Episode 322 - Julianne & Michael John Cusick, "Exploring Neurodiversity in Marriage"

In today's enlightening episode of "Restoring the Soul with Michael John Cusick," we delve into the intricate world of neurodiverse marriages. Join Michael and Julianne Cusick as they explore the challenges and dynamics couples face when one or both partners are on the autism spectrum. With Michael openly sharing his diagnosis of high-functioning Asperger's and Julianne bringing her expertise as a certified neurodiverse couples coach and licensed marriage and family therapist, this episode promises deep insights and practical advice. 

Learn about the common themes in neurodiverse relationships, the unique struggles and rewards, and the transformative power of understanding and tailored coaching. Whether navigating a neurodiverse marriage yourself or simply seeking to broaden your understanding, this episode is packed with valuable content and hopeful perspectives. Tune in and discover how embracing neurodiversity can pave the way for healthier, more fulfilling relationships.

Transcript

0:00

Welcome to another episode of restoring the soul. I'm Michael John Cusick, and I'm here with my bride of 32 years, Julianne Cusik. And today we're talking about neurodiverse marriages. I've shared that six years ago I was diagnosed on the autism spectrum with high functioning Asperger's. And today we're going to talk about what that looks like in a marriage, kind of going outside of the context of my struggle and our marriage to what this looks like in general for couples. So, Julianne, you are a certified neurodiverse couples coach on top of being a licensed marriage and family therapist. And so I want you today, so that others can understand and potentially be helped for you to share your expertise. Wow. Well, thank you, Michael. Appreciate that. It's always great to be here in the studio with you. And I'm really passionate and about understanding neurodiversity because it's a lens of understanding and often misunderstood, undiagnosed, overlooked. I hate to say diagnosis, but, yeah, it's often misunderstood and misdiagnosed. So I'm excited to be here today to talk about this and try and unpack a little bit about what it means to be in a neurodiverse marriage. We have talked about neurodiversity in our marriage. When you are working with a couple, do people come to you and say, we have neurodiverse issues? One of us is on the autism spectrum, or is it something that you kind of discover along the way with people? So people have not come in looking for this, you know, diagnosis or framework of understanding. Folks come in because they've got marriage issues. Right? Just like you and I, we were in couples counseling for years. And this framework of neurodiversity is often missed because folks on the spectrum, especially adult folks on the spectrum, many times they are successful, brighten, gifted. I've heard individuals say, I feel like I'm a success in every area of my life except my marriage. And so people come in, and there's oftentimes common themes of things like past trauma, because folks that are neurodiverse tend to have had trauma. It's not necessary. But a lot of times it has happened either in kids when they were children or in their adult life. You certainly have had trauma as a child. And so it's like peeling a. Peeling back an onion, you know, it's layer by layer. We work on the trauma, we work on addiction, we work on all of these things. And then what's left when that's still not making sense. And couples counseling isn't working, then we start looking at, okay, what are we missing here? And so start looking under the hood to see what's going on. And there's usually kind of some themes that start to emerge, some comments or feelings that are really pretty common for the neurotypical partner as well as for the neurodiverse partner. And then thirdly, the issues in the marriage, they start to resonate. They start to sound similar. And so when I meet with couples, which I love doing, Michael, one of the things that you didn't enjoy doing as a kid was the hidden pictures. Find the hidden objects. And for me, I loved that. And much of my work with couples is like that. I see myself as an investigator. I'm trying to get to know each individual, and I'm trying to get to know their marriage dynamic. And so I just start digging and looking under the hood, like I said, because I don't want to miss something with clients. And so I'd rather rule out the potential of neurodiversity, because if it's there and I miss it, I'm doing a great disservice to clients. And this happens over and over and over again because people are so high functioning. They can maintain eye contact, they can be verbal, they have emotions. So there's so much stereotype out there that I would really love to be a part of debunking and demything. And so what happens is people are here because they've got these other marital issues. And then there's this familiarity that starts to happen. There's this kind of knowing that I have. Like, things start to sound very familiar, and oftentimes I will ask certain questions to gain deeper understanding. And then what starts to emerge is, hey, let me throw this out. Let me throw you this framework that I'm thinking and just see if it makes sense, right? And if it does, we'll dig a little further. And if it doesn't make sense, great. We've ruled this out, and we can move on to other things. And it's so important because, really, when neurodiversity is present, many times traditional couples work isn't successful. And to some extent, Michael, you and I have experienced this. We had some really, really, really good therapy, individually and even together. But we just kept hitting these speed bumps that we just couldn't seem to navigate. And it was very frustrating. It was very confusing. I think at times we both struggled with really feeling hopeless. And is this ever going to get better? And why is this happening? And I think you're the enemy. And you think I'm the enemy and just hitting this wall. And so when neurodiversity is present, we don't do traditional couples work. We actually pivot and we actually do more coaching. So there's a more psycho educational and coaching approach that's used. And part of that is just creating this framework of understanding that this difference in perception and behavior isn't that this person is against, which sometimes it can really feel that way. Certainly has for me. You know, you haven't been against me. You just have a different perception. And so what does it mean to check for understanding? What does it mean to create a shared language? So many times in a neurodiverse couple relationship and in ours, we felt like we were speaking two different languages. But what we've done over the last number of years is create this shared language, and it's like these tracks on which the train of our relationship can then run more smoothly. That's a lot of great content. I want to come back to something you said, and you said that as you have these hunches or things start to feel familiar. You hear from the neurotypical spouse, which is often, not always, but often a woman. And the husband is the neurodiverse. But you talked about an experience, common experience of the neurotypical. Talk about some of that. What's going on inside of the neurotypical? So I want to just say men and women, each can have neurodiversity. It tends to be a little bit more common in men. It does look different in men and in women, much like depression looks different in men versus women. Usually the neurotypical partner, if it is in fact, the wife, she's feeling missed relationally, like her emotional needs aren't getting met. She's confused, she's frustrated. She thinks that there's something wrong with her. Like, why is marriage so hard and so difficult? And she may even feel like her husband, you know, is angry, might have. She might use the word I narcissistic. Like, he's very narcissistic or he's self centered. So there's this inner pain that actually both parties are feeling, and I have witnessed and experienced myself that the neurotypical partner does tend to think something's wrong with me. So they struggle with kind of worn down feeling, worn down, having worn down self esteem, might have some depression, might have some anxiety, and they're confused. Like, things just don't make sense. Many times wives will say, he's gaslighting me. We've heard a lot. It's kind of a buzzword now, gaslighting, and the impact can feel like being gaslit, but it's not the intent of the other person. So we're having to not look at just the surface of the behavior, dig down underneath, and see what's the motivation, what's the heart of the person. Yeah, that's just some of the common themes. Another thing that happens is couples will come in, and maybe one of their kids is struggling, and that's a presenting problem that they bring in with them. Either could be add, ADHD, some learning disabilities, you know, they're getting bullied, or maybe they've just been. Their kid has been diagnosed on the spectrum. You know, we start unpacking that, and we do know that genetically, there is a link, or neurologically, I should say there is a link, that neurodiversity can be genetic. And so sometimes we see it in family lines for you and I, you know, one of the things, as you started to see this understanding of yourself differently, we started to talk about how your dad was probably undiagnosed on the spectrum his entire life, you know, and some of the unique challenges that he came up against. But he had, like, such great depth and knowledge in his areas of special interest, you know, jazz, right. You know, he was an aa for decades, and he went very deep in those things. You know, it's usually like something doesn't add up. There's this sense of two and two is not equaling four. It's either equaling three or is equaling five, but it's not equaling four. So let's get down to real specifics. What are the characteristics? Or. I know that our coach for neurodiversity has said, if you've met one person on the autism spectrum, you've met one person that it's not like if you met one, you've met them all. So, what are common characteristics of a person with neurodiversity, and especially with Asperger's or with autism, as opposed to more the ADHD variety? Yeah. Well, I want to just say on the onset terms can be really confusing. So autism is one end of the spectrum, and nonverbal learning disorder would be the other end of the spectrum. And so it encompasses a lot. For our sake here, we're just going to be talking about neurodiversity regardless of the terms that we're using. So it's any kind of neurodifference. It would be great if I said, hey, here are ten things to look for that'll tell you if you're neurodiverse. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way, and that's what makes it so hard to accurately get, like a diagnosis. The other thing is, a lot of times people are neurodiverse, but they're not going to meet the DSM criteria for a diagnosis of autism spectrum disorder. And so is there really a diagnosis for neurodiversity? No, it's more of a framework of understanding. So, broadly, I can say there's a cluster of other diagnoses and a cluster of symptoms of that are common. But not having one of these doesn't mean you are or aren't neurodiverse, or having some of these doesn't necessarily mean you are or aren't neurodiverse. And so it's more art than science. Some of the common, like DSM, diagnosable things that can be related or better understood through the understanding of neurodiversity, or ASD, are things like mood disorder, depression, anxiety, additive ADHD, impulsivity, compulsivity, and things like sleep disorders, sensory integration disorder, and food issues like picky eaters having trouble with the sensory aspect of food, or the smell of different foods, or smell, in general, different scents. The other thing can be sound, real sensitivity to loud sound. Some of the other kind of common traits really will be seen in the interpersonal relationship because of masking, which is, hey, I'm watching you and I'm learning how to fit in in youth group or fit in at the job. The further away people are from a neurodiverse individual, the more neurotypical that person appears. What happens is the closer people get to that individual, and the closest person is usually that intimate partner or a parent. The closer we get to that person, then we start to see the masking breaks down, and we don't know what it's like to be this close right up against one another, so to speak, relationally, emotionally. And that's where things start to break down and not make sense. So a neurotypical partner may say something like, well, I don't understand how he can be this way at work or at church, but with me he's different. That's kind of a clue. That would be a symptom, high IQ, but challenges, maybe showing that IQ. And sometimes it's not the struggle, but it's actually the success. So we have to look at both sides of the coin. Social anxiety. Some people will be like, oh, you know, Michael Cusick has social anxiety. No way. He's so funny. He's so extroverted. He just loves people. And yet underneath, you've confided in me that even going to church, sometimes you can feel anxious, and that can be another characteristic or trait of somebody on this. What about issues with empathy and the neurodiverse person, being able to empathize and understand the other person's perspective, that's a. Big area of breakdown. Many times, the neurodiverse individual may say the right thing, but the neurotypical partner doesn't feel like they mean it, which is pretty crazy making, right? You're saying to me, oh, honey, I'm so sorry. And it sounds pretty perfunctory, pretty matter of fact. Neurotypical people like to talk, just to talk, to engage, to connect. But many times, neurodiverse individuals, they see talking as a way of just giving out information. And so there's one word conversations. How are you today? Fine. How was your day? Fine. And, you know, and the partner's like, well, I kind of want to know, like, what your day was like. And, you know, unpack it. And the person is like, you know, it was fine. Like, there's nothing else to say. So this. This empathy, it's not that they don't care. There's like a clog in the pipe, if you will. They can appear uncaring. They can sound uncaring. They can sound disingenuous. Right. To their partner. And so that's another very common dynamic is, you know, he says the right things, but I don't feel like he means it. Yeah. Another one is this misnomer, for lack of a better word, or misunderstanding, that people on the spectrum don't have feelings. That is so not true. They do have feelings. They have a lot of feelings. They can even have really intense feelings. The breakdown is they're not. They're usually not able to process those feelings or understand those feelings or know what to do with those feelings. And so there's, like, irritability and moodiness, and maybe there's anger or this emotional shutdown, and it's like, am I getting the silent treatment here? No. The person has just reached their capacity of their own overload, and now they kind of have to shut down to recharge, much like, you know, I've got to shut down my. My laptop and let it recharge because I've overused it. Folks on the spectrum can be very, very high functioning, gifted, successful. But then when they're off duty, they like to need to zone out with a game or a tv show or put their headphones on, or they need to hyper focus on a hobby or special interest, because that's what recharges them. You know, along those lines. One of the things that we learned was this idea of a neurological budget. And as an extrovert, I get energized by being around other people and being outside of the home. And yet I was always confused, because then I found myself needing to have solitude at home. And it's not the classic introvert extrovert, but what happens is that I have a pretty sensitive neurological budget, and if I'm too overstimulated or if there's too much intensity or if I get too tired, then I have very little capacity to engage relationally with anything. That requires a lot of me. That's something that was really helpful. Just as an example of this. Yes. Neurological budget, even an emotional budget. So, hey, I've held it together all day at school or at work, and then I come home, and I've got no emotional budget. So we see this a lot in kids where they hold it together at school. They're functioning, they're high performing, and then they get home, and they have these epic meltdowns, right? They're crying, they're raging, they can't do their homework. They're just so emotionally dysregulated and distressed. And it's like, I don't get it. Well, as adults, we do the same thing. We're just a little better at masking it, right? So you give, give, give all day long, and then you come home and you disappear, and I'm like, where did Michael go? And so one of the things we've worked on is you just checking in with me to say, hey, I need to decompress, right? We have some language we've built around that, and you just go in your man cave, and you disappear for an hour. And so I know what that means, and I'm not going, like, you know, where did he go? Is he mad at me? You know, he disappeared again. So, yeah, so there's this neurological tank, if you will, but there's also emotional. So, like, when you and I are talking and, you know, you can just handle so much of my emotional intensity because I have a lot sometimes, and you can do so much of it, but then it's like you hit your limit, so that comes to mind. And then communication. So there can be kind of a double standard. Sometimes it feels like a double standard, where the neurodiverse individual is telling the story, and they're telling lots of details. They've got rabbit trails. Is this sounding familiar at all to our own relationship? It is. And then, you know, I'll get lost in all of that and say, you know, hey, what do you most want me to know? So you'll have a lot of words. But then if I want to tell a story and I have a lot of words, you know, then it's like, no, no, no. Too many words. Just tell me what you want. Tell me what you need. And that can feel really abrupt and really kind of disorienting of, well, I just listened to you talk, and I now I want to talk, but you've got it all used up already. So those kind of things, you know, these are not. If this happens, this is definitely what it is. If it doesn't happen, you know, it's really a mystery. It's really an art to uncover and understand this. And when I work with couples, I'll say, hey, look, does this make sense to you? And when they go, yeah, you're reading my mail, then I'm like, okay, we're on to something here. Let's keep going. So with the hope and help that we want people to have. You already said that it's not as much therapy as it is coaching. What is it that helps people to, once they identify that there's neurodiversity going on, what is it that helps them to be able to stay together and to thrive and to not just constantly feel miserable all the time? Yeah, great question. I think the first thing is that for the neurotypical, is I'm not crazy. Right? Like, there is something that's different here that I keep bumping up against. And the second one is equally as important, and it's for the neurodiverse individual, which is I'm not bad. So many folks on the spectrum feel like internally, I'm a failure. I'm not good at this. I'm trying so hard, and I can't get it right. Oh, have I heard that? And so my hope is that when people have this understanding, there's a sense of relief. Oh, I'm not bad. Oh, I'm not crazy. Oh, this is what's going on. We're just neurologically wired differently. Oh, okay. Well, I can deal with that. And so then there's the hope, right? The Lord said, you'll know the truth, and the truth will set you free. And I think when we know the truth about ourselves, neurological difference or not, but certainly with neurological differences, when we know the truth, it has the potential to set us free, set us free from these misconceptions about ourselves, these false beliefs about ourselves, the negative, you know, talk that we have said years and years and years, or even other people have said to us, sometimes very, very hurtful things. And there's just that hope. Then underneath that can be life giving, that can bring freedom, can bring life to the full. And that's what I get excited about in helping couples. So the I'm not crazy and the I'm not bad. And then a big focus of what we've received are tools that are very different or often different from the traditional tools of couples counseling. And talk a little bit about that, not necessarily the specific tools, because we don't have time for that. But how does that help couples? Well, let me say this. I think it's the order in which it's done. You know, when couples go to counseling and they're given the communication tools, right, and they don't know about neurodiversity, they're bumping up against something. When we unpack the neurodiversity first, then we have this, oh, this aha moment, then we can do some communication tools and techniques to practice, and then there are actually tools that go into the tool box. But if we just focus on those tools to begin with, without the framework of understanding, that's when they don't work. So I think we get the order wrong. You know, well meaning therapists are sitting with people and they're trying really hard. If I could just get them to communicate, or if I could just get them to emotionally connect or hear the other person point of view, like, it would be such a game changer. But they keep bumping heads. Once we have this framework and this understanding and this big aha of, oh, our brains are wired differently, then all of a sudden, we can use those tools and communicate them to our clients in a way that makes sense to that individual. So I think the I see myself when I worked with a neurodiverse couple as the interpreter, I totally get the neurotypical, right? That's me. I get that. I've lived that. But I also have a deep love and respect for people that are neurodifferent, neurodiverse. And I've learned through you and through others that have been open with me, I've learned some of their inner struggles. I've learned how alone and isolated they feel. I've learned that they feel so misunderstood that they mean well. They have these good, pure, beautiful hearts. And yet, no matter what they do, it seems like they're wrong and they're frustrated and they're worn down and they're discouraged. And when a therapist or a coach can see that and normalize that and give them a framework to understand why that's happening, it's like, ugh, what a relief. And so then I see myself again as that interpreter, helping them create a shared language so that they can understand one another and they can communicate. But it starts with each of us, or each individual in the relationship being seen and heard and understood. And that's that basis, that regardless of our neurology, we all have that in common. We were born, as Kurt Thompson says, looking for someone, looking for us. We're born wanting to be seen and heard and validated. And so many times people on the spectrum or with neurodiversity, they haven't felt seen or heard or understood, and they carry a lot of pain with that. Well, Julie Yen, this is a topic that I'm sure a number of our listeners are going to want to dig deeper into. We're going to provide some links and resources on the page where this podcast will be posted. And I'm just so, so grateful for you being able to share not only about our journey with neurodiversity, but also your expertise. So thanks for being here.