{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.32,"endTime":4.12,"body":"Hi, everybody. Welcome to Restoring the Soul. I'm Michael,"},{"startTime":4.2,"endTime":8.024,"body":"and I'm with my friend AJ In Texas. Hello. Hi,"},{"startTime":8.072,"endTime":11.688,"body":"aj. Man, great to be here. Thanks for having me."},{"startTime":11.824,"endTime":15.592,"body":"It's great to be here. It's great to be with you. This has been"},{"startTime":15.616,"endTime":19.192,"body":"fun as what started out as an experiment has really felt like a"},{"startTime":19.216,"endTime":22.62,"body":"smooth, fun set of conversations."},{"startTime":23.04,"endTime":26.84,"body":"Absolutely. I've so enjoyed having these conversations and going"},{"startTime":26.88,"endTime":30.252,"body":"deeper into this. It's a great time. Thank you for having me. You"},{"startTime":30.276,"endTime":33.804,"body":"bet. Here's the topic for today, and"},{"startTime":33.972,"endTime":37.4,"body":"we just thought this up yesterday, but it's been close to my heart."},{"startTime":38.02,"endTime":41.58,"body":"We've been talking a lot about sacred attachment, and I"},{"startTime":41.62,"endTime":45.42,"body":"don't want to just go through chapter by chapter and say, here's the high"},{"startTime":45.46,"endTime":49.116,"body":"points. Rather, I've wanted to take some of the major"},{"startTime":49.188,"endTime":52.62,"body":"and minor themes and present them kind of freestanding and"},{"startTime":52.66,"endTime":56.46,"body":"then give people a taste of, okay, this is the conversation. This is the"},{"startTime":56.5,"endTime":60.032,"body":"language. This is the lens for the book. And now I might go read the"},{"startTime":60.056,"endTime":63.856,"body":"book. And not trying to become a publishing mogul, but"},{"startTime":63.928,"endTime":67.728,"body":"I want. I want people to receive this message because"},{"startTime":67.864,"endTime":71.424,"body":"I believe that it's life changing, it's paradigm"},{"startTime":71.472,"endTime":75.248,"body":"changing for how we walk with God, how we become whole."},{"startTime":75.344,"endTime":79.008,"body":"So I'd like to start with the topic. The topic today is"},{"startTime":79.064,"endTime":82.56,"body":"two kinds of Christians. Two kinds of"},{"startTime":82.6,"endTime":86.16,"body":"Christians. Now, some people might say this is"},{"startTime":86.2,"endTime":89.952,"body":"reductionistic. You know, you can't boil down every follower of Jesus"},{"startTime":90.096,"endTime":93.328,"body":"in the world to these two categories. But this is not me"},{"startTime":93.384,"endTime":97.104,"body":"speaking. This is the eminent, widely"},{"startTime":97.152,"endTime":100.912,"body":"respected professor, Dr. Rodney Reeves, who I"},{"startTime":100.936,"endTime":104.432,"body":"had on our podcast a few years back. He wrote a little book called the"},{"startTime":104.456,"endTime":108.192,"body":"Spirituality of John, and he looked at the"},{"startTime":108.216,"endTime":112.052,"body":"heart of John and how we develop an interior life through all"},{"startTime":112.076,"endTime":115.3,"body":"of John's writings, first, second, and third John, as well as the Gospel of John,"},{"startTime":115.34,"endTime":119.044,"body":"and then, of course, revelation. That's awesome. And I"},{"startTime":119.132,"endTime":122.628,"body":"read that book for my interview, and the opening paragraph"},{"startTime":122.804,"endTime":126.532,"body":"of that book, the Spirituality of John, had these words in"},{"startTime":126.556,"endTime":130.388,"body":"it. And as soon as I read these, this long"},{"startTime":130.444,"endTime":134.052,"body":"paragraph, I thought, that's going to be on the front end of my book. I"},{"startTime":134.076,"endTime":137.67,"body":"have since learned that it's called an epigraph. I thought epi"},{"startTime":137.83,"endTime":141.526,"body":"was, like, @ the end, but that's not necessarily"},{"startTime":141.558,"endTime":145.206,"body":"what it means, because epilogue, we all know that. Right? That's what happens after"},{"startTime":145.278,"endTime":148.37,"body":"the last chapter, where it's the closing of the story."},{"startTime":148.99,"endTime":152.63,"body":"So here's what Rodney Reeves wrote, and I'll just read this one"},{"startTime":152.67,"endTime":156.486,"body":"time slowly. But this sets up the conversation around"},{"startTime":156.558,"endTime":159.958,"body":"two kinds of Christians. So Reeves writes,"},{"startTime":160.134,"endTime":163.69,"body":"there are two kinds of Christians, list makers and. And"},{"startTime":163.73,"endTime":167.562,"body":"storytellers. Answering one question reveals the"},{"startTime":167.586,"endTime":170.99,"body":"difference. What does it take to be a Christian?"},{"startTime":171.57,"endTime":174.97,"body":"List makers will talk about doctrines you must believe or"},{"startTime":175.01,"endTime":178.682,"body":"commandments you must keep. As long as you believe the right things"},{"startTime":178.786,"endTime":181.71,"body":"or do the right things, that's what makes you a Christian."},{"startTime":182.29,"endTime":186.01,"body":"Storytellers, on the other hand, will say, let me"},{"startTime":186.05,"endTime":189.594,"body":"tell you about my grandmother. That's when I lean"},{"startTime":189.642,"endTime":192.89,"body":"in, because I find the art of Christian living"},{"startTime":193.39,"endTime":196.422,"body":"far more compelling than a theological"},{"startTime":196.486,"endTime":200.294,"body":"argument. It didn't used to be that way, though. When I"},{"startTime":200.302,"endTime":204.15,"body":"was a young man, I relished the opportunity to jump into the middle of"},{"startTime":204.19,"endTime":207.958,"body":"doctrinal scrums over Christian beliefs. But these"},{"startTime":208.014,"endTime":211.19,"body":"days, I'd rather hear about an embodied"},{"startTime":211.27,"endTime":215.11,"body":"faith, a story that must be imagined to"},{"startTime":215.15,"endTime":218.992,"body":"be believed. So there's those words,"},{"startTime":219.056,"endTime":222.72,"body":"and we're going to unpack that. What it is in that,"},{"startTime":222.76,"endTime":226.432,"body":"that I think is so important, so compelling, what drew me to it,"},{"startTime":226.536,"endTime":229.952,"body":"what really feels like prophetic truth to"},{"startTime":229.976,"endTime":233.76,"body":"me for the current generation. And so much of what I wrote about"},{"startTime":233.8,"endTime":237.34,"body":"in Sacred Attachment has these ideas. So"},{"startTime":237.64,"endTime":241.456,"body":"let's jump in. Yeah, absolutely. I couldn't agree more. Michael,"},{"startTime":241.488,"endTime":244.0,"body":"I want to thank you for putting that at the beginning of the book. I"},{"startTime":244.04,"endTime":247.662,"body":"really do think it sets the tone for every topic. You"},{"startTime":247.686,"endTime":250.81,"body":"dive in and it's just. It's a great quote. I love it."},{"startTime":251.51,"endTime":255.022,"body":"Right off the bat, why did you. What. What pulled you"},{"startTime":255.046,"endTime":258.782,"body":"towards putting that quote in the book? Well, first I"},{"startTime":258.806,"endTime":262.334,"body":"said, I don't mean to be reductionistic, but there is a part of me that."},{"startTime":262.422,"endTime":266.142,"body":"That thinks at the 30, 000 foot level and thinks really big."},{"startTime":266.326,"endTime":269.998,"body":"So when I hear there's two kinds of Christians, I don't think that it's"},{"startTime":270.014,"endTime":273.612,"body":"about narrowing, but that it's about expanding, you know, so it's a"},{"startTime":273.636,"endTime":276.972,"body":"continuum. On one end of the continuum, there's"},{"startTime":277.036,"endTime":280.22,"body":"storytellers, and on the other end of the continuum there's list"},{"startTime":280.26,"endTime":283.996,"body":"makers, just as we talk about, you know, there's a continuum"},{"startTime":284.028,"endTime":287.772,"body":"of political belief. And on one end of the continuum is the far right, and"},{"startTime":287.796,"endTime":291.372,"body":"on the other end there's the far left, and in between there's an infinite"},{"startTime":291.436,"endTime":295.18,"body":"number of political beliefs because they're individualized. So I'll just start by"},{"startTime":295.22,"endTime":299.052,"body":"saying that, right, that there's probably people that are a combination of list makers and"},{"startTime":299.076,"endTime":302.872,"body":"storytellers and true confession. I'm probably in"},{"startTime":302.896,"endTime":306.648,"body":"that category much of the time. In other words, I've got my list"},{"startTime":306.704,"endTime":310.152,"body":"of, here's what it means to have the right faith in"},{"startTime":310.176,"endTime":313.8,"body":"Jesus, even though part of my approach is that there"},{"startTime":313.84,"endTime":317.672,"body":"is no right faith in Jesus, that Jesus is the way, the truth and the"},{"startTime":317.696,"endTime":321.1,"body":"life, and that he embodies all of what's in scripture."},{"startTime":321.44,"endTime":324.536,"body":"And that yes, we need to stay within certain"},{"startTime":324.608,"endTime":328.264,"body":"guardrails from the beginning of the story in Genesis"},{"startTime":328.312,"endTime":331.222,"body":"to the end of the story. And yet"},{"startTime":331.406,"endTime":334.678,"body":"Jesus, I have discovered, often"},{"startTime":334.814,"endTime":338.582,"body":"removes the guardrails. He expands the"},{"startTime":338.606,"endTime":342.214,"body":"guardrails. Sometimes he's riding"},{"startTime":342.262,"endTime":346.102,"body":"with us between those guardrails and then he says, let's get out of the"},{"startTime":346.126,"endTime":349.542,"body":"way, there's a train coming. And he lifts us up over the"},{"startTime":349.566,"endTime":353.126,"body":"guardrails and then other times he brings us back into the guardrails."},{"startTime":353.238,"endTime":356.806,"body":"And let me just give a quick analogy. When I was"},{"startTime":356.958,"endTime":360.278,"body":"nine years old, my family moved from Cleveland, Ohio to Fort"},{"startTime":360.294,"endTime":363.97,"body":"Lauderdale, Florida. Why? Because my older brother, six years"},{"startTime":364.01,"endTime":367.666,"body":"older than me, needed drug and alcohol treatment"},{"startTime":367.778,"endTime":371.282,"body":"at the age of 15. And this was 1973."},{"startTime":371.386,"endTime":374.77,"body":"And treatment programs barely existed for people that were"},{"startTime":374.81,"endTime":378.402,"body":"adults inpatient and they were non existent for kids, for"},{"startTime":378.426,"endTime":382.162,"body":"teenagers. So my family found this program, we moved across the country and the"},{"startTime":382.186,"endTime":385.346,"body":"whole family had to be involved. And we were probably"},{"startTime":385.458,"endTime":389.006,"body":"lower middle class. And a friend of a friend"},{"startTime":389.178,"endTime":392.982,"body":"gave us some passes, some one day passes to Disney World, which"},{"startTime":393.006,"endTime":396.63,"body":"had just opened one year earlier. So this was kind of a big deal, right?"},{"startTime":396.67,"endTime":400.39,"body":"The Disneyland in Anaheim had come, you know, to the, to the west"},{"startTime":400.43,"endTime":404.102,"body":"coast. So we went to Disneyland. And my strongest memory of that day is"},{"startTime":404.126,"endTime":407.718,"body":"riding the antique cars. And I was just convinced"},{"startTime":407.894,"endTime":411.67,"body":"that, that I was going to actually drive a car all by myself and"},{"startTime":411.71,"endTime":414.742,"body":"that this was a real thing. But I get in the car and there was"},{"startTime":414.766,"endTime":418.45,"body":"a governor on the pedal. So it went like three miles an hour, you know,"},{"startTime":418.49,"endTime":421.954,"body":"pedal to the metal. But then there was this metal"},{"startTime":422.002,"endTime":425.762,"body":"rail in the middle. And so it wasn't a guardrail on the"},{"startTime":425.786,"endTime":429.474,"body":"left and the right that kept you in, it was a guardrail"},{"startTime":429.522,"endTime":432.962,"body":"in the middle that allowed you to navigate back and forth."},{"startTime":433.106,"endTime":436.866,"body":"But ultimately that middle rail was straight"},{"startTime":436.978,"endTime":440.31,"body":"down the middle. It was aligned"},{"startTime":440.65,"endTime":444.21,"body":"with the road. And what needed to happen to keep a nine year old"},{"startTime":444.25,"endTime":447.99,"body":"boy from, you know, driving into the grass and into the lake next"},{"startTime":448.03,"endTime":451.302,"body":"to the log ride. Or something like that end up in Splash"},{"startTime":451.366,"endTime":455.094,"body":"Mountain. Yeah. And so I think that the rails"},{"startTime":455.142,"endTime":458.982,"body":"that I'm speaking of which are, you know, metaphors for boundaries that God has"},{"startTime":459.006,"endTime":462.854,"body":"put in place, that those are not so much left and"},{"startTime":462.942,"endTime":466.742,"body":"right as they are in the center, that it"},{"startTime":466.766,"endTime":470.566,"body":"doesn't keep me from wandering to the left and the right too far. It actually"},{"startTime":470.638,"endTime":473.83,"body":"Allows me to go to the left and the right. But what's in the"},{"startTime":473.87,"endTime":477.646,"body":"center is actually what keeps me coming back"},{"startTime":477.798,"endTime":481.486,"body":"to that place where I'm guided and where I can't go too"},{"startTime":481.558,"endTime":484.718,"body":"far. And so this"},{"startTime":484.774,"endTime":488.238,"body":"idea of list makers and storytellers, it really"},{"startTime":488.294,"endTime":491.918,"body":"clarified for me my experience of"},{"startTime":492.054,"endTime":495.598,"body":"probably the first 14 to 20 years of"},{"startTime":495.654,"endTime":499.31,"body":"my faith and of my spiritual journey. I"},{"startTime":499.35,"endTime":502.952,"body":"was a list maker. I've talked about a number of"},{"startTime":502.976,"endTime":506.584,"body":"times on this podcast that I was beautifully discipled"},{"startTime":506.712,"endTime":510.472,"body":"by really good men. And I believe that"},{"startTime":510.496,"endTime":514.2,"body":"when we're young and when we're coming into faith, that we"},{"startTime":514.24,"endTime":517.42,"body":"need real clarity and real understanding,"},{"startTime":517.84,"endTime":521.432,"body":"a place to hang our hat. That's very clear. And that doctrine"},{"startTime":521.496,"endTime":525.272,"body":"is important. But what happened to me is that the"},{"startTime":525.296,"endTime":528.638,"body":"doctrine became the point and the doing the right"},{"startTime":528.694,"endTime":532.382,"body":"things became the point. And I lost the plot."},{"startTime":532.446,"endTime":536.126,"body":"I lost the story. And for me, the plot and the story"},{"startTime":536.198,"endTime":539.95,"body":"became, as Rodney Reeves suggests in this quote, it"},{"startTime":539.99,"endTime":543.838,"body":"became doing the right things and believing the right things. And the problem"},{"startTime":543.894,"endTime":547.71,"body":"with that is that kind of life didn't really require"},{"startTime":547.79,"endTime":551.63,"body":"faith. It didn't require me to have to trust God on"},{"startTime":551.67,"endTime":555.4,"body":"a daily basis, except maybe give me a little more strength"},{"startTime":555.48,"endTime":559.08,"body":"to stop doing the things that bring me shame or give me a little more"},{"startTime":559.12,"endTime":562.46,"body":"strength to help obey you. But it didn't require trust."},{"startTime":563.92,"endTime":567.416,"body":"In Matthew 15. I was reading this this morning. It's"},{"startTime":567.448,"endTime":570.872,"body":"this very convicting passage"},{"startTime":570.936,"endTime":574.728,"body":"where the Pharisees are trying to trick Jesus into, you know, why don't"},{"startTime":574.744,"endTime":578.536,"body":"your disciples go through the ceremonial rituals"},{"startTime":578.568,"endTime":582.328,"body":"and wash their hands? Jesus starts talking about how it's what's"},{"startTime":582.344,"endTime":586.008,"body":"on the inside, not the outside. And then in verse eight and nine, he"},{"startTime":586.064,"endTime":589.78,"body":"says, these people, and he's referring to"},{"startTime":590.96,"endTime":594.44,"body":"the legalists, the people that are all about being self"},{"startTime":594.52,"endTime":598.36,"body":"righteous because they're doing the right things. These people honor me"},{"startTime":598.4,"endTime":602.2,"body":"with their lips, but their hearts are far from me and"},{"startTime":602.24,"endTime":604.54,"body":"their worship is in vain."},{"startTime":605.45,"endTime":609.17,"body":"And I know I'm a little bit off the main point, but"},{"startTime":609.21,"endTime":612.978,"body":"that's so important because what God wants is for people"},{"startTime":613.034,"endTime":616.738,"body":"to engage in a story of their heart and how their"},{"startTime":616.794,"endTime":620.242,"body":"heart encounters the heart of God that is"},{"startTime":620.266,"endTime":623.506,"body":"revealed in Jesus, the God Revealer. And"},{"startTime":623.578,"endTime":627.154,"body":"so I believe that this quote, inviting"},{"startTime":627.202,"endTime":630.594,"body":"people to be storytellers and not list makers,"},{"startTime":630.722,"endTime":634.486,"body":"is really an invitation into our own hearts,"},{"startTime":634.598,"endTime":637.13,"body":"where we find both glory and ruin,"},{"startTime":638.03,"endTime":641.734,"body":"dignity and distress, where we find, as"},{"startTime":641.822,"endTime":645.318,"body":"one of my old professors, Dr. Tom Varney, used to say, that"},{"startTime":645.454,"endTime":649.062,"body":"within us there is a masterpiece and a"},{"startTime":649.086,"endTime":652.486,"body":"mess. You know, all of that duality"},{"startTime":652.598,"endTime":656.406,"body":"inside of us. And that's the invitation. Because that's where story"},{"startTime":656.478,"endTime":660.182,"body":"takes place. That's actually where a really good story takes place. As"},{"startTime":660.206,"endTime":663.722,"body":"opposed to here's this wonderful epic novel. Page"},{"startTime":663.786,"endTime":667.466,"body":"one. Jack and Jill ran"},{"startTime":667.498,"endTime":670.15,"body":"up a hill to fetch a pail of water."},{"startTime":671.17,"endTime":674.794,"body":"Jack took the pail of water back down and he filled up the"},{"startTime":674.802,"endTime":678.474,"body":"horse troughs and the horse drank and Jill rode the"},{"startTime":678.482,"endTime":682.202,"body":"horse and it was a sunny day. The end. As"},{"startTime":682.226,"endTime":685.578,"body":"opposed to Jack and Jill. You're not going to believe"},{"startTime":685.634,"endTime":689.212,"body":"this. They went up this hill and they had this"},{"startTime":689.236,"endTime":692.412,"body":"pale of water. We don't know if the pale water, if the"},{"startTime":692.436,"endTime":695.98,"body":"pale had a hole in it or if it was rusty."},{"startTime":696.06,"endTime":699.772,"body":"And Jack cut himself on the edge where it was really sharp."},{"startTime":699.916,"endTime":703.212,"body":"And it was probably a long time ago that Jack and Jill ran up this"},{"startTime":703.236,"endTime":706.492,"body":"hill. But that's beside the point. But here, listen to this. He cut himself. And"},{"startTime":706.516,"endTime":710.172,"body":"Jill said, when was your last tetanus shot? And he said, what's a tetanus shot?"},{"startTime":710.236,"endTime":713.632,"body":"And she explained to him what was going to happen in the future. Suddenly, Jim,"},{"startTime":713.646,"endTime":717.26,"body":"Jack's face turned red. He got 104.5 fever. He"},{"startTime":717.3,"endTime":720.924,"body":"fell down. Jill dragged him by his toes"},{"startTime":721.052,"endTime":723.772,"body":"down to the bottom of the hill. They put him on a covered wagon. They"},{"startTime":723.796,"endTime":726.68,"body":"took him to Doc Olson who gave him"},{"startTime":727.38,"endTime":731.02,"body":"a mustard pack and miraculously he was"},{"startTime":731.06,"endTime":734.556,"body":"healed. And then Jack decided to be a doctor"},{"startTime":734.748,"endTime":738.3,"body":"and sail on a ship to the far Lands so that he could care for"},{"startTime":738.34,"endTime":742.068,"body":"people in know, Southeast Asia that didn't have medical care. Now I'm"},{"startTime":742.084,"endTime":745.524,"body":"being facetious, right? And I'm improvising, but that's a great"},{"startTime":745.612,"endTime":749.172,"body":"story. Yeah, I'd watch a movie about that."},{"startTime":749.276,"endTime":752.28,"body":"But it's not a great story about. Here's the facts,"},{"startTime":752.78,"endTime":756.532,"body":"here's the boxes that Jack and Jill checked as they went up the"},{"startTime":756.556,"endTime":760.18,"body":"hill. It's not compelling and there's really no point to it because"},{"startTime":760.22,"endTime":763.892,"body":"there's no humanity in it. So I think that when Dr. Reeves"},{"startTime":763.956,"endTime":767.668,"body":"is talking about list makers versus storytellers, list makers,"},{"startTime":767.764,"endTime":771.06,"body":"we can't really bring our humanity list. We can't bring our"},{"startTime":771.1,"endTime":774.948,"body":"brokenness. We can't bring our hunger and thirst and our deep longing"},{"startTime":774.964,"endTime":778.612,"body":"and yearning. We've just got to perform. We've just got to do it"},{"startTime":778.636,"endTime":782.372,"body":"right. We've just got to get God to pat us on the back. Yeah."},{"startTime":782.436,"endTime":786.02,"body":"Storytellers, on the other hand, it's a"},{"startTime":786.06,"endTime":788.36,"body":"wild, woolly journey."},{"startTime":789.98,"endTime":793.716,"body":"Yeah, absolutely. While we're talking about, let's dive deep in these differences"},{"startTime":793.828,"endTime":797.532,"body":"between the list makers and the storytellers. And like you Said"},{"startTime":797.556,"endTime":800.2,"body":"you fall into the middle. What does that look like for you?"},{"startTime":800.98,"endTime":804.492,"body":"Well, I think I live in the storytelling side of"},{"startTime":804.516,"endTime":807.852,"body":"this as it's unpacked, as he talks about having an"},{"startTime":807.876,"endTime":810.972,"body":"embodied faith that can only be imagined to be believed."},{"startTime":811.116,"endTime":814.732,"body":"But my nervous system, my neurology, the"},{"startTime":814.756,"endTime":818.524,"body":"neural pathways, my sin nature, my ego, my false self,"},{"startTime":818.652,"endTime":822.268,"body":"whatever you want to call it, can fall back into that. That"},{"startTime":822.324,"endTime":826.12,"body":"place of, you know, I have this routine that I do every morning with"},{"startTime":826.16,"endTime":829.704,"body":"God. I read this liturgy that you and I talked about and shared part of"},{"startTime":829.712,"endTime":833.416,"body":"the prayer a few episodes back. And as long as I do that every morning,"},{"startTime":833.568,"endTime":837.352,"body":"you know, I can feel good about my spiritual life. But"},{"startTime":837.376,"endTime":840.792,"body":"if I miss a morning or miss a day, let's say that, you know, my"},{"startTime":840.816,"endTime":844.44,"body":"daughter had a performance at"},{"startTime":844.48,"endTime":848.12,"body":"school and we went out for pancakes afterwards and we stayed up"},{"startTime":848.16,"endTime":851.032,"body":"late and I didn't get up the next morning, and I had to just get"},{"startTime":851.056,"endTime":854.64,"body":"up, take a shower and go somewhere. There's a part of me still,"},{"startTime":855.02,"endTime":858.08,"body":"and it's less"},{"startTime":858.78,"endTime":861.96,"body":"binding than it used to be, but there's a part of me that goes,"},{"startTime":862.7,"endTime":866.26,"body":"yeah, my spirituality. I got a B"},{"startTime":866.3,"endTime":870.1,"body":"plus today instead of an A plus, maybe an A"},{"startTime":870.14,"endTime":873.812,"body":"minus if I said a prayer along the way or something like that. But"},{"startTime":873.996,"endTime":877.732,"body":"there's this part of me that says, here's the boxes I have to check on"},{"startTime":877.756,"endTime":881.336,"body":"the list that will make me okay. That's"},{"startTime":881.368,"endTime":884.888,"body":"fundamentally what a list maker is. Okay,"},{"startTime":885.064,"endTime":888.76,"body":"so then with list makers, and I feel like there"},{"startTime":888.8,"endTime":892.552,"body":"might be some people listening who genuinely thrive off lists. I'm not"},{"startTime":892.576,"endTime":895.768,"body":"one of them, but I know of people who thrive off"},{"startTime":895.824,"endTime":899.576,"body":"lists. Is there a way where you can"},{"startTime":899.648,"endTime":903.272,"body":"be a form of list maker and still thrive in this"},{"startTime":903.376,"endTime":907.0,"body":"Christian relationship with Jesus? Or is there have to be"},{"startTime":907.04,"endTime":910.24,"body":"some balance between list making and storytelling?"},{"startTime":910.74,"endTime":913.564,"body":"Well, yeah, I'm glad you asked that, because first of all, I want to clarify"},{"startTime":913.612,"endTime":917.244,"body":"for our listeners that we're not talking about literal lists. If you have a,"},{"startTime":917.332,"endTime":920.988,"body":"you know, a planning system, a to do list, an app where you make lists"},{"startTime":921.004,"endTime":924.412,"body":"of things, even spiritual practices or spiritual"},{"startTime":924.476,"endTime":927.884,"body":"disciplines, there's nothing wrong with that if that serves"},{"startTime":927.932,"endTime":931.74,"body":"you. But the question is, is it serving you or are"},{"startTime":931.78,"endTime":935.452,"body":"you serving it? David Benner, the"},{"startTime":935.476,"endTime":938.986,"body":"great spiritual writer, said that"},{"startTime":939.058,"endTime":942.522,"body":"discipline is a wonderful servant, but a"},{"startTime":942.546,"endTime":945.786,"body":"terrible master. So if"},{"startTime":945.858,"endTime":949.594,"body":"discipline becomes the end point, I'm being disciplined so"},{"startTime":949.602,"endTime":953.03,"body":"that discipline will get me to where I want to be,"},{"startTime":953.41,"endTime":957.178,"body":"that I'll be in bondage to that, as opposed to that"},{"startTime":957.234,"endTime":961.018,"body":"eventually something comes along on the inside where I go,"},{"startTime":961.074,"endTime":964.58,"body":"I want to do this. So Recently, I started back with"},{"startTime":964.62,"endTime":968.34,"body":"a physical therapist, a doctor of physical therapy, who is also"},{"startTime":968.38,"endTime":971.88,"body":"a certified personal trainer. I'm recovering from a back injury,"},{"startTime":972.3,"endTime":975.828,"body":"and I was really looking forward to this first"},{"startTime":975.884,"endTime":979.444,"body":"session and it really went well. And he and I connected on multiple"},{"startTime":979.492,"endTime":983.332,"body":"levels. And I thought, I can't wait to come back. But"},{"startTime":983.356,"endTime":987.156,"body":"there was a not too distant past in my life when"},{"startTime":987.228,"endTime":991.05,"body":"I signed up for a health club, paying that monthly fee, and month"},{"startTime":991.09,"endTime":994.73,"body":"after month went by and those credit card charges went ding,"},{"startTime":994.81,"endTime":998.55,"body":"ding, ding. And I never went to the health club. Right. Why?"},{"startTime":998.93,"endTime":1002.49,"body":"Because going to the health club is like, you know, eating your least"},{"startTime":1002.53,"endTime":1006.234,"body":"favorite vegetable. Let's just say that it's cauliflower. And it's like the"},{"startTime":1006.242,"endTime":1009.226,"body":"doctor told me, it's good for me, I should have more fiber. You know, it"},{"startTime":1009.298,"endTime":1012.11,"body":"has great vitamins, but I don't like cauliflower."},{"startTime":1012.69,"endTime":1016.362,"body":"And that's how, you know, going to the gym and the trainer used to be"},{"startTime":1016.386,"endTime":1020.078,"body":"to me. And so something shifted for a lot of different reasons that we don't"},{"startTime":1020.094,"endTime":1023.79,"body":"have time to go into here from the discipline of making myself"},{"startTime":1023.87,"endTime":1027.15,"body":"do something because I don't like it, and"},{"startTime":1027.27,"endTime":1030.51,"body":"finding a joy and a motivation and an"},{"startTime":1030.55,"endTime":1034.286,"body":"aliveness around doing that. And it's a whole"},{"startTime":1034.318,"endTime":1037.87,"body":"different experience. One is pressure and performing,"},{"startTime":1037.95,"endTime":1041.742,"body":"and then the other side, it's a flowing and it's a being, and I"},{"startTime":1041.766,"endTime":1045.528,"body":"get to show up. Now, probably the most helpful thing that we've talked about before"},{"startTime":1045.584,"endTime":1049.256,"body":"on the podcast, about your question, you know, between list making and"},{"startTime":1049.328,"endTime":1052.712,"body":"storytelling and, you know, what does God do and what do we do is what"},{"startTime":1052.736,"endTime":1056.28,"body":"Dallas Willard said, that grace is not opposed to"},{"startTime":1056.32,"endTime":1059.1,"body":"effort, it's opposed to earning."},{"startTime":1060.16,"endTime":1063.544,"body":"So we can put forth effort. We can at times"},{"startTime":1063.632,"endTime":1067.352,"body":"flex our muscles. I don't want to get out of bed today. I went to"},{"startTime":1067.376,"endTime":1070.68,"body":"bed late. I didn't sleep well. I feel like a cold is coming"},{"startTime":1070.72,"endTime":1074.16,"body":"on. And because of grace, maybe we stay in"},{"startTime":1074.2,"endTime":1077.984,"body":"bed and if we don't get up early and, you know, do our practice"},{"startTime":1078.032,"endTime":1081.392,"body":"or whatever that is then or later in the day, that God's not wringing his"},{"startTime":1081.416,"endTime":1085.04,"body":"hands and God's not disappointed. And there's times where I"},{"startTime":1085.08,"endTime":1088.848,"body":"say, because I know that this is life giving, because this is actually"},{"startTime":1088.904,"endTime":1092.16,"body":"something that when I sit down and begin to pray through my"},{"startTime":1092.2,"endTime":1096.048,"body":"liturgy, I'm going to start to feel joy because it happens every time, and I'm"},{"startTime":1096.064,"endTime":1099.776,"body":"going to start to relax and I'm starting to prepare myself for the day."},{"startTime":1099.848,"endTime":1103.336,"body":"So the effort that I put in the flexing is worth"},{"startTime":1103.368,"endTime":1107.16,"body":"it, but it's not Earning. It's not"},{"startTime":1107.2,"endTime":1110.82,"body":"me saying, God, you will love me or like me or"},{"startTime":1111.52,"endTime":1115.208,"body":"give me affection or affirmation or even security based on what I'm"},{"startTime":1115.224,"endTime":1118.76,"body":"doing here. Because then that becomes precarious. If I"},{"startTime":1118.8,"endTime":1122.568,"body":"stop doing it, then the love, the affection, the security is not there."},{"startTime":1122.624,"endTime":1126.424,"body":"And that's why so many people are living with this spiritual"},{"startTime":1126.472,"endTime":1130.17,"body":"exhaustion, spiritual anxiety, and what"},{"startTime":1130.21,"endTime":1133.87,"body":"we call in mental health, an insecure attachment."},{"startTime":1135.01,"endTime":1138.842,"body":"Wow. Yeah. That's a great, great example of that. I'm"},{"startTime":1138.906,"endTime":1142.602,"body":"still wrapping my brain around it. Thank you. Kind"},{"startTime":1142.626,"endTime":1146.426,"body":"of going back 30,000ft on this epigraph."},{"startTime":1146.618,"endTime":1150.186,"body":"There's a statement in there that says, what does it take to be a Christian?"},{"startTime":1150.298,"endTime":1154.02,"body":"What intrigues you about that? I think the"},{"startTime":1154.06,"endTime":1157.348,"body":"thing that intrigues me about that is that he gave an"},{"startTime":1157.404,"endTime":1160.74,"body":"answer that was compelling to me, but it"},{"startTime":1160.78,"endTime":1164.5,"body":"wasn't the four spiritual laws or the Roman"},{"startTime":1164.58,"endTime":1168.32,"body":"road or an invitation to accept Christ into your heart"},{"startTime":1168.86,"endTime":1172.58,"body":"for many, many, many people. And maybe in the"},{"startTime":1172.7,"endTime":1175.8,"body":"conservative Christian evangelical Bible, believing"},{"startTime":1176.62,"endTime":1180.228,"body":"community and worldview, maybe that's what most people"},{"startTime":1180.284,"endTime":1183.986,"body":"do. But what he was talking"},{"startTime":1184.018,"endTime":1186.83,"body":"about, and I'm going to pull up the exact phrase here,"},{"startTime":1191.61,"endTime":1195.33,"body":"is that he calls out the"},{"startTime":1195.37,"endTime":1198.75,"body":"idea without actually saying it, that"},{"startTime":1199.53,"endTime":1203.33,"body":"it's not trying to obey certain commandments"},{"startTime":1203.49,"endTime":1207.11,"body":"and it's not agreeing with certain doctrines"},{"startTime":1207.51,"endTime":1210.59,"body":"that makes you a Christian. He turns to his"},{"startTime":1210.63,"endTime":1214.11,"body":"grandmother and that basically says, it's about a"},{"startTime":1214.15,"endTime":1217.95,"body":"relationship. It's about my relationship with my"},{"startTime":1217.99,"endTime":1221.39,"body":"grandmother. It's about her relationship with God."},{"startTime":1221.55,"endTime":1225.182,"body":"That makes me lean in and let's do another improv"},{"startTime":1225.246,"endTime":1229.07,"body":"thing. Grandma didn't say to Rodney Reeves, oh, Rodney, those"},{"startTime":1229.11,"endTime":1232.942,"body":"ten commandments, here's how I've obeyed them all. And"},{"startTime":1232.966,"endTime":1236.572,"body":"I think that God is pleased with me. But. But, you know, most people that"},{"startTime":1236.596,"endTime":1240.268,"body":"I talk to, when they think of their grandmother, warm memories come up."},{"startTime":1240.404,"endTime":1243.692,"body":"You know, so often when we're doing trauma work and we invite people to think"},{"startTime":1243.716,"endTime":1247.02,"body":"of a safe place or a place of peace. Oh, my"},{"startTime":1247.06,"endTime":1250.892,"body":"grandparents, or maybe it was another relative,"},{"startTime":1250.956,"endTime":1254.764,"body":"but a place where our heart could just rest. And so,"},{"startTime":1254.852,"endTime":1257.96,"body":"you know, I just want to be very, very clear"},{"startTime":1259.06,"endTime":1262.284,"body":"with so much controversy around this, what it takes to be a"},{"startTime":1262.292,"endTime":1265.84,"body":"Christian is to say, I want to follow Jesus."},{"startTime":1266.42,"endTime":1270.156,"body":"And there's a New York Times writer by the name of Bill Kristol,"},{"startTime":1270.268,"endTime":1274.108,"body":"and I've written him a letter that I never mailed. He wrote a book called"},{"startTime":1274.164,"endTime":1277.804,"body":"Half the Sky, which was a book about the"},{"startTime":1277.812,"endTime":1281.468,"body":"oppression of women. He is"},{"startTime":1281.524,"endTime":1285.324,"body":"definitely a progressive on the left. And every year at Easter, this is probably"},{"startTime":1285.372,"endTime":1288.482,"body":"coming up in a couple weeks, he writes A column in the New York Times,"},{"startTime":1288.636,"endTime":1292.054,"body":"and he's one of the most celebrated columnists. And he has"},{"startTime":1292.142,"endTime":1295.958,"body":"asked Tim Keller to respond to his article."},{"startTime":1296.014,"endTime":1299.718,"body":"He's asked Philip Yancey to respond to his article, I believe Russell Moore,"},{"startTime":1299.814,"endTime":1303.334,"body":"you know, all these famous and"},{"startTime":1303.422,"endTime":1307.27,"body":"eminent evangelical thinkers and writers. And one year"},{"startTime":1307.31,"endTime":1310.902,"body":"he said, I love the teachings of Jesus and all that he stands for, but"},{"startTime":1310.926,"endTime":1314.536,"body":"I can't believe in the resurrection. Can I be a Christian"},{"startTime":1314.638,"endTime":1318.356,"body":"and not believe in the resurrection? And so I started to write him a letter"},{"startTime":1318.388,"endTime":1321.492,"body":"as if I was one of these people, just because I love this man's heart"},{"startTime":1321.516,"endTime":1325.012,"body":"and I love what he does in the world. So much"},{"startTime":1325.036,"endTime":1328.74,"body":"curiosity and. And I'm not going to get into the topic of whether we"},{"startTime":1328.78,"endTime":1332.084,"body":"can be a Christian without believing in the resurrection. But here's the thing about what"},{"startTime":1332.092,"endTime":1335.892,"body":"it means to be a Christian. I'm not believing in an idea like I"},{"startTime":1335.916,"endTime":1339.412,"body":"believe in John F. Kennedy, but I've never met"},{"startTime":1339.436,"endTime":1342.654,"body":"him. I was a 1960s history"},{"startTime":1342.742,"endTime":1346.366,"body":"minor as an undergrad, and I read a lot about"},{"startTime":1346.438,"endTime":1350.27,"body":"the Kennedys, Robert F. Kennedy Sr. Or number one,"},{"startTime":1350.31,"endTime":1353.886,"body":"John F. Kennedy, but I never met either of them,"},{"startTime":1354.038,"endTime":1356.942,"body":"so I never had that encounter. And so to be a Christian is to have"},{"startTime":1356.966,"endTime":1360.542,"body":"an encounter with Jesus and say, I want this. I want to"},{"startTime":1360.566,"endTime":1363.998,"body":"follow him. And to the resurrection question. We"},{"startTime":1364.054,"endTime":1366.77,"body":"believe in a living God,"},{"startTime":1367.6,"endTime":1371.32,"body":"so we don't believe in a historical idea. We don't believe"},{"startTime":1371.36,"endTime":1375.208,"body":"in a piece of stone that is in a temple somewhere. We believe"},{"startTime":1375.264,"endTime":1379.032,"body":"in a living, breathing being, the second member of"},{"startTime":1379.056,"endTime":1382.456,"body":"the Trinity that has a body and will for eternity"},{"startTime":1382.648,"endTime":1386.472,"body":"that requires the resurrection. Otherwise, I'm believing in the"},{"startTime":1386.496,"endTime":1389.02,"body":"teachings of a dead guy"},{"startTime":1389.76,"endTime":1391.94,"body":"from 33 A.D."},{"startTime":1393.69,"endTime":1397.41,"body":"Yeah. Interesting. Wow. Yeah, that makes"},{"startTime":1397.45,"endTime":1401.27,"body":"sense. You're probably going, how did we get onto this topic?"},{"startTime":1402.73,"endTime":1406.322,"body":"I mean, it's so good because the idea"},{"startTime":1406.386,"endTime":1409.99,"body":"is that it's active, it's curious, it's"},{"startTime":1410.73,"endTime":1412.83,"body":"relational, it's personal,"},{"startTime":1414.33,"endTime":1418.13,"body":"it's extremely engaging, similar to your story, not just"},{"startTime":1418.17,"endTime":1421.67,"body":"in a how to engage with others, but engaging with God."},{"startTime":1422.01,"endTime":1425.77,"body":"And so, I mean, yeah, we're all over the place, but it"},{"startTime":1425.81,"endTime":1429.242,"body":"just all paints this beautiful picture of how active and how"},{"startTime":1429.346,"endTime":1432.79,"body":"vibrant a Christian walk can be."},{"startTime":1434.21,"endTime":1437.962,"body":"Later down, it says, like talking about doctoral scrums,"},{"startTime":1438.026,"endTime":1441.69,"body":"just in this idea of list making and do you know all the good"},{"startTime":1441.73,"endTime":1445.29,"body":"things? How do you relate relishing in, quote,"},{"startTime":1445.37,"endTime":1449.002,"body":"doctoral scrums over Christian beliefs? Yeah. You"},{"startTime":1449.026,"endTime":1452.762,"body":"know, not just the culture wars, but the doctrine wars and the theological"},{"startTime":1452.826,"endTime":1456.342,"body":"wars. Calvinists versus Armenians. There are many of"},{"startTime":1456.366,"endTime":1460.21,"body":"them. Yeah. And different interpretations of scripture. And"},{"startTime":1460.59,"endTime":1464.39,"body":"you Know, I. I worked with a man many years ago who is still very"},{"startTime":1464.43,"endTime":1468.166,"body":"dear to me. And when I think of him, my heart just smiles."},{"startTime":1468.278,"endTime":1471.798,"body":"And he grew up in a conservative Mennonite"},{"startTime":1471.894,"endTime":1475.654,"body":"tradition. And he told me once about a church split"},{"startTime":1475.782,"endTime":1479.51,"body":"that happened because members were passionately arguing"},{"startTime":1479.67,"endTime":1483.32,"body":"about what color car you could drive. And in that"},{"startTime":1483.36,"endTime":1486.76,"body":"community, if you had something that was red or"},{"startTime":1486.8,"endTime":1489.992,"body":"yellow or certainly lime green, that was considered"},{"startTime":1490.056,"endTime":1493.624,"body":"pride and it was considered haughty. And so"},{"startTime":1493.712,"endTime":1497.46,"body":"you could be removed from the fellowship because of that."},{"startTime":1497.92,"endTime":1501.688,"body":"So, you know, those seem to be about defending"},{"startTime":1501.784,"endTime":1505.304,"body":"positions for the sake of preserving tradition"},{"startTime":1505.432,"endTime":1509.27,"body":"and community and those kinds of things. But let me just"},{"startTime":1509.31,"endTime":1513.062,"body":"say that for me, engaging in theological"},{"startTime":1513.126,"endTime":1516.902,"body":"arguments and doctrinal scrums as a young Christian, and I'm going to"},{"startTime":1516.926,"endTime":1520.39,"body":"say from about 16 to 26 years"},{"startTime":1520.43,"endTime":1524.198,"body":"old, I did it because I believed that the most"},{"startTime":1524.254,"endTime":1527.75,"body":"important thing was to be right. To be"},{"startTime":1527.79,"endTime":1531.11,"body":"right. And if I was right, then that would"},{"startTime":1531.15,"endTime":1534.976,"body":"validate me and at least in the eyes of the other person,"},{"startTime":1535.048,"endTime":1538.512,"body":"not necessarily with God. But I know there was something that I was thinking in"},{"startTime":1538.536,"endTime":1542.288,"body":"my relationship with God, that if I was right and if I could convince other"},{"startTime":1542.344,"endTime":1546.112,"body":"people to be right, that God would be happy with that. Because, of"},{"startTime":1546.136,"endTime":1549.872,"body":"course, we've got to defend the truth and God wants the truth. And the"},{"startTime":1549.896,"endTime":1553.52,"body":"arrogance was that my position is right. You know, I had some"},{"startTime":1553.56,"endTime":1557.36,"body":"theology and seminary under my wing. So, you know, now I've got this."},{"startTime":1557.48,"endTime":1560.842,"body":"You know, the problem is that there are people with multiple"},{"startTime":1560.906,"endTime":1564.426,"body":"PhDs, and I know a man and I'm going to butcher his name."},{"startTime":1564.498,"endTime":1568.17,"body":"Thomas Schlehrmacher, who"},{"startTime":1568.21,"endTime":1571.11,"body":"up until recently was the president of"},{"startTime":1571.73,"endTime":1575.45,"body":"the World Evangelistic association, the"},{"startTime":1575.49,"endTime":1579.21,"body":"wea. And my friend knows him and"},{"startTime":1579.25,"endTime":1582.89,"body":"was mentored by him for a while. And"},{"startTime":1583.01,"endTime":1585.55,"body":"Thomas had five PhDs,"},{"startTime":1586.59,"endTime":1589.65,"body":"five PhDs. Now,"},{"startTime":1590.19,"endTime":1593.622,"body":"I'm just assuming he's a great guy and he loves God, but I could earn"},{"startTime":1593.686,"endTime":1597.334,"body":"five PhDs, one in Hebrew, one in Greek,"},{"startTime":1597.382,"endTime":1600.246,"body":"one in New Testament, one in Old Testament, one in"},{"startTime":1600.398,"endTime":1604.182,"body":"whatever. And I still don't have the"},{"startTime":1604.206,"endTime":1607.57,"body":"authority to say this is the right way,"},{"startTime":1608.27,"endTime":1611.33,"body":"this interpretation is the right way. Why?"},{"startTime":1611.88,"endTime":1615.056,"body":"Because for almost 2100"},{"startTime":1615.128,"endTime":1618.88,"body":"years, we have seen traditions"},{"startTime":1618.96,"endTime":1622.512,"body":"that have come and go. And this is why to Rodney Reeves,"},{"startTime":1622.576,"endTime":1625.648,"body":"great point. Our focus has to be on"},{"startTime":1625.704,"endTime":1628.848,"body":"Jesus and anything and"},{"startTime":1628.904,"endTime":1632.4,"body":"anyone. That is a peripheral issue. From"},{"startTime":1632.44,"endTime":1635.936,"body":"that at the top of the list, we're distracting"},{"startTime":1635.968,"endTime":1639.582,"body":"ourselves and we open ourselves up to. To the potential"},{"startTime":1639.646,"endTime":1643.486,"body":"of making an idol out of whatever is on that list below"},{"startTime":1643.558,"endTime":1647.262,"body":"Jesus. I think at times I've made an idol out of the"},{"startTime":1647.286,"endTime":1650.718,"body":"Bible. And I think there's Christian traditions"},{"startTime":1650.814,"endTime":1654.382,"body":"today that have made an idol out of the Bible and that they worship the"},{"startTime":1654.406,"endTime":1657.49,"body":"Bible more than they actually worship Jesus."},{"startTime":1657.91,"endTime":1661.29,"body":"Because it's terrifying to entrust a person."},{"startTime":1661.67,"endTime":1665.35,"body":"It's a lot less terrifying and gives us a lot of certainty. If"},{"startTime":1665.39,"endTime":1668.662,"body":"we trust a book that we believe, we have the right"},{"startTime":1668.766,"endTime":1672.598,"body":"perspective, the right interpretation on. And therefore our"},{"startTime":1672.654,"endTime":1676.358,"body":"requirements and our creeds are the ones that need to be followed"},{"startTime":1676.374,"endTime":1679.25,"body":"and obeyed. And we need to get other people to see those."},{"startTime":1680.11,"endTime":1683.83,"body":"So often what passes for the Christian life does"},{"startTime":1683.87,"endTime":1687.542,"body":"not require faith and trust. And so we always need to be"},{"startTime":1687.566,"endTime":1691.382,"body":"evaluating that, you know, okay, so I asked Jesus, who's my Savior into my"},{"startTime":1691.406,"endTime":1695.25,"body":"heart, and now I have eternal life. But the question is, what"},{"startTime":1695.29,"endTime":1698.93,"body":"do I need Jesus for today? What do I need Jesus for"},{"startTime":1698.97,"endTime":1702.642,"body":"tomorrow? As I've got kids that are moving into their future, what do I need"},{"startTime":1702.666,"endTime":1706.146,"body":"Jesus for? With a dad who wants to"},{"startTime":1706.218,"endTime":1709.922,"body":"control the outcomes of their life and direct them towards certain careers that might"},{"startTime":1709.946,"endTime":1713.634,"body":"not bring them joy or even be their calling, what do I need Jesus for?"},{"startTime":1713.802,"endTime":1717.25,"body":"To help me to see his wisdom, to help me to relinquish, to"},{"startTime":1717.29,"endTime":1721.072,"body":"surrender. And the answer shouldn't be, well, I"},{"startTime":1721.096,"endTime":1724.8,"body":"need him so that I'm trusting in him for eternal life. Because"},{"startTime":1724.92,"endTime":1727.18,"body":"eternal life is now."},{"startTime":1728.04,"endTime":1731.792,"body":"Eternal life is now. When we pray, our Father who art"},{"startTime":1731.816,"endTime":1735.36,"body":"in heaven, Thy kingdom come and thy will be done, we're saying,"},{"startTime":1735.48,"endTime":1738.928,"body":"bring heaven here. Let heaven happen here, in"},{"startTime":1738.984,"endTime":1742.832,"body":"me, in my marriage, in my family, and going out"},{"startTime":1742.856,"endTime":1746.162,"body":"in rippling concentric circles so that the kingdom"},{"startTime":1746.226,"endTime":1750.018,"body":"comes now. Because God's plan"},{"startTime":1750.074,"endTime":1753.73,"body":"in Revelation 21 is to bring heaven to earth, not"},{"startTime":1753.77,"endTime":1757.506,"body":"to destroy the earth, not to take us up and out"},{"startTime":1757.578,"endTime":1760.914,"body":"from this bad place, but to make all things"},{"startTime":1761.002,"endTime":1764.706,"body":"new. And in large part doing that as he brings"},{"startTime":1764.738,"endTime":1768.194,"body":"heaven to earth. That's awesome. Yeah."},{"startTime":1768.322,"endTime":1771.908,"body":"So then bringing it back towards the question with the"},{"startTime":1771.964,"endTime":1775.684,"body":"doctrinal scrum. So what I'm hearing is that it's mostly"},{"startTime":1775.732,"endTime":1779.572,"body":"based on intent because you can be curious and have asked questions"},{"startTime":1779.636,"endTime":1783.38,"body":"and doc about, you know, theology and whatnot, but"},{"startTime":1783.42,"endTime":1786.996,"body":"if it's to serve your pride rather than to serve your faith,"},{"startTime":1787.188,"endTime":1790.852,"body":"maybe that's more of a self reflection. Is that what I'm picking up? Yeah."},{"startTime":1790.916,"endTime":1794.708,"body":"Yeah. And that pride may not necessarily be like, oh, this person"},{"startTime":1794.764,"endTime":1798.164,"body":"is arrogant or haughty or conceited, but a sense of I'm"},{"startTime":1798.212,"endTime":1801.344,"body":"right. Occasionally I will"},{"startTime":1801.432,"endTime":1805.264,"body":"unfortunately go on YouTube and sometimes scrolling"},{"startTime":1805.312,"endTime":1809.088,"body":"through Instagram, and I will see certain speakers"},{"startTime":1809.184,"endTime":1812.672,"body":"that are inspirational speakers, or if they're a particular political"},{"startTime":1812.776,"endTime":1816.624,"body":"persuasion where they'll be speaking somewhere. And they're"},{"startTime":1816.672,"endTime":1820.24,"body":"very passionate about their point about here's how the world operates and"},{"startTime":1820.28,"endTime":1823.38,"body":"here's the right approach. And you know what's sad?"},{"startTime":1823.8,"endTime":1827.21,"body":"They're angry, they're shrill,"},{"startTime":1828.27,"endTime":1831.878,"body":"they're not humble. In. You've"},{"startTime":1831.894,"endTime":1835.382,"body":"probably seen these on social media where someone is giving a speech and then they"},{"startTime":1835.406,"endTime":1838.902,"body":"let people walk up to the microphone and there might be a"},{"startTime":1838.926,"endTime":1842.774,"body":"little text box across the bottom"},{"startTime":1842.822,"endTime":1846.294,"body":"that says, you know, this person had them for lunch. This."},{"startTime":1846.382,"endTime":1849.974,"body":"This speaker destroyed this lib, or this conservative."},{"startTime":1850.102,"endTime":1853.83,"body":"And I'm like, how dare we, in the name of"},{"startTime":1853.87,"endTime":1857.174,"body":"Jesus, destroy someone because they have a differing"},{"startTime":1857.222,"endTime":1860.87,"body":"belief? I don't see that in the"},{"startTime":1860.91,"endTime":1864.374,"body":"Gospels and in the heart of God as Jesus is the God"},{"startTime":1864.422,"endTime":1868.07,"body":"Revealer. I want to read a quote, and this may be"},{"startTime":1868.11,"endTime":1871.814,"body":"challenging to some. I almost put this quote in Sacred"},{"startTime":1871.862,"endTime":1875.366,"body":"Attachment. It's from one of my favorite novelists, Toni"},{"startTime":1875.398,"endTime":1879.04,"body":"Morrison. Who? The late great African American"},{"startTime":1879.16,"endTime":1882.944,"body":"novelist and essayist. She won a Nobel"},{"startTime":1882.992,"endTime":1886.752,"body":"Prize. Not even just a Pulitzer Prize, a Nobel Prize. And"},{"startTime":1886.776,"endTime":1890.56,"body":"in her book, the Bluest Eyes, this is a novel, she"},{"startTime":1890.6,"endTime":1894.16,"body":"said, our world feasts at the table of God, the"},{"startTime":1894.2,"endTime":1897.168,"body":"judge, and is left starved and"},{"startTime":1897.224,"endTime":1901.072,"body":"malnourished. This table has been set"},{"startTime":1901.096,"endTime":1904.726,"body":"up in exclusive buildings and agreed upon creeds"},{"startTime":1904.758,"endTime":1908.422,"body":"and membership. But ours is a"},{"startTime":1908.446,"endTime":1912.006,"body":"time to feast at the table of God as redeemer,"},{"startTime":1912.198,"endTime":1915.77,"body":"God as healer, God as mother,"},{"startTime":1916.27,"endTime":1918.37,"body":"the church as a hospital."},{"startTime":1919.87,"endTime":1923.69,"body":"I'll just let that sink in for a minute. Yeah."},{"startTime":1924.51,"endTime":1928.31,"body":"And then there's people that heard that quote. And some might"},{"startTime":1928.35,"endTime":1930.582,"body":"be saying, oh, I'm going to pull off to the side of the road or"},{"startTime":1930.606,"endTime":1934.252,"body":"hit pause and write that down. And others are going, oh, what a"},{"startTime":1934.276,"endTime":1937.548,"body":"heretic, because he said, God as"},{"startTime":1937.604,"endTime":1941.324,"body":"mother, God as mother. Can't. God is not a mother."},{"startTime":1941.372,"endTime":1944.972,"body":"You know God, the Bible says father. Well, first of all, let me. Let me"},{"startTime":1944.996,"endTime":1948.7,"body":"say that several weeks back on the podcast I had on Dr. Andrew Bauman and"},{"startTime":1948.74,"endTime":1952.46,"body":"talking about his book Safe Church, and we discussed how he posted"},{"startTime":1952.54,"endTime":1955.948,"body":"online on Instagram, I think how"},{"startTime":1956.004,"endTime":1959.81,"body":"God is not a man. And he said"},{"startTime":1959.85,"endTime":1963.458,"body":"he got thousands of responses, and so many of them were filled with"},{"startTime":1963.514,"endTime":1967.266,"body":"vitriol and hatred and judgment. And so when people"},{"startTime":1967.338,"endTime":1970.77,"body":"hear God as mother, I'm not saying that God is a"},{"startTime":1970.81,"endTime":1974.61,"body":"woman, because I don't believe that God is a man"},{"startTime":1974.65,"endTime":1978.13,"body":"or a woman. Culturally speaking, the reason"},{"startTime":1978.17,"endTime":1981.778,"body":"why the word father was used is because to say"},{"startTime":1981.834,"endTime":1985.458,"body":"mother, that would have been unthinkable because women"},{"startTime":1985.514,"endTime":1989.07,"body":"were already oppressed. And the other thing is that"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":1989.11,"endTime":1992.942,"body":"1 and here's where people that might be offended by"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":1992.966,"endTime":1996.35,"body":"this idea of the phrase God as mother, they're the very"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":1996.39,"endTime":2000.142,"body":"people that lock in to what it means in Genesis when"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2000.166,"endTime":2003.742,"body":"it says that God made them in his image, male and"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2003.766,"endTime":2007.518,"body":"female, they have a precise understanding and interpretation of what that"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2007.574,"endTime":2011.038,"body":"means. So they would definitely say male and female in order to"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2011.094,"endTime":2014.936,"body":"fulfill his image. But those same people would"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2015.008,"endTime":2018.54,"body":"say, I'm uncomfortable with the idea of God as mother."},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2018.88,"endTime":2022.392,"body":"So I'm not saying that God is a man or a"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2022.416,"endTime":2025.8,"body":"woman. What I am saying is that the image of God,"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2025.96,"endTime":2029.72,"body":"who He is, what he's actually like when"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2029.76,"endTime":2033.58,"body":"we look at him, has characteristics of maleness"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2034.0,"endTime":2036.86,"body":"and characteristics of femaleness."},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2038.25,"endTime":2041.59,"body":"And God as mother is this compelling"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2042.17,"endTime":2045.298,"body":"image of fierce strength"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2045.474,"endTime":2048.93,"body":"and tenderness. It's the"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2048.97,"endTime":2052.754,"body":"image of one who can carry and bear"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2052.882,"endTime":2056.018,"body":"life with great suffering, great"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2056.074,"endTime":2059.55,"body":"capacity for long suffering on behalf of others,"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2059.93,"endTime":2063.57,"body":"in the instance of carrying a baby for nine months, long suffering"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2063.65,"endTime":2066.916,"body":"on behalf of that child that is growing and"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2066.988,"endTime":2070.16,"body":"developing, and that what our"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2070.54,"endTime":2074.228,"body":"world is hungry for, and particularly here in the west, and"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2074.284,"endTime":2077.924,"body":"especially in America, I believe that the."},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2078.092,"endTime":2081.812,"body":"The men and women in this country, whether they know it or can"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2081.836,"endTime":2085.54,"body":"admit it, are hungry for the tenderness of God, the"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2085.58,"endTime":2089.252,"body":"mercy of God. And"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2089.356,"endTime":2093.054,"body":"that quote just speaks to me that when Rodney"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2093.102,"endTime":2096.702,"body":"Reeves is talking about, you know, the doctrinal scrums"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2096.766,"endTime":2100.43,"body":"over theology and right belief, that"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2100.47,"endTime":2104.238,"body":"is completely missing the point. One of my."},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2104.294,"endTime":2107.982,"body":"One of my dear friends who's a pastor, I have great respect for him, Denver"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2108.046,"endTime":2111.854,"body":"Seminary graduate, Master of Divinity. I'm not sure if he"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2111.942,"endTime":2115.45,"body":"has yet finished his doctoral degree, but he was working on it for a while."},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2115.83,"endTime":2119.17,"body":"And when we get into this idea of right belief,"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2119.88,"endTime":2123.38,"body":"doctrinal scrums, arguments about theology,"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2123.88,"endTime":2127.488,"body":"we sometimes turn to the topic of apologetics, right? So studying"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2127.584,"endTime":2131.392,"body":"what the right thing is so that we can help people to understand"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2131.496,"endTime":2134.832,"body":"the truth and then therefore, to convert. The problem is,"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2135.016,"endTime":2137.86,"body":"my friend said that. That apologetics"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2138.2,"endTime":2141.632,"body":"is learning how to brilliantly answer"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2141.696,"endTime":2144.02,"body":"questions that nobody's asking."},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2146.52,"endTime":2150.33,"body":"So I will give you the answer in a brilliant way, in a. In"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2150.37,"endTime":2154.17,"body":"a wonderfully packaged way, in a way that I believe is"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2154.21,"endTime":2157.946,"body":"true, and I will defend it with all of my energy. I'm going to answer"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2157.978,"endTime":2161.578,"body":"a question that you're not asking and the question"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2161.634,"endTime":2165.402,"body":"that's being asked, not verbally, per se, although in my"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2165.426,"endTime":2169.258,"body":"circles of therapy and counseling and restoration and spiritual direction, boy, oh,"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2169.274,"endTime":2171.47,"body":"boy, are people asking these questions."},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2172.93,"endTime":2176.732,"body":"I can't live any longer in this world where I'm feasting at"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2176.756,"endTime":2180.412,"body":"this table, where God is the judge and Where I'm left starved and"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2180.436,"endTime":2184.124,"body":"malnourished. The question people are asking is, my heart is hungry. Where can I"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2184.132,"endTime":2187.98,"body":"find food? My soul is thirsty. Where can I find drink?"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2188.14,"endTime":2191.4,"body":"Yeah, that living water. That's the question."},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2192.9,"endTime":2196.46,"body":"And there are some people that I know that came to faith through"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2196.5,"endTime":2200.06,"body":"apologetics and through reading C.S. lewis and"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2200.1,"endTime":2203.834,"body":"commentaries. But eventually, even there,"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2203.922,"endTime":2207.642,"body":"the hunger of their heart and the thirst of their heart for"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2207.666,"endTime":2211.27,"body":"the tender care of the church, which is a hospital"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2211.57,"endTime":2214.842,"body":"for God's restoration and the fact that he's the"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2214.866,"endTime":2218.122,"body":"Redeemer. If the heart doesn't experience"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2218.226,"endTime":2222.058,"body":"that, then at best we'll have right"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2222.114,"endTime":2225.834,"body":"beliefs, faithful church attendance, maybe"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2225.882,"endTime":2229.684,"body":"excellent behavior. Who does that describe? It describes"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2229.732,"endTime":2233.012,"body":"the Legalists and the Pharisees in the"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2233.036,"endTime":2236.66,"body":"conversations that Jesus had. And we come right back to you."},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2236.7,"endTime":2239.96,"body":"Honor me with your lips, your beliefs,"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2240.38,"endTime":2244.052,"body":"your behaviors, but your heart is far from me and"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2244.076,"endTime":2245.96,"body":"your worship is in vain."},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2247.26,"endTime":2250.868,"body":"Yeah, kind of tying along with that, at the end of it, it talks about"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2250.924,"endTime":2254.468,"body":"an embodied faith. Can you breathe into that and like what that looks"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2254.484,"endTime":2258.26,"body":"like? Yeah. The last line of Rodney Reeves quote here, he"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2258.3,"endTime":2262.02,"body":"said, these days I'd rather hear it about an embodied faith, one"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2262.06,"endTime":2265.844,"body":"that needs to be imagined to be believed. This was the clincher on"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2265.852,"endTime":2268.228,"body":"why I said, I'm going to put this in the book. I have a chapter"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2268.324,"endTime":2271.988,"body":"in Sacred Attachment on embodiment, and I have a chapter on"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2272.044,"endTime":2275.668,"body":"imagination. So if. If we are not"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2275.724,"endTime":2279.396,"body":"taking what we know about God, God is love, God"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2279.428,"endTime":2283.022,"body":"is kind, God is compassionate, slow to anger and"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2283.046,"endTime":2286.894,"body":"bounding in love. He forgives"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2286.942,"endTime":2290.702,"body":"our sins and heals all of our diseases and crowns us with love"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2290.726,"endTime":2294.542,"body":"and compassion. If we're not embodying that somehow,"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2294.606,"endTime":2298.366,"body":"where we're feeling that, where we're integrating that into"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2298.438,"endTime":2301.742,"body":"our physical being, then things will remain"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2301.806,"endTime":2305.406,"body":"intellectual. And really what I'm talking about, if we're not having a right"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2305.478,"endTime":2309.152,"body":"brain experience of our faith, it will"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2309.176,"endTime":2312.848,"body":"remain belief. As we go from left brain to right"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2312.904,"endTime":2316.752,"body":"brain, it becomes spirituality, it becomes belief that"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2316.776,"endTime":2319.968,"body":"is internalized. And we start to develop a rich,"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2320.064,"endTime":2323.632,"body":"robust, deep interior life out of"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2323.656,"endTime":2327.2,"body":"which good things flow. And that's the"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2327.24,"endTime":2330.848,"body":"soil where the fruit grows. And"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2330.904,"endTime":2334.698,"body":"so embodiment is so important. And I'm"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2334.714,"endTime":2337.626,"body":"going to give an example of how embodiment and"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2337.698,"endTime":2341.29,"body":"imagination come together. When people hear the word"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2341.33,"endTime":2345.162,"body":"imagination, sometimes they get a little nervous around that they're saying,"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2345.186,"endTime":2348.506,"body":"oh, you're going to just visualize whatever you want to believe. And I've even heard"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2348.538,"endTime":2352.026,"body":"people say that if you close your eyes and try to visualize something"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2352.098,"endTime":2355.802,"body":"spiritually, that demons can come in. And first of"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2355.826,"endTime":2359.546,"body":"all, we are hidden in Christ. And I don't think that there's"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2359.578,"endTime":2363.25,"body":"any support for the fact that demons can come in."},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2363.29,"endTime":2366.79,"body":"When I'm praying and closing my eyes, visualizing Jesus,"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2367.13,"endTime":2370.962,"body":"demons have access either through our turning away from the"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2370.986,"endTime":2374.722,"body":"love of God, I. E. Sinning, or someone else sinning against us"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2374.746,"endTime":2378.53,"body":"and causing us harm. It's always in places of darkness and pain where"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2378.57,"endTime":2382.082,"body":"evil has access. So how do"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2382.186,"endTime":2385.39,"body":"embodiment and imagination come together?"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2385.78,"endTime":2389.212,"body":"So yesterday morning, in my prayer time, this"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2389.316,"endTime":2392.796,"body":"liturgy that I read, I get to Psalm 23,"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2392.948,"endTime":2396.492,"body":"and I probably read a number of psalms and a number of prayers, and that"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2396.516,"endTime":2400.284,"body":"takes about 10 minutes. And there's probably five minutes left in this exercise. I get"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2400.292,"endTime":2404.012,"body":"to Psalm 23 and I pray the psalm out loud. And as"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2404.036,"endTime":2407.82,"body":"I pray it, I interact with the psalm. So, for"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2407.86,"endTime":2411.612,"body":"example, here's what happened yesterday. Sometimes my eyes are"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2411.636,"endTime":2415.288,"body":"closed, sometimes not. But the Lord is my shepherd, I"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2415.344,"endTime":2418.904,"body":"shall not be in want. The Lord is my shepherd. I lack"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2419.032,"endTime":2422.76,"body":"nothing. Oh, Jesus, how I want that"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2422.8,"endTime":2426.568,"body":"I say, and how it feels like right now I lack"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2426.664,"endTime":2430.408,"body":"so much. There's that ten thousand dollar"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2430.504,"endTime":2433.54,"body":"Omega watch that I fantasize about."},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2434.24,"endTime":2438.008,"body":"And Lord, I know I don't need that, but if I had that,"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2438.144,"endTime":2441.378,"body":"oh gosh, I'd feel so satisfied. Or,"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2441.544,"endTime":2445.294,"body":"okay, I don't need that watch, Lord. My car's three years old"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2445.462,"endTime":2449.102,"body":"and the advanced video screen in my car,"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2449.206,"endTime":2452.894,"body":"I actually have to take three seconds and plug it, plug in the"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2452.982,"endTime":2456.798,"body":"cord to my phone. And I'm really hoping"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2456.894,"endTime":2460.702,"body":"that for convenience and ease, but more than anything, this would just make"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2460.726,"endTime":2463.87,"body":"my life great. This would give me joy and peace. I think I should trade"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2463.91,"endTime":2467.742,"body":"in my car and get a high car payment, because, you know, right now that"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2467.766,"endTime":2471.39,"body":"wouldn't really affect me. This is all my prayer life, right? This is happening in"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2471.43,"endTime":2474.65,"body":"prayer. This is what's called conversation, conversational intimacy. And I"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2474.69,"endTime":2478.506,"body":"say, so I. This, this one car I've had my eye on, I'm gonna,"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2478.538,"endTime":2482.362,"body":"I'm gonna trade that in. And he doesn't say, yes, No, I"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2482.386,"endTime":2485.91,"body":"just go, oh, I, I know that's my false self, okay. No,"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2486.53,"endTime":2490.362,"body":"Lord's my shepherd. I shall not be in want. I lack"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2490.426,"endTime":2493.578,"body":"nothing. And I hear, come"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2493.634,"endTime":2496.67,"body":"closer. And I exhale."},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2497.97,"endTime":2501.732,"body":"And then I, I see Jesus. And I, I now see a green"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2501.796,"endTime":2505.556,"body":"pasture. And as I hiked through Scotland and England a year ago,"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2505.628,"endTime":2509.012,"body":"I've got images of green pastures and sheep and shepherds everywhere,"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2509.076,"endTime":2512.612,"body":"literally. And I see this one green pasture and I see"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2512.636,"endTime":2516.452,"body":"Jesus off in it, and he Says, come closer. Now, I do"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2516.476,"endTime":2519.94,"body":"this kind of thing through the whole psalm, and I was completely unprepared for this"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2519.98,"endTime":2523.748,"body":"because every time it's different. In this conversational intimacy, I get"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2523.804,"endTime":2527.092,"body":"through the valley of the shadow of death, and I kind of skip through the"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2527.116,"endTime":2530.922,"body":"next line. It says, he prepares a table before me in"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2530.946,"endTime":2534.554,"body":"the presence of my enemies. So I'm visualizing"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2534.602,"endTime":2537.962,"body":"that. And the reason why I'm both"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2538.066,"endTime":2541.47,"body":"modeling this prayer time of conversational intimacy"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2542.93,"endTime":2546.202,"body":"and why I'm also kind of opening my eyes and doing a teachable moment, two"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2546.226,"endTime":2549.786,"body":"different things at once is because this example is about"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2549.858,"endTime":2553.306,"body":"embodiment and imagination. So as I'm doing this, I'm"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2553.338,"endTime":2557.114,"body":"breathing, I'm feeling it, I'm seeing in the eyes"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2557.162,"endTime":2560.746,"body":"of my heart and in my mind's eye this table"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2560.858,"endTime":2564.35,"body":"prepared before me. And I'm suddenly sitting at this table,"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2566.05,"endTime":2569.674,"body":"and I hear this still, quiet"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2569.722,"endTime":2573.05,"body":"voice that says, what would you like me to serve you at this"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2573.09,"endTime":2576.23,"body":"table? And I just tear up."},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2577.25,"endTime":2580.66,"body":"And then I hear this voice that says, that's okay, I"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2580.7,"endTime":2583.908,"body":"know. And my memory goes to my first"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2583.964,"endTime":2587.476,"body":"anniversary, where. I'm sorry, it was my first"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2587.548,"endTime":2591.236,"body":"birthday, which was near my first anniversary when I was newly married. I'm married"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2591.268,"endTime":2595.092,"body":"34 years this June. Julianne said, what do you want me to make you"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2595.116,"endTime":2598.884,"body":"for your birthday? I'd love to make you a meal, no hesitation. Homemade"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2598.932,"endTime":2602.68,"body":"macaroni and cheese, a BLT"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2603.18,"endTime":2606.73,"body":"on toasted white bread, and I'd like"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2607.27,"endTime":2611.118,"body":"just a really, really ice cold Classic Coke,"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2611.214,"endTime":2613.65,"body":"because I don't drink alcohol. I'm sober,"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2614.47,"endTime":2618.062,"body":"and I'm watching this table that God has"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2618.086,"endTime":2621.758,"body":"prepared before me in the presence of my enemies. He says, that's okay."},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2621.854,"endTime":2625.41,"body":"I know just what you want. And he sets down a blt,"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2625.83,"endTime":2629.662,"body":"toasted, a big icy Classic Coke, and"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2629.686,"endTime":2633.38,"body":"homemade macaroni and cheese. And then I just start giggling"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2633.8,"endTime":2637.616,"body":"like I'm now laughing with joy. And Jesus"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2637.648,"endTime":2641.472,"body":"and I are having this bantering, playful moment as I'm praying through Psalm"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2641.536,"endTime":2644.896,"body":"23. There might be people who"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2644.968,"endTime":2648.544,"body":"say, this is awfully convenient. You know, you're projecting"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2648.592,"endTime":2651.952,"body":"your desires onto God and you're making him like an"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2651.976,"endTime":2655.792,"body":"Aladdin's lamp, where you have three wishes and you just used all three of your"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2655.816,"endTime":2659.14,"body":"wishes on the Classic Coke, the macaroni and cheese, and the blt. And the blt,"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2659.2,"endTime":2663.036,"body":"yeah. What does it mean? Therefore, when I pray through at the beginning"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2663.068,"endTime":2666.396,"body":"of this time, Psalm 103, I'll say it again. I said it a moment"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2666.428,"endTime":2669.692,"body":"ago. Praise the Lord, O my soul, all my"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2669.796,"endTime":2673.64,"body":"inmost being, praise his Holy name, Praise the Lord, my soul, who"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2673.94,"endTime":2677.436,"body":"forget not all his benefits, forgives your sins,"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2677.548,"endTime":2681.356,"body":"heals your diseases. He redeems your life from the pit. He crowns"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2681.388,"endTime":2684.268,"body":"you with love and compassion. He satisfies your"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2684.324,"endTime":2687.678,"body":"desires so that your youth is"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2687.734,"endTime":2691.582,"body":"renewed like the eagles. And my desire in"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2691.606,"endTime":2694.83,"body":"that moment wasn't for macaroni and cheese and a blt. My"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2694.87,"endTime":2698.638,"body":"desire was God. I'm sitting here and I don't"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2698.654,"endTime":2701.57,"body":"know if I can trust you, that I lack nothing."},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2702.31,"endTime":2705.422,"body":"I don't know if I can trust you, that you're my good shepherd and I"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2705.446,"endTime":2709.15,"body":"shall not be want. Because there's a whole bunch of stuff I want. I"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2709.19,"endTime":2712.664,"body":"want my kids to turn out a certain way. I want a raise."},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2712.792,"endTime":2716.632,"body":"I want my health to be okay. I want my back pain to go away."},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2716.736,"endTime":2720.472,"body":"I want to remodel my kitchen. I want that new car, I want"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2720.496,"endTime":2724.22,"body":"the watch, et cetera. And I'm not at peace. I'm restless."},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2724.8,"endTime":2727.992,"body":"And I need to know that you know me and that you see me. And"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2728.016,"endTime":2731.448,"body":"guess what? A BLT and homemade"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2731.464,"endTime":2734.776,"body":"macaroni and cheese shows up. That's not a doctrine."},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2734.888,"endTime":2738.738,"body":"That's something that shows how intimately God knows me"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2738.794,"endTime":2742.338,"body":"and how intimately he's relating to me and how that"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2742.394,"endTime":2745.362,"body":"promise of Scripture which Christians and Jews and probably"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2745.426,"endTime":2748.962,"body":"unbelievers have have. You know, a lot of people have memorized that"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2748.986,"endTime":2751.99,"body":"prayer for centuries and centuries."},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2752.97,"endTime":2756.69,"body":"Those words of, you prepare a table before me in the presence of my"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2756.73,"endTime":2760.498,"body":"enemies suddenly became embodied and in"},{"speaker":"Genesis 1","startTime":2760.554,"endTime":2764.372,"body":"my imagination, which is nothing more then the eyes of"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":2764.396,"endTime":2767.44,"body":"18."},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":2767.9,"endTime":2771.7,"body":"There I encountered the gospel that God is"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":2771.74,"endTime":2775.124,"body":"nourishing and feeding me. Now, let me. Let me just say one more thing. AJ"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":2775.172,"endTime":2779.012,"body":"that's absolutely stunning. Please. It's easy for me to"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":2779.036,"endTime":2782.836,"body":"focus on the first part of that verse. You prepare a table before"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":2782.908,"endTime":2786.5,"body":"me. Okay, Wonderful. Jesus gave me the"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":2786.54,"endTime":2790.228,"body":"classic Coke, the homemade macaroni and cheese, and the blt. But the second"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":2790.284,"endTime":2793.558,"body":"part of that, in the presence of my enemies,"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":2793.734,"endTime":2796.646,"body":"huge implication in parentheses."},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":2796.838,"endTime":2799.97,"body":"Michael, you are to feed them."},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":2800.83,"endTime":2804.17,"body":"You are to welcome them to the table."},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":2805.23,"endTime":2808.85,"body":"You are invited to have them sit down."},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":2809.47,"endTime":2812.486,"body":"And even though there has been harm caused, there's"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":2812.518,"endTime":2816.262,"body":"disagreement, there's distance. I'm a"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":2816.286,"endTime":2820.12,"body":"God who draws all things together. And how I"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":2820.16,"endTime":2823.736,"body":"do that is not by giving you a command or a creed"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":2823.848,"endTime":2827.192,"body":"or denomination that says, these are our enemies and these are our"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":2827.216,"endTime":2830.84,"body":"allies. But I know you so intimately, and I"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":2830.88,"endTime":2834.552,"body":"reveal that intimacy to you. And I bring"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":2834.656,"endTime":2838.232,"body":"the things that you delight in so that your youth is renewed. Like the"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":2838.256,"endTime":2841.8,"body":"eagles. So now your heart is expanding in trust and"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":2841.84,"endTime":2845.56,"body":"attachment and you're trusting that. Yes, you are. And you"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":2845.6,"endTime":2849.432,"body":"will be seen and soothed and safe. And you"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":2849.456,"endTime":2853.224,"body":"exhale and there's a security. And security is, I've got nothing"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":2853.272,"endTime":2857.08,"body":"to lose. There's no harm coming against me. All is"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":2857.12,"endTime":2860.92,"body":"well with my soul, because backing up, even though I walk through"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":2860.96,"endTime":2864.6,"body":"the valley of the shadow of death, where my enemies are shooting arrows and"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":2864.64,"endTime":2868.472,"body":"throwing rocks and calling me names, blessed are"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":2868.496,"endTime":2872.28,"body":"those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":2872.32,"endTime":2875.964,"body":"kingdom of heaven. Why blessed? Because that's what God"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":2876.012,"endTime":2879.804,"body":"looks like. He loves his enemies. God"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":2879.932,"endTime":2883.724,"body":"in one sense has no enemies. The God that is revealed"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":2883.772,"endTime":2887.548,"body":"in Jesus. So as we sit at the table and as we're"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":2887.564,"endTime":2891.116,"body":"nourished and as we are known, and as we"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":2891.188,"endTime":2894.188,"body":"literally feast, the next verse is, my cup"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":2894.244,"endTime":2897.932,"body":"overflows. Who does it overflow to? The people that I,"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":2898.036,"endTime":2901.822,"body":"yesterday or five minutes ago, or maybe even still in the moment,"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":2901.886,"endTime":2905.63,"body":"consider my enemies. But now it's not a me and"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":2905.67,"endTime":2908.09,"body":"them, it's an us."},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":2909.27,"endTime":2913.038,"body":"And that's where the love of Christ shows up. That's where"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":2913.094,"endTime":2916.25,"body":"the light of Christ shows up. That is."},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":2917.51,"endTime":2921.01,"body":"That is the essence of evangelism."},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":2921.51,"endTime":2925.182,"body":"And I'll end with this. I wrote this this morning. Every"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":2925.206,"endTime":2928.89,"body":"morning I'm writing, I try to write 250 to 500"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":2929.27,"endTime":2932.686,"body":"words, which is, you know, two to four pages. Some days I barely write"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":2932.718,"endTime":2936.494,"body":"anything. This morning it was really flowing. And I thought of the"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":2936.502,"endTime":2940.174,"body":"movie When Harry Met Sally, probably 30 years ago now. And there's a famous"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":2940.222,"endTime":2943.774,"body":"scene for those of us that are older and remember this, where Meg"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":2943.822,"endTime":2947.582,"body":"Ryan, who is Sally, and Billy Crystal, who is Harry, they"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":2947.606,"endTime":2951.438,"body":"go out to lunch and the whole plot of the movie is they're really good"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":2951.494,"endTime":2954.948,"body":"friends, they're besties, and they don't know if they can"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":2955.004,"endTime":2958.756,"body":"actually, like, be friends as man and woman, boy"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":2958.788,"endTime":2961.956,"body":"and girl, and not have it become romantic and"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":2962.028,"endTime":2965.56,"body":"sexualized. So they meet up at this restaurant"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":2966.14,"endTime":2969.892,"body":"after not seeing each other for a while, and they're talking back and forth. And"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":2969.916,"endTime":2973.0,"body":"the famous scene is that Meg Ryan, Sally,"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":2973.34,"endTime":2976.452,"body":"fakes an orgasm in the middle of this busy"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":2976.516,"endTime":2980.084,"body":"cafeteria. And they're talking somehow about sexual"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":2980.132,"endTime":2983.96,"body":"intimacy. And she begins to moan quietly. And it"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":2984.0,"endTime":2987.752,"body":"rises and it rises and. And the table starts to shake and"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":2987.776,"endTime":2990.648,"body":"she's going, oh, oh, oh. And the entire"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":2990.744,"endTime":2994.568,"body":"restaurant quiets down and everyone's staring at her. And Billy"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":2994.584,"endTime":2998.06,"body":"Crystal playing Harry is just horrified at what's happening."},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":2998.56,"endTime":3002.296,"body":"And this older woman across just the aisle"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":3002.328,"endTime":3006.024,"body":"of the table turns and looks at the waitress"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":3006.072,"endTime":3009.602,"body":"who's there to take her order, and she says, I'll have what"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":3009.626,"endTime":3010.59,"body":"she's having."},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":3014.73,"endTime":3018.498,"body":"And like, in other words, whoa, here's this"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":3018.554,"endTime":3022.098,"body":"ecstasy, this freedom, this"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":3022.234,"endTime":3026.034,"body":"not caring what other people think, this aliveness. I'll"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":3026.082,"endTime":3029.842,"body":"have what she's having. And I think that when we begin"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":3029.906,"endTime":3033.682,"body":"to live in this way where our faith is not hanging on"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":3033.706,"endTime":3037.51,"body":"the hooks of belief, and I believe in belief and I believe in"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":3037.55,"endTime":3041.398,"body":"doctrines and I pray the creeds on a regular basis, but"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":3041.454,"endTime":3044.73,"body":"when we don't have an embodied faith"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":3046.11,"endTime":3048.01,"body":"with a joined imagination,"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":3050.03,"endTime":3053.782,"body":"no one will say, I'll have what he's having. They could"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":3053.806,"endTime":3057.414,"body":"go believe in any particular worldview that's a set of"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":3057.422,"endTime":3061.102,"body":"beliefs. They could join the Kiwanis or the"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":3061.126,"endTime":3064.51,"body":"jcs or whatever their local fraternal organization"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":3064.59,"endTime":3068.366,"body":"is. But when we live in this place where"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":3068.438,"endTime":3071.87,"body":"embodied spirituality in Jesus and imagination"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":3072.03,"endTime":3075.822,"body":"comes together, we have an aliveness and"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":3075.846,"endTime":3079.55,"body":"a freedom and a restfulness that is compelling. And"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":3079.67,"endTime":3083.39,"body":"not only non believers, but other believers will come along"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":3083.43,"endTime":3087.006,"body":"and say, I want what he's having. I want what"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":3087.078,"endTime":3090.6,"body":"she's having, because I don't have that. My heart is still"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":3090.64,"endTime":3094.36,"body":"hungry and thirsty and there's still this gap between what I"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":3094.4,"endTime":3097.944,"body":"believe and what I experience. And maybe, just maybe,"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":3097.992,"endTime":3101.832,"body":"I've been mostly a list maker in my life, that"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":3101.856,"endTime":3105.528,"body":"if I do and believe what's on the list, then God will somehow like"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":3105.584,"endTime":3109.416,"body":"me, bless me, change me. And I'm"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":3109.448,"endTime":3113.016,"body":"not yet aware of his story in my life and how he's"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":3113.048,"endTime":3116.716,"body":"working and how it actually looks when he says in Hebrews"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":3116.748,"endTime":3120.428,"body":"chapter 12 that he's the author of my story and"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":3120.484,"endTime":3123.2,"body":"he's the author of my faith."},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":3125.22,"endTime":3128.972,"body":"Invitations. Clear. Come to the table. It is. It"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":3128.996,"endTime":3132.444,"body":"is. Come to the table. So let's sign off and I want to start a"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":3132.452,"endTime":3136.252,"body":"little tradition. Let's do it. Every podcast, this is"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":3136.356,"endTime":3139.132,"body":"the very first time we'll start this. And from now on, we won't explain it."},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":3139.156,"endTime":3142.54,"body":"I'll just say, thank you, everybody, for listening. Love has"},{"speaker":"the heart which Paul refers to in Ephesians 1","startTime":3142.58,"endTime":3144.1,"body":"you. Talk to you next time."}]}