Episode 339 - John Carroll, "Dallas Willard's Legacy Through the School of Kingdom Living"

Welcome to today's episode of "Restoring the Soul with Michael John Cusick." In this insightful discussion, Michael sits down with John Carroll, a key leader from the School of Kingdom Living, which is an integral part of Dallas Willard Ministries. Michael and John dive deep into the profound impact of Dallas Willard's teachings on spiritual formation and how John's journey from corporate healthcare into ministry has been shaped by mentors like James Bryan Smith. They explore how the School of Kingdom Living is designed to guide individuals into a deeper relationship with God through an 18-month program, emphasizing the practical steps to live out the kingdom of God in everyday life.

LINK: Dallas Willard Ministries

Transcript

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Hello, Restoring the Soul podcast. Friends, I am talking today with a relatively new friend, John Carroll, who is running the School of Kingdom Living, which is part of Dallas Willard Ministries. John, welcome to the program. Thank you, Michael. It's so good to be with you and your audience. I'm looking forward to this conversation because we've not had a lot of conversations, although some. We. I was telling Brian, our podcast engineer beforehand, that you and I met at the Apprentice Gathering, which it seems like we're always talking about that on this podcast. We just recently had Jim Smith on, and I think I initially met you at your table. That's one of the things we do there is we, we. We host people to come and talk with us and have resources about our ministry. And then a couple of times you came to the breakfast that we host at the Apprentice Gathering, and after interacting with you, we had. We both. I said we wanted to get to know each other more. And, and so a month or so ago, we had a wonderful phone call where I just learned about you and you learned about me. And I just immediately thought I wanted to have you on the show so people can hear about the School of Kingdom Living. And we're constantly talking about Dallas Willard and his influence on me and so many of our listeners. And you had an opportunity to know him and to also work at the Apprentice Institute with Jim Smith. So a big influence of spiritual formation in your life. Jump in, tell me a little bit about your story and how you got to the School of Kingdom Living and what your passion is. And then what I want to do is have you talk about the program because it's very, very robust and comprehensive over an 18 month period with multiple cohorts that meet. And my experience has been, as I'm talking with people through intensives and speaking, that people are really hungry to take Jesus seriously, but they're, they're at a loss sometimes for a context in which to do that. So I think that's about 17 questions or talking points I gave you. So just jump in, John. Yeah, no problem. No problem at all. Well, thank you so much. Yeah, I'll do my best to address all 17 of those questions in the order in which you presented them. But since you know Jim Smith, he's a mutual friend and you asked about how did I get into this kind of work. I'll start a little bit with Jim. And so I first met Jim at the very first Apprentice Gathering, before it was even called the Apprentice Gathering. And the reason why I went is because Dallas Willard was speaking there and some friends of ours from here in Melbourne, Florida, said, you know, Dallas is speaking at this conference in Wichita. Would you like to go? And so my wife and I very happily accepted that invitation. And so I'm at the conference and sat in a workshop that Dallas taught, 60 minutes. And if you've ever been in a 60 minute workshop with Dallas, you know, I, I mean, just, he's dropping bomb after bomb. It's just like my, my hand was cramping as I was taking notes. I just couldn't write fast enough to capture everything he was saying. But I had an opportunity to connect with him after the workshop, which was a really beautiful moment because I had to, I had an opportunity to share a little bit with him about something that he had said a couple years earlier that really shifted the way that I understood my Christian faith. And so we talked. And one of the wonderful things about Dallas, and if any of your listeners have ever met Dallas, they would know this to be true, is that when you're talking with Dallas, regardless of the 30, 40 people that are standing in line waiting to talk to him, he was just focused on you. It was like you're the only person in the room. So when Dallas and I were talking, I really felt like he was receiving what I was sharing with him. And we had a beautiful moment. He, he signed this journal that I used to keep with me. Now it's safely on the bookshelf behind me because I never want to lose it. But, but he signed that, we got our picture together. And it was a special moment because he passed away 18 months later from cancer. So I was grateful to have that time with him. But at that conference I had met Jim Smith and we, we made a couple connections. And then about four months after that conference, he came down here to Florida to do a pastor's retreat that I just happened to be at. And so he does the retreat, but he needs a ride back to Orlando to catch his flight home. And I happened to be going to Orlando because I was at sim in seminary at the time. So he needed to ride back. I thought, well, I'll drop him off at the airport and then I'll go to class. So we had about two and a half hours in the car, which gave us tons of time to get to know each other. And in that time I had a chance to share a little bit about my call story because I had spent 11 years working in corporate health care and then quit that job to go to full time seminary. And then I was in my second year of Seminary when Jim and I had that interaction in the car. But by the time I dropped him off, he said, you're kind of an interesting person. I'd love to keep in touch. And so we did. And then I came to the second apprentice gathering the following year, and I'm on my way to lunch, and Jim grabs me and says, hey, let's go to lunch. I said, sure. So we go to this little barbecue spot around the corner from Friends University in Wichita, and by the end of our conversation, he said, I want to invest in you. And I'm like. I mean, you know, like, not really understanding what that means. I'm like, nodding my head like, yes, that's good. And I remember calling my wife when we got back to campus, and I said, honey, you're not going to believe this, but James Brian Smith says he wants to invest in me. She's like, oh, my gosh, that's incredible. What does that mean? I said, I don't know. But it has to be good, right? Maybe. Maybe, like, send $50 a month to get you through seminary or something. That's kind of where my mind would go. Yes, exactly. Exactly. So we really started to keep in touch. And then he said, I got to find a way to get you on my team. I'm like, yeah, but I live in coastal Florida, and you're in Wichita, and I'm not really sure, and my whole family's here. He says, I don't care. I need you on my team. And one of the things that my wife and I discerned as we were pondering this offer is that my whole time of answering the call to ministry, to leaving healthcare, to going to seminary, to pursuing ministry, you know, God had faithfully opened doors, and I had never said no. And we thought, well, you know, if we've walked through every door that God's opened up, then why would we say no now? And so I talked to Jim, and I said, hey, Wichita's on the table. And he got excited. And the next thing you know, he made me an offer I couldn't refuse. And where we moved to Wichita, and I. I helped him develop a program called the Apprentice Experience. It's a certificate program in spiritual formation. And I had the opportunity to lead people in a deeper life with God for six and a half years, Made some wonderful connections. And then the pandemic hit, and things were very uncertain. The first few months, if you remember that March to May timeframe in 2020, the world was very uncertain, and the university made the hard decision to circle the wagons focus on strictly academics, and so the programs like mine didn't fit into that category, so they dissolved the program, and I was laid off, which was a huge blow, but God always has a way of redeeming things. And I got a call from the board chair at Dallas Weilded Ministries four days after I was laid off. Wow. And this is Jan Johnson. And Jan said, I've got an idea. She said, dallas World of Ministries has always wanted to have a formation program of our own. We just didn't have the person to lead it. But, like, you know, you've done this for so long, and you've learned from your mistakes, you've learned from your successes. Like, would you be interested in coming to do this for dwm? And I think I said yes before she even finished the question, because I'm like, wow, this is a real unique opportunity. So. So we made the tough decision to resign from our church, and we moved back home to Florida. And that's when I begin helping to build the School of Kingdom Living, which is part of what I do for Dallas Wilden Ministries now. I love that. Well, two questions. First of all, that. That idea of being pursued and seen by somebody that you respect, in this case, somebody that. That was a writer and influencer and that was close with Dallas, what was that like for him to say, you know, I want you to work here, and I want to invest in you. Because as you. As you shared that, both the first time a month ago and now, my heart just leapt at. I guess even at age 60, still wanting, you know, an older man to come along and say that to me, but also just joy for you that you had that experience. Yes. You know, and my time at the Apprentice Institute was so good, and Jim and I became very close friends. And he talked about how Richard Foster, as a professor at Friends University, took Jim under his wing when Jim was an undergrad and then making the connection with Dallas and serving as Dallas's teaching assistant at Fuller Seminary for eight years, and the times that he got to spend around Dallas. So I felt like Jim was providing me with the same sort of opportunity to take me under his wing to give me an opportunity to do things that I was very passionate about in spiritual formation and. And have an impact on people's lives. And that's really like. You know, I talk about, like, my two main. My main passion in life are what I call the two ships. It's discipleship and relationship. And so when I was able to really exercise both those things, I mean, I was really living out what I believe God uniquely called me to do. But Jim and I would. We would have lunch together a lot. We would just brown bag it, and I would go down to his office and we would sit and we'd talk about life and faith and formation. We talk about the work that we were doing together and dreaming about the future. So, you know, those are some of the moments that I relish the most when I reflect back on my time working with Jim at the Apprentice Institute. I guess the second thing is not a question as much as a comment where I'm just struck by your story. In

Hebrews 12: 11:10

2, it says that Jesus is the author and perfecter of our faith, and so he's writing a story in and through us. And, you know, you made a pretty bold and faithful decision to leave corporate healthcare and to go to seminary, not knowing what exactly that would look like. Probably hoping, you know, that somewhere you landed at a church, but, you know, stone after stone was overturned and you found the next step to go. And it's really neat to know that you're. That you are where you are because you trusted God with your story, with these longings in your heart and just the importance of relationship, you know. So even in your story, it's the twofold ships, the discipleship as you followed Jesus, how there were people who saw your heart for that and who wanted to invest in you. And I just have to say, I'm like, I'm not doing a pitch for listeners to go out and find a project, but as we go through life, people are just hungry for someone to see them and to say, I want to pour into you. I want to spend time with you not as a project, but just to see what God does. And it's cool to hear that in your story. So talk about what the School of Kingdom Living is and like, what people do over the course of that, because there's only a handful of these kinds of robust, comprehensive, transformational programs that I know of. And as I've learned about yours, I just have so much respect for it in the work that you guys are doing. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. So the School of Kingdom Living is an 18 month certificate program in spiritual formation. And it's intended for anybody who wants to cultivate a deeper life with God and put on the character of Christ and live it out in their everyday life. And so that's probably the simplest way I can explain it. But what I mean in all of that is that my team and I have taken the very best of Dallas Willard's guidance on following Jesus. And we've turned it into curriculum. And Dallas was primarily concerned about four areas. And those four areas serve as the focus of our four residencies. We have four week long residencies over that 18 month period. And so at residency one, our students are going to learn about cultivating an interactive and conversational relationship with God. I mean, and that's really foundational for everything else that we do. And I'll frequently tell people it's really hard to have a healthy formation when you don't have a healthy relationship with God. And one of the things that has surprised me over the years, this is like my 12th year of doing this type of work, is that a lot of people come into my programs believing that God is out to get them, that God is the, the angry dad or the, the mean and spiteful judge. And, and, and so we, we need to really help with that in order for people to really to, to enter into, you know, this interactive relationship with God. So that's a big part of what we focus on at the first residency, the second residency, we're looking at, and we're discovering the present availability and power of the kingdom. You know, that the kingdom isn't something we experience after we die and go to heaven, but the kingdom of God is here and now. And John. Yeah. Let me just ask you, what is the kingdom of God? We use that term a lot on here. I define it in its simplest terms as heaven happening here. So talk about some of the layers in which you define the kingdom of God that you're saying is present and available. Yeah, well, you know, this will be an opportunity to borrow from our friend Dallas, you know, who would say the kingdom of God is the range of God's effective will, where what God wants done is done. And, and, and, and that to me is such a helpful working definition of the kingdom. And so when we are within God's will, when we are listening to him and following him and practicing the way of Jesus, then we, we are in the kingdom. And so I, I hope that is a helpful definition. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, so talk about that, that present availability. That is the emphasis of the second cohort or gathering. Yes. And so we spent a lot of time defining what the kingdom is and helping people get their hands around that. You know, it's kind of interesting. But usually at that residency, some of our students will end up kind of pounding the desk saying, you know, why doesn't my church ever talk about the kingdom like this? And so we're providing some insights and ideas about the kingdom that are fresh for people. And, and, and I think that they appreciate that. They seem to latch on to that. But part of connected to that kingdom topic, we also spend a lot of time talking about the gospel that Jesus proclaimed and what that has to do with the kingdom. So, you know, when Jesus comes up on the scene and says, repent for the kingdom of the heavens is at hand, like what in the world is he talking about? Well, we spent some time on that and we also spend some time on the Sermon on the Mount, taking a look at the Beatitudes and the words of Jesus, but also the vices that Jesus identified in the Sermon on the Mount. Things like fear and worry and anger and impression management, lust. How do you root out those vices and replace them with the life giving virtues of Jesus? So it's a very comprehensive approach to kingdom living at that residency. And number three, so the third residency. We'Re focused on the, the process of character formation into Christ likeness. So how do I put on the character of Christ? How do I take that on and live it out? But we also take a look. I would say that our third residency is our most introspective. And so we do a lot of examining on the interior. What, what's going on inside me? What are my motivations? I know that you have a great friendship with Ian Cron. We, we use the enneagram a little bit at this residency to kind of understand how we are wired, but then also to understand how our neighbor is wired and how that helps us cultivate a mercy or a tender approach to our neighbor. Because it's very easy when the person behaves a certain way, we just sort of reject that. We become kind of prickly towards that. But, you know, how can we really love our neighbor? Just understanding like this, this is how they're wired. So that's part of what we look at in the third residency and then in the fourth residency, we call it missional spirituality. And what I mean by that is we want to help our students take the good news of Jesus into the spaces where they live and work and learn and worship and play. Like all of those spaces, how do you take the good news of Jesus there? With the eyes of Jesus to see what Jesus sees. And because Jesus always saw people differently than the other characters in scripture, whether that's the disciples, certainly the Pharisees, Jesus always saw people differently. So we want to be able to help our students do that with the eyes of Jesus and then also with the Heart of Jesus to feel what Jesus feels, to what does it mean to really be on mission and love our neighbor as herself? So that's really where the rubber hits the road. And at the end of the fourth residency, we have a beautiful commissioning ceremonia, a graduation celebration. And it's really a lovely thing because our students have an opportunity to share for a few minutes about what the last 18 months has meant to them and to hear the thing. I mean, now you're really seeing it all come to completion. And for me, it's such a joy because I'm the one that they talk to when they first apply to the program or think about applying to the program. And then I'm able to see them as they graduate and to see the transformation, the change within them is such a privilege because they really are different people when they graduate. And then I get to see all the wonderful things that they do with their experience in the program. And our students have gone on to do incredible work, whether they are in paid vocational ministry or they serve in their community in some capacity, or if they volunteer in their church in some capacity. We've seen some really amazing fruit from all that. And you said that the program's open to anyone and everyone. So I imagine that you've had school teachers and plumbers and students and retired people and, you know, everyone in between. So it's not just for, as you said, vocational ministry or even people that are volunteering in a church, but for people who. Who are serious about following Jesus, being his disciple, and who are ready and willing for transformation. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, you've nailed the. Nailed. Hit the nail right on the head. Yeah. Our youngest student is 19, and our oldest student was 85 when he graduated from the program. Wow. I was going to say he was 63 when he started, but he was just a slow learner. Yeah. Now, that would be more like seminary, you know, where you go in and it takes you about 13 years to graduate. Yeah, this is 18 months. And, yeah, it's a real joy to be able to lead this. Yeah. One of the things about Dallas that people don't often talk about, it's kind of implicit in what he taught and wrote about, but that he actually was speaking of Jesus and the kingdom and the gospel in a way where you could actually be transformed and that it wasn't mysterious. And I remember when the one time I had a chance to spend several hours with him, doing an interview and hanging out afterwards, I said, give me an example of how you teach people to be Christlike. And, you know, I was expecting him to say something like centering prayer or lectio divina or reflecting. And he said, well, you just teach people how to bless one another and literally to say, I bless you, to transmit the spirit of Christ to them. And it struck me as, oh, so you could almost. Not almost, because this is what you're doing, kind of systematically go through and say, these are the things that Jesus did. Here's how to do them. Now go do them. And that it's all about action. And so often in my spiritual formation, there's a sense where. And, yes, growth happens over time, but there's a sense in which, well, here's kind of what I'm working on now, and we'll kind of see how it morphs. Maybe a year from now, I'll be different. But being in the kingdom is really about action and that we can act in ways that bring about transformation. Without a doubt, I would affirm that 100%, you know, and it's really like going, you know, back to what, you know, Dallas defined as love. It's willing the good of your neighbor and. And that would include blessing. I mean, when. When you're focused on willing the good of someone and that. That you are blessing them, that you are loving them, I mean, you really are living like Jesus, and that doesn't always come easy. I mean, I think that's why, you know, Dallas was so intent on talking about, you know, training versus trying, that, you know, if you just try every once in a while to. To do something. You know, if I tried to run a marathon with no training, it wouldn't turn out so well. But if I train for a marathon and I'm, you know, doing these, putting these things into practice every day, then there's going to be a point where I'm able to run 26.2 miles. Right. A lot of times when we're thinking about, you know, loving somebody, I mean, you. You really do have to train to love somebody, to. To make it a priority to be intentional about it, you know, to look for opportunities to love people, and then, you know, actually, you know, put that into action. Yeah. So many of the people that listen to this podcast have had painful experiences in the body of Christ, and many actually in the church. I've gone through in the past a real season of ambivalence about the church believing that it's the body of Christ, that it's the bride of Christ. But some of the pain and disappointment there, me needing to work through and I'M part of a fellowship now that I think I'll be part of for the rest of my life, and I really enjoy that. And it's more liturgically based. But what I also love about what you're doing is that when you speak about the kingdom and being in the kingdom and the availability of the kingdom, that that's a bridge for people between the pain of the past and the wounds and the brokenness that they might have and the church and the body of Christ more formal. And so you talked about how some people will say, you know, why isn't this more part of the church? Or why have I never heard this? But tell me some stories of how you see this getting into the church. Yeah, that's a great question. Well, I. I see it in a few different ways. The first from when we have pastors that will come through the program, and it certainly shapes their preaching, you know, that. That, you know, just. Just being able to kind of expand what they're able to. To preach on and preach from. I think that that would be one of the primary ways that we see the program impacting the church. But then also just, you know, pastors have a huge responsibility. They're covering a very wide array of responsibilities. And I think that, you know, we help pastors practice things that help create some margin for them. I feel like it's restorative in some ways that re. Energizes. I mean, we've seen a lot of church ministry revitalized just by virtue of pastors coming through the program. So that's a real blessing because you know that that's going to flow down into the congregation and be a blessing to the parishioners. We also see people feel like they have a greater confidence to teach Sunday school classes and discipleship classes, things that are happening at the church. Some people, you know, as they. They come in, they feel a little insecure, like, well, what really qualifies me in order to speak with this and any kind of authority. And I think by the time they graduate, they do see a greater confidence and a greater handle on some of these, you know, main ideas in spiritual formation and discipleship. So. So that would be another way. I mean, just maybe two. Two good examples there. Well, in that last one, they not only get some information and big ideas, but they've experienced the impact of that in their own life, you know, and so remember, Stephen Covey used to say that when you learn something, if you teach it, then it's going to become internal in you. But it's also True that if you learn something and you're in a community in a context where it can be internalized, then the teaching of it almost overflows missionally, whether you're teaching a Sunday school class or something in the community or not. Well, that word that you used, Michael, internalized, that's actually one of the primary things that we focus on for our students. We'll talk about some anticipated outcomes, and really there are four primary ones, but the first one is what we call internalization. And we got that idea, you know, and from Revelation, when John is writing about eating the pages of Scripture so that they can become a part of his interior. You know, we tell our students all the time that we want what we teach you to become a part of your interior, because when that happens, then you just naturally and routinely do the kinds of things that Jesus said in your everyday, ordinary life. It's just who you are. It's a part of your character. And. And so for us, that's what we'd like our, our students to be really leaning into throughout their 18 months with us. I love that. Will you, before we finish up, will you give the information for your website? And if people are saying, wow, I want to look into this, how would they go about that? So our website is simply D, Willard, d for Dallas. Willard.org dwillard.org and there is a tab at the top of our homepage that says School of Kingdom Living. And it provides the program description. Information also goes into detail about our faculty. One of the wonderful things about our faculty is that nearly all of them spent very comprehensive time with Dallas. Jan Johnson wrote books with Dallas. She taught with Dallas. Keith Matthews stepped into the Fuller Classroom with Dallas after Jim Smith had stepped out. Keith spent 18 years with Dallas. Steve Porter did his Ph.D. in philosophy under Dallas at USC in Los Angeles. And John Ortberg has written, written about and talked about his deep relationship with Dallas over the years. And. And so we really do have some really rich resources who, you know, bring Dallas's work to life. And so that's great. So you can read about that. We also have the dates for all of our cohorts and other information. So if. If your listeners are thinking about doing the School of Kingdom Living or just would like to set up a time to connect with me offline, to share a little bit, they can go to the website and to do all of that. John, it is a blessing to spend this time with you and to talk with you. And as you know, every time I hear about the specifics of what you're doing. I'm just really a fan. So for listeners, I encourage you to check it out@d willard.org and John, thank you so much for sharing your heart and your experience today. Thank you. Michael. I'm so grateful to have the opportunity to connect with you and your audience and bless you in the work that you're doing and your new book.