Episode 390 - Mark Batterson, "Gradually Then Suddenly"

Welcome to another episode of Restoring the Soul with Michael John Cusick. In this conversation, Michael sits down with Mark Batterson, the celebrated pastor of National Community Church in Washington, D.C., and multi-time New York Times bestselling author. Together, they dive deep into the inspiration and lessons behind Mark’s latest book, "Gradually Then Suddenly: How to Dream Bigger, Decide Better, and Leave a Lasting Legacy."

Drawing from three decades of ministry, Mark Batterson shares stories of setbacks, perseverance, and the long, often unseen journey toward meaningful transformation. The episode explores the power of slow growth in a world obsessed with quick fixes, the value of legacy and "cathedral thinking," and the importance of staying humble and hungry over the long haul.

With candid reflections, practical wisdom, and a few memorable one-liners, this episode offers rich encouragement for anyone seeking to influence others, live with deep conviction, and play the long game of faith and leadership. So grab a cup of coffee and join us for a heartfelt discussion on dreaming, deciding, and leaving a legacy that lasts.

Mark Batterson serves as the Lead Visionary of National Community Church (NCC) in Washington, DC. NCC also owns and operates Ebenezers Coffeehouse, The Miracle Theatre, the DC Dream Center, the Capital Turnaround, and Culture House as gathering places for the community and funding for Kingdom causes. Mark also serves as Lead Visionary for The Dream Collective, which equips and supports dreamers who long for revival in the church, reformation in the kingdom, and renaissance in culture.

Mark holds a Doctor of Ministry degree from Regent University and is the author of 25 books including the New York Times bestselling The Circle Maker as well as In a Pit with a Lion on a Snowy Day, Wild Goose Chase, Double Blessing, Whisper, and, most recently, A Million Little Miracles and The Best Worst Day Ever, a children’s book he wrote with his daughter, Summer. Mark is married to Lora, and they live on Capitol Hill. They have three children: Parker, Summer (married to Austin), and Josiah.

Transcript

Michael John Cusick 0:00

Hey everybody, welcome to the Restoring the Soul Podcast. I'm Michael, and today in the studio on the podcast is Pastor Mark Batterson. Hi, Mark. Welcome. Hey, Michael, good to be with you. I could read a long, long, long biography. We're going to put that in the show notes, but you're a pastor in Washington, D.C. at National Church. You are a multi, multi-multi, uh, New York Times bestselling author. And I know that you're just a great brother. Uh, when we were together at your church at the Connections Conference last November, Kurt Thompson uh had this crazy idea. We had never met each other, but we taught a mini class together. So wasn't that fun? It really was. It was uh it was like improv theater, wasn't it? It was. That's actually a really good description of it. And um, the part I appreciated about you was we got to pick on you a little bit because you know Kurt wanted it to have that therapeutic feel to it. So, you know, I just kept asking, well, how how do you really feel? kind of thing. So thanks for agreeing to be on the show. Your your newest book came out in January, and I've got it right here. I'm gonna hold it up. It's called Gradually, Then Suddenly, How to Dream Bigger, Decide Better, and Leave a Lasting Legacy. So let's just start at the beginning. There's a Hemingway quote, and one of the characters is asked, How did you go bankrupt? Well, two different ways, gradually, then suddenly. And as soon as I read that quote, I've I've heard it before, but I forgot the context of it. I thought, number one, that'll preach, right? Yeah. But then the other thing was that sounds really powerful for everything that I've done and all of our listeners think about with transformation, that it doesn't happen overnight, that it's the long obedience in the same direction. So what was happening in you, in your heart, and in your life that led you to take that idea and unpack it?

Mark Batterson 2:01

Yeah, Michael, I think we just celebrated our 30th anniversary pastoring National Community Church in DC. And sometimes you hit inflection points where, yeah, this is the moment to write this book. That the first five years, nothing remarkable about it. It really was just planting and plowing. And we tend to overestimate what we can do in a year or two, underestimate what God can do in 10 or 20 or 30. And so this particular book, I just felt like, yeah, this is the moment. Let's mark this moment. And it really is amazing when I look at my life and really every dimension of it, almost everything happens gradually, then suddenly. And uh, so it just felt like this was the moment.

Michael John Cusick 2:55

I know that this word can be overused in Christian circles, but it feels a little bit prophetic to me in the sense that our culture is absolutely enamored with the quick hit, the big program, sign up for the six-week course. It will change your life. I mean, aren't you tired of hearing the word game changer or that phrase or you know, life changing? Did it really? So were you aware of that when you wrote the book and was that part of the intention?

Mark Batterson 3:25

It really was. I'm drawn to uh long obedience in the same direction. I I the the latest and greatest doesn't scratch the itch for me anymore, Michael. Show me someone who's been in the fight, uh, whatever that is, for you know, a lot of years, but maintain their integrity and I might add humility and authenticity. And that's who I really want to hang out with. Uh you know, that that little phrase, long obedience in the same direction, of course, is begged, borrowed, and stolen from Nietzsche. But then a guy named Eugene Peterson wrote a book by that title, uh, I think in the 80s. It's not sexy. It really is. In fact, I would probably say it's sweaty. It's blood, sweat, and tears. And I think we've lost a little bit of that. We want things to happen at the speed of light, but they they generally happen at the speed of a seed that has to take root before it can bear fruit. And so um I understand emerging generations, like we we kind of want twice what our parents had in half the time, but I I think it's about playing the long game. And it really is just a reminder. Hey, you you gotta have long vision, and and it's about creating a long legacy, which I think is a little bit of a paradigm shift these days.

Michael John Cusick 4:57

Yeah. You're in your mid-50s, mid-50s to late 50s, and I'm guessing that you wouldn't have been able to write this book when you were in your 30s or your forties. Say say a little bit about that, because you're nodding your head immediately going, nope, I couldn't.

Mark Batterson 5:12

Yeah. I I wouldn't have written it even 10 years ago. Uh you know, I think there's something that you you have to almost like a fruit that has to ripen. You you can't really rush it. Uh there are some things that just I needed they needed to stand the test of time. And so yeah, I think uh w wisdom is more like the crock pot uh than the microwave. And I I still have so much to learn. Uh, you know, I'd be the first person to say I'm a data point of one. The more I know, the more I know how much I don't know. But you you lead something for 30 years, you pick up a a a lesson or two or three. And so many of those are embedded into the book. And um and I just I tip my cap. I've got a spiritual father who's 83. We hang out a lot. I've got mentors who are in their 80s. I just like people who have made a lot of trips around the sun, and I have a great deal of respect for those kind of people. And so uh it's more battle-tested and hard-earned than just uh a trending hashtag, if you will.

Michael John Cusick 6:36

Yeah, and you talked about this at the subtitle, How to Dream Bigger, Decide Better, and Leave a Lasting Legacy. Those first two parts about dreaming bigger and deciding better, and this is not a criticism. I think it's actually something that you you held a balance that was really extraordinary in the writing itself, is that when people hear that dream bigger and decide better, it does feel like here's this recipe for self-improvement, but then you hear the phrase lasting legacy, and it's like that's about the long term. And I am relatively new to your books. I've known of your books, but I didn't start reading your books until I met you. I had all of Dallas Willard's books on my shelf, and I couldn't read them. I couldn't get through them. And then I finally got to sit down with Dallas and have coffee and have a conversation, and then it just became easy. So um the first thing I want to say is that this book is actually a book with depth. Uh, there's a lot of books on the shelves that they're a mile wide and they're interesting and maybe even fun and fast paced, but they don't go very deep. And I don't think depth is in and of itself the point. But if you can communicate really important truths and to have that be deep so that people have to digest it, then that's really a home run. So you're obviously a great writer because you've sold, you know, millions and millions of books, but I thought that this book it there was a surprising amount of depth to it that I thought um, and I think can only be written from the vantage point of a man who has lived life well, who has had some suffering in his life, who has made some mistakes and had some success, but it came from a deep place inside of you. So thank you for all that. I told you before the interview that I did not finish the book yet because I can in about 15 minutes or 20 minutes, I can spend with a book and say that I've read it and pretty much say back everything inside of it. And your book uh is worthy of a lot more attention than that.

Mark Batterson 8:43

Well, that's very kind. And as someone who really likes to eat ice cream slow and savor it and enjoy it, I take that as a tremendous compliment. Um and, you know, Michael, I I think uh life is too short not to keep it real. I mean, our first attempt at church planning was a failed attempt, and it was so embarrassing, but it's one of the best things that ever happened to us. Uh the cure for the fear of failure is not success. It's failure in small enough doses that you build up an immunity to it. And so I'm grateful for that failed church plant. And then I felt called to write it 22, but I didn't write a book until 35. And it was like this dream deferred that I actually started to despise my birthday because it felt like an annual reminder of a dream deferred. But looking back on it, I'm grateful because if I had written a book at 22, I would have had to write a book at 23 to retract what I said at 22. So I'm a guy that not even a naturally gifted writer, in fact, took the GRE at 22 and it showed a low aptitude for writing. So I read 3,000 books before writing one. And so it's kind of the old school approach that no one gets a 20% discount on the 10,000 hour rule. Uh you have to pay your dues, no shortcuts, no cheat codes. And that's why I'm a big believer like enjoy the journey. Like it the goal of accomplishing a dream isn't just accomplishing a dream, it's who you become in the process. And so a lot of that is is woven in. And then I think all truth is God's truth. Everyology is a branch of theology. So I really try to weave some of that in. And uh, but I appreciate those kind words. I I think uh the best books are ones that you read slowly and then and then you enjoy them so much when you get to the end notes, you actually follow those rabbit trails. At least that's how I read. And uh so I'm I'm glad you haven't finished the book quite yet.

Michael John Cusick 11:02

Thank you. Thank you. I'm gonna keep going and I'm gonna recommend it to others. So when you've gone through seasons of your own life where it's it's the gradual and the suddenly isn't coming, um, what was God like in the most recent instance of that? What was God forming in you? Because again, you're very, very successful by all measures, and yet I also know that you don't become the kind of person that I've experienced you to be without just ongoing gradual and not a lot of suddenly. So in those seasons, what is it that you've learned in particular that came out in the book? But I'd like to hear kind of from a uh, even though it's one of the many stories in the book, just referring to your own journey. Yeah.

Mark Batterson 11:47

Well, one of our core values as a church, something that kind of comes out of my life is if you stay humble and stay hungry, there's nothing God can't do in you or through you. And so you can actually do the will of God and God can oppose it because he opposes the proud. So I'm a I've always felt like don't don't worry about the outcomes. And this is hard because I I'm a I'm a three on the Enneagram, so I tend to be kind of a performer achiever, always thinking about what's next. But I've really had to learn just what what what Michael Jordan would call the love of the game. Like you you gotta, in fact, it's interesting when uh John Wooden, the famous coach, retired, he was asked what he missed most, and it wasn't the championships. He said practice. And so I think it's the intrinsic motivation of Michael, I love God's word. Now I love teaching it, that's the end product, but man, I love reading it, studying it. Um I I love the spiritual disciplines. I I yeah, I wrote a book on prayer, and the Lord has answered some pretty remarkable prayers, but you know what? I enjoy talking to my Heavenly Father. So I think I think what I've tried to do is really focus on my own personal spiritual growth. And, you know, long before God grows a church or grows a counseling practice or or grows a business, I think he wants to grow a leader. Leadership starts with self-leadership. So this is me kind of unpacking some of the behind the scenes. And, you know, before a book was even published, I had been writing for years and years and years. So it's more about uh enjoying the actual process of the things that God has called me to. And uh, and then you leave you leave the results to God.

Michael John Cusick 13:59

Yeah, you tell so many wonderful stories, just as far as along as I am, and I've I've skimmed through the end, um, but about how some of that success came forward. Will you tell the story of how you and probably your wife and a and a group of people said that you wanted to give a certain percentage of the income from your book and what happened then? Yeah.

Mark Batterson 14:24

And and it's always hard to share really personal stuff. You know, finances are such a personal thing. But I before I wrote my sixth book, which was really the breakout book, The Circle Maker, almost as a grand gesture, I felt like the Lord was going to bless it and bless it beyond what we would want to take as income. And so we actually created a foundation and said, uh, Lord, let's go 50-50 on this one and see what you do. And so one of our goals is to reverse tithe someday, to live off of 10%, give 90%. And that takes a lot of um financial stewardship, but also just the Lord's blessing. But Michael, I think the heart behind that is that joy is found on the giving side of life. Uh, that it can't just be about accumulating. In fact, I would go way back to when we set some life goals. And at first, just to be honest, we had set some getting goals. And then the Lord really convicted me and said, why don't we flip this and set giving goals? And that changed our mindset. And so uh one one of the great joys is not just uh any kind of income that books would produce, that that's fleeting. And and we we don't get to take any of that with us, anyways. Um, do you do your giving while you're living? And so it really has been fun over the years to not only write books that impact people's lives, but then to take the income that that generates and give it to the kingdom causes that we care about, you know, and so that may be prison fellowship. My wife serves on the board of that wonderful organization. Uh, it may be the church that we have the joy of leading, but we really enjoy and find great joy in playing what I would call the giving game. And uh, in my experience, you can't outgive God. And uh and it's not just about uh dollars and cents. I'm just so grateful for joy unspeakable, for peace that passes understanding. I want to make sure that I'm investing my time, talent, treasure in anything that's near and dear to the heart of God, and God has a way of honoring that.

Michael John Cusick 16:57

You talk about legacy, and I mentioned that that's in the subtitle, and with that you link this idea of cathedral thinking. Will you unpack what that is? I love that idea.

Mark Batterson 17:09

You know, I think it's the uh Cologne Cathedral that, man, took about 500 years to build, give or take. And we don't think that way anymore. I mean, we think we're long-term thinking if we have a three-year plan. Uh I think cathedral thinking is this idea of doing what we do for the third and fourth generation. And so just as we drink from wells we didn't dig, are we digging wells for the next generation? So, as an example, Michael, we uh we own a city block in D.C. It's where we met for the first time and we're a part of that conference together. We have an acre and a half of roof deck, but it's a building that's 134 years old. We dug 109 micropiles 40 feet deep to reinforce the original footers of the building so we could unlock the roof deck. Now, here's the catch. We don't have any plans on building on top of this building, but the next generation might. And so we felt like if we're gonna play the long game, let's set up future generations to stand on our shoulders. And I think that's that is cathedral thinking. It's thinking not just in terms of my lifetime, but even as a new grandfather, thinking about future generations and how we can set them up. So long story short, legacy is not what we accomplish. Legacy is what others accomplish because of us.

Michael John Cusick 18:47

Oh, I love that. Say that again. And by the way, for anybody listening, and this is your first time to hearing Mark Batterson, this is what you do. You have these one-liners that are not cheesy things. They're like they make you stop and want to write it down and say that again about legacy. Go ahead and say that again.

Mark Batterson 19:04

Well, legacy is not what we accomplish, legacy is what others accomplish because of us. And that's my way of also tipping my cap to uh generations that have gone before us. And and that would be family members, but also, you know, I have an 83-year-old spiritual father named Dick Foth. And Michael, I know I wouldn't be who I am or where I am without borrowing his wisdom and during critical moments, even with decisions that we've made over the years, uh, I'm I'm so grateful for uh the collective wisdom of previous generations. It was uh Edgar Allan Poe who wrote that little poem uh is all that we see or seem, but a dream within a dream. And so I really view it as whatever God's doing in and through me is really a dream within a dream, you know, tip of my cap to my mom and dad, but also my father-in-law and mother-in-law who planted and pastored a church for 31 years. And so anything God does through this church is really a tip of the cap to what God did in and through them planting a church way back in 1967. So I want to be someone who is careful to give honor where honor is due.

Michael John Cusick 21:10

What would you say as a pastor to the person who is uh they they feel like they've not had a suddenly? They're trying to be faithful, they're living that long obedience in the same direction, and the dream never happens, or along the way, their dream is shattered.

Mark Batterson 21:27

Ah Well, I think one of the things that I would say up front is you know, very few people will influence thousands or millions of people, very few people. Uh, but we may influence one person who influences far more. And so I would say to every mom and dad out there, man, the influence you have on your kids is incalculable. So, Michael, some people feel like they're not living their dream, but what they don't realize is they're actually having a profound influence on the next generation. So let's not be too quick to uh keep score on this side of eternity. Uh you know, I I think um I had a grandfather that passed away when I was six years old, but his legacy lives on in me. There have been moments in my life where the Holy Spirit has said, Mark, the prayers of your grandfather are being answered in your life right now. In fact, I bet anybody listening. You can think about blessings that you did nothing to deserve. And my hunch is in eternity, uh, God will connect some of those dots because we tend to think right here, right now, God is thinking nations and generations. And so just an encouragement that I I bet you're making more of a difference than what you think. And uh maybe, maybe even the dream isn't really God's ultimate plan for your life. I'm not saying give up on it. I'm not saying walk away from it. But in my experience, you you have to kind of white knuckle. You need long vision, but you you also just need to be faithful day in and day out. And if we're faithful uh with the little things, in fact, let me say it this way: if we do little things like their big things, God has a way of doing big things like their little things. So so stay focused uh on the little things.

Michael John Cusick 23:41

Yeah, I appreciate you saying that, that that um that our dream might not be God's ultimate thing for us. And I think there's also this danger in the social media world that we live with the shoulds, that this is what my life should look like. I should have this perfect life, or I should have this perfect ministry, and that's just not often the case. So um you talk about convictions and convictions versus just cultural trends and the shifting winds, and you talk about decisions. Those are both kind of common words that yeah, convictions, decisions, those are important, but how you unpack that is really rich. I love your humor, by the way, and the story. So talk a little bit about the importance of convictions and decisions and how that plays into this long game. Yeah.

Mark Batterson 24:33

Uh Crawford Loritz, I quote him in the book. He he said something that we were just at a dinner together and he dropped this gold on us. He said, When you're born, you look like your parents. When you die, you look like your decisions, which I just think is such a fun, fun, playful way almost of uh of thinking about it. And so I think the most important decisions that we're ever gonna make are pre-decisions. They're the decision we make before we have to make the decision. And so, in a sense, you only make a few major decisions. You spend the rest of your life managing those decisions. So destiny is not a mystery, destiny is a decision. And the good news is you're probably one decision away from a totally different life. You just need the courage to make that decision. So, you know, I think um hopefully the book helps people kind of process and challenge, hey, what what are some hard decisions that maybe just maybe I need to make? And then the convictions, Michael, you know, I'm really tempted to flip the script here and say, what are what are your core convictions? What are the, what gets you up early in the morning, what keeps you up late at night? But I I think in a world where we just cancel so quickly and there's so much shaming and blaming and even faming, uh, I I think you better not lead by peer pressure, popular opinion, or political correctness. You've got to know that you have convictions that this is how I'm gonna lead. And I I sure hope that those convictions are uh biblically informed. And uh and so I I uh yeah, I think being a person of conviction is all too rare these days.

Michael John Cusick 26:43

Yeah, so along those lines, I'm sure this had a lot to do with your leadership and your vision, but how did your church arrive at a place of a conviction where you would go to such length of putting in those pillars to be able to build up the roof just for the purpose of legacy? How did legacy become a conviction? Because I don't hear that ever in leadership structures.

Mark Batterson 27:08

You know, I think it was modeled. Like I just had mentors that really invested in my life, and I'm like, okay, we we need to return this favor. So part of it is a mindset that I think every pastor is an interim pastor, and uh and so I want to make sure that whatever we're doing is is kind of setting up others. And and so um we we often say uh we're we're not trying to build a church, we're trying to bless a city to the third and fourth generation. And and so, Michael, one of the things I talk about in the book was a really hard decision that, you know, five years ago, we were a multi-site church with eight campuses, and I felt like the Lord said, do more things that don't have your name on it. And we started launching campuses, and that means waving goodbye to a lot of amazing people and amazing people who gave to this church. So we're not, I'm not blowing smoke here. I really felt like um we've got to set up the next generation of pastors. So what we've done is almost turned ourselves inside out and really tried to help the next generation uh launch churches. And so I it just comes from a deep place of conviction. There's that word again. Yeah, and and um now you don't want to do that unless you really heard from the Lord, but we really felt like we did. And and so we think part of playing the long game is just doing more things that don't have our name on it.

Michael John Cusick 29:09

It feels entirely counterintuitive to do those kinds of things, where instead of putting your name on it more and to become bigger, so you have a a hat that says Ebenezer's Coffee House. And I think that that's one of the spin-offs of what you do. And there's there's other just talk about a few of the spin-offs that are there, including the miracle of the block that you inhabit and how that was this historic site where the the uh streetcars used to turn around well over a hundred years ago, and how that that became your church because of this kind of creative thinking. So, in other words, the gradually over all these years had some suddenlies where these outposts of the kingdom are now all throughout Washington, D.C.

Mark Batterson 29:52

Yeah. Well, Michael, we we have to go back to 1996, a Sunday where we had 13 people. And uh that week I felt this prompting reading Joshua 1.3, I'll give you everywhere you set your foot. And I just felt this prompting to pray a perimeter around Capitol Hill. It turned into a 4.7-mile prayer walk. And I wasn't praying for property, it was just praying for people. Lord, let your kingdom come, let your will be done in D.C. as it is in heaven. And uh 30 years later, we owned seven properties on that prayer circle. I mean, I uh it's almost hard to hear me say it, but worth $100 million, and we never thought we would own property. And so one of them is the crack house that we turned into Ebenezer's coffee house. And I think God has blessed it, but because we said we're gonna give every penny a profit to kingdom causes. And then that other property is that city block that uh we have turned into the capital turnaround. Uh not only do we use it for our weekend worship, for our house of prayer on Thursday nights, but we hosted about 150 events, including the conference where you and I met. And it really has become a place where church and community cross paths, which is part of our, I think, philosophy of ministry that Jesus didn't just hang out in the synagogue. He hung out at Wells. Wells were natural gathering places in ancient culture. So what we've tried to do is maybe a little unorthodox, but those properties include the coffee house, what has become an event venue. We own the Miracle Theater. Uh, we have our DC Dream Center. And one of the things we try to do with those properties is also just be a blessing to others. We incubate other church plants in those buildings. And then it it a church that stays within its four walls isn't a church at all. So what it allows us to do is really be salt and light right here on Capitol Hill.

Michael John Cusick 32:00

Thank you for just expanding upon all of that. Um, I really am drawn when I was there to the way that the church does ministry, and there's a very open-handedness with it as opposed to having a really tight agenda that this is how it's going to be. Hey, your time is really valuable and it's later in the day there on the East Coast. But would you end with this? The part where I am in the book, where I've camped out, is you you live in Capitol Hill, Washington, D.C., and you told the story about how Washington, George uh General President George Washington, commissioned an architect and a designer to envision something. And the line that you used, I believe, is that everything's created twice. So I can't pronounce nor remember that architect designer's name, but tell that story.

Mark Batterson 32:53

Yeah, Pierre Charles Laenfont. And uh, those who live in D.C., it's one of the metro stops, uh, Laenfont uh station. So uh, you know, everything is created twice. The first creation is usually in the imagination, which is part of the Imago Day. And for La Enfant, it was looking at swampland and then kind of superimposing this mental map. And so, Michael, it's funny, whether I'm running the National Mall or driving around the city or some of the circles that we have, I'm often cognizant that, hey, where I am first existed in the imagination of a French architect commissioned by George Washington. And that to me is pretty cool because uh you and I were first uh conceived in the imagination of God. We are God's workmanship created in Christ Jesus to do good works prepared for us in advance. And so when we exercise our imagination, we really are doing exactly what the creator did in the beginning. And so just an encouragement that uh it takes blood, sweat, and years uh for that second creation. But the first creation, um, you know, who knows what God wants to do in each one of us. Uh I'd rather have one God idea than a thousand good ideas, but then the catch is you've got to take every thought captive, 2 Corinthians 10, 5, and make it obedient to Christ. And so that's where gradually turns into suddenly.

Michael John Cusick 34:40

Great ending. Thank you for landing the plane in that place. I really appreciate your your time to talk about the book and just for listeners to get to know you. Thanks for the for writing the book. I'm really looking forward to digging in and and letting it marinate and and marinating in it. I love your writing style and just all that you have to say, Mark.

Mark Batterson 35:00

Hey, Michael, thank you so much. Joy and privilege, and uh look look forward to the next time that our paths cross.

Michael John Cusick 35:09

Yeah, me too. Good to see you again. Take care. God bless.

Brian Beatty 35:14

So we've wrapped up another episode of Restoring the Soul. We want you to know that Restoring the Soul is so much more than a podcast. In fact, the heart of what we have done for nearly 20 years is intensive counseling. When you can't wait months or years to get out of the rug you're in, our intensive counseling programs in Colorado allow you to experience deep change in half day blocks over two weeks. To learn more, visit restoring the soul.com. That's restoring the soul.com.