Episode 377 - Bette Dickinson, "The Art of Vinemaking"

Welcome to Restoring the Soul with Michael John Cusick. In this episode, Michael welcomes back Bette Dickinson to dig into the wisdom behind her new book, "The Art of Vine Making: Spiritual Flourishing in a Productivity Driven Culture." Together, they explore the rich metaphor of the vine and branches from John 15—not just as a theological concept, but as an intentional, relational process that mirrors the art of winemaking.

Bette Dickinson shares the story of her friendship with a real-life vine dresser, drawing deep parallels between tending vineyards and the journey of spiritual formation. Listeners will discover how God’s nurturing presence and attentive love invite us away from the relentless urge to be productive and towards true flourishing—where quality, process, rest, and relational attunement matter more than mere quantity or output.

Through personal stories, practical contrasts between productivity and flourishing, and profound insights into seasons of dormancy and growth, this episode offers a compassionate, hope-filled vision for anyone longing to abide more deeply in God’s love.

ON THE WEB: bettedickinson.com

Transcript

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Hi, everybody. Welcome back to Restoring the Soul. It's Michael. And today, a return guest on the program, my new friend, Betty Dickinson. So right from the start, I want people to know about all that you do, because I met you at the Apprentice gathering, which our group has been a part of for five years now. We had a lovely conversation over breakfast and then I really got to know your work through your website and, and you were on the podcast once before talking about Advent and your Advent series. But you have a brand new book out. I'm going to hold it up for those that are watching on YouTube. The art of Vine Making. Spiritual Flourishing in a Productivity Driven Culture. The Art of Vine Making. So that's where I want to go deep into today. But again, calling people to go to your website because you've got amazing artwork. I particularly am fond of the Celtic way art that you have done. And let's start with this question. Most listeners will know of John 15 because I am constantly harping about John 15 and that the metaphor where Jesus talks about our union with him as the vine and the branch. But what is vine making? Good question. So I was trying to spin off the idea of winemaking because winemaking is an intentional art. And I chose vine making because I think in the spiritual formation journey of seeking to abide in the vine, we are always in process. And so the idea of vine making is God's intentional creative process to help us to be unfold into who we are. And the work that goes into, as he is, the Father vinedresser, the work that goes into cultivating us to become more like Jesus, the true vine, as his branches. You know, I, I love the fact that you referred to the winemaking and the vine making. And I was going to make a joke about how Christians, you know, it wouldn't be acceptable to have a book about wine making, although, you know, all those Baptists that secretly, secretly drink wine without saying anything that, that the process is one that is highly relational and that it is a process. So it's one thing to hear about the teaching about what means that Jesus is the vine and we're the branches. But the thing that I loved about the book is that you unpack it and use the process of winemaking and grapes and the vine as the literal metaphor, not just as a one time metaphor, but in all the different stages of vines and grapes and winemaking. And it was a beautiful parallel. I mean, it was uncanny when you really unpack that. And here's the cool thing that I want listeners to know. You are not a person that just went and read a book, you met Dave, and tell the story of meeting Dave and what Dave is and how that relationship developed and how this book came to life. Yeah. So several Years ago in 2019, I was commissioned to do a painting and a devotional piece on John 15. And I thought, wow, that would be amazing if I could actually meet a real vine dresser, somebody who actually tends vines. Because I could write about this, but I don't have any idea what goes into pruning or cultivation. And because I live in Traverse City, we are a growing wine region. And I was able to connect with this vine dresser named Dave Boss, who he had tended vines in Napa Valley, California, and moved here and was really seeking to influence the wine industry to become more organic. So the way that he tends vines is actually very more similar to the way they would have in Jesus's day, because it's. He doesn't have large machines or fertilizers or it's not industrialized. And so when I met with him, I had, you know, told him I wanted to get pictures of the vines for source images for this painting. But in reality, I was like, I have so many questions for you. Because we read this passage all the time and many of us don't have the opportunity to actually talk to someone who tends vines. And so when I met with him, one of the first questions I had for him was, what do vinedressers pay attention to when tending vines? And he, what he said shocked me because he said, well, actually, good vine dressers don't pay much attention to the fruit. They pay attention to the health, the quality and the vitality of the vine. And if you pay attention to those things and do good work in the cultivation and the seasons leading up to it, good fruit, good quality fruit will be the natural overflow. Which was just mind blowing for me, especially in the ministry world where and in our culture in general, we often think about fruit all the time. It's always about the fruit, and it's always about kind of more quantity. But what he began to teach me was that it's actually more about quality, and especially in the winemaking world, which is interesting that Jesus again chose a vine because it's. It's deeply about quality that you're trying to get out of the vine, not necessarily the quantity, the amount of. And so it really began, this six year journey of meeting with Dave in the vineyards in every season, because I was so hungry to learn more. After he said that one thing I was like, well, wait, how does this even work? What do you mean? It's not about the fruit. Like how, how what goes into the process in all of the seasons of sort of life, death and resurrection leading up to harvest. And harvest is just a few short weeks. So it began this process of just. Yeah. Meeting with him and learning more and us developing a friendship and him influencing me, and me influencing him. And it's, it's been a beautiful journey. And you really, you really unpack that, you know, chapter after chapter as that relationship evolves and as your knowledge and understanding evolves of, you know, it's almost like as I read through, I remember there was a sense of every chapter. It's like, okay, here's what you learned with Dave, and you went out again into the fields, into the vines. And then the next chapter, it's like. And then the next stage. Very easy read in that sense that it's not bogged down in theological heaviness, but it's really. There's wonderful prose that you've written, but with deep theological truths. I really appreciated that you said, and I actually quoted you when I gave a talk at the apprentice gathering about somewhere around the end of the first chapter, you said, of all the plants that Jesus could have chosen to represent this relationship with him, the one that he chose was the vine. And it's one of the most high maintenance plants. And then you pose the question, so what does this tell us about God? So what does this tell us about God that He chose the vine? I just really think it's because God is relational and he wants to be close to us and he's an active role in our formation. He wants to connect, he wants to see us, he wants to tend us. Not just one, once in one pass of a season, but continually and continually coming back. And one of the fascinating things I've learned about Dave and his approach to farming and organic farming is the key process of observation. The, the role that the vine dresser plays in actually getting into the vineyards to see, to behold, to see what the vine is doing and what it needs. And it's this sort of sense of contemplation. It's like a loving contemplation of the vine and an attentive responsiveness to. To its needs, which I just think is such a beautiful picture to how God sees us, that he lovingly. He wants to get close to lovingly behold and contemplate us and to tend to our wounds, to tend to our needs and to. To be responsive in relationship to us, which I just think is so, so, so beautiful. And yeah, other, other plants you can just prune one time and it's, you know, pretty much done. But as Dave had told me, he goes through in the growing season 8 to 10 different times during the growing season to, to prune it, to water it, to, you know, sucker off the leaves. All these kinds of things are part of the, the growth process. And I just think that's fascinating. It makes me think of the idea of attunement because I had written Sacred Attachment and that came out about six months before your book. And I like to think of the meta story in scripture from Genesis to Revelation as God saying, I am a God who's not distant, who's not far off, but I'm actually attached to you. I'm closer than you think. And that that attachment is indivisible, like the vine and the branch. There's Nothing in John 15 that says he makes the branches go away. It's talking about pruning and allowing those branches to either grow back or to allow the fruit to proliferate. But God is really a God who's attuned to us. And the way that you describe that, that what it tells us about God is that God's a God. He's the parent that says, I've got my eye on you. And it's not to look for you to get into trouble, but it's to see you flourish and to, to do everything I possibly can for you to grow up and to live more and more in the fullness of this vine and branch relationship. Yeah. And I would say too, even leaning into that in, in not a God doesn't approach us in a punitive way, like you were saying, of just sort of looking for where we've gone wrong, but is more proactive. And, and, and that was the fascinating thing I learned that the difference between sort of organic farming and industrial farming, where industrial farming is often about fixing problems and sort of managing outcomes. Right. And I think sometimes we have the vantage point that God looks at us that way, that he's like a boss that's trying to put the squeeze on us for more, you know, and is. Is looking for where are we making mistakes or where are we causing problems or where are we, you know, needing to be controlled to be more effective. Right. Whereas what I learned from Dave that just really shifted my vantage point of God is this vantage point of love, of loving contemplation, where he says of these vines. I'm not mad at you for, you know, needing to be Pruned back more or needing, needing even the fruit to come off. In this season. I'm going to do everything in my power to help you thrive, to help you flourish for the long haul. And he has this sort of long view of sustainability, of health and healing and quality that is so different, I think, from what our culture tends to think about God, right? That he sees us and he takes this long term perspective, even in the pruning, to say, I'm going to cut these things away, trusting that that's what's, that's what you need in order to heal, that's what you need in order to grow your roots down deep. And that I might not see the fruit in this season, but it might be two or three years down the road that I'm doing this so that you can heal and be healthy and flourish and that the overflow of that flourishing is this quality fruit, not the other way around. I love how you talked about the roots down deep. One of my favorite passages

is in Ephesians 3: 11:18

16, where Paul prays, my prayer for you is that you be rooted and established in God's love. And right behind me, just like you have your own artwork, which is the seed sprouting. And then in that, I don't know what a. I know a diptych and a triptych. I think that would be a quad. A quad tip. Four pictures together. So I have a piece of artwork where it's just roots that are going down to the ground and the roots are painted on the glass and then behind. So it was a relatively inexpensive piece of art, but it's multi dimensional. It's. It's really cool. So I like to do the podcast in front of that. Can we just define something before we go any further? And this is also. I used your quote as a jumping off point to propose the idea that when we think of spiritual fruit, the first thing we think of is leading people to Jesus or serving the poor or doing something and somehow producing, which I want to unpack later. But first and foremost, fruit is spoken of as something internal, the fruit of the spirit, and that that has to happen and that has to grow before anything else. Therefore, the fruit that God is producing in all of this winemaking and vine making is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, goodness, faithfulness and self control. Plus all the other fruits of the spirit that aren't listed there, like compassion and all of those qualities of God's truth, goodness and beauty. But would you agree that the fruit, it's like, that's what God wants to do in us. He wants to make us joyful. He even said in John 15 that, I'm telling you this so that you would have joy. Absolutely. And it's funny because when I talk about this with people, I reference. I don't know if you've heard the Uncle Charlie song with. It's. No, it's a silly. It's a silly kid song. But it's like, the fruit of the spirit's not a coconut. The fruit of the spirit's not a coconut. If you want to be a coconut, you might as well hear it. You can't be the fruit of the spirit. And it's this silly playful song to teach kids that the fruit of the spirit isn't something tangible that you can see, like a coconut. Right. And I think. I think we need an adult version of the song that says, okay, the fruit of the spirit isn't a crowd. The fruit of the spirit isn't an applause. The fruit of the spirit's not a product. It's not something you produce. It's the overflow of who you are becoming as you become like Jesus. And that expresses itself in tangible ways, like you said, like caring for the poor and leading people to Jesus. But the first fruit, sort of the overflow of us abiding in Jesus is that we become like Jesus, and that as we become like Jesus, we do the things like Jesus. But yes, the first thing is, is this internal transformation that. That deeply comes from the roots of our abiding. And yes, I. I agree, and I think that is a. It's a difficult shift because I think we often think about fruit in terms of numbers too, and even our performance, you know, and so we evaluate people like we do machines by their output, whereas that's just not how God views us. So that's a great segue into where I want to spend a chunk of time. And you set up this paradigm of contrast between the productivity driven approach and the flourishing approach. And I'd literally like to go down this list and maybe do what I did once with a guest called the Lightning Round, like on a game show where we just. You just give a couple of words about each one. But. So this is kind of a flourishing approach versus productivity. The first one is. Well, let me just allow you to comment. First of all, you. You've touched on it already. Why this contrast and why did you feel it was important to spell this out at the beginning of the book before you get into the stages and the process of growth? Yeah, I think because like all of us, we come to the scriptures with a cultural lens. Right. And I think in particular in Western culture, we're very formed by the Industrial revolution, which focuses a lot on outcomes, focuses a lot on efficiency, success, numerical growth, sort of linear growth as well, that it's sort of like we always need to be having a growth chart going up into the right. And I think that can shape our view of fruit when we talk about it or when we talk about what's the goal that God is after here. And, and I think that that contrast is critical because if we are constantly being shaped by a productivity driven culture, then we will often shift that into our spiritual life and our view of God, ourselves and one another. And I think that we need this mindset shift because it is so countercultural and we need to make sure we're understanding the water that we're swimming in and how it's different than the way that Jesus has designed it and his approach and desire for us. Thanks for that. So the first, the first contrast is in the flourishing approach. It's quality, productivity driven approach, it's quantity. So you want me to lean into that? What does that mean? Yeah, yeah, you can just say like a sentence or two for each one. Yeah. So God cares more about the quality of our relationships and, and the quality of who we are becoming in our character more than the quantity of the things that we produce. Okay. And flourishing approach is quality or process. And the process productivity driven approach is product. So process versus product. Yes. So God cares more about the long term transformational journey that we're on with him in the process of that, just like an artist in their craft is cares deeply about the creative process and how that evolves more than the outcome of what is produced or sort of the over the overflowing thing that's accomplished at the end. This next one gave me pause and really made me ponder. In the flourishing approach, it's relational responsiveness and in the productivity approach, it's system efficiency. Yes. So to unpack that a little bit with the vineyard, when I, when I saw Dave, for example, and he was, rather than setting up a system that was the same for all of the vines and assuming the most efficient thing is just to water them all the same, to tend them all the same, to harvest at the same time every year, to prune at the same time every year on the calendar, that would be a lot more efficient as a system. His approach is much more relational. And seeing, okay, he's paying attention to even the moon cycles, the sun and what season the vine is in to respond to not only the surrounding relationships between the vine and its surrounding context and climate, but also even one vine right next to another one, it might be needed to be tended differently. So it's responding relationally to the attunement to each of the vines needs. Makes me think of a parent who has five kids or three kids. Yes. And, and you can't, you can't parent number two and number three, generally speaking, the way that you parented number one. That is true. Or at least that's been my experience. You've got to be attuned and treat them like individuals or you're going to actually do damage. So next one, the flourishing approach is interdependence and the productivity approach is independence. Yeah. So interdependence is trusting that it's more about the relationships between the vine and the branches is that's one interdependent relationship. But then the entire surrounding vineyard system of the other plants around it, the climate, the sun and moon and rain and all of these things have this reciprocal relationship with one another and that even cover crops, for example that are planted next to vines will infuse different nutrients that the vine needs. And, and so in a similar way, God has developed all of creation to be interdependent and that we are, we need reciprocity in our relationships with one another. That you can nourish me in a way that I need and I can nourish you in the way that you need. And it's very connected. Whereas independence in the vineyard would be saying this vine can just grow on its own. It doesn't need any other crops around it. It doesn't need any other, you know, tending of the vine dresser. It can do its own thing. And we've seen from vines that if you just leave them to grow on their own, they grow wild and they don't bear good fruit. I won't go through the whole list even though it's fascinating and it's on page 10 of the book. This, this matrix that you put there. But just a few more collaboration under the flourishing approach and hierarchy under the productivity approach. Yeah. So collaboration, if you think about even how the vines produce fruit, it's they with all fruiting trees and vines, there's flowering which is sort of cross pollination between the different parts of the branch branches. So that's self pollinating within itself, but it collaborates within the vine in that way versus hierarchy would say, you know, uh, even, even in a vine dresser's approach like it's a top down model where I'm going to kind of force my will onto the vine of what I want it to do. Whereas collaboration, the vine dresser actually looks at the vine and sees, oh, this is what it needs and I'm going to respond to it. And it gives, offers me fruit and I offer it tending. And it's this again, reciprocal, connected relationship. And then the last one I'll do is flourishing approach, rest as essential to sustainability. And in the productivity driven approach, rest as an obstacle to progress. That, that sounds really, really important. Yeah. So I think, you know, especially in our culture, we see rest as sort of this. Again, it's an obstacle, right. It's this thing that we want to avoid because it means that we're not getting work done, that we're not being efficient. And yet if you look at binds, if they don't have a time of dormancy, they actually can't produce fruit in the next growing year. And in fact, if you think about vines that are wine, that's frost, like created from frost, that that vine, if the fruit is allowed to hang after the harvest, it won't produce fruit the next year. So the sense that our life is a cyclical spiral and a cyclical rhythm where rest needs to be an essential part of that process for us to actually produce fruit for the long haul is sort of the thought there. So obviously all of these contrasts that are there in vine making and winemaking with grapes are invitations in the spiritual life and following Jesus to live that way. And my one thought is there's something really attractive about that. And then there's another part of me that goes, wow, that's really radical to do that because it requires, and you write about this in one chapter, it requires surrender to what I believe life should be about and toward that part of me that says, no, I've got to produce something, I've got to get results, I need to make my life count for something. Yeah, well, and I think a lot of this, you know, came to a head in my sabbatical and I write about this in the book. But just what was fascinating about the timing of meeting Dave was it was right before I took a sabbatical, which was this. And it was right during the pandemic, which was a very, also very interesting timing when the world had sort of this forced sabbatical to recognize how much I had been in sort of this forced rest, how, how much I had actually put my identity and attachment to my work as a sign of my own identity as A sign of my worth. And that not only did I need to rest, but I needed to detach from the work as a part of who I thought that I needed to be or who that I. Who I was. And so I think that this, it's. It's a painful invitation, right? Because like you said, it's hard to surrender that. It's hard to surrender that I could be. Who am I? Who am I without the things that I do, without my work? And what does it mean to abide in the vine? And just like the dorm. The vines in dormancy, where all of the fruit and all the leaves are sort of stripped away, and all that you can see are this barren branches clinging to this vine, and you see the essence of the vine as it is, and that you see that these branches connected to the vine, that that is the truest thing about them. And that for us, when we get everything else is stripped away, when all the performance, when all the producing, when all the activity is stripped away, who are we apart from all of that? And we have to re. Cultivate that intimacy and belovedness and belonging in God to remember, oh, that that's actually the essence. That is the essence of who I am, that a branch still remains a part of the vine, whether or not it's bearing fruit, it's still a part of the vine. And that's the truest thing about it. In those seasons of dormancy is that for an entire season or year, like in farming, where they leave a field fallow and allow it to regenerate. So sometimes I think, so dormancy is every year. It's a seasonal rhythm. So what's fascinating about it is it's basically, you know, here in Michigan, it's November to. Late April, early maybe. So that's like half the year where the vine is in dormancy. But there's some. Some vines that, you know, at the end of the dormant season when Dave goes to prune the vines, he will assess its level of health. And so vines that, for example, have grown their branches all the way up to the top of the trellis will get pruned back less, whereas vines that didn't grow up to the top of the trellis, he will take all of the fruit, fruit, and he'll prune it all the way back. And even when it tries to produce fruit that year, he'll take the fruit off so that it can heal and focus on its roots, which I find just fascinating because that's again, that's a season of saying, even though everything around this vine is going to grow and produce fruit. The vines next to it will. This vine in particular may have gone through things like winter damage or tractor blight, where it needs another growing season of just focusing on growing in its roots as nothing else external is happening other than just growing its roots. And I just think, whoa, for those of us who've experienced trauma or who have gone through a very difficult season of loss or who have gone through just maybe feel like they're stuck in that season, you know, where it seems like everybody around me is growing and producing fruit and like it should be growing season. Why am I not producing fruit? Maybe it's a sign that God is removing some of the pressure to produce something external for a time so that you can focus on healing and growing your roots in your relationship with him and growing in your inner life so that in the long term you could sustain healthy growth. I love that. And through all of your book, not surprising at all, because I know you a little bit that there's this very, very compassionate lens over all of this. So just like we started out, it's not punishment. It's not that you screwed up. It's not that you're not somehow doing enough for me, God would say. But it's actually a gift to take the pressure off. It's a gift so that you don't have to produce something that's not actually organic and growing. It's more like opening a. God wants the faucet to open and the water to flow versus standing there at the. At the well, pumping the well, trying to get something to come out. That's right. And so I've never really thought of that before. That it's about taking the pressure off. Yeah. And I think we put a lot of pressure. We put plenty of pressure on ourselves. The last thing we need is to feel like God is also putting pressure on us, you know, because we just feel that in our culture of the comparison to other people and their successes, you know, whether it's the. The growth chart of somebody else's ministry or the growth chart or somebody else's business, that we can feel like if we aren't growing exponentially in some external way, that we're a failure. And that's just not at all the way that God sees us. Not only is the. The fruit measurement very different than sort of this external metric of success, but it's also an invitation into this cyclical rhythm of abiding that is withdrawing and allowing and actually seeing that seasons of letting go of the fruit and Letting ourselves lay fallow, of letting ourselves descend into dormancy, into the roots of the inner life, is essential. And that actually, if we don't do those things, as John o' Donoghue writes, he says if we don't attend to the inner life, we lose the habit of soul, and our whole lives can become this external performance that's void of any kind of internal soul that fuels everything else, and that we lose touch with our truest selves, our truest voice and God's voice within us that we desperately need to recover and hear in times of silence and solitude and dormancy. It's interesting, the dormancy in the way that you describe that and especially the taking the pressure off, which is a gift and it's compassion, reminds me of the gospel reading yesterday in the Anglican Lectionary. And that was the story of John, where the angel comes to John and he says, I'm sorry, not John, who was Elizabeth's husband? Zechariah. Yeah, Zechariah. Sorry, John. John was their son. So, yes, in the. In the reading, the angel comes to Zechariah and he says, how is this going to happen? How is this going to be. And then it says that he. He, because he questioned God, made him mute. And the speaker, my priest, said that what if God made him silent? Not as a punishment, the way that the text seems to say it, but what if the silence was a gift? Because at his age, with all of the ways that he had lived his life, and with all of the dashed hopes that only in silence and contemplation for the next nine months could he actually take in all of what God was doing. And there was this sense of incredulity, but silence was the necessary way for him to be able to process it. And there again, I think one of the things I always try to encourage our listeners is to expect and to look for God's first response is compassion and mercy and kindness. And it might feel as if it's a, quote, season of dormancy, where we're being punished or we're somehow inadequately loving God or pursuing him or being faithful, but that all of the things that come toward us and that we experience are gifts. And it certainly doesn't feel that way, especially for those of us, as you alluded to, that have been through really, really hard seasons of trauma. But there's just that lens of, no, God's first movement and response is always one that's for us, that's attuned to us, that has his eye on us, just as we started out that. That the whole story of the vine and the branch really tells us what God is like. Yeah, well. And with that invitation into silence and sort of the. The removing of the pressure, like you said, there's something about, you know, I look outside right now, and here in Traverse City, everything is blanketed in snow. And there's something beautiful about the silent stillness of that. That the. There aren't birds making noise. You know, it's a very silent landscape. And what I love. Henry Nouwen says that the word is the instrument of the temporal world, the present world, but silence is the instrument of the eternal world. And that in order for a word to bear fruit, it must be spoken from the silent world of the eternal world within into this present world. And if we don't take those times to withdraw, if we don't receive that dormancy, like you said, as a gift from God, to relieve the pressure that we don't have to produce or perform right now, all we have to do is attend to God's presence with us, to his healing, to his voice, to listening. Those are the places where God does his most transformative work. Even in the. Even as St. John of the Cross says, you know, even in the most dark night of the soul, that is the most refining and transformative season where we. Where we participate with Jesus in his suffering of the cross. And that. That whole, as I kind of illustrate in the book, this cyclical rhythm mirrors the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. And that in seasons of sort of post harmony, harvest, dormancy and pruning, it's abiding with Christ in his death, allowing ourselves to sit with Jesus in the tomb of loss, in the tomb of waiting and silence, allowing him to meet with us there, to heal us there to speak his eternal words to us there in silence, that we become transformed. So that when the growing season happens and harvest happens, the overflow that comes out of us comes from God's presence within us. And the transformation that is deeply eternal and from these deep wells can make their way out. Otherwise, the fruit is really cheap wine. Right? It's just real cheap fruit that we're just constantly doing. Doesn't really come from a deep well, but it comes from the stress of feeling like we have to have something to show for ourselves. You know, it makes me think, Betty, that the productivity driven approach in some ways doesn't really require faith. And I don't mean faith as believing that God exists, but faith that if I do nothing except to be present to the vine, be present to Love to sit in the tomb with Jesus while nothing is happening and everything sits dead, that God is still active, that God is still bringing forth life, that over the Good Friday, Holy Saturday and then Easter, that in those in between days that something is happening and God is not absent in the midst of what feels like him forsaking us, but that it requires faith to be in the flourishing stage. Because it's not about what we do, it's not about us, it's not about our initiative or even strength. It's about the trusting. And so that vine branch relationship is really one of trust to anthropomorphize the branches, if you will, that the branches really have to trust the vine, that they're going to get everything they need. That's right. And that's a fascinating thing even about pruning itself. Because if you look at pruning from an external vantage point, what, what happens is, you know, Dave has shown me he cuts off the branches that bore fruit from the last harvest season, right? So these are past years harvest that these branches have produced. And it's a trust that there is a source on the inside of the vine that is eternal, that is bountiful, that is multiplicative, that if I let go and surrender and trust God cutting away these branches from past harvests, that there's something from within the roots that will come forth in its time and even will be greater than we could even put up with or manage in the growing season. So even after pruning, Dave still goes back and he's suckering because he's saying this internal resource is abundant and can we trust, like you said, have the faith that if we let go of what we can see, that God has this abundant resource, this abundant well within that's going to spring forth new life in its time and in its season. And. And I think the more I've gone through this cycle, so I even set up my yearly calendar rhythms around kind of the journey of the vine. So I've just finished an intense harvest season from launching the book and speaking and doing things like leading retreats. And so now as I'm kind of leaning into winter, just like the vines are, I'm slowing down, clearing my calendar, trying to enter into that rest with God. And the more I've done that, the more faith I can have, right? When we see, oh, this isn't a waste, right? This isn't a waste to spend this time to withdraw. This isn't to be silent, to be still, because I see the fruits of it later, right? And every time through, I'm amazed at how God meets me. And even, you know, the sabbatical I took in 2020, that was so difficult to withdraw and to again trust that God was going to still use me even after I, you know, cleared, wasn't answering emails, wasn't speaking, wasn't producing anything, but trust that whatever God was speaking to me in that time would one day yield fruit. Well, six years later, the overflow of that, right, is this work that God has, you know, created. And I think the more we can participate in that rhythm and we see the fruits of it later, I think the easier it gets to surrender and to trust, like you said, and to have the faith that God will meet us in those times. You used the word overflow in there, and there's no overflow. In

Psalm 23: 37:53

5, it says, My cup overflows, and there's no overflow apart from the green pastures, the quiet waters, and the walking through the valley. Those times of what feel like isolation and times of being, no pun intended, but kind of put out to pasture, if you will. The last topic I want to touch on, and then I want to give you a chance to talk about your online courses and your cohorts that you do around the art of vine making. But the chapter that was a little bit surprising to me and not like, oh, I can't believe she included that. But as I'm paging through, it's like, oh, the stress of ripening. I forget what the chapter was called, but you wrote about how there. There's actually in it, and it includes the dormancy and everything, but really that ripening of the fruit is there. And then you talk about the different kinds of stress that we experience. So talk about the stress of ripening first from a vine making, winemaking perspective. Yes. So the word for ripening is verasian, which is what the chapter is called. And yeah, from what I understand of Dave, my vine dresser friend, is there's this. It's the most astringent point in the vine because the vine is trying to grow, but it's also trying to ripen at that point. And it's stressful because there's, you know, limited energy that the vine can channel from the leaves, and it's trying to channel all of that energy into ripening grapes. And so actually, even the more stressed winemakers say that a. A struggling vine yields the best wine, which is just crazy to me that there's this stress that happens and it's this movement from growing for itself. To the growing and ripening fruit to give it away. Right? So it's this transition point even for our spiritual lives, between I'm spending all this time investing in the growth for myself or my community to how is God inviting me to then yield myself for the sake of others, those that are on the margins or those that are sort of needing God's welcome, needing his love. And it's the stress of becoming more like Jesus in. In the way that he has expressed himself to the world, which looks like suffering, co. Suffering with other people, right? It looks like leaning into empathy in places that people are in pain. It looks like giving up some time in our schedule to make space for somebody who's in need. Those are all stressful points. But I think sometimes when we think of stress, we think of it like overproduction stress. Like my calendar is so full because I've got so many things going on or I have so many tasks that I need to accomplish. But true, like good stress in ripening. Even, even from a psychological standpoint, if you think about you stress, you know, putting stress under your body for marathon training, right? That is good stress because it grows you and forms your body, right? As well as all different kinds of stress. Stress of the heart and, and like I said, caring for other people, those are the kinds of things that ripen good quality fruit that looks like and tastes like the kingdom of God and that looks like Jesus. That the world, when the world experiences fruit that has ripened out of that kind of stress, tastes it and says like, they've saved the best for last. This is, this is truly a taste of heaven on earth. I love that they've saved the best for last. And we're. We're meant to be that. That kind of compelling, winsome sense of, oh, wow, this I want, I want what they've got. So, Betty, talk about. We, we talked at the beginning about your website and you have put together online courses and you have cohorts and you have a lot of product that are your artwork and also your book on Advent. There's breath cards that you have so many things. But specifically for those who are listening to this podcast and who are going to get the book talk specifically about the courses and the cohorts because I think people are really hungry not just to get information and to read the book, but how can I be in a community, how can I participate in this with other people? Well, I love that you asked that because I think, you know, I know you know this, but I want to encourage listeners that True formation happens out of the right side of the brain. And I'm sure I know Michael's talked about this before. Right. Which is the character formation. All of the ways that we are transformed in the spiritual life mostly happen from these relational attachments. They happen from our imagination, our embodied experiences and encounters. And you can get that to an extent with a book, but far more so can you do that in. In community. And an easier way than bettydickinson.com is if you just go to the rdovinemaking.com that's all there, too. But basically my desire was to create these experiences and to lead people on a journey to really have these embodied encounters that the book talks about. So, you know, the. The biggest sort of experience I offer is called an Art of Vine Making Journey, which starts with a retreat. The we just had one here in Traverse City in October where we actually got into the vineyards and we had these conversations where people got to meet Dave, the vine dresser and have their minds blown in the same ways that my mind was blown every time I talked to Dave about what that means for the spiritual life and how he looks at the vine. And boy, the people that commented on that said, I just had all these beautiful embodied encounters with God through time in the vineyard, through time, you know, talking with Dave and seeing a different approach to vine making or from tending vines than what I had thought God was like. So it starts a retreat. You're, you know, connecting in a small group. And then we will meet quarterly throughout the year to go through the four online courses. And there's one course for each part of the book. And so we just went through our first intensive in November going through the Story of the vine, which all the course materials aren't so much lectures as they are embodied spiritual practices. So we have audio guided walks and visio divina meditations or imaginative prayer, and then there's reflection exercises and all kinds of things to help get in the right side of the brain to make these ideas and concepts tangible and applied in your life. And so you can do the journey, which is the. Starts with the retreat. We have another one coming up in Sonoma in May. We're going to do one in Colorado in 2027. So I'll have to connect with you about that. Yeah, and then. And then the courses, and then you can do them kind of on your own. But the best way to do it would be kind of in connection with a cohort. And we can do customized ones if you want to have your small group go through it. Too. So that sounds absolutely amazing to be able to meet with you, but also then to be able to go to the vineyard and to. To. To hear all of that. I think there's people that are just really hungry for that. Yeah, well, we don't have very many experiences like that. Right. We are so disconnected from the land. So it's. It's a beautiful invitation and I love taking people there. Yeah. And thank you for the call out about right brain, left brain we talk about here. And this is not original with me, but we change from bottom to top and right to left and how the world works. And this is the productivity driven approach is from top to bottom. I'm going to use my cortex and my ability to kind of apprehend the world and make things happen. And then we operate out of our left brain. But it's the right brain that allows us to experience the bigger picture, to receive, to attach. It's not just about logic versus emotion or logic versus creativity. So I'm so excited for that. And with your Advent series, I have both the breath exercises which are incorporated into the book. But then the book has the embodiment aspects and it's really unique because I'm in a season for 2026 of I'm really working on embodiment and connecting my mind and the faith that I've lived for so long to be much more grounded in my body. And so your book is really helpful toward that end and I just really appreciate your artistic right brained approach. It's so good talking with you. As we head into Advent. I wish you a blessed Advent and a Merry Christmas as that comes up. And Betty, just thank you for everything that you do and especially thank you for the art of vine making. Thank you, Michael. Thanks for having me on.