Episode 400 - Dr. Gary Chapman, "The Love Language That Matters Most"

Most people who know the five love languages have tried speaking their partner's language — and wondered why it still isn't working. The problem usually isn't the language. It's something underneath it.

Dr. Gary Chapman returns with new research showing how personality, empathy, and the subtle dialects within each love language determine whether love actually lands. In this conversation, he and Michael explore why speaking someone's love language can backfire if it runs against their personality, what it looks like to confuse encouragement with pressure, and why the most important question in a marriage might be as simple as "How can I make your life easier?"

At 88 years old, Chapman also shares the turning point in his own marriage — a vision of Jesus washing his disciples' feet that changed not his technique, but his posture.

Dr. Gary Chapman is a marriage counselor, pastor, and author of The Five Love Languages, which has sold over 20 million copies worldwide, and his newest book, The Love Language That Matters Most.

Transcript

Introduction to Love Languages and Their Importance

Michael John Cusick 0:00

Hi again, everybody. Welcome to the Restoring the Soul podcast. I'm Michael, and today a very special guest. Let me say that he is a legend. It's Dr. Gary Chapman, who's the author of the book that people know as the Five Love Languages, which has sold over 20 million copies in all of its form, 50 languages around the world. And Dr. Chapman, I just want to welcome you. Well, thank you, Michael. I'm glad to be with you today. I'm glad that you're here for so many reasons because I have known of the five love languages both personally and professionally. And I'll start with a backhanded compliment. As a therapist that has worked with trauma people, I've been intrigued by the five love languages, found them helpful in my own life, but have this sense that this really doesn't work for people with trauma and with for people who have issues of actually being able to receive the love language. So I was thrilled when a copy of the new book came across my desk and the research that you integrated with your co-authors, Dr. Les Parrott and Dr. Leslie Parrott. And the book is called The Love Language That Matters the Most. So let's start with this. What is the love language that matters the most and why is that important?

Gary Chapman 1:21

Well, we assume that when people see that title, they're going to be asking themselves, which one is it? Which one is it? Right, right. In the first paragraph of the book, we say the love language that matters most is the love language of your partner. And the reason we do that is a lot of people have read the original book and they're thinking about themselves. They'll take the quiz and they'll discuss it with each other, and they'll try speaking their spouse's language, and then about uh three weeks they say to me or somebody else, you know, I'm I'm I'm speaking, this is not working. I mean, I'm speaking their language, they're not speaking my language, you know. So we're trying to say, let's start. The Bible says we should start with the other person, you know. Love stimulates love. So let's you be the one that stimulates, that starts it. So great.

Michael John Cusick 2:14

So let me ask you this. We talked a little bit about this right before we started. You you let me know, I guess that you were in your 80s. You're 88 years old, and you look and sound and have the vitality of somebody much younger. So uh I'm in awe of the fact that you're 88 and still so prolific, not because you don't have anything else to do, but because you've got so much to say. So, first of all, thank you for continuing to give and to write. You've been married over 60 years. What's the number one thing that you've learned personally that makes a marriage a good marriage where two people actually have sustained joy of being together?

The Love Language That Matters Most

Gary Chapman 2:58

Well, I'll tell you what it was for me in my own marriage, in the early struggles we had in the early days of our marriage. And I came to the point where I finally said to God, I don't know what to do. This is not working. She won't listen to me, which shows you where I was coming from. And it's not working, and I don't know what to do. And as soon as I said that, there came to my mind a visual image of Jesus on his knees, washing the feet of his disciples. And I heard God say to me, That's the problem in your marriage. You do not have the attitude of Christ towards your wife. It hit me like a ton of bricks because I remember what Jesus said when he stood up. He said to his disciples, You call me teacher and Lord, and you are right. But he went on to explain, in my kingdom the leader serves. I want you to serve others the way I've served you. And I know that I knew that was not my attitude. So after I wept and confessed, I asked God to give me the attitude of Christ toward my wife. And in retrospect, that's the greatest prayer I ever prayed about my marriage because God changed my heart. And three questions made it practical when I started asking these questions. Simple questions. First question is, honey, what can I do to help you? Second question, how can I make your life easier? And the third question, how could I be a better husband? And when I was willing to ask those questions, my wife was willing to answer them. Now looking back on all of that, because I started doing those things, looking back on all of that, I knew nothing about love languages, of course. She was telling me her answers were telling me her love language. And I was choosing to speak her love language. So to me, that that was the turning point. And I think, you know, if Philippians chapter two says, Let this attitude be in you, which was in Christ Jesus. Though he was God, he didn't demand his rights. He stepped down in humility and got on level ground with us. And then he stepped down further, even to death on a cross. If we get the right attitude, then you know the love languages are going to help us as long as a lot of other things are going to help us if we have the right attitude.

Michael John Cusick 5:14

Thank you so much for going there and for sharing that, because that really is what the the languages are working toward, right? Being able to be that person that our partner can experience that love from. So in the new book, The Love Language That Matters Most, here's one of the big ideas that uh it discusses and the research addresses this idea of why some people can share their love language and a couple can know each other's languages, but if somehow falls flat, it doesn't land. So talk about some of the reasons that the book goes into for why that's

The Role of Personality in Love Languages

Michael John Cusick 5:49

the case.

Gary Chapman 5:50

Well, I think one reason is that uh we are self-centered and we are speaking their language, so they will speak our language. And I've had people say to me, just as I mentioned earlier, you know, I've d I've done this for three weeks and it's not working because they're not speaking my language. And I say, oh, so you're speaking their language, so they will speak your language. That's called manipulation. That doesn't work. Uh you know, and so I think that's one reason. I think another reason is because there are a lot of other things in the relationship that they've never dealt with, and consequently, you know, this one little change is not gonna deal with those things. So we have to deal with whatever the history is, whatever hurts that are that are still, you know, raw and not been healed, and those kind of things. Uh but I think once you once you begin to deal with those things as well, you're gonna find if both of you choosing to express each other's love in the right language, uh, you're gonna find it's gonna make a huge difference.

Michael John Cusick 6:55

The other thing that I really appreciated in the new book is looking at how personality affects how people experience love languages. And also just one just one quick touch point off what you just said that self-centeredness doesn't always look obvious as a husband that's been married uh going on 35 years. I can personally be so externally looking like I'm doing the right thing, but then on the inside, this is all about me. It's like so you nailed it when you said, I'm giving you your love language so that you'll give me mine. And that's so subtle, but I really appreciate that. And I guess that that addresses an aspect of my personality. So what what's the what are the findings around personality and how people do or don't experience their love language?

Gary Chapman 7:39

Well, you know, this is one of the questions people have asked me through the years about the original book. They say, you mentioned in there that personality interfaces with how and when you speak the love language, but you didn't really develop that. And so in this book, that's one of the things we're trying to do. Well, let's just take introversion and extroversion, for example. So this wife knows that uh her husband's 30th birthday is coming up. So she plans for that. It's gonna be a big one. And so she says to him that evening, I'm gonna drive the car because I'm gonna surprise you where we're where I'm gonna take you. He thinks they're going out to dinner, and he's excited. Well, in a while they pull up in front of the house that he's familiar with. It's it's a friend's house. He said, What are we doing here? She said, Well, they want us to stop by. And so they walk in and there's thirty people there to celebrate his birthday. He is an introvert. Now he's gonna be fine, he's gonna laugh and smile, he's gonna be friendly to the people and all of that. But in his heart of hearts, he would much have preferred that she take him out to a nice restaurant and celebrate his birthday. If she had taken his personality into account, she was doing a good thing, and in her mind she was loving him by doing an act of service to him. But she didn't take into account that he's an introvert, you know, and that and that he doesn't feel comfortable

Understanding Empathy in Relationships

Gary Chapman 9:04

being the focus of attention in front of a lot of other people. So that's just an example of how personality interfaces with when and where and how we speak a person's love language.

Michael John Cusick 9:17

You talk a lot about empathy and the role of listening and how if those ingredients are not there that things can potentially fall flat. Talk a little bit about empathy. You know, this has uh entered so much more of mainstream conversation, it's out even outside of counseling offices. Uh describe in your language what empathy is, and I think there were four F's in the book of fluent, faltering, frustrated, and frozen in regard to empathy. Unpack that.

Gary Chapman 9:46

Yeah, I think empathy is listening with a view to understanding what the other person is thinking and what the other person is feeling. That is, we're trying to see the world through their eyes. And we don't do this by nature. By nature, they share something and then we give a response. Uh and but if we listen, we're gonna be asking questions. They share something and we're gonna say, now what I hear you saying is, am I right? Or then are they gonna say something else? And you're gonna say, okay, tell me a little bit more about that. Because I really want to I really want to understand what you're thinking and what you're feeling. We're listening with a view to understanding their perspective, seeing the world through their eyes, rather than responding and giving an answer to what they say. Uh, you know, the husband comes home and says, Uh, I'm quitting my job. And the wife says, Quitting your job? You can't quit your job, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But if she would have said, Honey, tell me what you're thinking. What what what brings you to say that? And then he describes, you know, a whole bunch of things that happened today and all, and and she asked more questions. And she says, Well, I can see why quitting ran through your mind, babe. He said, Well, you know, I'm not going to quit my job. I'm just, I was just frustrated. Well, you know, she listened long enough that she could understand where he was coming from rather than just responding to what she thought he meant by what he said. So I think that's so important. And we can either be good listeners and fluent in this thing, or we can flounder in this thing. So uh but we have to have the concept first of what we're what empathy means and what we're really trying to do.

Michael John Cusick 11:29

And in terms of fluency, that first F, I love the language idea of a dialect. So there's the five love languages, but there's almost a countless number of dialects. Like in India, for example, a dear friend who's Indian from South Asia told me that where he came from, there were 1,500 dialects. And I was like, how do you even function from village to village there? So can you unpack and do this however feels comfortable and efficient to you? But I'd love to hear about for each of the languages, what are the key dialect

Exploring Dialects of Love Languages

Michael John Cusick 12:04

aspects?

Gary Chapman 12:05

Yeah. Well, this is another question that people have asked me through the years that motivated me to write this book with uh with Les and Leslie Parrott. Uh they've said, you know, Dr. Shaman, in the original book, you mentioned that these languages have dialects, but you don't really tell us what they are. And so uh this is a big thing in this book is dealing with the dialects of these languages. For example, uh words of affirmation. The three dialects that we mentioned were encouragement, words of encouragement, and words of compliment, and then words of of affirmation. Those are those are different. They're they're the same language, but encouragement is focusing on something maybe you've observed about them that they're doing well, like a man says to his wife, honey, you know, you're a good writer. I was reading something you wrote the other day. You o you ought to write an article. I think we could put it in the paper. I mean, it's it's good. Well, he's speaking encouragement, but to her, if that's not her dialect, it may come along as pressure. He's kind of pushing me to do something I don't want to do. And then uh affirmation is basically appreciation, is basically expressing appreciation for something they have done. Honey, this meal was wonderful. I really appreciate what you did, you know? And and then simply uh also giving uh words that uh communicate something positive about them. You know, one of the things I like about you is your personality. You're so positive. I love that about you. You know, I run into people all the time, and everything's negative. But for you, you always see the positive in things. So, you know, so just understanding the dialects of the language is going to help you be more effective in communicating. And of course, you know, as you know, the book also recommends an online quiz, we call the premium quiz, the pr premium assessment, that will actually show you uh the primary, uh not only the primary love language, but the dialect within that language that's most important and the one that's secondary importance. And so understanding uh the you know the dialect of each of these languages is gonna help you be more effective. And I I think folks are gonna really and we s we spell all these out in the book, of course, even without the premium quiz. And I think seeing those and recognizing those, and some of them you're just gonna know right away when you read it, you go, oh man, that's me. Like quality time, for example. Quality time is giving the person your undivided attention. So this husband knows that his wife's language is quality time. So Friday night he says to her, Honey, how about tomorrow morning you and I get up early and let's go up to Pilot Mountain and let's take a hike. It's all morning we'll spend together. He thinks he's hitting a home run. She says to him, Honey, I've got Saturday already planned. Oh, you can put those off till next Saturday, honey. You see, he he is an improviser. Every at the moment, just quality time, that'd be great. She's a planner. She wants to do what he's saying, but let's put it on the calendar for two weeks from now. And if he understood the difference between those, but he's operating on his own perception, you know, that this is it, let's do it. She's she's she has to you have to plan it ahead for her. And learning these aspects of the of the dialects, I think it's gonna help a lot of people. They're gonna see themselves, I think, as they read as they read the book.

Michael John Cusick 15:44

Aaron Ross Powell And what I'm hearing from you just with those two examples with those two love languages, not just that it falls flat, but that it can actually backfire if it arouses pressure or anxiety or it throws the wife's schedule where he thinks that he's helping and it's actually hurting. And that's actually different from, well, it's just f falling flat.

Gary Chapman 16:02

Aaron Powell Yeah. No, that that's exactly right. And like on gift giving, you know. There are there are fanciful gifts, you know, like diamonds or rings or jewelry or something like that. Uh there are functional gifts, like a vacuum cleaner, uh, or other things. And then there's sentimental gifts, like a photo that you made of some scene and you had it put in a uh r uh what do you call them? Frame and give it to her, you know? And she's gone, oh man, that is so neat, you know. So understanding the difference between those. I remember one one young man, uh, they'd been having been married very long, it was their first Valentine's Day, and he knew her language was gifts. So he bought her a really nice food mixer. I mean, top of the line, and gave it to her on Valentine's Day. And he thought, man, she's gonna love this. Well, she did appreciate it, and she was nice, you know, she she thanked him and all. But really what she wanted was a sentimental gift. She wanted something like flowers or she wanted a special note on Valentine's Day. You know, just it's very, very different in one of them speaking to her into her dialect. So uh again, if he had understood the difference and understood what her dialect was, he would have known that's okay to give her, but not on Valentine's Day, you know.

Michael John Cusick 17:32

Yeah. And and and to your point uh back about our self-centeredness, uh, the premium assessment, which by the way, can be found at fivlovelanguages.com.

Acts of Service and Physical Touch

Michael John Cusick 17:43

That's the number five lovelanguages.com, that can give clarity, but it also comes back to I need to be outside of myself and listening and attuned and dialed in so that I am not uh completely clueless because a lot of husbands, and I know we're talking about husbands a lot, but uh might be saying, well, you know, I try, I I've I've tried to do the right thing, but the listening, the assessment, those kinds of uh sense of deep understanding might lead to being able to speak the dialect of that given moment.

Gary Chapman 18:17

Yeah, and I think that's why this book is gonna be so helpful to people who have already read the first book. You know, I encourage people to read the first book first, then read this book, and you're gonna find it's just gonna take it much deeper, make you much more effective in doing what you're trying to do, and that is keep their love tank full, you know, meeting the emotional need. Almost everybody agrees one of our deepest emotional needs on the human level is the need to feel loved by the significant people in our lives. And so if we understand that and we choose, this is back to attitude, and we choose a loving attitude, this gives us information on how to meet that need in a very, very effective manner.

Michael John Cusick 19:02

How about the dialect for acts of service and then physical touch?

Gary Chapman 19:07

Well, physical touch, there's a whole bunch of them. There's about ten of them, I think. They're playful touches, you know, or you're tickling the the person or throwing a pillow at them or something like that. They're romantic touches, which are, you know, kind of leading up to having a a very romantic evening. Uh, you know, there's a whole whole string of those. Uh I I teamed up with uh Les and Leslie Perrot, as you know. He's he's a psychologist and she's a marriage and family counselor. And he was really good uh on all these dialects. Uh uh here's some of the others. Uh there's a there's a protective touch when you know things you're you're outside and something there's a bunch of people around and you you you sense something's not going right, you just you touch them in a way to protect them. Uh there's a a restoring touch, uh, when there's been a little fallout or something. Touch it that that person that that kind of touch. Uh there's a comforting touch when uh the your your your spouse gets off the phone and they start crying. And you say, Honey, what's wrong? And they say, I just heard that my brother died. And physical touch, you go over and give them an embrace. It's a comforting touch. So understanding the different dialects of touch will help you know when to touch and how to touch, and also why one kind of touch is more meaningful to them than the other kind of touch.

Michael John Cusick 20:34

And what about acts of service? I think that's the last one.

Gary Chapman 20:38

Yeah, acts of Yeah, acts of service. Um one of them is uh uh a service that will save them time because their their schedule is really full, and you do something for them, like going and standing in line somewhere to get something that they Oh man, that's such a wonderful thing, honey. I so appreciate you doing that. So it's it's uh saving time. Another is uh uh alleviating stress, that uh you know that there's stress because there's a bunch of people coming over for dinner and and and so you're just okay, honey, what can I do to help you now? Because they're under a lot of stress. Uh uh and then there's also uh uh uh instilling security to them, uh in a in a sense that th things are out of something's going on that's they're kind of threatening them. And so you're gonna say, honey, look, I put double locks on the doors. So it's gonna be a lot safer here now. I just want you to know that. Okay? It's something it would be meaningful to anybody else, but for them, if this is their dialect, man, that sort of thing, speaks very, very loudly to them. So again, understanding uh, you know, how and when uh the personality and the dialects uh interface with each other is gonna help people uh accomplish the goal of meeting. That person's need for love. But I would like to come back to this, Michael. The foundation

The Foundation of Love: Attitude and Influence

Gary Chapman 22:05

of all of this is having an attitude of love. Because love starts with an attitude. And love the attitude of love is I choose to enrich your life. I want to do whatever I can do that will help you become the person that you believe God wants you to be. That's the attitude of love. And that's the attitude we're called upon to have. And as Christians, we have outside help because the scriptures say the love of God is poured in our hearts by the Holy Spirit. So we may not have positive feelings. Maybe we're in a troubled marriage, and maybe we've lost those positive feelings. We may have negative feelings. And we can say to God, You know what I'm married to, and you know I don't have positive feelings for them. But I'm married to them and I'm opening my heart to you. You pour your love into my heart and I'll be your agent for loving, especially your love to them. And you have all the help of God to speak their love language, even though you don't have warm love feelings for them. And love stimulates love. I can't guarantee you if you'll do that on a regular basis for a few months, I can't guarantee you that they'll begin to warm up to you. But I can tell you it's the most powerful thing you could do to influence them. The fact is we influence each other every single day, either negative influence or positive influence. And many times when we have when we don't have the love feelings, we give negative influence. We criticize them because they're not doing this or not doing that. And that that is a negative influence. That just pushes them further away. But when you're loving them, even though you don't have love feelings for them, you're having a positive influence on them. Scriptures say we love God because He first loved us. So we apply that in the human relationship. We're going to be having the most positive influence we can have on our spouse.

Michael John Cusick 24:04

That is so powerful. We are right at the mark to finish. And so I want to thank you, Dr. Gary Chapman, for your decades-long work around helping couples and helping relationships, helping marriages. Your new book is The Love Language That Matters Most, How to Personalize Love So They Really Feel It. God bless you to you and to the parrots as you continue this uh this very important ministry.

Gary Chapman 24:32

Well, thank you, Michael. It's good to be with you, and I appreciate what you're doing. So keep on keeping on. God bless you.

Michael John Cusick 24:39

So we've wrapped up another episode of Restoring the Soul. We want you to know that Restoring the Soul is so much more than a podcast. In fact, the heart of what we have done for nearly 20 years is intensive counseling. When you can't wait months or years to get out of the rut you're in, our intensive counseling programs in Colorado allow you to experience deep change in half day blocks over two weeks. To learn more, visit restoring the soul.com. That's restoring the soul.com.