Most people picture narcissism as loud, obvious, and easy to spot. The research says otherwise — and so does the Enneagram.

In this second conversation with Chuck DeGroat, Michael and Chuck work through all nine Enneagram types and the unique way narcissism hides inside each one: the nine's quiet, invisible anger; the two's helpfulness that quietly demands to be needed; the three's stage self that performs even in the counseling room; the seven's flight from anything that feels like limitation. Beneath every number, Chuck argues, the same question is lurking — do you see me, and am I enough? — and the answer we've constructed to cope with that question is where narcissism takes root.

They also talk about what it looks like to hold a narcissistic person without becoming reactive, and why real change — when it happens — is always slow and always looks more like yeast in bread than sudden transformation.

Chuck DeGroat is a professor, counselor, and author of When Narcissism Comes to Church: Healing Your Community from Emotional and Spiritual Abuse.

Click here to listen to Part One of Chuck's conversation with Michael.

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