{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.32,"endTime":4.024,"body":"Well, today on the Restoring the Soul podcast, I am delighted and I'm"},{"startTime":4.072,"endTime":7.912,"body":"honored to have a special guest, Amy Byrd. Hi, Amy. Welcome"},{"startTime":7.976,"endTime":11.672,"body":"to Restoring the Soul. Hi, Michael. I am delighted to"},{"startTime":11.696,"endTime":15.08,"body":"be here. Thank you. You've written a number of"},{"startTime":15.12,"endTime":18.456,"body":"books, but your newest book comes out on"},{"startTime":18.608,"endTime":22.216,"body":"April 8th, and I'm going to hold it up. It's called Saving"},{"startTime":22.328,"endTime":26.072,"body":"Face. And I have to read the subtitle. I'm not good at remembering"},{"startTime":26.136,"endTime":29.692,"body":"subtitles. Yeah, Saving Face. Finding"},{"startTime":29.756,"endTime":32.972,"body":"myself, God and one another outside a"},{"startTime":32.996,"endTime":36.572,"body":"defaced church. And I paid"},{"startTime":36.636,"endTime":40.22,"body":"special attention to the subtitle because"},{"startTime":40.26,"endTime":43.708,"body":"it's not finding myself my self, it's"},{"startTime":43.724,"endTime":47.532,"body":"finding my space bar self, which is"},{"startTime":47.556,"endTime":50.92,"body":"really distinct. And it ties into the whole idea of"},{"startTime":51.54,"endTime":54.84,"body":"saving Face. I want to start out with three"},{"startTime":54.88,"endTime":58.52,"body":"things. I'm going to just say, these are all the notes I've written in terms."},{"startTime":58.56,"endTime":62.344,"body":"Of I love it. Because you're a theologian, I'm going"},{"startTime":62.352,"endTime":65.88,"body":"to use that word that you only hear, like in seminary and nerd circles of"},{"startTime":65.92,"endTime":69.544,"body":"prolegomena. So here's my prolegometer, kind of"},{"startTime":69.552,"endTime":72.872,"body":"the introduction to our conversation. Number"},{"startTime":72.896,"endTime":76.152,"body":"one, Saving Face is a really, really"},{"startTime":76.256,"endTime":79.588,"body":"special book. You did"},{"startTime":79.644,"endTime":83.46,"body":"something that few people can do where"},{"startTime":83.5,"endTime":87.12,"body":"they exegete scripture and they exegete their own story."},{"startTime":87.74,"endTime":91.348,"body":"Frederick Buechner said in his book Telling the Truth a long time ago,"},{"startTime":91.404,"endTime":94.996,"body":"he said that the, the Christian pastor, and he was talking"},{"startTime":95.028,"endTime":98.644,"body":"about, I think it was Harry Ward Beecher, who was a famous"},{"startTime":98.692,"endTime":102.532,"body":"preacher, and, and, and Beechner was telling his story. He got into"},{"startTime":102.556,"endTime":105.61,"body":"some trouble back in the late 1800s, maybe early"},{"startTime":105.65,"endTime":109.114,"body":"1900s. And Buechner said that there's only two stories"},{"startTime":109.242,"endTime":112.538,"body":"that a preacher can tell, the story of God and their own"},{"startTime":112.594,"endTime":115.786,"body":"story. And if they're not somehow blending those two"},{"startTime":115.858,"endTime":119.482,"body":"together, that the result will not be the fullness"},{"startTime":119.546,"endTime":122.75,"body":"of the gospel and the fullness of the story of God."},{"startTime":123.09,"endTime":126.362,"body":"And I personally, having had a lot of"},{"startTime":126.386,"endTime":130.074,"body":"brokenness in my story and my background, and that's kind of how the podcast"},{"startTime":130.122,"endTime":133.613,"body":"emerged. I, I, I don't trust people who haven't"},{"startTime":133.661,"endTime":137.261,"body":"integrated the story of God with their own story somehow. So you"},{"startTime":137.285,"endTime":140.765,"body":"did a masterful job at that. Thank you so much. Dan"},{"startTime":140.797,"endTime":144.637,"body":"Allender was one of the endorsers for your book, and he and I were"},{"startTime":144.693,"endTime":148.381,"body":"close colleagues at one point when he still lived in Denver. And he trained me"},{"startTime":148.405,"endTime":152.205,"body":"back in 1991 and 1992. So I have great respect for him."},{"startTime":152.277,"endTime":156.029,"body":"And when they started the Seattle School, they had"},{"startTime":156.069,"endTime":159.869,"body":"this tagline. And I don't, I don't know if it's still in place, but they"},{"startTime":159.909,"endTime":163.61,"body":"existed to exegete the text, soul and"},{"startTime":163.65,"endTime":167.322,"body":"culture. Oh, that's good. And we really talk about exegesis on"},{"startTime":167.346,"endTime":170.99,"body":"those three levels, but I think you just nailed it, giving"},{"startTime":171.49,"endTime":175.226,"body":"a result that is just so much bigger than if you had just written"},{"startTime":175.258,"endTime":179.002,"body":"a memoir or if you had just written a book of exegeting. So number"},{"startTime":179.026,"endTime":182.794,"body":"one, thank you for that. Wow, thanks so much for saying that and noticing"},{"startTime":182.842,"endTime":186.474,"body":"that I didn't know quite what I was doing to begin"},{"startTime":186.522,"endTime":189.666,"body":"with. It's a lot of blending of genre."},{"startTime":189.818,"endTime":193.15,"body":"So. Yeah, I'm glad that it"},{"startTime":193.53,"endTime":197.362,"body":"registered that way for you. Yeah. And I was going to ask"},{"startTime":197.386,"endTime":200.77,"body":"you about that, the blending of genre, because you"},{"startTime":200.81,"endTime":204.562,"body":"have a preface, no pun intended. Or maybe pun intended,"},{"startTime":204.626,"endTime":208.002,"body":"that pre face and then a prelude where you"},{"startTime":208.026,"endTime":211.67,"body":"unpack C.S. lewis's novel, my second favorite novel,"},{"startTime":212.81,"endTime":216.194,"body":"till we have Faces, the story of Orwell and Psyche,"},{"startTime":216.242,"endTime":219.794,"body":"Lewis's retelling of Cupid and Psyche. And then you start into the"},{"startTime":219.802,"endTime":223.378,"body":"chapters. And I love books that have sections, not just chapters, but"},{"startTime":223.434,"endTime":227.122,"body":"sections, because they help me to organize. Yes, my editor really"},{"startTime":227.146,"endTime":229.31,"body":"helped me do that. Good, good."},{"startTime":230.57,"endTime":234.178,"body":"So the, the genres, then you, you, in"},{"startTime":234.234,"endTime":237.778,"body":"each chapter you have your journaling that"},{"startTime":237.834,"endTime":241.57,"body":"looks like and felt like, and I suspect was real time journaling from"},{"startTime":241.61,"endTime":245.244,"body":"those moments, including like sharing about a dream. So the second thing I want to"},{"startTime":245.252,"endTime":248.94,"body":"say about your book is that it wasn't just well"},{"startTime":248.98,"endTime":252.524,"body":"written and it wasn't just special in the sense of how you combine the exegesis,"},{"startTime":252.572,"endTime":256.236,"body":"but it was powerful. It was personally powerful and it deeply"},{"startTime":256.268,"endTime":259.98,"body":"moved me. There were moments where I came to tears. There was moments where your"},{"startTime":260.02,"endTime":263.612,"body":"writing told stories in such a way where I smiled and where I"},{"startTime":263.636,"endTime":267.388,"body":"laughed. But there was profound humility"},{"startTime":267.564,"endTime":271.148,"body":"in the book because you did, again, something"},{"startTime":271.204,"endTime":274.88,"body":"very unique. Many people have written about their spiritual abuse, their"},{"startTime":274.92,"endTime":278.72,"body":"harassment, etc, that's been part of my writing. But then you"},{"startTime":278.76,"endTime":282.448,"body":"flipped it over all throughout and you looked at your"},{"startTime":282.504,"endTime":285.904,"body":"own brokenness and weakness."},{"startTime":286.032,"endTime":289.824,"body":"And I'll just jump in here. You made the statement in the. In the"},{"startTime":289.832,"endTime":293.344,"body":"section on fractured faces and I'm getting ahead of"},{"startTime":293.352,"endTime":296.992,"body":"myself. So if it's okay, we'll kind of follow this thread. You"},{"startTime":297.016,"endTime":300.856,"body":"said before going through the traumatic disruption in my former"},{"startTime":300.928,"endTime":304.712,"body":"church and denomination, I didn't realize how much of my life was"},{"startTime":304.736,"endTime":308.536,"body":"a response to the catastrophe of my parents divorce."},{"startTime":308.728,"endTime":312.392,"body":"And so you kind of set the stage for here's this harassment, which"},{"startTime":312.416,"endTime":316.04,"body":"was very public in my life. But then what I had to"},{"startTime":316.08,"endTime":319.192,"body":"do is I processed all that and grieved. That is I had to Come to"},{"startTime":319.216,"endTime":322.34,"body":"terms with the brokenness that I was carrying all throughout my life."},{"startTime":322.72,"endTime":326.552,"body":"So just jump in. Anything you want to respond to and kind"},{"startTime":326.576,"endTime":329.886,"body":"of unpack that. Yeah, it kind of goes with what you were saying earlier, too."},{"startTime":329.958,"endTime":333.774,"body":"Like, one of the most disillusioning parts of the spiritual abuse that I"},{"startTime":333.782,"endTime":337.102,"body":"went through, and mine was very public, it was happening online,"},{"startTime":337.206,"endTime":341.054,"body":"and a lot of the harassment and then I had"},{"startTime":341.062,"endTime":344.862,"body":"to go through, you know, I tried to go through the proper church order to"},{"startTime":344.886,"endTime":348.542,"body":"address it. So I'm going to presbytery meetings and things like"},{"startTime":348.566,"endTime":351.758,"body":"this. One of the most"},{"startTime":351.814,"endTime":355.466,"body":"disillusioning parts of the whole thing was"},{"startTime":355.538,"endTime":358.47,"body":"to realize how"},{"startTime":358.93,"endTime":362.186,"body":"immature the leaders in the church"},{"startTime":362.218,"endTime":366.026,"body":"were, because, you know, these are leaders in the church"},{"startTime":366.058,"endTime":369.45,"body":"who are calling me horrible names online. Like, you know, you don't have to like"},{"startTime":369.49,"endTime":373.162,"body":"my writing. Go ahead and critique it. But, you know, you don't like"},{"startTime":373.186,"endTime":376.81,"body":"calling me the great whore of Babylon on a social media"},{"startTime":376.93,"endTime":380.65,"body":"outlet where my teenagers at the time could read that about"},{"startTime":380.69,"endTime":384.28,"body":"their mother. Right? And it was by a pastor"},{"startTime":384.78,"endTime":388.58,"body":"and, you know, shut up and make me a sandwich. And you"},{"startTime":388.62,"endTime":392.436,"body":"know, all kinds of really, like, middle school. Yeah,"},{"startTime":392.468,"endTime":396.228,"body":"Jezebel, but very middle school, like, behavior."},{"startTime":396.324,"endTime":400.052,"body":"Right? Like that bullying in middle school type of thing. And I"},{"startTime":400.076,"endTime":403.252,"body":"thought, oh, my goodness, like, and there were so many of them, and it was"},{"startTime":403.276,"endTime":406.628,"body":"horrible. But I thought, you know, when this does go through the church"},{"startTime":406.724,"endTime":410.458,"body":"process, clearly this is going to be addressed well,"},{"startTime":410.514,"endTime":413.818,"body":"you know, like, a lot of these men were showing that"},{"startTime":413.954,"endTime":417.386,"body":"they. They were not in any position"},{"startTime":417.538,"endTime":421.15,"body":"spiritually mature wise or emotionally mature wise,"},{"startTime":421.57,"endTime":425.162,"body":"any position to be leading churches or being elders in a church, you know, like,"},{"startTime":425.186,"endTime":428.97,"body":"they needed to be shepherded themselves. And what I found was"},{"startTime":429.01,"endTime":432.63,"body":"even. Even the leaders who were trying to help me,"},{"startTime":434.78,"endTime":438.372,"body":"I'm in this odd system as a woman"},{"startTime":438.476,"endTime":442.244,"body":"where I don't even get to tell my own story. You know,"},{"startTime":442.412,"endTime":446.1,"body":"I don't have a voice. And it has to be from these male leaders, these"},{"startTime":446.14,"endTime":449.972,"body":"benevolent male leaders who are now speaking on my behalf. But"},{"startTime":449.996,"endTime":453.588,"body":"they also were playing into this whole weird system"},{"startTime":453.644,"endTime":457.396,"body":"of power. So what that made me do afterwards, it's"},{"startTime":457.428,"endTime":461.172,"body":"easy to say, okay, well, these are the bad guys. This denomination is messed up,"},{"startTime":461.196,"endTime":464.94,"body":"and the adjacent ones around it, you know, and I'm the victim here,"},{"startTime":465.8,"endTime":469.52,"body":"and then try to heal from that and move on. But it really made"},{"startTime":469.56,"endTime":473.36,"body":"me say what attracted me to"},{"startTime":473.4,"endTime":476.864,"body":"a church like this, to a denomination like this. How did I not"},{"startTime":476.952,"endTime":480.14,"body":"see what was so clearly there?"},{"startTime":481.4,"endTime":485.136,"body":"What other hurting people around me did I"},{"startTime":485.288,"endTime":488.768,"body":"ignore? You know, like, there were just a lot of big Questions for myself"},{"startTime":488.944,"endTime":492.712,"body":"at that time too. And so it started with that, but then"},{"startTime":492.736,"endTime":496.36,"body":"I realized, you know, trigger is a"},{"startTime":496.48,"endTime":500.232,"body":"overused word. I know it's a buzzword, but, you know,"},{"startTime":500.256,"endTime":503.976,"body":"when you. When you go through something so traumatic, your body"},{"startTime":504.048,"endTime":507.864,"body":"does. When have I felt this before? You know? And so"},{"startTime":507.872,"endTime":511.128,"body":"I started writing some of my own"},{"startTime":511.264,"endTime":515.112,"body":"memories from childhood. And I realized I really had to"},{"startTime":515.136,"endTime":518.866,"body":"deal with my parents divorce, that I"},{"startTime":518.938,"endTime":522.658,"body":"had been spending like my whole adult life reacting to that,"},{"startTime":522.714,"endTime":526.226,"body":"trying to be better than them, right? Like picking up my parents unfinished"},{"startTime":526.258,"endTime":529.682,"body":"business. And so that a lot of the."},{"startTime":529.786,"endTime":533.522,"body":"Each chapter begins with a storied memory kind"},{"startTime":533.546,"endTime":537.234,"body":"of thing. It's not all about my parents divorce. That's"},{"startTime":537.362,"endTime":541.122,"body":"just a small part, actually. But to try to get to"},{"startTime":541.146,"endTime":544.65,"body":"know, you know, how I developed in my"},{"startTime":544.69,"endTime":548.47,"body":"personality and my psyche who I was when I was"},{"startTime":549.09,"endTime":552.378,"body":"10 years old, looking in the mirror and what would I tell that girl"},{"startTime":552.434,"endTime":556.154,"body":"now? That kind of thing. Well, one of the things that"},{"startTime":556.162,"endTime":559.898,"body":"was so powerful and compelling is that you didn't"},{"startTime":559.914,"endTime":563.194,"body":"just do that a little bit, you really laid yourself bare. I mean,"},{"startTime":563.202,"endTime":566.858,"body":"there's. It's one thing. So I was a. I was a sex"},{"startTime":566.914,"endTime":570.682,"body":"addict and an alcoholic while I was in ministry. And that was 31 years"},{"startTime":570.706,"endTime":574.276,"body":"ago. And it's kind of safe for me to tell that story now,"},{"startTime":574.428,"endTime":578.164,"body":"but I'm often with groups and speaking or preaching somewhere,"},{"startTime":578.212,"endTime":581.876,"body":"and it's. I can almost sense like, people going. And so what about today?"},{"startTime":581.948,"endTime":585.636,"body":"You know, how can I trust you in this moment? But you just keep going"},{"startTime":585.708,"endTime":589.204,"body":"and going and going with like, pulling back the layers."},{"startTime":589.332,"endTime":592.612,"body":"And I was drawn to that. But. But not to be"},{"startTime":592.636,"endTime":596.276,"body":"hyperbolic, but I was like, this is freaking brave"},{"startTime":596.388,"endTime":600.232,"body":"to do that. And that's what the gift of the"},{"startTime":600.256,"endTime":604.072,"body":"book really is, is that the more you pull back the layers of"},{"startTime":604.096,"endTime":607.72,"body":"your story, the more I saw God. And I think that's what"},{"startTime":607.76,"endTime":611.576,"body":"Buechner meant by unless you tell those two stories, because there's no need"},{"startTime":611.648,"endTime":615.24,"body":"for me to need Jesus. I mean, yes, eternal life, but"},{"startTime":615.28,"endTime":618.696,"body":"like, I believe that the gospel is about as much, if not"},{"startTime":618.768,"endTime":622.28,"body":"more, what does that mean for me today? The salvation of"},{"startTime":622.32,"endTime":625.74,"body":"David, who day after day said, you know, you're my salvation, my rock."},{"startTime":626.64,"endTime":630.232,"body":"So I read the book and I felt a"},{"startTime":630.256,"endTime":633.992,"body":"great hunger that was stirred in me to"},{"startTime":634.016,"endTime":637.656,"body":"have a deeper knowledge of this Jesus that you talked about, who"},{"startTime":637.728,"endTime":641.192,"body":"ultimately, you know, we get to see our own. We need to see our own"},{"startTime":641.216,"endTime":644.904,"body":"face more clearly. We get to see other faces"},{"startTime":644.952,"endTime":648.74,"body":"more clearly. And ultimately we see that God sees us."},{"startTime":649.28,"endTime":652.42,"body":"Right? And I mean, isn't that what we"},{"startTime":652.54,"endTime":656.244,"body":"ultimately long for. You know, we all come out, I start the"},{"startTime":656.252,"endTime":659.668,"body":"book saying we all come out looking for a face"},{"startTime":659.804,"endTime":662.8,"body":"that's looking at our face and delighting in it."},{"startTime":663.42,"endTime":666.9,"body":"And that's how we know that we're loved. That's how we know that we"},{"startTime":666.94,"endTime":670.36,"body":"matter, that there's meaning. To me, uniquely"},{"startTime":671.18,"endTime":674.548,"body":"in this world, we can't see our own"},{"startTime":674.604,"endTime":678.308,"body":"face. And so we have to look to others to learn about ourselves."},{"startTime":678.404,"endTime":681.868,"body":"And ultimately, though, we are all looking for"},{"startTime":681.924,"endTime":684.844,"body":"God's face, beholding our face,"},{"startTime":685.012,"endTime":688.508,"body":"delighting in our face. And this is what we truly long"},{"startTime":688.564,"endTime":692.188,"body":"for. And I think this is something that we can give one another"},{"startTime":692.244,"endTime":694.88,"body":"and that we're called to do that as Christians"},{"startTime":695.38,"endTime":699.1,"body":"now. You know the great benediction in"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":699.14,"endTime":702.796,"body":"24 through 26, where God"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":702.908,"endTime":706.582,"body":"has Aaron bless the people by saying the the Lord bless you"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":706.686,"endTime":710.422,"body":"and keep you, the Lord make his face to"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":710.446,"endTime":713.83,"body":"shine upon you and be gracious to you,"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":713.87,"endTime":717.67,"body":"and the Lord turn his face toward you and give"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":717.71,"endTime":721.478,"body":"you peace. What does that mean? And is that just something"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":721.534,"endTime":725.142,"body":"that we're going to get, you know, in the beatific vision when we get to"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":725.166,"endTime":728.998,"body":"behold God and Jesus Christ in our new bodies on the new heavens"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":729.014,"endTime":732.532,"body":"and the new earth? Or since this is a"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":732.556,"endTime":736.0,"body":"benediction given to a congregation of God's people."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":736.3,"endTime":739.972,"body":"Is Emmanuel Levinas correct when"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":739.996,"endTime":743.46,"body":"he says, theology begins in the face of our"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":743.5,"endTime":747.172,"body":"neighbor and that God descends in the face"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":747.276,"endTime":751.06,"body":"of our neighbor? And so we can do that"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":751.1,"endTime":754.564,"body":"for one another in our own benedictions and our blessing"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":754.692,"endTime":758.27,"body":"others, even with our faces, obviously with our"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":758.31,"endTime":761.934,"body":"mouths too, and our actions too. But our right brain"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":761.982,"endTime":765.662,"body":"can read body language and the face quicker than the"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":765.686,"endTime":769.23,"body":"words coming out of your mouth. Like, I already know how you feel towards me."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":769.35,"endTime":773.182,"body":"So I would know when I approach somebody,"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":773.326,"endTime":776.99,"body":"if we really look at one another past the countenances that we"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":777.03,"endTime":780.73,"body":"put on and that Persona that we're living all day long"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":781.75,"endTime":785.542,"body":"and show that person, you know what? It is good that"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":785.566,"endTime":789.382,"body":"you are here. I am happy that you are here with me in"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":789.406,"endTime":792.822,"body":"my presence right now. I think that's part of"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":792.846,"endTime":796.07,"body":"that. I think it's more than part of it. I think"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":796.11,"endTime":799.526,"body":"it's the majority because"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":799.678,"endTime":803.254,"body":"so in my book that I just wrote called Sacred Escaping"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":803.302,"endTime":806.822,"body":"Spiritual Exhaustion and Trusting Divine Love, it's my own story"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":806.926,"endTime":810.71,"body":"of I won't use the word deconstruction, but"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":810.75,"endTime":814.244,"body":"basically reckoning with my abuse and all the questions that come out of that."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":814.422,"endTime":817.576,"body":"And there's very few people that are writing about"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":817.648,"endTime":821.14,"body":"reconstruction. And okay, now that I've named this,"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":822.0,"endTime":825.832,"body":"what does it mean to move forward? So I tried to clinically and theologically"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":825.896,"endTime":829.624,"body":"put that path together for people. But the thesis was, to"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":829.632,"endTime":833.464,"body":"the degree that we've been seen soothed, safe, and ultimately have a"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":833.472,"endTime":836.824,"body":"secure attachment, that's the degree to which we'll be able to do that with God."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":836.872,"endTime":840.316,"body":"And if we don't have that secure attachment, we're going to really struggle."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":840.488,"endTime":844.212,"body":"And then, unfortunately, the church is not a place where it makes it safe to"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":844.236,"endTime":847.972,"body":"wrestle with those broken places with a number"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":847.996,"endTime":851.04,"body":"of exceptions. So, yeah, I think that"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":851.74,"endTime":855.412,"body":"that's part of that question that's implicit in your whole book is, you"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":855.436,"endTime":859.284,"body":"know, why did this have to happen? You know, why this harassment?"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":859.332,"endTime":863.14,"body":"Why the bullying? And instead of you staying in that"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":863.18,"endTime":866.724,"body":"victim position and legitimate victim. Because the word victim has."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":866.812,"endTime":870.532,"body":"Has a lot of negative connotations today. Through no fault of your own, you"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":870.556,"endTime":874.33,"body":"were harmed. But rather than staying in that place, you go so far"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":874.37,"endTime":878.202,"body":"beyond that, and you. You bring those two together so that as I experience"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":878.386,"endTime":882.202,"body":"the smile, the shine, the countenance of another, that"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":882.306,"endTime":885.55,"body":"rewires me neurologically to be able to experience that with God."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":885.89,"endTime":889.21,"body":"Yes, I. And that's another thing. We've really"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":889.25,"endTime":893.066,"body":"divorced psychology from theology, and"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":893.218,"endTime":896.618,"body":"what a shame that is. And that is something I've really noticed, too,"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":896.754,"endTime":900.462,"body":"as I'm going through this disillusionment with these pastors and"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":900.486,"endTime":903.61,"body":"leaders and seeing how immature they were, because,"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":904.23,"endTime":907.47,"body":"you know, I think I'd become convinced through this denomination"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":907.63,"endTime":910.83,"body":"that truth was a doctrinal matter."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":910.95,"endTime":914.734,"body":"Right. And the more that we get this certainty"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":914.782,"endTime":918.542,"body":"in our theology and precision, that the closer we are to God,"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":918.606,"endTime":921.97,"body":"you know, that it's objective and that's so dehumanized,"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":922.31,"endTime":926.152,"body":"and it's only using, like, one part of our. Our brain,"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":926.326,"endTime":929.908,"body":"and it's missing out on some of the more way more powerful"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":930.004,"endTime":933.316,"body":"parts. I mean, you even think scripture itself is 70%"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":933.388,"endTime":937.108,"body":"narrative. And, you know, I love to spend time in the song"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":937.124,"endTime":940.52,"body":"of Songs, which is allegory, poetry, song, metaphor."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":941.66,"endTime":945.188,"body":"So I just think that, you know, we. Why do we live this whole life?"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":945.244,"endTime":948.788,"body":"Why aren't we just downloaded the right information and, you know,"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":948.924,"endTime":952.59,"body":"sinless now or get to a certain"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":952.63,"endTime":956.142,"body":"degree? And I think it's because we really have to be made ready for the"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":956.166,"endTime":960.014,"body":"truth. You know, I don't think we're ready a lot of the"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":960.022,"endTime":963.806,"body":"time. And that's something that I think Orwell, until we have faces in that novel,"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":963.918,"endTime":967.678,"body":"I think C.S. lewis, man, he really took us on a journey with"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":967.734,"endTime":971.374,"body":"her, her story. And at the end, when she's. Before"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":971.462,"endTime":975.15,"body":"the Gods with her complaint that she's been writing against them all her"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":975.19,"endTime":978.942,"body":"whole life and able to have this moment to"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":978.966,"endTime":981.57,"body":"read her complaint before the gods just naked."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":983.32,"endTime":986.976,"body":"That's when she realizes the Persona that she's"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":987.008,"endTime":990.832,"body":"built and the self righteousness that she's built and how convoluted it was"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":990.936,"endTime":994.272,"body":"the whole time. And you know, I think that's so powerful"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":994.336,"endTime":998.08,"body":"because, you know, if we can be honest and look back at, at our"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":998.12,"endTime":1001.952,"body":"stories, I think that that's true of"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1001.976,"endTime":1005.68,"body":"all of us in certain ways. Yes. That we don't have a face. We"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1005.72,"endTime":1009.552,"body":"build. We spend so much of our adult lives building a Persona of who we"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1009.576,"endTime":1012.38,"body":"think we're supposed to be, who we think God wants us to,"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1014.34,"endTime":1018.172,"body":"how we want others to see us, and we start convincing ourselves that's who we"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1018.196,"endTime":1021.98,"body":"are. Yeah. Yeah. As I read the book, it made"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1022.02,"endTime":1025.564,"body":"me think of a quote by James Baldwin who said, love"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1025.652,"endTime":1028.8,"body":"does not let us live behind the masks"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1029.22,"endTime":1032.908,"body":"which hide who we are, but it also doesn't allow"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1032.964,"endTime":1036.7,"body":"us to live within those masks. And so it's the idea that we,"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1036.74,"endTime":1040.092,"body":"that we have the. I'm sorry, that love does not let us live behind the"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1040.116,"endTime":1043.79,"body":"masks that we can't live without, but it also does not let us"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1043.83,"endTime":1047.374,"body":"live within those masks that it. That will push through. And so I want to"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1047.382,"endTime":1050.99,"body":"come back to something you said. You said readiness for truth."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1051.15,"endTime":1054.91,"body":"Yeah. Unpack that a little bit more. Well, I think God is"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1054.95,"endTime":1058.446,"body":"preparing us for that ultimate blessing of seeing his"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1058.518,"endTime":1062.334,"body":"face in Jesus Christ. And he's"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1062.382,"endTime":1065.918,"body":"giving us our lifetimes to"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1065.974,"endTime":1069.094,"body":"help one another uncover our"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1069.182,"endTime":1072.982,"body":"faces and develop a taste for truth. You"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1073.006,"endTime":1076.406,"body":"know, I know for me, I was attracted to all this quote"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1076.438,"endTime":1079.894,"body":"unquote certainty in the doctrine of my"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1079.982,"endTime":1083.366,"body":"faith because it made me feel"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1083.438,"endTime":1087.062,"body":"secure. You know, it made me feel right with God. It made me feel like"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1087.086,"endTime":1090.87,"body":"there was something I could do, you know, really well, is get this"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1090.91,"endTime":1093.74,"body":"right and show it, teach it to others. And"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1095.0,"endTime":1098.752,"body":"I also think it was a way to try to heal my wound from"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1098.776,"endTime":1101.472,"body":"my parents divorce. You know, one thing I looked back on is that we weren't"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1101.536,"endTime":1104.96,"body":"as connected in the church as we could have been. And that, you know, I"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1105.0,"endTime":1108.64,"body":"learned some, some basics but really didn't get into the meat."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1108.72,"endTime":1112.368,"body":"So I thought this is the way to go, you know, But"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1112.424,"endTime":1116.144,"body":"I do think that we are being made"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1116.312,"endTime":1119.6,"body":"ready for this reality of truth. And it's so much more"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1119.64,"endTime":1123.428,"body":"glorious than we think. You know, I think of the small"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1123.484,"endTime":1126.92,"body":"box that I had God in, which is just super ridiculous."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1127.58,"endTime":1130.916,"body":"But it's scary stepping out of that Box."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1131.108,"endTime":1134.116,"body":"It's scary sharing, you know,"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1134.188,"endTime":1137.62,"body":"humiliating parts of my life. It's scary being"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1137.66,"endTime":1141.38,"body":"49 years old and saying, I don't have"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1141.42,"endTime":1145.124,"body":"this all together now. You know, like, there's"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1145.172,"endTime":1148.484,"body":"some big questions I have that I don't know the answers"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1148.532,"endTime":1152.28,"body":"to. But there is"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1152.32,"endTime":1155.912,"body":"this other comfort there of Christ with me, you"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1155.936,"endTime":1159.512,"body":"know, and the beauty that he's showing me and the"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1159.536,"endTime":1163.048,"body":"trust is both scary and"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1163.104,"endTime":1166.696,"body":"glorious at the same time. But the humanness"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1166.888,"endTime":1170.52,"body":"of it all is the"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1170.56,"endTime":1174.056,"body":"whole thing. Right. It's not just the parts we get right,"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1174.208,"endTime":1177.83,"body":"but it's our finitude. Yeah. And that makes me think"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1177.87,"endTime":1181.302,"body":"of how so often Christians think that to be"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1181.326,"endTime":1185.142,"body":"spiritual and to grow spiritually is to become less human, when in fact, I think"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1185.166,"endTime":1188.918,"body":"the story of Scripture is that we become more fully human. Like Jesus"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1189.014,"endTime":1192.598,"body":"was fully human in his humanity. You know, you talked about"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1192.654,"endTime":1196.31,"body":"the. The vulnerability and those moments where with"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1196.35,"endTime":1199.99,"body":"God, you would say, you know, I can't do this. But you also write back"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1200.03,"endTime":1203.474,"body":"and forth where you tell stories that are not, quote, about"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1203.562,"endTime":1207.138,"body":"God, where you're a mother, you had two kids, you had a third"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1207.194,"endTime":1210.754,"body":"child, and apparently your mom was very competent as a"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1210.762,"endTime":1214.082,"body":"mother. And you kind of had this picture of how you should be, and you"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1214.106,"endTime":1217.714,"body":"have your. Your baby in your arms and you're exhausted and"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1217.802,"endTime":1221.522,"body":"maybe you had a laundry basket, if I recall, and you're. And finally you"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1221.546,"endTime":1224.51,"body":"just stopped and said, I can't do this."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1224.89,"endTime":1228.53,"body":"And it's. It strikes me that this is important for you to respond to"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1228.57,"endTime":1232.356,"body":"that. It's not just this life with God where we confess our sin"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1232.388,"endTime":1235.78,"body":"or inadequacy, but it's our everyday momentary"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1235.86,"endTime":1239.332,"body":"life where there's ways that we're stuck being that are"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1239.356,"endTime":1242.98,"body":"counterproductive to our joy. And here you are in"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1243.02,"endTime":1246.66,"body":"that moment of surrender, something really profound happened that. That"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1246.7,"endTime":1250.324,"body":"had big implications for your life with God. Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1250.372,"endTime":1254.052,"body":"I feel like that moment was. I"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1254.076,"endTime":1257.822,"body":"was walking past the mirror holding this laundry basket, and"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1257.846,"endTime":1261.422,"body":"I was pregnant with my third child. And I caught a"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1261.446,"endTime":1265.086,"body":"glimpse of my face as I was walking by this mirror. And I"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1265.158,"endTime":1268.51,"body":"saw something that I didn't know was there. And it was that"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1268.55,"endTime":1272.302,"body":"exhaustion, you know, and that I'm in"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1272.326,"endTime":1275.742,"body":"this hustle. And I realized in looking at my"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1275.766,"endTime":1279.31,"body":"own self in that"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1279.35,"endTime":1283.198,"body":"mirror and being honest with what I just saw and like, stopping for a minute"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1283.214,"endTime":1287.038,"body":"and thinking about it, because it was freaky. I"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1287.094,"endTime":1290.81,"body":"was trying to do better than my mom. You know,"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1292.39,"endTime":1295.742,"body":"she had left my dad when I was 15 years old, and we stayed with"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1295.766,"endTime":1299.422,"body":"my dad, and I"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1299.446,"endTime":1302.222,"body":"wasn't going to do that. I was going to be in a good marriage, and"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1302.246,"endTime":1305.61,"body":"I was going to have three kids, too. And I was going to raise them"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1306.63,"endTime":1309.902,"body":"in the church and keep them there and stay with my husband and one big"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1309.926,"endTime":1313.732,"body":"happy family. And I realized when I"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1313.756,"endTime":1317.36,"body":"saw myself that I was doing that, which"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1317.74,"endTime":1321.508,"body":"is twisted, right? And not the reason why you do things"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1321.564,"endTime":1325.364,"body":"in life. And I had"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1325.372,"endTime":1329.092,"body":"to admit my own exhaustion, and I had to stop and think, like, you"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1329.116,"endTime":1332.9,"body":"know, I didn't come from the same background as her. She"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1332.94,"endTime":1336.16,"body":"was reacting to her own trauma and life"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1336.47,"endTime":1340.222,"body":"and upbringing, and I had a different one. And so I"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1340.246,"endTime":1343.79,"body":"can't replace the story that"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1343.83,"endTime":1346.97,"body":"way or just rewrite it."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1347.43,"endTime":1351.182,"body":"I have to write my story with my kids and"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1351.206,"endTime":1354.91,"body":"my husband. And, you know, I think Frederick Buechner,"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1354.99,"endTime":1358.798,"body":"you mentioned him and his book Telling the Truth. I mean, he really talks"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1358.814,"endTime":1362.43,"body":"about, like, digging out our own secrets. And I think that"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1362.47,"endTime":1365.54,"body":"is so well put because"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1366.24,"endTime":1369.02,"body":"we keep secrets from ourself"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1369.76,"endTime":1373.56,"body":"about even some of our motivations and,"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1373.6,"endTime":1377.432,"body":"you know, in what we're doing. And so that was a secret I"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1377.456,"endTime":1381.176,"body":"dug out about myself. That was a very important one that helped"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1381.208,"endTime":1384.86,"body":"me have more grace towards my mother and towards myself,"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1385.36,"endTime":1388.38,"body":"and definitely lean more on God."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1389.14,"endTime":1392.892,"body":"Yes. Well, Buechner, I think he was well into his 50s when"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1392.916,"endTime":1396.652,"body":"he wrote the book Telling Secrets. And that's where he unpacked his"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1396.676,"endTime":1400.492,"body":"father's suicide and how, you know, he had not dealt with"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1400.516,"endTime":1403.772,"body":"it till then as a Presbyterian minister and a successful author."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1403.876,"endTime":1407.628,"body":"And it feels like torture and torment, but"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1407.684,"endTime":1410.68,"body":"it becomes grace as we begin to unpack that."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1411.54,"endTime":1415.228,"body":"So I want to shift gears a little bit just for the sake of time."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1415.364,"endTime":1419.106,"body":"Further in the book, you quoted Donald MacLeod and you quoted"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1419.138,"endTime":1422.37,"body":"him saying, I hope that while I still have much to learn, I don't have"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1422.41,"endTime":1425.874,"body":"much to unlearn. And you go on to call"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1425.962,"endTime":1429.618,"body":"unlearning a gift. So can you talk about the difference between"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1429.674,"endTime":1433.33,"body":"learning and unlearning and why it's so important to unlearn?"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1433.49,"endTime":1436.93,"body":"Right. It's funny, because I wrote this book called no Little"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1436.97,"endTime":1440.21,"body":"Women back in the day, and it was all about, like, the"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1440.25,"endTime":1443.964,"body":"resources that are being marketed"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1444.012,"endTime":1447.692,"body":"for women in the church and how fluffy they are and"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1447.716,"endTime":1451.484,"body":"full of theological error. And it was just a call to really take women"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1451.572,"endTime":1454.892,"body":"more seriously and for women to take themselves more seriously"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1454.956,"endTime":1458.76,"body":"theologically in the church. And I quote that in that book"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1459.06,"endTime":1462.684,"body":"as a positive quote, like, you know, let's get this right, so we don't have"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1462.692,"endTime":1465.88,"body":"too much to unlearn at the end of our lives. And"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1466.42,"endTime":1470.112,"body":"now I see it differently now. I see I've had"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1470.136,"endTime":1472.86,"body":"to step back after all this disillusionment and"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1473.96,"endTime":1477.52,"body":"repent. And I think unlearning"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1477.68,"endTime":1481.504,"body":"is so connected to repentance. I don't know how you can repent"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1481.632,"endTime":1485.26,"body":"without unlearning. And, you know,"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1485.88,"endTime":1488.78,"body":"I was in a Presbyterian church too, and"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1489.8,"endTime":1493.28,"body":"it's almost like repentance is like, weaponized against"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1493.32,"endTime":1496.84,"body":"you, like shame. It's connected to shame."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1497.66,"endTime":1501.476,"body":"And I don't think it was ever supposed to be like that. Right. You know,"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1501.548,"endTime":1505.3,"body":"we talk about it like it's a beautiful thing, but in action, people"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1505.34,"endTime":1509.076,"body":"are so covering up because it's"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1509.108,"endTime":1512.948,"body":"just not safe to be real. It's not safe to repent in"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1513.004,"endTime":1516.26,"body":"our churches, in our marriages, in our"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1516.3,"endTime":1519.44,"body":"families. You know, I know I had a hard time with my children,"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1519.9,"endTime":1523.578,"body":"with repentance, because"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1523.634,"endTime":1526.634,"body":"I was an authority figure over them. And I didn't. You know, I thought I"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1526.642,"endTime":1530.314,"body":"needed to be right. And so unlearning"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1530.442,"endTime":1534.122,"body":"is so freeing. Why keep. Keep it"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1534.146,"endTime":1537.85,"body":"up if it's wrong? And that's what repentance is."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1537.89,"endTime":1541.626,"body":"It's a letting go of what isn't true, you know, and it's a turning"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1541.658,"endTime":1545.386,"body":"towards goodness and truth. Yeah, I love that. The turning"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1545.418,"endTime":1548.95,"body":"toward goodness and truth, as opposed to the emphasis on"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1549.66,"endTime":1553.28,"body":"what you have valued or where you've been. It's the. It's the."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1554.14,"endTime":1557.94,"body":"It's. In the prodigal son story. It's, you know, the brother that has been"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1557.98,"endTime":1561.7,"body":"off in wild living and coming back. We think"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1561.74,"endTime":1565.412,"body":"that repentance is rehearsing the speech that he has about, I'm so"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1565.436,"endTime":1568.564,"body":"sorry for all the done thing. And yet it's coming back toward the joy and"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1568.572,"endTime":1572.34,"body":"the embrace. And that. That feels dangerous. Right? It's like. No,"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1572.38,"endTime":1576.212,"body":"it's gotta. It. It can't just be that. I mean, it can't be about the"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1576.236,"endTime":1579.268,"body":"father's open arms and him running. It's like I have to take at least"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1579.324,"endTime":1582.38,"body":"35% credit for how bad I am."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1582.92,"endTime":1586.4,"body":"Well, it's vulnerable too. Right? I mean, and. And that's the thing about"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1586.44,"endTime":1590.288,"body":"unlearning. That's the thing about repentance. And. And"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1590.344,"endTime":1594.096,"body":"in the church, I, you know, I saw these leaders just unable"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1594.208,"endTime":1597.856,"body":"to repent at all. And it's because"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1597.928,"endTime":1601.616,"body":"I. They knew it would be weaponized against them, and it. It wasn't really safe"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1601.648,"endTime":1605.072,"body":"for them to. So I just"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1605.096,"endTime":1608.498,"body":"think, what have. What are we doing in our culture"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1608.674,"endTime":1612.258,"body":"with that? You know, back to Emmanuel, loving us. He talks"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1612.274,"endTime":1616.034,"body":"about, you know, when. When we really get to the naked face, when we"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1616.042,"endTime":1619.55,"body":"get behind that countenance to the person's naked face."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1619.85,"endTime":1623.554,"body":"Yeah. They are vulnerable and. And we have an opportunity"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1623.602,"endTime":1627.394,"body":"to liquidate them in a sense. And so he talks about"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1627.482,"endTime":1631.09,"body":"how the other's face awakens"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1631.17,"endTime":1634.892,"body":"ours with the awakening, the commandment, thou shalt not"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1634.916,"endTime":1638.652,"body":"kill. And I believe on the other side of"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1638.676,"endTime":1642.22,"body":"that is it's awakening us to see"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1642.26,"endTime":1645.948,"body":"Christ in them and to love them in a very"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1646.004,"endTime":1649.836,"body":"active way. So. But it's"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1649.868,"endTime":1653.372,"body":"vulnerable and we know that and we just"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1653.476,"endTime":1657.26,"body":"run from it. We cover it. Yeah, yeah. Just like Adam and"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1657.3,"endTime":1661.102,"body":"Eve cover themselves with fig leaves. Yeah. So one of the"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1661.126,"endTime":1664.782,"body":"most vulnerable things you did throughout the book as well was to"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1664.886,"endTime":1668.51,"body":"talk about this style of relating, of being a good"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1668.55,"endTime":1672.318,"body":"girl. And the good girl is the metaphor"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1672.494,"endTime":1675.838,"body":"for the performer, the"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1675.894,"endTime":1679.598,"body":"face that looks like you're a good Christian. And following all that with"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1679.654,"endTime":1683.118,"body":"this belief that beneath that there's something that wouldn't be accepted and"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1683.174,"endTime":1686.8,"body":"loved. So it sounds like as we talk about"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1686.84,"endTime":1690.56,"body":"unlearning, that that's one of the things that you had to, and probably still"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1690.6,"endTime":1694.3,"body":"are. If you're like me. I always include. I still am"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1694.68,"endTime":1698.48,"body":"unlearn was this good girl. And you said, the. The good me"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1698.52,"endTime":1701.76,"body":"is never angry at God because she's not"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1701.8,"endTime":1705.616,"body":"real. God loves the real me. And so back, we're tying"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1705.648,"endTime":1709.424,"body":"together several things, but repentance is saying, hey, there's this good me"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1709.512,"endTime":1712.94,"body":"that I'm presenting to the world that's not the real me."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1713.4,"endTime":1717.152,"body":"And God loves the real me. So talk about that distinction"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1717.216,"endTime":1720.928,"body":"between the real us and the faces that we present that are"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1720.984,"endTime":1724.464,"body":"masks or self protective. Yeah. Like"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1724.632,"endTime":1728.448,"body":"we're presenting this Persona of ourselves that we think we're"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1728.464,"endTime":1731.984,"body":"supposed to be. And I was saying earlier that we convince ourselves that"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1732.152,"endTime":1735.632,"body":"we are. But I think there comes a time in our life, and I"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1735.656,"endTime":1739.034,"body":"know, like Carl Jung really talks about the midlife"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1739.082,"endTime":1742.602,"body":"transition in this kind of way to where we begin to"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1742.626,"endTime":1746.458,"body":"notice our shadow self, as he calls it. And poet"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1746.554,"endTime":1750.33,"body":"Robert Bly talks about it as kind of the. The"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1750.37,"endTime":1753.914,"body":"big black bag that we carry behind us on our backs."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1753.962,"endTime":1757.626,"body":"And in that we put all the messages of what isn't"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1757.658,"endTime":1761.13,"body":"good about us. And so then we aren't that anymore. You know, we"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1761.17,"endTime":1764.682,"body":"repress that about ourselves. And these aren't all bad things. It might"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1764.706,"endTime":1768.552,"body":"be sensitivity even, you know, and so now we don't do"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1768.576,"endTime":1771.3,"body":"that. You know, for me, I think one of the things was"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1772.48,"endTime":1775.992,"body":"my. I felt like my relationship with God as a child and a"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1776.016,"endTime":1779.56,"body":"teenager was more mystical. And as I began"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1779.64,"endTime":1783.064,"body":"to get more theologically Vigorous. I"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1783.232,"endTime":1787.032,"body":"came to the realization that was wrong, that, you know,"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1787.056,"endTime":1790.184,"body":"that's all bad stuff, you know, I shouldn't be that way. Stuff it in the"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1790.192,"endTime":1793.944,"body":"bag, quick, quick, and don't go back, just carry it"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1793.952,"endTime":1797.768,"body":"on your back and, you know, so I think a lot of it too,"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1797.824,"endTime":1801.144,"body":"in opening up the bag though, and in that chapter where I talk about the"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1801.152,"endTime":1804.952,"body":"good me, I was harmed badly, but I need to"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1804.976,"endTime":1808.728,"body":"look at the ways that I've harmed others as well and what would bring me"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1808.784,"endTime":1812.248,"body":"to do that kind of thing, you know. And so I talk about a way"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1812.304,"endTime":1815.3,"body":"I harmed a dear friend of mine. And"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1815.92,"endTime":1819.48,"body":"in telling that memory, I realized, like, that was the good"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1819.52,"endTime":1823.042,"body":"me. That whole time I was being so self righteous, you"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1823.066,"endTime":1826.51,"body":"know, at my friend in a suffering marriage and"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1827.45,"endTime":1831.074,"body":"I wrote her this horrible shaming letter for"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1831.162,"endTime":1835.01,"body":"leaving her husband and I had no clue what was going"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1835.05,"endTime":1838.882,"body":"on in her life, you know, but both of our moms left, so"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1838.906,"endTime":1842.562,"body":"I thought she knew better and this kind of thing. And I was being the"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1842.586,"endTime":1845.762,"body":"good me the whole time. But now when I was looking back on the memory,"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1845.826,"endTime":1848.692,"body":"I'm thinking there was nothing good about the"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1848.876,"endTime":1852.628,"body":"insensitivity that I had for my dear friend."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1852.684,"endTime":1856.52,"body":"And it put a huge, huge wedge in our relationship."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1857.02,"endTime":1860.08,"body":"She needed a friend and I gave her the good me."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1860.62,"endTime":1864.34,"body":"And so I think that story memory can really"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1864.38,"endTime":1868.228,"body":"help with that as well. But we need to integrate these parts"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1868.244,"endTime":1871.72,"body":"of us into our lives and even something like sinfulness."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1872.15,"endTime":1875.982,"body":"I'm not saying, oh, we need to embrace sin by any means,"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1876.166,"endTime":1879.982,"body":"we don't want to sin. But I think you get to"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1880.006,"endTime":1882.878,"body":"a point in your life where you realize, okay, it's not just like, I repent,"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1883.054,"endTime":1886.83,"body":"I do these steps of spiritual growth and now"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1886.87,"endTime":1890.702,"body":"I don't have to deal with that anymore. No, we still have to deal"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1890.726,"endTime":1894.462,"body":"with that stuff. So we can put it in the bag. But we're ignoring"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1894.526,"endTime":1897.37,"body":"something that's very much affecting our actions still."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1897.92,"endTime":1901.736,"body":"So we need to have that before ourselves and before"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1901.808,"endTime":1905.592,"body":"God, I think, at all times so that we can have a better relationship"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1905.656,"endTime":1909.048,"body":"and understanding. What information is this giving me about"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1909.104,"endTime":1912.728,"body":"myself? Why do I do this? Why do I think this way?"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1912.784,"endTime":1916.36,"body":"Or what is it? There's real work to do with"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1916.4,"endTime":1920.18,"body":"those parts of ourselves than just acting like we can"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1921.04,"endTime":1924.504,"body":"say a prayer of repentance or whatever and"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1924.592,"endTime":1928.27,"body":"banish it from our lives and move on. Yeah, yeah."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1928.85,"endTime":1931.83,"body":"So as you write in the book and as you're talking now,"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1932.61,"endTime":1936.378,"body":"this way of, of, of living in"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1936.434,"endTime":1940.186,"body":"God with this bedrock foundation"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1940.298,"endTime":1943.818,"body":"that his face shines upon us and you know, you read"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1943.874,"endTime":1947.45,"body":"that, the. The numbers prayer. And this"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1947.49,"endTime":1951.114,"body":"morning I actually wrote that out in a big fat. I love Sharpies. And I"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1951.122,"endTime":1954.01,"body":"wrote it on a single page, eight and a half by 11. So it's really"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1954.05,"endTime":1957.642,"body":"big because I. I've never actually memorized that. Which, as an ordained minister, probably I"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1957.666,"endTime":1961.51,"body":"would get. But. But I circled all the"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1961.55,"endTime":1965.318,"body":"words of blessing in there, and it's not just his face shine, but"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1965.374,"endTime":1968.934,"body":"gracious and peace. And I can't remember the others, but it's like,"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1969.022,"endTime":1972.534,"body":"here's this sentence or two sentences that is just"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1972.622,"endTime":1976.246,"body":"loaded, loaded. The generosity of God."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1976.438,"endTime":1979.414,"body":"And it was just so beautiful. And I. And I was like, I've got to"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1979.422,"endTime":1982.774,"body":"memorize this. The same way that if somebody says, hey, here's this great movie that"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1982.782,"endTime":1984.902,"body":"you have to see, it's like, of course I'm going to see that, because I"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1984.926,"endTime":1988.76,"body":"trust that friend. And like you, I had"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1988.8,"endTime":1992.344,"body":"heard that. That verse 10,000 times, you know, at the end of church"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1992.392,"endTime":1995.56,"body":"services. Right. How many times have we heard that? Yeah. And I think I really"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1995.6,"endTime":1999.4,"body":"saw it this morning. So I want to move toward wrapping up. And there's two"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":1999.44,"endTime":2001.9,"body":"things that were my favorite"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2002.72,"endTime":2006.344,"body":"sentences or stories. And the first."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2006.432,"endTime":2010.1,"body":"And this relates to. Since we talked about the good. The good me"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2010.56,"endTime":2014.052,"body":"in quotes, the real you. And I'm a"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2014.076,"endTime":2017.3,"body":"psychotherapist, so, you know, forgive me for doing an interpretation,"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2017.38,"endTime":2020.964,"body":"but you wrote at the beginning about. Spin,"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2021.092,"endTime":2024.868,"body":"Amy, spin. Yeah, yeah. Exclamation point. And that's"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2024.884,"endTime":2028.692,"body":"when I teared up as a dad. My kids are now 22"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2028.716,"endTime":2032.292,"body":"and 27, but remembering back to when they were little. And"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2032.316,"endTime":2036.052,"body":"then it took me back to. Not a sit and spin, but to my. To"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2036.076,"endTime":2039.886,"body":"my Big Wheel. Yeah. And it touched"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2039.918,"endTime":2043.518,"body":"the little boy in me about the. You know, the"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2043.574,"endTime":2047.07,"body":"father saying over you, spin, Amy, spin."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2047.23,"endTime":2051.006,"body":"And so on the other side of that good girl, there's this girl that's"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2051.038,"endTime":2054.766,"body":"just free. And it felt like in the book, you were just"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2054.838,"endTime":2058.43,"body":"unleashed and free to bring those two"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2058.47,"endTime":2062.222,"body":"parts together. Wow, that feels so good to"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2062.246,"endTime":2065.925,"body":"hear. Because, you know, I think I was discovering that while"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2065.997,"endTime":2069.717,"body":"writing it. Yeah. And that's the cool thing, too, about"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2069.773,"endTime":2073.189,"body":"doing the storied memories. Like, that was one of my first"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2073.309,"endTime":2077.061,"body":"memories. My first memory. And we had an"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2077.085,"endTime":2080.917,"body":"assignment in psychology class to write your first memory. And, you know,"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2080.973,"endTime":2084.581,"body":"it's supposedly supposed to have something to do with your personality. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2084.645,"endTime":2088.325,"body":"And that's what mine was. My grandmother visiting. And"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2088.397,"endTime":2092.069,"body":"I think I was barely. I don't think I was three yet,"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2092.109,"endTime":2095.202,"body":"because we hadn't moved yet. We were still in Our townhouse. And she brought a"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2095.226,"endTime":2098.67,"body":"sit and spin. And I just went to town on that thing. And"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2099.21,"endTime":2102.67,"body":"you know, a neat thing in writing that memory was."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2104.81,"endTime":2108.514,"body":"I didn't realize part of my memory was seeing my grandmother's"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2108.562,"endTime":2112.242,"body":"face delighting in me as I was doing that. Yeah. And my grandfather,"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2112.306,"endTime":2115.922,"body":"you know, and just really getting a kick out of how I was enjoying the"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2115.946,"endTime":2119.714,"body":"gift that they gave me. And spin, spin,"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2119.762,"endTime":2123.318,"body":"spin. And so when I wrote it, I thought, that's kind of a silly first"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2123.374,"endTime":2126.934,"body":"memory. But then when I wrote spin e me spin, I was like, yeah,"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2126.982,"endTime":2130.71,"body":"this does tell me something about my personality that I remember this."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2130.83,"endTime":2134.454,"body":"Yeah. And their delight and enjoyment"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2134.502,"endTime":2138.342,"body":"over you wasn't because you were exegeting Greek and Hebrew words or"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2138.446,"endTime":2142.166,"body":"parsing the grammar. Nor was it, as you tell in another"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2142.238,"endTime":2146.006,"body":"sad story of your mom and dad before they're"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2146.038,"endTime":2149.684,"body":"divorced and they're beautiful, singing in your dad's folk music. And then"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2149.862,"endTime":2153.64,"body":"while your mom washed dishes. And it was a beautiful thing, but then you"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2153.68,"endTime":2157.496,"body":"were in the kitchen washing dishes and you were suddenly alone. So it's not even"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2157.568,"endTime":2161.32,"body":"the delight is not because you're washing dishes or cooking meals. It's just"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2161.36,"endTime":2164.632,"body":"because you're this child and you have joy. And that's so"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2164.656,"endTime":2168.488,"body":"beautiful. So this has never happened before with a book I've"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2168.504,"endTime":2172.152,"body":"read for a podcast. But I won't say this is a prophetic word, but I"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2172.176,"endTime":2175.46,"body":"had a vision as I was reading the book. No way for you."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2175.77,"endTime":2179.138,"body":"And what I saw was a forest. I grew"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2179.154,"endTime":2182.114,"body":"up on the outer edge of urban"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2182.162,"endTime":2186.002,"body":"Cleveland on a four lane highway. And we had this very strange"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2186.066,"endTime":2189.618,"body":"yard. It was like a bowling alley. It was 800ft deep and on both"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2189.674,"endTime":2193.346,"body":"sides it was lined with pine trees. It wasn't a forest. It was very"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2193.418,"endTime":2197.202,"body":"urban, suburban. And there were probably 40 pine trees. And we"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2197.226,"endTime":2199.762,"body":"would climb in them and I built a tree for it. So I'm reading your"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2199.786,"endTime":2203.474,"body":"book and I had this picture of a forest"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2203.522,"endTime":2207.362,"body":"of pine, pine trees. And it's maybe like 20 acres. And in the middle of"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2207.386,"endTime":2211.01,"body":"the forest, these boys. And it was very clear that they were"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2211.05,"endTime":2214.866,"body":"not mature boys. They were, they were boys. And they"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2214.938,"endTime":2218.722,"body":"take some old scraps of wood and some nails and a hammer and they build"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2218.746,"endTime":2222.594,"body":"a tree house. It's not very high up in the middle of this forest."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2222.642,"endTime":2226.354,"body":"And it's. It's really kind of ramshackle. And they put a"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2226.362,"endTime":2230.194,"body":"big sign on the outside of the tree house, this kind of fort"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2230.242,"endTime":2233.988,"body":"that says no girls allowed. And kind of that kid writing,"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2234.084,"endTime":2237.36,"body":"you know, like you see on the little Rascals or something like that."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2239.1,"endTime":2242.788,"body":"And then they're in this fort, and they start to call"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2242.844,"endTime":2246.5,"body":"this the palace of the kingdom. This is where"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2246.54,"endTime":2249.796,"body":"God dwells, and this is our place. And there are no girls"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2249.828,"endTime":2253.588,"body":"allowed. And then God shows up, and"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2253.724,"endTime":2257.572,"body":"he's kind of hovering over this forest. And the words"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2257.636,"endTime":2261.252,"body":"spin, Amy, spin are there, and you're on your sit and spin kind of on"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2261.276,"endTime":2264.738,"body":"the outer edges of the forest. You know, you've been relegated."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2264.834,"endTime":2268.05,"body":"And as you spin with the joy on your"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2268.09,"endTime":2271.65,"body":"face, this forest goes from 20 acres to 40"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2271.69,"endTime":2275.09,"body":"acres to 100 acres. And it just expands"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2275.25,"endTime":2278.39,"body":"because of your spinning. Whoa."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2278.81,"endTime":2282.434,"body":"And that's why I said this book was really special."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2282.602,"endTime":2286.354,"body":"And so with all of the harassment and the bullying that you've gone"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2286.402,"endTime":2289.892,"body":"through, you know, if we like to quote probably"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2289.956,"endTime":2293.54,"body":"flippantly and patronizingly, a lot of times in Genesis, the what"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2293.58,"endTime":2297.412,"body":"God, what, what? What was intended for evil will be used for"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2297.436,"endTime":2301.06,"body":"good. But here we are in Lent, and we're looking"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2301.1,"endTime":2304.66,"body":"at Good Friday and Holy Saturday and the resurrection."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2304.74,"endTime":2308.212,"body":"And your story in Saving Face is really a resurrection"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2308.276,"endTime":2311.972,"body":"story. And as. As you live in the freedom of"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2311.996,"endTime":2315.78,"body":"not having to be the good girl, and as you live just in this"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2315.82,"endTime":2319.284,"body":"place of I'm going to piss some people off, and there's people that are going"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2319.292,"endTime":2323.06,"body":"to be insecure, and as the no girls allowed sign is on"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2323.1,"endTime":2326.452,"body":"that, that ramshackle thing that is being called the kingdom of"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2326.476,"endTime":2329.508,"body":"God, that as you spin, the kingdom actually"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2329.564,"endTime":2332.58,"body":"expands around the outer edges to the place that are"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2332.62,"endTime":2335.04,"body":"desperate for the kind of"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2336.22,"endTime":2340.02,"body":"courage that you have to integrate your story with the story of God and just"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2340.06,"endTime":2343.748,"body":"the. Just the winsomeness of your experience of God. It's"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2343.764,"endTime":2347.44,"body":"really, really beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing that with"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2347.48,"endTime":2351.248,"body":"me, because, I mean, there's tons of insecurity"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2351.424,"endTime":2354.38,"body":"going through this kind of stuff and"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2355.4,"endTime":2359.232,"body":"liminality without having that certainty that I thought"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2359.256,"endTime":2362.592,"body":"I had before. So, I mean, that is something that"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2362.616,"endTime":2366.432,"body":"I'm now going to remind myself, this vision that"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2366.456,"endTime":2370.272,"body":"you had and to keep spinning. Well, my"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2370.296,"endTime":2373.992,"body":"friend Paul Young, who wrote the book the Shack, which is obviously in"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2374.016,"endTime":2377.8,"body":"many circles controversial, but it's profoundly impacted me,"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2377.84,"endTime":2381.544,"body":"as has my friendship with Paul. He once said that God"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2381.592,"endTime":2385.112,"body":"doesn't save us so that he can use us. He saves us so he can"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2385.136,"endTime":2388.02,"body":"make us whole, and then he invites us to play."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2388.88,"endTime":2392.552,"body":"And I love that idea that life in the spirit, life in"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2392.576,"endTime":2395.688,"body":"God as a follower of Jesus, is not meant to be"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2395.744,"endTime":2399.336,"body":"burdensome, but to be playful"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2399.528,"endTime":2403.346,"body":"in terms of being connected to our truest self. So I'm glad that somehow"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2403.378,"endTime":2407.202,"body":"that encourages you. All right, last thing toward the end"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2407.226,"endTime":2410.51,"body":"of the book, there's the theme all throughout of"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2410.89,"endTime":2414.562,"body":"looking for a new church home and disappointment and struggle and"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2414.586,"endTime":2418.274,"body":"exhaustion. And a friend says to you, why don't you try the"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2418.282,"endTime":2421.506,"body":"mainline church? And, you know, my heart raced there because I'm"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2421.538,"endTime":2424.43,"body":"Episcopalian and have found a real home there."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2425.45,"endTime":2429.122,"body":"I went back to my Catholic roots at one point, and that wasn't exactly a"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2429.146,"endTime":2432.862,"body":"fit. So I was going to say, let's see where this goes. And you go"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2432.886,"endTime":2436.398,"body":"to the Methodist church and the"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2436.534,"endTime":2439.97,"body":"pastor is a woman, but she's on maternity leave."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2440.31,"endTime":2444.11,"body":"And you're there for, I think, a couple of weeks. But she came"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2444.15,"endTime":2447.902,"body":"back from maternity leave and there was a celebration, and her name"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2447.926,"endTime":2451.15,"body":"is Katie, I think. And she delivered her"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2451.19,"endTime":2454.878,"body":"sermon from behind the pulpit with her newborn baby,"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2454.974,"endTime":2458.462,"body":"a son, attached to her chest."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2458.606,"endTime":2462.334,"body":"I'm assuming it was in a Baby Bjorn or a sling or something like that,"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2462.502,"endTime":2466.302,"body":"but oh, my gosh, what a compelling picture. So tell"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2466.326,"endTime":2470.17,"body":"me what that was like for you. And"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2472.15,"endTime":2475.63,"body":"to me, it almost felt like. Not that the word vindication is"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2475.67,"endTime":2479.518,"body":"necessary, but God just smiling at you. Well, like one more"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2479.574,"endTime":2482.888,"body":"final smile in the book. Well,"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2482.944,"endTime":2486.776,"body":"thanks. Yeah. So we went to this Methodist church that's"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2486.808,"endTime":2490.408,"body":"just right down the road. And Katie was on maternity leave, we found"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2490.464,"endTime":2493.98,"body":"out. And one of the first things I noticed,"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2494.64,"endTime":2498.472,"body":"you know, I shot up this prayer. Christ, I've been looking for you in"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2498.496,"endTime":2502.232,"body":"your church. You know, just please show me yourself. And"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2502.256,"endTime":2505.976,"body":"he was all over the place that day, like, showing up in the liturgy."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2506.088,"endTime":2509.814,"body":"You know, I was told in the Presbyterian circles that the Methodists"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2509.862,"endTime":2513.462,"body":"have lost the gospel. You know, they don't share the gospel anymore. And it was"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2513.486,"endTime":2516.518,"body":"all over the place. And there was a woman preacher that day as a stand"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2516.574,"endTime":2520.39,"body":"in. And, you know, I. All"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2520.43,"endTime":2524.278,"body":"of this harassment towards me is because I'm a woman who was writing books and"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2524.334,"endTime":2528.05,"body":"having some influence with my writing. And I critiqued the"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2529.07,"endTime":2532.55,"body":"movement of quote, unquote, biblical manhood and womanhood and this"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2532.59,"endTime":2535.408,"body":"whole theology of what's called"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2535.464,"endTime":2539.056,"body":"complementarianism, which is like benevolent male leadership."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2539.248,"endTime":2543.072,"body":"And so women preaching is just. Was just"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2543.096,"endTime":2546.34,"body":"like anathema, okay, you're going to hell."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2547.4,"endTime":2551.1,"body":"And I knew that wasn't the case, but it was still,"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2551.4,"endTime":2554.928,"body":"you know, you're so vilified with it. So"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2555.064,"endTime":2558.656,"body":"we heard this beautiful sermon, and then we hear that the pastor's on maternity leave"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2558.688,"endTime":2562.49,"body":"for three months. And I thought, well, a, this"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2562.53,"endTime":2566.282,"body":"church is functioning so well without the preacher here, without the"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2566.306,"endTime":2570.09,"body":"pastor. Clearly, it. It isn't Based on a big"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2570.13,"endTime":2573.898,"body":"hierarchy. She's empowered others. And this is more every member"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2573.954,"endTime":2577.03,"body":"ministry happening around here. And I loved that."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2577.89,"endTime":2581.37,"body":"Secondly, I wanted to meet this"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2581.41,"endTime":2584.79,"body":"pastor then, you know, and see what it's like when she's there."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2585.26,"endTime":2588.612,"body":"So, yeah, she had a little two year old, and then this"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2588.636,"endTime":2592.452,"body":"newborn, and she's just coming back from maternity leave, and I"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2592.476,"endTime":2596.148,"body":"walk in and she's got the baby strapped to her chest. And I'm"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2596.164,"endTime":2599.412,"body":"thinking, you know, I wonder when she's gonna get that baby off of her so"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2599.436,"endTime":2602.932,"body":"she can get to work, you know, and she"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2603.036,"endTime":2606.692,"body":"does the children's church time and she's bouncing"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2606.756,"endTime":2610.516,"body":"little, little Wilbur while she's talking about Jesus, weeping,"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2610.548,"endTime":2614.392,"body":"you know, and then she gets up to deliver the sermon."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2614.536,"endTime":2618.072,"body":"And I sat there and watched a woman deliver a sermon with a"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2618.096,"endTime":2621.62,"body":"baby attached to her chest the entire time."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2622.08,"endTime":2625.912,"body":"I was in awe because the message was so different. And, you know,"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2625.936,"endTime":2629.576,"body":"and one big. One big criticism of"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2629.648,"endTime":2633.352,"body":"egalitarian churches is that they say, yeah, sure, women can do"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2633.376,"endTime":2637.176,"body":"what men can do, but do it like us, you know, like, there's"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2637.208,"endTime":2640.964,"body":"nothing special about your femininity in the job. Just act like"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2640.972,"endTime":2644.788,"body":"a man. And here she comes up, and I just felt like, you know,"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2644.844,"endTime":2648.5,"body":"all these preachers that I've watched where their wives"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2648.58,"endTime":2651.908,"body":"are watching the kids, or their wives are getting the kids out of the way,"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2651.964,"endTime":2655.56,"body":"you know, so they can do this important job of preaching."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2655.9,"endTime":2659.748,"body":"And I saw something very, very different in this"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2659.804,"endTime":2663.572,"body":"picture. And it's almost like, you know, she told all those guys, like, hold my"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2663.596,"endTime":2667.318,"body":"beer. You know what I mean? Like, never mind, I'll hold it myself."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2667.494,"endTime":2670.09,"body":"And she showed"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2670.99,"endTime":2674.81,"body":"motherhood and preaching"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2675.15,"endTime":2678.646,"body":"together. And I thought about all the women who have,"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2678.718,"endTime":2682.486,"body":"over time, like, served in the cotton fields with babies tied"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2682.518,"endTime":2685.446,"body":"to them, you know, and all the work women have done with babies their whole"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2685.478,"endTime":2689.062,"body":"lives. But this was even different than that,"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2689.086,"endTime":2692.62,"body":"because this was choice. She didn't have to do it, you"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2692.66,"endTime":2695.88,"body":"know, she just did it."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2696.42,"endTime":2699.948,"body":"And it was powerful. Really"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2700.004,"endTime":2703.676,"body":"powerful. Wow. Thanks for. Thanks for reflecting"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2703.708,"endTime":2707.532,"body":"back on that. The reason why it was so powerful to me. Well, first,"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2707.556,"endTime":2711.388,"body":"let me say this. Those"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2711.444,"endTime":2714.892,"body":"who think that women's femininity doesn't"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2714.956,"endTime":2718.492,"body":"matter and that they just should preach like a man, or they would preach like"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2718.516,"endTime":2722.204,"body":"a man. Men cannot reveal the tenderness"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2722.252,"endTime":2725.16,"body":"of God, which is what women can bring"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2725.46,"endTime":2729.228,"body":"exponentially. More so. And the world today is not hungry for"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2729.284,"endTime":2733.084,"body":"doctrine. They are hungry for tenderness. The world desperately"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2733.132,"endTime":2736.76,"body":"needs tenderness. And that's why women are"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2737.22,"endTime":2741.052,"body":"far more prophetic today in the kinds of roles that are pastoral and"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2741.076,"endTime":2744.828,"body":"theological. Than men. I'll just stop"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2744.884,"endTime":2748.612,"body":"there. But what I thought of when I. When I read"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2748.636,"endTime":2751.652,"body":"that story, and it was another one that brought tears to my eyes, I. Every"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2751.676,"endTime":2755.492,"body":"morning I pray Psalm 131. My eyes are not haughty."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2755.556,"endTime":2759.332,"body":"My heart is not proud. I don't concern myself with great"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2759.356,"endTime":2762.98,"body":"matters or things too wonderful for me. But I have calmed"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2763.06,"endTime":2766.692,"body":"myself. I've quieted my ambitions. I'm like a"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2766.716,"endTime":2770.16,"body":"weaned child with its mother. Like a weaned child, I am content."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2770.86,"endTime":2774.614,"body":"And my goodness, what a powerful picture of the weaned"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2774.662,"endTime":2777.942,"body":"child. That three month old may not have been weaned, but content."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2778.126,"endTime":2781.59,"body":"They're right there. While mom is living in"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2781.63,"endTime":2785.43,"body":"this beautiful vocation of just being who she"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2785.47,"endTime":2788.85,"body":"is and not pretending, quote, that she had to go to work."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2789.95,"endTime":2791.73,"body":"So it's almost as if"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2794.43,"endTime":2797.75,"body":"the men that caused you harm, and in my"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2797.79,"endTime":2801.25,"body":"addictions, I have caused harm to women in the past."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2803.08,"endTime":2806.864,"body":"The antidote to that is to be calm and to quiet"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2806.912,"endTime":2810.64,"body":"our ambitions, all of our strategies, all of our certainty, and then to be"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2810.68,"endTime":2814.016,"body":"content with just who we are and what your book just"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2814.088,"endTime":2817.76,"body":"nails with calling us to have a face and"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2817.8,"endTime":2821.472,"body":"to look into our own faces, the faces of others and the face of"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2821.496,"endTime":2825.04,"body":"God is to be content with that."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2825.08,"endTime":2828.832,"body":"Because that's when we're loved. In that place of contentment, not needing to be any"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2828.856,"endTime":2832.678,"body":"more or any less. I can tell you're"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2832.694,"endTime":2836.214,"body":"in the right vocation, because I feel like I'm in. I've just been through a"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2836.222,"endTime":2839.75,"body":"really good therapy session in this interview with my own"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2839.79,"endTime":2843.622,"body":"work. Yeah, Well, I"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2843.646,"endTime":2846.838,"body":"feel like I was in a therapy session as I read your book. So that's"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2846.854,"endTime":2850.53,"body":"why it's so powerful. And we need more authors like you. We need more"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2851.15,"endTime":2854.646,"body":"women who are willing to be themselves"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2854.838,"endTime":2857.88,"body":"and to. To speak out what's true."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2858.3,"endTime":2862.004,"body":"I've not yet read Beth Elson Barr's newest book about becoming a"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2862.012,"endTime":2865.508,"body":"pastor's wife. But, you know, the big surprise, quote, no"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2865.564,"endTime":2867.84,"body":"surprise, is that it's women"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2869.1,"endTime":2872.724,"body":"who are much for the part perpetuating"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2872.852,"endTime":2876.148,"body":"a lot of the subordination of women. Oh, yeah?"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2876.324,"endTime":2879.828,"body":"Yes. And she gets into that in a good portion of her book as well."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2879.884,"endTime":2882.68,"body":"I mean, to me, that's the height of patriarchy."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2883.87,"endTime":2887.622,"body":"One more question. Sure. Okay. And this was"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2887.646,"endTime":2891.302,"body":"just a little curiosity I had, and I don't know if it's the therapist to"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2891.326,"endTime":2894.342,"body":"me, but one of the things you did through your writing, I called it the"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2894.366,"endTime":2898.102,"body":"Jim Gaffigan moment. Have you seen"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2898.126,"endTime":2901.782,"body":"Jim Gaffigan? Where he's talking and then there's this alter"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2901.846,"endTime":2905.51,"body":"ego voice where it's like this little old lady in the audience that goes, I"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2905.55,"endTime":2909.302,"body":"can't believe you just said that. So the"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2909.326,"endTime":2913.132,"body":"first time I saw it was you were talking about dream interpretation. And"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2913.156,"endTime":2916.012,"body":"one of the things that you journaled was your own dream. And then you put"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2916.036,"endTime":2919.804,"body":"in parentheses after you said, you know, kind of qualifying that,"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2919.892,"endTime":2923.74,"body":"you know, it's not canon, it's not sacred scripture or dream interpretation. And you said"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2923.78,"endTime":2926.6,"body":"something like, you know, this is. This is not"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2926.9,"endTime":2930.172,"body":"definable. Yeah. And. And then you put in"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2930.196,"endTime":2932.56,"body":"parentheses, should I say that twice?"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2934.9,"endTime":2938.498,"body":"And then there was another part, and I think there were multiple ones, where you"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2938.554,"endTime":2942.05,"body":"wrote in italics in a kind of parenthesis. Did I really just say"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2942.09,"endTime":2945.602,"body":"that? Like what you just said? So there was this process."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2945.786,"endTime":2949.442,"body":"And what I'm wondering is. And I think this would be very, very hopeful for"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2949.466,"endTime":2953.106,"body":"people listening, because here you are, you've written books, you're a theologian, you're"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2953.138,"endTime":2956.946,"body":"brilliant, and yet you're questioning yourself. And there's"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2956.978,"endTime":2960.69,"body":"a kind of. It wasn't quite scrutinizing, but"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2960.73,"endTime":2964.502,"body":"it was being cautious. And that was so"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2964.526,"endTime":2968.134,"body":"hopeful to me. Like, oh, you can have this core"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2968.182,"endTime":2971.718,"body":"conviction and then kind of wonder and put it out there. Like, do I really"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2971.774,"endTime":2975.542,"body":"want to say that that's part of this journey of having a"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2975.566,"endTime":2979.11,"body":"face? It is. And it's interesting that you picked up on"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2979.15,"endTime":2982.582,"body":"that. I didn't think of it as a Jim Gaffkin thing or that I was"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2982.606,"endTime":2986.45,"body":"even doing a thing, but, you know, I think one."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2986.75,"endTime":2990.05,"body":"One thing that coming out of such abuse is"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2990.48,"endTime":2994.232,"body":"hearing those voices, your accusers, all the time. Like, as I'm writing, I"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2994.256,"endTime":2998.104,"body":"know what my accusers are going to say and think, and to get past that"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":2998.192,"endTime":3001.528,"body":"is really hard. And then you have your own voice"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":3001.704,"endTime":3005.272,"body":"that's saying things as well, which I really want to be in"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":3005.296,"endTime":3008.84,"body":"conversation with. So, yeah, in this"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":3008.88,"endTime":3012.6,"body":"book, my writing style is different, and"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":3012.64,"endTime":3016.072,"body":"I've loosened up a lot. I wanted it to be more"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":3016.096,"endTime":3019.762,"body":"contemplative. I wanted it to be more. A little bit more stream of"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":3019.786,"endTime":3023.586,"body":"conscious, and I wanted to be more creative with my writing. And"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":3023.658,"endTime":3026.43,"body":"so, you know, that. That just got in there."},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":3026.89,"endTime":3030.642,"body":"Yeah. Well, Amy Bird, thank you. You didn't just do"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":3030.666,"endTime":3034.034,"body":"the work of creating this book, saving Face, which was"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":3034.202,"endTime":3038.002,"body":"a labor of love, but you've also done your own work,"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":3038.106,"endTime":3041.922,"body":"spiritually, emotionally, relationally, psychologically. And I"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":3041.946,"endTime":3045.762,"body":"have great admiration for you, and I'm a big fan. So thank you for"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":3045.786,"endTime":3049.512,"body":"taking the time today to talk. Oh, thank you so much for having me on,"},{"speaker":"Numbers 6","startTime":3049.536,"endTime":3051.112,"body":"Michael. It was a real pleasure talking with."}]}