{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.56,"endTime":4.08,"body":"Hi, everybody, and welcome to another episode of"},{"startTime":4.08,"endTime":7.76,"body":"Restoring the Soul. I'm Michael, and today I am talking with Summer Joy"},{"startTime":7.76,"endTime":11.56,"body":"Gross, whose new book is the Emmanuel Promise. I always have to"},{"startTime":11.56,"endTime":15.28,"body":"look for the subtitle, the Emmanuel Discovering the Security"},{"startTime":16.0,"endTime":19.64,"body":"of a Life Held by God. Hi, Summer."},{"startTime":19.64,"endTime":23.24,"body":"Welcome to the podcast. Michael, it is such a"},{"startTime":23.24,"endTime":26.24,"body":"joy to be with you. And as I told you, I"},{"startTime":26.88,"endTime":30.56,"body":"have just loved your book and just feel like"},{"startTime":30.96,"endTime":33.26,"body":"these books are such siblings"},{"startTime":34.46,"endTime":35.98,"body":"and love the"},{"startTime":37.74,"endTime":41.46,"body":"therapist viewpoint, of course, but also you"},{"startTime":41.46,"endTime":45.26,"body":"can hear the spiritual director in your book as well. Oh,"},{"startTime":45.26,"endTime":48.82,"body":"thank you. Yeah, it's such a joy. Yeah. I've been a"},{"startTime":48.82,"endTime":52.54,"body":"therapist, licensed therapist for 32 years and worked in mental health for a"},{"startTime":52.54,"endTime":55.98,"body":"couple of years before that. But at my heart, I really do feel"},{"startTime":56.14,"endTime":59.58,"body":"like I shepherd and pastor people. So thank you so much for that,"},{"startTime":60.17,"endTime":63.61,"body":"you know, so I love the phrase sibling books because"},{"startTime":64.01,"endTime":67.13,"body":"a dear friend, Lisa up in Seattle, who's a spiritual director,"},{"startTime":67.77,"endTime":71.37,"body":"as soon as she read my book, she said, you've got to be"},{"startTime":71.37,"endTime":74.97,"body":"introduced to Summer and her ministry and the new book,"},{"startTime":74.97,"endTime":78.77,"body":"the Emmanuel Promise. And she was absolutely right. As"},{"startTime":78.77,"endTime":82.53,"body":"soon as I opened it. I generally read the second"},{"startTime":82.53,"endTime":86.17,"body":"half of books first because sometimes that's where the really good"},{"startTime":86.17,"endTime":89.79,"body":"stuff is. But what was beautiful about your book is unlike"},{"startTime":89.79,"endTime":93.63,"body":"mine, and these are very complimentary, is that you spent a significant"},{"startTime":94.51,"endTime":98.27,"body":"part of the book talking about different ways, and I think it's"},{"startTime":98.27,"endTime":101.91,"body":"20 different ways to actually build a secure attachment with"},{"startTime":101.91,"endTime":105.47,"body":"God. So when people get halfway through the book, there's. There's this"},{"startTime":105.47,"endTime":109.19,"body":"question that's already lingering at the forefront, and that is, okay, how do"},{"startTime":109.19,"endTime":112.83,"body":"I do this? Where do I begin? And so you give a lot of beautiful"},{"startTime":113.87,"endTime":117.59,"body":"practices and tools for that. And I would say that if anybody"},{"startTime":117.59,"endTime":120.68,"body":"is wanting to know, how can I grow"},{"startTime":121.08,"endTime":124.88,"body":"and gain a secure attachment? Get this book."},{"startTime":124.88,"endTime":128.56,"body":"And just the second half of it is great, but the first half is also"},{"startTime":128.56,"endTime":132.28,"body":"great because all the theology is there and all the unpacking of"},{"startTime":132.28,"endTime":135.48,"body":"attachment. I thought you did a beautiful job"},{"startTime":136.68,"endTime":140.04,"body":"in unpacking the. The four different attachment styles,"},{"startTime":140.36,"endTime":143.72,"body":"the three insecure attachment styles of avoidant, anxious,"},{"startTime":143.72,"endTime":147.14,"body":"disorganized, and than secure."},{"startTime":147.62,"endTime":151.34,"body":"So kudos on that. Just so, so well done. The"},{"startTime":151.34,"endTime":154.9,"body":"book is so readable. Thank you so much. I"},{"startTime":154.98,"endTime":158.38,"body":"have to say that that means a lot coming from a"},{"startTime":158.38,"endTime":161.699,"body":"therapist who's been in practice for so long."},{"startTime":161.86,"endTime":165.14,"body":"And I really did 10 years of study"},{"startTime":166.5,"endTime":170.02,"body":"on attachment before writing the book, but."},{"startTime":171.46,"endTime":175.18,"body":"Yeah, that just means a lot coming from you. Well,"},{"startTime":175.18,"endTime":178.78,"body":"if you started studying 10 years before writing the book, you probably"},{"startTime":178.78,"endTime":181.98,"body":"saw What I've seen, and that is the evolution of the field"},{"startTime":182.38,"endTime":185.82,"body":"and this revolution of it being a pretty"},{"startTime":185.82,"endTime":189.42,"body":"esoteric idea, going back to Bowlby and Ainsworth,"},{"startTime":189.98,"endTime":193.66,"body":"and then Sue Johnson with EFT kind of being the forerunner"},{"startTime":193.66,"endTime":196.86,"body":"to popularize it in emotionally focused therapy."},{"startTime":198.38,"endTime":201.94,"body":"And then ultimately during the pandemic, I think that was the"},{"startTime":201.94,"endTime":205.42,"body":"tipping point where mental health has been so destigmatized"},{"startTime":205.87,"endTime":209.51,"body":"and people have been so hungry and realizing that this is a"},{"startTime":209.51,"endTime":213.31,"body":"category. Because if nothing else, one of the things that was"},{"startTime":213.79,"endTime":217.47,"body":"a downside of the pandemic is we found ourselves isolated, and all"},{"startTime":217.47,"endTime":221.31,"body":"these attachment needs came to the forefront. One of the upsides of"},{"startTime":221.31,"endTime":224.51,"body":"that, because I like to think that there is an upside to every downside,"},{"startTime":224.99,"endTime":228.83,"body":"especially in something so catastrophic as the pandemic, is that there was this"},{"startTime":228.83,"endTime":232.43,"body":"awakening that I see happening all over"},{"startTime":232.43,"endTime":235.79,"body":"North America, but especially in the church, to the"},{"startTime":235.79,"endTime":239.44,"body":"interior life and to the longings of the soul"},{"startTime":239.44,"endTime":242.72,"body":"for connection and to substantive,"},{"startTime":242.72,"endTime":244.32,"body":"authentic spirituality."},{"startTime":246.32,"endTime":249.84,"body":"Yeah. Amen. I really"},{"startTime":249.92,"endTime":253.759,"body":"appreciate the focus on lament that seems"},{"startTime":253.759,"endTime":257.28,"body":"to be happening across the church, where people are"},{"startTime":257.28,"endTime":260.32,"body":"starting to realize this focus on"},{"startTime":260.96,"endTime":264.08,"body":"contentment and victory constantly"},{"startTime":264.56,"endTime":268.12,"body":"was actually kind of a toxic spirituality and keeping"},{"startTime":268.12,"endTime":271.78,"body":"people from coming to. To God as they were. Just"},{"startTime":271.78,"endTime":275.38,"body":"on that day. It was almost like"},{"startTime":275.38,"endTime":279.14,"body":"they were feeling like they had to clean themselves up and say all"},{"startTime":279.14,"endTime":282.54,"body":"the right words before they came to God. And,"},{"startTime":283.1,"endTime":286.7,"body":"oh, I'm just so grateful that we're getting back to what"},{"startTime":286.7,"endTime":290.42,"body":"David taught us in the Psalms of just come"},{"startTime":290.42,"endTime":294.1,"body":"as you are to God, that he wants to meet"},{"startTime":294.1,"endTime":297.94,"body":"us in all of the emotions"},{"startTime":298.1,"endTime":301.86,"body":"that we're bringing. So I want to"},{"startTime":301.86,"endTime":305.62,"body":"come back to David, Although I kind of want to jump into your story, but"},{"startTime":305.86,"endTime":308.9,"body":"maybe you can help me remember, because you made the statement in the book that"},{"startTime":308.9,"endTime":312.5,"body":"David was an example of a secure attachment. And"},{"startTime":312.58,"endTime":316.38,"body":"I'm certainly open to that. But I've taught for a long time that David"},{"startTime":316.38,"endTime":319.46,"body":"was actually. That he had"},{"startTime":319.94,"endTime":323.38,"body":"an anxious or ambivalent attachment"},{"startTime":323.38,"endTime":326.34,"body":"style. So can we come back to that?"},{"startTime":326.98,"endTime":330.74,"body":"Well, that's really interesting, isn't it? Let's"},{"startTime":330.74,"endTime":333.38,"body":"think about it together. Yeah, let's do it. Now,"},{"startTime":334.98,"endTime":337.38,"body":"is it possible that"},{"startTime":340.66,"endTime":344.02,"body":"he was receiving from the Lord"},{"startTime":344.58,"endTime":348.34,"body":"what the Lord wanted to give him, which was a secure attachment?"},{"startTime":348.42,"endTime":351.94,"body":"And so we can hear that through security. Psalm 23,"},{"startTime":352.34,"endTime":355.86,"body":"of course, of this invitation to"},{"startTime":357.94,"endTime":361.62,"body":"not be in want to experience God as his shepherd,"},{"startTime":361.7,"endTime":365.22,"body":"to experience God restoring his soul,"},{"startTime":365.86,"endTime":369.3,"body":"setting a table before him? I mean, these are all great"},{"startTime":369.86,"endTime":373.62,"body":"attachment images, but is it"},{"startTime":373.62,"endTime":377.22,"body":"possible that he wasn't able to fully receive"},{"startTime":377.22,"endTime":380.93,"body":"that and that that was something he had to grow"},{"startTime":380.93,"endTime":384.45,"body":"in over time. I wonder about that time"},{"startTime":384.45,"endTime":388.25,"body":"period when he was running from Saul as"},{"startTime":388.25,"endTime":391.85,"body":"well. There's all of this language of, lord, you are my"},{"startTime":391.85,"endTime":394.49,"body":"fortress. He's out there"},{"startTime":395.85,"endTime":399.49,"body":"in the caves, he's out there in the mountains, he's"},{"startTime":399.49,"endTime":403.21,"body":"running from Saul, and"},{"startTime":403.21,"endTime":406.49,"body":"yet he's talking to God as if"},{"startTime":406.73,"endTime":410.25,"body":"God is his hiding place, his refuge."},{"startTime":410.41,"endTime":413.91,"body":"So there's a lot of attachment language in here"},{"startTime":415.43,"endTime":419.19,"body":"of his. And the attachment language of his"},{"startTime":419.27,"endTime":423.11,"body":"turning towards God, no matter"},{"startTime":423.11,"endTime":426.87,"body":"what's going on in his life. Yeah,"},{"startTime":426.87,"endTime":430.55,"body":"no matter the level of. But you're"},{"startTime":430.55,"endTime":434.39,"body":"right, it's clear that he still struggled and"},{"startTime":434.39,"endTime":437.63,"body":"was trying to find himself in the female"},{"startTime":437.63,"endTime":440.66,"body":"relationships of his life as well."},{"startTime":441.86,"endTime":445.14,"body":"And I would say definitely the secure attachment shows up"},{"startTime":445.7,"endTime":449.46,"body":"in his willingness and in his ability to share whatever's there."},{"startTime":450.18,"endTime":453.26,"body":"You know, whether it was the bad stuff or the good stuff, that he had"},{"startTime":453.26,"endTime":457.06,"body":"a fundamental humility, which is about trust more than it is about"},{"startTime":457.3,"endTime":460.42,"body":"lowering ourselves to some, you know, base level."},{"startTime":461.14,"endTime":463.34,"body":"So I'm going to have to give some thought to that. I think the one"},{"startTime":463.34,"endTime":467.06,"body":"area where I've always thought that it's not secure is that"},{"startTime":467.06,"endTime":470.66,"body":"he was so obsessed with God killing his enemies"},{"startTime":471.22,"endTime":474.66,"body":"and basically causing harm to the people that were against"},{"startTime":474.74,"endTime":478.5,"body":"him. And that seems to go all throughout his life, even"},{"startTime":478.5,"endTime":482.18,"body":"at the end. And so"},{"startTime":482.18,"endTime":485.86,"body":"that idea of him taking on a Beatitudes posture"},{"startTime":485.94,"endTime":489.38,"body":"to his enemies, he never quite got there. Now,"},{"startTime":489.38,"endTime":492.98,"body":"granted, a secure attachment doesn't mean that people are wholly sanctified."},{"startTime":492.98,"endTime":496.74,"body":"Right. But I will give some thought"},{"startTime":496.74,"endTime":500.52,"body":"to that because I wholeheartedly believe that"},{"startTime":500.52,"endTime":504.36,"body":"the foundation as you talk about in the book is our"},{"startTime":504.36,"endTime":507.96,"body":"ability to say, God, I'm thirsty and you're not coming"},{"startTime":507.96,"endTime":511.76,"body":"through for me or God, I'm angry. And why do you let the"},{"startTime":511.76,"endTime":514.68,"body":"wicked prosper and all of those kinds of things?"},{"startTime":516.84,"endTime":519.92,"body":"So thank you for that. Thank you for engaging me. I want to just hit"},{"startTime":519.92,"endTime":523.32,"body":"pause and will you share with our listeners who you are"},{"startTime":524.21,"endTime":527.93,"body":"and what your journey has been? Because early in the"},{"startTime":527.93,"endTime":531.65,"body":"book, I think in the introduction, you"},{"startTime":531.97,"endTime":535.69,"body":"share about a move that happened geographically from where you"},{"startTime":535.69,"endTime":539.41,"body":"were raised in a somewhat rural setting"},{"startTime":539.65,"endTime":543.21,"body":"and where there was a great deal of security. And this"},{"startTime":543.21,"endTime":547.05,"body":"move really caused a significant attachment wound. And the reason"},{"startTime":547.05,"endTime":550.17,"body":"why I think it's important to start here in this conversation, just as you did"},{"startTime":550.17,"endTime":554.01,"body":"in the book, is many people think, well, only"},{"startTime":554.01,"endTime":557.25,"body":"if I was physically beaten or sexually abused"},{"startTime":557.73,"endTime":561.45,"body":"or abandoned or something like that, only then do I have"},{"startTime":561.45,"endTime":565.13,"body":"an attachment wound. But there are things that are major life"},{"startTime":565.13,"endTime":568.73,"body":"transitions that actually can"},{"startTime":568.73,"endTime":572.45,"body":"cause these kinds of wounds. Yeah, I"},{"startTime":572.45,"endTime":576.21,"body":"agree. Yeah. Those major transitions in life,"},{"startTime":576.53,"endTime":580.17,"body":"really, if we talk about neurobiology and"},{"startTime":580.17,"endTime":583.95,"body":"interpersonal neurobiology, then the loss of a big"},{"startTime":584.03,"endTime":587.63,"body":"community can shake up"},{"startTime":587.95,"endTime":591.79,"body":"our sense of security in a huge way. So"},{"startTime":591.79,"endTime":595.63,"body":"I'm a spiritual director. I live in the northern"},{"startTime":595.79,"endTime":599.39,"body":"Columbus, Ohio area and I've been an"},{"startTime":599.39,"endTime":601.63,"body":"Anglican priest for 20 years."},{"startTime":602.99,"endTime":606.75,"body":"I worked as a pastor in a church"},{"startTime":606.83,"endTime":610.35,"body":"in a sweet congregation in south haven,"},{"startTime":610.35,"endTime":614.19,"body":"Michigan for 10 years with my husband. And that"},{"startTime":614.19,"endTime":617.89,"body":"was. That group of people was such a joy. It"},{"startTime":617.89,"endTime":621.53,"body":"was at that time, sitting with people and"},{"startTime":621.61,"endTime":625.33,"body":"hearing their stories over and over, stories"},{"startTime":625.33,"endTime":628.65,"body":"in which they were stuck, that they kept going back"},{"startTime":628.97,"endTime":632.57,"body":"to a resentment or a grief or"},{"startTime":633.05,"endTime":636.49,"body":"an unforgiveness in their life. That"},{"startTime":636.57,"endTime":640.25,"body":"I started going to healing care ministries and"},{"startTime":640.25,"endTime":643.61,"body":"learning from Terry Wardle and Ann Halley"},{"startTime":644.65,"endTime":648.47,"body":"and learning about inner healing"},{"startTime":648.55,"endTime":652.39,"body":"and inner healing, healing care groups"},{"startTime":652.39,"endTime":656.23,"body":"that were created. And we just did one of"},{"startTime":656.23,"endTime":659.67,"body":"these healing care groups after another in this congregation."},{"startTime":660.23,"endTime":663.67,"body":"Just I did 12 at a time there."},{"startTime":663.83,"endTime":666.95,"body":"They were 16 weeks at the time. Now they're 12 weeks."},{"startTime":668.15,"endTime":671.67,"body":"But they were deep work of moving"},{"startTime":671.83,"endTime":675.55,"body":"through spaces, of recognizing how"},{"startTime":675.55,"endTime":678.68,"body":"the Lord wants you. Our, our full"},{"startTime":678.76,"endTime":682.2,"body":"humanity wants us as we are and then"},{"startTime":682.28,"endTime":685.4,"body":"moves, helps us to move into places, of"},{"startTime":685.64,"endTime":688.04,"body":"recognizing the wounds of our life."},{"startTime":689.16,"endTime":692.92,"body":"So I am just really grateful for the deep work"},{"startTime":692.92,"endTime":696.68,"body":"that the Lord has done in me. Essentially every"},{"startTime":696.76,"endTime":700.36,"body":"time I did a healing care group or led a healing care"},{"startTime":700.36,"endTime":703.91,"body":"group, the Lord would do new work in my life. He'd be like,"},{"startTime":703.91,"endTime":707.75,"body":"okay, we're going to work on your relationship with your dad this"},{"startTime":707.75,"endTime":710.87,"body":"year or we're going to work on this."},{"startTime":711.35,"endTime":714.95,"body":"And so for me, the deep slow"},{"startTime":715.11,"endTime":718.95,"body":"work of the Holy Spirit through the scriptures,"},{"startTime":720.63,"endTime":724.15,"body":"through the spiritual practices became"},{"startTime":724.39,"endTime":727.95,"body":"such a place of adventure. Like,"},{"startTime":727.95,"endTime":731.35,"body":"okay, Lord, I know you want me healed and"},{"startTime":731.35,"endTime":735.15,"body":"whole. Where are we going to go next? And it"},{"startTime":735.15,"endTime":738.99,"body":"felt like an invitation of the Lord to do"},{"startTime":738.99,"endTime":742.59,"body":"deep work. But before I got there,"},{"startTime":742.75,"endTime":746.59,"body":"since we're talking about my larger story, I"},{"startTime":746.59,"endTime":750.27,"body":"was born into a time period of high anxiety in"},{"startTime":750.27,"endTime":753.95,"body":"my parents life. They were just 22 and"},{"startTime":754.35,"endTime":758.11,"body":"I'm just so proud of them. But it was a"},{"startTime":758.11,"endTime":761.96,"body":"really difficult time. My dad had, was in Italy"},{"startTime":761.96,"endTime":765.48,"body":"trying to get his medical degree. He then came over"},{"startTime":765.48,"endTime":768.76,"body":"here and got it from"},{"startTime":771.32,"endTime":775.08,"body":"Cincinnati, the medical school, Cincinnati. But he"},{"startTime":775.08,"endTime":778.88,"body":"started over there. And I was born pretty much a"},{"startTime":778.88,"endTime":782.6,"body":"year after their honeymoon. It was a time period"},{"startTime":782.84,"endTime":786.6,"body":"of poverty for them, of trying"},{"startTime":786.6,"endTime":790.37,"body":"to make it work for their family. And so they didn't"},{"startTime":790.37,"endTime":794.01,"body":"really have room for childishness."},{"startTime":794.17,"endTime":798.01,"body":"Class. I was born in that, that"},{"startTime":798.01,"endTime":801.37,"body":"Dobson time period. Of everyone"},{"startTime":801.53,"endTime":804.89,"body":"reading the books about the strong willed child"},{"startTime":805.13,"endTime":807.21,"body":"and that type of thing, breaking the parents."},{"startTime":809.53,"endTime":813.21,"body":"Right, right. And so that was pretty much the only"},{"startTime":813.21,"endTime":816.57,"body":"parenting material in the church at the time."},{"startTime":818.7,"endTime":822.38,"body":"So I was born during that time and I grew"},{"startTime":822.38,"endTime":825.34,"body":"up with my dad's going from one"},{"startTime":825.9,"endTime":829.74,"body":"school after another. We ended up in"},{"startTime":829.98,"endTime":833.58,"body":"Maine in at. He was at the main"},{"startTime":833.58,"endTime":836.94,"body":"medical center getting his degree in surgery."},{"startTime":838.14,"endTime":841.86,"body":"And we were given the"},{"startTime":841.86,"endTime":845.42,"body":"incredible gift of a community during that time,"},{"startTime":845.82,"endTime":849.33,"body":"the Goodall community, who"},{"startTime":849.57,"endTime":853.17,"body":"opened their arms to all of these families that"},{"startTime":853.17,"endTime":857.01,"body":"were transitory, coming in and out."},{"startTime":857.57,"endTime":861.17,"body":"And we did beautiful work together. This group"},{"startTime":861.17,"endTime":865.01,"body":"really held up my family. And there"},{"startTime":865.01,"endTime":868.61,"body":"were. We did Bible study, of"},{"startTime":868.61,"endTime":872.21,"body":"course, together and that type of thing. But I"},{"startTime":872.21,"endTime":875.93,"body":"felt rooted, deeply rooted in this"},{"startTime":875.93,"endTime":879.69,"body":"community. And then we moved to a"},{"startTime":879.69,"endTime":883.15,"body":"rural community, community in northern Ohio"},{"startTime":884.91,"endTime":888.35,"body":"where it. Where there was"},{"startTime":888.43,"endTime":891.15,"body":"just a sense that"},{"startTime":894.03,"endTime":896.83,"body":"we know our people and you're not one of us,"},{"startTime":897.15,"endTime":900.99,"body":"essentially. And so it was just really"},{"startTime":900.99,"endTime":904.79,"body":"hard work to go from New England, which is much"},{"startTime":904.79,"endTime":908.27,"body":"more about the arts, and to come"},{"startTime":908.27,"endTime":911.71,"body":"into high sports area"},{"startTime":912.49,"endTime":916.29,"body":"where I had no skills whatsoever and"},{"startTime":916.29,"endTime":919.93,"body":"no skills for kind of coming in and making"},{"startTime":920.01,"endTime":923.77,"body":"friends in that new environment. So"},{"startTime":924.33,"endTime":928.01,"body":"it was a total disruption. And as"},{"startTime":928.01,"endTime":931.61,"body":"you know, the brain"},{"startTime":931.61,"endTime":934.97,"body":"during those 10, the years 10 to 14,"},{"startTime":936.17,"endTime":939.85,"body":"it's so moldable that those years"},{"startTime":939.93,"endTime":941.61,"body":"of being bullied was"},{"startTime":944.29,"endTime":947.97,"body":"really created a deep wound of"},{"startTime":947.97,"endTime":951.53,"body":"attachment for me. You used the word"},{"startTime":951.53,"endTime":954.69,"body":"rooted, and I think that's a classic, classic"},{"startTime":955.01,"endTime":958.77,"body":"word metaphor for attachment. You know, Paul"},{"startTime":958.77,"endTime":962.13,"body":"in Ephesians 3, 15, 16 talks about"},{"startTime":962.61,"endTime":966.29,"body":"being rooted and established in love, in our inmost being."},{"startTime":966.77,"endTime":970.61,"body":"And it's not just a metaphor, but something that's actually supposed to happen in us."},{"startTime":970.61,"endTime":973.74,"body":"And for you, those roots were disrupted. You were"},{"startTime":973.74,"endTime":977.54,"body":"uprooted. Not only did you get bullied, as you talk about"},{"startTime":977.54,"endTime":981.38,"body":"in the book, but there's just not a sense of belonging. So how"},{"startTime":981.38,"endTime":984.58,"body":"did that impact you at an attachment level?"},{"startTime":986.34,"endTime":990.1,"body":"Yeah, that's such a good question. But it's like"},{"startTime":990.1,"endTime":993.94,"body":"I walked alongside myself in that when I was"},{"startTime":993.94,"endTime":997.14,"body":"at home, I had a sense of"},{"startTime":997.14,"endTime":1000.88,"body":"rootedness. But as soon as I opened the"},{"startTime":1000.88,"endTime":1004.32,"body":"doors to this junior high,"},{"startTime":1004.56,"endTime":1007.76,"body":"it was like I had lost the truth"},{"startTime":1008.72,"endTime":1012.48,"body":"of who I truly was. So I could often"},{"startTime":1012.48,"endTime":1015.2,"body":"get back to that rooted place"},{"startTime":1016.4,"endTime":1020.0,"body":"at the end of the day or with my church. My"},{"startTime":1020.0,"endTime":1023.84,"body":"church was a very rooted place. But because this"},{"startTime":1024.08,"endTime":1027.2,"body":"school experience was so disruptive,"},{"startTime":1028.56,"endTime":1031.98,"body":"I began to really question who I was."},{"startTime":1033.02,"endTime":1035.98,"body":"Struggle with rejection, sensitivity"},{"startTime":1036.7,"endTime":1039.42,"body":"to a pretty high degree. And"},{"startTime":1042.94,"endTime":1046.46,"body":"yeah, I think that. I think that"},{"startTime":1046.54,"endTime":1049.5,"body":"that metaphor of kind of walking alongside myself"},{"startTime":1049.9,"endTime":1052.94,"body":"helps because I felt like a Different person"},{"startTime":1053.5,"endTime":1057.15,"body":"in both places. I get the question a"},{"startTime":1057.15,"endTime":1060.99,"body":"lot, and you're addressing it, is that we can have a secure"},{"startTime":1060.99,"endTime":1064.83,"body":"attachment and to be rooted and established in our inmost being."},{"startTime":1064.91,"endTime":1067.95,"body":"And then trauma or life circumstances,"},{"startTime":1068.67,"endTime":1072.47,"body":"major transition, the disruption of"},{"startTime":1072.47,"endTime":1076.03,"body":"those roots can give us the experience where we're not"},{"startTime":1076.11,"endTime":1079.63,"body":"securely attached anymore, but that we have then a"},{"startTime":1079.63,"endTime":1083.29,"body":"resiliency to kind of come back to that. That"},{"startTime":1083.29,"endTime":1086.25,"body":"place. And it sounds like that's what happened with you,"},{"startTime":1086.97,"endTime":1090.53,"body":"right? Yeah. I think my parents created such"},{"startTime":1090.53,"endTime":1094.33,"body":"a beautiful home of rest for us."},{"startTime":1095.13,"endTime":1098.65,"body":"We lived out in the country. There was a stream that went"},{"startTime":1099.13,"endTime":1102.49,"body":"beside the house. There was a beautiful"},{"startTime":1102.73,"endTime":1106.57,"body":"little forest where I was allowed to explore. And"},{"startTime":1106.73,"endTime":1109.85,"body":"I was able to commune with God early"},{"startTime":1110.65,"endTime":1114.39,"body":"by taking walks on this beautiful proper. So"},{"startTime":1114.39,"endTime":1117.43,"body":"after I got home from"},{"startTime":1117.91,"endTime":1121.67,"body":"school, I was able to take walks and be quiet with the"},{"startTime":1121.67,"endTime":1125.03,"body":"Lord and then reestablish for the rest of the"},{"startTime":1125.03,"endTime":1128.71,"body":"evening. But, yeah,"},{"startTime":1128.71,"endTime":1131.79,"body":"just really struggled in peer"},{"startTime":1131.79,"endTime":1132.87,"body":"relationships"},{"startTime":1135.99,"endTime":1139.75,"body":"for decades, really. It sounds"},{"startTime":1139.75,"endTime":1142.79,"body":"like from an early age you've had a contemplative"},{"startTime":1143.11,"endTime":1146.81,"body":"spirit that has always sought God at a deep level. Would you say that's"},{"startTime":1146.81,"endTime":1150.29,"body":"true? Yeah,"},{"startTime":1150.37,"endTime":1152.85,"body":"I. I'm really grateful for"},{"startTime":1153.81,"endTime":1157.49,"body":"growing up in a home where we"},{"startTime":1157.49,"endTime":1161.33,"body":"opened scripture. My dad taught me to spend time"},{"startTime":1161.33,"endTime":1165.17,"body":"with the Lord, and he said, come back"},{"startTime":1165.33,"endTime":1169.05,"body":"after you spend 15 minutes with the Lord reading the scripture and"},{"startTime":1169.05,"endTime":1172.05,"body":"we'll talk about it. So from the time I was"},{"startTime":1172.81,"endTime":1176.33,"body":"10, 11, 12, I was spending time in the Word by"},{"startTime":1176.33,"endTime":1179.53,"body":"myself. But. But also"},{"startTime":1179.85,"endTime":1183.45,"body":"those sweet little places"},{"startTime":1183.77,"endTime":1187.53,"body":"around our. I called the."},{"startTime":1187.77,"endTime":1191.53,"body":"The stream beside the house. There was kind of a little bit of"},{"startTime":1191.53,"endTime":1194.65,"body":"a waterfall there. And I called it my trysting place."},{"startTime":1196.17,"endTime":1199.37,"body":"But now that I know more about"},{"startTime":1200.25,"endTime":1203.93,"body":"the nervous system, I know how sweet that sou."},{"startTime":1204.55,"endTime":1208.31,"body":"The waterfall was for my. For my system. And I"},{"startTime":1208.31,"endTime":1211.91,"body":"was able to come back into a feeling of"},{"startTime":1212.07,"endTime":1214.63,"body":"connection during those times."},{"startTime":1215.83,"endTime":1219.63,"body":"It's beautiful how God's grace plays out in"},{"startTime":1219.63,"endTime":1223.03,"body":"those ways where in seasons when we may not"},{"startTime":1223.19,"endTime":1226.63,"body":"even know that we need therapy, and if we did, we might not have access"},{"startTime":1226.71,"endTime":1230.47,"body":"to a therapist. But moments like sitting behind"},{"startTime":1230.47,"endTime":1233.64,"body":"rushing water or moments of feeling the"},{"startTime":1233.64,"endTime":1237.48,"body":"sunshine on you as you sat on a"},{"startTime":1237.48,"endTime":1239.6,"body":"park bench or something like that, and how those"},{"startTime":1241.12,"endTime":1244.96,"body":"sensory experiences can put in us"},{"startTime":1245.04,"endTime":1248.72,"body":"some kind of sense of calm and peace, that there's almost always"},{"startTime":1248.96,"endTime":1252.44,"body":"a reference point to go back to of feeling safe and"},{"startTime":1252.44,"endTime":1256.04,"body":"secure. And again, for listeners that don't have that reference"},{"startTime":1256.04,"endTime":1259.6,"body":"point, that a person can have an earned, secure attachment or a gained"},{"startTime":1259.6,"endTime":1262.27,"body":"attachment as well. So, summer,"},{"startTime":1263.31,"endTime":1266.87,"body":"one of the beautiful things about the book, as in the title of the"},{"startTime":1266.87,"endTime":1270.67,"body":"Emmanuel promise is that the whole book is really revolving around"},{"startTime":1270.75,"endTime":1274.51,"body":"Immanuel, this idea of God with us."},{"startTime":1275.23,"endTime":1278.99,"body":"And you help to awaken people to that sense of"},{"startTime":1278.99,"endTime":1282.79,"body":"God with us, to point them to the fact"},{"startTime":1282.79,"endTime":1285.07,"body":"that that's a reality. But talk about how"},{"startTime":1286.98,"endTime":1290.78,"body":"you see in the work in the ministry that you do, how you see"},{"startTime":1290.78,"endTime":1294.02,"body":"this Emmanuel presence and promise"},{"startTime":1294.42,"endTime":1297.86,"body":"transforming lives and leading people into a secure attachment."},{"startTime":1298.82,"endTime":1302.34,"body":"Yeah, it is such a joy. For me, it was a"},{"startTime":1302.34,"endTime":1306.1,"body":"huge aha moment. I don't know what it was like for you, Michael,"},{"startTime":1306.1,"endTime":1309.94,"body":"when you started realizing, oh, yeah, practicing the"},{"startTime":1309.94,"endTime":1313.46,"body":"presence of God can absolutely"},{"startTime":1313.86,"endTime":1316.26,"body":"transform my everyday experience."},{"startTime":1317.85,"endTime":1321.21,"body":"So I. For me, it. That"},{"startTime":1321.45,"endTime":1325.25,"body":"awareness came with reading Leanne Payne in her book"},{"startTime":1325.25,"endTime":1328.81,"body":"Healing Prayer. She spends a lot of"},{"startTime":1328.81,"endTime":1332.33,"body":"time. Every book that she wrote was really around"},{"startTime":1332.49,"endTime":1336.29,"body":"this subject about practicing the presence of"},{"startTime":1336.29,"endTime":1340.09,"body":"God and how when we're rooted in the truth that"},{"startTime":1340.09,"endTime":1343.93,"body":"he is with us, that his. His face is turned towards us,"},{"startTime":1344.66,"endTime":1348.5,"body":"that we can receive a secure attachment. And"},{"startTime":1348.5,"endTime":1352.14,"body":"she wasn't using that language at that time, but we can go back"},{"startTime":1352.14,"endTime":1355.86,"body":"and we can see that"},{"startTime":1356.34,"endTime":1360.02,"body":"that's what she was talking about, being secure and rooted"},{"startTime":1360.42,"endTime":1363.94,"body":"in God. So it is such an"},{"startTime":1363.94,"endTime":1367.54,"body":"incredible joy in spiritual direction to invite"},{"startTime":1367.62,"endTime":1371.29,"body":"people to. To"},{"startTime":1371.29,"endTime":1375.13,"body":"practice the presence of God even before they"},{"startTime":1375.13,"endTime":1378.93,"body":"do. Time in Scripture, like even that can"},{"startTime":1378.93,"endTime":1382.73,"body":"transform us if we have this knowledge that Christ"},{"startTime":1382.73,"endTime":1386.53,"body":"is in the room with us, that his face"},{"startTime":1386.53,"endTime":1390.33,"body":"is turned towards us in kindness and tenderness,"},{"startTime":1390.57,"endTime":1394.41,"body":"that as we're reading scripture, we're reading his heart"},{"startTime":1394.49,"endTime":1398.01,"body":"towards us. And that shifts everything"},{"startTime":1398.65,"endTime":1402.29,"body":"from being a. Being a"},{"startTime":1402.29,"endTime":1405.85,"body":"checklist of something we're doing in the morning to"},{"startTime":1406.17,"endTime":1409.45,"body":"communion and connection. And"},{"startTime":1409.53,"endTime":1413.05,"body":"that's been one of the biggest"},{"startTime":1413.13,"endTime":1416.89,"body":"hungers of my life, is just knowing there's"},{"startTime":1416.89,"endTime":1419.85,"body":"something more. There's something"},{"startTime":1420.41,"endTime":1424.09,"body":"more than just information about God"},{"startTime":1424.17,"endTime":1427.15,"body":"and doing the Christian life correctly."},{"startTime":1427.95,"endTime":1431.59,"body":"There's a communion with God that He has"},{"startTime":1431.59,"endTime":1435.07,"body":"created, that he's been looking for,"},{"startTime":1435.23,"endTime":1438.59,"body":"knocking on the door of our heart. Like Revelations"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1439.15,"endTime":1442.43,"body":"20 talks about that he's been looking"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1442.67,"endTime":1446.39,"body":"for this relationship with us. So"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1446.39,"endTime":1450.15,"body":"one of the things that struck me in as I was"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1450.15,"endTime":1453.75,"body":"learning about avoidant personality or avoidant"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1453.75,"endTime":1457.54,"body":"attachment is, is that God through"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1457.7,"endTime":1461.1,"body":"that we know through Psalm 139, he was"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1461.1,"endTime":1464.74,"body":"practicing our presence from the womb."},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1465.7,"endTime":1466.98,"body":"It says, in"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1469.94,"endTime":1473.54,"body":"my frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1473.78,"endTime":1477.5,"body":"place, like his face"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1477.5,"endTime":1481.06,"body":"has been turned towards us even in the"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1481.06,"endTime":1484.35,"body":"womb. He's been practicing our presence"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1485.87,"endTime":1489.55,"body":"from the very beginning. And to me, that that"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1489.55,"endTime":1493.39,"body":"has to be one of the most healing ideas that."},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1493.95,"endTime":1497.509,"body":"That he has been moving towards us all"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1497.509,"endTime":1500.83,"body":"this time and just inviting"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1501.07,"endTime":1504.67,"body":"us to turn towards the one who's always been"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1504.67,"endTime":1508.52,"body":"turned towards us. So I want to"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1508.52,"endTime":1512.24,"body":"go back to Leanne Payne, 2001. My wife and"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1512.24,"endTime":1515.64,"body":"I and a community that we were part of. We went to Wheaton and attended"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1515.64,"endTime":1519.16,"body":"her pastoral care ministry. And Leanne's gone on to be with the Lord."},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1520.52,"endTime":1524.32,"body":"But you're right, they didn't have attachment language. At least it wasn't being used"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1524.32,"endTime":1527.72,"body":"back then. But she would speak around it in terms of the early"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1527.72,"endTime":1531.4,"body":"relationship. And she spoke of this Emmanuel idea as"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1531.56,"endTime":1535.24,"body":"incarnational reality. And this idea that"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1535.96,"endTime":1539.6,"body":"God has come, that Jesus was and is Emmanuel,"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1539.6,"endTime":1543.24,"body":"that he's with us. And that was really something we could do. But I remember"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1543.32,"endTime":1546.96,"body":"I had a copy of Practicing the Presence of God before I went. And if"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1546.96,"endTime":1550.24,"body":"you remember, they would have these book tables out there. She'd give a talk and"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1550.24,"endTime":1553.24,"body":"she'd say, go look at these five books. And they would sell a lot of"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1553.24,"endTime":1556.12,"body":"books there and great authors. And"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1557.16,"endTime":1560.96,"body":"I got a fresh copy, a more modern translation of Practicing the Presence"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1560.96,"endTime":1564.66,"body":"of God. I outlined it. I still think I have the 3"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1564.66,"endTime":1568.1,"body":"page PDF I tried to do would not work."},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1568.26,"endTime":1571.98,"body":"And little did I know that I still had"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1571.98,"endTime":1575.7,"body":"some very deep trauma inside of me. And what I came to see was"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1575.7,"endTime":1579.42,"body":"that I couldn't practice the presence of God because I couldn't"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1579.42,"endTime":1582.82,"body":"practice the presence of Michael. Oh my gosh,"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1582.98,"endTime":1586.74,"body":"I love that. Say more about that. Well,"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1587.53,"endTime":1591.33,"body":"the idea in Psalm 27, for example. We all know the"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1591.33,"endTime":1595.05,"body":"Lord is my light and my salvation. He's my stronghold. Whom shall I fear?"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1595.29,"endTime":1598.93,"body":"And yet I would walk around saying, well, God, how come I'm so"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1598.93,"endTime":1602.61,"body":"afraid? How come I am fearing? Though an army besieged"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1602.61,"endTime":1605.45,"body":"me, my heart will not fear. Well, I've got enemies. There's people that"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1606.81,"endTime":1610.53,"body":"if they found out who I was then or what I was really like,"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1610.53,"endTime":1614.17,"body":"they would leave me. So I saw this discrepancy, or as I write"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1614.17,"endTime":1617.6,"body":"about the gap between what I was promised and what I actually"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1617.6,"endTime":1621.36,"body":"experienced and what I did was, to use the phrase that you"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1621.36,"endTime":1624.68,"body":"used a couple times in your books. I downgraded my expectations."},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1625.48,"endTime":1629.04,"body":"So I said, this is as good as it gets. I'm going to have to"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1629.04,"endTime":1632.72,"body":"strive and try to get God to like me because I believed"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1632.72,"endTime":1636.52,"body":"he loved me. But then when you get to verse 4 of Psalm 27,"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1636.84,"endTime":1639.64,"body":"David is practicing the presence of himself,"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1640.52,"endTime":1644.33,"body":"paying attention to his fears. And then"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1644.33,"endTime":1646.97,"body":"he says, the one thing I want is to gaze upon the presence of the"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1646.97,"endTime":1650.77,"body":"Lord, to seek him in his temple, which is David. It's Michael."},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1650.85,"endTime":1654.53,"body":"It's summer. Right. And if you don't have that connection to yourself,"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1654.85,"endTime":1657.93,"body":"if I don't have the connection to Michael, then I'm not going to be able"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1657.93,"endTime":1661.41,"body":"to practice the presence of God. So what would you say"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1661.73,"endTime":1665.49,"body":"and what do you do in your healing ministry when"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1665.65,"endTime":1668.97,"body":"someone comes and their level of trauma or anxiety or"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1668.97,"endTime":1672.69,"body":"disruption is so great that they can't even be present with"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1672.69,"endTime":1676.53,"body":"themselves, much less to be present to God? And I'm asking this question because"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1676.53,"endTime":1679.97,"body":"I think that the world that we live in today, I don't even think people"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1679.97,"endTime":1683.81,"body":"need to have high, high levels of trauma, but rather the overstimulation"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1684.37,"endTime":1687.85,"body":"of technology and media and the pace at which we're"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1687.85,"endTime":1691.57,"body":"bombarded by, you know, news from around the world that"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1691.97,"endTime":1695.17,"body":"it's very difficult to practice the presence of oneself."},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1697.48,"endTime":1700.92,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah. For me,"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1702.04,"endTime":1705.24,"body":"getting alone in nature is huge."},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1705.96,"endTime":1706.36,"body":"And"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1709.56,"endTime":1712.52,"body":"having a space of low distraction,"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1713.88,"endTime":1716.68,"body":"one of the important gifts for me"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1717.96,"endTime":1721.76,"body":"has been so that place of low distraction"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1721.76,"endTime":1725.34,"body":"has been so important. But also centering"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1725.34,"endTime":1728.94,"body":"prayer has been extremely important to me as"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1728.94,"endTime":1731.74,"body":"well. I think we live in,"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1732.7,"endTime":1736.34,"body":"like, this high level of intensity all"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1736.34,"endTime":1740.18,"body":"the time. The television shows"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1740.18,"endTime":1743.78,"body":"we're watching is trying to get us to watch the next television"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1743.78,"endTime":1745.9,"body":"show, right? To binge watch."},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1747.18,"endTime":1751.03,"body":"Instagram is trying to keep us on their platform. Facebook"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1751.11,"endTime":1754.79,"body":"is trying to keep us on their platform. X is"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1754.79,"endTime":1758.51,"body":"trying to keep us, you know, aroused and angry and"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1758.51,"endTime":1761.83,"body":"frustrated. So we stay on their platform."},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1762.23,"endTime":1765.51,"body":"So I think we have such a high level of"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1766.79,"endTime":1770.55,"body":"anxiety and frustration that's being cultivated"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1770.71,"endTime":1774.27,"body":"that we desperately need to be"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1774.27,"endTime":1778.07,"body":"still and know that he is God, but also to be still,"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1778.07,"endTime":1781.11,"body":"as you're saying, and know that I am safe"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1782.38,"endTime":1785.94,"body":"just in the present moment. So I do a lot of"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1785.94,"endTime":1789.78,"body":"present moment work with people, do a lot"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1789.78,"endTime":1793.58,"body":"of grounding before"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1793.82,"endTime":1796.78,"body":"we do the work of inviting"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1797.98,"endTime":1801.82,"body":"ourselves to know the presence of God in this"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1801.82,"endTime":1805.66,"body":"space. So as soon as I do"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1805.66,"endTime":1808.8,"body":"a spiritual direction session, we might do"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1808.8,"endTime":1812.08,"body":"havening. I don't know if you've done that before, but"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1813.2,"endTime":1816.92,"body":"essentially you're. You're starting with one"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1816.92,"endTime":1820.52,"body":"hand on the bottom of your elbow and sliding"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1820.52,"endTime":1824.24,"body":"up. And we do this quite a few times."},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1824.64,"endTime":1827.84,"body":"The science says that it slows down your brain waves"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1829.76,"endTime":1833.6,"body":"and then you do like a sliding down"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1833.6,"endTime":1837.28,"body":"from your shoulders to your elbows,"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1838.05,"endTime":1841.73,"body":"and again there's this feeling of calm and rest"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1843.25,"endTime":1846.85,"body":"and then on our faces as well. So"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1846.93,"endTime":1850.73,"body":"giving people time to be still, to be grounded, to"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1850.73,"endTime":1854.13,"body":"be gathered before"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1855.01,"endTime":1858.45,"body":"we do any work with"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1858.77,"endTime":1862.53,"body":"their story. So really what you're saying is you help them"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1863.29,"endTime":1866.01,"body":"through these practices to Be present to themselves"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1866.25,"endTime":1870.05,"body":"100%. The beautiful thing about those people who"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1870.05,"endTime":1873.37,"body":"are listening and not watching the video, you know, as you did what you called"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1873.37,"endTime":1876.89,"body":"havening, and I don't call it that, but those kind of grounding"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1876.89,"endTime":1880.65,"body":"exercises, they are wonderful to do for"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1881.21,"endTime":1883.61,"body":"ourselves as we learn to self soothe, but they also"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1884.41,"endTime":1887.05,"body":"replicate the kinds of tactile,"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1887.85,"endTime":1891.45,"body":"soothing care that an infant or a child"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1891.45,"endTime":1894.96,"body":"would get. You know, the gentle touching"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1894.96,"endTime":1898.76,"body":"of the shoulders and you know, it's interesting, I often"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1898.76,"endTime":1902.6,"body":"think as I'm reading through the Scriptures and you talked about this with"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1902.6,"endTime":1905.92,"body":"Psalm 23, just how rich and"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1906.56,"endTime":1910.4,"body":"relentless God is from Genesis to revelation of all"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1910.4,"endTime":1913.6,"body":"of this imagery of attachment. And"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1914.16,"endTime":1917.36,"body":"my friend and colleague Andy Kolber, who wrote the book Try"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1917.36,"endTime":1921.02,"body":"Softer, she has used this phrase, she said to me once"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1921.02,"endTime":1924.7,"body":"walking out the door this very casually and it's impacted me very"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1924.7,"endTime":1928.42,"body":"deeply. All theology is attachment, which if you go"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1928.42,"endTime":1930.46,"body":"back to the Trinity, that's of course true,"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1931.9,"endTime":1935.66,"body":"but God comes in so many ways. You mentioned Psalm 139."},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1935.66,"endTime":1939.42,"body":"We can just go through scripture after scripture that we think"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1939.42,"endTime":1943.18,"body":"of typically as a right brain kind of propositional idea"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1943.18,"endTime":1946.87,"body":"like the Lord is my light, my salvation, whom shall I fear when if we"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1946.87,"endTime":1950.67,"body":"stay with it and we look at the context of all that's written, it"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1950.67,"endTime":1954.43,"body":"really is about attachment and an invitation into that place"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1954.43,"endTime":1958.19,"body":"of rest. I'm wondering if you"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1958.19,"endTime":1961.71,"body":"would quickly, because I want to spend a little bit of time"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1961.71,"endTime":1965.55,"body":"talking about the practices. I think our readers would really miss out on"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1965.71,"endTime":1969.43,"body":"the richness of the second half of the book if we don't talk about the"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1969.43,"endTime":1973.19,"body":"practices. But you do such a beautiful job in"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1973.19,"endTime":1976.67,"body":"a very priestly pastoral way of talking about"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1976.75,"endTime":1980.43,"body":"the three insecure attachment styles. Could you run"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1980.43,"endTime":1983.07,"body":"through those maybe even at a 30,000 foot level?"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1984.11,"endTime":1987.39,"body":"Yeah. So insecure, anxious,"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1988.43,"endTime":1992.07,"body":"there's this fear of abandonment. And I"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1992.07,"endTime":1995.63,"body":"think what's so interesting about when I've learned about"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1995.63,"endTime":1997.71,"body":"this, because that is, that's my,"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":1999.41,"endTime":2003.09,"body":"my attachment style, is that"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2003.41,"endTime":2007.25,"body":"not only is there a fear of abandonment, but there's a desire"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2007.25,"endTime":2009.89,"body":"to keep your loved one in the room"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2011.01,"endTime":2014.65,"body":"and attentive to you and kind of whatever"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2014.65,"endTime":2018.41,"body":"it takes in order to feel safe and"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2018.41,"endTime":2021.89,"body":"to have that loved one pointed towards you"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2023.57,"endTime":2026.91,"body":"is what you do. So you learn people"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2026.99,"endTime":2030.55,"body":"pleasing in order to make sure"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2030.55,"endTime":2034.39,"body":"that that other person is happy to take care"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2034.39,"endTime":2037.31,"body":"of you. Or maybe you get loud"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2038.43,"endTime":2042.11,"body":"and angry in order to keep that person in the room."},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2042.51,"endTime":2046.27,"body":"So that one has been really interesting for me to learn about"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2047.23,"endTime":2049.95,"body":"the avoidant personality or"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2050.67,"endTime":2054.35,"body":"attachment has to do with"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2055.499,"endTime":2059.099,"body":"feeling of self reliance and one of the things that"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2059.099,"endTime":2062.299,"body":"I've learned over time is"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2063.659,"endTime":2067.339,"body":"wondering if the avoidant has"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2067.339,"endTime":2070.779,"body":"actually been an insecure anxious"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2070.859,"endTime":2074.619,"body":"who lost hope that someone was coming."},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2076.539,"endTime":2080.339,"body":"And so there was this sense of up, I'm all there"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2080.339,"endTime":2083.05,"body":"is, I've got to take care of myself."},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2083.85,"endTime":2087.69,"body":"And so that sense of self"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2087.69,"endTime":2091.13,"body":"reliance, that if they don't take care of it, no one will."},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2093.85,"endTime":2097.21,"body":"And that that means there's a fear of"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2097.21,"endTime":2100.65,"body":"vulnerability as well, a fear"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2100.73,"endTime":2103.69,"body":"of showing their true self"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2104.81,"endTime":2108.25,"body":"because there's this need to have armor on"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2108.73,"endTime":2111.85,"body":"and to be self reliant. So that"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2113.12,"endTime":2116.68,"body":"fear of vulnerability also causes"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2116.68,"endTime":2120.24,"body":"people to put a false ego self up or"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2120.64,"endTime":2124.32,"body":"to wear different masks. And I just,"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2124.32,"endTime":2128.159,"body":"I thought it was really fascinating to spend time thinking about"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2128.159,"endTime":2130.8,"body":"Thomas Merton and his"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2131.44,"endTime":2134.72,"body":"understanding of the false selves and"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2134.96,"endTime":2138.32,"body":"his desire to be a true"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2138.48,"endTime":2141.6,"body":"person, knowing that he is"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2141.84,"endTime":2145.5,"body":"beloved by God. So you could see that,"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2145.66,"endTime":2149.46,"body":"that loss of hope in that sense that he had"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2149.46,"endTime":2152.3,"body":"to take care of himself. And then once he was in community"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2153.34,"endTime":2156.78,"body":"at Gethsemane, what happened as he started"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2157.74,"endTime":2161.5,"body":"kind of taking off pieces of armor and receiving"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2161.74,"endTime":2165.46,"body":"from the community, receiving from God. You"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2165.46,"endTime":2169.26,"body":"can see all the beautiful healing that was done in his life."},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2169.9,"endTime":2173.42,"body":"And by the way, I, I think you did a, a really masterful job of"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2173.42,"endTime":2176.68,"body":"summarizing his story that a lot of know"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2177.56,"endTime":2181.08,"body":"the fact that he, he drank and womanized and"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2181.16,"endTime":2184.68,"body":"had a child. People think of Merton as this"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2184.84,"endTime":2188.56,"body":"beatific kind of saintly person. And"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2188.56,"endTime":2192.159,"body":"he was saintly in his monastic life and his union with"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2192.159,"endTime":2195.8,"body":"God. But I think so much of his writing came out of his own suffering"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2195.96,"endTime":2199.08,"body":"and how he gained that secure attachment."},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2200.04,"endTime":2203.88,"body":"So that was really beautiful talk about disorganized. And then I want to"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2203.88,"endTime":2207.69,"body":"shift into the practices that bring about secure attachment."},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2208.41,"endTime":2211.93,"body":"So disorganized is the precious"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2211.93,"endTime":2215.77,"body":"person who has experienced trauma from"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2215.77,"endTime":2219.45,"body":"their caregiver or who saw someone"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2219.53,"endTime":2223.13,"body":"else traumatized from them, or"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2223.13,"endTime":2226.97,"body":"perhaps their caregiver had mental illness or something"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2226.97,"endTime":2230.73,"body":"like that. But they were scary, confusing, or"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2230.73,"endTime":2234.4,"body":"bizarre. And so there was this sense that I,"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2234.87,"endTime":2238.51,"body":"that this precious person didn't know whether to come"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2238.51,"endTime":2241.43,"body":"close or to go away to"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2242.55,"endTime":2245.99,"body":"protect themselves. So in life"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2246.07,"endTime":2249.67,"body":"there's this pendulum"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2249.67,"endTime":2253.35,"body":"swing back and forth between the avoidant or"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2253.35,"endTime":2256.79,"body":"the anxious trying to keep themselves safe."},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2259.27,"endTime":2262.88,"body":"So put a few words before we talk about the practices."},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2263.2,"endTime":2266.72,"body":"You've been talking about it in effect through the whole conversation. But"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2267.04,"endTime":2270.8,"body":"a simple definition of secure attachment. Because the people that I"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2270.8,"endTime":2274.6,"body":"work with, it's almost like they're checking in"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2274.6,"endTime":2278.4,"body":"and saying, do I have a secure attachment yet? But it takes a"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2278.4,"endTime":2282.2,"body":"very, very long Time in one sense. And what"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2282.2,"endTime":2285.04,"body":"does it look like? So"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2285.84,"endTime":2289.44,"body":"for me, Michael, the idea that I can"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2289.44,"endTime":2293.28,"body":"get myself home to the heart of"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2293.28,"endTime":2297.12,"body":"God, that I might not always be home,"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2297.76,"endTime":2301.44,"body":"there might be moments when I am in fight or"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2301.44,"endTime":2304.96,"body":"flight or I am struggling,"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2305.28,"endTime":2309.04,"body":"but that I can always get back home."},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2309.36,"endTime":2311.52,"body":"And that there's a sense that"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2314.24,"endTime":2317.68,"body":"the love of God is so profound that he's always,"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2318.15,"endTime":2321.83,"body":"always inviting me. That he's always"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2321.83,"endTime":2325.59,"body":"inviting me home. That's beautiful."},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2326.39,"endTime":2330.23,"body":"And you allude to this in the book and it becomes a motif, but"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2330.47,"endTime":2334.27,"body":"the story of the prodigal son and the Father that runs"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2334.27,"endTime":2337.83,"body":"to him, and that's really beautiful. So would you"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2337.83,"endTime":2341.27,"body":"pick two or three of your favorite"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2341.35,"endTime":2345.04,"body":"practices out of the 20 that are in the book to"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2345.52,"endTime":2349.04,"body":"just share with our readers? Who's not readers? Listeners."},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2349.12,"endTime":2352.84,"body":"If someone's saying, okay, how can I get started in a really concrete"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2352.84,"endTime":2356.64,"body":"way. With practices, Goodness, down"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2356.64,"endTime":2360.48,"body":"to two or three, huh? Yeah. So one"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2360.48,"endTime":2363.52,"body":"of the ones that I find most important"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2364.08,"endTime":2366.4,"body":"in the hard work of"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2368.48,"endTime":2371.92,"body":"receiving an attachment, I mean, the truth is the Lord"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2371.92,"endTime":2375.47,"body":"wants to give it, but. But we have to position"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2375.87,"endTime":2379.55,"body":"ourselves for him. So"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2379.87,"endTime":2383.63,"body":"the Ignatian imaginative prayer, I find"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2383.71,"endTime":2386.83,"body":"is one of the most helpful ways of"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2387.39,"endTime":2390.75,"body":"gaining a secure attachment. And"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2391.07,"endTime":2394.91,"body":"what it is, if your listeners don't know, it's"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2395.79,"endTime":2398.35,"body":"that beautiful practice that Ignatius"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2398.91,"endTime":2402.68,"body":"created in which we. We walk into a scripture with"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2402.68,"endTime":2404.64,"body":"all of our senses alive."},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2406.24,"endTime":2409.64,"body":"And sometimes we're one of the"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2409.64,"endTime":2413.2,"body":"characters in the story, but we're always"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2413.36,"endTime":2416.959,"body":"encountering Jesus from the Gospels."},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2418.72,"endTime":2422.24,"body":"So it's in that encounter that we"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2422.4,"endTime":2425.44,"body":"experience attachment as we see him"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2425.76,"endTime":2428.35,"body":"faced towards us, as we experience"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2429.23,"endTime":2433.07,"body":"his connection. And so one of the things that I've been really"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2433.15,"endTime":2436.27,"body":"interested in is learning from"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2436.75,"endTime":2440.47,"body":"someone at the church, Church"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2440.47,"endTime":2443.99,"body":"of the Resurrection in Wheaton. So her name is"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2443.99,"endTime":2447.07,"body":"Valerie, and she's a deacon there. And she runs these"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2447.55,"endTime":2451.35,"body":"groups that are really formed. They're"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2451.35,"endTime":2454.59,"body":"about the healing of our attachment, and they use"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2454.67,"endTime":2457.97,"body":"Ignatian imaginative prayer."},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2458.29,"endTime":2462.05,"body":"But she talked about mirror neurons and what"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2462.05,"endTime":2465.81,"body":"happens when we see someone"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2465.89,"endTime":2469.37,"body":"else being someone"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2469.37,"endTime":2472.61,"body":"else, encountering the love of God, that we can start"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2472.93,"endTime":2476.45,"body":"to imagine that we are that"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2476.45,"endTime":2480.05,"body":"loved as well. So I believe that the"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2480.05,"endTime":2482.93,"body":"holy imagination, or the sanctified imagination"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2483.65,"endTime":2486.94,"body":"is where a lot of our deep healing happens."},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2487.97,"endTime":2491.69,"body":"So I'll start there. And I'm sure you'd have"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2491.69,"endTime":2495.33,"body":"so much to say around this. Well, you"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2495.33,"endTime":2499.17,"body":"talk about Luke 8, for example, and I think it's also in Mark"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2499.81,"endTime":2503.41,"body":"4 or 5, where Jesus and the disciples are in the"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2503.41,"endTime":2507.09,"body":"boat. Talk about, just as an example of imagination,"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2507.25,"endTime":2510.97,"body":"for example, the Story of the disciples in the boat with Jesus in"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2510.97,"endTime":2513.58,"body":"the storm. Yeah,"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2514.54,"endTime":2517.9,"body":"I wonder if in that"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2517.98,"endTime":2521.5,"body":"storm it tells us a lot about"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2521.9,"endTime":2525.58,"body":"our attachment stories. If we were to be in the boat"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2526.46,"endTime":2529.58,"body":"like a disciple and"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2529.58,"endTime":2533.34,"body":"experiencing Jesus feeling safe and secure"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2533.34,"endTime":2536.58,"body":"in his Father and being able to fall"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2536.58,"endTime":2540.18,"body":"asleep. What happens for"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2540.18,"endTime":2543.62,"body":"us when we feel like he's left the room?"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2545.14,"endTime":2548.78,"body":"And so you see that in the disciples, the sense of"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2548.78,"endTime":2551.86,"body":"Jesus has fallen asleep, he's no longer available"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2552.66,"endTime":2555.78,"body":"for me. And I'm in this huge"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2556.1,"endTime":2559.9,"body":"storm, what do I do? And so you"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2559.9,"endTime":2563.62,"body":"hear them talking amongst themselves, you hear them"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2564.02,"endTime":2567.61,"body":"getting angry or getting scared. And then"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2567.61,"endTime":2570.49,"body":"finally someone wakes Jesus up and"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2570.89,"endTime":2574.25,"body":"obviously he has power over this"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2574.33,"endTime":2577.97,"body":"storm. But I think that's a"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2577.97,"endTime":2581.81,"body":"lot of what happens in our own life as we"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2581.81,"endTime":2585.13,"body":"wonder, is Jesus available for me?"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2585.37,"endTime":2589.05,"body":"Is he tuned towards other people or is he"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2589.05,"endTime":2592.77,"body":"actually tuned towards me in my"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2592.77,"endTime":2596.31,"body":"storm? That's so beautiful."},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2596.47,"endTime":2599.75,"body":"So beautiful. You know, as you were talking about that, I thought about"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2600.23,"endTime":2604.03,"body":"there's some level of attachment that's required or at least still"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2604.03,"endTime":2607.79,"body":"hope within just for the disciple who woke him up to go"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2607.79,"endTime":2611.59,"body":"over and say, hey, wake up. Because you know how many kids have"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2611.59,"endTime":2615.43,"body":"walked into their parents room and that parent has passed out or"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2615.67,"endTime":2619.03,"body":"they've, they, they're simply not there or something like that. And how"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2619.61,"endTime":2623.13,"body":"he wasn't available but he was still present. Just like the"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2623.13,"endTime":2626.89,"body":"Emmanuel idea. Right. So talk about"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2626.89,"endTime":2630.41,"body":"after imaginative prayer. What's another one that you would"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2630.41,"endTime":2634.13,"body":"encourage people who are saying, how can I gain a secure"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2634.13,"endTime":2636.09,"body":"attachment or grow into this area?"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2637.77,"endTime":2641.53,"body":"Yeah, another one is lament and learning"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2641.61,"endTime":2645.29,"body":"how to lament. And this is something that I"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2645.29,"endTime":2648.99,"body":"feel like is vital for the church to really learn how to"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2648.99,"endTime":2652.55,"body":"do and invite their people to do. Because just Sunday"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2652.63,"endTime":2656.35,"body":"morning is not enough for people. People"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2656.35,"endTime":2659.99,"body":"need to be able to bring their full stories into"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2660.23,"endTime":2663.87,"body":"the church and to know that their story"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2663.87,"endTime":2667.63,"body":"is going to be heard by God, but be heard"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2667.63,"endTime":2671.27,"body":"by others. So following along"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2672.07,"endTime":2674.63,"body":"a classic lament style like"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2675.59,"endTime":2678.92,"body":"David used in the Psalms, that can be very helpful. Helpful."},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2680.28,"endTime":2682.68,"body":"Making sure that we're being"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2683.56,"endTime":2686.84,"body":"precise and detailed, but also not"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2688.2,"endTime":2691.76,"body":"censoring ourselves, allowing the"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2691.76,"endTime":2695.48,"body":"pain of our story to come out and then asking that"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2695.48,"endTime":2698.96,"body":"question. And this is something Terry Wardle teaches and"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2698.96,"endTime":2702.68,"body":"teaches so beautifully of asking"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2702.68,"endTime":2705.96,"body":"the question, what has been the cost of this?"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2706.96,"endTime":2709.6,"body":"Spiritually, emotionally, physically,"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2710.0,"endTime":2713.6,"body":"relationally? What has been the cost of this"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2714.16,"endTime":2717.04,"body":"in allowing ourselves to know that God is"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2717.28,"endTime":2720.64,"body":"attuned towards us? There's another"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2721.04,"endTime":2724.88,"body":"beautiful practice that was created by Sangshim Lopnow"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2724.96,"endTime":2728.16,"body":"and Jim Wilder around"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2728.56,"endTime":2732.4,"body":"this experience of feeling attuned"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2732.48,"endTime":2736.24,"body":"to by God, which is called Emmanuel Journaling."},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2736.8,"endTime":2740.57,"body":"And I've go ahead and look up Life"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2740.57,"endTime":2744.29,"body":"Model works and Emanuel Journaling."},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2744.77,"endTime":2748.33,"body":"They do a beautiful job inviting us into"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2748.33,"endTime":2752.05,"body":"that process of experiencing God attuning"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2752.05,"endTime":2755.49,"body":"to us. So I really appreciate that."},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2757.17,"endTime":2760.81,"body":"Sometimes people will even have a hard time kind"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2760.81,"endTime":2764.29,"body":"of nailing down how they feel. And"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2764.53,"endTime":2767.73,"body":"even that can be a great gift"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2769.34,"endTime":2773.18,"body":"to nail down how they're feeling and just hold it up"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2773.18,"endTime":2774.22,"body":"before the Lord"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2776.7,"endTime":2779.98,"body":"in a space of quiet. Not running too"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2779.98,"endTime":2783.5,"body":"numb, not running to a coping mechanism,"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2783.5,"endTime":2786.86,"body":"but just being quiet without"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2787.58,"endTime":2790.06,"body":"this hurts before the Lord"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2791.9,"endTime":2795.42,"body":"and then possibly using a lament psalm to"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2795.42,"endTime":2799.22,"body":"speak to God from that place of"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2799.38,"endTime":2803.1,"body":"ouch, this hurts. It"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2803.1,"endTime":2806.66,"body":"goes without saying, but some people may"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2806.74,"endTime":2810.34,"body":"need to be reminded of this, that it's really"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2810.34,"endTime":2814.06,"body":"difficult, if not impossible, to just gain"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2814.06,"endTime":2817.62,"body":"a secure attachment with God, that we need community,"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2818.02,"endTime":2821.78,"body":"that we need others, that we need human eyes to see us,"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2822.26,"endTime":2825.86,"body":"especially in those places where we've not been attuned to and afraid. And that's the"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2825.86,"endTime":2829.39,"body":"power of. Of your groups. Is that what you're. You're creating a context of"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2829.39,"endTime":2833.19,"body":"safety? You're. You're giving them a curriculum,"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2833.19,"endTime":2836.71,"body":"for lack of a better term, and a path in which to do these"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2836.71,"endTime":2840.43,"body":"practices and experience Emmanuel. But we really do need"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2840.43,"endTime":2843.03,"body":"other people say a word about that as we come to a close."},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2843.83,"endTime":2847.27,"body":"100%. Yeah. The. The experience"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2847.75,"endTime":2851.07,"body":"of being in safe places where our"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2851.07,"endTime":2854.44,"body":"vulnerabilities can come to the surface and be safe seen,"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2854.84,"endTime":2858.6,"body":"where we can be seen and known and loved in that place"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2859.32,"endTime":2862.92,"body":"is absolutely vital for our."},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2863.24,"endTime":2866.8,"body":"Our healing, spiritual direction"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2866.8,"endTime":2869.96,"body":"groups, healing care groups, confessional"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2870.04,"endTime":2873.76,"body":"communities, as our friend Dr. Thompson talks"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2873.76,"endTime":2877.48,"body":"about. All of these things are ways in"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2877.48,"endTime":2881.08,"body":"which the Lord uses others"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2881.32,"endTime":2884.76,"body":"in order to build community and"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2886.82,"endTime":2889.06,"body":"to heal our attachment story."},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2890.66,"endTime":2894.1,"body":"Well, Summer Joy Gross, I want to thank you for this"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2894.1,"endTime":2897.78,"body":"conversation. It's been rich. It makes me hope that our paths cross."},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2897.94,"endTime":2901.74,"body":"Hope makes me hope that you continue to write books and that"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2901.74,"endTime":2905.54,"body":"I and others can benefit from them. But it's called the Emmanuel"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2905.54,"endTime":2909.34,"body":"Promise. I highly, highly recommend this for anybody who's on a"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2909.34,"endTime":2912.74,"body":"healing journey of any kind, if you want to deepen your"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2912.74,"endTime":2916.18,"body":"relationship with God and if you want to have deeper connections with others."},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2916.78,"endTime":2920.5,"body":"But also if you want to become yourself, if you want to"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2920.5,"endTime":2924.06,"body":"be able to live out of that true self that you were created to be."},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2924.94,"endTime":2928.74,"body":"So thank you so much for sharing your heart, your wisdom, and your"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2928.74,"endTime":2932.419,"body":"own journey today. Such a privilege, Michael. And"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2932.419,"endTime":2936.06,"body":"as you know, I've been listening to you and your podcast"},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2936.06,"endTime":2939.74,"body":"and really appreciating the work that you do for a long time."},{"speaker":"3","startTime":2940.38,"endTime":2941.42,"body":"Well, bless you."}]}