Ep. 21 Recovery Courts

Prisons are filled with non-violent offenders who normally spend most of their lives incarcerated and have high rates of recidivism, often due to addiction. Recovery courts are opportunities for qualified inmates to overcome adversity through rehabilitative alternatives to prison. Circuit Court Judge Tammy Herrington of the 5th Judicial District, Criminal Court Judge Jim Goodwin of the 2nd Judicial District, Circuit Court Judge Beth Boniface of the 3rd Judicial District  and Circuit Court Judge Mike Pemberton of the 9th Judicial District sit down  to discuss these programs offered in Tennessee.

This podcast is for all audiences and Barbara Peck is your host. 

Produced by Nick Morgan

Transcript

00;00;00;00 - 00;00;18;19
Host
Welcome to Tennessee Court Talk. I'm your host, Barbara Peck, and today we are talking about recovery courts. This podcast is intended for all audiences. My first guest is circuit court judge Terri Harrington of the Fifth Judicial District, which covers Blood County. My second guest is Criminal Court Judge Jim Goodwin of the Second Judicial District, which covers Sullivan County.

00;00;18;21 - 00;00;36;21
Host
My third guest is Circuit Court Judge Beth Boniface of the Third Judicial District, which includes Greene, Hamlin, Hancock and Hawkins counties. My fourth guest is Circuit Court Judge Mike Pemberton of the ninth Judicial District, which includes Loudon, megs, Morgan, and Roane counties. Welcome to all of you.

00;00;36;24 - 00;00;37;04
Judge Goodwin
Thank you.

00;00;37;09 - 00;00;38;17
Judge Pemberton
Thank you. Glad to be here.

00;00;38;19 - 00;00;50;26
Host
So everyone is always very enthusiastic to talk about recovery, cause I did not have to twist anyone's arm to be here today. So, Judge Harrington, let me start with you. What exactly is a recovery court? And when does it come into play?

00;00;50;29 - 00;01;12;07
Judge Harrington
A recovery court in our jurisdiction is a, an opportunity. It usually comes about in our jurisdiction for those offenders that have already been a part of the system for a significant period of time. Obviously, their underlying, criminal behavior and offenses or because of, drug addiction or alcohol addiction. And, it's a program for nonviolent offenders.

00;01;12;09 - 00;01;27;10
Judge Harrington
And there's an intensive screening process not only for your criminal record, your current charges, but then also, are you clinically appropriate for the program? It's intensive. And in many jurisdictions, especially in ours, it is an alternative to prison.

00;01;27;12 - 00;01;30;16
Host
Judge Goodwin, what about in your district is it's in similar setup, pretty.

00;01;30;16 - 00;01;51;16
Judge Goodwin
Much the same high risk, high need, offenders. You know, when I first thought about starting a recovery court, I feel like I think a lot of people do that. Oh, I want to catch these folks at the very front end of their addiction, their very first time in the criminal justice system. And we'll make some changes, and they won't come back.

00;01;51;18 - 00;02;15;12
Judge Goodwin
And it was a shock to find out. No recovery court is just the opposite. Recovery court is to catch those folks who have a high risk to re-offend, a really high need for, treatment and to catch them before they have to go spend a significant amount of time in a bit of history. So it's not a first offender program.

00;02;15;15 - 00;02;19;29
Judge Goodwin
It's a let's see if we can save these people before they're just totally lost.

00;02;20;01 - 00;02;26;29
Host
So how often how many times on average would someone have been involved with the criminal justice system before they go through a recovery court?

00;02;27;02 - 00;02;46;20
Judge Goodwin
I don't have an average. I know in our court they have to have a felony conviction, and they have to have a sufficient length of sentence that they can work their way through the program and have enough time to do that. And it takes 18 months, two years to really do a affect. The kind of behavioral change, that we need.

00;02;46;23 - 00;02;51;20
Host
And, Judge Harrington, you mentioned nonviolent offenses. So give me some examples of that.

00;02;51;23 - 00;03;15;02
Judge Harrington
For our court. There's a large, burglaries, auto burglary, forgery, identity theft, some, criminal possession. Our court is a felony court as well. And you have to have at least two years minimum to be able to complete the program. Obviously, with high risk, high needs, it takes, for our program a lot longer for some people than than just the two years.

00;03;15;04 - 00;03;33;20
Judge Harrington
And so when nonviolent offenders, again, think of, things that the behavior is to, to fuel that drug, addiction. And so, you would not see aggravated assault, you would not see rape, you would not see violent offenses. It's mostly property crimes.

00;03;33;22 - 00;03;45;03
Host
And then what's the process for? Is it the defendant or the defendant defense attorney who makes that motion to for this, defendant to go to recovery court? Or is it the prosecutor, like, who is involved in this.

00;03;45;03 - 00;04;10;12
Judge Harrington
Decision for our jurisdiction? We have a large, recovery court. I average between 120 to 130 people. So when you take our population of our community, the public defender and the district attorney obviously sit on our team, they're heavily involved. Our, criminal defense bar. So it is a process where anyone can bring the recovery court option to the table.

00;04;10;14 - 00;04;33;18
Judge Harrington
And so the D.A. might offer it as an alternative to a prison sentence. The defense attorney may come in and say, my, my person is finally interested in recovery court. It's offered in lots of times. It's not taken the first time it's offered. People may go to prison and come back and re-offend, and then they're offered recovery court, and they realize that maybe now's the time that I do need to take it.

00;04;33;21 - 00;05;01;14
Judge Harrington
So that process, happens for a lot of reasons. It may be a probation officer that suggests that recovery court is an option. And then the process begins. We have referral forms that are in the courtrooms, be that sessions court, circuit court, criminal court. And those are, processed the they're sent to the recovery court office, a criminal history is obtained, and then it's sent to the district attorney for them to have that first review of whether or not their charges are appropriate.

00;05;01;16 - 00;05;04;02
Host
And, Judge Boniface, tell us a little bit about your court.

00;05;04;05 - 00;05;32;23
Judge Boniface
So we have currently about 40 people in our court. We meet weekly. We have very intensive oversight. One of the nice parts about our court is the community has really gotten involved with our court. We have the Chamber of Commerce. The head of that came to our court the other day because he had employers that were talking to him about the fact that our participants are the best employees that they've had.

00;05;32;25 - 00;05;59;12
Judge Boniface
And they're like, we need to get this out to everyone and let them know that this is a great, place to find employees. And so we've really gotten a lot of community support. Our county, commission is completely behind us. They recently have purchased two homes for us so that we can have sober living homes. That's one of our biggest challenges is finding housing for these people.

00;05;59;14 - 00;06;09;06
Judge Boniface
So, you know, I think that's one of the really defining parts of our court is how the community has really offered up a lot of support.

00;06;09;09 - 00;06;21;21
Host
Okay. So, so criminal court happens sort of at sentencing is an alternative sentencing. And instead of going to jail you're going to accept recovery court. So what exactly is it a participant going to do in recovery court?

00;06;21;26 - 00;06;53;27
Judge Harrington
In our recovery court. Ours is a little different because we have partnered with our sheriff's department to provide a stabilization phase. Years ago, we did not have access to inpatient treatment that we needed because as they've talked about, these are high risk, high needs offenders. And to have an inpatient component became really important for us. And so we have a stabilization phase where for the first six weeks they work, they're incarcerated, but they are in treatment.

00;06;53;29 - 00;07;18;25
Judge Harrington
And our treatment providers go to the Blount County Detention Facility and provide inpatient treatment. We have Helen Ross McNab, who goes in and maybe does a mental health evaluation. We then start out assessing where they going to live, because we have trouble finding appropriate safe housing. And we have a foundation that that works with our men's house and our women's house and they run those.

00;07;18;27 - 00;07;43;11
Judge Harrington
And so the for you complete that stabilization phase and then you start what is a four phase program and then aftercare. Each of our phases is designed to ultimately lead to independence. And long term sobriety. So for the first phase you're going to do intensive outpatient. When you first get out, you're going to more likely than not live in one of the foundation's sober living homes.

00;07;43;14 - 00;08;04;20
Judge Harrington
You cannot seek employment for the first few days. But, as Judge Boniface had stated, we have a very good relationship with our local employers. Years ago, it was a problem to get, jobs. Now, our, participants are in high demand by our local companies, which has been just a blessing. You're going to start individual treatment.

00;08;04;21 - 00;08;26;17
Judge Harrington
You're going to be in group treatment. You're going to have classes. You are going to be, subjected to a random drug screen on a daily basis. And, you start that process. You have outside meetings, you have meetings at your halfway house. And so you come to court every week. So our program begins. There is not a much free time.

00;08;26;20 - 00;08;48;22
Judge Harrington
And that continues into phase two. As you get into phase three. There might be more free time. It is structured that when we step back as far as less group treatment, your requirements of outside a, you know, meetings increase. And so the idea is that you become part of the sober living community as you advance through the program.

00;08;48;25 - 00;09;15;00
Judge Harrington
Ours includes life skills. At certain phases, you're required to have a checking account. At certain phases, you're required to adhere to a budget. So we say recovery court. But it really and I'm sure it is for everyone else is life court. It is really trying to, hold individuals accountable as citizens and clean and sober citizens. And oftentimes you have individuals that that have never done that before.

00;09;15;03 - 00;09;25;22
Judge Harrington
And so you have to be there every step of the way to teach those skills. It takes some time. But, with those first successes, you do get more motivation.

00;09;25;25 - 00;09;27;22
Host
And Judge Goodwin, is your court similar?

00;09;27;22 - 00;09;53;13
Judge Goodwin
Like it's very similar. I think we in this second phase, as I get later on, they're actually required to work. They're required to hit that budget and get that out there, but kind of pretty quickly. And they're required to pay fines and costs, as part of the program. And what's interesting is that, yeah, it is a life court.

00;09;53;15 - 00;10;28;20
Judge Goodwin
You know, I think that's a really great way to say it, but these folks, for the most part, they've never had someone in authority ever tell them that they were worth anything. They've never had someone say a judge, a father, a mother, tell them that they're proud of and something as simple as those words make a huge impact in the motivation and getting the folks to to do what they they need to do.

00;10;28;23 - 00;10;57;12
Judge Harrington
We get to a certain point in our program, and our participants will even say that, that they understand that accountability. Accountability starts to feel good and that that they've always thought accountability or thought a responsibility. But there is a transition, especially with incentives and the praise and and being part of a community, but that they will actually come to realize that accountability and adhering to requirements feels good.

00;10;57;15 - 00;11;01;11
Host
So what is your role as a judge in a recovery court?

00;11;01;14 - 00;11;28;02
Judge Boniface
I think the role is to, like they said, you give guidance, but you also give a lot of praise. And they come into my court and they're so nervous the participants can't speak. Some of them were like literally shaking because every time that they've been in court, it has been an extremely negative experience for them. So when they come into my court, I try to first get them to get at ease a little bit.

00;11;28;04 - 00;11;45;13
Judge Boniface
You have to hold them accountable. But at the same point, you also have to tell them, wow, you did great today. You got a raise and they are so proud of themselves. You got your G one. Your high sit now. That's a big thing. You know, for them to achieve that. We help them try to get their license back, you know.

00;11;45;13 - 00;12;07;27
Judge Boniface
And so you do a lot of praise and, like I said, though, if they slip in, they will. I mean, it's not a straight line process. You definitely have to hold them accountable. But also, I think you have to let them know that that was a one time slip. It doesn't mean that we now think you're a certain type of person, like you're not going to make it or they a lot of times they get into the mindset of, oh, I messed up.

00;12;07;27 - 00;12;15;13
Judge Boniface
I'm not going to even try anymore. So you have to kind of bring them out of that mentality and get them back on the positive side.

00;12;15;16 - 00;12;17;11
Host
So is relapse part of the process?

00;12;17;11 - 00;12;35;23
Judge Boniface
Absolutely. As well as any, especially if you look at different phases. Phase one when you first get them in, a lot of people are going to have a I mean, they don't have any skills yet. We haven't gotten them the help that they need. So you'll have a lot of relapse in phase one. Now they start doing it in phase five.

00;12;35;23 - 00;12;48;17
Judge Boniface
Then you're looking at self-sabotage, you know, why do you want to put yourself back in trouble? And so there may be some other therapy and things like that that you have to address because they shouldn't be relapsing once they get to that stage.

00;12;48;19 - 00;13;16;25
Judge Harrington
I will say this, the relapse and the mistakes. They do serve a purpose, for a lot of participants in that they are so used to making a mistake or failing a drug screen and then running from the consequence because it's going to be locked up, thrown away. And so that first relapse or that first mistake, and they come to court and we deal with it and we move on, is really that first step and step in trusting the process.

00;13;16;27 - 00;13;36;14
Judge Harrington
So you see a lot of people that are very skeptical and they're fighting the process. And then they realize, wait a minute, perfection is not expected. They're not going to throw me away. They're still going to be here for me. And then you start getting that buy in because you have offenders that have been a part of the process for years and years, and they don't trust it.

00;13;36;16 - 00;13;51;11
Judge Harrington
I have a lot of people that have never voluntarily walked through a courtroom door. They've always come in through the jail side. And so little by little, when they start realizing, wait a minute, they're not going to throw me away. You start being able to make more progress.

00;13;51;14 - 00;13;57;10
Host
So tell us about your court, because I know your recovery court is a little bit different than the other three judges. So tell us about yours.

00;13;57;13 - 00;14;25;09
Judge Pemberton
Well, it is it's a lot different there. I run a lot of run. I work with a residential recovery court. That takes folks from the other frontline, what I call frontline drug courts, three of which you just heard from. We take folks from Mountain City to Memphis, that have, for whatever reason or reasons, have, flunked out of their local drug court.

00;14;25;11 - 00;14;51;04
Judge Pemberton
But yet the drug, court, the judge or the and and the, team there and the local drug court think that this particular individual still has a shot rather than being sent straight to prison. So they send them to us where we will keep them and work with them in a very intensive inpatient environment for at least a year.

00;14;51;07 - 00;15;22;00
Judge Pemberton
And they and sometimes longer than a year. And, I, I certainly agree with the judges who have just spoken about it being a life court for a lot of folks, it's a life or death court. Is the reality. And so our court is different. These folks are on the frontlines. We're sort of the back line last resort before going to prison for a long time.

00;15;22;02 - 00;15;35;19
Judge Pemberton
And so we get these folks, men, and we keep them for at least a year, and they go through an intensive program. During that period of time. Residential. They don't leave.

00;15;35;21 - 00;15;42;27
Host
And so we have all the other three. Judge, have you referred participants to Judge Pemberton's court? And at what point do you do that?

00;15;43;00 - 00;16;05;16
Judge Goodwin
And he's right. It's sort of a last resort. You're sitting there and you've got a participant, and you've tried everything that you know to do, and you're still scratching your head at the fact that they're just not getting it. So we can refer them to Morgan County and, you know, they've got one more shot before they have to go serve whatever prison sentence they have.

00;16;05;18 - 00;16;25;00
Host
Okay. So we talked a little bit about obviously, Judge Pemberton's court isn't an inpatient process, but the three of you also talked about housing and for your own court. So talk a little bit about like why is housing important? I know for other recovery court judges, if we talk to you, it's often an issue. And it's a hard one to find because it's, you know, expensive.

00;16;25;00 - 00;16;31;00
Host
And you have to find a place for people to live. So we'll talk a little bit about the, the need for housing and how you handle that in your recovery court.

00;16;31;04 - 00;17;03;25
Judge Goodwin
I think it's the number one issue. To quote another, recovery court judge that I respect and, and kind of look up to if you can't change their playground and their playmates, you have a really uphill battle. If you may not even you may not even even get there. So housing if you if you can't change where they live, where they are and the people that they associate with, then you just you're, you're you're basically setting them up for failure.

00;17;03;27 - 00;17;28;06
Judge Goodwin
And you know, when I first started my program, we had a community corrections program, one of the few in the state that had a residential component to it. So when I first started my recovery court, everybody went from the jail to what we call the jailhouse, and they were in a residential facility. And in about 2019 that went away.

00;17;28;09 - 00;18;07;16
Judge Goodwin
And the need for housing really hit home. And it's it's difficult. I'm totally envious. Envious of Blunt County. But they have a foundation. They have their own. Sober living. We we have to rely on what, sober living houses called Oxford houses. And we've recently partnered with, Recovery Resources. They're an organization that has housing for men that the many of the sober living houses basically have one of the participants who live there, basically as their president.

00;18;07;19 - 00;18;29;23
Judge Goodwin
And then that person sort of runs the house with recovery resources. And beautiful thing about Morgan County is you don't have that. You have you have a house or a facility that is actually run by professionals. Not the people that live there. So that's one of our biggest hurdles. It is, is getting appropriate housing.

00;18;29;26 - 00;18;49;04
Judge Boniface
We could have more people in our program. If we had housing, I only have one. It's called mats, and they're very wonderful. You have to meet certain criteria, but you can get we can place them in mats. And there's also breath of Life ministries. But those are the only two places. And Breath of Life is only for males.

00;18;49;07 - 00;19;14;01
Judge Boniface
And mats is a very. You can only stay for a short period of time. And so we we really could not sometimes get people into the program. We had absolutely nowhere to put them. The rental house market is insane in our area. And so with the two new houses that luckily, the, the opioid settlement allowed us, the county was very gracious.

00;19;14;01 - 00;19;32;27
Judge Boniface
They gave also to the, Carter County new in-patient that they're going to do up there with Jim Goodwin and George Street and Judge Rice. But they also gave me enough money to buy two different homes. But without that, our program, we were stopped because there's no where to put people. Absolutely nowhere.

00;19;32;29 - 00;20;12;26
Judge Pemberton
And from the recovery standpoint, the residential recovery court standpoint, obviously we have them housing 12 months or longer, but then when they successfully complete our program, we send them back to the local drug court program from where they came. And from our perspective, the number one indicator of future success of those folks that we send back is stable housing and the and the drug courts that the, the local drug courts that have the housing component, the folks that we send back have the greatest chance of future success.

00;20;12;29 - 00;20;28;08
Judge Pemberton
And they can go to that housing and they can continue to move along in their program with the local drug court until ultimately, they will graduate from that program just like they graduated from our residential program.

00;20;28;10 - 00;20;54;24
Judge Harrington
So when we get our participants from Morgan County, when they come back to us, they go automatically to our men's apartment complex. That is part of the foundation. And so it is very important. And even when they come in to visit, they stay at our men's apartments and sober living. And so that's an automatic pipeline that when you come back from Morgan County, you're going to our men's sober living apartment complex.

00;20;54;27 - 00;21;15;20
Judge Harrington
So you talked about the foundation. It's it's interesting. I'm not sure how many recovery courts have a foundation, but it was, in the works when I took the bench in 2011. And then they asked that we continue to try to to achieve that goal of A501 C3. The only way that we were able to do that was because of our participants.

00;21;15;23 - 00;21;39;09
Judge Harrington
Obviously when you go to the community and you ask for money for drug addicts, it's not a popular cause. It is not well received. And so we tried to be creative. And how do we educate the community? So we started a public speaking tour with our participants. We went to Kiwanis. We went to rotary, we went to the leadership, blunt and some of the other organizations.

00;21;39;11 - 00;21;54;11
Judge Harrington
Then the next thing you know, we're invited to the schools. And so we're they're speaking to the seventh graders. We're there at the day of prom. And we found through all of this that no one wanted to hear from us. They don't want to hear from judges. They don't want to hear from DA's. They want to hear from the participants.

00;21;54;13 - 00;22;18;13
Judge Harrington
And so through that process, we got a lot of community support, and we're able to start the 501 C3. We started with one single house that, quite honestly, was bought by one of our graduates and leased back to the program. And then as we proceeded on, we were able to then another, some a person, bought an apartment complex, leased that back to the program.

00;22;18;20 - 00;22;40;27
Judge Harrington
And what's really interesting about it is our foundation runs the houses. We have graduates that work at the houses, full time staff members that work at those sober living placements. But our participants pay rent and they pay the, the, the, Foundation. They may receive a grant or a scholarship for a down payment because oftentimes they don't have anyone to do that for them.

00;22;40;29 - 00;23;00;07
Judge Harrington
But in our program very early on, if you're not employed full time, you're doing the equivalent amount of community service. And it doesn't take but a minute to realize you don't want to work for free. And so, and if you get behind on your rent, then you're placed on restrictions and on all of those issues. So it really was a blessing.

00;23;00;09 - 00;23;21;18
Judge Harrington
Some of our people, we can't leave them in Black County in the beginning. So we we partner with Iron Gate, which is a program in Knoxville that was started by one of our graduates, which has become very successful. And then Jelinek, possibly Curtis in Chattanooga. What I have found is, is it was difficult and a little overwhelming when we got so big, having so many participants.

00;23;21;25 - 00;23;32;14
Judge Harrington
But the bigger we we have become, the more resources we have through our graduates and through our participants, and through just the sheer fact that we have to partner with so many places.

00;23;32;20 - 00;24;07;03
Judge Pemberton
And one thing that I think the public is beginning to understand, and that certainly elected officials are beginning to understand, is that drug courts ultimately save taxpayer dollars. First and foremost, it's about saving human beings. It's about saving lives, but it also saves taxpayer dollars. Most of the folks that we get that are referred to us at the recovery court in Morgan County have multiple prison year, multiple year prison sentences that they would be serving.

00;24;07;07 - 00;24;32;10
Judge Pemberton
Okay. And the numbers, you know, have for serving in prison, I'm told that it's somewhere between maybe 30 to $33,000 a year. That it cost the state of Tennessee. Well, I don't know what the cost is for the local drug courts, but for our drug court, we can do that. Our whole program for about 18, $19,000 a year per participant.

00;24;32;17 - 00;25;11;17
Judge Pemberton
And I tell them when they come in, they don't realize how lucky they are to be here, because there's only three of these soon to be four. With Carter County coming online residence programs, there's only three residential programs in the state two for males, one for females, that just opened in Nashville about a year ago. But I tell them that somewhere somebody believed in them enough to send them to this court, because if they had this problem and were not in the criminal justice system, and they had to go out and pay for a year long residential treatment, they would be spending a quarter of a million or more dollars to pay for that.

00;25;11;19 - 00;25;46;01
Judge Pemberton
We do it for 19.. 18..19, $20,000 a year cost to the taxpayers. That's for one year. They come to us with multiple year prison sentences. Do the math. Three times 30 something is 90 something thousand. We do it for 19 or 20 or thereabouts. And so convincing elected officials, I think that may have been a problem in the past, and I'm sure the housing component is the most expensive component for the housing guys for the local drug court.

00;25;46;03 - 00;25;54;10
Judge Pemberton
But the dollars and cents really make sense from the from the taxpayer perspective. Once you show it.

00;25;54;12 - 00;26;21;26
Judge Harrington
And I can give an example, we have a graduate that went through the Morgan County Residential Recovery Court program. He has a 25 year sentence, 25 years, and he completed that program, came back to us in phase three. This has been many years ago, many years ago, and now is employed by our foundation, works for him in sober living house and runs the meetings, the AA NA meetings.

00;26;21;28 - 00;26;46;10
Judge Harrington
And is is heavily involved in the program. But when you take just one person in the cost of incarceration for 25 years and this individual is is working, paying taxes, raising his children, and not only that, giving back to the community through the foundation and is heavily involved. I think that's a prime example of the cost benefit and especially even working with both programs.

00;26;46;12 - 00;26;50;16
Judge Pemberton
Exactly. I mean, that's that's probably the best example I've heard.

00;26;50;21 - 00;27;08;09
Host
Do you you mentioned a little bit about employers. So what they do in your programs at work there is, is does a participant have to be employed. And then what what kind of what kind of employers do they often go to and how do employers enact and interact with your program?

00;27;08;11 - 00;27;22;16
Judge Goodwin
Everybody's looking at me. So in in our, in our court, they can work in phase two. They have to be working by phase three. I don't know about the other courts, but.

00;27;22;19 - 00;27;46;12
Judge Boniface
We have a slight difference in ours. You most of them were working in phase one. Tell you the truth. They get out and they start working. But we also allow, if they're doing, full time education TCAT, we've got several people that TCAT. So not only when they come out of this program will they be sober and, good employees, they also will actually have a skill.

00;27;46;13 - 00;28;04;28
Judge Boniface
I mean, they can set up their own business if they want to. We've got a welder. We've got, one of our female is doing the, it's a auto mechanic thing for big trucks. I don't know what you call that. But. So if they're doing that, they don't have to have a job. If they don't, they're not going to education.

00;28;04;28 - 00;28;10;08
Judge Boniface
Then they do have to have a job. And most of them have it phase one, but they absolutely have to have it by phase three.

00;28;10;08 - 00;28;32;22
Judge Harrington
Ours is when you come out to your the first two weeks you're in intensive outpatient, and then after that you have to seek full time employment. We have a, employment agency that we work with called gear in in Black County. They staff several of our graduates that help with the placement. And they work not just with us.

00;28;32;22 - 00;28;56;03
Judge Harrington
They work with the Knox County community. They serve a homeless population. Other recovery court, but they partner with several companies. And, it's really an amazing program. They will help you find your steel toed boots. They will walk you to the floor of the factory the first few days that you're there. And they really have an understanding of what it's like to have not worked in that kind of environment.

00;28;56;05 - 00;29;19;09
Judge Harrington
And to help with that, then we also have several employers that we have sent Recovery Corps participants to over the years. They've done a good job. And by word of mouth, hey, do you know anyone else that wants to work here? And so we have several companies that, if several participants are working there, then the Covid crisis and the employment crisis was really beneficial to us.

00;29;19;11 - 00;29;41;12
Judge Harrington
When people were looking for workers, we had them. And then they realized, wait a minute, someone else is going to be drug screening them. Someone else is going to be supervising them. Someone else is going to hold them accountable if they don't show up for work. And it's a sanction in our program. If you quit a job without notice, if you leave a job for another job and you don't do that appropriately.

00;29;41;15 - 00;30;03;04
Judge Harrington
And so then we had people calling us, hey, do you have anybody that might want to go to heavy equipment operator school? We're willing to pay their tuition if they'll maybe want to sign on with us for a couple of years. And it became just a wonderful, really a benefit to our, individuals to be able to have these opportunities at careers.

00;30;03;07 - 00;30;13;25
Judge Harrington
And so we have Rubbermaid, Denso, a lot of different corporations that, employ our people. So, again, Covid was good to us.

00;30;13;28 - 00;30;35;04
Judge Goodwin
We we have several companies, up in Sullivan County that, it's just exactly like you said, you know, they hired one of our participants. They realized, hey, wait, they're getting drug straight. How many times a week? You know? So. And it's the same thing. It's word of mouth. It's like, hey, do you have other people who you can, you know, in your program you can bring to us?

00;30;35;06 - 00;30;37;25
Judge Goodwin
So we we have had that same experience.

00;30;37;27 - 00;30;56;09
Judge Harrington
I think they realized that they have a certain part of the population that's using that that's not being supervised. So they had a lot of, sickness, a lot of call it a lot of things, just with the general working population. And so then they realized, wait a minute, this is a much easier route to take.

00;30;56;14 - 00;31;00;17
Judge Pemberton
But, well, and sober employees, generally a productive employee.

00;31;00;20 - 00;31;10;06
Judge Boniface
Well, you get a sanction for not showing up at work. Your going to go to work And that is all the employers. They want somebody there that is, you know, reliable.

00;31;10;08 - 00;31;20;20
Host
So so in addition to employers. And we talked a little bit about the foundations. But how else to do your program to interact with the community. And why do you need community support.

00;31;20;27 - 00;31;43;20
Judge Goodwin
For your programs. Basically the interaction that we've had is the, director and I will go to different civic groups, have presentations just to kind of get the word out so people know. I go talk to the lawyers all the time because we're wanting, you know, the lawyers are the ones who typically send us the, participants.

00;31;43;22 - 00;32;00;28
Judge Goodwin
It can be others. This, Judge Harrington said, so we go to the bar association meetings and reach out to those folks. We send our participants to, job fairs through the probation office quite regularly. So.

00;32;01;01 - 00;32;13;24
Judge Boniface
I think also the community support for, medical, dental, some of that is very important. And so we also have to try to say, look, we've got this population that could really use your help.

00;32;13;26 - 00;32;43;13
Host
And oftentimes, I mean, people come into your programs with basically nothing. Nothing. So it's not just they need a place to live. They don't have, I'm assuming bedding and pots and clothes, shoes and yes, dental care and and things like that. And so you I mean, you, you must need a lot of community partners and to sort of help get these people in a position where they're ready to work and ready to be open to treatment and, and benefit from treatment.

00;32;43;13 - 00;32;53;27
Host
Because obviously, if you're in need of root canals, you probably are going to be struggling with your therapy. I would assume having done it, it's kind of painful. It's not therapy, but the root canal. So I think sometimes.

00;32;53;29 - 00;32;55;02
Judge Goodwin
Sometimes both are painful.

00;32;55;02 - 00;32;55;11
Host
Yes.

00;32;55;11 - 00;32;58;06
Judge Harrington
But if you're doing it right. Yeah.

00;32;58;09 - 00;33;15;29
Host
So I think I think a lot of community support it probably be helpful. I mean, you know, like even just like clothes and things like that so as to where to work. You want me to work, but, I mean, I've been living on the streets and pregnant cars for the last six months. So how am I supposed to, you know, have clothes to go to work or all of that?

00;33;16;01 - 00;33;24;09
Host
And what about, the inpatient facility? How do you sort of work with the community? Is everything sort of included in your. Did you have partners and staff as well?

00;33;24;11 - 00;33;54;18
Judge Pemberton
Our facility, obviously they don't work. Well, they work, but they don't work outside the facility. They, have about four hours a day of class and group and therapy and things of that nature. And then, we grow up, we grow all of our own vegetables. I mean, we have a woodworking shop. We, as I said, we have a, I don't know, 3 or 4 acre garden, in the, inpatient folks, they do the cooking.

00;33;54;18 - 00;34;33;00
Judge Pemberton
I mean, they do everything in that regard, but a substantial component of their recovery is community service. We can't do the, the work component because these are folks who who haven't succeeded at the, at at the local drug court. So we don't do that, but we do a lot of, community work for churches and schools and things of that nature, particularly at schools in the summer, we'll go out and, and do whatever we are asked to do, pretty much depending upon the skill level of the people that we have there at the current time.

00;34;33;02 - 00;34;52;06
Judge Pemberton
But one thing that I do want to touch on is, is you were talking about what do these folks need? It's interesting from and I mentioned this before we went on the air, that from the time we get them until they time that they graduate from our program and we send them back to their local drug court.

00;34;52;08 - 00;35;19;10
Judge Pemberton
You. It's hard sometimes to even recognize that person that walks out from the person that walked in our average weight gain from from from the time we get them to the time we they leave us is 47 pounds. And that's not because they're just sitting around eating, okay. It's because they come in basically emaciated and, have substantial dental problems and things of that nature.

00;35;19;12 - 00;35;28;02
Judge Pemberton
So I mean, it's a it's a life changing experience. Bottom line, that's the goal. That's what we want it to be.

00;35;28;05 - 00;35;46;11
Host
So for all of you, as judges, I want you all to answer this, this question on your own. But but why do you do this? Because my understanding is you're not getting any extra pay for this. I mean, you're meeting people every week, and you already have busy docket. And I've added this docket, this this recovery court docket.

00;35;46;13 - 00;35;57;14
Host
You don't get any extra money. It's a lot of extra work. So why? And I'll start with you, judge Goodwin, can you say you started your recovery by. Why do you do it?

00;35;57;16 - 00;36;38;20
Judge Goodwin
Yeah, that's that's a good question. So I'm going to I'm going to tell you about I think she was the third person that we brought into our court. I'm not going to tell your name, but she had been using very heavily for a long time, committing crimes. She had lost her husband. She lost her kids. She had spent a considerable time, amount of time in the Sullivan County jail and when her lawyer asked her if she wanted to try this new program called recovery Court, she was like, you know, this is the way I can get out of jail, the way I can get out of jail.

00;36;38;27 - 00;37;06;02
Judge Goodwin
She and in her mind, she's and she's told me all of this, but in her mind, it was I can get out of jail right now. There's no way that I can make it. I mean, I will not complete this program, but for now, I'm out of jail. So she came for a couple of weeks struggle, but she came and she listened, and she started participating in the group.

00;37;06;04 - 00;37;17;25
Judge Goodwin
And she started to buy in very slowly and at some point she decided, well, I'm going to be here. I might as well try.

00;37;17;28 - 00;37;58;06
Judge Goodwin
And she works her way through the program. But once that light went off in her own mind, she did really well. She never relapsed after that. She may have relapsed once before that, but I don't recall. So we get to graduation, and she's one of the first people who graduate. And at this point, she not only has a job, she's a regional manager for, a chain of restaurants.

00;37;58;08 - 00;38;12;20
Judge Goodwin
She's not only in our relationship, she got her. Her and her husband reunited because he got clean. And so. After she graduated, she got her kids back.

00;38;12;22 - 00;38;45;16
Judge Goodwin
And she's continued to flourish ever since. And I thought, you know, this is a great story, and I can I can, you know, I can tell folks about her. And it's really good for the program. Well, she came back to the second or third graduation just to show support. And we got to talking and she said, you know, right before I got this paperwork, I was very, very seriously considering taking my life because I had nothing left to live for, lost my husband, lost my kids.

00;38;45;19 - 00;39;18;26
Judge Goodwin
There was nothing in life for me anymore. And the reason I do this is because of folks like her. This program saved her life. Not just because it got her off drugs, but he gave her purpose. And for all the heartache, for all the headaches, for all those days where you have to go in there and every single participant has had a bad week, I think about this one person, and I know that we're saving lives.

00;39;18;26 - 00;39;31;21
Judge Goodwin
I mean, it's not that well, research shows that you're saving lives or anecdotally, you're saving lives. No, I know we saved her life and that's what I do.

00;39;31;23 - 00;39;46;10
Host
I mean, and Judge Boniface, so you don't even have criminal court jurisdiction. You are a civil court judge. So why why do you why do you do this? Why did you raise your hand and say, you know what, I'm going to be the one to decide to do the recovery court?

00;39;46;12 - 00;40;08;05
Judge Boniface
The mayor came to me and he said, look, we used to have a misdemeanor court. We want to make it a felony court. And, we think you would be the right fit. I, I was hesitant, like you said, I don't do criminal work at all. So I was like, okay, I'll give it a shot, but I absolutely,

00;40;08;08 - 00;40;33;08
Judge Boniface
People that come into our program are broken. They're they've had such tremendous amount of trauma in their lives and they've had no ability. Or help to get the treatment that they need. And so when they come into my court, I see this person, and it's just it's a shell of a person. And the wonderful part is, as we all work together as a team, you start to see this person really grow.

00;40;33;10 - 00;40;53;07
Judge Boniface
I have a guy that was in our, he's in his 40s. He had never, since the age of 18 been out of jail for Thanksgiving. He is now been out of jail for two consecutive Thanksgivings. His family's put back together. We had court the other day and we had another baby shower, and we had three, babies that were there.

00;40;53;07 - 00;41;18;26
Judge Boniface
Everybody brought their babies that had been born during the recovery process, and they were all clean. They were born clean. And so you get all these wonderful, moments where you can see that this person that just had no faith in themselves whatsoever, really has grown and and it just it makes you feel wonderful to be just even a little bit of that, just to be a part of it.

00;41;19;03 - 00;41;37;03
Judge Boniface
So, no, we don't get money for it. But, I would lie if I said that I'm not getting paid because emotionally I get paid every day that I go to court, even on the tough days. But it's just a wonderful, wonderful to be part of somebody's life in a positive way.

00;41;37;06 - 00;41;40;11
Host
Judge Pemberton.

00;41;40;14 - 00;42;03;24
Judge Pemberton
Well, I'm going to quote Judge Seth Norman. It's all of us know. Judge Norman was a pioneer. And in drug courts and residential recovery courts, having started DC Forward Nashville and having started the court that I work with, Morgan County. And Judge Norman always says these are good people with a bad problem, that we give them the tools to help themselves.

00;42;03;26 - 00;42;14;05
Judge Pemberton
And I think that's true. That's what we did as to why we do it, I know I it's pretty simple to me. It's the right thing to do.

00;42;16;02 - 00;42;49;05
Judge Harrington
I would echo what everyone else has said. It is very rewarding. It places you, in a position to make a difference in your community in a completely unique way. And so lots of times when we go speak to our community, I will start with saying, you know, we have so many people in the Blount County Jail right now, and if you don't think that they are part of this community, then you're fooling yourself because just locking someone up and ignoring them does not change the fact that eventually they are going to get out.

00;42;49;07 - 00;43;26;26
Judge Harrington
And they are they are going to be in this community. And so to to ignore that, is really unrealistic. And so we have our individuals and, come to us and a lot of dysfunction. But I always talk about it in recovery court. I end up saying it almost every week. We may be a dysfunctional family from the outside looking in, but we are a functioning family and being a part of that, being a part of those changes, those successes, but then also being there for the hard times to to help someone navigate their way through that.

00;43;26;28 - 00;44;03;04
Judge Harrington
It is very rewarding. And it is it is a way to make a substantial and a long lasting difference, not only for the safety of your community, but a difference for families who are, you know, children that are reunited with their parents, parents who come in and they don't have to wait on that phone call in the middle of the night thinking that their child has has OD'd somewhere, employers that come to us and say thank you, but but then those individuals that that just have that sense of pride in their accomplishments and they're not thrown away anymore.

00;44;03;07 - 00;44;16;01
Judge Harrington
It is an extremely rewarding experience to be a part of all of their hard work. We don't do the work. They do the work. And and so I think that's important to recognize that part of it.

00;44;16;04 - 00;44;21;20
Host
All right. Well, thank you all for being guests on this edition of Tennessee Court Talk.

00;44;21;22 - 00;44;22;12
Judge Goodwin
Thank you, thank.

00;44;22;12 - 00;44;24;25
Judge Pemberton
You, thank you.