Episode 384 - Julianne & Michael John Cusick, "A Deeper Look Into Neurodiverse Marriages"

Welcome back to the Restoring the Soul podcast with Michael John Cusick. In this episode, Michael sits down for a thoughtful and deeply personal conversation with his wife of nearly 35 years, Julianne Cusick. Together, they explore the emerging world of neurodiversity, focusing on neurodivergent individuals, neurodiverse couples, and the impact these differences can have on relationships.

Drawing from Julianne Cusick’s extensive work, research, and recent conference presentations, they break down commonly misunderstood terms like neurodiversity, neurodivergent, and Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD). This conversation doesn’t just dwell on diagnosis—instead, it offers a new framework for understanding ourselves and our partners, emphasizing how assessment and awareness can bring clarity, freedom, and healing to relationships.

Transcript

0:00

Hi, everybody. Welcome back to the Restoring the Soul podcast. I'm Michael John Cusick, and today I am here in another conversation with my bride of almost 35 years, Julianne Cusick. Hey, Jules, welcome back to Hello. Hello. It's great to be back and having another conversation with you, especially about one of the topics I'm most fascinated with, which is neurodiversity and neurodiverse couples and neurodivergent individuals and neurotypical partners. And you've been doing a lot of reading, a lot of diving deep into this topic. You recently spoke at a major conference in Colorado Springs. And so I really want to hear what you're learning about neurodiversity and specifically how this impact impacts couples, because that's the bulk of the work that you've been doing. Okay, sure. Well, neurodiversity is a really hot topic nowadays. There's lots of new terms and distinction between terms. So if I may, I'll just give a couple definitions. Neurodiversity is the broad term talking about any structure in the brain, brain differences that exist among people. When we talk talk about an individual with neurodiversity, we would not say what I just said. We would actually call that individual neurodivergent or a person with neurodivergence. And then there's some distinguishment between whether we do identity first neurodivergent or person first person with neurodivergence. And depending on who you talk to in the community, it's really up to the neurodivergent individual's preference. But some people really like the identity first, that, for example, I'm an autistic person versus I'm a person with autism. And that brings up another question, which is somebody who is neurodiverse or neurodivergent? Um, they can be neurodivergent without being on the autism spectrum, but somebody who is on the autism spectrum is automatically considered neurodivergent. So those terms are not entirely interchangeable. So there can be some confusion about that. Would an example of that be somebody who has adhd, which is attention hyperactivity disorder, and they're not on the ASD spectrum with autism, but they are neurodiverse. Yes, that's a great example. People with certain learning disorders with ADHD or add, some TIC disorders, Rett syndrome, certain learning disabilities, they can all be considered being neurodivergent. And yet that does not automatically mean they are asd, and ASD is Autism Spectrum disorder. And let me Say a word about that. That is not the stereotypical framework of understanding that we might think of, like maybe a Rain man type of stereotype. ASD has three levels, Level one, two, and three. And level one is really what used to be called Asperger Syndrome. So it wasn't being covered by insurance under the diagnosis of Asperger's. And in the 2013 revision of the DSM, DSM 5, they took that out of the DSM and put in Autism Spectrum Disorder with three levels, level 1, 2, and 3. So ASD is the phrase that it's most commonly referred to now. So, so if you are asd, you are automatically neurodivergent, but you can be neurodivergent without being on the autism spectrum. So here's a question that some people might be thinking. We live in a world where there is an Alphabet title for everything. You know, ADHD and FBI and SOS and CIA. And that's become especially true with mental health issues. And as we'll talk about, there are many, many, many client experiences and presentations that are not actually disorders or things that are in the diagnostic manual, the dsm. So why does it matter to have all of this specificity and to have the clarity about the diagnosis as you're sitting with people? Why does that help? Well, it's not the diagnosis that helps. It's a framework for understanding themselves, a framework for the challenges in their relationship. And so, unfortunately, a lot of the terms include things like disorder or syndrome, with which pathologic. How do I say that? Pathologize. It pathologizes. And that's not what we intend to do. It's not what I intend to do, but it is part of what happens in the clinical world. And so as we're talking about this, as I'm talking about it, and you hear terms with disorder or syndrome, please know that my heart is that this is a framework of understanding. And if we miss neurodiversity in an individual, we're doing them a disservice in the counseling office. And if we're working with a couple that is neurodiverse, so much more. So are we doing them a disservice of not identifying this, naming it, and creating this framework of understanding? Because the research shows that that traditional marriage counseling that you would do with neurotypical couples is actually contraindicated for neurodiverse couples, and it can be really damaging to both the neurodivergent and the neurotypical partner. Well, we've seen that again and again in Intensives at restoring the soul, where people have been to counseling and they're doing really great therapies like emotionally focused therapy and other approaches that can really create connection. But because of the issues with perception and these other ways of presentation, it can really, really backfire. And of course, as we've talked about on other podcasts, that that's part of our story and part of my late life awareness of Asperger's or ASD level one for me. Yeah, yeah. And I'm really glad you said late awareness versus late diagnosis. In the world, in the counseling field and in research, it is called late diagnosis. And there's a lot of people in their 40s, 50s, 60s, and older who are getting quote, unquote, late diagnoses of autism level, level one, your autism spectrum disorder, level one, ASD1. And it really is a way to understand oneself. I want to backtrack to something you said about adhd. It's really interesting. You can have ADHD and not be on the spectrum. But in some research that I've been doing for the presentation that I just gave, it's so interesting. 70% of people with ADHD will eventually go on to be, quote, unquote, diagnosed with autism spectrum disorder. And a lot of times people on the spectrum, they'll be diagnosed with the garden variety. Depression, anxiety, maybe a mood disorder. Very common. There's eating disorders and sleep disorders. And when I see that cluster of symptoms, instead of saying, oh, here's one more disorder, because that really makes the person feel like there's something wrong with them, it's like, well, how about instead of all of these other labels, we just look at this one framework of this umbrella of Autism spectrum disorder, and let's look at some common traits and characteristics and does this resonate with you? And so many times individual feel like I'm reading their mail, like, how did I know that they struggled with this? Or how did I know they've had these thoughts about the world or about themselves? And what I want to do is like de pathologize autism and autism spectrum disorder. And I hate that it's disorder, but that we de pathologize ASD and realize that it's a structural difference and a functional difference in the brain. And with it come so many gifts and talents that are above average and the world we wouldn't have the world that we live in without people that are neurodivergent, that have these brains, that they function a little bit differently, they see things differently than the average person. They. They are Incredibly creative and bright, usually associated with a very high iq. So there's so many strengths and we don't really the language, there's a movement of strength based language when it comes to neurodiversity and asd. And despite the way things are labeled, I just want to say that I really do have a strength based approach to understanding, dealing with, addressing neurodiversity, especially in a couple's relationship. So what I've heard you say is that the rationale and the importance of assessment and diagnosis and we could simply say clarity about what's happening is it gives people a framework for understanding themselves and for understanding their marriage and then perhaps implications or directions for what to do about it. Yes, absolutely. And I will say being assessed for ASD or neurodiversity, especially for asd, there's not one clinical test that says you are or aren't on the spectrum. And so I've met with people that I very clearly feel are neurodivergent and yet they've sat down with a clinician and done a series of interviews. And because they're high functioning, because they can mask, which is appear neurotypical, which from childhood a neurodivergent person is trying to fit in. And so masking starts at a very, very young age. And many people don't even know that they're doing. But because if someone can maintain eye contact or they're well spoken, some clinicians will automatically rule them off of being on the spectrum. Well, I'm sitting with somebody right here who can maintain eye contact and who's very, very, very verbal. And yet that was missed for many, many, many years, this framework of understanding for asd. So it's a tricky, it's tricky to assess through a diagnostic tool. So I find that in assessing there's some quizzes and some traits that are very common that I will go over and review with people to see, hey, is this resonating with you? And one of the things that's really important, if you're talking to a clinician or you're doing some online assessments, it's really important to include a partner or whoever is the closest person to you because of that masking factor and because of the difference in perception, I wish I could pop up on this screen, this image that depending on how you look at it, it could be a duck or a bunny. And maybe we can add that into the podcast notes. But it shows the difference of perception. It's not right and wrong, it's just different. And when that difference in perception, sometimes that neurodivergent individual is seeing themselves or their partner different than how they're being perceived from their partner. And so it's like, well, which is it? And having a neurotypical perspective of someone really close to them, maybe in their intimate partner relationship, they can see things that the person themselves can't see. And this isn't to label or to judge. Again, we're trying to get to, hey, we're on the same page. It's learning a new language or learning a new way of understanding each other. In the dynamics between us, then there's so much clarity. And with clarity and knowledge, there comes freedom and healing and growth in individuals and in relationships. So if I'm getting this right, and I want to use an example, if I am getting it right, what you're saying is that the neurotypical partner ought to be included in the assessment process. They should be minimally interviewed and engaged. And also, we've done this. And 28 years ago, I met with Dr. George Dorie, who has passed on, but he was an assessment psychologist. And you came with me. This was before I started my second graduate degree, and I wanted to know what was going on in my brain. And so he did a whole battery of tests, and one of them was an extensive ADHD assessment. And I remember I took it, and it was like 70%. And you took it as if you were me, and it was like 125%. And people may laugh about that, but that's really data, right? Yes, yes. And it's the difference in perception of just how you perceived yourself. And I want to say, all those years ago, when we did that, ASD didn't come up, Asperger's didn't come up. ADHD did. I think there might have been a mood disorder diagnosis as well. And we know you've shared you struggle with depression and anxiety. We found out later you have a sleep disorder. You've talked online on the podcast about struggle with weight and food. And so when there's a cluster of these kind of attributes so many times, it's a lot easier to have one diagnosis than it is to have six or 16. And then that individual. And I think you felt this way. Correct me. You know, speak into this. But, you know, would you rather have, you know, six or eight different diagnoses or just one framework of understanding yourself? Yeah, I'll comment on that. I remember we were doing a coaching session for neurodiverse couples, and afterwards, I asked the coach, I said, you know, here's my list of diagnoses and there were six or seven of them going back to adolescence and, and you know, what happens to all of that? And it was the first time I heard this idea that ASD is like an umbrella and all of those kind of come underneath it. And that was a huge relief. So I have two questions, but I want to ask one first that you touched on regarding the spouses being engaged in the assessment process. At least I'd say three or four times in my work with couples I've done an assessment and it's suspected by the spouse and potentially me, that the client, let's just say it's a male, is neurodivergent. He takes the assessment and says, I don't think I am, but this is exactly what my partner is. Yes. Oh, that's a great one. Yeah. It's really, really common for neurodivergent individuals to not see their neurodivergence and to actually see their partner's neurotypicalness as neurodiversity. And so it is very common for a person with neurodiversity to resist that diagnosis or framework of understanding. It's very common for them to project that onto their partner. And this can get really touchy when you think about a therapist working with a couple and two people are in agreement and the third isn't. Right. That's the potential for triangulation, which can be very damaging in a therapeutic setting. And so the therapist really has to build that alliance with the neurodivergent individual and build trust to say, you know, I'm not against you, I'm for you. And this is what makes sense. And it may seem like I'm quote, unquote Sid, but I'm really not. I'm objective. I tell people that I see myself as an interpreter, that I understand neurodivergence and I understand neurotypical processes and language. And in most times than not, that neurodivergent individual will come around and they will see it in. I like to frame it in a strength based way so that they feel affirmed in their gifting and in their strengths. But there are times, and this is really, really hard in a coupleship where that neurodivergent individual, because one of the traits, one of the characteristics is that they can be very rigid and so they can dig in their heels and it can become a real power struggle. And so that's when we back off from trying to diagnose or get on the same page with that. And we have to Work very. I have to work very differently in a situation like that. Yeah. And we can also add in therapist humility that we're not always 100% correct. Often we're going with hunches. And that unlike medicine, where you can take a blood test to show an infection or a blood cell count, psychology and mental health doesn't work the same way. And we've talked a lot about how there's. You've already said that there's no single test for assessing. But will you talk a little bit about the Aspie quiz? Because I found that frustrating because it speaks in terms of percentages and likelihood as opposed to a yes or a no. But that for the people that I've directed for assessment, they found that mostly a helpful resource. And it's free. Yes, it is free. It's free online. It's the Aspie quiz. It's an international test. I think it's in 40 different languages or countries. I can't remember which country it's out of, either Australia or the uk. I think it's Australia. And I will have, when I work with couples, I will have both people take it for themselves and each other. Oftentimes the neurodivergent person will test as neurotypical and when their spouse assesses as if answering for them, they'll score them and it'll be a little higher. Sometimes it'll still show neurotypical. When I believe there is neurodiversity there. And what I look at then is what are the chronic patterns in the relationship, the unsolvable problems, and what's the percentage like? We know there are unsolvable problems in marriage, but when like 70% of the relationship, 80% of the relationship is unsolvable problems, then that makes me look a little more under the hood. And I also use my own personal assessment of how I interact with that individual, how they are one on one with me versus what kind of shifts or changes happen when the three of us meet together, when the partner's in the room. And there are other interview type questions, history, personal history, family history. As a matter of fact, the one test that is out there is really not a test. It's a like 40 page interview. And so depending on how somebody perceives themselves and their experiences, it can really slant the interview process, which is why it's really important as a part of the process to have close friends, family members and a partner if there is one involved in that process of interviewing. Thanks for commenting on all of that. So that's theaspequiz A S p I e theaspequiz.com and be forewarned that the website looks like it's done in 1990 on a Radio Shack 1000 computer. And I think it was done by somebody who's highly autistic who likes make their own computers in their garage. But it is statistically very significant and accurate. It's what I. What I've understood. Yes. And in my recent research, I found out just how high the clinical accuracy is of the Aspie quiz. It's a. It's a minimum of 70% and sometimes even higher. So we can trust that, but not trust that alone. It's really important to have some trained eyes. Let's come back to something you brought up close to the beginning. And that's this idea of masking something that I'm aware of since I was very, very, very young, was. I was a mimic. I was the youngest of five kids. I did impersonations. I could walk into any situation and immediately act and perform in a way that I thought I was expected to be. And for the most part that helped me for quite a long time. And then eventually it began working against me. But I think of masking, and I think this is important for people to understand. Masking is not deception. It's not an intentional sense of I'm going to walk into a situation or a relationship and pretend to be somebody I'm not. I think of it on two levels and you tell me if you agree and then expand on this one. It's a learned response. And secondly, from a really health perspective, it's an attachment strategy. It's my way of trying to connect and attach and belong by acting how I see other people acting, because I think that's normal. It's not just trying to fit in, but like I somehow realize I'm a step outside of the circle and I want to be in the circle. Am I getting that right? Yes. The word that comes to my mind, and I like that you use the word attachment, but is assimilation. When you think about my grandparents immigrated and so they have to assimilate to the culture, which is taking on the norms, taking on the behaviors. And that's what you're saying as a young child that you did. Only it wasn't necessarily a different culture, it was a different neurological framework. And you were quote, unquote, trying to assimilate into what was the norm. And so it's very unconscious. And I see it also as a survival mechanism if, if that neurodivergent boy or Girl is left out at school, teased, bullied, they're going to naturally try to fit in to avoid those negative experiences, which I could go on a rabbit trail about neurodiversity and post traumatic stress syndrome, because a lot of neurodivergent individuals also have ptsd. And it's because of these negative experiences that they've had. It's because of things like masking and trying to fit in or not feeling understood that really can affect their psychological functioning, their emotionality, their interior well being, if you will. It definitely impacts their nervous system. I think another major reason why this is important to understand is that we saw this with our kids. And I'm sure there are many listeners who, even if they don't have neurodiverse children, kids are at school all day and then they come home and they melt down. But if kids are masking, then that means there's a tremendous amount of emotional and psychological and nervous system energy, what we call the neurological budget that's spent. And then they get home and. And it's homework time or chore time, and they come apart. So in marriages, what has been the case for us? And until I knew about my neurodivergence, this happened so much. And that is that I'm counseling all day, I'm attuned, I'm tuned in, I'm empathic, I'm making eye contact, and then I come home at the end of the day. And it's not just I had a hard day and I'm tired. It's above and beyond that. It's that the budget in my nervous system has been shot, a circuit breaker has been thrown, because this is how I act in the world. And then I'm much more sensitive, reactive, potentially defensive, et cetera. So where and how do you see that playing out in couples, beyond part of our history? Well, I want to first address children and their emotional budget. It's hard being a kid, and it's especially hard being a kid nowadays, especially with social media and technology. And those neurodivergent children are what I call holding it together all day or trying to appear normal, trying to fit in, be in the norm. And when they come home, they're exhausted from holding it together all day. And so that meltdown at home is really a sign of their safety. They're allowing themselves to let down. And yes, there's tantrums, there can be meltdowns, tears, anger. So that looks a little different in the adult. I mean, if you came home and stomped your feet and screamed and Had a temper tantrum. You know, we might be like, what's going on here? But it. But how it mostly manifests in a neurodiverse relationship is when that neurodivergent individual comes home, they don't want to talk to their partner. They don't want to engage about their day. How was your day? Fine. What did you do? Same old thing, you know. And it's like talking to a teenager where, you know, they've got one word answers, and it can feel personal to the neurotypical partner. It's not nine times out of 10 that neurodivergent needs to just take 15 or 20 minutes. Maybe go to a place in their home where it's quiet. Maybe they put on noise canceling headphones. Maybe they play a game on their phone, but they do something to regulate their nervous system. Imagine if you were out shopping and you're just spending $100 bills all day long, and you only have $1,000 in your checking or in your pocket. When you came home, you know, it was empty. So it's the same way with the neurodivergent bank account. If. Right. That budget that you talked about, that emotional budget, is they need to have space to refill and refuel, and then there's a better chance at engaging. Now, we've also seen the opposite of that, where sometimes. So what we just described sounds like a nervous system that at the end of the day is very much in the parasympathetic mode of freeze and a dorsal vagal shutdown where they're collapsing in on themselves, that's part of the neurological reality. But then there's people that deal with that being exhausted from the day and having their neurological budget exhausted, where they need to vent. And they might have a kind of logaria where they are just talking and talking and talking and talking. And even though there's not any attunement or responsiveness because they're not letting anybody have a word in edgewise that's somehow calming and soothing to them. Yes, because they're offloading everything that they've carried all day. And if they're a verbal processor, it helps them to, quote, unquote, get it off their chest. Right. By verbally expressing it. One of the dynamics I've seen, not mentioning any names, but there can be pressured speech, a louder volume, a monotone questions, can be kind of rapid fire. There's an intensity that's felt, can be a stream of negative, like dumping. So, yes, and that's the other thing. When we're talking about neurodiversity. It's not just one size fits all, many times it's the exact opposite of what the example is. So I'm really glad that you brought that out, that it's not just hey, I've got to go decompress for 15, 20 minutes before I engage. Sometimes it's almost it is the opposite of I've got to dump all of this verbal processing up of my day before I can settle into like a calmer neurological state of being present. Yeah, both exist and both exist in the same person. Julianne, thanks for this conversation. We're going to have at least one more, maybe two more where we talk about neurodiversity and the impact on the neurotypical spouse, which is a kind of trauma. And then we're going to talk about different experiences and ways that neurodivergent individuals present themselves and we'll pick that up in another conversation. But thanks for this. We'll talk to you soon, everybody. Thanks. Bye.