Ep. 49 The Trial of the Century: 100 Years After Scopes

One hundred years ago, the small town of Dayton, Tennessee became the epicenter of the national debate over evolution and creationism. In the sweltering summer heat of 1925, the Scopes Monkey Trial became one of the most sensational cases of the twentieth century as famed defense attorney Clarence Darrow faced off against three-time presidential candidate William Jennings Bryan.

Visit www.rheaheritage.com for more information about the 100th Year Scopes Trial Festival.

Transcript

00;00;00;03 - 00;00;02;05
Rick Dye
When we look at the core topics.

00;00;02;07 - 00;00;07;23
Tom Davis
We're still talking about it today, 100 years later. Not many misdemeanor cases can say that.

00;00;09;03 - 00;00;38;03
Co-Host
100 years ago, one of the most famous and controversial cases in American history was heard inside a small courthouse in Dayton, Tennessee. The State of Tennessee versus John Thomas Scopes became known as the Scopes Monkey Trial, and put the debate over teaching evolution in schools. On the front pages of newspapers across the country, the man in the middle of it all, 24 year old John Scopes, taught in the public high school in Dayton and included evolution in his curriculum.

00;00;38;05 - 00;01;02;25
Co-Host
He agreed to be the focus of the test case, challenging the newly passed Tennessee state law against teaching evolution, or any other theory denying the biblical account of creation. The case became known as The Trial of the Century, and was attended by hundreds of reporters and others who crowded the courthouse in the sweltering July heat. Joining us to discuss this famous case are Rick Dye and Tom Davis.

00;01;02;28 - 00;01;09;14
Co-Host
You might say these men are the heart and soul of the Rhea Heritage Preservation Foundation. Welcome, gentlemen.

00;01;09;17 - 00;01;10;08
Rick Dye
Thank you.

00;01;10;11 - 00;01;25;26
Co-Host
I'm Samantha Fisher, Communications Director for the Tennessee Supreme Court and the Administrative Office of the Courts. And I'm excited to co-host this episode with my colleague, Producer Jordan Alcorn, who has done a great job researching this case. And will be kicking off the interview. Jordan.

00;01;25;28 - 00;01;34;00
Host
Thank you. Sam. Rick. Tom. Thank you guys. What are you guys doing for the 100th year anniversary of the Scopes trial?

00;01;34;02 - 00;01;58;28
Tom Davis
The keystone is the, reenactment on July 11th and 12th, 18th and 19th. We'll have performances of the play Destiny in Dayton, which is an adaptation of the trial transcript in the courtroom where the trial was held. So when you come into the courtroom, see the play, you are hearing words that were spoken in that room 100 years ago.

00;01;58;29 - 00;02;13;16
Rick Dye
It gives an audience the experience of, as Tom said, you're in the actual courtroom. Courtroom has been preserved. You're sitting in the actual chairs. And in this case, you're hearing the actual words of William Jennings Bryan and Clarence Darrow.

00;02;13;17 - 00;02;19;25
Host
And can you speak also to the economic impact that the yearly Scopes Festival has on the community there?

00;02;20;00 - 00;02;47;28
Rick Dye
The two actual weekends that we produce, the play you're looking at, somewhere between 1500 and 2000 people, either come to the production or just visit Dayton to see the courthouse and to to get a feeling of what Dayton was like in 1925, because a lot of the buildings and businesses and we have a walking tour where you can see the historic places, that have been saved, over the years.

00;02;47;28 - 00;02;57;08
Rick Dye
And it does give you a sense of what it was like to walk around a small town. That was the focus of the universe for 11 days.

00;02;57;11 - 00;03;21;26
Tom Davis
And we we had last year, I think it was folk from 90 states. And what was it, 24, 30 communities in Tennessee outside of Wright County come. So it it makes a an impact in that way. They eat. They buy gas, shop. So people people notice.

00;03;21;28 - 00;03;47;22
Rick Dye
Now economic impact. The promoters of the trial in 1925 were looking for an economic impact. Dayton was primarily a agrarian community. In fact, our biggest event each year, a strawberry festival, because for many years, that was one of the biggest crops of the area. The only industry that existed 100 years ago was the Dayton

00;03;47;25 - 00;03;49;01
Rick Dye
Coal and Iron Company.

00;03;49;05 - 00;03;58;25
Host
What is one of the big takeaways are just overall general reactions that you hear from the public after they watch the scopes play reenactment.

00;03;58;28 - 00;04;22;21
Rick Dye
But the number one takeaway lesson that I think people get is that for those eight days, these people walked into that courtroom at 9:00. They chose their respective side. And until 4:00, they argue with all the passion they could muster. But at 4:00 each day, that stopped. Dayton’s not that big. There weren't that many places to go have dinner.

00;04;22;24 - 00;04;51;17
Rick Dye
There weren't that many hotels to stay in. These people had to walk up and down the street together. At 4:00 it all stopped. They got along, they had civil conversation. They broke bread together. They got to know one another and have conversation about issues outside of what was argued in a courtroom. And here we said, 100 years later, we're still having many of the core arguments, and we still have just as much passion in those arguments.

00;04;51;19 - 00;04;55;14
Rick Dye
We just can't seem to find 4:00 and take a pause.

00;04;55;16 - 00;05;13;14
Co-Host
Tom, I wanted to jump in with a question. I thought what you said about the civil discourse, you know, following the day's arguments was so interesting. And you we don't have we didn't have video cameras at the time to record the arguments. So much of the perception of the trial has been told through authors and books and things like that.

00;05;13;16 - 00;05;20;08
Co-Host
I'd be interested in hearing from from both of you about this. What do you think over time, has become the biggest misconception about the trial?

00;05;20;11 - 00;05;43;22
Tom Davis
I think that both sides hated each other, that this was a duel to the death, and and they meant it. But like Rick said, they fought like that in the courtroom. But Ben McKenzie, one of the prosecuting attorneys, and Clarence Darrow, let's just say, became buddies.

00;05;43;22 - 00;06;21;04
Rick Dye
They met during the trial for the first time, first time they'd ever met. And they remained friends for the rest of their life, with the Darrow’s visiting. Excuse me, with the Mckenzies visiting the Darrow's in Chicago. And Darrow even returned to Dayton to do a to fish the hawasee refuge with the McKenzie. They became very close friends. In fact, it's in some lore it said that, you know, Darrow spent evenings drinking bootleg liquor with members of the prosecution, and, he did, he he would join McKenzie each evening in his office, where McKenzie would have a bottle of gin driven in by, taxi from Chattanooga.

00;06;21;06 - 00;06;45;04
Rick Dye
It was, it was not moonshine. It was the good stuff, but it was prohibition. So everything was bootleg. But yes, I think, in in Darrow's autobiography, he comments how he. And, by the time Darrow got to town, there was no hotel lanes left. So he stayed in the home of, Luke Morgan, one of the bankers in town.

00;06;45;07 - 00;07;22;04
Rick Dye
The Morgan family had a place out on the mountain, where the temperatures were a little cooler. They went there and allowed, Darrow and his wife to stay in their home on Second Avenue. In his autobiography, he commented how he and his wife returned one Sunday evening, knowing that there was no chance of having any ice for the icebox, the chance of finding any, cream or butter, or anything for breakfast were going to be slammed to not only to get to the house, open the icebox, and realize that the neighbors up and down the street had gotten a big slab of ice, some fresh churned butter, some cream, and as

00;07;22;04 - 00;07;30;11
Rick Dye
he said, even a melon for breakfast, that he and his wife for the first time. It tasted true southern hospitality, and they would never forget it.

00;07;30;14 - 00;07;39;02
Host
So, Rick, this is a question for you. So when you are playing Darrow, what do you do just to get into character there?

00;07;39;04 - 00;08;04;17
Rick Dye
I walk up by myself for a little while before we start. I think I think Darrow is a fascinating character, that he could spend these arguments with no notes. I, I have put a lot of effort into studying his mannerisms, as best I can find. From what, little video there is. And, still pictures.

00;08;04;20 - 00;08;22;29
Rick Dye
I do think Darrow is key to making the event. What it was the, it's it's interesting, as you can tell, the mix in the audience, there's a little sway in which side the audience favors. So sometimes I get more cheers, and sometimes I get more jeers.

00;08;23;02 - 00;08;42;23
Host
So the Scopes trial became the first American trial to have live updates. Going out over the radio media landscape has changed dramatically since then, but can we compare the hysteria that surrounded the Scopes trial at that time? Similar to any trial coverage that we've seen more recently?

00;08;42;25 - 00;09;05;16
Rick Dye
Well, there were more than 100 reporters that descended on Dayton to cover the trial, led by H.L. Mencken. Of course, he's the one who coined the Monkey Trial. Said if the South is the Bible Belt, Dayton must surely be the buckle. He painted a very harsh image. He despised Bryan. He was very mean towards Bryan, and he was very mean towards, Dayton in general.

00;09;05;19 - 00;09;32;06
Rick Dye
And that led most of the media coverage. It was the first try to be broadcast by a broadcast medium. Radio was only five years old. The first paid commercial broadcast was KDKA, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, which is still on the air, but they were paid, to broadcast the 1920 presidential election returns. WGN which was owned by the Chicago Tribune.

00;09;32;09 - 00;09;58;03
Rick Dye
The call letters world's greatest newspapers, where they get their call letters, the Tribune, it only owned WGN about two, two and a half years. And it, it is it's one of those little covered up things. But it's interesting to note that they had actually had great difficulty getting on the air the first day, because it was the first time they had four microphones in the same room.

00;09;58;06 - 00;10;26;18
Rick Dye
And so they had some feedback issues and stuff that they were not aware of. So it was a technical challenge. They paid, paid $1,000 a day to rent the AT&T lines from Dayton to Chicago to be on the broadcast trial. It also created the first airstrip landing strip, in Dayton they plowed down a section of a cornfield on what is today about 11th Avenue so that they could fly newsreels in and out.

00;10;26;21 - 00;10;40;09
Rick Dye
So you not only had the radio, broadcasting, the trial daily, but you had the newsreels going out to the movie theaters all over the country at the center. So it was a full media circus frenzy.

00;10;40;14 - 00;11;06;14
Tom Davis
They figured what 65 telegraphers said about 200,000 words a day during the trial. Had to install additional telegraph lines for the community for them to handle this. So it it. Brian has said there have been more words said from Dayton about this trial than any other event in American history. That's kind of how big it was.

00;11;06;17 - 00;11;16;06
Host
How has the portrayal of the Scopes Trial in popular culture, like the movie Inherit the Wind that was that influenced the public's understanding of what actually happened?

00;11;16;07 - 00;11;51;16
Rick Dye
It is the antithesis of what actually happened. It's almost that extreme. Again, people need to understand Lawrence N. Lee when they wrote Inherit the Wind, in 1955, they were after Senator Joe McCarthy. Their entire focus was McCarthy and his extremism and his red listing. Ironically, believe it or not, when the movie came along, five years later, it actually debuted right here in Dayton, Tennessee.

00;11;51;19 - 00;12;17;29
Rick Dye
United Artists contact the leaders said, we're making a movie about the trial, and it's clear from all the communication. No one asked what movie? So yes, the community got together, went and found John Scopes living quietly in Louisiana, brought him back to town, had a huge parade, gave him a key to the city, and then went down to the movie theater and watched, Inherit the Wind.

00;12;18;01 - 00;12;19;28
Rick Dye
And they were not happy.

00;12;20;04 - 00;12;29;03
Co-Host
Rick, I wanted to ask you about William Jennings Bryan because he did not live long after the trial. What impact do you think that had on the trial's legacy?

00;12;29;06 - 00;12;51;06
Rick Dye
Well, it certainly plays into the Inherit the Wind version, that's for sure. The sad part is, is it causes him to be depicted as being crushed by the trial when, again, it was just the opposite. He was jubilant. He thought he had won a great victory, was parading around giving speeches. But it but he was his own demise.

00;12;51;08 - 00;13;21;12
Rick Dye
He was a full blown diabetic. We didn't have insulin back then. We didn't understand the diet and so forth. And, there's actually two stories there. According to his cook, he spoke for the last time that day at the Methodist church, delivered the services that Sunday, they went to the Rogers home where they were staying. It said, according to his cook, he consumed two entire fried chickens and, lay down quietly on the to sleep and and didn't wake.

00;13;21;13 - 00;13;42;07
Rick Dye
The other story is Tom Stuart, who was the District Attorney, Lead, Prosecutor in the case in Mr. Bryan's travels and speaking the day before, I guess it was. Yeah. That Saturday before coming back, they stopped at the Stuart home in Winchester, and Mrs. Stuart threw a quick gathering, the neighbors and so forth, you know, meal together.

00;13;42;07 - 00;14;09;17
Rick Dye
And, Bryan dearly loved tomatoes, so I guess they were two, platters of sliced tomatoes. And, he loved them smothered in salt. So, according to, Chancellor Stuart, the grandson of Tom Stuart, his grandmother believed she contributed to Mr. Bryan's, demise by eating a platter after midnight, eating all of those tomatoes.

00;14;09;20 - 00;14;24;05
Tom Davis
But he was very confident to this was both the, you might say, the culmination of his life's work, but it was a battle that he had won that needed to be continued. And he was willing to do that. He was ready to do that.

00;14;24;12 - 00;14;55;22
Rick Dye
And one of the things that's always fascinating, to the attorneys and legal minds that often is that Darrow's great stunt of actually calling Bryan to the stand always fascinated people from the legal arena. And it was unprecedented. Unprecedented. As I said, Darrow, spent the entire weekend rehearsing that examination, prepping for that day. When Bryan agreed to take a stand, he expected, Darrow to quiz him on evolution.

00;14;55;24 - 00;15;28;19
Rick Dye
Not on the Bible. So the whole thing set a scene. And as I said, Darrow went after the unanswerable questions. Well, if God punished the serpent by making him crawl up on his belly, how did he move before that? Did he stand up on his tail? So it you know, those are questions that are easy to pick apart in, in in a public arena and understand that the day that, Darrow examined Bryan, that was the day because of the high temperatures, as you mentioned, the judge moved court outside.

00;15;28;21 - 00;15;53;11
Rick Dye
So there were probably 3000 people on that courthouse lawn during that 2 or 3 hour examination. How all these people came together and even Scope’s himself, he had a ridge at school had ended on May 1st. He had intended to leave town to go visit family in Paducah, Kentucky, but he stayed in town hoping to meet a young lady that he was interested in.

00;15;53;14 - 00;16;18;21
Rick Dye
And that's the only reason he was in town. On Monday the fourth when the newspaper ad came out. So how's all that timing and everything come together? And and then again, the regular biology teacher, he certainly was not willing to take on the subject. It was only after some discussion that they realized that Scopes had substituted, and he might be more a willing candidate.

00;16;18;24 - 00;16;25;10
Rick Dye
As Scope’s said himself, he said, well, I'm certainly willing to stand for the case if you can prove I taught it.

00;16;25;12 - 00;16;34;08
Co-Host
Are people fascinated by that when they when they attend the reenactment, that so much of this was set up ahead of time to test the law?

00;16;34;08 - 00;17;25;05
Tom Davis
Absolutely. Oh, yeah, that that's part of the fun for us is to have, like I said earlier, like people I had no idea. After the play, the cast will gather behind the bar and people will come up and talk and ask question after question, how did this happen or where did this come from? And it it's encouraging to us to have the cast interested enough to do some research on their own so they can answer in the playbill that we send now a week or two before the show, we address many of these, questions for people so they, they realize, well, like, Robinson, FE Robinson's daughter told me one time this

00;17;25;05 - 00;17;50;10
Tom Davis
was a serious trial, my father really wanted to know whether the law was valid, but he never missed a chance to boost his community or his business. So she did. She didn’t like to call it a publicity stunt, but he didn't miss a chance. So all these things, it's the stories of real people doing real things that really matter.

00;17;50;12 - 00;18;20;08
Tom Davis
They get people excited. And I think coming into the same courtroom, sitting in the same seats, listening to the same words as one of our former Bryan’s used to say, if you're really quiet, you can almost hear the hear the walls echoing those words. From 1925. That makes history come alive. And I think that's what makes what we do so significant, because it it is real.

00;18;20;11 - 00;18;46;06
Rick Dye
You get into the little stories after, as Tom said, the audience will usually linger around, they'll have questions and they're interested in the minutia. I mentioned that, Brian loved tomatoes. He also loved radishes. And so when what it said when walking around town, people would offer him because it can and it, rural, agrarian based community, everybody had a little, garden.

00;18;46;07 - 00;19;12;14
Rick Dye
They probably had a chicken or two and they had a cow or a goat. And so as he would walk around, they would give him, tomatoes and radishes and it said he would carry salt in one pocket and pepper in the other pocket so that he could flavor, the items his people gave him, too. I mentioned that, McKenzie and, Darrow, became friends and would go across the street each evening to McKenzie's office, to have a drink of gin.

00;19;12;17 - 00;19;33;29
Rick Dye
And they argued in the courtroom where Darrow challenged McKenzie. It said, so you believe a man is made in the image of God? When you see a man, you're seeing God. And and he goaded McKenzie to the point, and McKenzie turned to him, said, well, I realize it was difficult on our maker to choose to make some so profusely ugly.

00;19;34;01 - 00;19;37;23
Tom Davis
But yet that same day they went across the street and had a drink.

00;19;37;25 - 00;19;51;18
Co-Host
Well, gentlemen, I so enjoyed some of the nuances and particulars and interesting details that you have, brought to this discussion. It's, it's clear why this still fascinates people 100 years later. We just have one last question for you.

00;19;51;20 - 00;20;00;24
Host
In summary, what do both of you say is the lasting legacy of the Scopes Trial, and what would you say is its relevancy for us today?

00;20;01;00 - 00;20;26;22
Rick Dye
The lasting legacy is that we can have full, open debate, true debate, not debate that ends in name calling, but discussion, and that we can end that discussion and say we will have to agree to disagree, but we will still respect you and your view, and we will ask you to respect us and our view.

00;20;26;24 - 00;20;54;22
Tom Davis
That's so critical. And I think another part of it is so often small town. You know, nothing ever happens here. I've got to get away from here to make something of myself. But I think if you look at the scopes trial, particularly if you look at other events in history, big things can and do happen in the small towns, in small places.

00;20;54;24 - 00;21;10;02
Tom Davis
And I think it behooves us to live in some of those places, to remember that we may be small, but we can make a difference if we put our minds to it and work toward a common goal.

00;21;10;05 - 00;21;39;04
Rick Dye
And here again, here is a case. Nobody was murdered. Nobody was lynched. Nothing was burned. Nothing was destroyed or damaged. And again, this was a misdemeanor charge, and that it can that it can draw that much attention. It is fascinating in itself, a and again, when we look at the core topics.

00;21;39;07 - 00;21;46;17
Tom Davis
We're still talking about it today, 100 years later. Not many misdemeanor cases can set that gentleman.

00;21;46;17 - 00;21;53;06
Co-Host
One last question. If folks, you know, listening to this interview are intrigued and want to learn more, where should they go to learn more?

00;21;53;08 - 00;22;18;09
Rick Dye
The best location right now, for the centennial celebration is scopes 100.com, extensive website. Giving you all the information about everything we have leading up. And we've even learned a couple of things that might go on after July this year. So we intend to make the most out of the 100th anniversary of the world's most famous court trial.

00;22;18;11 - 00;22;22;15
Co-Host
Rick Dye. Tom Davis, thank you so much for coming on Tennessee Court Talk.

00;22;22;18 - 00;22;23;15
Tom Davis
Thank you for having us.