There are at least three wrong ways to write about heaven, and Brian Zahnd spent his new book carefully avoiding all of them — too sentimental, too sensational, too escapist to bother caring about the world right in front of us.

In this conversation, Brian and Michael talk about why heaven isn't a far-off destination but a realm woven through the space between every atom of this one, and why love and wonder might be the most reliable hints we get of its nearness. Brian shares the mystical moment in Rocky Mountain National Park that reshaped his understanding of the incarnation and makes the case that a faith stripped of transcendence eventually collapses into mere politics — however well-intentioned.

They also talk about pilgrimage, the discipline of praying written prayers, and why so many people are having real spiritual experiences with no idea where it's safe to talk about them.

Brian Zahnd is a pastor of forty-four years and author of Unseen Existences: Of Heaven, Earth, and the Divine Mystery in All Things.

Find Brian Zahnd online here.

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