{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.32,"endTime":3.768,"body":"Hi, Restoring the Soul. Friends, it's Michael. Welcome back to"},{"startTime":3.824,"endTime":7.448,"body":"another podcast. Today I am talking with"},{"startTime":7.504,"endTime":10.84,"body":"my friend AJ Denson. Hi, aj. Welcome."},{"startTime":11.0,"endTime":14.728,"body":"Hello. Good to be here. AJ Is a man"},{"startTime":14.784,"endTime":18.344,"body":"who I met as he staffs our men's"},{"startTime":18.392,"endTime":22.056,"body":"Restoring the Soul weekend. He is from Texas. And"},{"startTime":22.208,"endTime":25.672,"body":"as Sacred Attachment has rolled out, he and I"},{"startTime":25.696,"endTime":29.412,"body":"began rolling around the idea of whether"},{"startTime":29.516,"endTime":33.22,"body":"it would be fun to have him interview me. And"},{"startTime":33.34,"endTime":37.092,"body":"very quickly I answered. It would be fun. Logistically, it's been hard to make that"},{"startTime":37.116,"endTime":40.932,"body":"happen. So here we are online in two separate states, and I'm just"},{"startTime":40.956,"endTime":44.452,"body":"going to let you take it away as you pick my brain about"},{"startTime":44.556,"endTime":48.212,"body":"Sacred Attachment. Awesome. Yeah. And I'm so glad we're doing this, by the way. This"},{"startTime":48.236,"endTime":51.14,"body":"is. This really is going to be fun. Oh, man, it's going to be a"},{"startTime":51.18,"endTime":54.404,"body":"blast. I'm honored to be a part of it. So, yeah, yeah, we'll get right"},{"startTime":54.412,"endTime":58.052,"body":"into it. I know even in reading the book,"},{"startTime":58.156,"endTime":62.004,"body":"there's this overall theme. I mean, the title, obviously, Sacred Attachment,"},{"startTime":62.052,"endTime":65.828,"body":"what a beautiful image for it. But chapter one starts with"},{"startTime":65.884,"endTime":69.524,"body":"spinning, and I thought that was an interesting title"},{"startTime":69.572,"endTime":72.996,"body":"for that chapter. What brought you to make it? Not just"},{"startTime":73.068,"endTime":76.852,"body":"obviously you have a story that involves spinning, but tell"},{"startTime":76.876,"endTime":80.34,"body":"me more about what brings you to that place of"},{"startTime":80.38,"endTime":84.224,"body":"spinning and how that inspired it. Well, I'm going to riff here for a"},{"startTime":84.232,"endTime":87.92,"body":"minute because as people ask different questions and I've never actually"},{"startTime":87.96,"endTime":91.472,"body":"been asked that question related to the book, it makes me think of"},{"startTime":91.576,"endTime":95.072,"body":"when I was a little boy. We had a lot of books in our"},{"startTime":95.096,"endTime":98.688,"body":"home. There wasn't a lot of education in our home."},{"startTime":98.744,"endTime":102.26,"body":"Neither of my parents went to college, but my dad was a voracious reader."},{"startTime":102.6,"endTime":106.432,"body":"And I had this book that I took on my shelf in my bedroom. And"},{"startTime":106.456,"endTime":109.232,"body":"I don't even remember if I read it, but I liked the title and it"},{"startTime":109.256,"endTime":112.552,"body":"was called Stop the World, I Want to Get Off. And I think that"},{"startTime":112.576,"endTime":115.72,"body":"was some kind of popular self help book in the early"},{"startTime":115.76,"endTime":119.272,"body":"1970s. But I remember that image of the world"},{"startTime":119.376,"endTime":122.968,"body":"spinning and I want off. I want out of here."},{"startTime":123.024,"endTime":126.312,"body":"And I think even before I became a believer, there was this sense that the"},{"startTime":126.336,"endTime":130.136,"body":"world is not my home and my life feels like it's"},{"startTime":130.168,"endTime":133.832,"body":"spinning constantly. And so it's a metaphor for both, I"},{"startTime":133.856,"endTime":137.48,"body":"think, the reality of when we're honest and"},{"startTime":137.52,"endTime":140.936,"body":"when we pause about what is happening in the world around"},{"startTime":141.008,"endTime":144.488,"body":"us. The normal pains and"},{"startTime":144.544,"endTime":147.928,"body":"disappointments of relationships, certainly in the midst of joys"},{"startTime":148.024,"endTime":151.56,"body":"and all of the good things in life. But life is"},{"startTime":151.68,"endTime":155.384,"body":"hard. And so it's a metaphor for spinning. And then"},{"startTime":155.472,"endTime":159.256,"body":"the second level is how in later parts of the book I talk about"},{"startTime":159.328,"endTime":162.728,"body":"how there's a three"},{"startTime":162.864,"endTime":166.52,"body":"step process in life that I call the"},{"startTime":166.56,"endTime":170.112,"body":"rhythm of heaven, or I've referred to it as the rhythm of the"},{"startTime":170.136,"endTime":173.84,"body":"kingdom. And that's this idea that there's life as we know it,"},{"startTime":173.96,"endTime":177.312,"body":"there's life as we'd rather not have it, and then there's something new that"},{"startTime":177.336,"endTime":180.58,"body":"emerges. And Walter Brueggemann, the theologian,"},{"startTime":181.08,"endTime":184.288,"body":"referred to this as orientation, disorientation,"},{"startTime":184.384,"endTime":187.664,"body":"reorientation. Richard Rohr has called this order,"},{"startTime":187.752,"endTime":191.024,"body":"disorder, reorder. One of my pastors, Larry"},{"startTime":191.072,"endTime":194.18,"body":"Renaud, called this thrive, dive, revive."},{"startTime":194.54,"endTime":198.196,"body":"And regardless of what we call it, it's a pattern that's clearly"},{"startTime":198.228,"endTime":201.892,"body":"in Scripture. Brueggeman said that you can look at most of the Psalms and"},{"startTime":201.916,"endTime":204.964,"body":"you see some starting point either in orientation,"},{"startTime":205.092,"endTime":208.932,"body":"disorientation or reorientation. And it usually takes you through that"},{"startTime":208.956,"endTime":212.18,"body":"kind of process. And that life is not static. And that can be a really"},{"startTime":212.22,"endTime":215.54,"body":"hopeful thing. God is fluid and dynamic and"},{"startTime":215.58,"endTime":219.348,"body":"generative. And therefore that in and of itself is hopeful. But"},{"startTime":219.404,"endTime":223.172,"body":"finally it's the image of the story that opens the book. And"},{"startTime":223.196,"endTime":226.836,"body":"that is where I'm four years old and I'm inadvertently placed"},{"startTime":226.868,"endTime":230.516,"body":"into a cabinet, not unlike the Narnia cabinet, but a different"},{"startTime":230.588,"endTime":233.956,"body":"size at a convent where my aunt is a cloistered"},{"startTime":233.988,"endTime":237.332,"body":"nun. And this cabinet, as you open up the doors,"},{"startTime":237.476,"endTime":241.284,"body":"inside of it was a lazy Susan kind of a canister that spun"},{"startTime":241.332,"endTime":244.756,"body":"around and these cloistered nuns who could not have"},{"startTime":244.828,"endTime":248.632,"body":"touch or physical contact with the public. And one"},{"startTime":248.656,"endTime":251.62,"body":"of them was my nun, my aunt, Sister Ann."},{"startTime":252.32,"endTime":255.992,"body":"I was placed into this cabinet and spun around by my brother, six"},{"startTime":256.016,"endTime":259.784,"body":"years older than me. And I was terrified. And"},{"startTime":259.872,"endTime":263.64,"body":"I never forgot this four year old memory. And as I was writing the book,"},{"startTime":263.68,"endTime":266.952,"body":"I actually called the convent. And of those nuns that were there in"},{"startTime":266.976,"endTime":270.312,"body":"1968 when I was four, there's seven that are"},{"startTime":270.336,"endTime":273.88,"body":"alive. And Sister Bernadette from Slovakia is still"},{"startTime":273.92,"endTime":277.62,"body":"alive. And I called her and I said, did this really happen or I'm"},{"startTime":277.7,"endTime":281.316,"body":"making this up? She said, no, no, that, that happened. So I spun"},{"startTime":281.348,"endTime":284.804,"body":"around in this cabinet and the door finally opened"},{"startTime":284.852,"endTime":288.66,"body":"after what felt like many, many minutes of terror. And"},{"startTime":288.7,"endTime":292.34,"body":"instead of the door opening to my brother, pulling me out back into this"},{"startTime":292.38,"endTime":295.812,"body":"parlor where the visitors were on the side that couldn't be with the"},{"startTime":295.836,"endTime":299.572,"body":"nuns, the door opened and there was my aunt, Sister Anne, this"},{"startTime":299.596,"endTime":302.974,"body":"cloistered nun, dressed in her nun habit. And"},{"startTime":303.062,"endTime":306.91,"body":"she pulled me out and hugged me and ran her fingers through"},{"startTime":306.95,"endTime":310.43,"body":"my hair. And then what happened next was there were 16 other"},{"startTime":310.47,"endTime":314.222,"body":"nuns there and they pushed some chairs out of the way. And these nuns that"},{"startTime":314.246,"endTime":317.982,"body":"could have no contact with the public, they were behind this"},{"startTime":318.086,"endTime":321.742,"body":"metal grill, they began to dance with"},{"startTime":321.766,"endTime":325.614,"body":"me, ring around the rosie, and we sang songs and each of"},{"startTime":325.622,"endTime":329.006,"body":"them picked me up and hugged me and kissed my cheeks and ran their fingers"},{"startTime":329.038,"endTime":332.668,"body":"through my hair. And I tell that story in the book because"},{"startTime":332.724,"endTime":336.444,"body":"that was the very same year that my uncle began to sexually abuse"},{"startTime":336.492,"endTime":340.332,"body":"me and traffic me to other men. And that led to"},{"startTime":340.356,"endTime":344.172,"body":"a long experience over a number of years of sexual abuse, which led to my"},{"startTime":344.196,"endTime":347.96,"body":"sex addiction and a number of other addictions in my life."},{"startTime":348.42,"endTime":352.14,"body":"And that picture of spinning is not just"},{"startTime":352.18,"endTime":355.932,"body":"the disorientation and the disorder, but it's a picture of"},{"startTime":355.956,"endTime":359.24,"body":"how at the end of that spinning, from a"},{"startTime":359.28,"endTime":363.032,"body":"biblical narrative, the story of God is that in"},{"startTime":363.056,"endTime":365.992,"body":"the midst of the spinning and the disorder and the"},{"startTime":366.016,"endTime":369.816,"body":"disorientation, that there is an embrace that we are held"},{"startTime":369.888,"endTime":373.672,"body":"by love, that love has us, which is a phrase that I use over"},{"startTime":373.696,"endTime":377.224,"body":"and over again in the book. And so it's this picture"},{"startTime":377.272,"endTime":380.664,"body":"of here's what's happening that shouldn't be"},{"startTime":380.752,"endTime":384.264,"body":"happening. And yet a picture of God's faithfulness"},{"startTime":384.392,"endTime":388.184,"body":"to give me both an experience and a deeply,"},{"startTime":388.232,"endTime":391.912,"body":"deeply ingrained memory of being embraced"},{"startTime":391.976,"endTime":395.496,"body":"and held by love. Now, just, just for"},{"startTime":395.568,"endTime":399.4,"body":"further significance, as a four year"},{"startTime":399.44,"endTime":403.192,"body":"old, and I was a good Catholic boy, although there wasn't much I could"},{"startTime":403.216,"endTime":406.38,"body":"do at age 4 to be a bad Catholic boy, I guess"},{"startTime":406.8,"endTime":410.616,"body":"I was terrified that as I was in this cabinet and I knew"},{"startTime":410.648,"endTime":414.136,"body":"very well that the nuns could not come out and have contact with"},{"startTime":414.208,"endTime":417.922,"body":"people. But I don't know that there was a written rule anywhere that little four"},{"startTime":417.946,"endTime":421.746,"body":"year old boys couldn't go through that cabinet. But I remember being on the other"},{"startTime":421.818,"endTime":425.618,"body":"side and for a moment terrified that the Pope or a bishop or"},{"startTime":425.674,"endTime":428.562,"body":"somebody was going to come in with their glasses down on the end of their"},{"startTime":428.586,"endTime":432.434,"body":"nose and their hands on their hips, exasperated, disappointed, frustrated"},{"startTime":432.482,"endTime":436.322,"body":"with me that I was on the wrong side of the"},{"startTime":436.346,"endTime":439.81,"body":"grill and that I was doing something wrong, that I was"},{"startTime":439.85,"endTime":443.632,"body":"breaking the rules. And that really"},{"startTime":443.816,"endTime":447.52,"body":"was deeply rooted in me as well, despite that moment of"},{"startTime":447.56,"endTime":451.392,"body":"love, because my family of origin, it"},{"startTime":451.416,"endTime":454.768,"body":"was an alcoholic family until my dad got sober when I was in second"},{"startTime":454.824,"endTime":458.34,"body":"grade, there was all kinds of dysfunction and abuse."},{"startTime":458.84,"endTime":462.08,"body":"And so God to me was somebody who was"},{"startTime":462.2,"endTime":466.0,"body":"certainly punitive, somebody who was distant and who"},{"startTime":466.04,"endTime":469.152,"body":"really only showed up when I was doing something wrong and when I was in"},{"startTime":469.176,"endTime":472.882,"body":"trouble. And I was certain that I"},{"startTime":472.906,"endTime":476.242,"body":"was going to be busted for what my brother did, when in fact I was"},{"startTime":476.266,"endTime":479.938,"body":"embraced. How beautiful. That"},{"startTime":479.994,"endTime":483.65,"body":"story definitely caught my attention even too. And the"},{"startTime":483.69,"endTime":487.09,"body":"part that I really loved was that, yeah, even though they're behind these"},{"startTime":487.13,"endTime":490.43,"body":"bars, they still put all the"},{"startTime":491.45,"endTime":495.266,"body":"idea of their passion, their story behind them and put you"},{"startTime":495.338,"endTime":499.092,"body":"first. How did that feel to be prioritized in a moment that"},{"startTime":499.116,"endTime":502.932,"body":"could have been like, oh, well, you know, have to do X, Y and"},{"startTime":502.956,"endTime":506.692,"body":"Z. Yeah, I. Think I didn't realize it in"},{"startTime":506.716,"endTime":510.308,"body":"the moment, but as I have reflected back on that,"},{"startTime":510.364,"endTime":513.812,"body":"especially in the process of writing the book,"},{"startTime":513.996,"endTime":517.78,"body":"that that experience at that Carmelite monastery"},{"startTime":517.94,"endTime":521.572,"body":"has in many ways become a foundational way of how I think"},{"startTime":521.596,"endTime":525.206,"body":"about life with God. And the nuns saw"},{"startTime":525.278,"endTime":528.33,"body":"relationship more important than rules."},{"startTime":529.15,"endTime":532.55,"body":"And this is true of the desert mothers and desert"},{"startTime":532.63,"endTime":536.39,"body":"fathers, you know, beginning in the 4th century, 5th century,"},{"startTime":536.47,"endTime":540.15,"body":"6th century, where men and women would leave the cities"},{"startTime":540.31,"endTime":543.622,"body":"and they would go out into the desert to try to live for God"},{"startTime":543.686,"endTime":547.238,"body":"contemplatively through prayer and fasting and to not be"},{"startTime":547.374,"endTime":550.76,"body":"corrupted, you know, by the city and by others."},{"startTime":551.22,"endTime":554.492,"body":"And I've talked to many people over the years"},{"startTime":554.596,"endTime":558.188,"body":"that they always, to a person, say that for those"},{"startTime":558.244,"endTime":561.9,"body":"ascetic individuals that were trying"},{"startTime":561.94,"endTime":565.532,"body":"to focus on being faithful to God, one of the things that"},{"startTime":565.556,"endTime":568.7,"body":"would always override their"},{"startTime":568.74,"endTime":571.868,"body":"meditation, their silence and their fasting was"},{"startTime":571.924,"endTime":575.378,"body":"hospitality. So if someone showed up"},{"startTime":575.564,"endTime":579.19,"body":"and they needed to sleep, if they needed to be fed, if they needed some"},{"startTime":579.23,"endTime":582.95,"body":"kind of medical care, everything stopped in terms"},{"startTime":582.99,"endTime":586.742,"body":"of these practices to attend to the relationship. That's what was so"},{"startTime":586.766,"endTime":590.55,"body":"important and that's what was true with the nuns, is"},{"startTime":590.59,"endTime":594.31,"body":"that here's this little boy, what do you do? You delight in him."},{"startTime":594.35,"endTime":597.942,"body":"You pick him up, you dance. And I'm sure there was something in the"},{"startTime":597.966,"endTime":601.734,"body":"nuns that thought we're cloistered and we're never going to"},{"startTime":601.742,"endTime":605.494,"body":"have our own children. And who knows when the last time they got a hug"},{"startTime":605.542,"endTime":609.202,"body":"was. And there was probably a huge win in it for them because"},{"startTime":609.226,"endTime":613.042,"body":"who doesn't love a little four year old kid? And I have a picture of"},{"startTime":613.066,"endTime":616.39,"body":"myself there, actually, with a little peach fuzz haircut, wearing"},{"startTime":616.89,"endTime":620.61,"body":"corduroy pants and a flannel shirt from 1968."},{"startTime":620.73,"endTime":624.21,"body":"Oh, yeah. But that idea that relationship"},{"startTime":624.37,"endTime":628.21,"body":"overrides rules is really reflective of the heart"},{"startTime":628.25,"endTime":631.954,"body":"of Jesus. We see that in the stories again and again. And for people that"},{"startTime":631.962,"endTime":635.186,"body":"are listening, well, what about rules? What about God's"},{"startTime":635.218,"endTime":638.98,"body":"law? Of course, but all those rules"},{"startTime":639.06,"endTime":642.836,"body":"and all the laws are really meant"},{"startTime":642.868,"endTime":646.58,"body":"to Honor, relationship, both God's relationship with us, our"},{"startTime":646.62,"endTime":650.18,"body":"relationship with God, and our relationship with one another. And I would"},{"startTime":650.22,"endTime":653.796,"body":"also say our relationship with ourselves, that's what God's"},{"startTime":653.828,"endTime":657.62,"body":"laws, ways, statutes, precepts, those are"},{"startTime":657.66,"endTime":661.28,"body":"all about, is to help us align ourselves with love."},{"startTime":662.15,"endTime":665.758,"body":"Yeah, absolutely. I mean, even quoting your book, what it's all about"},{"startTime":665.814,"endTime":669.55,"body":"is an invitation to be held in loving connection, to"},{"startTime":669.59,"endTime":673.326,"body":"participate in a dance, literally and metaphorically"},{"startTime":673.438,"endTime":676.478,"body":"with your story, where we are seen, soothed, safe and"},{"startTime":676.534,"endTime":680.37,"body":"secure. And as you're talking about the rules"},{"startTime":680.79,"endTime":683.97,"body":"and this duality of holding"},{"startTime":684.39,"endTime":687.49,"body":"the personhood and the rules in both hands,"},{"startTime":688.56,"endTime":692.344,"body":"what is this like when you were held in that moment?"},{"startTime":692.392,"endTime":695.8,"body":"What does this loving connection look like with you and Jesus"},{"startTime":695.88,"endTime":699.56,"body":"after in all of your reflection through"},{"startTime":699.6,"endTime":703.24,"body":"this book? Yeah, I think if"},{"startTime":703.28,"endTime":706.84,"body":"you had talked to me the next day when I was 4, I would"},{"startTime":706.88,"endTime":710.648,"body":"have told you or felt as if nothing had"},{"startTime":710.704,"endTime":714.248,"body":"changed. And I do believe that that"},{"startTime":714.304,"endTime":718.074,"body":"gift was for me as a four year old, that something in a"},{"startTime":718.082,"endTime":721.79,"body":"very deeply embodied way received what happened"},{"startTime":722.69,"endTime":726.506,"body":"and that something actually changed inside of me because of that moment."},{"startTime":726.538,"endTime":730.298,"body":"But it didn't prevent the abuse, it didn't prevent or take"},{"startTime":730.354,"endTime":734.058,"body":"me out of the dysfunction. But maybe it gave me"},{"startTime":734.114,"endTime":737.77,"body":"a level of resilience and that allowed something to develop in"},{"startTime":737.81,"endTime":741.434,"body":"me neurologically, emotionally,"},{"startTime":741.562,"endTime":744.47,"body":"that I might not have developed the way that I did."},{"startTime":745.22,"endTime":749.052,"body":"You know, I might be a sociopath today without that. And there might"},{"startTime":749.076,"endTime":752.684,"body":"be some listeners or friends that say, well, you, you are a sociopath. And I"},{"startTime":752.692,"endTime":756.412,"body":"don't, I don't think I am. At least not today. No, no, but my, my"},{"startTime":756.436,"endTime":760.22,"body":"point being that it wasn't for many, many years"},{"startTime":760.34,"endTime":764.06,"body":"until I actually came to a personal faith. So in"},{"startTime":764.1,"endTime":767.612,"body":"my Catholic family, I was baptized as an"},{"startTime":767.636,"endTime":770.988,"body":"infant. I was confirmed in the Catholic Church, which,"},{"startTime":771.044,"endTime":774.546,"body":"interestingly, in Lutheran traditions and"},{"startTime":774.618,"endTime":777.906,"body":"Methodist traditions, Catholic and Anglican and Episcopal."},{"startTime":778.018,"endTime":781.682,"body":"Confirmation is when typically a junior high student,"},{"startTime":781.746,"endTime":785.282,"body":"you know, who has entered into puberty and they now are of the age of"},{"startTime":785.306,"endTime":788.658,"body":"accountability, they are saying yes to"},{"startTime":788.714,"endTime":792.418,"body":"faith, yes to the church, yes to, I want to"},{"startTime":792.474,"endTime":795.922,"body":"follow God. And for me in my family,"},{"startTime":796.026,"endTime":799.81,"body":"and this, I think, was kind of a popular"},{"startTime":799.89,"endTime":803.73,"body":"thing in Catholic families, at least in Northeast Ohio, where I grew up, where"},{"startTime":803.85,"endTime":807.694,"body":"you could make your confirmation and say, yes, I want to follow God and be"},{"startTime":807.702,"endTime":810.926,"body":"a part of the church. And then after you did that, you were good. It's"},{"startTime":810.958,"endTime":814.782,"body":"like you could not do anything. So my parents actually said to me, after your"},{"startTime":814.806,"endTime":818.222,"body":"confirmation, you don't have to go to church if you don't want to. And as"},{"startTime":818.246,"endTime":821.93,"body":"I reflected Back on that, I was like, what? That's a little, you know,"},{"startTime":822.95,"endTime":826.782,"body":"ironic. But I also think about it this way. I think what my"},{"startTime":826.806,"endTime":830.25,"body":"parents were trying to do was now that you've made this decision"},{"startTime":830.74,"endTime":834.22,"body":"as a, quote, semi adult, you're a teenager, but you're making this"},{"startTime":834.26,"endTime":837.964,"body":"decision on your own, not the faith that we've chosen, if you want to go,"},{"startTime":838.052,"endTime":841.852,"body":"go, and if you don't want to go, don't go. And I actually would like"},{"startTime":841.876,"endTime":845.644,"body":"to believe that that's what they were thinking. But that was when I"},{"startTime":845.652,"endTime":849.292,"body":"was 13. And then when I was 16, I actually heard for the"},{"startTime":849.316,"endTime":852.636,"body":"very first time. I had never heard it in all of my Catholic"},{"startTime":852.668,"endTime":856.422,"body":"background. I think I missed it. It's not that it wasn't being said that"},{"startTime":856.446,"endTime":860.262,"body":"God loved me, that God loved the me, that I"},{"startTime":860.286,"endTime":864.022,"body":"didn't love myself. God loved the me that felt such"},{"startTime":864.126,"endTime":867.27,"body":"shame and unworthiness and dirtiness and"},{"startTime":867.31,"endTime":870.662,"body":"disgust. And God loved the me that felt so"},{"startTime":870.686,"endTime":874.518,"body":"inadequate. And I learned that"},{"startTime":874.574,"endTime":878.182,"body":"he forgave me for my sins. And at 16,"},{"startTime":878.286,"endTime":881.926,"body":"I had a lot of sins that I took on as,"},{"startTime":881.998,"endTime":885.518,"body":"you know, primarily because I was a horrible person"},{"startTime":885.654,"endTime":889.31,"body":"and that I was disgusting. In the particular church that I went to,"},{"startTime":889.35,"endTime":892.894,"body":"A.J. i was given a picture"},{"startTime":892.942,"endTime":896.254,"body":"of a heart, and it was embossed with a little prayer"},{"startTime":896.302,"endTime":900.03,"body":"card. And that heart was black. And it was"},{"startTime":900.07,"endTime":903.55,"body":"basically, this is what sin is. Your heart is black. So I had this"},{"startTime":903.59,"endTime":907.214,"body":"picture of my heart as black, as dark,"},{"startTime":907.342,"endTime":910.158,"body":"as dirty. And of course, that aligned very"},{"startTime":910.214,"endTime":913.98,"body":"conveniently with sexual abuse and with the"},{"startTime":914.02,"endTime":917.74,"body":"sexual compulsion and addiction and sexual sin that I engaged in"},{"startTime":917.78,"endTime":921.436,"body":"later. But so at 16, I learned that God loved"},{"startTime":921.468,"endTime":925.1,"body":"me, forgave me. I wanted that relationship with him."},{"startTime":925.14,"endTime":928.44,"body":"I said yes to that relationship, decided to follow him."},{"startTime":928.74,"endTime":931.5,"body":"And that love never actually got"},{"startTime":931.54,"endTime":935.372,"body":"internalized. It never went deep inside of me."},{"startTime":935.476,"endTime":938.812,"body":"And I won't say that it was just a cognitive thought thing or an"},{"startTime":938.836,"endTime":942.348,"body":"intellectual thing, but there was something where it wasn't until"},{"startTime":942.404,"endTime":945.548,"body":"14 years later, and I've said this in other contexts,"},{"startTime":945.724,"endTime":949.012,"body":"that when my life blew up July 10,"},{"startTime":949.147,"endTime":952.812,"body":"1994, from my sexual addiction and double life, it"},{"startTime":952.836,"endTime":956.668,"body":"wasn't till then, 14 years after asking Christ"},{"startTime":956.724,"endTime":960.396,"body":"to be the Lord of my life and saying yes to that, it wasn't"},{"startTime":960.428,"endTime":964.124,"body":"until that 14 year later period where I actually felt"},{"startTime":964.172,"endTime":967.842,"body":"the love of God for the first time. And so there's a phrase that I"},{"startTime":967.866,"endTime":970.898,"body":"use in the book that love must be"},{"startTime":970.954,"endTime":974.482,"body":"metabolized until it can be"},{"startTime":974.586,"endTime":978.386,"body":"internalized. And I think it took me from age"},{"startTime":978.458,"endTime":981.874,"body":"4 until age 30, 1994,"},{"startTime":982.042,"endTime":985.874,"body":"for love to be metabolized inside of me so"},{"startTime":985.882,"endTime":989.15,"body":"that it could go down inside and begin to"},{"startTime":989.45,"endTime":993.25,"body":"then move throughout my spiritual bloodstream and actually into my"},{"startTime":993.29,"endTime":996.962,"body":"physical body and into my nerves and neurons and muscles"},{"startTime":997.026,"endTime":1000.47,"body":"so that the peace of God and the love of God could actually be felt."},{"startTime":1000.89,"endTime":1004.53,"body":"Wow. Yeah. You said 14 years from"},{"startTime":1004.65,"endTime":1007.986,"body":"your D day to when you really truly felt"},{"startTime":1008.178,"endTime":1011.65,"body":"like love had you. Well, yeah, actually, it was"},{"startTime":1011.69,"endTime":1015.442,"body":"14 years from the time I quote, accepted Christ and"},{"startTime":1015.466,"endTime":1019.01,"body":"became a Christian until my D day. Oh, that's right. And it was on my"},{"startTime":1019.05,"endTime":1022.844,"body":"D day of when everything blew up that that's when I felt the"},{"startTime":1022.852,"endTime":1026.508,"body":"love of God. Because, see, then I had nothing to stand"},{"startTime":1026.564,"endTime":1030.172,"body":"on. I had no game. I was completely broken. There were"},{"startTime":1030.196,"endTime":1033.5,"body":"no, you know, let me@psalm51. There were no burnt offerings"},{"startTime":1033.58,"endTime":1037.388,"body":"or sacrifices that I could make at that point because"},{"startTime":1037.524,"endTime":1041.244,"body":"I was guilty. I was discovered in my lies, my double"},{"startTime":1041.292,"endTime":1045.02,"body":"life, my breaking my marriage vows. And I couldn't say,"},{"startTime":1045.14,"endTime":1048.812,"body":"well, I'll read my Bible more or I'll try to witness more or"},{"startTime":1048.916,"endTime":1052.58,"body":"I'll memorize more Scripture, which previously, those were all the things"},{"startTime":1052.62,"endTime":1056.404,"body":"I did. You know, the more I sinned and acted out my addiction, the harder"},{"startTime":1056.452,"endTime":1060.244,"body":"I tried to be better. I tried harder to, quote, love God"},{"startTime":1060.292,"endTime":1063.924,"body":"more, but that's exhausting. And I can't"},{"startTime":1063.972,"endTime":1067.54,"body":"love God more by effort any more than my wife would feel"},{"startTime":1067.58,"endTime":1071.364,"body":"loved by me. You know, bringing her flowers. If I have"},{"startTime":1071.372,"endTime":1075.06,"body":"a loving heart toward her, and that already is there, and"},{"startTime":1075.1,"endTime":1078.844,"body":"I buy her flowers, hopefully she'll feel loved and blessed. But if"},{"startTime":1078.852,"endTime":1082.14,"body":"I don't have love in my heart, because that's not down inside of me yet,"},{"startTime":1082.18,"endTime":1085.34,"body":"and I buy her flowers, she's going to feel manipulated. And"},{"startTime":1085.38,"endTime":1089.16,"body":"unconsciously, I think that's what I was doing for so long was that."},{"startTime":1089.62,"endTime":1092.6,"body":"And the church was teaching me, and"},{"startTime":1093.3,"endTime":1097.036,"body":"the people that were discipling me were doing their very best. But it was basically,"},{"startTime":1097.148,"endTime":1100.652,"body":"work hard for God and he'll be pleased with you."},{"startTime":1100.836,"endTime":1104.428,"body":"Now, that's not the gospel message for salvation. Because that said,"},{"startTime":1104.484,"endTime":1108.15,"body":"it's not by our works, it's by faith that we're saved. But once"},{"startTime":1108.19,"endTime":1112.022,"body":"we're in Christ, we're not talking about getting saved."},{"startTime":1112.086,"endTime":1115.494,"body":"We're talking about living in his love. And we simply"},{"startTime":1115.542,"endTime":1118.783,"body":"can't earn love. And on July 10,"},{"startTime":1118.9,"endTime":1122.726,"body":"1994, I absolutely, positively could not earn it. And that's"},{"startTime":1122.758,"endTime":1126.486,"body":"when love, if you will, broke through. To quote an old Phil Keagi"},{"startTime":1126.518,"endTime":1130.31,"body":"song or Keith Green song, whichever person wrote that good"},{"startTime":1130.35,"endTime":1133.57,"body":"song. Yeah, absolutely. You talk about"},{"startTime":1134.0,"endTime":1137.672,"body":"people changing and that it is you Know, the argument"},{"startTime":1137.736,"endTime":1141.3,"body":"of chapter one is, can people change? And"},{"startTime":1141.68,"endTime":1145.48,"body":"you use the concept of love, having you, this"},{"startTime":1145.52,"endTime":1148.76,"body":"sacred attachment, as the way to do that. As"},{"startTime":1148.8,"endTime":1152.472,"body":"someone who might be picking up that book and"},{"startTime":1152.576,"endTime":1156.344,"body":"like, you know, maybe they're like, oh, this is like the first thing"},{"startTime":1156.352,"endTime":1159.992,"body":"I've tried, or this is the last thing I have and"},{"startTime":1160.016,"endTime":1163.294,"body":"they're reading this chapter. What would you encourage them"},{"startTime":1163.382,"endTime":1167.15,"body":"as? Not only from your book, in the words of you can"},{"startTime":1167.19,"endTime":1171.022,"body":"change and that love has you, but from a personal standpoint, just"},{"startTime":1171.046,"endTime":1174.83,"body":"in this conversation. Yeah, the first thing I'd want to say"},{"startTime":1174.87,"endTime":1178.67,"body":"to a person who is identifying with this"},{"startTime":1178.71,"endTime":1181.982,"body":"chapter, but also who's drawn to the book because they're spiritually"},{"startTime":1182.046,"endTime":1185.678,"body":"exhausted, they're tired of trying to earn God's affection"},{"startTime":1185.774,"endTime":1189.55,"body":"or to muster up faith, or maybe they've just been"},{"startTime":1189.59,"endTime":1193.25,"body":"wounded by Christians, you know, really deep. I, I,"},{"startTime":1193.29,"endTime":1197.09,"body":"I would say that I get it. I've been in all of those places."},{"startTime":1197.25,"endTime":1201.058,"body":"I can't identify with every human being experience, but I, I've"},{"startTime":1201.074,"endTime":1204.674,"body":"definitely been in a place where life has been spinning, where the life"},{"startTime":1204.762,"endTime":1208.098,"body":"that I thought that I had and the life that I thought that I would"},{"startTime":1208.154,"endTime":1211.81,"body":"have was not actually materialized, where"},{"startTime":1211.85,"endTime":1215.586,"body":"all of my efforts didn't bring it about. I remember from a very"},{"startTime":1215.658,"endTime":1218.924,"body":"young age going to really good Christian"},{"startTime":1218.972,"endTime":1222.78,"body":"churches and hearing what most people would consider really"},{"startTime":1222.82,"endTime":1226.572,"body":"good Bible teaching and thinking internally. And"},{"startTime":1226.596,"endTime":1229.18,"body":"I don't say this to be arrogant, but I think there's going to be people"},{"startTime":1229.22,"endTime":1232.972,"body":"listening that will go, I get it. But hearing what would be"},{"startTime":1232.996,"endTime":1236.7,"body":"considered really good Bible teaching and internally, a"},{"startTime":1236.74,"endTime":1239.88,"body":"sense of that's it, like"},{"startTime":1240.18,"endTime":1243.98,"body":"really just get more information about God and do"},{"startTime":1244.02,"endTime":1247.758,"body":"more for God and try to bring more people to"},{"startTime":1247.814,"endTime":1249.69,"body":"God, and that's it."},{"startTime":1251.43,"endTime":1254.67,"body":"What about in here? What about this inner life? Why do I"},{"startTime":1254.71,"endTime":1258.542,"body":"feel such unworthiness? Why do I feel"},{"startTime":1258.646,"endTime":1262.126,"body":"so much shame? Why am I struggling"},{"startTime":1262.238,"endTime":1265.982,"body":"so in relationships? Why can't I rest? Why am"},{"startTime":1266.006,"endTime":1269.598,"body":"I always cracking jokes compulsively and the minute I stop"},{"startTime":1269.654,"endTime":1273.422,"body":"making jokes, I feel nervous and anxious and why can't I look people in"},{"startTime":1273.446,"endTime":1277.163,"body":"the eyes? These were all questions that I asked when I was 16,"},{"startTime":1277.239,"endTime":1280.478,"body":"17, 18, 19, 20. Because I knew that there was"},{"startTime":1280.534,"endTime":1284.27,"body":"something really unsettled inside of me that the"},{"startTime":1284.31,"endTime":1288.142,"body":"gospel and this life with God wasn't touching. And I"},{"startTime":1288.166,"endTime":1291.566,"body":"share this in another part of the book, but I think you've probably heard me"},{"startTime":1291.638,"endTime":1295.086,"body":"say this as we battled together for men's"},{"startTime":1295.118,"endTime":1298.718,"body":"hearts at the weekend. But there was a prayer that I prayed at one point"},{"startTime":1298.774,"endTime":1302.33,"body":"and I said, God, if this is what Being a Christian is."},{"startTime":1302.75,"endTime":1306.454,"body":"I don't know if I want to be a Christian because"},{"startTime":1306.622,"endTime":1310.406,"body":"the idea of the deeper life, I had no way"},{"startTime":1310.478,"endTime":1314.23,"body":"to make that happen. I had heard people speak about it. The"},{"startTime":1314.27,"endTime":1317.974,"body":"idea of abundance, the idea"},{"startTime":1318.022,"endTime":1321.638,"body":"of joy and love, peace, patience,"},{"startTime":1321.734,"endTime":1325.35,"body":"gentleness, goodness, faithfulness, self control, all of those"},{"startTime":1325.39,"endTime":1329.11,"body":"fruits of the spirit. I felt like those were things I had to"},{"startTime":1329.15,"endTime":1332.746,"body":"work for. And it was like grasping water where I could never actually"},{"startTime":1332.818,"endTime":1336.234,"body":"take hold of it. And I rarely felt"},{"startTime":1336.362,"endTime":1340.01,"body":"God's sense of love. I really"},{"startTime":1340.05,"endTime":1343.67,"body":"felt God's sense of pleasure over me."},{"startTime":1343.97,"endTime":1347.178,"body":"And I think the thing ultimately that"},{"startTime":1347.234,"endTime":1350.698,"body":"until my life fell apart in 1994,"},{"startTime":1350.834,"endTime":1353.71,"body":"is that I lived with tremendous self hatred."},{"startTime":1354.29,"endTime":1357.51,"body":"Now, I don't think the average person"},{"startTime":1358.52,"endTime":1362.176,"body":"in my church or in the young life groups that I was working"},{"startTime":1362.248,"endTime":1365.952,"body":"would have seen Michael and said, oh, that's a guy who hates himself. You know,"},{"startTime":1365.976,"endTime":1369.06,"body":"he looks like Eeyore, or he looks clinically depressed."},{"startTime":1369.4,"endTime":1373.104,"body":"But internally, if any of the"},{"startTime":1373.272,"endTime":1376.896,"body":"gifts or abilities or charm or humor were stripped away,"},{"startTime":1376.968,"endTime":1380.62,"body":"I would have thought, there's absolutely nothing inside of me"},{"startTime":1380.92,"endTime":1384.76,"body":"that would make anybody want me, that would make any"},{"startTime":1384.8,"endTime":1388.584,"body":"kind of positive impression. And therefore, I've got to keep up"},{"startTime":1388.672,"endTime":1392.024,"body":"these fig leaves. I've got to hide what's real on the inside, and I've got"},{"startTime":1392.032,"endTime":1395.576,"body":"to present something on the outside that's so much better"},{"startTime":1395.728,"endTime":1399.432,"body":"than I actually am. And so the words that"},{"startTime":1399.456,"endTime":1403.192,"body":"I would say are everything inside of"},{"startTime":1403.216,"endTime":1406.232,"body":"a reader that comes to this book. Any"},{"startTime":1406.336,"endTime":1409.416,"body":"struggle, any real or perceived"},{"startTime":1409.528,"endTime":1413.264,"body":"deficiency, or real or perceived inadequacy."},{"startTime":1413.432,"endTime":1417.184,"body":"And by the way, there's a difference between I am inadequate"},{"startTime":1417.232,"endTime":1420.3,"body":"to do brain surgery or fly an F18"},{"startTime":1420.68,"endTime":1424.352,"body":"or to hang shelves on a"},{"startTime":1424.376,"endTime":1428.144,"body":"wall because I'm not very handy. I'm inadequate to"},{"startTime":1428.152,"endTime":1431.82,"body":"do that because I either don't have the training or"},{"startTime":1432.28,"endTime":1436.0,"body":"my learning disability. It makes it really difficult for me to measure things and"},{"startTime":1436.04,"endTime":1439.82,"body":"do things with my hands. But it doesn't mean that I'm inadequate as a person."},{"startTime":1440.36,"endTime":1444.128,"body":"So whatever the lies are, whatever the wounds are, whatever the struggles with"},{"startTime":1444.184,"endTime":1447.952,"body":"faith or God himself that a"},{"startTime":1447.976,"endTime":1451.536,"body":"person's bringing, it's all welcome. And that welcome"},{"startTime":1451.648,"endTime":1455.44,"body":"is not from Michael. That welcome is from the God that looks like"},{"startTime":1455.48,"endTime":1459.12,"body":"Jesus. It's a welcome that says"},{"startTime":1459.24,"endTime":1462.912,"body":"you can belong regardless of who you are, that"},{"startTime":1462.936,"endTime":1466.66,"body":"God's arms are outstretched wide, that his"},{"startTime":1466.7,"endTime":1470.132,"body":"embrace is secure, and that this thing called the"},{"startTime":1470.156,"endTime":1473.48,"body":"Christian faith is something that Jesus himself"},{"startTime":1473.98,"endTime":1477.7,"body":"invites us to reimagine, a new way of"},{"startTime":1477.74,"endTime":1481.588,"body":"living with him. And it's not a new way that Michael's invented. It's"},{"startTime":1481.604,"endTime":1484.564,"body":"actually a new old way that"},{"startTime":1484.732,"endTime":1488.052,"body":"combines contemplative Christian"},{"startTime":1488.116,"endTime":1491.946,"body":"practices and ancient Christian rhythms, along with"},{"startTime":1492.068,"endTime":1495.838,"body":"what modern psychology calls attachment theory,"},{"startTime":1496.014,"endTime":1499.614,"body":"what neuroscience and medicine call interpersonal"},{"startTime":1499.662,"endTime":1503.182,"body":"neurobiology, and what human relation"},{"startTime":1503.326,"endTime":1506.462,"body":"experts simply call compassionate"},{"startTime":1506.526,"endTime":1510.33,"body":"connection. That's what God is like. And"},{"startTime":1511.03,"endTime":1514.814,"body":"we have been told this so often, but I want to encourage"},{"startTime":1514.862,"endTime":1518.65,"body":"people as they read the book or they're thinking about reading the book,"},{"startTime":1518.98,"endTime":1522.572,"body":"I want to encourage them to dare to believe"},{"startTime":1522.676,"endTime":1526.156,"body":"or dream that God is actually way"},{"startTime":1526.228,"endTime":1529.868,"body":"better than we've been told he is, and that"},{"startTime":1529.924,"endTime":1533.596,"body":"Christianity and this life of faith is"},{"startTime":1533.748,"endTime":1537.468,"body":"way better than we've been told it is. And I'm"},{"startTime":1537.484,"endTime":1540.988,"body":"not coming with new truth. I'm just trying to identify"},{"startTime":1541.164,"endTime":1544.574,"body":"some of the obstacles to seeing the treasure"},{"startTime":1544.772,"endTime":1548.522,"body":"of who God really is and the"},{"startTime":1548.546,"endTime":1552.378,"body":"expansiveness of the Gospel and the depth of grace"},{"startTime":1552.474,"endTime":1556.25,"body":"that's offered in the person of Jesus. Well, Michael, thank you"},{"startTime":1556.29,"endTime":1559.882,"body":"so much for unpacking that and diving into chapter one. So"},{"startTime":1559.906,"endTime":1563.578,"body":"excited to dive in to more of this book in the next chapter"},{"startTime":1563.674,"endTime":1567.354,"body":"in the next episode. AJ this has been a"},{"startTime":1567.362,"endTime":1571.194,"body":"blast to talk, so I can't wait for another conversation as well."},{"startTime":1571.282,"endTime":1573.49,"body":"We'll talk soon. Sounds good. Thank you."}]}