Episode 412: SOUL CARE SUMMER - Andy Crouch, "Amusing Ourselves to Death"

Andy Crouch didn't set out to write a parenting book. But when he'd mention offhand that his family had no screens in the house until his kids turned ten, young parents would rush to him afterward with what he described as hungry desperation in their eyes. The Tech-Wise Family came out of that hunger — and out of original research with Barna that helped quantify what most people were already sensing: something has shifted, and it isn't just about the kids.

In part one of this two-part conversation, Michael and Andy discuss why the real problem isn't screen-time limits but the entire posture of a life shaped around "easy everywhere." Andy makes a surprising case that the quest for effortless technology is, at its root, the same quest as alchemy, and that something spiritually dangerous coils around devices that promise to make us like God. They also talk about boredom: what it actually is, why creativity lives on the other side of it, and what we lose when we never have to sit still long enough to find out.

Part two continues next week.

Transcript

— Producer Introduction

Michael John Cusick 0:00

Hello and welcome to Restoring the Soul with Michael John Kusick. I'm your producer, Brian Beatty. We're about three-quarters of the way through our soul care summer, where we're looking back at some of the most important episodes of our tenure history. School starts this week for a lot of families, which makes this one of our most well-timed episodes we could bring you from the Restoring the Soul archive. This conversation with Andy Crouch originally aired in October of 2017, but everything in it has only become more pressing since. Andy is a writer, cultural critic, and former editor at Christianity Today. And his book, The Techwise Family, is still one of the most honest and practical things written on technology and family life. We're releasing part one today, and part two will come next week. Here's Michael with Andy Crouch.

— Welcome Back: The Tech-Wise Family

Michael John Cusick 0:55

Andy Crouch, welcome back to the program.

SPEAKER_01 0:58

I am so glad to be back.

Michael John Cusick 1:00

Yeah, I'm gonna be giving you frequent flyer models if you come back for a third interview. Today I'm talking with you about the techwise family, everyday steps for putting technology in its proper place. And I just want to start by saying I was really, really challenged by this book. Um I kind of skimmed through it and I thought, oh, this would be interesting to talk about. And when I took a deeper dive, I thought this is something I'm gonna really have to reflect on. So tell me about how this came about and why you decided to write this book.

SPEAKER_02 1:34

Well, I want to hear more about your reaction, but I will tell you kind of how I came to write it. A couple things happened. Uh one was simply that I would be speaking and be in various kind of public settings, and just incidentally would mention some of the rather radical choices my wife and I made at various points as we were raising our kids, um, like no television before double digits. When our kids were under 10, we had no really no screens in the house that they could access. Um things like that. And after those talks, which would be about other subjects, but I would somehow would come up, these young parents would flock to the front and uh with this kind of hungry desperation in their eyes, say, Is it actually possible to do what you described? Like, how do I raise my

— How This Book Came About

SPEAKER_02 2:21

kids with less technology than I see around me? And so I was realizing there was just this hunger for help in figuring out really the parenting side of technology. Um, the other thing that happened then was that my friends at Barno Research Group, Dave Kenneman and Roxanne Stone, uh, came to me and they said, as we're doing research about the church in the US and about family and culture, we just keep hearing about technology. And would you be interested in collaborating and we'll do some original research and kind of quantify and describe how this, all this technology is affecting our family lives? And then would you write, you know, if they're the kind of the descriptive side, would you, Andy, write the prescriptive side, the kind of vision of what it could be like? So they persuaded me. We worked really hard for a year, got it out, and it's flown it's flown. I mean, I don't know, maybe it hasn't quite flown off the shelves. It has definitely uh hopped quickly off the shelves, faster than anything I've written, not because of what's in the book, I don't think, so much as just this topic is so pressing for so many people. And a lot of people are trying to figure this out.

Michael John Cusick 3:25

Aaron Ross Powell Well, thanks for that explanation. I like the fact that it's very unique where it's a small book, but the Barna research, which as you said is original and fresh, is woven all throughout in pie charts and bar charts, and it gives all these statistics. And so it's very, very engaging. But you specifically wrote the book not to give people a formula, like here's the three things that you know get software and keep your computer in the middle of the room. But you really wrote it to help people discern and think more broadly. Talk about talk to me about that.

SPEAKER_02 3:57

Yeah, in a way that the the three things people always want to talk about is screens, limits, and kids, and other screen time for kids, basically. That's what everybody thinks is the issue. And and at an underlying premise of this book is

— Not a Formula — a Vision

SPEAKER_02 4:12

it's not just about screens, it's actually about this much bigger story of technological devices that have filled our lives uh really in the span of just one generation, my parents' uh lifetime, basically, from when they were born to now. Uh it's a lot more than screens. It's not primarily about limits. I think, I mean, who wants to parent by limits? And I I actually feel like parents are getting backed into this style of parenting where so much energy, emotional energy, is devoted to how do I limit my kids' appetite. In fact,

— It's Not Just About Screens, Limits, or Kids

SPEAKER_02 4:44

I was thinking about this this week, Michael. I was thinking about how when I was a child, I was a child in the 1970s, and there was this sort of trope or or common commonplace among parents, talking about the checkout line in the grocery store. And this was the place that you'd be sort of funneled in, kind of like cattle being led to slaughter, uh, with your child, and suddenly your child would be exposed to these banks of candy, right? And and things that appealed to their appetite, and you had to manage that um childish desire for candy. Like, how do you get through the checkout line without buying all the stuff that's not really good for your child? That used to be like five minutes a week for parents that they had to deal with that sort of assault of temptation on their child's appetite. And now I think that's like 95% of the time parents are dealing with this. So I want to I want to say in this book, it's not just about limits. And if we I mean, we have to have some limits, all of us do. But if we build our parenting and our lives around limits, I think that becomes very legalistic and actually backfires. And then uh it's not just about the kids. So uh this might be why you started to realize, oh, this isn't just a nice book to discuss, but this might actually cause me to have to change, because uh I really think this is mostly about the parents, not about the kids. And when people say, Oh, kids these days are always on their phone, I'm like, have you seen adults recently? Have you been to a playground? At least the kids are still on the playground. The parents are all around the edge of the playground, all of them are on their phones. And so this is uh about something a lot more than screens, it's about something a lot more than limits, and it's not just about the kids.

Michael John Cusick 6:21

Well, that is exactly what I came to as I read the book. At first I picked it up and I thought, well, I like to talk to Andy and I like his books, but this will help me be a better dad. And as I started to read it, it was like, no, this is inviting me to be a better human being. Um because it really is about you talk of character in the book and how our decisions and commitments need to come out of that, and how the relational aspect between parent and child is about character and fruitfulness, but you can't do that if you don't do it in your own life. And so as as I started reading the commitments, I was like, I don't know if I could do that. You know, I I don't like to um wait until a certain time to use technology, or I I want to go to bed with my technology because I I've read all the articles

— This Invites You to Be a Better Human

Michael John Cusick 7:08

about the light is bad for you and you don't sleep. And I'm like, but I want to read my book or catch up on the news. So it brought me to this point of do I really want shalom in my life? Wow. And um so this is not just like a a canned thing to say during the podcast to you, but I'm really wrestling with some of this stuff, and I thought this will require a number of deep conversations with my wife and then with my kids before we even think of doing this.

SPEAKER_02 7:37

Yeah, fair enough.

Michael John Cusick 7:38

Because it really asks you to kind of step back and ask who do we want to be as a family?

SPEAKER_02 7:42

And uh it I had to do that too. I had to um ask that at a number of points uh about my own life. I mean, actually you mentioned one of the things that was uh particularly problematic for me, I guess I would say, and that was that uh I would wake up in the morning. I I have generally not slept with my phone next to me, even though, by the way, we've discovered in our research 82% of teenagers sleep with their phone. Um and I don't know what I think about for 49-year-olds, but I know for 15-year-olds that's really not healthy. But anyway, I I didn't do that, but I was getting up in the morning, going downstairs, putting on the uh the tee uh to steep and picking up my phone immediately.

— Andy's Own Struggle: The Phone in the Morning

SPEAKER_02 8:25

It was the first thing I was doing. And I thought, this this is probably not right. So I made this commitment halfway through writing the book that I would not turn on any glowing rectangle in the morning until I had been out of doors. And the first two weeks I tried to do that, it was so hard. I mean, it just the it was like the phone was calling to me. I mean, it just it wanted to be with me. And I was like, no, no, I'm keeping it there until I've just opened the door, even just stuck my head out for you know, five seconds. Uh that can count. And after two weeks, something sh switched or flipped. And I remember going down after about two weeks of this, of it being really a notable struggle. And I mean, really, it's just these kind of things, right, are so humbling because it's so simple. Like just leave the thing sitting there in its charger for another five minutes, and yet it's so hard to do. But I went downstairs and I looked at the phone and had this momentary thought that I could pick it up. And I actually felt this like little bit of r revulsion at the idea of picking it up before I had been outside and taken a deep breath. And I used to wake up as a teenager or young adult in my teens and twenties. I used to wake up and every morning I would go outside and I would say, Thank you, Lord, for this day. It just was this kind of it wasn't a spiritual discipline in the sense I didn't really try to do it. It just was what I did every day. And sometime in the last 20 years I stopped doing that. And I started picking up my phone instead and seeing whatever email and Twitter and et cetera had for me. And I found myself back in that pattern now that I go outside and I look up, and right now Orion is uh setting in the in the west uh when I go out my front door, which faces west in the morning. And I look up at Orion uh if it's a clear day or clear morning and um say, thank you, Lord, for this day. And I feel like I've been given life back, and uh, and now I have no desire at all to pick that thing up until I've had that moment of kind of uh embodied reflection and prayer.

Michael John Cusick 10:25

Wow. Well, I I want to do that too, but I'm gonna Google a picture of Orion and then just uh look up a prayer on my prayer app.

SPEAKER_02 10:35

You are indeep. This is this is going to be a hard case, I can tell.

Michael John Cusick 10:39

When you talk about going outside, um you write about this a lot in the book, but how we've lost wonder and attention and contemplation. And um that's a big theme of the book. But talk about other ways that this perpetual tech screens um what we lose.

SPEAKER_02 11:00

Well, I would like to frame it actually in the bigger picture, not just of screens, but the whole panoply of devices, because they're all built for one thing, and it's to make things easier. Um

— What We Lose to Perpetual Technology

SPEAKER_02 11:12

in the book, I define technology as easy everywhere. That's kind of the that's the goal, that's the eschaton, the telos of technology is to have ease in my life of all kinds of things that either were categorically impossible for human beings or were very difficult for human beings, to now be absolutely effortless and um and to have that ease wherever I go. Um and, you know, in its right place, this is very useful. And um there are some domains where I absolutely want it. I mean, for example, medical devices. Uh if

— Technology as "Easy Everywhere"

SPEAKER_02 11:48

you think about uh drug delivery, for example, uh if I if I need a certain kind of infusion intravenously, uh, I would much rather have a technological device doing that than a human nurse who could easily be fatigued, distracted, you know, uh just make the errors that all human beings are prone to. We can we can you know go to five sigmas of reliability with a device so that that dose is delivered in the right way at the right time. And I'm all for that, let me be clear. The problem is when you generalize that principle of easy everywhere to all of our life. And and then I think you you cross this um kind of uh border or you cross this uh kind of Rubicon from uh relieving unmeaningful qualities of difficulty that really it's just as well that we don't have to deal with this, to relieving our lives of the very texture of challenge that causes us to grow. Ultimately, what this is about is magic. And we have forgotten that our whole modern scientific world emerged from the quest for magic. It emerged from all alchemy, right? And the quest for alchemy, the the core quest was for the philosopher's stone, which was the substance thought to exist, in fact, it's a total mirage, that would do two things. It would turn any metal into gold, and it would give you everlasting life. And so easy wealth, easy life, and of course, Arthur C. Clarke said, any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. And what does he mean by that? He means when you really get technology going,

— The Quest for Magic — and What's Demonic About It

SPEAKER_02 13:30

you are no longer asked to be or become anything different. The universe, you found the key to the universe, so it will just do for you what you want to do for you without you having to grow in any way. And I think the root of that is is actually literally demonic. And the quest for magic is I mean, this is one of the things in scripture that is just categorically uh refused to the people of God. Um and it's interesting how often magicians show up in the biblical narratives, both Old Testament and New, as counterfeits and as alternatives to what ultimately is revealed as the cruciform way of God, which is the way through suffering, the way through growth, the way through relationship, and so on. And all these things around me that approximate magic to a very high degree are are, I think, incredibly spiritually dangerous.

Michael John Cusick 14:19

Aaron Ross Powell So I just want to be clear for people that are not familiar with uh your other books and and your very balanced approach to thinking about God and scripture. You're not saying technology is demonic.

SPEAKER_02 14:32

Aaron Ross Powell Uh It's not demonic in exactly the way that money is not demonic.

Michael John Cusick 14:37

Aaron Powell Right, right. So talk about that. You're talking about what can be beneath it or how we use it.

SPEAKER_02 14:43

So the problem is it's you know, money is not the root of evil, and neither is technology. In fact, I think technology is the fruitfulness of God's world brought into uh brought into availability for human creativity. Um and and I think money is the the uh kind of uh measurement of value and the exchange of value made available to human beings so that we

— A Clarification: Technology Is Not the Enemy

SPEAKER_02 15:06

can properly value things and increase wealth in the world, right? At the same time, Jesus says you cannot serve God in mammon. And what it that word mammon, I think, is very significant because it's not just a noun, it's a proper noun or it's a uh it's a name. Um and it's not the ordinary word for money. It's the name, I think, of the demon in charge of the belief that money will uh provide

— Mammon, Magic, and the Whisper in the Machine

SPEAKER_02 15:31

me everything I need, and that if I serve money, I will have what I want. In fact, I'm not even sure that the demon of mammon uh and the demon, whatever the name is, of the demonic power in charge of technology. I'm not sure those are different demons. But they're not the same thing as the thing that they hold out, just like the serpent is not the same thing as the fruit, right? Maybe that's not a good example because they weren't supposed to eat the fruit, whereas the technology, I think you you are allowed to you are allowed to eat this fruit. You're allowed to use the bitten apple on your iPhone. Right, right. Um but you have to realize that coiled around that thing, as it actually operates in the world, this is true for money, and I think it's true for technology, is a demonic power that's whispering in your ear, if you have this, you will be like God and you shall not surely die. So I am not anti-technology, and I mean, my gosh, we're using technology to talk right now. I I I use it all day, every day, except for my one hour a day, one day a week, one week a year, which we can talk about. But I am really wary of that little whisper that says, you know what, this is better than God. This is like magic. Check it out. And I think that's demonic, and I think we can't escape how how woven it is in with the systems of our world that built and gave us all this uh easy everywhere that we enjoy.

Michael John Cusick 16:46

Yeah, and for listeners for whom the word demonic has uh fundamentalist attachments or where that's been um misused, I just want to call up a quote that I remember from Scott Peck years ago in his book People of the Lie. His daughter, while he was writing the book, The People of the Lie, uh came and said to him, Daddy, what what is evil? And he couldn't explain it to her as a ten-year-old. And she came back the next day and said, Daddy, I know what evil is. It's live spelled backwards. And so when when you speak of uh the the assumptions that underlie this and the beliefs that we hold that this will give us life and we can be like God, the use of it in these unhealthy ways is um is that it takes away from that life and that living and that flourishing that all of your books are committed to. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:12

Yeah, I'm not one to look for, you know, demons under every rock or in every bad experience or in every failure of my own. Um but I think the Bible authorizes us to be aware, like there's bigger forces at work in these things

— What "Demonic" Actually Means Here

SPEAKER_02 18:24

than than they're not neutral. I think, you know, so I actually think technology is very good for many things. And it also is capable, like all very good things, of profound distortion. The one thing I think it's not is neutral. I think it can be uh used in ways that are profoundly beneficial, and it can be used in ways that are profoundly harmful. But I think don't think you can just import it wholesale into your life and expect, oh, you know, it'll just be neutral, you know, like nothing will change. No, a lot of things are going to change, either for better or for worse, or some some of both, perhaps.

Michael John Cusick 18:59

Aaron Powell Yeah, especially when there are corporations, advertisers out there that are specifically designing software as well as hardware and social media that is purely based on them making

— Good Things That Aren't Neutral

Michael John Cusick 19:11

a profit by seducing us and addicting us, including a number of recent um books that have come out about the marketing uh of the use of technology and how that's created to you know give us fast wins and things like that.

SPEAKER_02 19:27

And that is one difference with these screens compared to well, the screens we have now, even compared to the screens that I started out with when I was younger, you know, it used to be you had to program computers, um, which is not very rewarding. I mean, it's difficult work, it's painstaking. Computers are very literal, they don't get what you're trying to do, they it just you mess up all the time. It's diff it's painstaking, difficult stuff. Now they are they're in a way programming you, like they are so exquisitely responsive to us now,

— Corporations Are Designing for Addiction

SPEAKER_02 19:57

and this is all through engineering ultimately and algorithms, and now it's it's deepening in a way into machine learning, which no human being even can write the program. We simply set up the conditions in which the the device can uh can observe how I respond and can optimize the way it interacts with me in the in the way that's just most naturally pleasing for me as a human being. So Instagram does not tell me when any everyone likes uh something I post. Instagram knows who

— How Devices Are Now Programming Us

SPEAKER_02 20:25

I most get excited when they like it. And it only I mean, I'm not making this up, right? So, you know, how does Instagram know that my first high school girlfriend who I'm in touch with, and I would think I have a perfectly normal, healthy, non-entangled relationship with thir 40 years later. How does Instagram know to tell me every time she likes something I post on Instagram? Whereas if you like something, Michael, I'm sorry, it's not gonna even tell me. Well, it knows that just through this uh algorithmic, like uh constant surveillance of the speed of my response, of the way I interact with other things. Like it's freaky how much it knows. And so these devices are now plugged into our reward centers in ways that we aren't even fully conscious of, or aren't conscious of until we observe how it's how it's behaving back to us. And that's uh man, that gets inside the neural pathways in a really interesting way, I think.

Michael John Cusick 21:21

Yeah, because that I mean, psychologically, that's all about uh validation and you know it's interesting how we protect things like our Social Security number and our credit card number, but how oftentimes we don't react to uh that kind of far more intimate knowledge.

SPEAKER_02 21:37

Aaron Ross Powell Yeah, yeah.

Michael John Cusick 21:38

Which is ultimately And by the way, my goal now is to become someone that elevates your blood pressure when I like one of your photos.

SPEAKER_01 21:49

Well, you'll I'll tell you if it happens. If it starts showing up on my lock screen, I'll be like, okay, Michael, you say you did something right.

Michael John Cusick 21:58

So you have a chapter in the book called The Good News About Boredom. Uh what's the good news about boredom?

SPEAKER_02 22:05

The good news about about boredom is that creativity is on the other side of boredom. Uh that is, all creativity is on the other side of that blank space where you feel kind of stuck and there doesn't seem to be anything interesting, and

— Instagram Knows More Than Your Social Security Number

SPEAKER_02 22:20

you're just sort of waiting. And of course, at that moment is the exact moment when we pick up the screen to see who's liked our Instagram. Uh but if we sit in that, on the other side of that is the discovery really of the fruitfulness of the world, um, but both the the outer world and the inner world. And so So, you know, boredom, which itself is a very modern concept. There's really no word for it in languages before the 19th century. I think because people just didn't have time to be bored back. They were s trying to survive. And the first people who use the word are aristocrats, who are the who are the people who don't have to work. And

— The Good News About Boredom

SPEAKER_02 22:57

it's used uh initially to talk about like someone at a dinner party, or at I guess not a dinner dinner party so much, just at an aristocratic dinner who doesn't know how to make conversation and so forth. Um but it it gets generalized, right, to all of us who live now with with remarkable amounts of security and leisure. We've lost our capacity to just sit in uncertainty, in that kind of restless mode of not knowing what to attend to or what to do. And now we have devices that say you'll never be bored again. The problem is that means you'll never be creative again, because all creativity happens after I've suffered patiently through that moment or moments. I mean, depending on the depth of the creative work in front of me, it can be an hour or two of sort of anomie and blank page or blank screen. Um but something really creative is on the other side of that if I'll just wait for it.

Michael John Cusick 23:52

That's fascinating, is you use the word suffering. Um one of my professors and mentors, uh Dr. Dan Allender, used to say that boredom was a refusal to suffer. That that there's that sense of where if you're still and contemplative, there's a sense in which you're quote unquote suffering in that place without the stimulation. But as you enter into that, there's actually a life and an energy, and from a Christian perspective, there's a presence with a capital P. And then that bears fruit. So would you agree with this statement that that this compulsive use of technology, whether it's Instagram or you know, I've got a tweet or check my news, that that's a way to avoid a kind of suffering?

SPEAKER_02 24:38

Oh, yes. 100%. That's exactly what it is. Uh and there are many layers to it. It's a way to avoid whatever anxiety or uh even fantasy is preoccupying me right now. It's a way to avoid

— Boredom as a Refusal to Suffer

SPEAKER_02 24:53

the very long wave challenges of my life, and it's ultimately a way to avoid my mortality, my my the my affinitude and limitedness. And um, I can distract myself away from all those things, um, even though the real fruitfulness of those things will only be encountered if I face them. But now we have incredibly well-designed ways to avoid facing them. I mean, better than people have ever had, uh, I think. So, yeah, we are we're amusing ourselves to death. Uh I didn't make that phrase up, but it's a good one.

Michael John Cusick 25:27

Neil Postman, 1986 or 70.

SPEAKER_02 25:31

I couldn't have imagined. I mean, you had to go sit in front of the TV back then to be amused, right? Now we can carry our TVs with us everywhere we go, and it's

— Technology as Avoidance of Mortality

SPEAKER_02 25:38

way better than TV. Like it's way more tailored to you, it's way more responsive to you. It's uh such an improvement over what poor Neil Postman had to write about.

Michael John Cusick 25:47

I'm waiting for the smartphone to be able to make popcorn, and it will say to you, would you like butter with that or that kind of thing? So in this segment, and you're gonna be gracious enough to talk for another episode. I want to close out with this thought, and then I want to come back and talk about the ten commitments that you write about. But around the subject of boredom, you you said we now have the technology to be perpetually distracted from boredom, and thus we never realize how bored we actually are. Talk about that last half about how bored we actually are.

SPEAKER_02 26:17

Well, I think what I'm getting at there is the truth is we live in such banal environments. I mean, you know, where do people most feel bored? I mean, in a way they more most feel bored and places they should be feel bored.

— Neil Postman Was Right — and Had No Idea

SPEAKER_02 26:28

Uh that that supermarket line or the airport or uh sitting in traffic. I mean, the trade-off we've made in uh sort of surrounding ourselves with a device-laden world is it's also a world that's very in on its own, very flat, and it doesn't it isn't very responsive to attention and contemplation.

— How Bored We Actually Are

SPEAKER_02 26:49

I mean, there's only so much to contemplate, like in an airport. I spend way too much of my time in airports, so I I I'm around a lot of like profoundly dangerously bored human beings with lots of distraction, to be sure. But like if you wanted to turn off those distractions, it would be almost unbearable because the environment is so thin, right? It's nothing like being out in creation. And this is a part of why I wanted to start this discipline of being out and just feeling something multi-sensory, like feeling the wind on my on my skin and hearing it, and smelling whatever uh morning kind of aroma there is uh from the dew or the you know, the dry air or whatever it is that day. And and we now live, I mean, just think about how our our olfactory sense has been like collapsed to almost nothing thanks to deodorant and thanks to cleaning devices and how little we smell uh of the world. And if we just would go out of the technologized world, we actually would discover the world itself is incredibly engaging and incredibly full of things to wonder at and to marvel at and to explore. But most of us are encased in this artificial environment that is, you know, very tractable and very useful, but doesn't have anything like the fruitfulness of the fractal, um, abundant natural world. So we are just amazingly bored in a way that that I I think this is why we had to have a word for it. Whereas um I think part of why people didn't talk about being bored for many, many centuries is they they had a lot to do. But, you know, they also they didn't work that much. I mean, they had they they couldn't work at night because they didn't have electric light. Um, they had all in the West, they had all these feast days where they didn't work, and instead they were immersed in a in a world whose aromas and whose sights and sounds were varied and deep in a way that we just cannot even picture as modern people. Uh, and that's the sense in which we are more bored than we know. Um, but you know, it's all still there, and you literally just have to walk out your door without your screen, and and pieces of it will come back to you, and you'll start feeling things and experiencing things again.

Michael John Cusick 29:10

So we've wrapped up another episode of Restoring the Soul. We want you to know that Restoring the Soul is so much more than a podcast. In fact, the heart of what we have done for nearly 20 years is intensive counseling. When you can't wait months or years to get out of the rut you're in, our intensive counseling programs in Colorado allow you to experience deep change in half day blocks over two weeks. To learn more, visit restoring the soul.com. That's restoring the soul.com.