Episode 325 - Bette Dickinson, "Visio Divina and Encountering God"

Welcome to another episode of Restoring the Soul with Michael John Cusick. Today, we delve into a profound conversation with our guest, Bette Dickinson, a prophetic artist, speaker, and author of "Making Room in Advent." Join us as we explore the transformative role of women in the church, drawing insight from biblical figures like Mary and Elizabeth.

Bette shares how her journey of integrating her artistic and leadership talents has deepened her spiritual connection and illuminated critical perspectives on the kingdom of God. She and Michael discuss the ancient practice of visio divina, allowing listeners to engage spiritually with art, and reveal how Bette’s creative process serves as a metaphor for spiritual formation.

With candid reflections on the challenges women face in ministry, Bette provides a powerful testament to the importance of marginalized voices within religious spaces. They also touch upon her unique experience in ministry and seminary, the tensions between her Enneagram gifts, and how the rhythms of contemplation and creation shape her calling.

Discover more about Bette here.

Transcript

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Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the Restoring the Soul podcast. I am Michael, and today I'm talking with a new friend, Betty Dickinson, who I met at the Apprentice Gathering last September in Wichita. Hi, Betty. Welcome to the podcast. Hey, thanks for having me, Michael. It's a joy to be here with you. Thank you so much. I want to talk in this episode, and I think we may have time to record another episode about your book Making Room in Advent. And Advent starts next week, and there's so much in that topic. But one of the things I hope that we touch base about is Mary and the Magnificat, because when we met over a breakfast that Restoring the Soul hosted at the Apprentice Gathering, we stumbled into a conversation about Mary and about women and about the pain associated with women's voices being stifled and. And women often being overlooked, marginalized, disenfranchised, and all of those bad things in the church. And you're somebody who, through your gift of being a prophetic artist and a speaker and a writer, your work all touches on those issues. So just to start, talk a little bit about your book and the resource that is Making Room in Advent, and then maybe we'll work our way down the funnel to Mary. Sure. So Making Room in Advent was kind of birthed out of this longing in me to really help people enter Luke's birth narrative. So I kind of went into in depth study of it. I started painting about it, I started doing some devotional work. And so it became it's a series of paintings and written reflections on the entirety of Luke's birth narrative. In Luke 1 and 2 and 1. One of the reasons that I was so compelled by Luke's birth narrative is how much he focuses the story around these women, Mary and Elizabeth and their stories. And yeah, like you had said, I found that those stories were not often told in the church circles that I was a part of and so really felt that there was a gap there, at least in my area of the world. And so I just really was invited into their stories. And when I first actually started working on the first painting of that series on the Annunciation, I think I told you this story, but I was painting the initial first layers of the Annunciation and thinking about Mary being, you know, where the angel comes to her and says she's pregnant. And in that moment I was like, I think I might be pregnant. And I found out that day that I was pregnant. And so it was really this beautifully embodied story of God inviting me to walk alongside Mary in a deeply embodied way and really Tell the story both from the lens of personal experience, of, in many ways, feeling like Advent is like a pregnancy. It's like a waiting time where something is growing in us in anticipation and wanting to share that with others kind of through the lens of Mary's story and the others in Luke's birth narrative. And so the book itself, which includes the paintings, also is a resource, a separate resource on your website that includes visio divina elements. And so talk about. For those that are listening, that don't know about visio divina, that's a big part of when you speak and when you paint at an event, like you recently did at our mutual friend Kurt Thompson's Connections Conference, that people encounter Jesus through your visual art. Yeah. So visio divina is really. It's an ancient practice because, you know, before the printing press, that's how people would understand the Bible. It was through paintings. And I think it's sort of been a lost art for a while until, you know, it's been a little bit of a resurgence recently. But I've really found visio divina as a really helpful practice of meditating on God and entering into the story of the characters through their lens. And so visiodivina simply stands for divine seeing if the listeners are familiar with the term lectiodivina. That's divine reading, where you read a scripture passage over a few times. And visiodivina, the art simply is like a holding place to. A centering place to encounter Jesus. And the work really just becomes a tool for centering on God. And I don't know about you, Michael, but I found that I have a very frantic mind sometimes, and it's helpful to have something, something to engage my attention. And I've been blown away when I lead people through an experience of visio divina where I'm just really just creating the space for them to be still, to contemplate, to open themselves to the Spirit, how God speaks uniquely to them through the work. And I think especially with art, it's a universal language. Right. And. But also God can speak in a numerous, like a number of different ways to different people. And I mean, even in just one visio divina experience, I, you know, as I hear from people who've gone through the experience, they can all see different things in the painting and hear different things from the Spirit in that moment. And so I just love, yeah. Creating that kind of space for people to encounter God through the work. And you call those, at least in one place in your writing, you call them Visual parables that you create. So instead of somebody reading a parable that might be, you know, paragraphs long or pages long or even a larger parable that might tend to go right to the left side of the brain and to the cognitive part of us, the visual parable goes through the right part of the brain, presumably, and it's more of an encounter and more of an experience instead of just information. That's right, yeah. And I really love leading people in that journey first because as I'm sure you know, with the brain, how it works is we process from the right side of the brain to the left. And that the right side of the brain, as you talk about, kind of is where we form attachments and relational attachment with one another, but also with God. And that we have, we process things through the right side of the brain, which also is our embodied experiences. And so we can have an encounter in the body, in the right side of the brain that then we, you know, have to sort of interpret on the left side of the brain with words. And I think sometimes we skip that right brain step just to get to the words. But if we're wanting to cultivate a relational attachment, like a, a secure relational attachment like you talk about in your new book, we need to form those spaces where people can connect with God on the right side of the brain in a safe environment for them to encounter and then put words to it in our theology and understanding Scripture and that the two can work together for a full bodied, full brained experience with God. What's your own process of painting? Because I saw a clip of you at a conference and you come and there's a theme and then you'll not necessarily start out with the end in mind. I don't know if that's what most artists do. But you will extemporaneously, as you're led by the Spirit, create something that is prophetic. And you have described yourself as a prophetic artist. What is that process like for you, number one, to show up at a place where, you know, you're invited to come and be the artist. And part of me goes from a human perspective like, wow, that's a lot of pressure, right? You're, you're not, you're not just in your art studio and you can go, no, this one isn't good enough. And, and, but, but that creative process of kind of following the interleading and taking in what you're hearing and receiving from God and then representing it or re representing it, that just seems like a beautiful, profound Thing. And I mentioned before I hit record that I have several friends that were at the Connections conference and were very moved and stunned by the process that they witnessed of your creating art there. And in particular, one painting. So what's that like for you? Yeah, well, often, you know, every time I create a piece of art, it's a little bit different in terms of the process. I will say that, you know, if, for example, like in the case of the Connections event, you know, Kurt had asked me to consider painting on the theme of the conference, which was imagination to Incarnation. And really where I started there was just praying about that and asking God, you know, is there. Is there an image that captures this idea? And I happened to be. I work a lot outside on my back porch, and I happened to be sitting out on my back porch while I was having conversations with the team. And I have a ceiling fan on my back porch, which is really weird. I don't know why we need a ceiling fan on the back porch outside. But there was a. Robins. Like, robins had started building a nest on top of the fan. And I just watched this whole process unfold where these robins would come, they would sort of brood over the chicks and just sit there until they hatched. And then they would go every couple minutes, all day long while I'm writing my next book. They're just all day long going back and forth, going back and forth to the nest to feed these little chicks that were bursting forth. And I just thought, wow, isn't that a beautiful picture of what the imagination to incarnation process is like? That we have sort of the Holy Spirit like this mother bird hovering over us and brooding over us, offering us protection and safety and warmth until we can kind of emerge in our true selves. But that the process doesn't stop there. That incarnation continues as we're fed by God and as we're nourished by Him. And so I really resonated with that image. And so then I started to, you know, draw some sketches. But in the initial several layers of underpainting, I really. It's a process of surrender, because the background of my work, the, you know, initial layers, really is an abstract process in which I'm trying to depict the unseen spiritual world in an abstract form. That if I were to, you know, like, in the cases of the Making Room and Advent paintings, if I were to depict what's the Holy Spirit doing in this moment, what would that look like? And so as I'm playing with the paint, it's a process of Sort of letting go and allowing the paint to do what it wants to do and inviting the spirit to allow it to take shape and take form. And over several layers, it kind of becomes more and more concrete. And so I actually waited until I got to the Connections event. I had done the underpainting first, and then when I was there, I had done some sketches of a bird kind of coming to a nest with a baby chick and a few eggs. But I really felt like I wanted the attendees to be a part of the experience of seeing this bird and this nest and this mother emerge concretely. And so I had an idea of where that piece was going, probably because I kind of had to. I had a bit of a deadline in terms of painting it and getting it done. But, but, but every time, even when I have a sense of, okay, this is. This is the image that I want to depict here, there's always a back and forth of paying attention to what is the piece saying. How is. How. How is it taking shape? How do I need to flex? And there's just thousands of decisions that are being made in this conversation with the piece itself, but also with God. And you asked, you know, what was that experience like? And I told the participants at the Connections event, like, this is a really vulnerable thing to bring a painting half finished to an event and let, you know, just let the process unfold and trust that God's going to work through it in the timing that I need to get it done. And, you know, it was. It was fascinating because I learned a lot of things. I don't often do this experience where I'm speaking and painting and speaking and painting. That was the first time that I'd done sort of the two together in a conference. And it was this really sort of left brain, right brain, left brain, right brain experience. And I found that I had to also, like, create some safety even around myself as I was painting. So, you know, a friend of mine had asked, like, do you want people to talk to you as you're painting? And initially I was like, well, yeah, like, I would love to engage in conversations with people and have conversations around what they're seeing. I did not think about, with a 500 person conference, what that would mean, that every 10 seconds somebody's coming up and saying something to me and I'm like, if I don't put some boundaries around the space, I'm never going to get this piece done. And also, it was just causing some anxiety for me because people were always like, looking right over my shoulder, which can be hard when you're trying to get in the flow. And so, yeah, I learned a lot about myself, but it was such a joy to do it. And really, really a gift and an honor to be a part of that experience. Thanks for, thanks for sharing in such depth about that. Right at the beginning, you talked about how it required surrender of you. And I think a lot of people would like to surrender or there's an invitation to surrender different aspects of life or things that we want to control in our life. But can you talk a little bit more about surrender? And then that kind of opens the doorway also to Mary and the Magnificat as part of the conversation around Advent? Well, I mean, every time I get into the studio, there's always this tension around what do I think the piece is going to be and what do I want it to be versus where it actually goes. And so if I am holding on too tightly to my vision of what I want to see happen, or, you know, for example, if I create a certain shape and I'm like really, really want to preserve that shape, but I have to put another layer on and it may go away. You know, once I put another layer, I might not see it as well. It can really stifle the work. And I found that particularly, like I said in the first several layers, where it's really trying to create space for the spirit to show itself that this is a conversation. This is not me forcing my way upon the work. This is me opening myself to the direction that the spirit wants to take it. And so, you know, that surrender looks like a lot of different things, but ultimately it's just this conversation of and paying attention, you know. And I find even as I am painting and I'm practicing surrender and letting go of control of the work itself, I find that I can then translate that easier to my relationships with people, that, okay, can I see myself not as the master artist here in this story that's unfolding, but actually as sort of a participant in a bigger story that's unfolding that God's really in control of and that I'm not. And so it's just been a real spiritual formation exercise for me as I'm painting to learn the way of letting go and allowing the Creator of all things to lead the way, both in my work but also in my relationships with people. Thank you for putting it that way, because my follow up question was going to be, it sounds to me like painting for you is a spiritual formation practice. Like some people read the Bible and some People memorize scripture or do lectio divina and you paint. And some people might go for long walks and enjoy the birds in nature. But there's something about the practice that as you engage with it, and for you, it happens to be your vocation, it brings up human issues that are across the board issues in relationships. And so I think that it's an encouragement for listeners to think of that whatever we're doing, if we're coming at it with our heart and we're attending to it, that it's an opportunity for spiritual formation. Absolutely. And I mean, all work of spiritual formation requires awareness and paying attention. And that's a huge thing that's just being cultivated in the creative process is those muscles that you have to learn to pay attention to what you're seeing and then responding and having awareness of what the piece is doing that really can help in other areas of life as well. Yeah. So in addition to being an artist, you are a speaker and preacher. And if I recall, you were on staff with InterVarsity Fellowship. Right. For a period of time. And so, you know, when I think of a person who's part of a collegiate ministry, to me that's like a pastor to college students, but it's not necessarily at a church. And I, after meeting you and wanted to learn more about you, went to the website and you have some dynamic teaching videos of you at churches and in other spaces. One in particular that I watched on the Magnificat. And you're really a gifted communicator. And I'm wondering how you balance this very right brain artistic part within you do your homework with the preaching and you're exegeting scripture and you look like you're really having a lot of joy while you're doing it. So you're not standing behind a lectern and expositing mundane or droll things. That tension, that back and forth, is that hard for you to do? Yes, it is. And actually, you know, I was just having a conversation with my spiritual director about this yesterday because I've been learning that to have an artist gift and a, you know, leadership or administrative gifts in the same person can kind of create some tension. And I am an enneagram 3 and achiever, but I have a pretty strong 4 wing as a creative person. And I find those two intention a lot that the 3 wants to produce and, you know, to perform and to make things happen. But the four is like, no, let's slow down and let's sit in our feelings and let's process, you know, And I. I found that for me to reconcile it within myself. And it's really a stewarding practice to cultivate both of those things, because I do feel that there's a call to both in my life. In fact, in 2014, I was at a prayer retreat, and God just spoke really clearly into my story that he said, you know, Betty, I want you to integrate your paintings and your writing and your speaking to create spaces for people to encounter me. And I was like, I don't even know what that looks like. I don't know anybody that does that. And I just felt the Spirit say, you know, I speak to you in images, and I have images all over Scripture, so just start with those. And I found that I think most of the time, it has to start with the art first, because that's the place that I connect most with God. It's also the place that I feel that he's communicating to me the most. And so I. I talk in that. That in some ways, it's sort of like a rhythm for me where the work for me is contemplation, creation, communication, and then collaboration. And then it kind of goes in this cyclical rhythm. And that rather than seeing it like, okay, on a Monday, you know, half of my day is going to be painting, and half of my day is going to be preparing a sermon. It often forms more out of a cyclical rhythm throughout my year. So usually January, February, March, I'm in the creative process, I'm in the studio more, I'm writing more, creating that space to connect with God and responding out of that. And then kind of in the later summer, fall months, I'm communicating out of that message and collaborating with others, others in partnership with different conferences and events and things like that. So that's how I've had to figure that out. I'm still working through it, and it's often still attention for me. But that's a really keen observation there, because that is a struggle for me sometimes. Can you back up and just repeat what those C's were? Because I think there's listeners. I was really intrigued by that. And there may be people that are driving or even listening. They're saying, okay, what was that again? And you started with contemplation, then creation. But it sounds like. And maybe the enneagram 3 part of you can go, I'll turn this into a course for a workshop for artists and how to do this, because it sounded that good. And I partly asked the question because as a counselor, that's my Artistry, as I'm sitting with people and every soul is a kind of, when we start our work together, it's a kind of blank canvas. And I've often thought about the work as artistry. And then there's the part of me that has been a professor and a writer and thinker, and I then bring those back too. There's this back and forth, forth. So part of this is a self indulgent question. Yeah, so. So contemplation. So that's where I'm sitting with God, allowing myself with no agenda, to just be with God in loving union with him, whether it's receiving beauty, myself and connecting with God. So contemplation, creation, practicing loving union through what I'm creating in collaboration with God. So contemplation, creation, communication is how I then share that work. So if it's speaking, if it's then sharing my writing, if it's in a, in a space where I'm sharing it with an audience, and then collaboration is where I think about, okay, where am I partnering with other people, other organizations, other ministries to share this work? And, you know, another image God's given me for this journey is, you know, when I actually was at an intervarsity staff conference in 2020, we were focusing on sort of this coming revival, the sense that revival is on its way. And there was this phrase that they asked, you know, what is, what is God's role for you in this revival? And I asked God that. And I. The image that he gave me was the wedding at Cana where there's the servants who Jesus then sends to go get water. And I sense the spirit say, Betty, you're like one of those servants that I'm calling you in your creative work to go behind the scenes and to gather into the water, you know, the jars, my living water, my presence, my inspiration. And that as you pour it out through what you're communicating and as you collaborate with others, I will turn it into new wine in the moment that it's serving someone and so that the work really isn't fully complete until it serves someone. But the behind the scenes part is really important because that's where I find away from the guise of others, that I'm being nourished by God himself. And I'm creating from a place of intimacy with him that ultimately can be the thing that serves other people. Oh, that's so rich. And again, I'll start with myself. But I suspect that many people, especially people in ministry or some kind of leadership, that they either don't have the opportunity or they don't make the time, or they have wounds where they are not in a place of contemplation and loving union, but they begin to create and to lead out of an attempt to try to fill up that space and to maybe even if I lead well and if I create well and communicate that well, then maybe I'll feel loved and maybe I'll feel that embrace that the loving union would give me. So I identify with so much of my life I've been in the creating and the communicating, but the bookends of the contemplation and the collaboration that's been missing. So this is helpful for me to see those four as like four building blocks. Yeah. So thank you for that. Talk a little bit about this phrase of prophetic artist. Sometimes when people hear the word prophetic, you know, they think of a Pentecostal or charismatic orientation and that's part of what prophecy can be. It's obviously a biblical category, but you're not giving people winning lottery numbers or telling them who they're going to marry or anything. You're. You're communicating truths that come out of your own experience with God. So unpack that a little bit. Yeah. Well, this came to me really through the lens of inner healing experience that I had with Jesus. So I'll just share some of that. So when I, my first day of seminary, I was in a theology class and I was, I was told our whole class was to go around and share what our major was, an undergrad. And I had all these men in my class that said, you know, Bible major, theology major, Christian leadership, Christian education, Bible major. I was one of the only women in the class and then definitely the only artist really in the class, at least that I knew of. And when I said I was an art major, my professor was like, oh, you know what? Great theologian was an artist? And I was like, who? He was like, no one. Oh, no. Yeah. I think he was trying to make a joke. And God bless him, I'm sure he had good intentions. But what happened for me in that moment was it created a wound that I then in my enneagram three way, had to cover up for. Okay, well, if I don't belong here as an artist or as a woman, then I need to prove that I belong. Right. And so I tried to kind of shapeshift into somebody else's version of success, which at the time was male and hyper analytical in that class. And Jesus brought me back to that moment when I went through an inner healing prayer. Exercise which those of you listeners who don't know what that is, it's really just creating space and prayer to go back into a memory where we experienced a wound and asking where Jesus was in that moment and what does he want us to know? What does he want us to experience from him in that that can be very healing and really even form our brains. And when I went back into that moment, I saw Jesus sort of standing on the side of the classroom and my. The prayer minister who was leading me asked the question, what does he want you to see? And when I looked at myself again, I saw that I had these giant like X Men style wings, like wings that were taking up so much space in the class that that's why nobody was sitting with me. Next to me, I felt very alone. But God was showing me a different reality that I wasn't seeing. And he was really showing me what my divine identity looks like in the spiritual realm. And the sense that I had from him is he said, betty, your wings are your prophetic artist gift. And that actually the wings in a lot of sort of prophetic interpretation of images represent prophetic gift, a prophetic gift. And I sensed him say, and this is what I believe that a prophetic gift is meant to do is I sensed him say, betty, I want you to fly up and see from my perspective, and then I want you to come down and deliver that word through what you paint, through what you write, and through what you speak. So that I really sense, rather than prophetic as being as you're right, there are a lot of negative connotations or weirdo connotations to it. But the way that I see it is it's a way of seeing from God's perspective on things and cultivating a life of prayer that can see a higher up perspective than maybe what we see playing out in the physical realm with our eyes. And so that's what I seek to do, you know, in my paintings, as I said, often in a situation where I'll just ask God, is there an image that you want to share that communicates what's happening here from your perspective? And then, you know, creating that work. To reflect that, I absolutely love that, that experience and definition of prophetic, of rising up and seeing from God's perspective and then offering that, as I think about the paintings, even that are seen on your website and that I saw from a distance from the Connections Conference, there is this sense of familiarity plus otherness, like seeing the imagery and the painting and saying, okay, that's a nest And a bird. But there's something happening where the sum of the parts is bigger and beyond what you can think and see. And so it draws you up into something that's other. And I would even use the word holy, though not particularly or necessarily religious. Do you have time to talk a little bit more about Mary and the Magnificat? And before we started, you said that I think this Sunday you are giving a sermon or a talk about the embodiment of Mary. And I would love to hear about that. I have a chapter in the book that you referred to on embodiment, and just have a conviction that spirituality without embodiment is really not going to take us anywhere except have more information. So I'd love to hear your perspective. Yeah, I absolutely have time and would love to share about that. So. Yeah. So the thing that I love about Mary is I feel, you know, a lot of theologians call her sort of the first disciple. And in fact, one of my Catholic friends, Ram, used to tell me that even when we are preaching, it's a Marian act because we are embodying the Word with our bodies. We are allowing the Word to become flesh through us. And I think the thing that I've learned from Mary is one, how we receive God is in our bodies, right? So Jesus could have come into the world as a fully formed human, right? He could have just come riding on the clouds like he's going to do in the Second Coming, you know, and be. Just show up. But he didn't. He chose to come within Mary, within her body. And I think there's a reason for that. And I think that that's because, you know, when. When we would be filled with the spirit later, it's. It's the same act, even as Paul says that we are. We are temples. Our bodies are the temple of the Spirit of God that dwells within us. So. So we get to participate in the Incarnation in that way with Mary, which is just mind blowing, right? So I think one is recognizing that we receive God within our bodies in a deeply embodied way, as you said. And I think a lot of that has to do with what you write about in terms of attachment. And you talked about again in your book with Embodiment, that the sense of we are not disembodied souls. We're not brains on a stick. How we form attachment is through our bodies, right? It's through a hug, it's through an embrace, it's through a look, it's through, you know, the warmth of someone's presence. And I. You know, Jesus came because God was not content to reveal himself just through the Word. If he was, then he would have, you know, not come in the body, but he chose to come in the human form through a body to show us that this is what God's like, that it we were not completely understanding God in a. In a truly a way that would allow us to form true attachment with him without Jesus. And so that's one thing, I think the other thing too, is just recognizing, you know, and learning from Mary, even as I think about her Magnificat, which is just incredible. And it's so revolutionary. I mean, it's been banned from several countries, right? But the first half of the Magnificat is really Mary wrestling with her own calling. And I think in a lot of ways arising to articulate and sing in song form the song she was meant to sing with her life, you know, and she's just responding in awe and wonder that God would choose to use her, a lowly servant, this woman who had no rights in the society that she lived in. You know, a virgin who really had. Was considered property at the time and Jewish under Roman occupation, of all things. You know, she's an oppressed people, and so she's just in awe that God would choose her. But then she says that this is not just for her. She says this is. This is for all people. And that this is just what God does. That through all of human history, God has been us on the side of the oppressed and has come to raise up those who are pushed down by society. So to lift up the humble, to feed the hungry, to lift the poor and that it's this really passionate call, this revolutionary way that God's salvation comes that brings justice and brings rightness to all things. And I think a lot of times when we picture Mary, you know, in our nativity scenes, it's this very meek and mild and soft, you know, tones Mary in this blue, you know, robe. But if we really look at the text of the Magnificat, it's so like. I mean, even saying it out loud, like he removes rulers from their thrones. I mean, that's scary to think about, and it's even articulate. Well, what does that even mean? But I think what I love about the Magnificat is the way that it just gives us a picture of God's kingdom and who God's kingdom is good news for, right? It's for those that are poor in spirit and in body. You know, it's for those that are, that are, that have room for him. Right. That when we are filled, when we are rich and we are self sufficient and we can, you know, we say like we don't need God's help then, you know, we don't. We don't really open ourselves to God. We don't really need Him. But God is good news for those who are most available for him and most hungry for him and most in need of his help and salvation. It's really revolutionary, as I hear you describe it. And I forgot the part about replacing rulers and that kind of thing. No wonder it's banned in several countries. That's right. Yeah. I remember in our very first conversation in Wichita before today, just being drawn to this idea and sharing how unfortunate it is from my perspective, especially because of my previous hidden life of addictions and the mistreatment of women in various forms, how it just breaks my heart for how the church in particular has held women back and held women down. And so to hear you, and in particular as a woman, to hear you who is theologically educated and who lives in this contemplative, loving union with God, to hear you talk about that, it's just so life giving. And it all the more makes me want to be a part of. Just like you curate spaces for people to encounter Jesus, for me to use whatever little voice I have to, to help create spaces where women's voices like Mary and like yours can create revolutionary effects. Because I think God needs. Of course, that's a controversial issue, right? Does God need anything but that? God longs to see women released and freed up to be fully equal voices of truth. So I'm just as I'm listening to you, I want to hear the sermon that you're going to give on Sunday. But also just this perspective that feels so. It's so resonating with me and it's just flowing out of you and so powerful because of what it says about God that he would come to such an unlikely human. But also what it says about the dignity and the beauty and the worth of this girl, this young woman, Mary, that the God of the universe would make himself at home in her. And it's just so beautiful to see both sides of that. So thank you. Yeah, well, thank you for sharing that, Michael. And I applaud that desire in you because that's not a shared desire from everyone. So thank you for the longing and the commitment to elevate women's voices. And you know what's fascinating about Mary is like you said, I mean she is speaking from the very context her social location is marginalized. And I just. I do believe, even as we think about, in so many ways, women's voices that are marginalized today and even as I've. As I've experienced marginalization as a woman in ministry, I think every time I have that experience, I return to Jesus. And every time he reminds me that it's an honor to stand in solidarity with him and what it means to be marginalized, because you can't. You can't really speak prophetically into, you know, what God's kingdom is like until you've experienced what it is to be rejected and cast aside and pushed out. And that there's a unique contribution that those who are marginalized have that we desperately need, as you said. And. And I think that there's, you know, I think one of the things that Jesus has just gently and kindly helped me see when I've been, like, bruised and wounded and, you know, just whimpering to him about, you know, different situations that I've been in, is the invitation that he often says, you know, like, those who are in the center of power, they miss out on truly what it means to experience God from the vantage point of those who are marginalized. And that there's. The prophetic voice often comes from the wilderness. You know, you think about John the Baptist and artists and those who are sort of on the margins of society. We need to make more spaces to hear them. Because when you are in that place, you are more in need. Like, you have the poverty of spirit that you need God. Right. And that you can often see God in a more clear way than maybe those who are in the center of power and might be a little bit blind to certain things. Yeah. Well, thank you for the work that you do, for the labor that you put into your writing and into your painting. It sounds like you are disciplined and busy and intentional. And, you know, there's a lot of people that dream about a creative life, but it actually takes a lot of sitting in the seat, as they say, or standing to paint, to do it. And so I honor you for that because I'm oftentimes more aspiration than engagement. So it's just a blessing to talk with you. And will you direct people to your website? I know your full name. I saw it written as Betty Lynn Dickinson. But your website is Betty Dickinson dot com, right? That's B, E. Yeah. And then D, I, C, K, I, N, S, O, N. Yes. And if people wanted to go to the site, there will be like, a pop up. If people want to experience envisio divina, I have a free audio visio video guide on. I'll be putting up the Annunciation painting soon that when people go to the site, they can put in their email address and I'll send them a free resource to guide them in this contemplative experience of visio divina through the Annunciation. I would love to offer that as a gift to your listeners. So. Yeah. Oh, thank you. I will make sure that Brian includes that in the liner notes. But blessings to you, to your family as you move through Advent and into the holiday season. And thank you so much for this conversation today. Yeah. Thank you. Michael, congratulations on your new book. Thank you.