Appointed Counsel Vol. 16: Non-Capital Claims

On this month's episode of Appointed Counsel, the Caitlin Clark of the Indigent Representation team joins Joe Byrd to discuss criminal court claims. Gene Vestal not only has a unique job at the Administrative Office of the Courts as the first line auditor for criminal claims, but also an interesting background. He and Joe Byrd not only go down memory lane, but discuss what he looks for in criminal claims and steps attorneys can take for a smooth process. 

Transcript

00;00;03;08 - 00;00;42;19
Host
Welcome to Appointed Counsel, a podcast presented by Tennessee Court Talk. For those involved in indigent representation, I'm Joe Byrd, Lead Attorney for the Indigent Services Team of the Tennessee Administrative Office of the Courts. Episode 16 Non-capital Criminal Claims. In this episode, we're going to cover non-capital criminal claims, but over the next couple of podcasts, we're going to talk to different members of the Indigent Services team who review the claims, not just to learn a little more about them, but we're also going to learn about some things that they see in the claims and maybe some ideas, tips, pointers that they might give to attorneys who are putting the claims in.

00;00;42;22 - 00;00;46;10
Host
Today we're here with Gene Vestal. Gene, welcome to the podcast.

00;00;46;14 - 00;00;47;27
Gene Vestal
I appreciate that, Joe.

00;00;48;00 - 00;00;54;26
Host
Gene, you have an interesting background, first of all. Tell us what you do here at the AOC.

00;00;54;28 - 00;01;08;02
Gene Vestal
I am what is known as the first line auditor for those sports fans listening in. I would be considered the Caitlin Clark getting the rebound, assisting in throwing out the pass for the alley oop, fast break.

00;01;08;16 - 00;01;12;13
Host
So you just called yourself the Caitlin Clark of the Indigent Services Team.

00;01;12;16 - 00;01;16;21
Gene Vestal
You know, the shoe fits. You know, I hope I'll be remembered.

00;01;16;24 - 00;01;21;16
Host
All right. All right. Tell us a little more specifically about the kinds of claims that you handle.

00;01;21;19 - 00;01;25;27
Gene Vestal
I do the non-capital, as I said, first line, audit the claims.

00;01;26;02 - 00;01;28;22
Host
And when you say non-capital, you talk about criminal claims.

00;01;28;22 - 00;01;39;18
Gene Vestal
Right. And these are basically I had started out specifically in General Sessions court, but have moved up now to covering all of the courts in the system.

00;01;39;20 - 00;01;51;03
Host
And before we get it a little bit more into job, I think you have a fascinating background. Gene, I want you to tell our listeners a little bit about what you did before you came to the AOC. You've been you've been with the AOC. How long?

00;01;51;05 - 00;02;01;01
Gene Vestal
I am starting my eighth year here. I actually started as a temp and then moved up when there was a position in Indigent Services.

00;02;01;08 - 00;02;04;06
Host
So tell us about your previous life. Your career.

00;02;04;08 - 00;02;19;05
Gene Vestal
I have was in the world of radio for a long time. I actually had my own mobile deejay business, did, wedding receptions and on the air, doing deejay news and sports, play by play.

00;02;19;07 - 00;02;22;04
Host
Yeah. And you're a huge Preds fan. I understand.

00;02;22;05 - 00;02;23;25
Gene Vestal
Exactly.

00;02;23;27 - 00;02;47;10
Host
Gene has always all the merch from, for the predators. So here in Nashville. So, Gene, let's talk about your job. Now, you you said non-capital claims first line. So let just let me play a little context. We always try to tell the attorneys, we try to return claims in a turnaround of 30 days, but once they submit the claim, that's not the beginning of the 30 days.

00;02;47;10 - 00;02;53;03
Host
It doesn't start until the judge approves it and it comes into your queue as a first line auditor. Correct?

00;02;53;03 - 00;02;53;17
Gene Vestal
Correct.

00;02;53;24 - 00;03;09;03
Host
And so a lot of attorneys will ask me, well, why can't Gene just get right to my claim? Why does it have to sit in his queue? For maybe ten days or so before he even looks at it the first time? Can you tell the attorneys why it takes, ten days?

00;03;09;10 - 00;03;21;22
Gene Vestal
Well, we have quite a few to go over. Again, we do try our very best to get to them as much as possible. But again, the the back load is quite heavy, right?

00;03;21;22 - 00;03;47;03
Host
I mean, we try to use a first come, first reviewed basis. So the oldest ones are what you what you try to look at first and try to get those done. But what it helps is if people understand that we only have, really only about four first line auditors and the entire team reviews about 90. In fact, I think last year it was almost 97,000 claims.

00;03;47;05 - 00;03;52;08
Host
So that means you all are trying to get done about 250 claims a week, I think. Isn't that.

00;03;52;08 - 00;03;53;11
Gene Vestal
Right? Yes.

00;03;53;13 - 00;04;06;28
Host
So that's that's pretty that's a pretty formidable task for anybody to reach those targets. But it's necessary just in order for us to hit the 30 day turnaround. But now sometimes that can get slowed down if you have to return a claim. Right?

00;04;06;28 - 00;04;07;23
Gene Vestal
Right.

00;04;07;25 - 00;04;24;02
Host
So okay, you're taking the first ones. I submit my claim. You're taking the first claims. Maybe there is. I don't know how many hundreds of claims before me, but you finally get to me. What would be some of the mistakes? Some of the things that you have to return claims for.

00;04;24;04 - 00;04;42;23
Gene Vestal
The first one that comes to mind would be the case numbers. That's what normally I go to. First of all, we have to match up the properties tab number with the number that's on the appointment order. And mainly that is what I'm returning the the most for I would say.

00;04;42;25 - 00;05;09;13
Host
Yeah. Let me give a little insight on that because some attorneys might say why do y'all care, right. If your property's tab case number matches well, we get audited by the comptroller's office. And the comptroller's office is responsible for making sure that we are looking at all of the moneys that go out and that the claims are complying with rule 13 and, that we're properly reviewing and properly paying the claims.

00;05;09;19 - 00;05;20;19
Host
So if we don't match up those case numbers on the appointment orders with what the claim is it, it would be a potential fraudulent situation. So those numbers have to be exact, right.

00;05;20;24 - 00;05;21;12
Gene Vestal
Exactly.

00;05;21;12 - 00;05;33;21
Host
And I'm sure that's frustrating to the attorney to say, look, I just got one number off. So when you return it, you're basically doing your what, asking them to just fix it either on the properties tab or fix it in the appointment order.

00;05;33;21 - 00;05;44;13
Gene Vestal
Basically on the appointment order, usually they're very good about returning that. And as you say, it's just such a minor note that once it's done, we get it out very quickly.

00;05;44;16 - 00;05;49;16
Host
But at the same time, if we got, audit finding that we were letting those go.

00;05;49;19 - 00;05;50;02
Gene Vestal
Oh yes.

00;05;50;08 - 00;06;02;19
Host
It becomes problematic for the AOC. So and it becomes problematic for everybody, you know, in the long run. So we we do that because of that. And what what's another reason you see claims getting returned, from your standpoint.

00;06;02;22 - 00;06;15;13
Gene Vestal
Just missing information sometimes, the attorney names are included in there. We definitely need those, of course. And the signature of the judges, which is extremely important.

00;06;15;14 - 00;06;41;08
Host
Yeah. So when you're looking at an appointment order, it's not just the case number you're looking at. You're looking at the judge's signature has to be on there. Now the dates I know. Remember we went to the Davidson County General Sessions court and the trial court. And you remember that busy day? And I was trying to explain to the team how in the practice, you sometimes will just get appointed while you're standing in court, minding your own business and the appointment order sometime an afterthought.

00;06;41;11 - 00;06;54;21
Host
So we do want, we prefer the the appointment order to be, not pro tunc. But if it's not for the date, we don't we don't we don't have to be too tough on it. As long as the court saying that this attorney was appointed to this case.

00;06;54;22 - 00;06;55;22
Gene Vestal
Right, right.

00;06;55;25 - 00;07;06;19
Host
So suppose, I wasn't originally appointed to a case, but another attorney withdrew or was granted leave or permission to withdraw. What do I use for my appointment order, then?

00;07;06;21 - 00;07;10;01
Gene Vestal
That is when an order of substitution would be issued.

00;07;10;08 - 00;07;21;22
Host
If for some reason the court didn't get that order substitution, I can always go back and get the court to to go ahead and do the order substitution and enter it back to the date when the substitution occurred.

00;07;21;25 - 00;07;22;23
Gene Vestal
Exactly. Yeah.

00;07;22;24 - 00;07;46;22
Host
Although that's not going to happen very often because most attorneys, if they're wise attorneys, will want to make sure their name is off of a case when they withdraw. So I'm sure you don't see that too often. You said, information. It has to. I'm sure information has to do with more than than the appointment orders. And I want to get to that, you know, some other information you see that's missing on claims.

00;07;46;24 - 00;08;09;23
Host
But one thing that I find when you all. Well, this this might help attorneys to understand. Sometimes when you all see a problem in a claim, you'll kick it up to the second review Auditor. Right, right. And then sometimes they'll kick it up to me to review it. And I try to explain to attorneys that, you know, for us, we're trying to put these cases together from the mosaic of the documents we have and their entries in the claims.

00;08;09;28 - 00;08;34;19
Host
It's hard for us to see. One of the things that kind of from my perspective, when you guys have questions and kick them up to me, is that when the attorneys don't put in the disposition of the case on the properties page how it ended? So whether withdrawal or a plea was entered or a jury trial, do you send claims back when that's not in there?

00;08;34;19 - 00;08;35;14
Host
I don't think you do.

00;08;35;14 - 00;08;49;02
Gene Vestal
Uhh no, there are times the second auditor may catch that and we go back if there's not, like the stamped date and time that that action took place.

00;08;49;05 - 00;09;11;26
Host
You know, Gene, another thing I noticed on the properties tab is, is that, there is disposition, date slash last activity. And some attorneys, particularly within the criminal claims, they get confused when they see last activity. They think they can put last activity in as the disposition date. And that's not the disposition date for a criminal case, right?

00;09;11;26 - 00;09;12;11
Gene Vestal
Correct.

00;09;12;11 - 00;09;14;07
Host
Yes. What is the disposition date.

00;09;14;08 - 00;09;18;22
Gene Vestal
That would be looked at as the file date that's stamped on the.

00;09;18;28 - 00;09;31;23
Host
Judgment. Judgment. So, I know some attorneys, they may not always go get the judgment, but it's simple to do. Go to the clerk's office, get it, show it to us. But now we don't always ask for that. That judgment. Do we.

00;09;31;23 - 00;09;32;17
Gene Vestal
No.

00;09;32;20 - 00;09;52;08
Host
I mean, we should be able to tell if they put that. If they put the disposition, you know, tried by jury, plea bound over whatever the case may be on the properties tab. And then we can put it together from their activities. We generally won't ask for that final judgment. Can you think of a time when you do ask for the final judgment?

00;09;52;14 - 00;09;56;13
Gene Vestal
If the date is close to the final date.

00;09;56;13 - 00;10;21;10
Host
Yeah, right. Close to the 180th, right. Some attorneys haven't read closely through the newsletter and aren't aware of the policy that if that 180th day runs on a weekend or holiday, we bump it to the next business day. It's a big pain in the neck for you guys because a cap doesn't automatically calculate that. So whenever you see one that hits on 180th day, you have to pull your calendar out, right?

00;10;21;12 - 00;10;22;16
Gene Vestal
Exactly. Yes.

00;10;22;17 - 00;10;33;15
Host
And as a general rule, you know, I mean, you all just you all don't worry about the final judgment until you start getting into that 160, 170 days. Then we have to have proof. Right?

00;10;33;20 - 00;10;39;16
Gene Vestal
Exactly. So and that's why we really work at getting them done as quickly as possible.

00;10;39;18 - 00;10;39;27
Host
Yeah.

00;10;40;03 - 00;10;41;09
Gene Vestal
30 day turnover.

00;10;41;11 - 00;10;59;23
Host
You know I it's kind of strange to me that if you didn't get paid on a case till it was resolved and then to wait another almost six months to get paid, I never did that. You know, usually it was in the first 30 days after I get paid or many times I never even filed a claim because it just wasn't worth the hassle.

00;10;59;29 - 00;11;05;15
Host
Doing it. Back in the days when I was doing those kind of claims. Any other reasons you can think of why you return claims.

00;11;05;17 - 00;11;19;04
Gene Vestal
Specifically in the notes? If we know automatically, I think for mileage we do need specifics on where the travel took place, where they come from and where they go to, and vice versa.

00;11;19;08 - 00;11;32;06
Host
I think the rule is, is that they have to give us the point of departure and the point of destination, right? Sometimes they'll put round trip. We don't. Do you return them if if they give you the round trip all in one line?

00;11;32;08 - 00;11;35;12
Gene Vestal
If it's done, one line that can pass.

00;11;35;12 - 00;11;45;01
Host
Okay. Right. So now let me let me just ask you this so that the attorneys remember this is it just mileage you're talking about. But what about travel time. Do they get travel time too.

00;11;45;05 - 00;11;50;04
Gene Vestal
The travel time is being looked at. It is in there is included.

00;11;50;07 - 00;11;55;20
Host
It's on the it's on the it's on the time entry section. Mileage is in the section below it.

00;11;55;21 - 00;11;56;21
Gene Vestal
Right.

00;11;56;24 - 00;12;20;15
Host
And then and then our policy that we've developed is that we will pay reimburse mileage, whether it's in county or out of county, as long as it's within ten miles round trip. Right. So that should cover most everybody's travel. If it's less than five miles, it's minimis, you know. Right. If it's if you're going five miles, put your mileage in at $0.70 a mile, right?

00;12;20;16 - 00;12;37;02
Host
Right. I think so. And then I'm sure the IRS will decide, at the end of the year, close to the first year, like they did to us this last year, waited till the last week of December to tell us they were going to raise the rate. So. All right, anything else Gene that you see in some of the claims that you handle?

00;12;37;03 - 00;12;44;01
Gene Vestal
That's basically the main articles that we look for. Nothing else jumps out specifically right now.

00;12;44;05 - 00;13;00;16
Host
Some attorneys still redact the orders when they put them right. It probably doesn't impact you as much as it does on the child welfare cases. Because on the child welfare cases, they had to put the child's birth date, the child's name. They would have to redact, the birth dates out. They don't have to redact.

00;13;00;21 - 00;13;12;01
Gene Vestal
They do not. It's again, it goes through much quicker now compared to before that. We are definitely, being able to help by such changes. Yeah.

00;13;12;01 - 00;13;34;23
Host
I think our return rate is definitely decreased because that was the primary reason we were returning was redaction. Now they still do need to redact when it comes to, personal identification information that might relate to invoices, receipts, those kinds of things. But the orders stay in-house with us and confidential. So if it's on the order, don't worry about it.

00;13;34;23 - 00;13;56;04
Host
If it's in another document, look it over. Make sure your EIN number, social security numbers, those kinds of things are redacted, but otherwise for the vast majority of claims, that doesn't even apply so well, Gene, if you were going to give a couple of tips, to attorneys outside of the things that we've mentioned, or maybe you would even mention it, to them, I wonder what that would be.

00;13;56;04 - 00;14;20;12
Host
Let me just give you a context of most attorneys. Most attorneys go to law school because they like practicing law. They like the law. They like the, especially trial attorneys, like the, you know, whether it's examination, cross-examination, putting evidence into the record and, you know, they enjoy that. A lot of us enjoy legal research and writing what we don't like.

00;14;20;12 - 00;14;43;10
Host
Gene, let me just tell you what we don't like is we don't like, the business of law. A lot of us, it's practice management. So sometimes things like taking time out of our schedules to enter our time, and to put all this information in a cap. It really is not what we enjoy, okay? It's it's a necessary evil in the practice of law, I'm sure.

00;14;43;10 - 00;14;52;01
Host
So knowing that that's who you're talking to, who you're here is, are any bits of advice that you would give, to attorneys as it relates to the claims that you handle?

00;14;52;04 - 00;15;13;12
Gene Vestal
I think just being specific in areas you might think need to be specific, as I said, mileage wise, or if there may be a question that comes up on when you finish a case that there may be some question. Again, just spell it out so we can go exactly what happened.

00;15;13;14 - 00;15;37;20
Host
Yeah, I think that's great advice, especially in those activities. If they give us a little more information, like, you know, the the jury ended in deadlock, right. So it's a mistrial or if they'll give us some information about, attorney withdrew instead of just putting hearing most attorneys on most of the trials. Jury trials. They'll put in day one, jury trial, day two, jury trial.

00;15;37;20 - 00;16;03;28
Host
But sometimes, in general sessions bound over how it ended. Tell us in the activities line if they can describe it, particularly if there's something that it's going to look a little, a little odd on our end and they can help us understand it, their explanation sometimes can really keep us from having to return the claim. Now, when you return a claim and it gets pushed back, you still try to get those done as quickly as you can.

00;16;03;28 - 00;16;06;19
Host
When they come back, they don't just fall to the bottom of the queue, right?

00;16;06;19 - 00;16;14;13
Gene Vestal
Exactly. As I said, the, most attorneys are very, very good about bringing them back. As soon as possible.

00;16;14;17 - 00;16;32;28
Host
But that brings us back to the number one thing that I think attorneys have to do. When a cap was created, it did not it was not created to generate an email saying, hey, you've got a return claim, right? So the attorneys have to go into a cap and they should really do it every other day, in my opinion.

00;16;33;05 - 00;16;45;01
Host
And look under the return claim tab to make sure that we have it. Return to claim as quickly as they can, return it back to you fixing it. Then the quicker you can get it in the que and maybe still keep it within 30 days.

00;16;45;01 - 00;16;45;25
Gene Vestal
Definitely.

00;16;45;28 - 00;17;01;19
Host
Yeah. Well, Gene, I really appreciate you taking the time. I should have you spend some discs for us here today. Gene is, somebody who's done just a great job, for us here and always pulling his load. And we appreciate you being here on the podcast today. Thanks for all your work.

00;17;01;19 - 00;17;07;25
Gene Vestal
My pleasure. Always being able to get back in the business somehow is a treat.

00;17;07;27 - 00;17;14;28
Host
Great. Thanks, Gene. For more information, check out the Indegent Representation web page at tncourts.gov.