Care-experience and Belonging; From Care To Courtroom With Lucy Kate Barnes

Join Dr Lisa Cherry in conversation with Lucy Kate Barnes as we talk about what it means to be openly care-experienced in public life and how we choose to tell our stories. This conversation was inspired by both Lucy and Lisa being nominated for different awards at the National Diversity Awards 2026. 

They reflect upon: 

• navigating how to speak about trauma without being defined by it 
• noticing how stigma shows up as pity and professional gatekeeping 
• reacting to National Diversity Awards nominations and why representation matters 
• thinking about legacy and what it means to have your work recognised 
• arguing for belonging beyond services
• the birth of Lawyers Who Care
• calling for deeper trauma understanding across the legal profession and beyond 

You can vote for Lisa HERE and you can vote for Lucy HERE! 

If you've enjoyed this episode, please consider sharing or reviewing. 

Transcript

Meeting Lucy Kate Barnes

SPEAKER_01 0:30

Well, today is a little bit unusual because, well, I all will be revealed, but let me just tell you that I'm with the very formidable. Can I say formidable? Thank you. That was not coming from you. The very formidable Lucy Kate Barnes, who is the founder of Lawyers Who Care. Hello, Lucy.

SPEAKER_00 0:54

Hello, Lisa. This is honestly an honour and a privilege. You're one of my biggest role models. So thank you so much for inviting me on to talk to you today. Lawyers Who Care has been my baby and my life work alongside being a barrister and a mum, another important role. My most important role, actually. So it's really lovely to speak to you as someone I look up to personally.

SPEAKER_01 1:19

Oh, well, it's it's so good to have you here. And um, you know, I'm a bit of a fan of yours as well. Because I tell you why. I tell you why. Because I just think that there are lots of amazing women, um far younger than I, who do really incredible things in terms of system change and culture change, particularly when the the root kind of entry into doing that work has been um various childhood traumas, adversities, but particularly the care experience and the women in this space are phenomenal and make my heart sing, and you are one of those.

Telling Trauma Without Being Defined

SPEAKER_00 2:05

Oh, thank you so much. That's really beautiful, and I completely agree. I think that there is something really powerful about the feminine care experience voice and the way that that it message is communicated. I think that um we do this whole process of actually before the story is out there, we think, how do I want to communicate the story? And for me, I'm not I'm pretty sure it's the same for you. That was a lot of work internally before I even felt able to share because I didn't want the world to see me as my traumas. I wanted the world to see me as the person who overcame them.

SPEAKER_01 2:42

Absolutely, and it's a journey to get to that point. I mean, it we we're of quite different generations, quite a big age gap between us, and I think it'd be fair to say that it's much easier now to talk about those experiences than it certainly was in my younger years. And in fact, I just didn't, I just didn't, you know, I just didn't talk about them. So that's another massive shift that I think has opened up the way and paved the way for people to be able to really think about, okay, well, what what do I want to do with this experience once I've been, while I'm in, knowing that it's ongoing, you know, the therapeutic process of healing and recovery, you know, where do I want to go when I've actually managed to work through some of this stuff?

SPEAKER_00 3:30

Absolutely. And I think that the stigmatization and being able to speak about it has changed face slightly. There's a lot of pity that I have experienced in my generation from my care experience, which is something I always call the backhand of prejudice, because it's looking down on you and saying, you're not my equal, um, rather than compassion, which is I sit with you as my equal, right? Um, and I experienced that in my journey to become a barrister, which is why for so long I did not speak about being care experienced, because the first time I did, the barrister I spoke to inferred I should choose a different career path. So that sent a message like this isn't safe to speak about for a long time. And that's why, exactly like you said, it had to be a journey because I learned very early on I had to be quite meticulous about the way I spoke about this, to invite people in rather than just leaving it out there for judgment.

SPEAKER_01 4:25

It's so interesting you say that actually, because that was my experience as well. But it's short work setting. Oh, and um and I've spoken to many other people who learnt the same really quickly that this is not safe

Stigma In Law And Backhanded Pity

SPEAKER_01 4:38

to talk about this. So I think we've come a really long way. Yes. And one of the reasons we're talking today really, I think, speaks to how far we've come and what it is that we you know we can bring into this whole area of system and culture change, you know, because we're both engaged in that in in different ways, in different settings. But that's what you know gets us out of bed in the morning. And the reason we're having a chat today, Lucy Kate Barnes, is because both of us found ourselves uh found ourselves to have been um nominated for the National Diversity Awards for different awards. And I just thought that was just so lovely when I saw that you'd been nominated as well. I just thought we've got to have a conversation about this because it's kind of important, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 5:32

Absolutely. I mean, it was very emotional and I was very shocked. Like I'm not, I think we've had a chat about this before, actually. I'm not really an awards-y person, you know, when it when it's not something that I feel aligned with, because I'm not really out there for the accolades, they don't move me in the same way. But for this, it's the given it's a national awards, and someone took the time to see it and think, Lucy Barnes, um, no, knowing you know how much hours putting into this and how important the the work is, because people don't see the behind the scenes stuff, right? They see the um the books uh or the the speaking or the writing, they see the they don't see the kind of 3 a.m. like um, you know, working behind the scenes what it takes to set up a charity is not easy whatsoever. I think put it bluntly. Um the mentees experience. So the fact that someone had thought, you know, I I'm thinking of you for this, the fact it's a national awards, and more to the point, seeing you nominated as well. It's like there's two care experienced people, and for representation, that is so important. And I'm not sure that we would have two openly and proud, openly care experienced women to emphasize that as well. Um, even a year ago. And it just that showed me that there is this huge change, not only being really emotional to have been nominated, and to whoever did that, thank you so much. That's honestly, it did make me cry. I'm a highly sensitive person, I'm proud to admit that. Um, but it's just powerful to say, look, we're care experience, we're proud. Um, and we are moved and motivated by that, and that's what, you know, like you say, wakes us up in the morning. So I thought it was lovely.

SPEAKER_01 7:14

I'm actually feeling quite emotional while you're talking, you know. And um, I always you so you don't know who nominated you. So I'm really glad because um, like you, I'm not an awardsy person, and in fact, I've not acknowledged um nominations in the past for various things because it just doesn't make me feel comfortable. I don't really, you know, I'm prolific enough putting content out without sort of also banging on about those kind of things. So it just um doesn't really work for me, but I was very fortunate because the person who did nominate me warned me that she had, and I was so really said, I hope you don't mind.

SPEAKER_00 7:56

Oh, that's really lovely. I have a I have a I I I have a a broad suspicion.

National Diversity Awards And Visibility

SPEAKER_00 8:04

Yeah, so but it is lovely. Um how did you feel when she when she said that?

SPEAKER_01 8:08

Oh god, I was absolutely blown away. I mean so what what you've been nominated for role positive role model, haven't you? Yeah. So and again, I don't mean to keep going on about age, but I'm so old that I've been nominated for the Lifetime Achievement Award. So that in itself just was so emotional and so moving. And anyone who's connected to me will know that you know, my life, I do have a l a life limiting illness. So um to be for someone to think this is the perfect opportunity to really celebrate a lifetime's work is moving on a much deeper level uh in that sense because it's a a real nod to legacy, isn't it? It's a nod to what you're leaving behind, it's a nod to what it is that you you know, what you've managed to touch in your lifetime. God, it's making me emotional now.

SPEAKER_00 9:11

Oh, bless you. But what can I just add to that? Like you you are the perfect person to win that award and to be nominated because you have just dedicated your life service to giving and changing perceptions. And you know, I I can't imagine how hard it was to talk about these things, you know, uh a while ago when it was like care experience wasn't even a term, it was looked after child, care leaver, you know, there was it it was a it was a tough work, like we wouldn't even have that community term, care experience. You know, you've been part of inventing that and and inviting other people in. I mean, I I strongly doubt that if you weren't here, where would would the would it would we be I would would I feel so proud saying I'm care experienced, you know, is the question I'm thinking. And I don't think I would, because as well as a woman showing up saying, I'm proud, and I'm dedicating my whole life to this because I'm proud, and I want to educate others in a healthy way, not in a um passive, aggressive, or even broad more aggressive way, but saying, Let's invite you into this space rather than blaming you for your lack of knowledge, you know, I don't think I would have been so confident. So it's people that pave the way first. Those are the people that should be getting the lifetime achiever award and that recognition, um, and that and and that sort of um understanding that what your work and what you've committed to is so important.

SPEAKER_01 10:36

That's so beautiful to hear that. And you know, I too stand on the shoulders of giants, you know, and that's that's always the thing, isn't it? You know, that there's always the people who came before us. And there was so I think there were just so many people came out of the 70s and 80s, um, having been through those you know, what can only be described of um as really quite horrific uh experiences, um, who for whatever reason, because of course I'm sure the 60s, the 50s, the whatever were were all pretty hideous as well, but for whatever reason, there was a much more kind of collective um uh response, and also lots of people individually just saying, actually, this isn't okay. Yeah, you know, this is this is not good. And actually, people don't know about care. People don't even know that there are these children, that there are children living um in these uh these environments and these experiences, and so that was definitely you know a driver for me. Yes, um, while at the same time being very protective of my own self in that context, um, and also in an era when we didn't have social media, we weren't on podcasts, we weren't in groups, we weren't, you know, t tweeting, and I'm referring obviously to old Twitter that I miss with all my heart. Yeah, um, you know, we weren't doing that. It it just wasn't it just wasn't a thing, and there was so much stigma. And and I, you know, I'd love to say, oh, and it's great because we don't have stigma anymore.

SPEAKER_00 12:17

Yeah, no, no, it definitely is live in kicking, it's just a different face, I feel. Oh, definitely. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:24

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh there's definitely, you know, stigmatization goes on, and we live in very divisive times, which really supports um requires that there is stigmatization of a whole range of people. Absolutely. So, yes, I was very, very blessed um to be um nominated, and yes, I did cry, and yes, I did feel very, very emotional. Um, but once I'd kind of recovered from that, I thought, you know what? Actually, as you say, somebody took the time to do that. So now it what's really important is that I take the time to tell people and give them the opportunity to vote if they want to. And that's one of the reasons why we're talking today.

SPEAKER_00 13:12

Absolutely. And it's like it's so difficult, isn't it? Because like I don't like the on the one hand, I feel uncomfortable asking people to vote for me, genuinely. On the other, I'm thinking of 16-year-old me who honestly felt so confused in the world. I fell off the care cliff at 16. That was where all support for me stopped. I was so isolated, so alone. And if I'd look, you know, looked and seen on an on a national awards that someone who has had a similar, although we've all got different care experience, but similar path to me, had taken ownership of it and said proudly, like you have, like I have, um, you know, we're not just um in our field worthy of recognition, but we're leaders. That would have meant so much, and getting recognition as leadership, and that's what I see care experienced people are when that potential is nurtured. That would have meant so much to my younger self. So that's why I'm I'm I'm feeling like every time I cringe and shudder at the thought of asking someone to vote. I think of the 16-year-old me, and I think of why representation matters. And I don't know if you feel the same way, but um it is it is a difficult one to to for me to do. But I'm pushing myself out of my comfort zone massively um because it's so important.

SPEAKER_01 14:35

Yeah. I mean, I think asking, you know, I think it's it's less for me about asking um people, but more saying, you know, if I've touched you in any way over the last 40 years or whatever it's been, um then um then

Legacy Work And Lifetime Recognition

SPEAKER_01 14:55

it would be lovely. It would be lovely to have that work recognised. But of course, while you were talking about your 16-year-old self, of course, who popped into my head, my 16-year-old self. And you know, I'm quite I'm disturbed to hear that that you all support ended for you at 16 because the difference between what you will have had and what I will have had is is a lot of legislation that just didn't exist back then. So it was very much the case that um you know, when when care was finished, that was it. It was it was finished. And um, you know, you had a little I mean I don't really talk about this stuff very much, I have to say, but you know, you had um I was homeless. I mean, that's the bottom line. Um the journey, the journey from care really went to homelessness. Uh, and and so little was understood then about support. And and we both do system change in very different ways. You know, for me, what I'm interested in is making sure that the adults around the children are absolutely at their best to be able to um ensure that there is um lots of different bits of understanding that really make a difference. One is around the legacy of trauma, and the other, more specifically, is very much around uh the relationships that are required for us to function in the world. And that has very much uh not really been at the forefront of the imagination a little bit in the review that took place. Um, but systemically, are we really thinking about if we do supply you with somewhere to live, do you have people to invite round for tea? You know, are we actually engaged in that process of embedding people into communities beyond services? Whereas your work, you're very much working with um young, care-experienced people, and also I imagine some who are still very much in care in in supporting them to have um aspirations that perhaps may not have been made available to them. Is that is that is that a good way of summarising where you're coming from?

SPEAKER_00 17:15

Absolutely. Um, and the kind of system change in I I use the phrase for lawyers speaking the language of care experience, because what I realized, which was really profound to me in setting up lawyers who care, is actually people, like you said earlier, just have no idea what it would be like to go through the care system and to leave the care system, although it never really leaves you, but you know what I mean to go through that experience. So inviting them into that compassion for the understanding of care experience. And I would love to see um not just on the you know young people and raising their aspirations, I want to see care experience judges. Everyone knows that. Um, but beyond that, I want I want lawyers and um all professionals to start understanding behind our eyes. I really want that that trauma, speaking the language of trauma fully, not in this kind of I understand trauma, you know, a buzzwordy sense, unfortunately. In the deeper, I understand what trauma is, exactly your like what your life work has has um been so influential in, and understanding that care, you know, making it like normalizing care experience, if I may use that term, and and and making it less taboo. Um, so that's kind of what I'm trying to do within the legal profession, also. Um, and also, you know, as you were just saying about creating, you know, it's not enough to give someone a house if they've got no one to, you know, invite over. And I love your title, Weaving a Web of Belonging. Isn't that right, isn't it? I didn't want to misproof it. Yes, exactly. And that is so beautiful because what I've found with Lawyers Who Care is, you know, it's not enough to break the barriers down. You've got to have a sense of actually, this industry is very different, it's very highly dominated by people from private school, um, Oxbridge. And if you do not come from that background, you can feel like an alien. I certainly did, which is why I knew I needed to set up Lawyers Who Care. Um, so it's fostering a sense of I fit in here just as I am, and I don't have to be ashamed. Um, so it's kind of twofold in that sense, sort of changing the minds of professionals, actually making the opportunities. So, you know, two-year-long mentoring program. Um, we're also partnering with law firms to have, you know, apprenticeships for care experienced people and like you know, showing that you know it's the opportunities in tandem with making them feel like they belong in the profession because they do, and everybody should.

SPEAKER_01 19:43

Yeah, I love that. So, do you have any final words? Um, and this is the bit where now I don't do

The Care Cliff And Homelessness

SPEAKER_01 19:52

you know what comes to my mind when I think about this. So, first of all, MPs begging to be voted for, and then that little bit at the end of Strictly, you know that bit at the end of Strictly. I don't watch Strictly. No, I I don't want anyone thinking I'm spending my time watching Strictly, but I have watched Strictly. Um, and there's a bit where they they kind of do this really uncomfortable vote for me, vote for me. We're not going to do that. Are you sure that'd be funny? Do you think so? Listen, you do you, right? If that's something you want to roll, honestly, I think that could work. Go for it.

SPEAKER_00 20:31

No, um, I just want to conclude on saying vote for Lisa. Like, I I know, honestly, because even you know, just getting shortlisted, just being in that room, like I would, I would, I would love to see that. I would love to see that as representative because even the categories for, I don't know what it was like for the lifetime achiever, but it was like um for role model, it was it was age. There's no like distinct sort of care experience and care like care lever. There's nothing that says I'm visible in this space specifically. Um, so you know, even showing actually it's it's the care experience, like just having that in the room and appreciating your work because you're a titan, Lisa, and I feel like that should be recognized both for our community um and also just because of how much you give. And I'm sure all in all of what you've written and you know, spoken about like the the the grit and the hard work and the voluntary hours, I'm sure no one sees that, but I can just I know because I I've done a similar thing with the pro bono work, um, you know, it it's it's a calling. So um, yeah, vote for Lisa and um make sure that care experience is is visible and appreciated and seen.

SPEAKER_01 21:48

So, first of all, you're very beautiful, human. And um I would really like to be shortlisted too, for that just if we could just both be shortlisted. And then we can go have dinner at Liverpool.

SPEAKER_00 22:02

And have a fancy dress. I don't do that very often.

SPEAKER_01 22:05

Nor do I. We should totally go shopping if that happens. Yes. So lovely. So yeah, I think please vote for Lucy.

Belonging Beyond Services And Housing

SPEAKER_01 22:15

And just you know, find out a bit more about Lucy's work as well because it's incredible what you're doing. The longevity and the sustainability of the piece of work that you're engaged in is brings us straight back around to thinking about legacy and you being uh the giants that's um you know that sit on the shoulders of the next generation that come, and that's such a beautiful thing. So thank you so much for speaking to me today. And I will put both of our um voting links into the show notes um for the listener. So thank you.

SPEAKER_00 22:58

Thank you so much. Honestly, it's an honour.

SPEAKER_01 23:00

You've been listening to the Trauma Resonance Resilience podcast with me, your host, Lisa Cherry, brought to you straight from the heart of the knowledge that high quality relationships are the cornerstone of learning, healing, and growing. If you've enjoyed this episode, please consider sharing or reviewing. Until next time.