Ep. 32 Humanizing The Bench with Judge Steve Stafford

The simple explanation of the role of an appellate court judge is to determine whether or not the law was applied correctly in the trial court. However, everyone in an appellate courtroom is human and judges strive to understand the situations of the parties in front of them. Some of those situations can be very personal, especially for self-represented litigants. In this episode, host Nick Morgan, Digital Media Lead for the Administrative Office of the Courts sits down with Tennessee Court of Appeals Judge Steve Stafford to discuss the difference between being impartial and understanding tough situations. 

This episode is for all audiences. 

Produced by David Stripling, Tennessee Administrative Office of the Courts

Transcript

00;00;00;00 - 00;00;12;26
Judge Stafford
In just a moment, I'm going to ask you to introduce yourself. You need to tell us your name, and then you can tell with whatever it is you want to tell us about this case. Yes. We're going to give you 15 minutes to do that.

00;00;12;29 - 00;00;19;15
Host
That is Tennessee Court of Appeals Judge Stephen Stafford, explaining the rules of procedure in appellate court.

00;00;19;19 - 00;00;31;14
Judge Stafford
Light will turn green, and as long as the light green, you've got plenty of time. The light will turn yellow. When the time is beginning to run out and the light will turn red when your time's used up.

00;00;31;14 - 00;00;40;19
Nick Morgan
He's explaining what to expect at the podium, while a self represented litigant argues their case, even going as far as explaining what the lights mean in front of them.

00;00;40;24 - 00;00;59;03
Judge Stafford
Once we hear from you, we'll take this matter under advisement. In other words, we're not going to rule today like a trial court does. We're going to take the record, read the record, review your brief, and then we're going to write a written opinion, which we will mail to you along with the other side.

00;00;59;05 - 00;00;59;12
Pro Se Litigant
Yes, sir.

00;00;59;21 - 00;01;02;07
Judge Stafford
Okay. Do you have any question about any of that?

00;01;02;10 - 00;01;03;01
Pro Se Litigant
No, sir.

00;01;03;03 - 00;01;04;26
Judge Stafford
All right. Are you ready to proceed?

00;01;05;03 - 00;01;05;10
Pro Se Litigant
Yes, sir

00;01;05;18 - 00;01;16;28
Nick Morgan
Okay. I'm your host, Nick Morgan, Digital Media Lead for the Tennessee Administrative Office of the courts. And welcome to Tennessee Court talk.

00;01;17;00 - 00;01;28;29
Nick Morgan
Joining me on today's episode is Court of Appeals Judge Stephen Stafford to discuss his role in the state court system and what you might call the softer side of the bench. Judge Stafford, welcome to Tennessee Court talk.

00;01;29;03 - 00;01;29;23
Judge Stafford
Thank you. Nick.

00;01;30;01 - 00;01;42;13
Nick Morgan
For people who are listening, who may not be as familiar with the appellate court system and the difference in a trial court and an appellate court, you serve on the western section of the Tennessee Court of Appeals. Can you tell us about your position?

00;01;42;16 - 00;02;10;24
Judge Stafford
I am one of 12 judges on the Court of Appeals. We have four from each section, four from the West, four from the middle and four from the east. We sit as one court, which means that each judge, we all interchange. In other words, I can sit in the middle section or the eastern section, as can any judge.

00;02;10;26 - 00;02;45;02
Judge Stafford
We're appellate court judges, which is a big difference. In the job responsibilities of, a trial court judge. Trial court judge. When you, you you think about, what you see on TV. You see a, a judge with a jury, with witnesses taking evidence, making decisions. Taking the jury's decision, perhaps in criminal cases, doing some sentencing.

00;02;45;05 - 00;03;10;29
Judge Stafford
We don't do that in the appellate court. What we do is review the record from the trial court, and, that's that's a word that has a lot of different meanings. But essentially the record is the transcript of evidence, which is the testimony that was presented in the trial court. And then we review the briefs that the parties submit, and we do our research.

00;03;11;00 - 00;03;35;14
Judge Stafford
We look at, the decision of the trial court to determine whether or not it's supported by the evidence, and then write an opinion. So we don't render a decision like the trial court does. Normally, the trial court will render an oral decision and then follow it with a written decision. The way the appellate court speaks is through its written opinion.

00;03;35;16 - 00;04;01;08
Nick Morgan
In my role here at the Tennessee court system, I live stream a few thousand appellate court cases per year. It's been my experience that you're known for being extremely approachable in the courtroom. Taking time for arguments to explain, step by step, the procedures and protocols of the courtroom. You do that with both attorneys and litigants who are representing themselves, and you offer the opportunity to ask questions all the time.

00;04;01;11 - 00;04;03;22
Nick Morgan
How would you describe your approach.

00;04;03;24 - 00;04;46;29
Judge Stafford
When you have an appellate panel sitting that's normally in the intermediate appellate court? You have three judges. One of the three judges is, denoted as the presiding judge. When I am the presiding judge, I have I approach things in that I am the manager of that hearing. And as the manager of that hearing, it's my belief that the best way to get the best hearing is for everyone to understand the ground rules.

00;04;47;01 - 00;05;20;10
Judge Stafford
And oftentimes when we have self represented parties, they show up. Perhaps they watched some oral arguments in the past. Perhaps they haven't. Perhaps this is the first time they've ever been in an appellate court. So it's important for me to make sure that they understand what our procedure is and how we operate. Sometimes we have new attorneys or even older attorneys who've never appeared in the appellate court before.

00;05;20;12 - 00;05;44;25
Judge Stafford
They have questions about the procedure. So it's it's important for them to understand before we start how we operate. I believe we get a much better product if everybody's playing with the same set of rules. And it doesn't take any time for us to answer any questions that we can legally answer. If we can answer those questions.

00;05;44;27 - 00;05;46;08
Judge Stafford
It doesn't hurt anything.

00;05;46;10 - 00;05;50;07
Nick Morgan
Is there a difference in your approach between lawyers and self representing litigants?

00;05;50;07 - 00;06;21;26
Judge Stafford
I'm sure there is. I don't know that it is a, a difference that I, make, purposefully, but I'm assuming that the attorneys know, the rules know the procedure. But if they don't, we're, or any other judge, are very happy to help explain it to them, so that they, they, they can work through the process.

00;06;21;28 - 00;06;31;09
Judge Stafford
I'm not as much surprised as is self represented to let it get and perhaps doesn't know the procedure or doesn't know how we operate.

00;06;31;10 - 00;06;36;22
Nick Morgan
What about your experience as a judge over your career has influenced that approach?

00;06;36;24 - 00;07;10;19
Judge Stafford
I've been, fortunate enough to be a judge at, basically all the different levels in, this state. When I first started, or when I first became licensed as an attorney, I served for five years as a part time city judge. I had General Sessions criminal jurisdiction. So I got to really see the face of the public and the judiciary at that level.

00;07;10;21 - 00;07;37;00
Judge Stafford
I subsequently had the opportunity to serve for juvenile judge, for a year. And then I was a trial court judge for several years before I came to the appellate court. So many times, you see people, come to court and they don't understand what's going on. They understand that they were required to be there. They were perhaps sued or perhaps they were subpoenaed.

00;07;37;02 - 00;07;58;05
Judge Stafford
They don't know what's going on, and they need to know, so they can make good decisions or as good at decisions as they possibly can under those circumstances. So I think the more knowledge that's out there, the better off we are, and again, the better. The best product we get is based on as much knowledge as we can share.

00;07;58;10 - 00;08;21;26
Nick Morgan
One thing I've always found impressive with your approach to anyone standing at the podium in front of you, is that you always seem to take that scariness of being in the position that person is in at a podium, about to argue a usually bad situation in front of a panel of three judges. And you humanize that fear. And oftentimes I think that comforts them enough to present the best argument they can.

00;08;22;03 - 00;08;53;13
Judge Stafford
First of all, I appreciate you saying that you're very kind to say that, more likely than not, at whatever level of the court system that you're at. No one wants to be there. Nobody's in court to tell you I'm having a great day. Things are going my way. There are problems or you wouldn't be there. And to further exacerbate that situation, there problems that the parties could not work out themselves.

00;08;53;13 - 00;09;29;01
Judge Stafford
So they had to perhaps get lawyers involved. They certainly had to get the judicial process involved. So they're here and they're here not because they like it, but because they perhaps need some relief, or they're looking for an end to this litigation. So you need to keep that in mind. One of the things that, I was told many, many years ago as a, new judge and, and that is we are public servants, and we need to keep that in mind.

00;09;29;03 - 00;10;01;00
Judge Stafford
We work for the public. They don't work for us. And sometimes, as a judge, you can get that mixed up a little bit. If you think about it, the way judges are treated, you walk into a courtroom, everybody stands up. Everybody hopefully is respectful of that position. And they should be. But you can get the wrong attitude about that if you're not careful.

00;10;01;03 - 00;10;32;04
Judge Stafford
And the the people who are in front of you, or just as important, in fact, they're more important than we are because they're the reason we're here. We're trying to help them solve a problem. They may not like the way the problem get solved, but we're an essential ingredient in getting all that resolved. When I was a trial judge, I tried many criminal cases.

00;10;32;04 - 00;11;08;28
Judge Stafford
Civil cases with juries. And one of the things that I was taught by more experienced judges is that what we always need to do is respect the jury, because the jury, is the finder of fact in, those type cases. So one of the things that that I always did was when I had a jury, when I walked in the courtroom, everybody stood up.

00;11;09;00 - 00;11;22;27
Judge Stafford
But I also asked everybody to stand up when the jury walked in, because they needed to be accorded the same level of respect that I did, because they were doing the same job that I was supposed to be doing.

00;11;22;28 - 00;11;39;18
Nick Morgan
What would you say to someone that is either a self represented litigant or even a new lawyer that is scared of the outcome of their case, or they're just scared about even standing up there in front of you and don't fully understand or have process the rules of procedure and appellate court.

00;11;39;20 - 00;12;10;13
Judge Stafford
Again, it's a process. This isn't a big mystery. It shouldn't be a big mystery. It is a big mystery to some people. But it shouldn't be a big mystery. It is a very formal dispute resolution process. It has rules, and it has procedures. And I think that it is part of our job to make it as accessible as we can make it.

00;12;10;16 - 00;12;28;27
Judge Stafford
Within the boundaries, the parameters. Sometimes we can do things that make it easier and make it more understandable. Sometimes we can't. When we can, we should. It doesn't take any more effort.

00;12;28;29 - 00;12;41;05
Nick Morgan
We've mentioned a little bit about my role here in the Tennessee court system as of 2020. All appellate court proceedings are live streamed. Has that influenced your approach at all?

00;12;41;07 - 00;13;17;24
Judge Stafford
I know that I'm very conscious of live streaming, and I think live streaming has some positive aspects. For instance, it opens the courts. Anyone who has an internet connection can watch anything going on in the appellate courts in Tennessee. I think that's a positive thing. And I actually am very much surprised at, how many people do watch appellate arguments.

00;13;17;25 - 00;13;51;24
Judge Stafford
I have people who mention it to me on occasion, and frankly, I'm surprised because I don't know what why they do it, but, I'm happy that they do do it. So I think that's a positive thing. I think that it also makes the judges very conscious of the fact that what they say, and what they're doing is being broadcast worldwide, as it's happening.

00;13;51;24 - 00;14;14;06
Judge Stafford
So, I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing. I just know it is a thing. The downsides. I don't know, I don't know that we know yet what the downside is to live streaming, but I would feel very comfortable that there probably are some. They just haven't manifested themselves yet.

00;14;14;08 - 00;14;27;19
Nick Morgan
Judge Stafford I've always had so much respect for you. Watching you for many years show the utmost respect to those before you. Thank you so much for sitting down with me for a few minutes today, and taking some time to explain your approach to humanizing the bench.

00;14;27;20 - 00;14;35;24
Judge Stafford
Thank you, Nick