{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.4,"endTime":3.704,"body":"Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Restoring the Soul podcast. It is"},{"startTime":3.792,"endTime":7.512,"body":"Michael. And today we are going to talk about another amazing"},{"startTime":7.576,"endTime":11.368,"body":"book. One of my favorite things on this podcast is to be able"},{"startTime":11.424,"endTime":14.936,"body":"to present to you the listeners, not just"},{"startTime":15.008,"endTime":18.68,"body":"people that I highly respect, care about, and"},{"startTime":18.72,"endTime":22.232,"body":"esteem as colleagues and or friends, but also the"},{"startTime":22.256,"endTime":26.104,"body":"material that comes out of their lives. So Today we have Dr. Chuck DeGroat"},{"startTime":26.152,"endTime":29.898,"body":"back on the Restoring the Soul program. Hey, man,"},{"startTime":29.954,"endTime":33.706,"body":"thanks for having me back. Hey, you know, this is your second"},{"startTime":33.778,"endTime":37.354,"body":"time, the third time you're on the program, you start to get Restoring the Soul"},{"startTime":37.402,"endTime":41.162,"body":"frequent flyer miles, and you'll receive a quality"},{"startTime":41.226,"endTime":44.906,"body":"pen in the mail for which we spared absolutely every expense."},{"startTime":45.098,"endTime":48.57,"body":"Yeah, well, I got a pen from a retreat that I was on with"},{"startTime":48.61,"endTime":52.07,"body":"you a few years ago now, and I still use that."},{"startTime":52.4,"endTime":56.216,"body":"That's right. That was incredible. It was a blast"},{"startTime":56.248,"endTime":59.512,"body":"to be with you. By the way, you have a standing invitation. Our next one"},{"startTime":59.536,"endTime":63.304,"body":"is September. No, I'm sorry. October"},{"startTime":63.352,"endTime":66.968,"body":"2nd through October 5th. You always have a standing invitation to come and co"},{"startTime":67.024,"endTime":70.792,"body":"lead a group. We've had some more friends back. I think you were there when"},{"startTime":70.816,"endTime":74.6,"body":"Brad Jurcich was there, but Ian Cron now co leads a group every"},{"startTime":74.64,"endTime":77.992,"body":"weekend. It's kind of like once you attend that and you get to see the"},{"startTime":78.016,"endTime":81.466,"body":"transformation, you get the bug. And it's not"},{"startTime":81.538,"endTime":85.322,"body":"frequently that that even I get to be in spaces like that where you see"},{"startTime":85.346,"endTime":89.018,"body":"that kind of healing. Yeah. Oh, it's so good. Brad was there."},{"startTime":89.074,"endTime":92.794,"body":"Kurt. Kurt Thompson. That's right. Andy Gorn was there. It"},{"startTime":92.802,"endTime":96.586,"body":"was such a good group. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you for coming."},{"startTime":96.658,"endTime":100.41,"body":"And so we usually make a couple of books available to"},{"startTime":100.45,"endTime":104.298,"body":"those men that we give as something to kind of equip them. And"},{"startTime":104.434,"endTime":108.042,"body":"we're going to surprise them with your book coming up in October. And the book"},{"startTime":108.066,"endTime":111.646,"body":"is called Healing what's Within. And I personally"},{"startTime":111.678,"endTime":115.262,"body":"believe that subtitles don't get enough credit. So I'm going to take some time and"},{"startTime":115.286,"endTime":118.558,"body":"talk about your subtitle. Here's the book Healing"},{"startTime":118.654,"endTime":122.318,"body":"what's Within. And this book is about six months"},{"startTime":122.374,"endTime":126.078,"body":"old. So this is your latest book, Coming home"},{"startTime":126.134,"endTime":129.758,"body":"to yourself and to God. When you're wounded,"},{"startTime":129.854,"endTime":133.614,"body":"weary and wandering. You covered all the bases"},{"startTime":133.662,"endTime":137.41,"body":"there. Wounded, weary and wandering. That's all of us. And yet"},{"startTime":137.45,"endTime":141.27,"body":"not all of us know that. Right. Yeah."},{"startTime":141.61,"endTime":143.91,"body":"That was inspired by an old hymn."},{"startTime":146.01,"endTime":149.714,"body":"I mean, when you read that subtitle,"},{"startTime":149.762,"endTime":153.442,"body":"you can't not hear Henri Nouwen also. Right. That sense of"},{"startTime":153.466,"endTime":157.042,"body":"coming home, coming home to myself, coming home to God. And so,"},{"startTime":157.146,"endTime":160.13,"body":"yeah, It's a beautiful subtitle. As you know, we don't have a lot of control"},{"startTime":160.17,"endTime":163.362,"body":"over titles. You know, there's this myth that we authors choose our"},{"startTime":163.386,"endTime":166.98,"body":"titles, but we went back and forth. But I love that"},{"startTime":167.02,"endTime":170.66,"body":"subtitle. Yeah, I do, too. As soon as I saw it, it"},{"startTime":170.7,"endTime":174.5,"body":"just resonated with me. And interestingly, I'm wondering if that"},{"startTime":174.54,"endTime":177.6,"body":"old hymn was prone to Wander. Lord, I feel it."},{"startTime":178.86,"endTime":182.676,"body":"And what's so important about that is that we immediately think"},{"startTime":182.748,"endTime":186.292,"body":"exclusively in terms of wandering from God. But as you"},{"startTime":186.316,"endTime":189.866,"body":"unpack in the book, over and over, it's that we wander from ourselves."},{"startTime":190.028,"endTime":193.438,"body":"And there's a fundamental disconnection there, right? Yeah."},{"startTime":193.614,"endTime":196.83,"body":"Yeah. I mean, that's the disconnection that I tease out that you and I know"},{"startTime":196.87,"endTime":198.97,"body":"as therapists is true about"},{"startTime":200.31,"endTime":203.998,"body":"trauma, what we see in people's lives. But I think it's also true as I."},{"startTime":204.054,"endTime":207.838,"body":"As I tried to tease out in the book of a more"},{"startTime":207.894,"endTime":211.582,"body":"primal story, a story that goes back to Genesis chapter"},{"startTime":211.646,"endTime":215.454,"body":"three. One that is. That speaks to our disconnection,"},{"startTime":215.502,"endTime":218.73,"body":"our alienation from ourselves, from God, from one another."},{"startTime":219.3,"endTime":223.132,"body":"And that's a story that keeps on restoring in our"},{"startTime":223.156,"endTime":226.892,"body":"lives. I like to talk about it as the 1185 chapters"},{"startTime":226.956,"endTime":230.668,"body":"between Genesis 3 and Revelation, chapter 20, and the story"},{"startTime":230.724,"endTime":234.204,"body":"that we live in, too. And so that's, you know, when we as"},{"startTime":234.292,"endTime":237.868,"body":"therapists and spiritual directors and others home in on"},{"startTime":238.004,"endTime":241.2,"body":"what's going on in a person. I sort of assume"},{"startTime":241.86,"endTime":245.36,"body":"beneath it all is some level of disconnection."},{"startTime":245.98,"endTime":249.796,"body":"Yeah. So you open the book, and the first sentence"},{"startTime":249.828,"endTime":253.62,"body":"is the most important sentence in the book. Right. And every great novel"},{"startTime":253.7,"endTime":257.3,"body":"begins with a first sentence. And part of my Asperger's quirkiness"},{"startTime":257.38,"endTime":260.388,"body":"is that I memorize first sentences of"},{"startTime":260.444,"endTime":264.244,"body":"novels, and I've done that ever since I was in high school. And"},{"startTime":264.332,"endTime":267.588,"body":"your opening line is, 26 years ago, I was"},{"startTime":267.644,"endTime":271.412,"body":"fired. And then you hit return, and there's a new paragraph. So it's not"},{"startTime":271.436,"endTime":275.092,"body":"just a sentence, but it's a paragraph. So unpack the rest of that story"},{"startTime":275.196,"endTime":278.912,"body":"in brief. And then why did you open the book with that kind of"},{"startTime":278.936,"endTime":281.54,"body":"a felt sense of failure?"},{"startTime":282.52,"endTime":286.24,"body":"Yeah. So what's really interesting is the book that came before this"},{"startTime":286.28,"endTime":289.984,"body":"was when narcissism comes to church. And there's a story behind that. It's a"},{"startTime":289.992,"endTime":293.632,"body":"really painful story, but it was not a story that I"},{"startTime":293.656,"endTime":297.392,"body":"wanted to tell in that particular book. In fact, if people have read"},{"startTime":297.416,"endTime":301.248,"body":"it, they know it's not a book about scandals at"},{"startTime":301.304,"endTime":304.512,"body":"particular people or pastors or my story it's more of a"},{"startTime":304.536,"endTime":307.71,"body":"general invitation introduction into"},{"startTime":308.01,"endTime":311.506,"body":"narcissism and spiritual abuse. I was"},{"startTime":311.578,"endTime":315.426,"body":"challenged by a number of friends, probably some people, you know,"},{"startTime":315.498,"endTime":319.282,"body":"Michael, who said to me, I think it's okay for you"},{"startTime":319.306,"endTime":322.258,"body":"to write a bit of your own story, and I think it would actually matter"},{"startTime":322.314,"endTime":325.79,"body":"to your readers. Now, I don't go into it in depth, but"},{"startTime":326.17,"endTime":329.81,"body":"the reality is, is that that's what happened"},{"startTime":329.97,"endTime":333.722,"body":"in November of 2003. I was fired. That's what"},{"startTime":333.746,"endTime":337.098,"body":"happened to me. And I lived in"},{"startTime":337.154,"endTime":340.906,"body":"the bitterness of that, the resentment, the anger,"},{"startTime":340.938,"endTime":344.65,"body":"all this stuff for years until I started doing some work in"},{"startTime":344.69,"endTime":347.882,"body":"San Francisco. I had a therapist, an IFS therapist in San"},{"startTime":347.906,"endTime":351.642,"body":"Francisco. I come in and I start complaining about all the people in my life."},{"startTime":351.666,"endTime":354.27,"body":"And he said, no, no, no, no, no, we're going inside."},{"startTime":355.33,"endTime":359.03,"body":"And he was the first therapist in my life who,"},{"startTime":359.54,"endTime":363.052,"body":"without saying it, invited me to see the distinction between abuse and"},{"startTime":363.076,"endTime":366.556,"body":"trauma. Right. Trauma is not what happens to you, but what happens within, as Gabor"},{"startTime":366.588,"endTime":370.364,"body":"Mate says. And that was the turn for me. There was"},{"startTime":370.372,"endTime":373.66,"body":"this thing that happened to me and I had to take that seriously. It was"},{"startTime":373.7,"endTime":377.452,"body":"painful. And, well, the"},{"startTime":377.476,"endTime":381.18,"body":"dynamics about that are in a previous book. But now how do we do the"},{"startTime":381.22,"endTime":384.492,"body":"work around that lasting imprint of trauma"},{"startTime":384.556,"endTime":388.304,"body":"within? So I want to read something that you wrote"},{"startTime":388.352,"endTime":391.92,"body":"a little bit later in that same chapter you said. Insulated with"},{"startTime":391.96,"endTime":395.792,"body":"activity and thick layers of self protective defenses, I"},{"startTime":395.816,"endTime":399.568,"body":"lived chronically disconnected from any real source of"},{"startTime":399.624,"endTime":403.184,"body":"care or love. I wasn't myself. And"},{"startTime":403.352,"endTime":406.8,"body":"somewhere deep down I knew it. And I love that I"},{"startTime":406.84,"endTime":410.22,"body":"highlighted it and I put a big star in the margin because"},{"startTime":410.69,"endTime":414.282,"body":"I want to say thank you for stewarding in the same way that we"},{"startTime":414.306,"endTime":417.898,"body":"steward our paycheck and we give you steward your"},{"startTime":417.954,"endTime":421.578,"body":"brokenness and you steward that situation. And I think"},{"startTime":421.634,"endTime":425.45,"body":"people will be really hopeful. And what I did when I read that"},{"startTime":425.49,"endTime":429.066,"body":"sentence, you know, even though I've kind of been in the same place of decades"},{"startTime":429.098,"endTime":432.922,"body":"ago, falling apart and continuing to fall apart, I exhaled and"},{"startTime":432.946,"endTime":436.746,"body":"I said, oh, I have tremendous respect for Chuck. And he lived"},{"startTime":436.778,"endTime":440.6,"body":"in a way where he was disconnected from any real care or love. There"},{"startTime":440.64,"endTime":443.32,"body":"must be hope for me. And I think a lot of other people will feel"},{"startTime":443.36,"endTime":446.488,"body":"that. So unpack that idea again of being"},{"startTime":446.544,"endTime":450.392,"body":"disconnected from care or love. Because somebody might go, okay, a"},{"startTime":450.416,"endTime":453.848,"body":"workaholic, you know, his head is down and he's not really paying attention."},{"startTime":454.024,"endTime":457.86,"body":"But really, you were disconnected from care and love."},{"startTime":458.64,"endTime":462.392,"body":"Yeah. And what's, what's strange about that, right, is I was in. I was"},{"startTime":462.416,"endTime":466.216,"body":"in ministry in Pastoral ministry. I was a therapist. I was leading silent"},{"startTime":466.248,"endTime":469.974,"body":"retreats. I was using the work of you and"},{"startTime":469.982,"endTime":473.734,"body":"I beforehand were talking about Richard Rohr and Martin Laird and others like that. I"},{"startTime":473.742,"endTime":477.51,"body":"was inviting people into that work, and yet I was scared of the"},{"startTime":477.55,"endTime":481.35,"body":"silence. I had a lot of people in my life, and"},{"startTime":481.39,"endTime":485.21,"body":"yet I was fearful of connection, real connection, the vulnerability."},{"startTime":485.95,"endTime":489.702,"body":"And so I stayed busy and produced and performed. I was out"},{"startTime":489.726,"endTime":493.11,"body":"in San Francisco at the time and we were starting some things, a missional training"},{"startTime":493.19,"endTime":496.866,"body":"center out there. And. And I was supposed to be the. The healthy"},{"startTime":496.898,"endTime":500.482,"body":"anchor of it. I was, I was the pastoral care and counseling guy"},{"startTime":500.626,"endTime":503.778,"body":"who is supposed to do the work of inviting people to"},{"startTime":503.834,"endTime":507.41,"body":"connection while at the same time sabotaging connection"},{"startTime":507.57,"endTime":511.266,"body":"at some level in my own life. And I was, I was in therapy. But"},{"startTime":511.338,"endTime":514.978,"body":"as you know from the book, it took"},{"startTime":515.034,"endTime":518.45,"body":"me experiencing a health crisis"},{"startTime":518.53,"endTime":522.05,"body":"really to wake me up. I was on vacation in Mexico. My"},{"startTime":522.09,"endTime":524.94,"body":"body had. The toll, had been"},{"startTime":525.8,"endTime":529.52,"body":"growing in my body. We all know that the line, the body"},{"startTime":529.56,"endTime":532.96,"body":"keeps the score now. But that's really what happened in"},{"startTime":533.08,"endTime":536.912,"body":"Cabo, Mexico, of all places. I was standing in"},{"startTime":536.936,"endTime":540.48,"body":"a shower one night in the middle of the night, hot water pulsing on my"},{"startTime":540.52,"endTime":544.272,"body":"back in such pain that my wife finally said, we have to"},{"startTime":544.296,"endTime":547.952,"body":"get you to the emergency room. I said, I'll be fine. And that was the"},{"startTime":547.976,"endTime":551.542,"body":"monster I lived by. Even though, like you, I"},{"startTime":551.566,"endTime":555.414,"body":"invite people to, into, well, to recognize the"},{"startTime":555.422,"endTime":559.126,"body":"dishonesty of that. Right. But it was my wake up call"},{"startTime":559.198,"endTime":562.854,"body":"landing in that hospital and you, you unpack"},{"startTime":562.902,"endTime":566.31,"body":"that. And I want to come back to the body in a minute. But. But"},{"startTime":566.43,"endTime":570.182,"body":"because you unpacked that story in the chapter about the body tells a"},{"startTime":570.206,"endTime":573.85,"body":"story. And I love how you took the phrase"},{"startTime":574.19,"endTime":577.478,"body":"the body keeps the score and you turned it a little bit to. It tells"},{"startTime":577.494,"endTime":581.18,"body":"a story. And then it's so important that we talk about that."},{"startTime":581.22,"endTime":584.924,"body":"But first, the whole book is framed around three questions. And"},{"startTime":584.932,"endTime":588.492,"body":"I knew the three questions because we had talked about it in a previous conversation."},{"startTime":588.556,"endTime":592.028,"body":"But what was so beautiful was how you"},{"startTime":592.084,"endTime":595.932,"body":"contrasted how we typically hear those questions of"},{"startTime":596.116,"endTime":599.772,"body":"God saying, where are you? Who told you? And have you eaten from the"},{"startTime":599.796,"endTime":602.956,"body":"tree? We typically hear those as a shaming"},{"startTime":603.148,"endTime":606.94,"body":"interrogation question. Like on the old Hogan's Heroes show,"},{"startTime":606.98,"endTime":610.332,"body":"you would see them being interrogated with the light bulb, you know, hanging over them,"},{"startTime":610.436,"endTime":614.188,"body":"and I'm busted and I'm in trouble. And you said, let's reconsider this."},{"startTime":614.324,"endTime":618.012,"body":"What if it was a pursuing question and a compassion"},{"startTime":618.076,"endTime":621.564,"body":"question where God is showing up for relationships? So will you Contrast"},{"startTime":621.612,"endTime":624.84,"body":"those. Yeah, Well, I grew up in"},{"startTime":625.3,"endTime":628.72,"body":"a TR tradition, a terribly reformed tradition."},{"startTime":629.62,"endTime":633.274,"body":"I know I'm in spaces now that are described"},{"startTime":633.322,"endTime":637.002,"body":"as more generously reformed, where these questions sound a whole lot"},{"startTime":637.026,"endTime":640.602,"body":"more kind. But I grew up in a tradition where, you know, the"},{"startTime":640.626,"endTime":644.442,"body":"Bible starts with God's anger. It doesn't start in the garden. It doesn't start with"},{"startTime":644.466,"endTime":648.234,"body":"goodness, but it. But it starts with sin,"},{"startTime":648.282,"endTime":652.01,"body":"and it starts with God's anger. And I heard those questions as a, where"},{"startTime":652.05,"endTime":655.83,"body":"are. Where the hell are you? And what have you done?"},{"startTime":656.29,"endTime":659.898,"body":"And lived in that. Lived in that story for a good number of years."},{"startTime":659.954,"endTime":663.622,"body":"And so that shapes the way. And you did such a beautiful job in"},{"startTime":663.646,"endTime":666.93,"body":"your book of talking about God attachment, you know, the way our"},{"startTime":667.31,"endTime":671.142,"body":"primal attachments to our parents shape the"},{"startTime":671.166,"endTime":674.886,"body":"way we experience God. Right. But that's exactly what happened to me. God"},{"startTime":674.918,"endTime":677.49,"body":"was not trustworthy. And so."},{"startTime":678.43,"endTime":682.182,"body":"And that experience of God really does shape a"},{"startTime":682.206,"endTime":684.89,"body":"life after that. It shapes the way we behave,"},{"startTime":686.35,"endTime":689.75,"body":"the way our addictions form"},{"startTime":689.79,"endTime":693.558,"body":"within us. And so it took a good"},{"startTime":693.614,"endTime":696.982,"body":"number of years, and it took, well, again, as you point out in your own"},{"startTime":697.006,"endTime":700.742,"body":"book, the safety of people in my life, particularly men in"},{"startTime":700.766,"endTime":704.614,"body":"my life, who sat with me with smiles on their faces,"},{"startTime":704.742,"endTime":708.17,"body":"with hugs before and after our sessions, with kindness,"},{"startTime":708.67,"endTime":712.278,"body":"to begin to get me to wonder, could God be that kind"},{"startTime":712.334,"endTime":715.99,"body":"too? And it was in the early 2000s that"},{"startTime":716.03,"endTime":719.29,"body":"that first question, where are you? I was leading a retreat in the early"},{"startTime":719.33,"endTime":721.67,"body":"2000s, and it struck me that"},{"startTime":722.77,"endTime":725.642,"body":"actually may be a question of curiosity and"},{"startTime":725.666,"endTime":728.99,"body":"compassion, not of anger, not of wrath."},{"startTime":730.21,"endTime":733.802,"body":"The two questions after that, who told you? And then that third question, have you"},{"startTime":733.826,"endTime":737.658,"body":"eaten the tree? Which I've translated as, where have you taken"},{"startTime":737.714,"endTime":741.434,"body":"your hunger and thirst? To me are equally kind questions"},{"startTime":741.482,"endTime":744.964,"body":"that tease out that first question. But God"},{"startTime":745.012,"endTime":748.324,"body":"begins as the, as I said in the book, as the compassionate"},{"startTime":748.372,"endTime":751.84,"body":"witness. And as you know, as I know, in trauma work,"},{"startTime":752.22,"endTime":755.56,"body":"what we believe deeply is that we're wounded"},{"startTime":755.98,"endTime":759.62,"body":"in relationship and we're healed in relationship. And in the"},{"startTime":759.66,"endTime":763.3,"body":"absence of connection, trauma deepens within us. And so to"},{"startTime":763.34,"endTime":767.092,"body":"have someone, not least God, bear witness in the way that God"},{"startTime":767.156,"endTime":770.484,"body":"does, moving kindly, moving compassionately toward Adam and"},{"startTime":770.492,"endTime":773.772,"body":"Eve, I think is pretty profound and says a"},{"startTime":773.796,"endTime":777.58,"body":"lot, speaks to the kind of work that we do as"},{"startTime":777.62,"endTime":781.34,"body":"we bear witness to people in their trauma. Yeah, when I"},{"startTime":781.38,"endTime":784.476,"body":"read those three questions and I saw the"},{"startTime":784.548,"endTime":787.98,"body":"contrast with the, you're busted and, you"},{"startTime":788.02,"endTime":791.5,"body":"know, you're in deep doo doo, and then versus the"},{"startTime":791.54,"endTime":795.372,"body":"curiosity and compassion, I actually thought of being a"},{"startTime":795.396,"endTime":799.206,"body":"parent and. And kind of being Away for the night and coming"},{"startTime":799.278,"endTime":803.078,"body":"home, and there's a. There's been a party and, you know,"},{"startTime":803.134,"endTime":806.758,"body":"certain child, which I will not name, was told not to have friends"},{"startTime":806.814,"endTime":810.47,"body":"over, and there's pizza boxes all over, and there's a question"},{"startTime":810.51,"endTime":814.214,"body":"about whether there's alcohol there. And rather than going, you know,"},{"startTime":814.302,"endTime":818.102,"body":"losing it and going, I can't believe you did this, which is within my nature"},{"startTime":818.166,"endTime":821.958,"body":"and my reactivity, instead, there's a sense of, you know, after everything gets cleaned"},{"startTime":821.974,"endTime":825.618,"body":"up, sitting down, going, what was going on inside of you?"},{"startTime":825.674,"endTime":829.394,"body":"Yeah. When you did this? And so God's curiosity"},{"startTime":829.442,"endTime":832.946,"body":"is always about a pursuit. Right. That. That he wants to move"},{"startTime":833.018,"endTime":836.834,"body":"closer to us rather than push us away or"},{"startTime":836.922,"endTime":839.95,"body":"remove us. So I just thought it was so"},{"startTime":840.33,"endTime":844.162,"body":"beautiful to see God's. God's compassion in that. And I think"},{"startTime":844.186,"endTime":847.81,"body":"that's one of the things that therapists do so well, and especially you"},{"startTime":847.93,"endTime":851.634,"body":"and people that have done deep contemplative work and exegesis around the"},{"startTime":851.642,"endTime":855.382,"body":"scriptures is beginning to. To reframe a lot"},{"startTime":855.406,"endTime":858.77,"body":"of the scriptures that for so long we've seen as,"},{"startTime":859.15,"endTime":862.886,"body":"you know, God is dangerous. And C.S. lewis quote that God"},{"startTime":862.918,"endTime":866.23,"body":"is not safe. You know, he's good, but he's not safe. Well, you can't have"},{"startTime":866.27,"endTime":870.038,"body":"goodness and safety separated. Right. Because if you don't have safety. So"},{"startTime":870.094,"endTime":873.606,"body":"I love that quote from Lewis, and I understand the meaning behind it, that he's"},{"startTime":873.638,"endTime":877.014,"body":"always telling us to step out, but that. That's"},{"startTime":877.062,"endTime":880.8,"body":"frequently addressed because people will be like, well, what about C.S. Lewis? You know,"},{"startTime":880.84,"endTime":884.5,"body":"there. Yeah. C.S. lewis was not infallible. Yeah."},{"startTime":884.92,"endTime":888.4,"body":"So talk about in the body, you talk"},{"startTime":888.44,"endTime":891.968,"body":"about. And I've never seen this broken out, this simply"},{"startTime":892.144,"endTime":895.792,"body":"that the chapter is called Our Body Tells a Story. And then you broke it"},{"startTime":895.816,"endTime":899.248,"body":"down to not how just our body tells a story, but our behavior"},{"startTime":899.344,"endTime":902.752,"body":"tells a story, our thoughts tell a story, our"},{"startTime":902.776,"endTime":906.614,"body":"emotions tell a story, and then our relational energy tells a story."},{"startTime":906.752,"endTime":910.522,"body":"Just yesterday, just yesterday on day three of an intensive,"},{"startTime":910.586,"endTime":914.282,"body":"I was talking to a man, and he basically said, I had no idea,"},{"startTime":914.346,"endTime":917.642,"body":"Michael, that these things that I experience affected"},{"startTime":917.706,"endTime":921.338,"body":"me and my words to him short time later."},{"startTime":921.474,"endTime":925.162,"body":"And it was said, I think, with humility and kindness. But my"},{"startTime":925.186,"endTime":928.954,"body":"words were something like, just based on the symptoms"},{"startTime":929.002,"endTime":932.15,"body":"of why you're here, I could have predicted your story."},{"startTime":932.94,"endTime":936.5,"body":"And you tease that out in a beautiful way, not just in the relational"},{"startTime":936.58,"endTime":940.388,"body":"energy, but unpack those different categories. And then I'd like"},{"startTime":940.444,"endTime":944.1,"body":"to have you try to describe the"},{"startTime":944.14,"endTime":947.956,"body":"diagram that you have with the symptoms in the middle and then the circle"},{"startTime":947.988,"endTime":951.06,"body":"around it. Because I see in images all the time, and that'll stick with me"},{"startTime":951.1,"endTime":954.66,"body":"forever. Yeah, well, yeah. The main"},{"startTime":954.7,"endTime":958.228,"body":"image that I use of this is of a dashboard. Right. And"},{"startTime":958.364,"endTime":962.11,"body":"on that dashboard that we live with as we're driving along"},{"startTime":962.49,"endTime":965.522,"body":"in our daily lives are our thoughts, our"},{"startTime":965.546,"endTime":969.362,"body":"emotions, our bodies, our behaviors, our relationships. And"},{"startTime":969.386,"endTime":973.122,"body":"I'd probably add to that today what's stirring in"},{"startTime":973.146,"endTime":976.93,"body":"our soul as well, spiritually. Right. But I think these"},{"startTime":976.97,"endTime":980.802,"body":"are things that for us are early indicators. Much like"},{"startTime":980.826,"endTime":984.31,"body":"on a dashboard, the brake light goes on. Early indicators."},{"startTime":984.73,"endTime":988.354,"body":"Why am I having intrusive thoughts these days? What's going on with that? Why am"},{"startTime":988.362,"endTime":991.43,"body":"I constantly sad or angry?"},{"startTime":992.97,"endTime":996.722,"body":"Why, why. Why do I have such extreme"},{"startTime":996.786,"endTime":1000.402,"body":"stomach pain or back pain? You know, these. These are indicators. These are the"},{"startTime":1000.426,"endTime":1004.114,"body":"warning lights in the dashboard. And I talk about with my clients. Yellow lights,"},{"startTime":1004.162,"endTime":1007.81,"body":"green lights, yellow lights, red. Red lights. Right. Sometimes my clients will"},{"startTime":1007.85,"endTime":1011.426,"body":"say, it's just a. It's a yellow light. I've just noticed"},{"startTime":1011.458,"endTime":1015.26,"body":"lately that I've been a little bit more sad than usual. At other"},{"startTime":1015.3,"endTime":1018.748,"body":"times, it's a red light, you know, like I can't get out of bed. That's"},{"startTime":1018.764,"endTime":1022.54,"body":"how sad I am. Or in our relationships, we'll notice."},{"startTime":1022.62,"endTime":1026.46,"body":"You know, I. I intentionally don't go to that grocery store because"},{"startTime":1026.5,"endTime":1028.844,"body":"I know that so and so is going to be there, and so I avoid"},{"startTime":1028.892,"endTime":1032.62,"body":"it completely. And so these are for us in the work that we do as"},{"startTime":1032.66,"endTime":1036.076,"body":"therapists. These are those initial warning lights that get us curious"},{"startTime":1036.108,"endTime":1039.48,"body":"about the deeper story of what's going on in the body."},{"startTime":1040.27,"endTime":1044.022,"body":"And talk a little bit about relational energy, telling a story. Because"},{"startTime":1044.046,"endTime":1047.878,"body":"I think people will intuitively say yes, emotions,"},{"startTime":1047.974,"endTime":1051.59,"body":"behaviors, thoughts, and even the symptoms in my body. But"},{"startTime":1051.63,"endTime":1055.462,"body":"this is so important because out of those other categories"},{"startTime":1055.526,"endTime":1059.142,"body":"of activation, we do develop a relational energy that we"},{"startTime":1059.166,"endTime":1062.854,"body":"carry through all of life. And that's often where we encounter the problems."},{"startTime":1062.902,"endTime":1066.534,"body":"Right? That's where we hit a wall. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I've had people on"},{"startTime":1066.542,"endTime":1070.052,"body":"the one hand say my relational energy is perpetually"},{"startTime":1070.116,"endTime":1073.956,"body":"oppositional and I'm just always looking for a fight. Or others"},{"startTime":1074.028,"endTime":1077.524,"body":"who say I wake up in the morning thinking about who I can avoid"},{"startTime":1077.572,"endTime":1081.156,"body":"or how I can stay away from people"},{"startTime":1081.228,"endTime":1084.88,"body":"today. And I have others who say my relational energy is"},{"startTime":1085.34,"endTime":1089.092,"body":"codependent. I'm a people pleaser, and I don't know how to"},{"startTime":1089.116,"endTime":1092.324,"body":"have honest conversations with people. And so it's really important."},{"startTime":1092.412,"endTime":1095.918,"body":"Again, you were saying it earlier. For us in our"},{"startTime":1095.974,"endTime":1099.726,"body":"work, those things say a lot about a person's story."},{"startTime":1099.878,"endTime":1103.71,"body":"The present reveals the Past, so to speak. Right. And it"},{"startTime":1103.75,"endTime":1107.39,"body":"gives us fodder as we ask our"},{"startTime":1107.43,"endTime":1111.182,"body":"next curious question with a client. And maybe a"},{"startTime":1111.206,"endTime":1114.942,"body":"familiar way of just fleshing out this idea of"},{"startTime":1114.966,"endTime":1118.686,"body":"relational energy is take your enneagram number, right? It's not"},{"startTime":1118.758,"endTime":1122.462,"body":"just this description of who you are and saying I'm a two or you're a"},{"startTime":1122.486,"endTime":1126.316,"body":"three or whatever, but saying there's actually an energy behind that"},{"startTime":1126.388,"endTime":1129.48,"body":"that's related to my story. And that energy"},{"startTime":1129.86,"endTime":1132.44,"body":"actually is telling a story about the past,"},{"startTime":1133.38,"endTime":1137.228,"body":"so related to this idea of the body telling a story."},{"startTime":1137.284,"endTime":1140.732,"body":"And to go back to the subtitle, which I said, I love the subtitle in"},{"startTime":1140.756,"endTime":1144.508,"body":"this phrase coming home. I've. I've experienced with people"},{"startTime":1144.564,"endTime":1148.284,"body":"that when I use the phrase coming home, there's something that"},{"startTime":1148.372,"endTime":1152.172,"body":"deeply resonates in them because we all know what it's like to come home. And"},{"startTime":1152.196,"endTime":1156.018,"body":"for many of us, that coming home is not good. Therefore, the"},{"startTime":1156.074,"endTime":1159.858,"body":"work is to help people have a felt sense of coming"},{"startTime":1159.914,"endTime":1163.602,"body":"home. And they don't even realize that there's a"},{"startTime":1163.626,"endTime":1167.442,"body":"reason why they can't just experience that, especially relationally with God and"},{"startTime":1167.466,"endTime":1169.47,"body":"others and themselves. But."},{"startTime":1172.01,"endTime":1175.362,"body":"You use then the analogy, taking the window of"},{"startTime":1175.386,"endTime":1178.962,"body":"tolerance concept and activation with our sympathetic and"},{"startTime":1178.986,"endTime":1182.766,"body":"parasympathetic nervous system, and you speak about being at home"},{"startTime":1182.918,"endTime":1186.622,"body":"or experiencing a storm or experiencing a fog. And I"},{"startTime":1186.646,"endTime":1190.49,"body":"love the simplicity of that and the color of the metaphor. Unpack that."},{"startTime":1190.79,"endTime":1194.558,"body":"Yeah. Home, storm and fog. It simplifies things because when"},{"startTime":1194.694,"endTime":1198.382,"body":"you and I start talking to our clients about ventral vagal and dorsal vagal and"},{"startTime":1198.406,"endTime":1201.982,"body":"parasympathetic and they get a little lost sometimes."},{"startTime":1202.046,"endTime":1205.726,"body":"Right. And so. But it's so impressive and they're so impressed."},{"startTime":1205.838,"endTime":1209.506,"body":"I'm so smart, right? Yeah. I love,"},{"startTime":1209.578,"endTime":1212.85,"body":"you know this. In the spiritual tradition, weather patterns have been used for a long,"},{"startTime":1212.89,"endTime":1216.642,"body":"long time to describe interstates. Right. And so as I"},{"startTime":1216.666,"endTime":1220.402,"body":"sit with people now, I'm being prescriptive here. Storm is the language I"},{"startTime":1220.426,"endTime":1223.874,"body":"use. I want to hear how other people experience it. Maybe, maybe they've got a"},{"startTime":1223.882,"endTime":1227.538,"body":"different metaphor. But there are these states that we"},{"startTime":1227.594,"endTime":1231.266,"body":"find ourselves in that are states of dysregulation, you might"},{"startTime":1231.338,"endTime":1234.814,"body":"say storm, a sympathetic state, a constant"},{"startTime":1234.862,"endTime":1238.574,"body":"churn within. We're not talking about what you're feeling on the surface. I have a"},{"startTime":1238.582,"endTime":1242.078,"body":"lot of people who tell me I feel really calm. I'm a non anxious person."},{"startTime":1242.134,"endTime":1245.662,"body":"I feel peace all the time. Right. Underneath there's this chronic"},{"startTime":1245.726,"endTime":1249.47,"body":"dysregulating storm or fog, which"},{"startTime":1249.51,"endTime":1253.262,"body":"is in storm, by the way, I use the four Fs"},{"startTime":1253.326,"endTime":1257.022,"body":"Fight, Flight, Fawn and find to"},{"startTime":1257.046,"endTime":1260.686,"body":"bar the work of a couple of others. When we talk about fog, we're"},{"startTime":1260.718,"endTime":1264.122,"body":"talking about parasympathetic state, a state of"},{"startTime":1264.146,"endTime":1267.818,"body":"shutdown. Our body's going into sort of"},{"startTime":1267.954,"endTime":1271.61,"body":"survival mode where. Where it's sort of like. We all know"},{"startTime":1271.65,"endTime":1275.45,"body":"times like this where it's like the lights go out, we just. We end up"},{"startTime":1275.49,"endTime":1279.322,"body":"staying in bed. We feel shut down. We feel we"},{"startTime":1279.346,"endTime":1283.082,"body":"don't have energy. I call that fog. And there have been seasons"},{"startTime":1283.146,"endTime":1286.842,"body":"of my life where it's like, I don't. I don't remember that. I"},{"startTime":1286.866,"endTime":1290.27,"body":"don't. I don't remember a whole lot from that. Those couple of years there was."},{"startTime":1290.37,"endTime":1294.054,"body":"There's a lot going on, but I just sort of checked out of"},{"startTime":1294.142,"endTime":1297.766,"body":"life. That's the fog. Now, coming home is really important"},{"startTime":1297.838,"endTime":1301.622,"body":"because I learned growing up that there's nothing good in me and"},{"startTime":1301.646,"endTime":1304.422,"body":"that I shouldn't trust myself. But"},{"startTime":1304.606,"endTime":1308.39,"body":"humans have a homing instinct. In fact, there's this great book"},{"startTime":1308.43,"endTime":1310.902,"body":"that I found a number of years ago that I was reading called the homing"},{"startTime":1310.966,"endTime":1314.646,"body":"instinct. Sandhill cranes finding their way back"},{"startTime":1314.718,"endTime":1318.13,"body":"by way of migration from Texas to the. To the"},{"startTime":1318.17,"endTime":1321.39,"body":"bog that they were born on in Alaska. Right?"},{"startTime":1322.41,"endTime":1325.922,"body":"Or sea turtles gone for four decades who"},{"startTime":1325.946,"endTime":1329.602,"body":"returned to the same place where they were born. You know, this homing instinct."},{"startTime":1329.666,"endTime":1333.49,"body":"Humans have a homing instinct. And it's. It's spiritual, but"},{"startTime":1333.53,"endTime":1337.378,"body":"it's also physiological. It's our ventral vagal system. It's"},{"startTime":1337.394,"endTime":1341.122,"body":"our social engagement system. It's the reality that, as you talk about"},{"startTime":1341.146,"endTime":1344.564,"body":"in your book, that we're designed for connection. That's"},{"startTime":1344.612,"endTime":1348.388,"body":"home. And we know this is what I love about the work,"},{"startTime":1348.444,"endTime":1351.796,"body":"is that we know that because people are image bearers,"},{"startTime":1351.988,"endTime":1355.492,"body":"because, as I say in the book, they're made for worth, belonging, and purpose. We"},{"startTime":1355.516,"endTime":1359.172,"body":"know that their deepest hunger is for connection,"},{"startTime":1359.316,"endTime":1363.14,"body":"for home. And so for as far as we get"},{"startTime":1363.18,"endTime":1366.996,"body":"from home, in storm, in fog, in chronic dysregulation,"},{"startTime":1367.188,"endTime":1371.0,"body":"I know that underneath it all, underneath the pain of years"},{"startTime":1371.04,"endTime":1374.872,"body":"of abuse, whatever the story might be, there's a"},{"startTime":1374.896,"endTime":1378.472,"body":"quiet longing. And the beauty of the work that we get to do is we"},{"startTime":1378.496,"endTime":1381.848,"body":"get to sort of find our way there. Sometimes to me, it's like this"},{"startTime":1381.904,"endTime":1385.272,"body":"archeological dig that we're doing for the treasure"},{"startTime":1385.416,"endTime":1389.096,"body":"underneath. And that's that beautiful moment when a client says,"},{"startTime":1389.168,"endTime":1392.9,"body":"I feel it. Like I actually want that."},{"startTime":1393.92,"endTime":1397.72,"body":"But what we believe is that's actually natural. That's native to who you"},{"startTime":1397.76,"endTime":1401.356,"body":"are. We don't have to conjure it up. We don't have to create it."},{"startTime":1401.428,"endTime":1404.92,"body":"The pressure isn't on Chuck or Michael. It's there already."},{"startTime":1405.46,"endTime":1409.244,"body":"Yeah. As Martin Laird says, and you refer to him in the book, both in"},{"startTime":1409.412,"endTime":1413.12,"body":"the endnotes, the resources, and in the text itself,"},{"startTime":1413.7,"endTime":1417.532,"body":"that we never need to acquire it or attain it, that we"},{"startTime":1417.556,"endTime":1421.244,"body":"are like a person standing on the back of a whale but fishing"},{"startTime":1421.292,"endTime":1424.882,"body":"for minnows. Yeah. That's so beautiful. It's so"},{"startTime":1424.906,"endTime":1428.642,"body":"beautiful. So there is a part"},{"startTime":1428.666,"endTime":1432.066,"body":"of the book that I think is important to discuss. And you talk about"},{"startTime":1432.138,"endTime":1435.794,"body":"this. The energy sometimes"},{"startTime":1435.842,"endTime":1439.378,"body":"that we're given, whether it's from a pulpit or our background"},{"startTime":1439.474,"endTime":1443.042,"body":"of theology or how we were raised. Don't focus on"},{"startTime":1443.066,"endTime":1446.658,"body":"yourself. And you've actually heard people, because your previous"},{"startTime":1446.714,"endTime":1450.338,"body":"writing on narcissism say that focusing on yourself is"},{"startTime":1450.394,"endTime":1453.964,"body":"narcissism. And narcissists"},{"startTime":1454.092,"endTime":1457.932,"body":"are people that are really out of touch with themselves and don't"},{"startTime":1457.996,"endTime":1461.612,"body":"focus on their inner life. So talk about the"},{"startTime":1461.636,"endTime":1465.212,"body":"difference between healthy self focus and then unhealthy or"},{"startTime":1465.236,"endTime":1469.052,"body":"pathological self focus. Yeah, I mean, I think you just"},{"startTime":1469.076,"endTime":1472.54,"body":"touched on it. That's the important distinction to make, is"},{"startTime":1472.58,"endTime":1475.88,"body":"that while we hear all the time that"},{"startTime":1476.18,"endTime":1479.24,"body":"people who are self focused are"},{"startTime":1479.28,"endTime":1482.584,"body":"narcissistic, the reality is they're"},{"startTime":1482.632,"endTime":1486.04,"body":"radically out of touch with this core homing"},{"startTime":1486.12,"endTime":1489.912,"body":"instinct that we were just naming it as. They're disconnected."},{"startTime":1490.056,"endTime":1493.848,"body":"I mean, I've worked with a ton of men in particular who"},{"startTime":1493.904,"endTime":1496.98,"body":"are on the narcissistic spectrum. And"},{"startTime":1497.44,"endTime":1501.16,"body":"while it might seem like they're self focused in the sense that they"},{"startTime":1501.2,"endTime":1504.792,"body":"love the stage or the accolades or the likes on social media or"},{"startTime":1504.816,"endTime":1508.66,"body":"whatever it might be, when you get to it and you"},{"startTime":1508.7,"endTime":1512.452,"body":"ask them to tune in at some level in"},{"startTime":1512.476,"endTime":1515.92,"body":"an embodied way to their emotions, to the sensations within,"},{"startTime":1516.7,"endTime":1520.452,"body":"they're not quite sure what to do with that. They"},{"startTime":1520.476,"endTime":1524.132,"body":"certainly don't like silence, quiet. They don't like sitting"},{"startTime":1524.276,"endTime":1527.684,"body":"in a moment of silence in a counseling session. And"},{"startTime":1527.772,"endTime":1530.92,"body":"so it's the slow work of shifting"},{"startTime":1531.34,"endTime":1535.124,"body":"our posture to what's happening"},{"startTime":1535.172,"endTime":1538.916,"body":"within. And in a beautiful sense, what happens"},{"startTime":1538.948,"endTime":1542.66,"body":"is, as we do that, we become more and more anchored in"},{"startTime":1542.7,"endTime":1546.34,"body":"what Christians for years have called the true self, which"},{"startTime":1546.38,"endTime":1550.132,"body":"allows the true self. We know the attributes of the true self are not"},{"startTime":1550.156,"endTime":1553.764,"body":"at all arrogant. From the"},{"startTime":1553.852,"endTime":1557.524,"body":"perspective of the true self. We're talking about the fruits of the spirit, love, joy,"},{"startTime":1557.572,"endTime":1560.576,"body":"peace, patience, kindness. We're talking about compassion and"},{"startTime":1560.648,"endTime":1563.94,"body":"empathy. From the perspective of the true self."},{"startTime":1564.6,"endTime":1568.384,"body":"Well, from there, when we're"},{"startTime":1568.432,"endTime":1572.064,"body":"connected in that way, we can live with a kind of abundance and"},{"startTime":1572.152,"endTime":1575.66,"body":"generosity that is not at all"},{"startTime":1576.68,"endTime":1580.432,"body":"Self focus. We've done our work, but now"},{"startTime":1580.456,"endTime":1584.0,"body":"it allows us to live with joy and with generosity in a way"},{"startTime":1584.04,"endTime":1587.386,"body":"that, that is deeply other"},{"startTime":1587.458,"endTime":1591.306,"body":"centered. And so it's just a misunderstanding of what narcissism and self"},{"startTime":1591.338,"endTime":1595.034,"body":"focus is really all about. Yeah. Thank you for unpacking that."},{"startTime":1595.122,"endTime":1598.538,"body":"I've often thought about, we would never say to a three month old"},{"startTime":1598.594,"endTime":1602.15,"body":"infant, you're just focusing on yourself. Yeah, right."},{"startTime":1602.53,"endTime":1606.122,"body":"You really need to become more other centered and start thinking about your"},{"startTime":1606.146,"endTime":1609.994,"body":"parents. And that's a cute way of thinking"},{"startTime":1610.042,"endTime":1613.75,"body":"about it, but there is a. There is a very"},{"startTime":1613.79,"endTime":1617.334,"body":"healthy and important way where it needs to be all about"},{"startTime":1617.422,"endTime":1621.222,"body":"us. Because if it's not all about us like a parent to an infant, it"},{"startTime":1621.246,"endTime":1625.046,"body":"will become all about us as we grow later in life. Right, that's"},{"startTime":1625.078,"endTime":1628.742,"body":"right. And that's what people often think of when they think of a narcissist as"},{"startTime":1628.766,"endTime":1632.598,"body":"somebody who. It's just all about them and that's what drives them. Yeah, that's"},{"startTime":1632.614,"endTime":1636.31,"body":"right. So let's close with talking about my favorite chapter. And that"},{"startTime":1636.35,"endTime":1640.072,"body":"was say hello. You. You do a"},{"startTime":1640.096,"endTime":1643.592,"body":"little bit of artistry in your writing where you kind of set up, you know,"},{"startTime":1643.616,"endTime":1646.552,"body":"you invited this person and you asked them if they wanted to sit in the"},{"startTime":1646.576,"endTime":1649.512,"body":"front seat. And then you say, the strange thing about this is that I was"},{"startTime":1649.536,"endTime":1653.128,"body":"talking to myself. Yeah. So there's a dialogue"},{"startTime":1653.224,"endTime":1657.0,"body":"that is important for this healing process to come home"},{"startTime":1657.04,"endTime":1660.472,"body":"to yourself and unpack that a little bit about. About how you began to. And"},{"startTime":1660.496,"endTime":1664.296,"body":"learn how to say hello to yourself. Yeah. Well, it goes"},{"startTime":1664.328,"endTime":1667.56,"body":"back really 22 years ago now. I"},{"startTime":1667.6,"endTime":1671.284,"body":"was shuffling through the file CA at the seminary that"},{"startTime":1671.372,"endTime":1675.204,"body":"I was doing some counseling supervision at, and I found a videotape with"},{"startTime":1675.212,"endTime":1678.996,"body":"a guy named Richard Schwartz who introduced internal family systems."},{"startTime":1679.108,"endTime":1681.972,"body":"And I watched it. I thought it was brilliant. It was a very different way."},{"startTime":1681.996,"endTime":1685.652,"body":"I learned to do story work by Dan Allender and others."},{"startTime":1685.756,"endTime":1688.96,"body":"And it seemed to me, and I say this all the time,"},{"startTime":1689.42,"endTime":1692.596,"body":"I felt like it was story work 2.0 or 3.0 or"},{"startTime":1692.668,"endTime":1696.18,"body":"5.0. Yeah. Because it was inviting. What it was inviting"},{"startTime":1696.26,"endTime":1700.098,"body":"was, was a kind of attunement and attentiveness to these"},{"startTime":1700.154,"endTime":1703.762,"body":"feelings and these sensations and going in, getting curious"},{"startTime":1703.826,"endTime":1707.602,"body":"about what they feel like inside, how old they feel, what"},{"startTime":1707.626,"endTime":1711.234,"body":"images come up. That's something that I began to do a long,"},{"startTime":1711.322,"endTime":1715.042,"body":"long time ago. Continued in some my own therapeutic work over the"},{"startTime":1715.066,"endTime":1718.802,"body":"years. But also a"},{"startTime":1718.826,"endTime":1722.07,"body":"number of years ago, I was introduced to the work of Padre Gotuama."},{"startTime":1724.49,"endTime":1728.226,"body":"I won't say too much about him, he's just a lovely human being, a theologian,"},{"startTime":1728.258,"endTime":1731.452,"body":"a poet, priest of sorts, who wrote a book called in the"},{"startTime":1731.476,"endTime":1735.1,"body":"Shelter and who talks about his own work of"},{"startTime":1735.14,"endTime":1738.4,"body":"saying hello to different parts of him that he'd"},{"startTime":1738.74,"endTime":1742.172,"body":"disconnected from. Hello anger. Hello fear. Hello"},{"startTime":1742.236,"endTime":1745.692,"body":"rage. Hello sadness. And I thought that's there's such a"},{"startTime":1745.716,"endTime":1748.972,"body":"brilliant marriage between the two, right? That is a"},{"startTime":1748.996,"endTime":1752.316,"body":"sensation comes up within you that you'd be apt to"},{"startTime":1752.388,"endTime":1756.172,"body":"disconnect from. Just get busy, go on social media, whatever you"},{"startTime":1756.196,"endTime":1759.438,"body":"tend to do, what would it look like for you to simply pay attention and"},{"startTime":1759.494,"endTime":1762.862,"body":"say hello? Now, as you know, as I know, it's more"},{"startTime":1762.886,"endTime":1766.302,"body":"complicated than that. And the work that we do around these parts of"},{"startTime":1766.326,"endTime":1768.29,"body":"ourselves requires"},{"startTime":1770.39,"endTime":1773.61,"body":"a little bit more training, you might say. But I do think"},{"startTime":1774.07,"endTime":1777.902,"body":"at a very lay level, people who are listening to this right now, if"},{"startTime":1777.926,"endTime":1781.646,"body":"there's an emotion, if there's a thought, notice how you tend"},{"startTime":1781.678,"endTime":1785.442,"body":"to disconnect. And what if even right"},{"startTime":1785.466,"endTime":1789.27,"body":"now, as you're listening, maybe you're feeling some resistance, you're just angry at Michael."},{"startTime":1790.09,"endTime":1793.874,"body":"What if you paid attention? What if you said, hello anger. What do you want"},{"startTime":1793.882,"endTime":1797.682,"body":"to tell me today? Hello sadness. What's stirring"},{"startTime":1797.746,"endTime":1801.218,"body":"within right now? We live in such a self medicated"},{"startTime":1801.314,"endTime":1805.09,"body":"society, right? It's very easy to just turn on the Netflix show"},{"startTime":1805.13,"endTime":1808.75,"body":"or take another pill or scroll a bit more"},{"startTime":1809.21,"endTime":1812.43,"body":"or drink a little too much. And I think"},{"startTime":1812.97,"endTime":1816.354,"body":"this is a very easy move, it's a very easy"},{"startTime":1816.402,"endTime":1818.99,"body":"practice. Now, as you know, as I know"},{"startTime":1820.09,"endTime":1823.602,"body":"a disclaimer here, it may lead to a bit of activation in you and if"},{"startTime":1823.626,"endTime":1827.33,"body":"it gets too uncomfortable or if you find sensations"},{"startTime":1827.41,"endTime":1831.202,"body":"or thoughts overwhelming, you stop and"},{"startTime":1831.226,"endTime":1834.706,"body":"say goodbye for a little while and then take it to your therapist, right?"},{"startTime":1834.778,"endTime":1838.4,"body":"But I think it's a really good posture for growing health and in"},{"startTime":1838.44,"endTime":1841.936,"body":"human beings. Years ago, when I was working"},{"startTime":1842.008,"endTime":1845.3,"body":"through before we called things complex ptsd,"},{"startTime":1845.88,"endTime":1849.152,"body":"I was living in a high, high state of"},{"startTime":1849.176,"endTime":1852.992,"body":"dissociation. And my therapist, well intentioned, said,"},{"startTime":1853.016,"endTime":1856.304,"body":"you know, I want to talk to little Mike, who actually had another"},{"startTime":1856.392,"endTime":1859.952,"body":"name, and I just shot through the"},{"startTime":1859.976,"endTime":1863.66,"body":"moon with dysregulation and dissociated because"},{"startTime":1864.07,"endTime":1867.726,"body":"I wasn't yet ready to do that and my nervous system couldn't handle"},{"startTime":1867.758,"endTime":1870.75,"body":"that. So I appreciate the fact that you said, you know, there's times where we"},{"startTime":1870.79,"endTime":1874.622,"body":"either need to get into a very, very safe space with somebody or maybe we"},{"startTime":1874.646,"endTime":1877.998,"body":"need to start to read a book about that. But you know, it's"},{"startTime":1878.014,"endTime":1881.598,"body":"fascinating how you do this and I do this, but we, we do"},{"startTime":1881.654,"endTime":1884.99,"body":"take the Allender Story work. Integrate that with"},{"startTime":1885.03,"endTime":1888.734,"body":"ifs. Integrate it with attachment. That's right. And"},{"startTime":1888.742,"endTime":1892.356,"body":"then a trauma informed neurobiological approach. Approach. And"},{"startTime":1892.428,"endTime":1895.12,"body":"the cool thing is that. And I know this about you."},{"startTime":1895.82,"endTime":1899.588,"body":"Yes, yeah, yeah. All of that"},{"startTime":1899.644,"endTime":1903.332,"body":"stuff. And. And I've got a name for that. Integrated clinical soul care. But the"},{"startTime":1903.356,"endTime":1906.804,"body":"cool thing that I've seen about you. Can I steal that?"},{"startTime":1906.972,"endTime":1910.804,"body":"Pardon me? Can I steal that? I like that. That's. So"},{"startTime":1910.812,"endTime":1914.436,"body":"it's a book I'm writing. Right. Right now. Okay. To the, to the public."},{"startTime":1914.508,"endTime":1918.356,"body":"There it is. Icsc and we've called it that around here. But I'm."},{"startTime":1918.388,"endTime":1922.206,"body":"I'm finally putting it into words. Good. But what I. What I've seen about you"},{"startTime":1922.278,"endTime":1925.87,"body":"in the videos that you do in your reputation, in your books, and then"},{"startTime":1925.91,"endTime":1929.678,"body":"working alongside you at the weekend is that you do that seamlessly."},{"startTime":1929.854,"endTime":1933.582,"body":"And a good therapist doesn't take off their ifs hat and put on"},{"startTime":1933.606,"endTime":1937.25,"body":"their trauma informed hat and then put on their storytelling hat."},{"startTime":1937.91,"endTime":1941.502,"body":"It's a way of seeing a human being. Yeah. In this kind of"},{"startTime":1941.526,"endTime":1945.182,"body":"holistic way. And my final shout out for your book is"},{"startTime":1945.206,"endTime":1948.778,"body":"that somebody can read your book Healing what's Within"},{"startTime":1948.914,"endTime":1952.73,"body":"and feel that weaving that you've done of all these different"},{"startTime":1952.77,"endTime":1955.946,"body":"things. Because you didn't say, now in this chapter I'm going to discuss"},{"startTime":1956.018,"endTime":1959.802,"body":"ifs instead. It's like a normal part of spirituality is"},{"startTime":1959.826,"endTime":1963.082,"body":"you say hello to yourself. It is a normal part of"},{"startTime":1963.106,"endTime":1966.666,"body":"spirituality. Yeah. Yeah. Do you know the work of Elizabeth"},{"startTime":1966.698,"endTime":1970.17,"body":"O'Connor and her book Our Many Selves? I know the"},{"startTime":1970.21,"endTime":1973.702,"body":"name, yeah. So Elizabeth O'Connor, this brilliant"},{"startTime":1973.846,"endTime":1977.43,"body":"pastor of spiritual formation at Church of the Servant back in the late 60s,"},{"startTime":1977.51,"endTime":1980.806,"body":"this Washington, D.C. church that, you know,"},{"startTime":1980.958,"endTime":1984.23,"body":"Vietnam anti war protests. It was this incredible place of"},{"startTime":1984.27,"endTime":1987.782,"body":"formation. She was doing this in spiritual formation"},{"startTime":1987.846,"endTime":1991.526,"body":"retreats. It eventually became a book that's out of print now. I've"},{"startTime":1991.558,"endTime":1994.95,"body":"tried to get Harper to let me be involved in reprinting it,"},{"startTime":1994.99,"endTime":1998.79,"body":"but she was doing this in soul care retreats back in the 60s."},{"startTime":1998.87,"endTime":2002.702,"body":"You know, this is. Richard Schwartz didn't come up"},{"startTime":2002.726,"endTime":2006.478,"body":"with this in a. You know, he was just. It's"},{"startTime":2006.494,"endTime":2010.19,"body":"a particular modality that he uses. But you and I, I think probably"},{"startTime":2010.35,"endTime":2013.422,"body":"in the way that we think. I love the way you describe it, Michael, because"},{"startTime":2013.446,"endTime":2017.05,"body":"I think it's so integrated. When you've been doing this for a long time,"},{"startTime":2017.59,"endTime":2021.406,"body":"it can't help but become just integrated within you. So whether it's"},{"startTime":2021.438,"endTime":2025.182,"body":"contemplative. Contemplative sort of move that you make or an attachment move"},{"startTime":2025.206,"endTime":2028.318,"body":"or a staying Present to a sensation"},{"startTime":2028.414,"endTime":2031.982,"body":"or getting into a story. It's pretty seamless"},{"startTime":2032.046,"endTime":2035.87,"body":"work. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I appreciate the fact that you said"},{"startTime":2035.91,"endTime":2039.47,"body":"Schwartz didn't invent this. He's brilliant in terms of how he brought it together and"},{"startTime":2039.51,"endTime":2042.09,"body":"popularized it and then trained people."},{"startTime":2042.95,"endTime":2046.75,"body":"However, we know a bunch of people who have gone to the scriptures"},{"startTime":2046.83,"endTime":2050.046,"body":"and more and more they're starting to say, here's where you see this and here's"},{"startTime":2050.078,"endTime":2053.92,"body":"where you see this. And it's, yes, it's taking a modern paradigm, but we all"},{"startTime":2053.96,"endTime":2057.744,"body":"do that. I mean, the very first Martin Luther exegete looked at"},{"startTime":2057.752,"endTime":2060.3,"body":"scripture and used the paradigm from that time."},{"startTime":2061.32,"endTime":2064.784,"body":"I'd love it if you closed us"},{"startTime":2064.872,"endTime":2068.7,"body":"using one of the exercises first. Let me do another. Shout out."},{"startTime":2069.0,"endTime":2072.512,"body":"Another great thing about the book is at the end of every single chapter, you"},{"startTime":2072.536,"endTime":2075.472,"body":"list resources, so you don't have to go to the back of the book to"},{"startTime":2075.496,"endTime":2079.026,"body":"appendix. And then you have exercises"},{"startTime":2079.208,"endTime":2082.43,"body":"and practices, and in one of them you talk about breath"},{"startTime":2082.51,"endTime":2086.03,"body":"prayer. And I've talked about breath prayer on the podcast, but one of my"},{"startTime":2086.07,"endTime":2089.646,"body":"favorite prayers, I pray it every morning, is St. Patrick's breastplate"},{"startTime":2089.758,"endTime":2093.406,"body":"goes back to the fifth century. And will you just close"},{"startTime":2093.478,"endTime":2096.702,"body":"us by saying those words in the form of a breath"},{"startTime":2096.766,"endTime":2100.302,"body":"prayer? Yeah. So if your"},{"startTime":2100.326,"endTime":2103.95,"body":"listeners could just maybe take a moment to breathe, get"},{"startTime":2103.99,"endTime":2106.98,"body":"comfortable, grounded in whatever way you can."},{"startTime":2107.6,"endTime":2111.368,"body":"Let's just take a moment with these ancient words. I'm"},{"startTime":2111.384,"endTime":2115.128,"body":"going to invite you to inhale with me and exhale with"},{"startTime":2115.184,"endTime":2118.904,"body":"me. I'll give you cues. We'll just use the words of St. Patrick,"},{"startTime":2118.952,"endTime":2122.792,"body":"this British missionary theologian of the"},{"startTime":2122.816,"endTime":2126.02,"body":"fifth century, and"},{"startTime":2126.64,"endTime":2129.9,"body":"just sit with this for maybe about three or four minutes."},{"startTime":2132.89,"endTime":2135.03,"body":"So we're going to begin with an in breath."},{"startTime":2137.45,"endTime":2140.51,"body":"Breathing in Christ with me."},{"startTime":2148.09,"endTime":2150.83,"body":"I'm breathing out Christ before me,"},{"startTime":2160.5,"endTime":2162.84,"body":"breathing in Christ behind me,"},{"startTime":2173.06,"endTime":2175.32,"body":"breathing out Christ in me,"},{"startTime":2184.67,"endTime":2187.57,"body":"breathing in Christ beneath me,"},{"startTime":2197.63,"endTime":2199.89,"body":"breathing out Christ above me,"},{"startTime":2207.96,"endTime":2210.22,"body":"breathing in Christ on my right,"},{"startTime":2219.88,"endTime":2222.78,"body":"breathing out Christ on my left,"},{"startTime":2231.64,"endTime":2233.98,"body":"breathing in Christ when. I lie down."},{"startTime":2243.51,"endTime":2246.01,"body":"Breathing out Christ when I sit down,"},{"startTime":2254.71,"endTime":2257.01,"body":"breathing in Christ when I arise."},{"startTime":2264.32,"endTime":2267.96,"body":"And then finally on the out, breath"},{"startTime":2268.04,"endTime":2270.02,"body":"Christ and everyone I meet."},{"startTime":2276.0,"endTime":2279.704,"body":"Can I just say one more thing. About that as we end, Please, Chuck?"},{"startTime":2279.752,"endTime":2283.06,"body":"Yeah, yeah. You might be"},{"startTime":2284.32,"endTime":2288.072,"body":"familiar with open focus work. Les Femi's work F E"},{"startTime":2288.096,"endTime":2291.74,"body":"H M. I really taught me how"},{"startTime":2291.78,"endTime":2295.452,"body":"to envision space. The space above the space below, the"},{"startTime":2295.476,"endTime":2299.132,"body":"space to the left. We're so narrowly focused nowadays. And part of"},{"startTime":2299.156,"endTime":2302.844,"body":"embodiment in the world is imagining ourselves in space. And so"},{"startTime":2302.932,"endTime":2306.7,"body":"I just encourage and I didn't say this beforehand, and I should have for people"},{"startTime":2306.74,"endTime":2310.092,"body":"as they engage that prayer, to imagine the space above,"},{"startTime":2310.236,"endTime":2313.996,"body":"space below, the space to the left, space to the right, the space"},{"startTime":2314.068,"endTime":2317.59,"body":"within really just helps in that embodiment work"},{"startTime":2317.63,"endTime":2321.11,"body":"that is a lifetime of work, as you know, as I"},{"startTime":2321.15,"endTime":2324.838,"body":"know as someone personally was very disconnected from his body and"},{"startTime":2324.894,"endTime":2328.71,"body":"continues to do that work of experiencing that"},{"startTime":2328.75,"endTime":2332.406,"body":"space outside and within. So, yeah, thanks for letting me do that."},{"startTime":2332.558,"endTime":2335.99,"body":"Yeah, that's beautiful. Thank you for that prayer. Thank you for the"},{"startTime":2336.03,"endTime":2339.798,"body":"words and thank you with deep, deep gratitude"},{"startTime":2339.894,"endTime":2343.41,"body":"for the work that you do, both your writing and your"},{"startTime":2343.45,"endTime":2347.074,"body":"pastoral work and your clinical counseling. You. When I"},{"startTime":2347.082,"endTime":2350.642,"body":"ask, when someone asks me what, what is the role that a"},{"startTime":2350.666,"endTime":2354.322,"body":"professor is to be, I think of you and I think of the people at"},{"startTime":2354.346,"endTime":2358.018,"body":"Western Seminary where you are, because you're"},{"startTime":2358.034,"endTime":2361.842,"body":"not about just giving people information and saying, now go do"},{"startTime":2361.866,"endTime":2365.618,"body":"it or live this life. You're about transformation. And"},{"startTime":2365.754,"endTime":2369.09,"body":"also just a huge shout out to your program there, the new DMIN"},{"startTime":2369.17,"endTime":2372.656,"body":"program, the different degrees that you're offering."},{"startTime":2372.768,"endTime":2376.144,"body":"So bless you program, a new clinical"},{"startTime":2376.192,"endTime":2379.728,"body":"counseling program. That's exciting. What's the"},{"startTime":2379.784,"endTime":2380.38,"body":"website?"},{"startTime":2381.4,"endTime":2386.26,"body":"Www.westernsemsem.edu?"},{"startTime":2387.0,"endTime":2390.239,"body":"How can people find Chuck DeGroat?"},{"startTime":2390.48,"endTime":2393.808,"body":"Chuckdegroat.net I'm on the interwebs, as you"},{"startTime":2393.864,"endTime":2397.52,"body":"know. But, Michael, I'll just say this. I"},{"startTime":2397.56,"endTime":2400.912,"body":"was mentored into intensive work in the early 2000s by a"},{"startTime":2400.936,"endTime":2404.684,"body":"woman. I learned everything not to do, let's just put"},{"startTime":2404.692,"endTime":2407.16,"body":"it that way. I don't know if you and I have ever talked about this."},{"startTime":2407.46,"endTime":2411.308,"body":"No, I did a little bit of intensive work and didn't do it for about"},{"startTime":2411.364,"endTime":2415.08,"body":"15 years after that because it was such a bad experience."},{"startTime":2416.42,"endTime":2420.268,"body":"I often say, you know, I started"},{"startTime":2420.324,"endTime":2423.596,"body":"doing it again in 2015, 16, something like that."},{"startTime":2423.748,"endTime":2427.404,"body":"But you and your team are the gold standard"},{"startTime":2427.452,"endTime":2431.292,"body":"in that work, and I'm so grateful. And this new. I'm so"},{"startTime":2431.316,"endTime":2435.142,"body":"intrigued by this integrated soul care. What is"},{"startTime":2435.166,"endTime":2438.89,"body":"it? Integrated soul care, integrated clinical soul care. ICSC"},{"startTime":2439.47,"endTime":2441.41,"body":"feels to me like that is."},{"startTime":2443.07,"endTime":2446.742,"body":"That's the next step, right? Like we. We're doing this trauma work, this relational,"},{"startTime":2446.806,"endTime":2450.422,"body":"this interpersonal work, connecting it to the tradition in ways that are"},{"startTime":2450.446,"endTime":2454.15,"body":"integrated, like we talked about. So I can't wait for that"},{"startTime":2454.19,"endTime":2457.926,"body":"book. Thank you. Thank you for those words. I hope that our paths cross sooner"},{"startTime":2457.958,"endTime":2461.754,"body":"than later. You have a standing invitation to our weekend, and I'm going"},{"startTime":2461.762,"endTime":2465.306,"body":"to shoot you some dates for further out because I know your travel schedule"},{"startTime":2465.418,"endTime":2468.874,"body":"fills up and you're busy, but blessings to you, my brother. Appreciate"},{"startTime":2468.922,"endTime":2469.578,"body":"it. Bye."}]}