Trauma | Resonance | Resilience
Hosted by Dr Lisa Cherry, this podcast is a multi-agency, inter disciplinary resource for those who work in education, social care, criminal justice or health and to listen to conversations that make a difference. Utilising the wisdom of lived experience, academic research and practice knowledge, we will support you in your work of developing trauma informed, relationally focused practice developing safe, supportive and healing environments. Our collective focus is threefold; preventing harm, not adding to harm, seeking to mitigate harm when it has already happened.
Join us as we explore better ways of working together, sharing emerging research the best practices, all while deep diving into empathy, connection and authenticity.
Trauma | Resonance | Resilience
Season 6, Episode Six, Liminality and The World Between Worlds
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Join Dr Lisa Cherry in Conversation with psychic medium Nikki Leader for the final episode in this 6 part series on liminality!
We explore liminality in the world between worlds, tracing how trauma can open intuition and how small rituals help us cross from fear to becoming. We reflect on trauma as a portal to intuition and change, and rituals as bridges for separation, transition and integration.
Nikki gets a mention in my blog post on The New Year That Belongs to Everyone where we talk about 17th February!
You can find Nikki's website here and she is also on Instagram and TikTok.
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www.lisacherry.co.uk
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This is the Trauma Resonance Resilience Podcast. This is for you if you are interested in compassion, connection, and relationships and how we can all work together creating services that do not add to harm but rather seek to support recovery from it. I'm your host, Lisa Cherry, and this is your time to sit back and listen in on conversations that make a difference.
SPEAKER_03:So this is the final episode in the Liminality series. We've been exploring the concept of liminality. We've been looking at lots of different themes and ideas. But today, because this is the last episode, this is a bit different. It's a bit special. I'm joined by my friend Nikki Leader. My friend of about uh well over 20 years. She's a UK-based psychic medium. She's a tarot reader, spiritual mentor, sound practitioner. She's been doing this for well over three decades. She works online, in person. She's collaborated with the Wellness Foundry and London's home tainment agencies. She offers transformation, transformative readings and ceremonies and sound journeys. And she now focuses on teaching intuitive and spiritual development through her workshops and courses. She's got a very busy WhatsApp community and even gives writing on Substack a go. She is very focused on spiritual tools to help others build their own empowering spiritual routines. Hello, Nikki.
SPEAKER_00:Hello. Thank you so much. What an introduction. I might crib some of that from you.
SPEAKER_03:So, first of all, some of the listeners might hear that I've got the most well, I'm on the end of the most awful cold. I don't like to call it a cold because I'm on day nine now, and I think uh colds for me used to last about 36 hours and then we were done, and this one just keeps going on and on. And I know lots of you will have had this, so I'm with you. It's been awful. But also, some of you may be familiar with me being in conversation with Nikki because we did three podcasts, I'm trying to think when, but some time ago, where we talked about our journeys with cancer, um, which was a very strange experience, where I was on the phone to Nikki and asked her if she was sitting down, told her I had cancer, and then and then she said, so do I uh which was just really strange. So you might be familiar with the wonderful dulcet tones of Nikki. And I've I've chosen to spoke speak to you at the as the last episode because I think your work is in the most liminal space of all. I don't even know how to describe this, but something like you work in the space between life on earth and life after earth, if that's how you describe it. I don't know. And I don't know how how to make sense of that, because it's quite a different lens than the one that I have. So I'm always very fascinated by your work. So maybe you could clarify what that actually looks like and what it means, but also what does that mean for you when you use liminality as a way of understanding that?
SPEAKER_00:Yes, so my work is absolutely in the liminal space, and I work in the world between worlds, if you like. So I'm often referring to, you know, the adage of mind, body, spirit, and all my work is part of and includes rituals and practices that connect me into different unseen dimensions or frequencies or energies that you can't see, feel, hear, or touch, but you know that they're there. So it is in a space where there is absolutely no proof. There's no point in somebody ringing up and saying, I don't believe what you do is true, because it's not really about the truth. It's very much based on evidence when I work with somebody and they will say to me, Oh yes, that feels right, or oh yes, that resonates with me. So I guess in a way, all my clients are also in a liminal space. That's why they come to me, because they might be, they're in transition of some sort. They might be at a complete loss, they may have lost somebody. And all my work is about transition and supporting that transition away from where they are at that point, and then what they're either choosing or they're about to become, if that makes sense for you. So it's it's a space that for me is very sacred. So everything I do, whether it's a sound bath, whether it's a tarot reading, before I work in any way, I obviously have my own personal rituals because I want to be present in the everyday world. I don't spend my life up in the spirit world. I don't want to, and I'm here to have a really good time and do what I can to learn. And I'm learning all the time about being in the physical body. But I went through an experience that it almost kind of chose me because I hadn't experienced anything like this previously to, and then in the early 2000s, I had a car crash and my psychic senses just exploded.
SPEAKER_03:I was going to ask you about that. How you kind of even got here? How did you even get into the world that you're working in now?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I always say it found me because I had this experience. It was extremely traumatic. And I had met somebody who did energy healing previously, and I didn't really know what that was. But and I'd also met a lady who was a tutor at the College of Psychic Studies, and she taught mediumship. I had no idea, I had no connection with any of this stuff. I have found out since that there is a little bit of family connection to this work. However, my experience was that I had this car crash, I started to see things, I could feel things, and it it was utterly extraordinary because I suppose, in a way, I went into that liminal space where I feel you go into immediately post-trauma. You know, if somebody dies, I always get a sense that people are in a liminal space. And for me, to understand that is to explain that your your energy, which normally would be grounded in your body, so when you're feeling connected and things are going well, and compared to when something traumatic happens, your energy leaves your body. So you're not actually connected and grounded unless you do it consciously and intentionally. And a lot of people go into a liminal space because they can't face their life or they can't face what's going on in the world. So they take drugs or they take alcohol. So that would be sort of an alternative state, but that's not what I use when I'm working. I intentionally open my energy field to receive. I have an absolutely fixed way that works really well for me. And I'm sure every medium in the world or tarot reader, you know, everybody works in a different way, but this is how I was taught, and then I put my own spin on it. But ultimately, I make sure my feet are on the ground so that I'm very present to hold a space for somebody, my clients. And then I open up the right hemisphere of my brain. And that's the creative side. That's the side which is feminine and it's on receive. Whereas the masculine side is on broadcast and it's the doing stuff and it's the logical and it's how you make money. And when you're working, you're more in your masculine and you're doing. So I have a practice whereby when I'm working, I completely close down my left side of the brain, I open up my right side, and it works for me. That's how I receive the messages, that's how I receive the feelings and the voices and everything that I work with that comes from somewhere. That's how I open up to receive it. But then I will close it down, say thank you very much, and I get on with my life.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? Because I think lots of people, you know, that you're you come into contact with probably go, what do you see? What can you hear? And you have to remind people, you know, I'm not working right now. You know, that's not what's going on right now. That's so interesting what you said about what happens where there's been trauma. I mean, expand on that a little bit more, what you mean by that.
SPEAKER_00:I feel a lot of people who come to this work come to it because where they are is not working, or they have an experience that takes them into a space where they are guided towards something else. And I suppose that's why I do call it a liminal space, because trauma is something that happens, and you know, there's many, many. We know so much more about trauma. And when I say trauma, I don't even mean huge things. I mean, for me, it was huge. Who knows? You know, for me, there is an intelligence that breathes us, there's an intelligence that grows the trees that we are all a part of, but that we can tap into. But it's so much bigger than we could even possibly imagine, beyond our human brains to understand. And in my world, trauma is something that happens because it needs to, because in the much bigger picture, we are here to evolve as a soul, and that we toodle along, if you like, in our own little way, and then suddenly something comes out of the blue, and it's almost like you're re-signposted to something completely different that you would never in a million years have thought of or that you would have ended up, thought of ended up that you were doing. I know that's an obvious thing for me to say because that's what happened to me. But when I meet anybody who's in this space, particularly the more kind of, you know, mediumship, that sort of thing, it's either somebody whose mother did it or, you know, it's a family, it's in the family, or you are brought to, you know, if you become a nutritionist, it's very likely that you yourself had a, you know, issues with food. If you end up by, you know, being overwhelmed with stress in the city as a man or working, you may well have found your peace in breath work, or you may well have found your peace in meditation. So there is these cycles that I feel we're all meant to be living. And within those cycles, if we don't naturally, which most people don't, search and reflect and say, okay, I feel like there's a cycle coming to an end. What next? Then often life says, right, this is what's next. This is where you need to be. And it will come in the form of disease, it will come in the form of any experience that wakes you up as a human being to say, there is more than this, or there is something different than this.
SPEAKER_03:Hmm. I wonder how often humans, people, ignore that kind of calling, if you like. Because you kind of have to be forced, don't you, really, to what you're describing is you're being kind of forced into change. I suppose if I think about what I've been going through for the last couple of years, and when I was told that I had months to live, you know, that completely changed my life. I literally heard that as a call for change, dramatic change. But I wonder if what it's like if you're resisting that change, if there's a resistance to that change, um, and what happens for people, is it a resistance to the liminal space? Is it a res you know what what does that look like? And do you think people come to you in that state as well?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, very much so. And and I'm always fascinated and and so it so resonates with me the way indigenous tribes treat all of all of this. Because I know we were going to talk about rituals, which for me become bridges. And actually, what we're talking about with this liminal space is looking at bridges and how we cross those liminal spaces. And what I've witnessed over and over again is without some sort of intention or some sort of shift, which probably does involve creating some sort of ritual as a as a bridge, people get stuck where they are. And people don't like being stuck. You know, we are we are beings of control to a certain extent, pretty much everybody, which is why the world is in the state it's in now, is because the ultimate letting go is when we take ourselves into a liminal space with intention, then being completely open to where we then get taken, not necessarily where we take ourselves, because I often say to my clients, you know, put it, put it out there what you want, but then let it go. Be open to a lot more or something completely different, detach from how you think your life's going to be. And, you know, that's a very Buddhist philosophy, is you know, detach from the attachment. But we all feel safe with attachments. And that's where I feel when somebody goes into a liminal space, it can create so much fear. And so people stay perpetually in that unresolved in-between space, treading water, and then get more and more and more tired because they're not listening or perhaps waking up to the signs that are being presented to them. You know, it's let's take illness, for example, you know, somebody who constantly, constantly is under stress. But because society is naturally so stressful anyway, and you and I both have first-hand experience of that, is that suddenly something will happen that stops you and might even be, yeah, a really bad bout of flu or something where you have to stop. And then in that place, something, it's almost like you have the head space because you're grounded and you pause. And for me, so much of this work is just about pausing, stopping, letting go, and being in that liminal space where you're very comfortable with uncertainty and complete pause. And I suppose ritual and being able to center yourself with some sort of practice, it means that it gives you ritual gives you permission to grieve, it gives you permission to celebrate, it gives you permission to then claim what is next. Because when we let things go and we're then open to what comes, we then start, as some people would say, co-creating with the universe. And this new era that we are moving into now where control is such a big issue, and we're realizing that individually what we can manage and control and what we can't. And I feel we're being shown very clearly what is our business, what is your business, and what is God's business or source business, or whoever your higher power is. And so it's the difference, I suppose, between leaving through the back door and constantly feeling that you're not going to progress, or this is it, and you know, and we move into victimization in a way. Or we take hold of it and we say, right, I'm going to walk through that front gate now with everything I have, you know, all my wounds, because I've looked at those and we're all shadow and we're all light. And I know exactly what I'm leaving behind, why I'm leaving why I'm leaving it behind, and what I now want, and I can do that with my head held high without any expectation whatsoever. But if I lead that myself and I do it with my heart, that brings together that transformation and it helps it land in your body.
SPEAKER_03:So while you were speaking earlier, I I'm really pleased that you've brought in uh thinking about indigenous cultures because I was thinking about ancestors and working with ancestral healing, ancestral trauma in the work that you do, which of course is very much part of indigenous culture, is that we don't stand here alone, we are part of this whole line. I wonder if you can speak to that a little bit more.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, very much. I I'm absolutely fascinated with it all, actually, because ultimately, and what I'm seeing a lot with my clients, and I think just as a very quick aside, we need to understand what is going on in a lot of people who use astrology or, and that obviously includes indigenous tribes. Back in 2012, the Mayans particularly, if we just focus in on that for the moment, said that in 2012, the end of the Mayan calendar would fall on that date. And what they said, and many, many cultures have said the same, is there would be a shift. So we humanity lives in these processional ages. And the first one that is really spoken about is the age of Leo, and it moves through the constellations of the sky. And just as an aside, remember that you know the moon is completely tidal and we're water. So it for me it makes total sense that we're so connected to the sky and the earth. So I do pay a lot of attention to what's going on in the sky, and I let it guide me and I listen to its influences. But on a much, much bigger picture, and some of your listeners will resonate and know this, but we're moving from a 2,000-year age of humanity where it was a masculine age, so we saw a lot of masculine domination. The previous age that a lot of people say that we are really healing traumatically is the age of Aries. And Aries is the warrior. Aries is fire, it's masculine energy, it's when power took over, and people who were around in the age of Aries became very, very dominant, and war became something that, if you think about energy, when all the history, you know, we are healing timelines of warriors tramping their energy onto the planet. Where does that go? I don't know. And you might have somebody who'll be able to tell us more. But my understanding of it is that we are actually healing timelines of trauma. You know, this is not just about you and I and our mums and dads. It goes way, way back. And a lot of the healing that I'm seeing at the moment, and I'm working with my clients, particularly feminine energy, is timelines of feminine energy that has been squashed, become subservient, that has been used by masculine energy. And you see it play out. We're seeing it playing out everywhere, everywhere. And in a way, we are in this liminal space right now, between the age of Pisces, which is masculine energy, we're moving towards this age of Aquarius, which is feminine energy. I cannot emphasize enough, and particularly we're recording this towards the end of January. February is absolutely massive. And we are seeing the world move, and I guess in transition between wounded children, and we are all wounded children. How can we transition towards conscious adult? And it's a maturity that's happening for everybody, but on so many levels, AI is going to be a big part of that that will keep us being extremely aware of what power looks like. I mean, there is so much to say on that, but I believe the indigenous tribes have are holding the wisdom of if we can return to, and it's the one glorious thing about the internet, is they now have a voice. And people like me, who were working underground as a psychic medium for so, so long, there are generations of children now who think it's perfectly normal. You know, if anybody's listened to the telepathy tapes, all this surge of autism coming onto the planet. The bigger purpose is we are maturing, we're returning back to letting go of control and really returning to what the indigenous tribes know as deep connection. And that connection between love or dimensions or God or source or whatever and being in the physical body, when you have that connection, there is everything that comes together. And I believe truly that this is everything is waking up very, very quickly. It's very quick. Because as you know, I was talking to you a long, long time ago about this. And I think you sort of, like most people, it was like, yeah, yeah, I kind of that sounds really interesting. But now we're seeing it, we're seeing it play out in the world, and it brings me so much joy, I cannot even tell you. And I think almost you could apply the words liminal space to absolutely every piece of where we're at right now. Every single piece, every human being is in a liminal space. They're not there yet, but they are in transition towards becoming somebody else or doing something else or living somewhere else, or it's absolutely fascinating. And on a collective, if you think about a lot of global leaders and we look at that transition from wounded child to conscious adult, who's going to come into that and who isn't?
SPEAKER_03:I would agree. I mean, the whole idea about liminality is who carries us, who holds us through that liminal space, and what happens when there is no one to hold us. And what Bjorn talked about in episode one was it's an opportunity for what he called bad actors to come into that, which of course makes total sense when we're looking, I guess, through a political lens, would be one lens of thinking about that, about how that works. So, as you said, we're recording this at the end of January, and it will probably be March, the beginning of March before this is aired. So February will have happened, and I'm really excited about February because my birthday is on the same day as the beginning of the Chinese New Year, which is the year of the fire horse. So all this shedding that's been going on in the year of the snake, which feels very much how it's been, get rid of this, get rid of that, remove that, remove that person, remove that place, remove that thing, um, in preparation for this kind of opportunity. So it'd be very interesting to see when this goes out, um, you know, looking back and going, gosh, February.
SPEAKER_00:That was a lot of things. Absolutely. And and we have two also very big, obviously nothing as important as your birthday. Thank you very much.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you for that.
SPEAKER_00:There is a conjunction between Saturn and Neptune. What we're looking at in February is illusion versus reality. And just bear that in mind because the masks now have to come off. Apart from anything else, we have more photon light now coming onto the planet, which even scientifically means if you shine a brighter light on something, the shadow is gonna feel look even more clear. That makes sense. So just think about that for yourself. Anything that you're holding on to that is dark or darker, or anything that the planet is holding that's dark is now going to be illuminated. So, from a February point of view, February the 20th is the start of a very, very big, very big transition. And we haven't had this for 9,000 years. It has not been at zero degrees. So we're talking eons ago, and the shift that we've just had as we're recording this actually this week, is the planet of illusion and deep, deep emotions has just changed signs into Aries. And the reason I hoped back to the age of Aries is because everything is about to go into Aries, and Aries' beginnings, it's absolutely new beginnings, and every single person is not going to look the same at the end of this year as they are now. They're just not. And some will continue to shed, some will absolutely gallop forwards, but everybody is in some sort of transition. And in order to do that, we need to separate ourselves first from what we've been. So that's where the separation comes in. And then we get move into this transition, which is where we are now, and then we start to integrate everything. And we need to do this slowly because we'll start to get used to using our intuition because we won't be able to believe everything on the internet by any means. So we're gonna have to use intuition, we're gonna have to completely connect with our gut. So gut health is still gonna continue to be a massive thing, but it's more than that, and it's everybody will, I feel, start practices and becoming coming together in many more groups, working together to find that pause, to let go of things in that one moment and then be on receive, knowing that pushing, pushing, pushing forwards, it we know that doesn't work. And that doesn't allow any form of liminal space or liminality at all. And in the same way that, you know, we go to sleep perfectly comfortably, we don't panic, some people might, but generally most people go to bed, they go to sleep. They're very happy to sit in that liminal space between the previous day and the next day. Everything about it. So that really involves the trust of that liminal space. Can you be in that uncertainty and move from these what I call soul-level bookmarks? You know, we're ending one and we stick the bookmark in. Because then we can close this chapter and we can start to open up another one rather than just drifting through these transitions without any idea of what is going on, but getting very uptight and frustrated at the external world without looking at our parts in that external world, because every single one of us is connected to that. Every everybody.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, and I think you've highlighted for me what I feel all the way through this series, really, which is that liminality is a really helpful lens to deal with thinking about being in these uncertain places and how we support people through them, how we support ourselves through them. Um I wanted to come back to ritual. I was speaking at a conference the other week and they asked me if I'd do a workshop in the afternoon. I don't normally do workshops, but I thought I will. I'll I'll do one. And I I decided I was going to do a session on ritual and just invite people, really, because when you're doing these kind of workshoppy things in a conference, you don't have very long, you're not likely to do very much. But what you can do is you can open up some questions and help people start thinking about something. So I decided I was going to invite people to start thinking about ritual. Um, it was in the context of children, young people in care and in education, and what kind of rituals would be helpful for them in that context. But of course, ritual is for all sorts of contexts. So I wondered, you know, how do you see ritual? How do you see ritual in helping people move from what did you call it, the world of the world of worlds? Working between worlds. Working between worlds. So where does ritual sit in that? And does that do you think help people come together so that it it supports that holding and that community through uncertainty?
SPEAKER_00:I think ritual speaks a language for for in my world, ritual speaks a language that the soul understands. So we might use symbols, we use intentions, we can use mantras, we can use sacred action. And your logical mind might not know how to process something, but when we add that ritual and intention, your soul knows how to work with fire and water and all those elements. And that that is why I believe people use things in nature for rituals, because we can relate to them, but also they are growing, they're living, they're sentient, and they have energy to them. Um, and it I suppose when I work with my clients on a mentoring, that's when I support them with rituals that they can do themselves. And then when in a gathering experience, it's very much I feel about people understanding. And when they show up, they're showing up in self-care, they're showing up in well-being, that they're kind of showing up knowing that this is going to be a sacred space to enter and feel safe enough to release and surrender or do whatever they have come to do. A lot of people are using cacao now in sound baths, and I feel there is a part, it it's, you know, everybody holds rituals in different ways. I have my own that I do personally, and then I hold a space for rituals when I do a sound bath. You know, we will always do the guided meditation, we will always, I will always open the space up. And I sit for a while anyway before I work, because everything I do comes from a different place. So I connect with that different place. Some people, you know, it might be spirit guides, it might be nature, whatever, whatever I'm doing. But I I only do this work, which is why I'm not on TikTok doing live tarot readings or whatever. That's not my that's not my thing really. That definitely has a space for some people, but it's not really my thing because I feel that clients need a space that applies to whatever it is that they are wanting to explore. And it is an exploration. It's not about fixing them. It's not that there's anything wrong with them. It's I feel always in all my work that I'm holding a space for their transition and their whatever they are facing, I am a facilitator for that transition, and I hold a space for them. And however they choose to do that, I think it's a beautiful space to have large gatherings. And we know, and there's research now based on um Dr. Joe Dispenser has got his new research out about, you know, a couple of thousand people sending healing to one person, and they've measured this, you know, they now have machines and stuff to measure this. We know, you know, it's there now, tangibly, that you can see something is happening to that person, something is changing. And often when I used to work with horses, particularly, you know, with an animal, you can really see what is happening when healing happens. So ritual is part of the work that I do. And so I guess I separate, I use the ritual to separate from my normal life. Then I'm in transition, and that's the experience of me doing the work. And then I will also have a small ritual. That's that's how I close down, I give thanks, and I, yeah, have my I reground myself really so that I'm present and I'm not all over the place when I go do my supermarket shop, or I'm not drifting around everywhere. But it's a reconnection. I really use rituals as a reconnection to something greater. And I think that disconnection is really the pandemic of our world, of our society.
SPEAKER_03:I was going to actually just touch on that and make that, I guess, our last question. Not least because I suspect that this episode is blowing some people's minds. For some people, they'll be very familiar with some of what you're talking about, and for other people, they might not have even thought about any of this stuff. And so I was going to ask you about I suppose modern life, you know, the way we live, uh does that leave us missing rituals? Does does your work help fill that gap? And if your work and the way that you what you call your in your world doesn't kind of fit for somebody and doesn't resonate for somebody, how can people find a way of incorporating ritual into their life that would really help them?
SPEAKER_00:You know, you meet people where they're at. And if what I do doesn't resonate, and and it doesn't with lots of people, somebody else's might, and everybody will find their way. But what I do know is that the whole planet and and everybody right now, particularly in the West, who has completely forgotten how to be in reverence and grace and deep love with themselves, because ultimately that's what their soul has come here to bring to the world is that love. And then we kind of disconnect from it, and then we spend our life reminding us that actually what we really are is is love. And it's it's in this becoming. I genuinely feel that there is enough now in the world, and it's becoming more and more and more that either people something will happen in somebody's life that, and I go back to that bit again of the trauma or the change, and something happens that becomes it helps them realize that what they're doing is not sustainable anymore. And that is generally how I feel the universe is going to teach us and show us how to evolve and move forwards. That it'll just be something very, very ordinary potentially that will happen. But for that person, it might be the last straw, or it might be, it'll become unsustainable. And so you have to find other ways in a way to function. Now, whether they choose that to be spiritual tools, which might be meditation, or it's it's reconnecting people back with their body. Everybody walks around in trainers. Trainers are what give you two inches above the earth. So that's just for the start. We are all two inches above the earth. We are disconnected as absolutely to our bones. We're disconnected, which then means that we're just living in our head all the time. We're thinking away out of problems. We need to get back into the body and feel safe there and understand that the earth will nourish us, we'll provide everything we need if we reconnect to what is actually already provided. We have everything we need. We're just disconnecting from it at every possible corner. And and seek to destroy it. And seek to destroy it. I mean, what sort of wisdom is that? What sort of wisdom? It it's, I mean, if you really think about it, it is quite extraordinary what we've done and and what we're doing. And and, you know, we have one or two incredible people, Jane Goodall and David Attenborough. You know, we have to return back to what is going to sustain us, and that is the earth. It is. And some people find that very woo-woo, or you know, used to be very new age, but it's it's being proven now, you know. We cannot label it as anything other than truth anymore. We have no choice. We are going to have no choice. So that would be my sense. But but the the ritual of just filling your cup first with whatever that looks like and repeating that and and being intentional and present with that actually does bring an awful lot of wisdom back that you remember, oh, this is what it feels like, um, which comes away from the work I do, which takes my energy up to a different place. But every single client that I have, and I've had thousands, they know that when they have either put down a Zoom call or they've left a workshop or whatever, they all tell me there is something that makes them feel uplifted and calm.
SPEAKER_03:And who doesn't want to feel uplifted and calm? And I hope that the listener has really loved the whole series, but also has an understanding about why this has been the final episode to leave you with thinking about liminality. So I just want to thank you so much, Nikki, for today. You know, you are my friend, and I love phoning you up and you talking to me in planets. I love it. Um so thank you so much for joining me today.
SPEAKER_00:My pleasure. Just remember that's my word to leave you with today. You j everybody just needs reminding, really, of who they are.
SPEAKER_01:You've been listening to the Trauma Resonance Resilience podcast with me, your host, Lisa Cherry. Brought to you straight from the heart of the knowledge that high-quality relationships are the cornerstone of learning, healing, and growing. If you've enjoyed this episode, please consider sharing or reviewing. Until next time.