Squirrel Searches For Love - The Creation of A Children's Book on Loss

Join Dr Lisa Cherry in conversation with Fiona Holiday, Play Therapist and illustrator of the children's book on loss "Squirrel's Search for Love", a book conceived from Lisa becoming a Grandma and also having a life-limiting illness.

There is an honest discussion about the early, foggy stage of creating when Lisa was unwell and how a strong collaboration can hold uncertainty until the story finds its shape. Fiona shares her craft process of building a sketchbook trail of ideas, creating consistency across pages and doing the preparation that lets the final artwork stay fresh.

We also dig into why illustration and storytelling are such powerful tools for children’s bereavement and grief support. Pictures can carry meaning on a non verbal level, offering continuity, safety and tiny details that children return to as they make sense of loss. 

If you’re writing a children’s book for the first time, or you're working with children and using a trauma informed lens, or you want to talk to children you're caring for about death with compassion, this conversation is for you.

Buy the book HERE. 

Learn more about Fiona HERE.

Transcript

Welcome And Podcast Purpose

SPEAKER_00 0:04

This is the Trauma Resonance Resilience podcast. And this is for you if you are interested in compassion, connection, and relationships, and how we can all work together creating services that do not add to harm but rather seek to support recovery from it. I'm your host, Lisa Cherry, and this is your time to sit back and listen in on conversations that make a difference. Well, today is a little bit different from what you normally might find on the podcast. I don't know if you might have noticed, but I've been sharing a little bit on social media about the fact that my next book is a children's book. And I have to say, I'm an accidental children's book writer in that regard. That is not what I normally get up to. But I wanted to write a children's book for my grandchild. And I feel that it's really important that I give you some context as to why I wanted to do that. And I wanted to do that because in July 2025, I was given just a few months to live. And one of the things that became really that came to the fore in that process was around legacy and around my family and around my grandchild, who was born in May 2025. And so I thought what I'd really like is a book that would help her understand that people die and that there is still the residue of their love lingers on. So that's the context of the book. Now I also, within that context, had to find myself an illustrator, a drawer I am not. And so today is very much about having a conversation with the wonderful Fiona Holiday, who very graciously accepted the challenge of illustrating this book. So welcome, Fiona. Hello. Hello.

SPEAKER_01 2:28

Hello.

SPEAKER_00 2:30

Well, it's lovely to see you. And you know, thank you so much for coming on the podcast and having a conversation about this process. I guess we're going to talk a little bit about why, a little bit about how, and perhaps a bit about the process. And for any of you who are thinking, God, I'd love to write a children's book, um, it really is quite a different journey. So, Fiona, when I came to you and I said, would you be interested in illustrating a children's book? What on earth? Oh, on grief and loss, um, what on earth possessed you to say yes?

SPEAKER_01 3:14

Yes. Well, I couldn't say no. I think for for uh me, there was a huge privilege of being asked to work on something with you. Um, we have history, so I have known you for a few years, and I have done illustrations for you before, but for your adult audience books, and um they were very discreet chapter headings, section dividers, that sort of thing, but all but always a joy to talk with you about what the images might be and what they might mean, or what the metaphor in the images might resonate within the subject of the book. So I know that working with you is a joyful process. And um I had to balance that with my own large gulp that I took when uh we had that first conversation. Because although I've drawn and painted for many, many years, and it's been my go-to for my own telling my own story, understanding my own story, the work that I do with children in play therapy around story, I often illustrate those. Um, but I hadn't done a proper children's book. I hadn't had to see one through from the beginning to the end. And there's always the doubt of that's quite a different thing to do. But I thought that you were on a bit of a journey in terms of your intention and what you were thinking about. And why not? Because actually it's a subject that is addressed quite a lot in children's books. But what we were talking about was something that took a slightly different approach or a different angle, and I was interested in that. Um and up for a challenge. And yeah, that was that was why I said yes, really.

Working Through Fog And Uncertainty

SPEAKER_00 5:19

Well, I feel like I what I should have said at the beginning was that I'm now on a clinical trial and death is not imminent, um, which I didn't say before, but it meant that when we were having those really early conversations, I was quite heavily medicated, and um the myelombar in my body meant that my brain was very, very foggy. So some of the early conversations I remember um for not remembering, you know, like I know we had those conversations, um, but I wasn't able to have much clarity. I was a bit all over the place. I mean, that must have been a bit difficult as well.

SPEAKER_01 6:04

Yes, yes, it was, but um, that's part of it, isn't it? I mean, you know, the subject matter is difficult, it's all difficult. And I think um there is something that gives you a lot of clarity when you start really thinking about dying and what that means for you, but also for the people around you. So it was a feeling of ways, I think, a feeling of ways to expression, to encapsulating, to organizing. And what I know is that we use story to organize our experience all the time. The stories people tell us, the stories we tell ourselves. Um, so I knew it was going to be a helpful organizing process. And you have to get stuck into the murky muddled beginning in order to find your way through, which is a little bit like Squirrel and his journey.

SPEAKER_00 7:06

Yeah, well, sort of speaking about that muddling through, how did your kind of way of doing things, you know, as I also got a bit better and a bit more clear in my communication as well, you know, how did you how did the whole process like evolve from me saying, I want to do this book, you gulping and going, Yes, let's do it? What was your process like?

SPEAKER_01 7:37

It it is uh when when we said we're going to talk about this, I took a sigh of relief that what I'd done is from the very beginning, I've got a big chunky folder notebook drawing sketchpad thing, which sort of almost documents that process in terms of what it looked like at the very beginning. And um it was very much a distilling, I think, of ideas and thoughts and images, and also the process of trying to be objective and look at what you've done and thinking, does this make any sense? And how is this going to transition from one thing to the other? Because the thing about doing a whole book with you know many pages is that there's got to be something that continues, there's got to be um a thread that runs through, there's got to be a consistency of style, and that is, you know, I like novelty. I I don't like doing the same thing over and over again. So I had to work my way through taking, you know, in allowing enough novelty and flow and creativity and freshness alongside knowing that squirrel had to be on every page and you know, the squirrel had to look quite similar all the time. So there was a process of almost taking that journey as a in a metaphorical sense and thinking what it would look like physically through in the world, in the natural world, and locating it in time and space as well as sort of emotionally. So um I think my process was very much an organizing and distilling process, you know, sort of what can I, what can I leave out? What do I need to put in? Or what is the thread? And interestingly, Squirrel wasn't, was just a sideline in the very at the very beginning. He did, you know, squirrel didn't exist. Really, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 9:38

I was just going to say that to you because squirrel is now the central character. Squirrel searches for love is the title of the book, and squirrel is everything. I mean, we did we did run a little bit of a competition to find a name for squirrel, and we just landed on squirrel. It's just like squirrel doesn't even need like a name other than squirrel. So, how was squirrel born?

How Squirrel Became The Hero

SPEAKER_01 10:01

Um, I I think I've got a thing about squirrels, bizarrely. I have ended up with a lot of squirrels, but um because we were talking nature and trees, and actually, trees have been a bit of a thing in the work that we've done all the way through. So, you know, right back at conversations, there is a tree that, you know, and there is a seed and there is growth. And so from trees and then populating trees with creatures that live in trees came squirrel and various other fauna. And um, the more I drew squirrel and played with squirrel, I was thinking, you know, well, actually, there's there's things about squirrel that resonate in terms of the losing and the finding and the looking and the curiosity and the journey and the leaps of faith from one branch to another. And um, and they're slightly um just startled view of the world. And and um so squirrel grew out of a sense that we like to keep things safe. We like to keep things safe that are precious too. So, you know, squirrel with his acorns or her acorns, you know, whatever, however we see squirrel. And we try and search for the things that we've put away, the things that are precious to us. And I guess, you know, when I'm thinking on a metaphorical, symbolic level, that is that is how I went. Here's a squirrel. What do you think of squirrel?

SPEAKER_00 11:35

Yeah, and I mean the illustrations are stunning. I can't wait for everyone to see them. They are stunning. You've completely blown me away, actually, with how amazing they are. Um, and if anyone's thinking about going into partnership with an illustrator and thinking about that process from idea to creation, I mean, I guess being really open-minded is really important. And I mean, luckily, I'm absolutely hopeless at visualizing stuff. So people say, right, I was thinking of doing this, this, this, and this, what do you think? I'm like, I have no idea. Draw it, and if I love it, I'll tell you I love it. And if I don't, then I'll tell you that I don't, and what doesn't work about it. But I can't, which probably makes me much easier to work with than someone who's got a really clear idea of what they want, and you've got to get their brain onto the page. I am not that person. So um I need to see something and then have a response to it. So that that made working together, I think, really, I would hope, more straightforward and a bit easier. Um and and I guess that that leads us to thinking about balancing that kind of artistic freedom, but also with the needs of the narrative. I mean, how did how did that feel?

SPEAKER_01 12:59

I I I knew that the book um, you know, it had some constraints in terms of having to repeat um the same character over and over again. And um, and I think what I tried to do was not do the final illustrations until we'd completely nail down the composition and the tone and the you know how how it would look. Um because I wanted the illustrations to have the sense of flow and freshness. And um, what I find is if I do the same thing over and over again, it gets really tight because I s I start anticipating where I'm going to put the line and and I start overthinking it, and then I don't like it, and I didn't want it to be that process where I was overly critical of what I was doing because I would just get all oh no, I can't do it anymore, and um, I don't like what I'm doing. So I think the balance was in the pre it was in the preparation, it was in the discussions, it was sending you all the pictures of do you want this or that? Do you like this style or that style? Do you want transparent or opaque? You know, all of those early conversations and groundwork meant that when it came down to constructing the story and how that might feel, I almost felt like I was doing the illustrations for the first time. And that was really helpful. So that allowed me that sense of freedom because there are details in there that we didn't discuss and that I didn't really plan until I did them, you know, and I thought, oh, actually, there's a little space here, we could pop this there, and oh so there was still an excitement and an interest and a novelty in that which I needed, but also I'd done so many pictures of squirrel in different positions and different expressions with different aspects with different that I also had enough freedom to create a fresh squirrel on each page, um, which was helpful. So I think it's all about the preparation and that standing back and then allowing in the moment for you to do what to do.

What Children Notice In Pictures

SPEAKER_00 15:15

So and as a as a play therapist, because that was really important to me as well, that you understood children, you understood development, you know, and you understood some of the things that children need from a book. What do you think children see in the illustrations and in a children's book that adults aren't necessarily looking for?

SPEAKER_01 15:42

Uh I was I was thinking about me when I was a child, and I was always really interested in the detail. You know, the like the little thing, the main picture gives you a sort of a sense and a feel. But I I think that children notice the little things, the tiny. So what so as I was going along, I was thinking, what can I pop in here that actually isn't central to anything, but also adds a layer of meaning that you know will enhance and will also add a bit more visual interest. So small details. Um and I think there is, I you know, children and adults alike will absorb things from an image that you don't really notice. You know, when we look, our brain will see far more than we actually process. So there is a there's a whole layer of stuff going on that I have intentionally put in there, but once I've done it, I've got no control over what people see and take out. So that that's always interesting, isn't it? I suppose as a writer as well, you know that you put something out in the world, and there's going to be a, you know, and you think, oh, I'll add this, and this means that and that means the other. But actually, it's the child or the reader that makes sense of what is actually on the page. Um but I think I think it's the details, I think it's the continuity. And um, there are a few bits where I'm looking, and now I'm looking back going, oh I bet somebody will spot that when they when they look at the illustration.

Illustrations As A Language For Grief

SPEAKER_00 17:18

But that's art, isn't it? And that's the same with writing. You you know, as soon as I've written something and I've released it out into the kit into the world, I have a problem with it. Because, of course, if I wrote it in this moment, even if this moment is only a few moments away from that moment, I would write it better and tighter. Um, and that's the same with any art form, and that's what makes it quite a vulnerable expression because you're doing something knowing that it's never going to be perfect, you're never going to be happy with it fully because you're always evolving yourself. So you're always going to be looking back on your work and wishing you'd done it better or you missed something, and and that's part of the whole process. So I guess moving on to thinking about the subject matter, which is grief and loss, which of course is something that we can all connect with. What role do you think that illustrations play in helping children to make sense of difficult uh experiences? And I ask that, um, having done and continuing to do some pieces of work with the book trust um around choosing quite specific books that have quite specific themes, particularly thinking about kinship care, for example. Um so there there is a role for books, but my view is they don't always have to be explicit about what the subject matter is, that actually it's the person they're sharing the reading with that can help make sense of. What's your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_01 19:02

I'm gonna use a really well-worn cliche in that you know, a picture tells a thousand words. You know, you can encapsulate so much more in an image than you can in any number of words because you're working on so many different levels, um, and you have the ability to use um line in in such a um delicate way, you know, it can be heavy, it can be light. And as we look at images, we can it can bring a whole load of meaning to it. If I asked you, if I gave you one of the illustrations of Squirrel and say, can you describe this? It would take you, you know, paragraphs and paragraphs of words. But actually, if you look at the image, immediately you get a feeling of either the the darkness, the the yearning, the you know, the what is within it without without having to use any of those words. And in the terms that, you know, in terms of really strong feelings, when difficult stuff happens, when when we experience trouble, we lose our words. We lose that verbal ability to organize. And actually, the image is the thing that we can connect with, and we can make of it what we need to make of it in that moment. So I think illustrations allow the openness and the um a connection on a on a more visceral, non-verbal level, um, that you know that we don't get in the same way with words. And I think for children, it's the relief in seeing something which says what you are experiencing with such an economy is is immense.

Publishing Choices And Practical Advice

SPEAKER_00 20:51

And I think that's what I really wanted to convey was that it's perfectly normal to want to know what happens when somebody's gone. Does it mean all the love's gone with them? Where might you find it? You know, hence queer all search for love. So I think we hit the spot really nicely. And just to talk about the publishing process, um, it is being um uh published by a very small publishing um house called Meadow Suite and Moss, because my normal publisher wasn't massively interested in a children's book, um, but would have considered it if I'd have done a lot of writing about for parents and carers about how to use it. And I didn't want to do that really because that felt very prescriptive. Um I wanted something that was much more a children's book that children didn't have to get completely, and the parents and carers didn't have to get completely. Overwhelmed by grief and loss and thinking about death and dying and all of that, um, while at the same time the book very clearly being about you know trying to find the love that feels like it's gone but it hasn't. So I guess my final question really is what advice would you give to authors preparing to collaborate with an illustrator for the first time? What what what would have been really helpful for me or you to know before we embarked upon this process?

SPEAKER_01 22:38

It's quite hard to go back to a place before we started. Um I I think our experience in our process has actually been quite a smooth one, and I think that is mainly down to both of our um willingness to be completely open about I can't do that, I'll get bored doing that. That just I don't like the look of that. Um and and I think that's the um that's the thing really. It's about that openness to difference. I have a very particular style that I'm used to using a lot, and I think what I needed to do was go, well, actually, this is this is what I'm really comfortable doing, and this is the rest of the stuff that I could do, and just sort of so so an author who is able to look at something and just go from a gut reaction, I don't like the way that looks. I like the way that looks. And for the illustrator on the other side of that, not to take that person, you know, it's not it's not about you, it's about the work, it's about something on the page, and it's about something that connects with the message that the author wants to send. So I think clarity about the message that you're trying to convey, and um, and I think possibly there was a lot of questions that I had about the actual mechanics of, you know, how do you scan the pictures, what resolution do they need to be, what format, da da da. And that's um so depending on how you're doing your book, it's it's sort of knowing to give the author, the illustrator those guidelines. But I suppose that's because I'm a novice illustrator, book illustrator. You know, I'm not used to that whole publishing world. So I guess it depends who you work with. You probably there's probably illustrators out there that you know would tell the author exactly what they need.

Final Thanks And Listener Request

SPEAKER_00 24:40

Um yes, and so there's a trust thing, and actually, maybe because neither of us have had any idea what we were doing, um that really helped. Um, but I hope that those listening have really enjoyed learning a little bit more about the background of uh the book, and also if you're thinking about writing a children's book, just some of the process of doing that. And you're absolutely going to love the illustrations in this book. And I just want to say thank you so much, Fiona. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 25:18

It has been um a joy and a challenge. Um, and I'm so excited to um see Squirrel land in the world.

SPEAKER_00 25:27

You've been listening to the Trauma Resonance Resilience podcast with me, your host, Lisa Cherry, brought to you straight from the heart of the knowledge that high quality relationships are the cornerstone of learning, healing, and growing. If you've enjoyed this episode, please consider sharing or reviewing. Until next time.