Episode 338 - Bill Heatley, "Dallas Willard, the Kingdom of God, and Spiritual Formation

Welcome to another episode of Restoring the Soul with Michael John Cusick. Today, we have a compelling conversation with Bill Heatley, exploring the profound insights of his father-in-law, Dr. Dallas Willard, and his transformative teachings on the Kingdom of God. Together, we delve into the themes from Dallas's latest posthumous work, "The Scandal of the Kingdom: How the Parables of Jesus Revolutionized Life with God," shedding light on how these ancient truths resonate powerfully in our modern journey of faith. 

Join us as we uncover the essence of living a Kingdom life, learning from the timeless wisdom of the parables, and embracing the divine conspiracy of overcoming evil with good. Whether you're familiar with Dallas Willard's deep philosophical and theological legacy or discovering him for the first time, this episode promises to be a meaningful exploration of spiritual formation and divine presence in everyday life.

Transcript

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Hello, Restoring the soul. Friends, I am talking today with a man who's a new friend over about the last year and a half, maybe two years. Bill Heatley in Southern California. Welcome to the podcast. Oh, thank you, Michael. It's really, really good to be here. We met at The Apprentice Gathering 2023. Yes. I was teaching a half day intensive and you were there. And you. I actually remember the conversation where I was te on the path of indirection, which is an idea from your father in law, Dr. Dallas Willard. And we're going to talk about his new book today. And here I am teaching on indirection. And you know, I invite questions and comments. And you raised your hand and said, you know, that makes me think of Mr. Miyagi and the Karate Kid and you know, the wax on, the wax off. And I thought it was a brilliant illustration of spiritual formation and specifically how we don't change directly, but indirectly. Ralph Macchio learned karate not by doing kicks and chops through boards of wood, but the very first thing he had to do was to take his hand like he was waxing a car. Wax on, wax off. And that was the foundation for karate. So do you remember that introduction? I do, I do, yeah. It was the. That was fun. That was fun. And I was like, he doesn't seem like the normal guy sitting in the chair attending a workshop. Like, I could tell that you'd done some thinking about this. And then sure enough, you and Becky came forward and introduced yourselves. And you know, you didn't start with, hey, we're, we're Dallas Willis, daughter and son in law. You just said, I'm Bill. And then I had the coolest opportunity of having you be part of our weekend in staffing the Restoring the Soul men's weekend. And that's been such a blessing to have you there. And we're going to see each other again in just two weeks as you come and co lead one of the soul groups there. Yeah, it's, it's very exciting to see how God is moving through your ministry and through the, the men of that ministry and, and just how much epiphanal activity takes place and how much healing and restoration and, and new life is given. It's an honor to be a part of it. Well, let me start by saying today we're going to talk about the kingdom of God and in particular we're going to talk about a new book that Dallas has written. And there it is on the screen. The Scandal of the how the Parables of Jesus Revolutionized Life with God. The Scandal of the Kingdom. And for those of you that are John Mark Comer fans, John Mark wrote the foreword to the book. And gosh, the foreword is like, could be a book unto itself. It's really good. I would like you to explain Dallas has been gone Since. Is it 2013? Yes. Yeah. That he passed. I had the privilege of meeting him and interviewing him in 2009, but he's been gone since 2013. And yet he keeps writing books. Can you explain how that happens? That's so well put. That's really well put. Dallas, upon his passing, had left behind just volumes and volumes and volumes of unpublished material. And some of it is in written form, some of it is typed paper, some of it are notes from classes. I guess an example would be. And you really need to appreciate how serious Dallas took teaching. And so he would have a class and he would think about his students who would think about the subject, and then he would write a paper. We have a 40 page paper that he wrote for one of his philosophy classes. It was presented once to that class. That's was never published. It didn't go anywhere. It's not a book. But he loved his students so ardently that he wanted to make a difference in their lives. And so he wrote from that perspective. So class after class, 35 years at, at USC or more. And all the talks that he gave. And again, we have papers and recordings of his. Of his talks. And some of the stuff is just. All of it, I think is brilliant, but it's just brilliant. There's 50 boxes of papers up at Westmont that constitute Dallas's written corpus. And then there's 1100 hours, I think somebody told me of. Of his talks. And some of them are unique. He gave one apologetics talk, um, and we, we took that and said, this needs to be a book. And so that became the allure of gentleness. And he gave one talk specifically on Psalm 23. And that became Life Without Lack, which. Is one of my favorite. That's one of my favorite books. That's a. It's so good. It's so good. And this is similarly bringing together everything that we could find that Dallas had to say about the parables. And he gave the talk originally in 1983, and he talked various parables independent of that. And so we brought all that together and that became the scandal of the kingdom. And it's our job. Becky and Mai and Jan Johnson helped with this book. Larry Vertoff for Life Without Lack. Our job is to not get in the way of what Dallas had to say and to convey it and keep his voice, if that makes sense. So when you read it, you should be able to imagine him saying it. And obviously, it needs to maintain its integrity to the original spoken word. But when you speak, it's a little different than when you write. Yeah, sure. So how do you kind of navigate that distance between the spoken word and what would be appropriate for the published word? And so that's what we do. Thank you for that backdrop. And I would say a couple things. First of all, I think you all are really representing his voice well, because as I've read the Scandal of the Kingdom, the book we're going to talk about today, it's as if I'm listening to him. And once you've heard Dallas speak, whether on a video or live, and, boy, anybody who has heard him live, he was not the most dynamic speaker. He was not a charismatic personality, but he had a presence that emanated gentleness and presence and attentiveness and care and kindness. And when he spoke, you know, he's one of the very few people that I would say he could read from the phone book, and I would be captivated because it would somehow come out of the depths of him. And I'm really, really serious when I say that. I think the second thing is what a gift and how rare it is that you, as a family, your wife, Becky, his daughter, and others, are able to take all of this material and to bring it forth in a way that, because of his teaching career and his travel schedule, that he was never able to do so. Thank you for that. Oh, you're welcome. You're welcome. It really was what struck me about Dallas was the. The power of his ideas and the gentleness, the care, the. The depth of study. For him to be able to speak onto a subject. It meant that he had taken hours, days, weeks, months, sometimes years to study on a particular topic and. And his conceptions of the Kingdom of God, the importance of discipleship, spiritual formation. When I looked at the broad landscape of Christendom, it seemed that it was needed. And so stepping in and going, how can we continue to promote the good work that Dallas did while he was alive? And how can we take this very robust and deep and rich legacy and. And steward it well and help people? And it was so interesting that the life without lack through God's providence. That's the only thing I can think of came out during, you know, the pandemic when people were isolated and alone and afraid and scared. Here comes this. The Lord is my shepherd. I have everything I need kind of book. And so, yeah, people were very steadied and bolstered and upheld by that book. And so, yeah, it's, it's. God seems to be moving through the work that we are doing, and we're very thankful for that. I went to college at Cleveland State University, which was right next to, and part of it was on the Cuyahoga river in Cleveland, that river that caught on fire in 1968, just a few years before Mayor Ralph Perk's hair caught on fire. So it's the only city in America where the mayor's hair caught on fire and the river burned. Having said that, I think of Dallas and I think of a tugboat. And tugboats were on the river and they would pull barges. But a tugboat goes deep into the water. It's short, it doesn't have great length, it's not high above the water. It sets on the water, but it goes down deep and behind it, it brings forward a barge that's carrying freight or other things that further down the river they'd need for the steel mill. And the reason I use that analogy, it seems to me that Dallas was taking ancient biblical truths about the kingdom of God that Jesus primarily came to teach about. And as you said, he made them available to the church at a time where it was really needed. And yet Dallas was never, you know, during a lot of his life, he was never a best selling author the way that, you know, the New York Times best selling authors are. And that had the TV shows and everything else. But it seems like the wake and the freight behind the tugboat is having an impact where the ripples are going out all over the world and all over the body of Christ in a way that almost seems to me. Tell me if you think I'm wrong. It seems to me that his impact is becoming even greater in his death as more materials are brought forth. And he's almost legendary now. Yeah, it's been interesting to see his effect, his impact post his passing versus Pre. And I would agree it's been. If you take a look at it from the standpoint of how many of his materials have been translated, that has continued to increase. If you look at book sales, if you look at the number of people who have kind of embraced this kingdom now kingdom available now through faith in Jesus Christ kind of movement, the importance of the focus on discipleship and spiritual formation, it has continued to increase. And in the social media realm, it's done that in book sales, in interest in Organizations that have seen Dallas as being someone who walked the walk and who was comfortable in his own skin and had something really important to say. Yeah, I would agree. I. I would agree. It's really been miraculous. I think God's hand has been in. In it. I think God is trying to do things through Dallas's work. That's very important for us today. Yeah. So I became a Christian in 1980, and I remember back then hearing, you know, names of authors and pastors and theologians that were popular in, you know, maybe the 50s, but then 60s and 70s and 80s, and today nobody knows who they are. And since Dallas has been gone 12 years and, you know, he wrote for 25 or 30 years before that. It's a little bit like, you know, telling somebody the name of Oswald Chambers or even Billy Graham, who. We would think, like, everybody knows Billy Graham, and there's Christians today that go, who's Billy Graham? So I'd like to have you take a minute and just talk about a little bit about who he was as a person before we go into the book, because I think that some of that's important. And I'll just start with that. He was a Baptist minister who then got a PhD in Philosophy at the University of Wisconsin, Madison, as we talked about before this program, because our engineer is there. And I think, if I'm getting the words correctly, he sensed that God was telling him that if he went into the church and stayed a pastor, that the universities would be closed to him. And he obviously had great, you know, intellectual prowess, but if he became an academic and got his PhD in philosophy, that the churches would be open. And that, of course, happened. And you mentioned this already, but when we're talking about Dallas, it's so important to say that this was a man who was a philosophical, Wasn't a lightweight. He was a heavyweight. He taught at University of Southern California, a secular university, one of the more prominent higher education institutions in the world. And he did that for decades. And then alongside and as part of his vocation there, he wrote these Christian books. Divine Conspiracy, Spirit of the Disciplines, Renovation of the Heart, Hearing God and Others, as well as what you guys have produced. Tell me a little bit more about him. Who was he as a dad? Who was he as a father in law? And as you reflect on him, just not as Dallas, the theologian or philosopher, but as the person, what was he like? He was wonderful. We had gotten this new car, and I didn't know how far I could go on a tank of gas, and I ran out of gas. And I was stuck on the ship and, and, and I called him, you know, I said, hey, need a little help? And just there wasn't even a moment of hesitation. And he was out there and brought me some gas and, you know, and got me home. Becky and I had bought our first home and need a new roof. And he goes, okay, I'll be there on Saturday. And for the next three days, this man who was stronger than any person I'd ever come across was putting slats of roofing tiles on his shoulder and scurrying up and down the ladder like for 16 hours and roofing the house because there was no way that somebody else was going to roof our house. And I think, I think you get to know Dallas better when you work with him on manual labor than you would ever get to know him in a classroom or in a pulpit. I think he was a man of the earth, salt of the earth. And family was important, God was important. And doing the, doing the most loving thing, the good thing for the person. And I remember when I started my journey of being a disciple and I had read, you know, his book Divine Conspiracy, and I asked him, I said, you know, hypothetically, Dallas, if somebody was serious and they'd read Divine Conspiracy, what would be the next book book for them to read? And the book he gave me is not the book that he would give somebody else. The book he gave me was because I have a Catholic background and, and he knew that I needed to navigate my way into becoming a disciple through that channel. And that's the kind of personal, unique attention that he paid to each and every single individual he talked to. When you read Jesus interacting with various people like the woman at the well, you get the sense that the world kind of fell away and it was just Jesus and that lady. And that's how Dallas was. And the number of people who come up to us and tell us that that's their experience when they talk to Dallas. So when you were in his zone, when he was, when he had an opportunity to do something good for you, he was going to do it and nothing was going to keep him from doing it. And it didn't. I, I think it didn't matter if it made him a popper, just he never held on to anything so tightly that if it was going to be the loving thing, he would just simply give it to you freely, open heartedly, open handedly. And so, yeah, he was, he was great. He was a father to me, he was a friend to me. He baptized me, he, he married Us. Yeah, it was just. Yeah, he was. He was something very, very special. I read somewhere maybe it was from Bill at Soul Shepherding that he had a hard time saying no. That's very true. Yeah. Yeah, that's very, very true. He. He really. He was one of those unique people that took the Bible incredibly seriously. And so if somebody asked for your cloak, they got it. And. And he lived his life that way. And so if you asked him for something, his natural inclination would be to give it to you. And so, yeah, he had a hard time saying no. And they had to form a council for him to help him get his schedule in better shape so he could do more writing. And. And he would talk. I mean, he was the kind of guy, he was booked, like, three years out. And so he could have talked anywhere and gotten paid at some exorbitant amount of money, but he always said, no, you know, pay me whatever you feel is right. And he would go talk someplace where there's like 20 people. Yeah. Because they asked and because they needed him and they needed to hear the message. So, yeah, it wasn't that he had a hard time saying no. It's just that he really followed Jesus and if it came upon him to go do something good, he would go do it. Thank you. That's really special to hear that kind of behind the scenes family perspective. And thanks for sharing your heart. So the Scandal of the Kingdom is the new book. And I was intrigued about this as soon as you told me about this and you and Becky gifted me with a copy, and that's really, really special. And as I said earlier, I left that on my desk at my home office along with my notes. So hopefully we'll sound really impressive here as we go improvisationally. This book was special to me because the Kingdom of God is something that, in my story, in my life, I needed this understanding of the kingdom many years ago. And my understanding of it is really only about 15 years old. And it's this idea that the kingdom is present, that heaven is not just for the future, but it's happening now. Heaven happening here. But I'd like you to talk about the Kingdom of God as Dallas understood it and as it's in the book. I know there's some particular definitions, but just set up for us because it's a somewhat abstract and intangible idea and yet very concrete in the way you talk about it, set that up for us. Well, the Kingdom of God is God's rule and God's reign in the world today. And that especially through Jesus Christ that we have an opportunity to participate in, in what God is doing in the world today and where we are going, where we're headed, what God's ultimate plan is. And, and that's a completely different orientation than you go to heaven when you die. The kingdom of God is our opportunity to work with God on accomplishing what God wants to accomplish in the world. To love people, to eliminate evil, to help people live flourishing and full lives, and that he is with us in the things that we do in his name, in his power. So it's a tangible reality that we can enter into and bring our life into it just by knowing it, about it and just by entering into it. So it's, it's as simple as, you know, I have a spreadsheet that I need to, to do today. I, I think I will. I think I will do that spreadsheet with Jesus helping me. And it's, it's. I have this email that I have to send. I, I think I'll do this email with Jesus. I think, I think Jesus and I will have a conversation about the best way to do this. And, and then you end up in that intensely powerful space where in the Book of Acts, they, they have this thing that they talk about Paul and how they basically stole his apron and his handkerchief, right? And they took them around and it healed people and cast out evil spirits. And so I think we're presented with this opportunity that even the tools of our trade can be so infused with the holiness of God that they can affect his will and that we have an opportunity in the emails we send, the spreadsheets, we create the simple work that we do, changing diapers, that we don't know what God can do until and unless we open up those opportunities to Him. That's the kingdom of God. That it's, it is in everything and available to us in everything. That's beautiful. And so it's not just out there and among us, and it's not just ideas, it's not just God's laws, but it's actually within us. And therefore, because Jesus is there, the kingdom is there. And that's what allows you to do the emails and the spreadsheets with him, that wherever we go, the kingdom goes. And I think that's important because as I've heard in the media, especially with some of what's happening in the country today, politically and otherwise, I, I sometimes hear that the kingdom of God is going to be brought through political domination or through political power. And this gets us right into the parables that Dallas said were scandalous, but that Jesus teaching is very opposite of that, that Jesus teaching in the parables and the kingdom is a power that's under and a power that's within, as opposed to a power that's over. Unpack that. Well, you've asked a number of things. The divine conspiracy Dallas identified as God overcoming evil with good. And so I think that's part of it. And how do we overcome evil with good? And for Dallas, the focus was on deciding to become a good person. You know, what is real, who's well off, what's a good person, and how do you become one. And so discipleship is that way that when we enter into this very intimate, almost marital relationship with God, that he begins to transform us through the power of his Holy Spirit. And there are the things that we do and then there are the things that God does with what we do and the incommensurability of the kingdom where, as I said before, I experimented with sending emails where I had allowed Jesus to be with me. And I prayed for the email before I sent it, and then I just did emails. And at the time I was doing like several hundred emails a day. And. And so I experimented and sent these emails out. And miraculously or not surprisingly, all the emails where I allowed God to be present in had incommensurable effects. People that I was enemies with all of a sudden would step into my office to be to work with me. That it would overcome all the divisions, all, all the rancor, all the politics that had gone on in cross departmental battles. All of a sudden those had melted away and I hadn't done anything except to send a stupid email. It was nothing special except I prayed Jesus into it and something special happened. So I think this through human authorities and powers, that we will make the world a better place. I don't think that's the right approach. It's certainly not what Dallas would promote. I think what he would look for is the people in political office need to be disciples of Jesus Christ so that they have a clear understanding of how best to work with God in affecting the most positive, loving change in the areas that they have responsibility for. So I think you have to flip it upside down. That's the scandal of it. You know, the scandal is that you can have a politician who is a disciple, you can have a nuclear physicist, a banker, you know, a marketing person, and they can be disciples. And through the agency of discipleship and through the availability and presence of the kingdom, they can affect incommensurate change in the world. That's how that happens. Yeah, yeah. Like yeast. And then the yeast becomes bread, and that bread feeds many. I want to go back to what you said, and not to be contentious, but maybe to clarify and if necessary, to let you expand. You're talking about, you know, praying over the emails and sending those and the ones that you let Jesus into and then the ones that you didn't. And some people might be hearing that and say, well, you know, that sounds almost superstitious and. And, you know, that's like you're just Christianizing it. But because I know you, and what I'm actually hearing is that that's an example of you bringing the kingdom. You're bringing the kingdom that's inside of you, and that is all around us. And you're saying, I'm inserting that into this task in that situation and bringing it into my vocational setting. And then God can do with it what he wants. But without bringing that kingdom, you're just doing work. Could it be. I'm using my sanctified imagination now? Could it be that in that email transmission, that in the air or the space between you and the recipient, that there's. If the kingdom were a substance matter, like one of the elements on the periodic table. And I actually believe that the supernatural is the missing element, you know, and so that something substantive is really transmitted. And the reason I bring that up is because I heard Dallas teach, and I felt this when I shook his hand when we departed, that you could bless someone. And that blessing someone was to transmit good to them in the same way that the email is transmitting information through, you know, you know, digital encrypted information. Talk about that. I think the example of Paul and his handkerchief and apron, certainly one. The other one is Peter's shadow. So, I mean, if you use your imagination and you understand that in. In that culture, they. They began to realize that when Peter's shadow touched someone, they were healed. So in the morning, when Peter would go out, they'd be on one side of the street, and when Peter came back in the afternoon, they'd be on the other side of the street. How did the shadow heal? That's what we have to wrestle with. We have to wrestle with the realities of the spiritual realm of the kingdom of God, the unseen realm. And we do have the opportunity to enter into working with God and to have him be with us in the things that we hope to accomplish. How does prayer work? How does fasting work? How do any of the disciplines work? What what are the, the realities, the substances, as you say, of faith, of grace, of the kingdom and its agencies and actions in us and through us into the world? That's what we're wrestling with. That's what it means to be a disciple, is to wrestle with those things. Certainly it involves living a better life, living it in a better way, but it also involves. It isn't a kingdom of words, it's a kingdom of power. So what does that mean? If the kingdom of God is a kingdom of power and, and we get to participate in, what does that mean? How should it affect us? What kind of results should we look for? And as Dallas would often say, you know, you do your best and you leave the rest up to God. You know, don't manage the outcomes. Yeah. And so I don't know what was going to happen with the email, but apparently God thought that it was important that I get confirmation that this was something I should do and that there was a better way to do business and I needed to learn that. I loved what Dallas said, that, you know, the, the Moses in Egypt and all of the, the plagues. He said that was from Moses. That was for Moses. Moses needed to learn that. And that was a profound teaching for me. I'd never thought about it in that way that God was so invested in raising up Moses to be who he needed him to be, that these were the kinds of things. And what's fascinating is I did a deep study. There were those things that Moses did it exactly the way that God asked him to. And there were those things that were. Moses added a little spin. And, and it was, it was interesting stuff where Moses kind of just did what God told him to were exactly the way God said. And when Moses added his spin, they're a little different than the way that God described it. So it's just like this, like what is going on there? Right. So, yeah, I'll. I'll put this little cherry on top. So I, I think we have this wonderful opportunity to work with God and the. With God life. And what does it mean to be with God and to have the things that we do, and we do them to the best of our skills and abilities, but because we're doing them with God, God's action, we wait and see. And we. Our faith grows when we see what God does with the little that we bring and the much that he does. So I think that's all I have to say. Oh, that's a lot. That's great. So the book is called the Scandal of the Kingdom. Why are the parables scandalous? They are not the way that human beings want things to be done. They don't have the right orientation, they don't exclude the right people. They don't exclude, have an us and them mentality. They are beyond the powers of our religion and our church. And so they're, they are quite scandalous. They, this isn't, the, the people that these parables are saying are going to be blessed. That's just scandalous. You know, that's just. And scandalon, which is the root word for that, refers to the, the rock that's going to trip people up. And so there's actually some biblical support for that. And, and I, I think the parables are that kind of thing where people today would say, no, that's, that's scandalous. Yeah, they, they can seem downright unamerican, right? Where they are un American. They're totally thanks be to God because they were written in the Middle east and they have a totally different view. And 2100 years ago, just as an example, the parable, the story of the worker who goes out and he works all day long. And then the guy, I think the way that Dallas wrote it was the guy goes to the swimming pool or imagining in the story that the guy took a lunch break and he was gone and he comes back and the guy that was there one hour, it's paid the same amount. Right. And on the, and on the surface it's unjust, it's unfair, it's scandalous, it doesn't make sense. But, but that's what God says the kingdom is like. Yeah. And I think that was the one where he actually said that, you know, that scandalous. That's where he picked up on that, that word. And I was, I was on the, the board of the Theology of Work Project and we were trying to glean everything that the Bible had to say about work. And we hit that parable and boy, we didn't end up where Dallas ended up. You know, I mean, we kept on trying to mediate it through our own experience and understanding and monetary exchange and that kind of thing. And for Dallas, it was just. And this is the beauty of the man. He knew God, he knew God's heart and he, he knew the generosity, the lavish love of God, that the person who was only able to work an hour still had a family to feed. And, and so he, he, he, the person that worked the hour, he needed the full day's wage. Oh, wow. And so he got it. That changes everything. That changes Everything, because it puts it in the context of relationship. And here's this relational God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit that exists for the purpose of wanting company in that relationship and then making who he is available to others. As we're talking about the kingdom, it's like, as you say that I'm like, of course that's it. And at that point, the words fairness and justice just dissolve. Because what half hearted, kind person wouldn't go, oh, well, if the guy's family wasn't going to eat, then of course he should get a full day's wages. And it aligns with to turn the other cheek, to walk the extra mile, to give your shirt and your cloak. And it aligns with even though, even in our sin we are saved. Right. So Dallas was able to see the resonance, the harmony of generosity in the parables. And he was looking for it. He was looking for it and he found it. And he said, this parable is about the generosity of God, the open, lavish love of the kingdom. That's what this parable is about. It's not about the exchange of money, it's not about working, is really. It's about this person has a need, they bought in, they came, they showed up. Yeah. And yes, you could just pay them an hour. Or as the owner of the vineyard says, who are you to say that I can't be generous? So. So it's always been right there. Yeah. So, yeah, that's a great one. I love that one. I'm not anti academic at all. I was in academia and Craig Blomberg, probably the foremost New Testament parable scholar, is right here at Denver Seminary, recently moved into more of an emeritus status, as far as I know. And there's tremendous study and scholarship around the parables. But what I picked up in what you just said and what I believe I read in the scandal of the kingdom is that the parables are best interpreted with the heart. Yes. Yeah. And that the heart needs to be oriented toward God is generous, lavish, merciful, always giving, never taking. And there's just something really, really beautiful about that. Yeah. So one of the things Dallas warned against early on in the book was not to make these things legalistic. The walking an extra mile, the giving your cloak, that it really needed to be tailored to the individual. Can you say a little bit about that? It's very, very important, and this was Dallas's teaching, that we understand how Jesus taught, and if we didn't understand how, we were going to mess up what he taught. And so how Jesus taught was through Example. And so if. If we take a look at, you know, the turning, the turning the other cheek, he would say this. Someone being slapped and turning the other cheek because it was the most loving thing for that person to do is an example of the kingdom heart heart. It's not a legalism. It's not what everyone should do in every circumstance where they get slapped, but it is an example of the kingdom heart in action, as is the walking the extra mile, as is the giving the cloak, as is so many of those things. Jesus taught predominantly by example, not by legalisms. And when we legalize his teaching, we tend to mess it up pretty badly. And we tend to say, well, no, it has to be this way, because that's a legalism, that's a law. But that's not how he taught. So that's an important element in the book and in other books. And we took an opportunity when we put the book together, to draw together a lot of Dallas's teaching on how Jesus taught. Yes. And because we thought that was foundational for a parables book, and we'd not had an opportunity to do that before. And it was so crucial for his teaching and stewarding his legacy to make sure that people kind of understood the importance of taking a look at how Jesus taught before you venture into understanding what he's teaching. I both found that fascinating, and I really appreciated it because it made me pause and think. That allows me to look at and to frame these parables in a very different way. You know, another part of how Jesus taught was that he was very indirect or subversive. Right. So he would say things indirectly that the disciples were like, we don't know what you're talking about. And then he would have to explain it to them. And then there's the scripture in Isaiah that Dallas unpacks, I think, in the second chapter about, you know, though they will see, they will not. They will not. Though they are seeing, they will not see. And though they are hearing, they will not hear. And then it goes in to say, you will hear. And it's just this sense of, you've got to get underneath what's there. Yeah, there's. And again, in the gentle theme and on the parables and on how Jesus teaches, he teaches in such a way that you are empowered to understand, you are empowered to. To see. You're empowered to hear on your own terms. It's not forced. It's the gentle approach. And so the parables work that way that you could be the most ornery, contentious person in the world. And the parable will let you come at it over and over and over again and have your learning of it expand and deepen and broaden that. It's. It is this honoring of you and. And your life and your free will to make decisions about your life life that is embodied in the parables that they are the. They are the gentle thing to say to someone who hates God. It. It allows them to. To work it and to feel like they're in control. And they are. They are. They don't have to accept it, but, boy, you open the door to them and they're going to work on you. And I mean, that's the beauty of them. That's the beauty of the parables. Again, as you're talking about the gentleness, the intentionality and knowing of God to say, they're going to need this. So not only to people that hate God, whether they're believers or unbelievers. And yes, there's believers that I know that hate God, and they say that in part of their healing journey. Right. And also just people that are struggling, that need that gentleness and not the forcedness. And that's just such a theme of the kingdom. Right. Is that the kingdom doesn't knock down the door. The kingdom knocks. And the kingdom allows us to open the door however quickly or slowly we need to. Yeah, yeah, It's. It was such a beautiful teaching, and it explains Jesus, it explains the kingdom and explains Dallas. It's just. It helped me to understand why Dallas was the way that Dallas was. So, Bill, as we wrap up, first of all, thank you for a rich, rich conversation, but I'd be remiss to not ask you out of the parables. What are two of your favorite parables that you feature and unpack in the book, the Scandal of the Kingdom? I'll preface answering that question with how Dallas opens up the talks where he's evaluating his efficacy as a pastor and finds that he and others are failing miserably and trying to work on why is that. And he comes to this place that there is a difference between having faith in Jesus and having the faith of Jesus. And that's so foundational for the book. I wanted to make sure that I touched on that. Because if we only have faith in Jesus, we're going to read the parables differently, we're going to understand them, and we're going to apply them differently. If we have the faith of Jesus, then the parables just light up. They become these sparkling gems of. Of kingdom reality. And so I love the, the parable of the wheat and the tares. This idea that we should expect our churches to be populated with people who get it and people who don't, people who are in the kingdom and people who aren't of the kingdom yet. All the, all the sin, all the addiction, all the brokenness, we should expect it to be there. That's why they're there. And that in that setting we are the seed. That there's two different ways that seed is used. And one is God is sowing it. And then there's where our life is the seed in someone else's life. And the wheat and the tares, I think just beautifully illustrates what's wrong with the church today. And what's missing from the church today is the no perfect people here. And there's a number of different ways that it's said. But Jesus's parable of the wheat and the tares, let them grow up together. We'll sort it out in the end. But that's not the end of the story. They. You don't have to stay a tear. That's the point. That's why you're at church. That's why you're there. That's why there's discipleship. That God's not going to give up on you. And we shouldn't either, but we shouldn't restrict you from being there just because you don't have the right shoes or the Hawaiian shirt or the spiky hair, whatever the rules that exist in church, that we should not only be aware of it and expect it, but be joyfully anticipating the tares at church. And so I love that one. You know, I think that one just really spoke to me so, so very deeply. I love the way that Dallas handles the, the Good Samaritan. And it, it was the most contentious one. And because Dallas used the language of half breed and there were all kinds of racial bigotry overtones to the language. And what he was trying to convey was that there is this deep, deep, deep layer of bigotry that Jesus was addressing when he used the word Samaritan. And we draw that out in the book. And I think that was an important one, that the way that the Samaritan was is the way that we should be including overcoming any bigotry or racism or any negative isms that we, that we hold and that we give the help that we can give. It's just. He laid it out so beautifully and so in such a well balanced way, but with profound teaching. You know, nothing flashy like you said so those would be. Those would be the two. I. I think the faith series of parables is also very important that when. When Peter asks, you know, lord, increase our faith, and then he teaches, has these multiple teachings on what does increased faith look like? I thought that was brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. So, yeah, if you get me started, I'm just going to list all of them. So, yeah, we'll stick with those. Is there a parable that. After being so involved with this book and bringing together Dallas's material, is there a parable that you find difficult to internalize or to maybe even have some resistance yourself? Because I know I do. Yeah. I don't want to live that way. I don't. I don't. I mean, you know, the parables. The parables call us to a reality of the kingdom and a reality of our life in the Kingdom. That leaves me uncomfortable because it means I have to change and continue to change and continue to grow and continue to do everything in my life with God. And I really don't want to. And I. I guess I liken it to that. That wonderful line in mere Christianity from C.S. lewis, where the. The men of tin are being made into real men. And the only part that doesn't like it is still the part that's tin, and there's a part of me that's still tin. And. And the more I press into the parables, the more I press into the kingdom, the more I find that I still have parts of me that are tin. Thanks for your honesty in that. And right back to the wheats and the tares, right? We all have wheat and we all have tares. It's not an us and them thing, like those people that show up with biker boots and looking rough and tough, and they're outsiders. But I really appreciate your honesty, and we've had some conversations around this, especially regarding addiction recovery, is that to let the kingdom get inside of us, we have to welcome both sides of that tension of who we are. So what you said, you know, the part of you that I don't want to live that way, and then the other part of you, that's the deepest part of you that goes, well, of course I want to live that way because that's where goodness and beauty and truth and rest and peace is found. Right. And so a big theme of our podcast is that the restoration of the soul, and that happens as we internalize the kingdom more and more deeply. Restoration of our soul happens as we in Christ have the freedom to be truthful about both sides or all the different parts of who we are and realize that God can handle that. And somehow, when we hold those tensions together, that something brand new emerges, and that's this. Of course, I want to. And you actually find yourself living that out, but without necessarily trying. Yeah. The soul is such a deep and profound topic, and the restoring of it and allowing it to perform the function of integration that it's intended to have, and where all the other parts of my life are integrated and in resonance and harmony with one another, I think is a better way to put that. And then identifying that there is a brokenness, that there are fractures and stains, that there is dysfunction at the level of the soul, I think is a big part of what addiction counseling for me is all about. That I see the behaviors that kill and maim and destroy, and I want to get to that place, want to help them get to that place where they can have their soul healed. And it is important to be able to stand with someone and say, this is the wheat part of you, and this is the tare part of you, but it's still you. And let's. Let's journey together toward healing and wholeness and integration and health. And so I appreciate the opportunity to be a part of that in the Restoring the Soul activities and organization. It really is a beautiful thing to watch, and it is incommensurate. I mean, what we bring and what God does is totally incommensurate to our actions. You know, there's always so much more that God does with the little that we do. Yeah, we just show up and. And ask, and he pours out. Hey, we need to wrap up. I want to thank you and your wife, Becky Willard Heatley, and the entire Willard family and all the work that you're doing to continue to bring Dallas's message forward. May God's kingdom come and his will be done in us and through us and on earth as it is in heaven. God bless you and keep you, Michael.