admit,"},{"startTime":2163.53,"endTime":2167.25,"body":"I don't think I had that kind of spiritual awakening. I wouldn't have used that"},{"startTime":2167.29,"endTime":2171.042,"body":"language. I would say spiritual conversion many years ago. I"},{"startTime":2171.066,"endTime":2174.722,"body":"would say that I've experienced significant moments of transformation, but I"},{"startTime":2174.746,"endTime":2178.514,"body":"wouldn't say spiritual awakening. And that was something that I don't"},{"startTime":2178.562,"endTime":2182.262,"body":"even think I knew I needed. And you're saying"},{"startTime":2182.366,"endTime":2186.15,"body":"that can be the end result in the process? Yeah. Well,"},{"startTime":2186.19,"endTime":2189.83,"body":"actually, Mike, Bill Wilson, the guy who wrote the 12"},{"startTime":2189.87,"endTime":2193.494,"body":"steps, actually says that the whole point, bottom"},{"startTime":2193.542,"endTime":2197.158,"body":"line, no editorial. The bottom line is"},{"startTime":2197.214,"endTime":2200.054,"body":"the 12 steps are designed to"},{"startTime":2200.222,"endTime":2203.99,"body":"facilitate a spiritual awakening of sufficient"},{"startTime":2204.07,"endTime":2207.44,"body":"force that it renders our need for"},{"startTime":2208.62,"endTime":2212.004,"body":"numbing substances. You know, substances, behaviors,"},{"startTime":2212.052,"endTime":2214.92,"body":"relationships unnecessary."},{"startTime":2215.26,"endTime":2218.244,"body":"Right? And suddenly we are no longer"},{"startTime":2218.292,"endTime":2221.716,"body":"egocentric as a result of working those steps. We become theo"},{"startTime":2221.748,"endTime":2225.2,"body":"centric. God centric, right. And"},{"startTime":2225.5,"endTime":2228.788,"body":"when you do that, then suddenly your, your need"},{"startTime":2228.844,"endTime":2232.67,"body":"to have other ways of coping with life, that"},{"startTime":2232.71,"endTime":2236.49,"body":"need is expelled, right? And"},{"startTime":2236.87,"endTime":2240.062,"body":"suddenly you find yourself living on a spiritual versus an ego"},{"startTime":2240.126,"endTime":2243.854,"body":"basis. This is just gospel, right? This is like"},{"startTime":2243.942,"endTime":2246.158,"body":"people say to me all the time, I don't know about the 12 steps because"},{"startTime":2246.214,"endTime":2249.53,"body":"maybe it's not like a Christian. I'm like, are you out of your mind?"},{"startTime":2249.83,"endTime":2253.342,"body":"This is just the gospel in 12 steps. That's all this"},{"startTime":2253.366,"endTime":2256.99,"body":"is. It's completely continuous. It just"},{"startTime":2257.03,"endTime":2260.812,"body":"is devoid of all the gilded theological language we"},{"startTime":2260.836,"endTime":2264.316,"body":"tend to throw around. It's just very, very basic. It's like,"},{"startTime":2264.468,"endTime":2267.42,"body":"here it is, right? Get right with God, get right with yourself, get right with"},{"startTime":2267.46,"endTime":2271.116,"body":"other people, and then keep it up. Start over, right? Just keep doing that,"},{"startTime":2271.188,"endTime":2275.0,"body":"right? And it's like, oh, that sounds like Jesus to me."},{"startTime":2276.18,"endTime":2279.964,"body":"Wow, this is. This is so good. I know you have a little bit"},{"startTime":2279.972,"endTime":2283.148,"body":"of time, but. So I want to transition toward talking about"},{"startTime":2283.204,"endTime":2286.972,"body":"steps 10 and 11. Step four"},{"startTime":2286.996,"endTime":2290.732,"body":"is that we made a fearless and searching moral inventory of"},{"startTime":2290.756,"endTime":2294.572,"body":"ourselves. So we basically take account. We list what"},{"startTime":2294.596,"endTime":2298.3,"body":"the 12 steps call character defects. Or as you talked about"},{"startTime":2298.34,"endTime":2302.076,"body":"in the book, you'd like to refer to them as character defenses. Because sometimes"},{"startTime":2302.108,"endTime":2305.452,"body":"people coming in with such shame, the idea of character defects, they're not able"},{"startTime":2305.476,"endTime":2309.292,"body":"to almost tolerate that yet. But step 10 then takes that"},{"startTime":2309.316,"endTime":2312.828,"body":"idea of taking inventory, and it says that we continue to take personal"},{"startTime":2312.884,"endTime":2316.46,"body":"inventory and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it. And. And that feeds right"},{"startTime":2316.5,"endTime":2319.884,"body":"into step 11, which I'd really like. This is what I'd like us to kind"},{"startTime":2319.892,"endTime":2323.292,"body":"of end on here as we land the plane of this conversation. Step 11 sought"},{"startTime":2323.356,"endTime":2327.18,"body":"through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious"},{"startTime":2327.26,"endTime":2330.748,"body":"contact with God as we understood God, praying only"},{"startTime":2330.884,"endTime":2334.28,"body":"for knowledge of his will and the power to carry that out."},{"startTime":2334.58,"endTime":2337.964,"body":"What does that look like for you? On a daily, weekly"},{"startTime":2338.012,"endTime":2341.532,"body":"basis, this idea of continuing to take inventory and"},{"startTime":2341.556,"endTime":2344.88,"body":"then to develop conscious contact with God?"},{"startTime":2345.22,"endTime":2348.716,"body":"Yeah, well, you know, it's interesting, right? Like, when we talk about having a spiritual"},{"startTime":2348.748,"endTime":2352.092,"body":"awakening, some people tend to think, oh, well, I'm waiting for the moment. Right."},{"startTime":2352.196,"endTime":2355.404,"body":"Actually, I think what the steps do is set us up"},{"startTime":2355.572,"endTime":2358.956,"body":"for serial spiritual"},{"startTime":2358.988,"endTime":2361.8,"body":"awakenings, right? Some that are"},{"startTime":2362.18,"endTime":2366.028,"body":"quite dramatic and others that are just sort of the"},{"startTime":2366.084,"endTime":2369.57,"body":"daily little surprises, Right? Because,"},{"startTime":2369.87,"endTime":2373.69,"body":"you know, Anthony D'Mello, the Jesuit teacher,"},{"startTime":2374.67,"endTime":2378.134,"body":"he once said that spirituality is waking"},{"startTime":2378.182,"endTime":2381.846,"body":"up. That is how he defines spirituality. It's about waking"},{"startTime":2381.878,"endTime":2385.686,"body":"up. And so our participation in that"},{"startTime":2385.758,"endTime":2389.318,"body":"is engaging in"},{"startTime":2389.374,"endTime":2392.918,"body":"practices that will improve and awaken"},{"startTime":2393.014,"endTime":2396.864,"body":"us to the immediacy of God's"},{"startTime":2396.912,"endTime":2400.54,"body":"presence in and around us, Right."},{"startTime":2401.08,"endTime":2404.784,"body":"And to then align ourselves with whatever it is that God"},{"startTime":2404.832,"endTime":2408.656,"body":"is up to in any given moment. Right. And to cooperate"},{"startTime":2408.688,"endTime":2412.464,"body":"with it, to be with it, to be used"},{"startTime":2412.552,"endTime":2416.352,"body":"as an instrument in the midst of it. Right. So"},{"startTime":2416.376,"endTime":2420.112,"body":"for me, you know, I just do what I'm told, you Know, by"},{"startTime":2420.136,"endTime":2423.888,"body":"my sponsor and by teachers in the past, man. My day begins"},{"startTime":2423.904,"endTime":2427.522,"body":"with prayer and meditation. It begins with journaling. It"},{"startTime":2427.546,"endTime":2431.314,"body":"begins with, you know, there's a. Interestingly, the first thing that comes to"},{"startTime":2431.322,"endTime":2434.066,"body":"my mind every morning. And I'm not saying this. This is just out of force"},{"startTime":2434.098,"endTime":2437.938,"body":"of habit, right? But. But the first thing I think of in the morning"},{"startTime":2437.994,"endTime":2441.682,"body":"are two prayers that I say in bed before I put my feet on the"},{"startTime":2441.706,"endTime":2445.442,"body":"ground, right? The first one is, open my lips, O"},{"startTime":2445.466,"endTime":2449.09,"body":"Lord, and my mouth shall proclaim your praise. Create in me a clean heart,"},{"startTime":2449.13,"endTime":2452.85,"body":"O God, and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from"},{"startTime":2452.89,"endTime":2456.562,"body":"your presence and take not your holy spirit from me. Give me the joy of"},{"startTime":2456.586,"endTime":2460.302,"body":"your help again and sustain me with your bountiful spirit. That's the"},{"startTime":2460.326,"endTime":2463.69,"body":"first prayer. Second prayer is from the third step"},{"startTime":2463.99,"endTime":2467.662,"body":"in the Big Book of aa. It's, God, I offer myself to"},{"startTime":2467.686,"endTime":2471.25,"body":"thee, to build with me and to do with me as thou wilt."},{"startTime":2471.83,"endTime":2475.63,"body":"Relieve me of the bondage of self that I may"},{"startTime":2475.67,"endTime":2479.23,"body":"better do thy will. I mean,"},{"startTime":2479.35,"endTime":2483.054,"body":"these are just the immediate things that I do first thing in the"},{"startTime":2483.062,"endTime":2486.554,"body":"morning, right? Like to make sure that I get up"},{"startTime":2486.642,"endTime":2490.23,"body":"and that my footing is"},{"startTime":2490.93,"endTime":2494.778,"body":"right because, you know, life"},{"startTime":2494.834,"endTime":2498.65,"body":"presents us with adversity and difficulties, and"},{"startTime":2498.69,"endTime":2502.442,"body":"I have to set myself up for the highest probability of success from"},{"startTime":2502.466,"endTime":2505.13,"body":"the moment I open my eyes to the moment I go to sleep at night,"},{"startTime":2505.17,"endTime":2508.666,"body":"right? And so there are practices that I do, but I'm always"},{"startTime":2508.738,"endTime":2512.428,"body":"thinking, I hope, you know, how do I keep"},{"startTime":2512.484,"endTime":2516.22,"body":"coming back to the presence of God in this moment"},{"startTime":2516.38,"endTime":2519.48,"body":"and what he's up to, and how do I join Him?"},{"startTime":2520.82,"endTime":2524.364,"body":"That is a good place to end. Although I wish that we could have another"},{"startTime":2524.452,"endTime":2528.14,"body":"five of these conversations to release to our listeners. I'm so,"},{"startTime":2528.18,"endTime":2531.964,"body":"so thankful for the hard work that you put in with writing"},{"startTime":2532.012,"endTime":2535.532,"body":"this book. I'm so thankful for your personal disclosure and"},{"startTime":2535.556,"endTime":2539.356,"body":"vulnerability, and I'm trusting and hoping that"},{"startTime":2539.428,"endTime":2543.26,"body":"this message gets out to so many people."},{"startTime":2543.38,"endTime":2546.844,"body":"So thank you, Ian, and we'll talk again soon."},{"startTime":2547.012,"endTime":2547.66,"body":"Thanks, Michael."}]}