Season 6, Episode One - Crossing Boundaries: How Liminal Moments Reshape Identity And Belonging

Join Dr Lisa Cherry for Episode One in this 6-Part series on liminality. Lisa is in conversation with Professor Bjørn Thomassen, Professor in Global Political Sociology at Roskilde University, to unpack liminality. They explore the in‑between phase after an old identity collapses and before a new one takes hold and why that space is powerful, precarious and everywhere in modern life. Starting from rites of passage, we look at what happens when there’s no recognised guide to carry us through and how that vacuum can invite both care and manipulation.

Together, we map the difference between chosen and forced transitions, the craft of “ceremony masters” in today’s systems,  belonging and home, showing how poorly designed services can trap people in extended liminal states. 

Connect with Bjorn on LinkedIn here. 

If this conversation gave you language for your work or your life, share it with a colleague, leave a review, and subscribe so you don't miss the next episodes in the Liminality series.

References mentioned:

Horvath, A., & Szakolczai, A. (2019). The political sociology and anthropology of evil: Tricksterology (1st ed.). Routledge.

Szakolczai, A., & Thomassen, B. (2019). From anthropology to social theory: Rethinking the social sciences. Cambridge University Press.

Thomassen, B. (2014). Liminality and the modern: Living through the in‑between. Routledge.

Turner, V. (1969). Liminality and communitas. In The ritual process: Structure and anti-structure (pp. 94–113). Aldine Publishing

Van Gennep, A. (1960). The rites of passage (M. B. Vizedom & G. L. Caffee, Trans.; S. T. Kimball, Intro.). The University of Chicago Press. (Original work published 1909) 

Transcript

Welcome And Series Framing

SPEAKER_00 0:04

This is the Trauma Resonance Resilience Podcast. And this is for you if you are interested in compassion, connection, and relationships and how we can all work together creating services that do not add to harm but rather seek to support recovery from it. I'm your host, Lisa Cherry, and this is your time to sit back and listen in on conversations that make a difference.

Defining Liminality

SPEAKER_01 0:30

Welcome to the Liminality series, where we're exploring the theory of liminality alongside lots of different themes and concepts. But this is the first episode in this series. And it's a really important one because we're going to be introducing liminality. We're going to be considering the roots of liminality, but also the usage. And my guest is perfect to do this. Bjorn Thomason is a professor in global political sociology at Ross Gilda University. He's the author of the book Liminality and the Modern and has written papers on introduction, liminality, and the search for boundaries and revisiting liminality, the danger of empty spaces. Hello, Bjorn.

SPEAKER_02 1:21

Hello. Hello there.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

It's so good to have you here. And I want to say to anyone who's listening that we've never met before. I wrote to you because you are the author of the book and the papers, and you very kindly said that you would love to do nothing more than be on this podcast and talk about liminality. So a big thank you.

SPEAKER_03 1:43

Thank you. Thank you for inviting me. I'm looking forward to it.

SPEAKER_01 1:47

Well, I think the first question that I have to ask you as someone who has an academic background in thinking about liminality is how would you describe liminality to someone who has never come across the word before?

SPEAKER_03 2:04

I think I would start at the individual level and say that it's when you find yourself in an unprecedented situation. Something has happened that uh takes you away from your previous identity, your previous status. You are no longer who you you used to be, and you're in a kind of in-between situation. Uh you have abandoned something, but you have not yet uh reached uh a phase of um reintegration of a new identity. It's an in-between situation, in-between experience. And of course, that that can take very uh different uh directions, but it's it's uh in that sense uh a universal uh human experience. Not that we experience it all the time, but all human beings go through uh liminal moments in their life. So um in that sense, it's also important to recall that it it comes from uh the religious vocabulary of a passage, like uh uh rite of passage, that it's something you go through. Um you are you are moving through something to arrive somewhere else. So it's a passage experience, uh and therefore also has to do with uh crossing a boundary into an own land. And in fact, I would also start by saying that it comes from the Latin word of elemus, which means boundary. So it's a boundary crossing, and it's an abandonment of something that you were, a status or an identity, uh, and it's uh a morph into uncertain territories.

SPEAKER_01 3:52

That's so beautifully put. And I guess what I was thinking about was as a universal human experiences, there are going to be liminal spaces that we might choose to go into, but then of course, liminal spaces that we don't choose to go into. And how does that impact the outcome, I wonder?

Chosen Vs Forced Transitions

SPEAKER_03 4:11

Absolutely. Uh absolutely. Um it it it it these experiences and these situations can be prompted by external uh circumstance. Um if if you if you take it to the macro level, so not just individual experience, but uh an entire society, a group of human beings. If you are suddenly lived through an earthquake uh and the world around you disappears, you are plunged into liminality and certainly not having chosen it. Um the COVID period uh in many ways was was a liminal experience. Previous uh ways and types of behavior and work routines, daily routines were were suddenly uh questioned, and and people had to reinvent new rhythms. So so very often, and also in the literature on liminality, there is a lot of focus on these out-of-ordinary situations that both human beings and also societies have to cope with. Um in the case of, and I'll come back to your to your question, but in the case of these rites of passage, like ritual passages from one state to another, like a passage from boyhood to manhood, for example. What is really important is that in many of these rituals that anthropologists have studied around the world, there is a ceremony master. There is actually someone helping the people through that passage and who guides them and tests them in the liminal space. Uh also in this case, very often the people going through the ritual haven't really chosen it, but society around them have said that you must now go through this uh rite of passage. But there is a ritual kind of, if you want, not control, but there's a ritual guidance that will take human beings through these steps. Like so you have like a rupture with normality, you have the liminal period, the in-between period, and you have a reintegration uh phase. Now, the question of of liminal spaces, and now you say spaces, Lisa, and it's it's both a space and it's a it's a time as well. So this a spatial temporal uh figuration we're dealing with. Uh you can say in in modern consumer societies, this kind of out of ordinary or breaking a boundary going into some kind of different space can be seen as something we do uh as an individual choice. Um and that was the experience that Victor Turner, the anthropologist, to introduce another uh complicated term that he called liminoid, uh that uh we we do it uh to have an experience uh and as an individual choice. And and that's that's that opens up for a lot of other questions, but but but yeah, that that's what I would start by answering.

SPEAKER_01 7:18

You mentioned um uh something around people carrying you through that space, and I'm curious about thinking about what the impact is when there's no one to carry you through. So one of the topics being discussed in this series is around um liminality and adoption. And I was thinking about that when you were talking about uh somebody carrying you through that liminal space. What if you don't feel carried through or there isn't anyone to carry you through? That's going to impact your experience as well. I mean, not least because humans need humans, right? But when you're in that space, you're going to be particularly vulnerable, aren't you?

Ceremony Masters And Guidance

SPEAKER_03 8:09

Absolutely. And I I think this is a really uh crucial question because in modern society, the kind of society in which we live, those of us talking and those listening, uh, very often you don't have dissonated uh ceremony masters, but you have all sorts of people and sometimes institutions who are supposedly kind of have the knowledge and experience that can take you through. But very often that's that's not really the case. And and I think in many instances human beings are uh are looking for such uh ceremony masters and may not find them. Um I've had um to give an example, I had a PhD who wrote about a divorce and having also your children taken away from you. Um as a liminal experience. That's a sudden rupture that questions your very being and um and that we simply don't have any rituals. So what do you get? You get counseling, you get, you know, institutions that guide you and so on, but it really doesn't do the job for you. So I think in in many, many cases uh it doesn't answer the questions and the big issues that the human beings are dealing with, but the fact that you recognize that the search for an answer has to do with with what kind of guidance we are looking for in liminal experiences. And and I would add also, because as as you said, when you are in a liminal space, you are extremely vulnerable. Um when your previous identity has been shaken, uh there is a certain openness to who you are and your feelings and your identity. We are also human beings are also risking you being carried away in directions that can be dangerous or that are not good for human beings. And if you think about like films and and and novels and so on, actually they have all of them this, almost all of them, they have this. Like there's a situation, suddenly there's a rupture with normality, and people, the actor, the main person, the main character is thrown into a liminal space and time and and what happens in that space. And often you see that things happen that are beyond the control of the central character, right? And what I've also been writing about is that you can have careful uh and you can have ceremony masters that care about you and care about the passage into a new normality. But you can also in that space meet a whole series of more sinister figures that will take you into directions that are maybe not good for you to use a very simple uh language. Uh, and that is the figure I've been writing about using the word the work of uh Agnes Horgart as uh the importance of trickster figures that often appear in these uh liminal spaces that can that can guide both human beings but also entire societies into very, very dangerous uh terrains.

SPEAKER_01 11:21

I mean, that's that's quite um profound when you think about that on a more macro level, but that fits in line very much with work that I've done around belonging, and we will belong somewhere regardless of whether that's good for us or not. It's the same kind of thing. So when we add liminality into the mix, then we're really thinking much more strategically about what is available to support people in going through those rites of passage, those lim that liminal space, which I know for the people who listen to my podcast who work with vulnerability, children, young people, and their families going through all sorts of um challenging, difficult, stigmatizing, rupturing experiences. I think there's a clarity in in actually being intentional about who is there to be with to carry somebody through those that those liminal experiences.

Vulnerability, Tricksters, And Risk

SPEAKER_03 12:39

Absolutely. Yeah. And I think that carrying through is is it's a delicate uh balance because on the one hand, um you have to care for um the human being in question, and you also have to draw on your own experiences as having gone through, if not the same experience, but similar experiences that can kind of establish you as an authority that somehow knows better, right? Um at the same time, it also requires something quite different, namely a humbleness concerning your role, especially in the situations you're talking about, where even though you are an authority, you actually don't really know. Uh, you don't really know exactly what's going on in the human being that you are you are with, and you cannot predetermine the passage itself. You have to also find resonance with the human being you're dealing with. So, for people working in in situations you are describing here, I think a good ceremony master needs that awareness of a double role of authority and being there and being firm. Something that is there is a firm reference point when everything else is fluid, but at the same time not predetermined and not assume that you know exactly what is happening because it has also to do with the way the human being goes through that passage, and that requires uh a sense of empathy uh and humbleness about your role, even when you are in an institutional setting representing the state, helping citizens.

SPEAKER_01 14:35

That intersection, of course, between the experience but also the particular human that's going through it.

SPEAKER_03 14:42

Yes, I would say so. It's also interesting because when you I mean when you use the word belonging, which is of course crucial, which means I mean, with there is no humanness without belonging. We need to belong somewhere, right? Well, that's also uh connected to the experience of of having a home, a sense of home. And and in a in a in a sense, and in a quite deep sense, liminality is a sort of homelessness that for a moment, what is your home is is becomes a question. And I think it's it's not a coincidence that in in many, many uh ritual passages as as performed in in societies around the world. The for example, the the boys becoming men uh or the girls becoming women, although it's very often very gendered quite differently, these ride the passage. But they're actually physically taken away from their previous homes. They're taking out of the village, they're taken out of their homes. They are they become homeless for a period of time. But in that homelessness, of course, they learn about things that can allow them to re-enter a different kind of home home with with with new with a new identity and with new skills and new forms of knowledge that can that can allow them to re-enter a new normality. But the really big danger here is that this sense of of homelessness and loss of belonging in itself can become it can you know endure over time. Uh it can become an not institutionalized, but homeless, it is like kind of continues, like what we call a term that that my my colleague Arpat Sakhusa has introduced, liminality can become enduring, or it becomes becomes a sort of like permanent liminality, that homelessness becomes almost like a permanent condition, which can happen both at the individual level, but certainly in maybe also in a sense in a at the macro level. You need to return to a sense of home.

Belonging, Home, And Homelessness

SPEAKER_01 17:05

Yeah. Um, being in care, so being looked after by the state, I'm not sure what the terminology is in in Denmark, but I have described as an extended liminal space that just not only goes on for a very long time because there's so much movement involved in being in care for children, yeah. But the enduring nature that you're describing, where because there's been so much movement, because there's been so much rootlessness, because there's been so much detachment from belonging, extends into adulthood.

SPEAKER_03 17:40

Yes. Yeah. That makes sense, of course, that what you're talking about is not something I have um ever written about caretaking and in the welfare state context, but but but it makes a lot of sense. And I'm and I'm again stressing that for people working with these areas and who have like sorts of expertise and professional knowledge that I certainly don't have. It's not that liminality, again, provides a fixed set of answers to how you deal with such situations, but it provides a prison for asking good questions that are necessary. And and then how how people, both caretakers and the human beings who need the care, how they deal with those questions, is of course uh open to elaboration. But again, liminality and understanding that it is a sort of a rite of passage and it is a very vulnerable situation and a space and a time. It gives you an understanding of what is at stake and what a ceremony master really is in such situations.

SPEAKER_01 18:45

I love that more than you will ever know. Thinking about the prism, thinking about asking the right questions, thinking about being a ceremony of masters, all of that I think is incredibly useful for people understanding um understanding what we've been talking about, you know, particularly thinking about children in care or people arriving from other countries, you know, all of those kind of aspects. Um I'm going to move us into a slightly more academic space for a moment and just ask which disciplines do you think have used liminality most productively? Because I I'm certain it must be in geography, um political theory, sociology, philosophy. Where do you think and of course anthropology, which is where liminality was born, what where do you think is is a good uh disciplinary form for liminality, or do you think it's very interdisciplinary?

Enduring Or Permanent Liminality

Liminality As Lens Not Doctrine

SPEAKER_03 19:55

It is indeed very interdisciplinary. I mean, for those not acquainted with the Term, as we said before, the term itself comes from anthropology, ethnography, and it was used as a term to describe that middle uh stage in a rite of passage. So anthropologist and Arnold van Geneb in a book from 1909, he realized that all societies have such rites of passage, and that they're all they're not identical in substance, but they all have a similar form. Then there's a rupture, and there's a liminal period, and then there's a reintegration phase. And of course, therefore, it has more than a century of elaboration within anthropology and religious studies. So what has happened in the last uh four decades now is that first uh sociologist and uh political theorist, uh Art Pak Zakulsa and Agnes Horb, uh the first of them, they started to uh uh see and try what happens if we apply this term to um moments of transition, not in the uh trajectory of an individual's life cycle, but to entire societies. And they themselves uh lived through the collapse of communism in in Eastern Europe. And they they realized that once you start to think with liminality, it becomes an extremely powerful tool for understanding uh periods of transition also at the macro level. So since then, uh so sociology and political theory and political sociology, my my own field. I work between anthropology and political sociology and political theory, I guess, as well. Uh, this has uh has become very productive in understanding transitions. And among others, we have uh also worked and and tried to understand political revolutions as uh almost like a quintessential uh rupture of liminality at the macro level, or the constitution is suddenly out of play, government is no longer there, it's being questioned so radically by people on the squares protesting. Uh so normality is broken, but there is not yet a new one. And so what happens in these uh in-between spaces where there is a void of power. Uh, and and and that is extremely uh interesting to try and understand these dramatic upheavals at the political level as as moments and and uh as as spaces of of liminality, where again, going back to the question you asked before, Elisa, so what happens when there is no ceremony master? Because that's certainly also the case in in political revolutions, there are all sorts of figures who try to present themselves as ceremony masters and will take the masters in a certain direction, but but it's it's an open space for all sorts of manipulation as well. And and again, we have argued that very often in such situations, trickster figures that can actually be quite sinister and not caring about the people they talk about can take revolutions in very, very dangerous directions. So going back to your questions, I mean sociology, political sociology, uh, political theory. But really, what we have seen is is and what is happening still today is that the concept has productively been elaborated and used in many disciplines. It includes geography, of course, understanding liminal spaces, um, and rethinking spatial figurations uh with liminality, which of course has had had happened before, just using different terms, but it has certainly been productive in in geography and political geography. But then again, and it's it's certainly not one of those concepts where discipline should safeguard, like we own it, you can't use it. It it's it refers to universal human experience. So no discipline can own something like that. And you see it being used also in in many, many marketing studies, business studies, um like historical transition periods, uh uh archaeology. Um, I'm I'm involved in an archaeology project uh looking at ancient Egypt and and cosmologies of ancient Egypt through liminality, uh performance studies, uh uh architecture, uh, because it's also spatial. I mean, how we construct urban spaces. So I I would say in that sense, um it's it's evolving um international relations, what's happening at the level of diplomacy, international relations, uh, you are also seeing openings there. So it really is again, as I said before, uh in the previous context we were talking about is not as if liminality solves it all, and it's not like a pre-packaged theory that you can just apply, but it opens windows that make you ask different kinds of questions in any kind of discipline.

SPEAKER_01 25:22

Hmm. And bearing that in mind, when do you think that the concept of liminality should not be used or has been overused, or um it it loses its its power, if you like, because it gets watered down, which lots of concepts get watered down if they're you overused and they're used in the wrong places, or people think they understand something that they don't. What examples would you think about in that context?

Disciplinary Roots And Spread

SPEAKER_03 25:55

Yeah, I mean, first of all, I mean, a humble starting point at you know, is it my role to be policing a field because I'm writing about it? Maybe not. So you'll get you'll get different uh answers to this. But but here's my take on it. I I I think it's important to keep in mind where the word comes from. Something about a boundary, something about a transition. So that you move through something, that human beings go through something as a passage involved. And therefore, I would tend to be skeptical about uh using the term when there is no kind of transition. There is no kind of passage, no kind of movement, but it simply uh becomes uh descriptive for uh any kind of experience uh or or or something that has no notion of a passage experience and and and moving beyond a boundary. But I could add a second uh comment to that, and and and the two comments do relate to each other. Um I am hesitant when I see the term being employed as simply denoting something joyful of let's have a good time, uh seeking out a good experience. Like um, and you you do see such um such usages of of the word uh and and in art exhibitions, nothing wrong with art on the country or performances where the liminal simply becomes a word for creativity, and and just stepping outside the normal in that kind of creative sense and break, break, break, break the routines and just doing something new the whole time. It becomes a kind of, as I think I wrote somewhere, a kind of postmodern celebration of that, which always changes. Not recognizing that human beings actually again need a certain return to a normality that can ground our beings and and our social collectivities, that belonging is is somehow reinstalled in the experience of the human being. So that so going back to what we talked about before, in a kind of more extended sense, uh when uh liminality and the homeless becomes not a feature of a human experience, but becomes almost like the end goal itself. We should be liminal, liminality becomes a value. So, in a deeper sense, I guess I could answer you by saying that when liminality becomes a value, something to be celebrated as an end station of constant transformation, then I get very cautious. And I think to a certain extent there is uh there is such a tendency in contemporary consumer modern society to to celebrate uh uh liminality in exactly that that that way.

SPEAKER_01 29:01

Is that what you mean when you use the term conceptual inflation?

SPEAKER_03 29:07

Yeah, it's a conceptual inflation.

SPEAKER_01 29:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:12

But it has normative implications.

SPEAKER_01 29:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:17

And I guess uh uh one more way of answering it, and that's also what I see in in the literature, because there's another term called marginality, that people are marginal. And again, that I would would say, yeah, that that there are many kind of parallels between liminality and marginality, but it it's not the same thing. So when you're marginal, like there is a center and you are far away from the center. It's a different kind of spatial figuration compared to the NIMAL, where you're in between.

SPEAKER_01 29:52

Yes. So I think that's really helpful, actually.

Overuse, Marginality, And Conceptual Care

SPEAKER_03 29:55

Yeah, so marginality, and I see a lot of conflation there in the literature that it simply becomes a different word for, on the one hand, creativity, positive dynamics, and so on and so forth. Or it becomes the marginal, the sub, whatever, the marginal, those who are in a marginal position in the welfare state in society, and then it's just used as marginality. But that's margin again comes from a limit, but it's a different kind of spatial figuration. But but but the really important thing for me to think about beyond the conceptual kind of policing here, at least conceptual hesitation, I think we should we should invite for when when we use the term is is this uh potentially dangerous celebratory attitude towards liminality as simply a constant rupture with boundaries. You know, it's good to shake things now and again. Boundaries need to be transgressed now and again. You know, kids don't become adults if they don't transgress some boundaries. But that when constant transgression, constant transformation becomes a goal in itself, I think we we need to be very careful. And that's why also we have so coined. And uh in my work with him, talked about this this inherent uh feature of modernity, which which risks becoming a sort of like permanent liminality. And and that c causes uh that prompts a meter reflection on on modernity itself.

SPEAKER_01 31:35

Yeah, and I wonder what those who work in education are thinking about that, because I think we could say that that education in its current form is also um you know at risk of being experienced in that way. I'm sorry, do you want to do you have a view on that? Because I was just going to take us into thinking about um liminality and helping us understand very contemporary and current aspects of the way we live now, like digital spaces and AI and climate migration. And I suppose, I mean, that that's a massive question. I don't expect you to answer that, but not all of it at the same time. But um, just kind of bringing us into that kind of very contemporary space. And I, you know, I'm curious about what your view is about how limity liminality helps us understand those areas.

Modernity’s Drift To Constant Change

SPEAKER_03 32:43

I mean, uh yeah, you're asking a big question, um, and we might be able to get back to education, but but first of all, I mean you mentioned digital life, right? Um, which is such a big and important part of the world in which we live. I think, I mean, online life and the worldwide web, as we call it, which opened up a whole new world, is essentially a limal space. It's a space of of transformation, um, and it's potentially also quite uh a dangerous uh space. It's also quite striking that the World Wide Web Um was launched in 1989, and literally the same weeks as the Berlin Wall fell, and those two events, they ushered us into a new epoch, uh which was celebrated back then as a world without borders and boundaries. Now, um what we have seen today and at many levels, and if we start with the physical walls and the boundaries that were supposedly kind of like no longer necessary, we could interact in this new liberal, global capitalist world of free democracies and liberal values, is that actually today we have more physical borders and boundaries and fenced walls than we had during the Cold War. They are multiplying as we speak. All right, so this is something that we're still trying to come to terms with. I think to how can what is it that happened in in in that in over the last four decades? Well, what happened to boundaries, what happened to the way we deal with with boundaries. But if you think about the um the internet, um it's also put I mean potentially limitless. Like you can go in and there's unlimited information. You can talk to anyone, you can get information about anything, and and you can also invent new roles. It's it's a sort of like an entry into a liminal space where transformation can take place. It's also a place where boundaries are actually dissolved, uh, boundaries between physical and online presence, work, leisure, uh, self-transformations, identities. And of course, it it and id. We're talking about you know, half of human experience, so it's not an id, it's something much bigger than that. But it it is essentially a liminal space and time, the internet. So, what happens in there and what that means for our understanding of it and and how we navigate in it is again not something I can answer, but it it it it opens up a series of a series of questions of how we deal with online life. Because freedom as we've seen it with physical borders, is very often followed by new forms of coercion and new forms of exclusion, and new forms of power that become even more pervasive than the ones that were dismantled. And that we see again and very clearly in the online life that we, of course, should not simply throw away but the forms of power and coercion and surveillance that are taking place is beyond control that is dangerous.

SPEAKER_01 36:52

And there's nobody to carry you through. And where is the other end?

SPEAKER_03 37:01

There is no other end and uh I mean you said digital before, right? I mean what is digitalization? It's the relationship between the two numbers, it's zero and one in the infinite. Right? So it's limited. I mean again infinity and the limitless. Uh is is a liminality is kind of is a play with the limitless and and the infinite, well knowing that you know most sane human societies have an awareness of these dangerous uh spaces, but that they must somehow be reconfigured. Because you can't live in the long run with the limitless, limitless and the infinite. But but here and in the what we are dealing with is that they this has become a sort of like permanent feature, that the the limitlessness, but counterbalanced again by their strict borders and acts of surveillance and forces of surveillance and coercion that are that are beyond control. So again, this this is again, I don't have all the answers to this, but it it it can easily also become a sort of void. You know, moving into a space where anything can happen again, the void from the number zero. You could say to the internet and digitization is um is the number zero becoming all powerful.

SPEAKER_01 38:37

Wow, that feels like quite an intense place for us to come to a close. We in on that one that certainly um gives people something to think about. I mean, I have enjoyed this conversation so much, um, and you've mentioned so many um scholars, writers, and theorists in this episode that I want to make sure that I get those details from you and they will be put in the show notes for people that the listener can continue to go and explore yeah.

Digital Life, Boundaries, And Control

SPEAKER_03 39:23

Yeah. So I mean, if I can just end by saying that that to those whom who may listen, I mean it it it is really important for me to stress that when you talk about liminality, that that for me it's a very productive way of thinking. It can open up spaces, it can prompt questions to us, but that it must also be dealt with in a in a humble sense, that it's not a ready theory of the world. I mean, lots of academics they construct theories that can explain everything. I I I don't work like that. And I think for anyone who engages with liminality, it's about entering. Something that can be like a window to the world, a window to your practice as a welfare provider, as an artist, as a political theorist, as a psychologist. But those answers of the questions that are then prompted are not for me, but they are part of a public discussion that I'm happy that I've participated in today with you, Lisa.

SPEAKER_01 40:24

Thank you so much for today's conversation, Bjornis. Thank you. It's been brilliant. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 40:33

You've been listening to the Trauma Resonance Resilience podcast with me, your host, Lisa Cherry. Brought to you straight from the heart of the knowledge that high quality relationships are the cornerstone of learning, healing, and growing. If you've enjoyed this episode, please consider sharing or reviewing. Until next time.