Episode 326 - Michael with Peter Zaremba, "Embracing Freedom: The Journey from Control to Acceptance"

Welcome to another episode of "Restoring the Soul with Michael John Cusick." In today's thought-provoking conversation, Michael sits down with our good friend Peter Zaremba to explore the profound themes of self-confession, freedom, and the intricate dance between control and acceptance. They delve into the notion of attachment to outcomes and how this affects our mental health, relationships, and overall sense of well-being.

Through personal anecdotes and biblical references, Michael and Peter discuss the detrimental impacts of turning desires into demands, leading to transactional relationships and emotional turmoil. The episode highlights the importance of understanding our "circle of control," shedding light on what we can influence directly and what lies beyond our grasp. 

Join us as we navigate the complexities of seeking freedom from compulsive behaviors, thought patterns, and the universal human condition of needing control. This episode promises to offer profound insights and practical wisdom for anyone looking to restore their soul and live a more liberated life. 

Transcript

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Hello, my friends. Welcome back to the Restoring the Soul podcast. I'm Michael, and today I'm with my dear friend Peter Zaremba, who you have heard before on this podcast talking about centering prayer, the contemplative life. Peter, welcome back. Oh, thanks. Great to be here, Michael. One of my greatest joys of the year, Peter, is that we get to room together and lead together at the Restoring the Soul week and intensive. So, ready to jump in? As we talk about control, we're going to talk about what control is and seven ways that it really backfires with toxicity in our life. So you ready to jump in? Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, this is a topic really near and dear to my heart. But, Michael, what's behind? Can you unpack? You know, why the desire to have a podcast on letting go of control. Great question. I think that I started to think a lot about control during the pandemic, when, of course, when a worldwide pandemic happens, people lose control. And suddenly our lives, which we were so seemingly in control of, we were quarantined. And regardless of what country people lived in, there were, by and large, at least initially, mandates for masks and vaccines and blah, blah, blah. And I think part of the mental health revolution that has occurred, that where people were impacted so deeply with grief and loss and anxiety and stress and losing their job and working from home and economic upheaval was because we lost control. We were no longer living with the illusion that we can really control certain outcomes. That was the personal level. And then I started to really see the fallout of that, that people started to talk more and more about it in intensive counseling. Third, we work a lot with trauma, and I specialize in working with trauma with couples and individuals. And, you know, by definition, trauma is an experience of powerlessness, an experience of being out of control. And then we are, I think, just five weeks out from the attack upon Israel and the war in Gaza and Israel, and there is, once again, a global sense of being out of control. And there's a war between Russia and Ukraine, and the stock markets are precarious, and there's climate change. And we all have this sense of all of that is happening out there, and then what's happening inside of my own life, you know, you and I are at an age where we're just about 60 years old and we have to start going to the doctors more often. And we both discovered there's things that we can't control, that we can take medication, that we can exercise, but we don't know what's Coming tomorrow in our tests or our blood results. So I think the final answer, the bottom line is that I've really come to realize that the cause of most of my suffering in my life is due to my issue with control, not the things that happen to me. And if you had asked me this 10 or 20 years ago, what's the cause of suffering? I would have pointed to legitimate, real experiences of abuse and boundary crossing and trauma. And that's all still real, that it caused trauma. But the suffering is actually my relationship with the bad things or the difficult things that have happened to me and my need to want to manage and control the outcome. Yeah. So, you know, Michael, I can relate to being a controlling person. Right. Certainly as a younger man, I was in a constant grasp for control. I remember running into a guy I worked with about five years ago. We hadn't seen each other in about seven years. And we used to work closely, him and his company. And he said, we were talking about how we've changed over the years and all that. And he basically said, hey, look, you know, we loved working with you, but you were the most controlling person we'd ever met. And driving home, I was just like, it saddened me. I wasn't aware of it. So I'm wondering if there might be people listening who would say, hey, and there's self assessment. I'm not a controlling person. You know, I know controlling people. You know, my father was controlling. My boss is a controlling person. But, you know, but I'm not. I'm. I'm not a controlling person. How do. How do you define control? How is it part of the universal human condition, not just one person or another? Yeah, well, I'm glad you clarified that, because I was going to say to your first point that control really is a universal issue. And although there are people, whether that's because they have a personality disorder or trauma, trauma or a high level of anxiety, there are people that the way that they see the world and act upon the world, they can't not be in control. They have to prearrange and predetermine that certain things happen or else they're not okay. But I do believe that it's universal experience and that control is a kind of way that we survive in the world. It's a way that we protect ourselves. And so here's my simple definition. First of all, there's a positive aspect of control. If I don't want to become homeless, I need to pay my mortgage. If I don't want to die of a Heart attack. I probably ought to not eat at McDonald's three times a day. If my. I get very, very cold hands during the winter in Colorado and to the point where my hands ache, so I have to take thyroid medication. And so I can control certain things, but I'm using control in a pejorative or negative way, which is that when there is a goal or a desire that I have in my life, and if that does not come about, then I won't be okay. And what happens is I become attached to this outcome, the goal, the desire, the outcome that I have is that does not happen, then I will react, that I will implode. Or as we'll talk about, there's seven different ways where my control and being attached to an outcome really becomes toxic in my life and it causes suffering. I thought, you know, I heard Richard Rohr say once, people have the same reaction to suffering. Right. You know, I don't have a lot of suffering in my life. And his working definition was suffering is anytime I'm not in control, that kind of resonates with me. Hey, you've told me in the past about when you work with your clients about the circle of control as kind of a teaching point. Can you unpack that? What's the circle of control mean? Yeah, we have talked about this, and this is something that we put onto a handout at Restoring the Soul. And I've used this for, I don't know, five years with people. And I was literally working with a man two weeks ago, and in a conversation, we were talking about him kind of. I think he was talking about how people have called him a bully in the past. And I was like, well, you're not a bully as much as you're just not aware of your longings and what it is that you actually want. And he's like, what? I said, hold on a minute. I got up, got my whiteboard, and I drew these circles. And I'm not overstating this, but at the end of a two week intensive, he said, that changed my life. I was a little bit offended because I was like, well, come on, you know, my, my other wisdom and things like that. And this was not original with me, but what the circle of control is. Think about, first of all, like a bullseye target on a dartboard or archery. So here's a circle in the middle that's about the size of a baseball. And then think about a circle that's about the size of a basketball. And the circle in the middle. The smaller circle represents the things that I can control. And, you know, let me ask you the rhetorical question. What. What can you control? And at the end of the day, as we start to think about this, we can't really control a lot. I can control my words that I say, although I can't control the things that pop into my head. And some people would claim that I have no filter, as you well know. I can control the effort that I put in. I can control certain aspects of my behavior and my actions. I can control whether I take the medicine that the doctor prescribes me, but I can't control whether it actually has a healing, medicinal effect. I can control sending my payment in for my mortgage, but I can't control, even though I assume it will happen, that they will receive that and put that to my credit. So, you know, what are the things that you think of control in terms of the category of what you can control? Oh, I guess to some degree, you know, how I use my time, my actions, you know, the things that I can physically be responsible for, you know, who I reach out to, to contact. I think there's a lot I can control when it, you know, what I put, what I eat right, you know, if I exercise or not, how I drive and how that impacts the people around me, stuff like that. That's what comes to mind. So I'll get to the second circle in a second and help to guide me if I forget. But you brought up a really important point, and that is that you said, what I eat and if I exercise. Let's just take those two examples. And a lot of people listening will say, oh, okay, so now we're getting into the real meat of this, because with my history of addictions and especially with the recovery work I've done around the 12 steps, I got into the 12 steps because I precisely couldn't control what I ate. And I have lived my whole life, even though you and I were wrestlers at competing high schools in Cleveland, Ohio, I was a very disciplined athlete. But I would be on again, off again. I would find myself working out intensely and compulsively and. And then suddenly the wind would come out of my sails and I would stop. And it feels like my experience with exercise is something that I can't control because I'm not doing it consistently and I can't sustain it. And there are people who would hear you say that you can control your driving, and they're going, man, I wish that was me, because every time we drive, my wife elbows me in the ribs and I've had to get X rays at the ER many times because she says that my driving is out of control. So point number one around the circle of control is that we all have different experiences of what's within our control. And I would say that for those who have had trauma, they may have a very different definition of what they can control. Their mood, for example. Their anxiety, for example. Now, having said that, the circle in the middle represents the things we can control. And then the circle that's larger than that, the size of basketball, are what we can't control. Things like other people's actions, other people's words or attitudes toward us, other people's ideas and convictions. So if I'm a Democrat, I want people to not be Republicans. If I'm a Republican, I want them to not be Democrats. If I'm a capitalist, you know, I can't control them being a socialist. Other people's feelings, this is a really big one. Other people's humility or willingness to own their ways that they've related to us or hurt us. And then obvious things like we can't control the economy, we can't control what's happening in foreign countries, and, you know, we can't even control whether our computer boots up tomorrow or whether our phone signal goes through. So with everyday things, we often have this naive assumption that, oh, yeah, I'm in control until our phone goes down, or until, in my case, my microwave stopped working about a week ago. And oh my gosh, the impact on my life and then to get the microwave fixed, that means that I have to make time for that on the phone. And I want to control that the person actually picks up the phone and answers and talks with me versus a menu where I have to push 5 and then push 3 and then push 1 and then talk to a computer. And now I'm frustrated. And the goal that I have is I want to talk to someone to get my microwave fixed and it's not happening. And so there's this outcome that I'm attached to, and when that doesn't happen, it causes a reaction. So back to the middle circle, things I can control, the outer circle things I can't control. And if I am attached to or locked into or require that that outcome has to happen in order for me to have peace, contentment, calm, the ability to be present in the moment to myself and God and others. If I'm attached to that, then I'm going to be in a miserable state. Well, this really hits home, you know, that larger circle of what I can't control as an enneagram3 who's obsessed with approval, esteem and affection. Right. My false program for happiness is when I get out of bed in the morning, I will get you to love me. It never occurred to me that that was not only impossible, but that it is. It's completely beyond my control. You know, I've had a career in sales. You know, the slightest look, the slightest negativity that I'm receiving from somebody just has such incredible power in my life. In recovery circles, I was reminded of two weekends ago a great statement. And that is other people's opinion of me are none of my business. And when I heard that, I went. I just went like, oh, yeah. And yet I just real. It's so difficult for me to live that, you know, I mean, I just. I think there's. I so long for a way to be able to get people to think well of me. You know, that's has such power in my life. But Michael, say more about. So this attachment to outcome. Let me come back to one thing. I just want to come back to what you just said about that. That quote that other people's opinions of me are none of my business. I love that. I think it's true. And yet it's like I've got 100 different corporations going on that I'm running, and all of them are around me controlling other people's, you know, perceptions and ideas of me. So thank you for sharing that. You're an enneagram3 and you get out of bed saying, how can I get people to love me? I'm an enneagram too. How can I get people to like me and think of me as indispensable? And I'm in a helping profession and I'm pretty good at what I do, so I'm always tempted to allow a certain level of indispensability, which is really not ultimately true, because if I drop dead tomorrow, people will be okay. But this belief that unless I control the outcome of getting you to like me. And I so relate to what you said. A look, a glance, a lack of response. I was in a meeting with a group of acquaintances and two strangers recently, and I introduced myself to someone who I thought ought to be duly impressed with me. And this person was so neutral. And, you know, in my mind, I was like, they're outright cold that that person is. You know, they probably have some deep, unresolved issue that they're not lighting up to see me. And the narrative in my mind of judgment that came about and Let me take that word judgment about. I'm making this judgment or conclusion about this person based on the fact that they weren't responding a certain way. Another word for judgment would be contempt. I started to form this opinion of contempt toward this person, which is anger. And it wasn't true in any way about this individual. It was simply because that person didn't validate me and respond to me in the way that has become my unconscious goal, which is my program for happiness. So everything we're talking about is truly about freedom. If somebody's listening, I'm going, okay, I'm resonating with this. But this, this feels like now I've got to micromanage my life and figure out everything that I'm in control, control about. I would just encourage people to take a deep breath and say, this is an opportunity for freedom. Because if I can enter into a room and feel connected to myself and to bring my own sense of value and worth, apart from needing to be impressive or needing to get people to like me, then two things can happen. One is I'm actually free to love that person that may not be treating me the way I want. And the second thing is I don't require anything of them. And they get to be having a bad day, or they get to have their own personality, or they get to just form their own opinion of me without me having to manipulate that or something like that. And tell me, let's talk about this for a minute and then we'll come back to more about the attachments. Would you say that as we're talking about this and what I just said for you, Peter, that to give in to. I've got to control this outcome, that it's a kind of bondage or almost addiction? Oh, oh, yeah, absolutely. And I would say this. I was thinking this even though before you asked me that. So because I'm this all or nothing person, right? There's no analog. It's. It's on or off. When that beautiful, you know, quote of other people's opinions of me are none of my business. When I'm sensing someone's displeasure or somebody says, hey, you know what? So and so sad about you in a work situation. I think that if I'm healthy, I have to have this. You know, I'm impervious to it. It doesn't bother me at all where. What I'm finding now is I catch myself. I'm catching myself where it's starting to. I'm not having an emotion. It has me, and it's Starting to pull me and I can stop. And like you mentioned, it's that catching myself and then trying to let go, which is never immediate. Right. It's a series of maybe just self confession, self awareness. Here I go again. And so there's shades of freedom in it, if that makes sense. Yeah, it does. And thank you for making that distinction. And we're going to come back in episode two and three and talk more about that acceptance of the process and acceptance of our control. And it's not about trying to push it underwater or relegate it or make it go away, but about actually learning to be with it. So what were you saying you wanted to ask about the attachment to outcomes? Yeah. Yeah. So I think I understand what that means. But unpack it. Like, what does that look like? How does that show up in our lives? Yeah. So let's. And if you don't mind, what's the difference between, like, you know, like, there's times when I feel like I'm responsible to make a change in something that is behind, you know, like there are good desires for things to change. And so what's the. What's the difference between attaching to an income, an outcome, and, you know, having a sincere desire for the right thing, the right change to take place? Yeah, well, first of all, I think the difference between an outcome that we're attached to that has to happen, and one that is something I can more easily release. It's the difference between a desire and a demand. The desire is I want my hands to not be freezing and aching during the winter. And so I'm taking this thyroid medication and I know someone's going to write me a letter and say, oh, you should try this over the counter kind of thing. Thank you. People always do that. So my desire is for my hands to be not aching and cold. So I'm going to take the medication if I have a. Not just a desire, but a demand. I cannot be happy, I cannot be content, I cannot rest. I cannot be at a place of peace. And I'm going to be very anxious or angry at God and my doctor if this medication doesn't work. There's the difference between the desire and the demand. And being attached to the outcome is a kind of clenched fist that says, I will make this happen. So if a person is unhappy in their marriage and their spouse is clearly like an angry person or is a workaholic or giving them the silent treatment, and if that spouse who's done nothing wrong, says they must change, they have to deal with their workaholism or their alcoholism. And if not, I cannot be happy. That person is setting themselves up for failure because they can't control the other person's workaholism, anger, or alcohol addiction. And so we're throwing a lot of terms around. It's not quite codependency, but it is a kind of dependency upon the other person doing what I want and need them to do. And ultimately the bondage comes in with when they change, I'll be okay. Only when they're okay will I be okay. That's really helpful, the idea of desire and demand, right? And the reason it's helpful for me is there's a part of me that when I consider that larger circle, things I can't control, knowing how much I've tried to control what's in that circle, I feel shame. And so what I'm grateful for is we talk a lot about you and I and another friend of ours, the triads of the Enneagram. Legitimate desires for control and power, legitimate desires for safety and security. Legitimate desires for esteem, affection, approval. Not to shame myself for wanting those things. And I lean toward the esteem, approval and affection. But it's God given. It's when at some point I cross a line and I demand those things, I will get it. I'll get it. I'll demand it. Right? And this is said not toward you, but in general toward anyone. And it's not about shame, is that at that point the relationship becomes transactional and it becomes using other people. The opportunity to have a clean, loving relationship can't be there because I'm relating to you in order to get back this certain result, which in your case is to be loved, in my case is to be liked. So I talked about desire versus demand, and another two kind of contrasting words would be the inner circle of things I can control. It's in that place where I can rest and I can be calm and I can have contentment and I can just generally be okay, but in the outer circle that I can't control, if I'm attached to that outcome, I'll require that that has to happen. So I will require something of other people where they can no longer freely do it. So resting versus requiring, desiring versus demanding. I like that. That's very helpful. So, Michael, let's say that after this podcast, I hang up and I go, that's nice, but, you know, I'm attached to some outcomes tonight. You know, I want this. There's some things going on this weekend, and I have a clear idea of how it ought to go. And I get attached to outcome. What are the consequences? What are the traps? What are the pitfalls of attaching to outcome? This is where it gets really powerful, Peter. Because when we see how our attachment to the outcome, or requiring the outcome, or demanding the outcome, or the goal or desire we have when we're attached to that, we specifically see how that impacts us. And there's seven impacts, four of which are general, and then three which are particular. So I'll go through the first one. The first thing is that if we are attached to an outcome and it does not happen, I will become depressed. And this has actually been a real dynamic in my life, as I've talked about so much on this podcast, that I've lived with a bipolar type 2 mood disorder for 25 years. And someone years ago called depression a disorder of power, which is really, we feel depressed, we implode, we deflate, we lose passion and energy when we're powerless to bring about an outcome, when we have at one point demanded that the outcome happens and it doesn't, and we just give up. It's like we throw up our hands, it's like the pin goes into the balloon, the balloon pops, all the air leaks out of it, and we become depressed. A second response is anger. And so if I have a goal, a desire, an outcome, let's say that an individual is single and dating someone, and they claim to have fallen in love with that person. And as you and I, as former youth pastors know all too well, that person says, God told them that they're supposed to marry this girl. I think we both know a person that we're talking about. And that girl goes, God didn't tell me that. And the person says, but God told me. And so they pursue and they pursue. And today we have stalking laws and things like that, thank goodness. But that person, when that young woman doesn't respond, that person gets angry because they think they are entitled to that other person's affection. And anger is when my goal is blocked, when the desire will not come about, and when what I'm requiring is outside of my control. And if we don't become depressed, anger is almost the opposite. Instead of deflating, I inflate. Instead of getting smaller, I become larger and I become more powerful. And here's the thing. The more powerful is not just an attempt to try to knock down the brick wall between the outcome and myself, but when we're angry, it's very energizing adrenaline through our system. And there's Something about anger that feels life giving. It feels a lot better than depression. So if you ask anybody who's been depressed, would you rather feel depressed or angry? And frequently they're one in the same. Because Freud used to say that depression is anger turned inward. Most people would say, oh, I'll take anger because there's energy and life and passion in that. But anger is often the result of a blocked goal or outcome that we can't control. And I want to just lead the listeners so that, you know, because this is Restored the Soul podcast, I would take people to James, chapter four. And James, the brother of Jesus, poses this question in chapter four. He says, what causes fights and quarrels among you? In other words, why are you so angry in relationships? And he goes, you want something, but you do not have it. Which is interesting. It's. You have this desire. There is an outcome that you are seeking that you can't control. You don't have it. And when it doesn't happen, James says, you kill and you covet. So your contempt and your anger goes outward. And the coveting is I just, I take it, I want, I want, I want what I can't have. And this is kind of the scriptural basis of this whole idea of the circle of control, that there's so much that we can't control that God says, in effect, you're going to have to trust me. Because if you can control the universe of your world, Michael Cusick if you can control the universe of your world, number one, you're going to cause harm to yourself and other people because you're not God. And secondly, you get to actually be loved and cared for and live under the wisdom and the wings of the ultimate sense of love. And so this principle is really, really important. Important. All of this trying to control the outcomes in that outer ring of control is really about me looking for my own safety and security. I'm going to want to manage my life so that I will be safe, so that I will be secure. A third response when we can't control the outcome. The first is depression, the second is anger, and the third is anxiety. And I won't go into detail about this. And I once did a whole conference around anger, depression, anxiety and addiction, 4 as from different characters from the Bible. But it's interesting that if we are attached to an outcome where something has to happen, let's just say that I'm going to give a talk and I'm going to give a talk to the largest audience that I've ever done and it's in an arena, and there's 17,000 people there. And my goal is I have to hit a home run. I can't just step up to the podium and give a talk from my heart, because I know that that might not guarantee a response where people would like me, where people give me a standing ovation, where people say, he's the smartest, funniest person we've ever known. I've got to hit a home run. So I'm going to get up and I'm going to be anxious. I'm going to try to make that happen. There's going to be chemicals that get released in my system, and the moment that happens, I'm not going to be present. I'm not going to be grounded. And even though I'm there to, quote, minister to or give to the audience, I'm on the take. I'm there trying to get something from them rather than to, quote, bless them, and to give to them, because there's now a transaction that's happening. I'm going to get up and teach you truth, but you're going to like me. You're going to love me. And now I'm not free, free. I'm actually giving this talk, and I'm in bondage. And one of the places where we see this in Scripture is in Exodus, chapters three through five in the story of Moses. Everybody knows about Moses and the burning bush. Moses is walking in the desert one day, and this bush is a fire, and it doesn't burn up. And God meets him there. And God basically says, hey, Moses, I've got some new plans for your life. I'm going to send you to rescue my people that are oppressed. And Moses starts making excuses and asking questions five different times. And you and I have joked about this in the past, but it's like an episode of Get Smart where Maxwell Smart used to say, would you believe? You know? And he's trying to convince the chief into some kind of. Some kind of reality that is unconvincing. And so basically, Moses says, who should I tell them is sending me to rescue? Because they're not going to believe me. And then he says, but I don't talk well, so I'm a person of poor speech. And God kind of covers the bases on that. And he says, but I'm. But I'm not very powerful. And he says, throw down the staff, and it turns into a snake. And God does all these miracles. It's as if God is just going over the top to show Moses I've got this, Moses. I've got this. And the fifth time in the fifth interaction of God saying, I'm choosing you for this particular goal to rescue my people, Moses goes, send someone else. That's like, you know, the President of the United States calling up you and me and saying, I'd like you to come to the White House because we want to talk with you about how people can become more joyful. And we would love to do that. And I'm assuming that you and I would go regardless of the administration and basically saying, I don't know about that and, you know, what kind of snacks are you having? But Moses is afraid that he's not going to be able to achieve the goal that God is saying. He's put on his heart. And all of his hemming and hawing is rooted in anxiety. And we see that over and over in the Moses Exodus story. And he finally just lets the anxiety dominate and he takes himself out. God sends somebody else. And then at that point, it says that God burned with anger. And I just want to make the point here because I always talk about how God that looks like Jesus is not angry with us. I believe that what it means that God burned with anger. And I recently heard a sermon on this, that if you look at the etymology of that word burned with anger, that God got in his face and not get in his face. And if people are watching the video right now like this, with his eyes big and just furious, think of it this way. God got in his face. He moved closer to Moses. He became more intimate. He moved into Moses personal space as if to say, I'm going to talk to you in a more intimate way right now. And I am so convinced that this is something that you can do because of me that you're going to miss out. The burning with anger is a picture of God standing in the way of Moses own foolishness. And the burning with anger is a picture of moving closer. So for people who hear this or who have read this or other passages like this in the Old Testament before, when it says that God burned with anger, it's not God turning red and ready to smite. It's God. Just like the God in Jesus moving closer, closer, closer and talking about what's happening in our heart. And it's as if God is saying, Moses, I see that you believe the outcome here is dependent on you. And guess what? It's not about you. And I'm going to teach you to let go of this outcome. This is not something that you have to control. So it's a beautiful story about the circle in the middle. There's some things that Moses can control. He went out for a walk, he couldn't control that he saw a burning bush, he couldn't control that it wasn't burning up. But he could control his conversation and his reaction with God, where he was called to surrender and to say, hey, God, I guess there's some things that you know that I don't. And so I'm going to accept, I'm going to surrender, I'm going to trust. So, Peter, let me talk about the fourth A, and then I want to talk about 5, 6 and 7 very quickly. And then we're going to come back for another podcast episode. Depressed, angry, anxious or addicted. If a person is attached to the outcome and it doesn't happen, they will have to keep going back and back and back and back. And we see this In Jeremiah, chapter 2, verse 13, this famous passage where Jeremiah says, and God speaking through him, my people have committed two sins. They've turned from me the spring of living water, and they have dug cisterns, broken cisterns that cannot hold water. And this is a picture of addiction. The deep thirst in our heart is for my hands to not ache. The deep thirst is for the young man to have the woman return the affections. The deep thirst is for the woman that's struggling with infertility to become pregnant, to conceive and to bear a child. We see this throughout the Bible. And you and I know people that have struggled with this. And it's a deep, deep, deep ache. And it's a legitimate, beautiful, God given ache. But if that is the demand and something that I require, I'm going to be a very unhappy person. And if not depressed, where I give up, if not angry, where I rev up and get big. If not anxious, where I'm constantly wondering and spinning as to whether or not this outcome will happen. I will become addicted. And I'll have to move towards some person, some behavior, some process, or even some substance to bring some kind of soothing and contentment to my inner world. And so manipulating and trying to control outcomes leads to depression, anxiety, anger and anxiety. And the final thing is it leads on three levels, 5, 6, and 7, to conflict and pain in relationships. Which somebody might say, that's really obvious. But whenever we're depressed, angry, anxious and addicted, or if in a relationship, I need someone to be a certain way that's going to impact my relationship with them, I can't love that person. I can't be happy with them until there's a certain kind of outcome. It will affect my relationship with God, where I will have a clenched fist at God and not be trusting, not be open, not be receptive to his love that wants to fill my being from the inside out, which could actually give me a sense of peace in the midst of the worst and hardest circumstances. And then finally it's going to impact my relationship with myself. If I'm attached to the outcome and that doesn't happen, it will affect my emotions, it will affect my thinking, and it will affect my body. I've seen people in counseling and I've seen it in my own life where physical, medical illnesses and symptoms are there because in the midst of really difficult circumstances, people, for whatever reason are lacking the apparatus or the resources or the skills to learn how to be calm, present, peaceful, grounded, serene, and have acceptance when they can't control what's happening around them. So those are the toxic consequences. And I would love it if you could come back and we could talk in another episode about how we let go of control. Yeah, I would love to do that. I know. You know, again, near and dear to my heart for so many years, for decades, really, I lived within such patterns of compulsive thinking, compulsive behavior, compulsive emotions. And there was this small, tiny little voice inside me and always just going, there's got to be another way. There has to be another. There has to be some level of freedom from that cycle of just. And all the compulsion was that trying to get my world to be so. To attaching to. I had a picture of if I just had this. If I just closed this business, if I just had this money, if I just had this debt paid off, that life was going to be great and everything was going to be fine. So I'd love to come back and for us to continue pursuing this. Thanks for what you shared tonight.