
Restoring the Soul with Michael John Cusick
Helping people become whole by cultivating deeper connection with God, self, and others. Visit www.restoringthesoul.com.
Restoring the Soul with Michael John Cusick
Episode 229 - Dr. Todd Hall, "The Connected Life”
“We’re loved into loving. That’s ultimately how we’re transformed.” - Dr. Todd Hall
It's no secret that we live in an increasingly isolated world. The pandemic has only exacerbated a startling trend: loneliness and disconnection have been on the rise for a long time in our society. We long for a deep sense of meaning to make sense of our lives, but we don't know how to find it. Even worse, we often search for it in unhealthy ways that hinder the very thing we're desperate for: genuine relational connection.
On today’s Restoring the Soul conversation, Michael welcomes psychologist Dr. Todd Hall of Biola University, who has been researching human relationships and ways of connecting for many years. His latest book, “The Connected Life,” offers the fruit of that work, contending that real human growth doesn't come through head knowledge alone but through relational knowledge and strong attachment bonds. It's our relationships―with God and others―that lead to authentic transformation. Ultimately, the family of God provides the best context for lasting growth.
If you want to receive 30% off of your copy of The Connected Life as well as free shipping, visit ivpress.com and use the code HALL 22. That’s ivpress.com and the code HALL 22 for 30% off and free shipping.
HELPFUL RESOURCES:
Aundi Kolber
Episode 110 - Aundi Kolber, "Try Softer, Part 1"
Episode 111 - Aundi Kolber, "Try Softer, Part 2"
Curt Thompson
Episode 65 - Dr. Curt Thompson, “Being Known, Part 1”
Episode 66 - Dr. Curt Thompson, “Being Known, Part 2”
Episode 122 - Dr. Curt Thompson, "Love and Lament During the Pandemic"
Episode 189 - Dr. Curt Thompson, "Anatomy of the Soul, Part 1"
Episode 190 - Dr. Curt Thompson, "Anatomy of the Soul, Part 2"
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Thanks for listening!
Hello and welcome to restoring the soul, a podcast dedicated to helping you close the gap between what you believe and what you actually experience on your producer Brian Beatty. Thank you for listening. Now, it's no secret that we live in an increasingly isolated world. The pandemic has only exacerbated a startling trend. Loneliness and disconnection have been on the rise for a long time in our society. We long for a deep sense of meaning to make sense of our lives. But we don't know how to find it. Even worse, we often search for it in unhealthy ways that hinder the very thing that we're desperate for genuine relational connection. And on today's restoring the soul, Michael, welcome, psychologist Dr. Todd Hall of Biola University has been researching human relationships and ways of connecting for many years. His latest book, The Connected life offers the fruit of that work, contending that real human growth doesn't come through head knowledge alone. But through relational knowledge and strong attachment bonds. It's our relationships with God and others that lead to authentic transformation. Ultimately, the family of God provides the best context for lasting growth. If you want to receive 30% off your very own copy of the connected life, as well as receive free shipping, visit IV pressed.com. And use the code haul 22. That's IV press.com. And the code H A L L two, two for 30%. off, and free shipping. So Now without any further delay, here's your host, Michael John Cusack. Dr. Todd Hall, I want to welcome you to the podcast. Thank you for being here. Thank you, Michael, and thrilled to be here. And just really excited about having this conversation. Well, as Brian, our producer said, at the top of the program, you have a brand new book out, you've written multiple books, one called the relational life, which you're known for, and this one's called the connected life, the art and science of relational spirituality. So first of all, congratulations on the new book. Thank you appreciate it. It's not a light work, but it's very, very accessible. And I say it's not light, because there's some really profound concepts that invite people to engage with their story. Yes, well, I appreciate you saying that, Michael, that was kind of the goal was, yeah, to bring, bring some research to the table, but also stories and make it very accessible in about this idea of relational spirituality. And you not only share interesting, compelling stories about different folks that you've worked with, as a psychologist and as a professor, but I really identified with being a latchkey kid, and growing up with some of the abandonment that you did. And so it takes a lot of courage to be a psychologist that does research and publishes and you're affiliated with Harvard flourishing project. So you know, you've got some academic chops, but you wrote about your own story, and why did you start there? Yeah, right, I think part of it was just to communicate the message that, you know, we all need to grow. And we all have a story. And relationships are central for spiritual growth for for everyone. And, you know, part of the message of the book, Michael, is that we grow primarily through relationships. I mean, that's probably the central message, one of the ways I put that in the book is that we're loved into loving. And so what that means is, you know, like, you just, you know, shared earlier about, you know, we're thankful for rational knowledge. And that's very important in studying theology, but we need more than that, right? So in one on one level, it doesn't. I can know a lot of things about God and I can have a lot of knowledge of psychology and theology and all these things, and I can still be struggling and immature and not growing. So, so yeah, my hope was telling my story would communicate that in a way that we all need to grow. And that would help connect with readers. And you told the story in that first chapter of growing up with with some attachment wounds and abandonment wounds and your mom left, and then you talked about in your spiritual life, how it really turned to striving and I want to read this sentence you said in the first chapter, I realized later that the pain and disconnection I felt in my relationship with God was linked to these formative childhood experiences. And then, you know, through college, you tried to overcome those. But I think people would see that the big title of your book the connected life, and say, Well, of course, you know, spirituality, whatever that is. And we don't define that, well, most of the time. And our Christian faith is about connections. But they don't understand that those earliest connections are actually part of what leads to true, freeing, joyful connection in our faith, or this constant sense of not measuring up or feeling like God is against us. Right, exactly. Right. So right, I do tell that story, Michael, that when I got to college and kind of hit this period of just real dryness and feeling very distant from God, and that's kind of when I started to realize, okay, well, these experiences with God of distance and disconnection really do tie back to my childhood. And that's kind of what sent me on this journey to, to study psychology and to get into therapy. And, you know, part of studying psychology was to try to figure myself out and heal myself. I think a lot of us have that kind of story, right? So yeah, there was a real struggle and disconnection there. In college, how did you come to crystallize your personal and professional worlds from an undergrad psychology all the way through your PhD at Rosemead School of Psychology. I just love to hear a little bit about that journey. Yeah, definitely. So yeah, I think I think that that distance I mentioned kind of drew me to psychology. I mean, one piece of it was a real blessing in that my pastor, the first church I got plugged into when I was growing up, well, actually the second church, but the first church, I really got, you know, very plugged into was a smallest church, couple 100 people, you know, got to know everybody kind of thing. So this was basically high school. And my pastor was a Biola graduate, and he encouraged me to think about psychology. So that was a real blessing. Because as you know, Michael, I mean, there's there's still some sections of the church that are hesitant about psychology and have concerns and 30 years ago, that was even stronger. Right. So that encouraged me to go into it. And I think, you know, I was kind of thinking, ministry, theology, or psychology, but when I got into psychology, it just felt like it started to answer some questions. And, you know, there was the striving you mentioned. And then, you know, as I went through grad school, I got into therapy, I did experience healing. And this is, this is something I share with my students a lot in grad school, they typically go through a similar journey, that it felt like psychology had these answers that God and the church didn't, because I experienced his deep growth in therapy that I had never experienced in the church, because it was addressing these attachment wounds, these deeper wounds that you mentioned. And so I think there was a period there where there was another split of, okay, I'm just going to really rely on psychology to help give me you know, kind of the real answer is about growth and life. And I'm not kind of sure how God and you know, scripture, you know, sort of fits into that. I know, it does, somehow. But you know, and I think over time, you know, that's what led me to kind of study and try to bring these two worlds together, and these two fields together. And that's ultimately what this book is about in relation to spirituality, the previous book is an academic book on that. I think what I realized over time to put in a nutshell is that all of these processes, in therapy and psychology that help us heal and grow, they don't belong, just to psychology, they're God's processes. This is how God created us to function, right? And these should be operating in the church. And that's really, you know, one of the impetuses for the book, Michael, is, I want to get this out to the church, to church leaders to understand you know, you don't have to have a PhD, every psychologist to be growing to understand how relationships work and the importance of them, right, and spiritual and emotional growth. You know, you talked about you had a chapter, I think it was the second chapter, or woven into the first chapter called The crisis of connection or the connection crisis. And you You made reference to a post pandemic culture, and what we've just come through in our world, on top of COVID, the fragmentation that disconnection, the contention, and the lack of unity. And again, people would kind of go well does, everybody knows that, but then you spell it out in in really significant way. So I'm curious if, while writing the book, you have seen a trend start to emerge especially with with younger folks in Generation Z and millennials where I see on social media, people that are not therapists. They're talking about attachment and they're talking about interpersonal neurobiology. And, and people are talking about internal family systems therapy and things like that. And there's been this kind of explosion of knowledge But that has trickled down from obscure neuroscience to folks like you that are doing research and collecting the research and and crystallizing it to conferences. And you know, mentioned before the interview that Kurt Thompson wrote the foreword, and the two of you do a lot of the same kind of thinking. And so it's trickling down. And I'm not so sure that it's getting to the church leaders, but it's getting to the people in the pews, so to speak. Right. Have you seen that? I have. Yeah, I think it's a great observation, Michael, I think definitely. And I think part of that is that, you know, we've seen mental health problems and issues just grow, right, and especially with a pandemic, but even before that, they were, you know, over the last, you know, bigger picture, 4050 years, that's kind of what I talked about in the you know, as the connection crisis, we've really seen an increase in mental health, anxiety, depression, you know, all these things. And then probably late 2000s, when the iPhone becomes ubiquitous, you know, there's some research that suggests that anxiety in depression really starts spiking, you know, particularly for young people. And that was not the case 50 years ago, you know, when we look at that data, so it does seem like there's been just an explosion of mental health issues on the COVID just really kind of was the icing on the cake, so to speak, in a negative sense with that, so I think, the benefit coming out of that, I mean, it's it's a very, you know, it's a horrible thing. It's very difficult, obviously, but I think it's opened the door for conversation that we weren't having a couple of years ago, you know, in, hopefully, in the church, I think that is growing. And in corporate America, you know, I do some work in that area as well. And corporations are talking about wellbeing and mental health. I mean, it is the and burnout. Those are the number one issues in corporate America. Right now, for employees and the church, there's a lot more discussion about we've got to address mental health issues in a new and different way, you know, for our people. Yeah, because they're taking a toll. If you have from the CEO on down, people whose relationships are falling apart, that's going to affect not just productivity, but everything about corporate culture, and people, people then being fed up or desperate and leaving their jobs and it all it all fits together, it really comes back to one person's soul having well being affects everything else doesn't. Right, definitely, definitely. I think, apart from the chapters about transformation, and how to cultivate growth, my favorite chapter was the misguided spirituality. And as a psychotherapist, myself, whenever somebody comes with a presenting problem or issue, there's always a misguided spirituality underneath that, because it's all connected. So talk about the types of misguided spirituality. Right, yeah, so I tell a little bit about my story with those that the striving you mentioned earlier. Yeah. So there's, you know, there's maybe more but I talked about sort of the, the Nike approach of, you know, just do it or you know, willpower. Knowing more intellectual, you know, spirituality, that's probably one that I camped out on quite a bit, and then kind of a spiritual high. So even though I kind of camped out on the intellectual spirituality, I definitely used all of those at different points in my young adult life. But the intellectual one, like I said, was really prominent. And so there was, there were points where, you know, as I look back, Michael, the I mean, I wasn't consciously aware of these strivings, you know, back then it took some growth and maturity later to look back and say, Okay, that's what was going on in my heart. But there really was a period where it just where I was sort of saying, If I can just learn everything there is to know about the Bible, then all this pain will go away. And everything will sort itself out. Right. And, you know, that didn't happen, as I mentioned in the book, and then it's spiritual high with camps, you know, trying to just strive after that. And, yeah, and then just just, you know, willpower trying harder, you know, that's a big one we use a lot. And I tried to point out that these methods are important. They're just not the whole picture. Right? It's just they can be disconnected from relationships. And and that's the way that can be misguided. It really has to do with our motives underneath and my motivation underneath at that point, yeah, as a young adult, you know, that I mentioned in the book was, it was to push the pain away. And, you know, somehow cope with that pain, it really wasn't to grow closer to God. Right? Or it was the best that you knew how at that time to grow closer to God, but it was really a futile attempt at connection where you put all of your energy and focus but it couldn't give you what it was that you want it because it never addressed the underlying issue. Exactly. Right. Right. Yes. Strategy coping strategy that we learn in early attachment relationships, right. That always cost right. You know, you said earlier, Todd, that in the process in college, you discovered that psychology was bringing answers that at the time I'm Christianity didn't seem to be and I can sure relate to that. It also feels like psychology and sometimes other sciences or soft sciences. They're not just providing answers, but they're actually asking questions that Christians don't often ask. And that's what I appreciate about your book is you bring together the questions and put to words, the questions that people are asking intuitively, like, what do I do with this emptiness inside of me? What do I do with my exhaustion because I'm tired of just trying to be the super Christian, and to find that relationship with God that I've always longed for? And then real answers that are a combination of art, science, the art of spirituality, and then the Bible and theological truths as well. Right, right. Yeah. Right. The Bible and theology sort of lays the groundwork and the parameters, if you will, for how we should grow. And then psychology really helps to flush that out quite a bit. But I think they really are ultimately, consistent. And helps us to understand this idea that we yeah, we grow through relationships, we got to get ourselves in relationships, and community. And one of the ways I describe it, you know, in the book, Michael, is that we're loved into loving, that's ultimately how we are transformed. I no pun intended, but I love that phrase. It's just so it's so it resonates deeply with me, and I think with people, but it's so simple. And at the end of the day, this is very complex, but it's really simple to get to the heart of it that we're loved and to loving. So if we can kind of hit pause, I'd like you to define three terms. The subtitle is the art and science of relational spirituality. So first of all, can you define spirituality? And then talk about the science that's in your book? And then talk about the art? Yeah, so I mean, the way I define or think about relational spirituality, particularly is, is very simply growing in love for God and others. That that is the ultimate goal of sanctification. And again, it is quite simple in a way, it's difficult to do, right. It's a lifelong process. But I think that's really what scripture points to. And also, I think the best of psychology points to that. And that's, that was part of my journey of sort of wrestling with this in grad school is how do we PCs together, and they both seem to point to that. So then you ask the art and science was, so that the science part just describe a little bit about like, the influences of interpersonal neurobiology, some of your own research, because you've done a lot with positive psychology and flourishing, and then also kind of how this how the art of it plays out? Yeah. And attachment. Yeah, so So I think, you know, some of the most interesting aspects of the science from you mentioned, you know, interpersonal biology, and and I go into much more depth, by the way, in the relation spirituality book, on this. Probably one of the big ideas that comes from, you know, sort of neuroscience, there's a whole area of Affective Neuroscience looking at how does the brain process emotion. And, you know, 50 years ago, that was not an area, that was actually a death knell for researchers to try to get a grant in that area. So you know, what we've learned through that is that there's this form of implicit or gut level memory, that records our experiences in relationships. And that becomes kind of a code, if you will, for how relationships work. And so on attachment theory, we call this internal working models. And that, so we have, you know, our early relationships with attachment figures, those experiences get recorded in this gut level kind of memory that's outside of conscious awareness. And then it becomes like a template, or I call it an attachment filter. Because, you know, we see through a filter, we don't see the filter, usually, right? So it influences at a gut level, what we expect of close relationships. So if there's been abuse or trauma, for example, with authority figures, and we see this with clients all the time, right, they come in to see us, we're an authority figure, those same expectations are operating at a subconscious level, you're an authority figure, you're not going to genuinely care about me, you're going to leave at some point, right? And so under. So I think that's a big thing, that the science really helps us understand this idea of implicit memory. I talked about some things as the implicit self, you know, that sort of drives, how we experience and how we relate. So yeah, that's when you know, so implicit memory and the neuroscience behind that as a big piece. And then attachment theory, as I mentioned, is a big piece which helps us understand that we, we do become attached that we need relationships, and again, I think theology undergirds that right I think from Scripture Should we see that that we, as I put it, we're created to connect. And I draw that from a kind of Trinitarian model, you know, in theology and scripture. But psychology really bears that out, as we would expect, right that we are created to connect it. And so there's a lot of areas in science that sort of point to this, and I talk about a little bit in this book and more in relation to spirituality, for example, infant research shows that infants are born very relational from day one, and even in utero. That's sort of a finding that, you know, I think, started to emerge in the 1970s 1980s. Before that, there was a kind of the typical view was that infants are not relational attachment theory, as I mentioned, has really, you know, that says, you know, that's a huge area in psychology. And so that's helped us understand that we, that we need relationships, to grow and develop properly. I wanted, I want to just thank you and interject that I wrote about John John Bowlby as the father of attachment theory. And a lot of people who have read about this know that but what I didn't know, and I love biographies, was that bopis theory emerged, as you explained it out of his own attachment wounds, where he was in an upper class, British British Home, who typically had a nanny, wet nurse. And then at four years old, the nanny left, and then it was a kind of nanny friend, as, as opposed to the actual nanny. And so with your story, and certainly my story to that the interest and your vocation, came out of this kind of wound. And it's fascinating to me how many times that happens with different theorists and authors? Definitely. Yeah, me too. I think it's so helpful and important to understand where a theorist comes from, and what their story is, because it usually does kind of drive what they what they get into, and what's meaningful and important to them. And that definitely was the case with with Bowlby and that actually kind of supports the whole theory, this is about right, that these, these deep relational experiences, we have the former implicit self drives, how we relate to drives what's important and meaningful to us. And yeah, Bowlby had this, you know, really abandonment of a mother, his primary maternal mother figure, abandoned him. And so he really set out to prove, you know, scientifically, that these that this relationship mattered. So he did research on maternal deprivation, and started to show this mattered. And, you know, nowadays, it's sort of like, okay, we know that, right. But in the 1940s, and 50s, the typical sort of Freudian view was, you know, these relationships don't don't really impact us that much. It's not that big a deal. But now, we know through a lot of science, in these different areas, I've mentioned that they matter hugely, they impact our brain development or development for relationships. I mean, it's, uh, you know, early attachment predicts outcomes in almost every area of life, how people do in school, peer relationships, relationships with, you know, teachers and authority figures, overall, well being physical health, all these things. Yeah, it's really amazing, that it's the, it's the genesis of so much that develops in our body. It's also fascinating with Bowlby as you, as you talked about how people have a filter, and we see everything through that filter, that that can be a positive filter, as well. So out of the unpleasant and wounding experience of that major attachment wound, that the wound actually affects the questions that we asked. And Bowlby may not have done the research that he did and propose the theory without that particular story. Right, right. So we need wounded healers in the body of Christ to be able to ask the questions about how that integration and wholeness happens. Exactly right. Right to develop secure attachment, we write the kind of the positive experiences. Yeah, and I think I think wounded. Being a wounded healer does. Obviously there's pain involved in that, but it God uses that pain, right to help us to be empathic with what others are going through. Yeah, I digressed, I interrupted you, but come back to the part about the art of spirituality because you talked a little about science. Yeah, yeah. So So there, right, there's his broad kind of scientific base, and the art really has to do with just, you know, the art of loving other people, right? So I do I have a couple chapters on love and talk about just the art of love and the art of relationships and kind of the basic ideas and spiritual growth, right, there's no, there's no manual for how to do that. There are principles and their guidelines, but there's no manual that can just tell us exactly how to live our lives or relate to others and help others grow and, you know, help ourselves grow. But there are kind of guidelines, but there is definitely an art to it, that involves empathy, you know, emotional attunement, being able to track what other people are feeling, and at an emotional level and be responsive to that and that comes from, you know, this idea, again, that we're loved into loving comes from experiences, ultimately transformation happens through having new relational experiences that are positive and loving that challenge in a positive way these old, you know, scripts, if you will, about how relationships work. And that's what begins to shift this deep internal implicit self and develop, you know, secure attachment. And yeah, there's an art to, to doing that. And so knowing what somebody needs at a particular time, we overuse this word, and we'd have to define it carefully. And specifically here, but community, that without connection without loving, safe, secure relationships, there really is no transformation, there is no deep growth, and you make the distinction in your book about deep growth. So talk a little bit about what that deep growth is, versus going to church faithfully and having a great knowledge of the Bible. Right, so it comes back down to these two ways of knowing that I talked about right. So there's explicit knowledge or head knowledge, and then implicit relational knowledge, which is, you know, gut level type of knowledge. And, yeah, deep growth involves changing this implicit knowledge or heart level knowledge, whatever want to call it, right, there's a lot of terms for it, I'm not the first one to talk about it, for sure. But deep growth involves changing that changing these internal working models, these, you know, implicit scripts, if you will, or gut level expectations, right about how relationships, work, and how they're going to play out based on past experiences. So those new experiences kind of help to shift those, as opposed to, you know, a more superficial growth, we can, you know, we can learn things about God, by going to church. And again, that's important. But it has to, it has to translate and sink into our heart into this implicit knowledge. So it's a starting point. Sometimes I'll use the language of some of the mystics, like Teresa of Avila, where they make a distinction between believing and knowing. And it might be thought of as left brain and right brain, but somebody will say to me, Well, you know, how did you come to that conclusion about God or about your faith? And I'll say, I just did I just know, you know, I didn't, I didn't seek it out. I didn't say one day, this is what I believe. But it's just something deeply internal, that somebody might say, I disagree. But then I don't feel a compulsion to have to get into an argument because I didn't, I didn't arrive at it on my own, and I can't and arrive at it on my own. Is that what you mean by implicit explicit? Right, exactly. Right. It's a, it's a deep knowing this implicit, knowing that at a gut level in your heart, that's not yet it's not just kind of knowing conceptually, something, and one of the things I talked about in the book is the, you know, these two ways of knowing have to work together. And so I call it the knowledge spiral. And they're sort of a top down and a bottom up integration. And so one of those is feeling and idea. And that's this, you know, conceptual knowledge sort of sinking down into our heart. So, yeah, we go to church, we hear sermons, we get a lot of great teaching. And that's important, because we have to understand how God wants us to live, right, what his standards are, what, what we should be striving for, but it has to sink down into our hearts. And we have to feel those ideas that happens through relationships through those experiences and stories. Yeah, so because you're a psychologist, and we'll, we'll make the caveat here, the nobody's doing professional therapy here. I have had, literally in the last three months 15 to 20 conversations with friends, family and clients who have said, and I'm sure you hear this all the time, I believe in God, I've been faithful to him, I seek him I read my Bible. Or maybe not, maybe it's somebody who's in the process of deconstruction, as we say, but I have felt my entire life like God is out there. And that he is separate from me, and that I I never have felt him or experienced him. And so if somebody was sitting having coffee with you, or sitting in your, your academic office, or if you're counseling them, what are the categories with which you would respond to them? Yeah, so I mean, I think I would want to, you know, explore that and maybe help to tie that back to your earlier experiences with parents and important people in their life. You know, much like my story that we referred to earlier, right, that that there's chances are there's a connection, you know, with earlier experiences, or be more recent experiences of abandonment or trauma or something like that, that has led to it being very difficult to experience God especially in a loving way and experiencing God is more distant. threw out there, like you said, so you know, I mean, I think, like any good relationship or therapy, I want to be empathic and normalize that there's, there's always good reasons for why people feel what they do. And I tell my students all the time, that's, you know, 80 to 90% of what I do in therapy is normalizing experiences and writing. But, you know, trying to do that in hopefully relatively accurate way. Yeah, that it's not pathological that they experienced God on the outside, but there's a reason for it. And that that reason gives a sense of understanding, there's not something fundamentally wrong with me. Right. And to this point, I mean, so the way I would view it, Michael, is that's the starting point for growth, right? So some spiritual leaders, you know, and maybe therapists, I don't know, but you know, might come in and think like, Okay, this is, this is a problem. And we need to kind of just bypass this and sort of talk the person out of it and convince them like, well, that's not really accurate. God actually is near we know that from scripture, right? And again, that's the difference between the two ways of knowing, yes, we do know, God is near in a certain sense, right. But experience is a it's a different code, it's a different language, if you will, emotions, and it has to be honored. And if that's what we need to change, for true deep growth, then we have to start with that, and create space for that. So that's really what you know, what I'm trying to do a lot in therapy is, and it really is amazing to me how much you know, so little can go so far, just creating emotional space. And I use that language a lot with clients that it's okay, it's normal, there are reasons you feel that let's just pause and slow down and create space for that, that opens up the door to understanding and transformation. As if there's if there's nowhere else in your life where you can be exactly who you are, that in that hour of therapy, that you can be exactly who you are. And that that's, that's a microcosm of how God is with us. I think we'd be on the same page with this. And that's not the point. But just to articulate this for listeners, because the feedback for our podcast has been that there's a lot of people who listen who have deconstructed or are in the process of deconstructing or they've they've, they've used that language. And I went through that, although I didn't call it deconstructing. I called it a very painful growth spurt. But leaders are talking about how, as you said, we need to we need to help people, do more apologetics and get the answers and that kind of thing. And I see it as just a crisis of attachment and a crisis of connection. And that your book, and the books that have a similar emphasis. There's a book that came out recently called attached to God by Crispin Mayfield. And that that book looks at all the underpinnings Kurt Thompson's writings that as we understand these things, we're giving not just permission for experience versus left brain are explicit knowledge, but we're giving a framework. And I'm just seeing people go, Oh, my gosh, this is this is reading my mail, so to speak. And then it's, and then it's leading people to therapy, or communal groups or something like that, where they can have that experience of being known in such a profound way. Right, right. Yeah, no, I'm definitely seeing similar experiences. And I mean, one of those that comes to mind is teaching recently in a Doctor of Ministry program, on relationship, spirituality, and several of the people in that program, you know, the reason they got into the program, is they kind of hit a wall, where they realized that, you know, they could do all this, you know, teaching and great knowledge and that kind of thing. But if it's not really leading to deep transformation in the people that they're serving and ministering to, and if people aren't living, compelling lives, it's not going to really go anywhere. And so they they hit this wall and kind of realize they feel stuck, and they're not quite sure where to go. And then the lights start to come on about like, okay, attachment. And these, you know, early experiences do impact how I experienced God and of course, the people I'm working with, I don't know if you're familiar with the book, try softer by Andi Kolbert, she's a friend of ours here at restoring soul lives in Colorado. And we recently had a conversation and she said, All theology is attachment. And I know there's probably a lot of PhDs in Old Testament or theology or Biblical studies that would shake their head and say, What do you mean by that? But if you go back to what you said about the Trinity, I think that's a pretty good one liners that all theologies attachment, if, in fact, God is relational. Right, right. Yeah. And I do, I really do. Try to kind of develop that theme in relation to spirituality and just sort of assume it in the connected life. That yeah, that a Trinitarian. God is intrinsically relational. And I think that is what helps us understand what it means to be creating the image of God. You know, I think there's multiple facets to that. But I think the central one is that we are relational beings, you know. And so the way I put in this book is just, you know, we're created to connect. And we see that in so many ways in science now and attachment theory. And, I mean, one of the things I talked about in the book that's so striking that Bowlby, you know, as part of all these work is, you know, these orphans and kids who were put in foundling homes back in the 1940s, and 50s. And they didn't allow attachment figures, parents to sort of have much contact, because, you know, one, there was fear of germs, you know, and to there was the just, the kids would get upset when the kid when the parents would come visit, and then they would leave, the kids would get upset. And that was kind of a pain to deal with. So I thought, let's just not let the parents visit very often, right. And so there's research that shows 10 to 20% of these kids actually died. In his family homes, even though they were you know, they had plenty of food and shelter. So it just shows, you know, at a very deep level, we need relationships to grow and thrive. You wrote a chapter called we know more than we can say, and I so appreciated that because you had in your references, Malcolm Gladwell is blink, which is one of my favorite books, yes idea of, of knowing without knowing. And you write this sentence, and I love you for you to unpack it, it says that there's often an idea that our relationship with God is of a qualitatively different type than our human relationships. And so we say, oh, god vile, thou art Almighty and that kind of thing. And we put on a different voice, we use different language. But when Jesus taught us to pray, ABA, our father, our daddy, it was an invitation. It's something more intimate. So talk about how you think about and work with people about how, Yes, God is categorically different, because He's holy. But that there's there's something about it's meant to be that same way, like a loving parent with a secure child. Right. Right. Right. I think at one level, we do see in Scripture, like you pointed out, Michael, that that God intends for this, you know, God wants a close, intimate relationship. And that's what he's been working toward ever since the fall to make that possible and to and to foster that. So I think, yeah, that's, you know, he really does want that. And then the other point with that sentence, I think, is that in the church, oftentimes, we have this idea, like I said, and it's, it's probably not always a conscious, you know, idea or thought or something that's, you know, taught explicitly from the pulpit. But this idea that there's sort of a psychological part is dealing with human relationships. And then there's a spiritual part that deals with God. And so all of our humaneness and messiness, we can kind of set that aside when it comes to God for some reason, because he is categorically different. But on our side, we bring all of our humaneness to our relationship with God. And there's not two separate parts of us there, right, there's a unity of our personality. And that's why, you know, there's research in attachment theory to suggest that we tend to experience God in ways that are similar to our human attachment figures, because it's using the same human equipment, you know, when we relate to God, or emotions, or experiences, our implicit memory, all these things. And this is all tied such a compassionate understanding and view. Because if we think about, you know, something as specific as that we bring all of the same neural networks to God that we do to our relationship where there's a person that irritates us, or if we, if we're locked up in knots in our chest, or our shoulders because of how we carry stress in our body, and we've never learned how to, to rest physically, emotionally, spiritually, we're going to bring that to God. And if we understand that it's physiological, that it's scientific, that it's medical, we, for me, and those that I know, it's opened up the sense of, oh, that's why, and it helps me to be compassionate to myself. And it helps me to understand that God is not looking down on me going, why haven't you gotten your act together? Right, exactly. Yeah, that's, I mean, that's something I talk about with my students all the time, as well, you know, as well as clients that yeah, part of the point of understanding some of the neuroscience and things like that behind it, in implicit memory, for example, is to develop compassion, right to understand that we and, and this is part of the importance of self awareness, right to understand that I operate the same way as everyone else, you know, and my clients i There are parts of me that I'm not aware of that operate outside of the confines of consciousness that come from these early relationships. And that's also true for my you know, everyone else and my students and clients and so on. When challenges come up, and difficulties come up, that helps me to have compassion, like you said, to understand that these things take time to change, they take new experiences, a lot of the times, it's not intentional, you know. And it's just, it's the way we are wired. Seems like one of the less talked about aspects of the incarnation is that when when God put on flesh, that it's meant to help us accept our humanity, and to embrace that, as opposed to, I need to become less human, in the spiritual growth and back to this idea that we, we don't relate to God differently than we relate to others. And so if we're not relating to God out of our actual humanity, then we can't really grow. Right? Right. Right. I think spiritual growth involves exactly becoming more human, fully human, you know, I mean, Jesus is the example right of the full human, a perfect human. And so he's the model. But so I think we want to become more fully human and more our unique selves that He created us as well, the healthiest version of ourselves. So let's end on this Todd, and I'm so grateful for your time, as well as just all the work that you've done to, to put out this material. someone's listening to this podcast, and they go, Wow, I'm going to Amazon on my app, I'm ordering the book, it comes in two days, but in the 48 hours, between listening to the podcast and getting the book, or maybe it maybe it's 12 hours, who knows, depending on where you live, they say, okay, what can I do right now to cultivate spirituality. And I, and I'd be shocked if you say, here's a list of seven things to do. But to, to be loved into loving to cultivate this deep growth? What's What's something that like, somebody can do in the moment? Yeah, so I think one thing would be to think about what is the next step you can do to cultivate a healthy, safe relationship, that on a human level, on a human level, right, that is, you know, kind of the soil for for growth. And there's always steps that we can take, we can again, you know, like I said earlier, there's no formula, we can't magically make it happen. But there's always things we can do. So you know, maybe that's reaching out to that friend, it might be opening up a little bit more than you're comfortable with a particular person, there's usually a next step that we can take to cultivate a relationship, that, you know, there's mutually safe, where people can grow. And so obviously, we need to be safe people as well. And so we want to do our part on that end, as well. And maybe so maybe that's it, maybe it's, uh, well, somebody reached out to me and I didn't really respond well, a friend or didn't get back to them. So maybe that's my next step is I need to reach out and respond to that person. And, yeah, to build that relationship. I'd love how you responded. And it actually caught me a little off guard, because in my mind, I was thinking, you know, sitting in their car with the windows rolled up, and they're, they're at a stoplight, and they do centering prayer for 10 seconds or something like that, you know, but but there again, that's this false dichotomy about I have to do something toward or for God, or that is explicitly spiritual, as opposed to, I'm going to call a friend, as opposed to being isolated. And that that's, that's a risk, that's growth, that's vulnerability, and that growth actually is spiritual, and then somehow begins to cultivate something that would then transfer over to God. Right, right. And the same thing would apply, you know, it could be bringing some difficulties to God in prayer, you know, opening up more, you know, the other father, like you talked about, so right, so this operates with, both with God and with with other people. And there's, like you said, there's no, it's relationship, both ways. We bring our whole self to both of those relationships and need to cultivate and figure out the next step to grow in relation with God as well as people but as we know, and that's a big message of the book that God because we're relational beings, God chooses to use the body of Christ and relationships to help us grow. So we are a very real part of God's plan a to help each other grow. I love that. Well, thank you for your time. today. We're going to be talking this book up and through university presses your publisher reader, we're also going to make a special offer to our listeners. So really appreciate your time today. I hope someday our pas get to cross. Definitely me too. Thank you so much, Michael. It's been great to be on and I really appreciate your insights and time as well. So thank you for listening to another episode of restoring the soul. We want you to know that at restoring the soul is so much more than a podcast. What we're all about is helping couples and individuals get unstuck. You know how some people go to counseling or marriage therapy for months or even years and never really get anywhere? Our intensive programs help clients get unstuck in as little as two weeks. To learn more visit restoring the soul.com That's restoring the soul.com