Series 8, Episode 3, Graham Chatterley on Stigma & SEND Support

Join Dr Lisa Cherry in conversation with Graham Chatterley, educator and parent on how stigma shows up in SEND, from school labels to healthcare dismissal and what it costs families when professionals assume the worst. We explore trauma, regulation and how to rebuild trust so parents and services can genuinely work as a team around the child.

We explore: 

• Graeme’s journey from traditional behaviour management to trauma-informed education and SEND understanding
• How autism traits can be masked by fight or flight until a child feels emotionally safe
• The impact of labels such as EBD and how stigma shapes staff expectations
• Parent stigma in health and social care meetings, including being talked over or dismissed
• Why exhaustion and grief can look like “unreasonable” behaviour in parents
• Empathy versus sympathy and why performative empathy breaks connection
• Isolation, loss of support networks and the pull of social media validation
• Practical meeting skills: regulate first, slow down, make space to think
• System issues: austerity, funding disputes and the need for real multidisciplinary teamwork

Transcript

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Welcome And Series Context

SPEAKER_00 0:03

This is the Trauma Resonance Resilience Podcast. This is for you if you are interested in compassion, connection, and relationships and how we can all work together creating services that do not add to harm but rather seek to support recovery from it. I'm your host, Lisa Cherry, and this is your time to sit back and listen in on conversations that make a difference. Here we are again with our series on stigma. And there are two other series that you might be interested in. One of them is on liminality and one is on trauma-informed responsive dilution, the dilution of trauma-informed practice. And I think if you're really enjoying these series, then please leave messages. Please give me some feedback. It'd be really good to know. It's so good to be able to go into things in depth and be able to really explore a subject. And this series has been all about stigma and stigmatization. And today I'm joined by Graeme Chatterley, who has been in education since 2002, long background in history, working in primary, secondary, and special education as a senior leader, and in recent years has set up his own training company to support all of those in education to increase empathy and understanding to classrooms everywhere. Hello, Graeme.

SPEAKER_01 1:41

Good morning. Lovely to be here.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

It's really good to have you. And one of the reasons that we're having this conversation about stigma is to think about education but also your experience as a parent. And it's with that lens that we're going to be exploring that. Do you want to tell me a bit about that?

SPEAKER_01 2:02

Yeah,

Daniel’s Needs And Care Journey

SPEAKER_01 2:03

I predominantly will be talking about Daniel, who's my youngest, uh, who's 14. Uh, we've had quite a couple of years with Daniel, but he's got a lot of uh different diagnoses, sorism, ADHD, uh sensory processing, epilepsy, hypermobility, postural scoliosis. Probably a few have missed off there. Um now, Daniel has always been in special education and and and things, um, non-verbal, um, still doubly incontinent. Uh, and he has in the last, but it was about it was probably about three years ago, now went went into care after hurting his hurting his mum with a lot of physical um things to to deal with. Uh that really didn't work out and he nearly died and he had to come home. But we've now had him home with promises of full care packages and things like that, um, but we haven't actually had any respite for uh for 18 months now. So there are lots of lots of meetings and promises and things like that that haven't come to fruition. Things I'll talk about regarding how we've been received by medical professionals and and things like that across the course of of this morning, I would imagine. Also had a few experiences with my uh my my 17-year-old who is very different in his his send needs, he's he managed through mainstream really well, but obviously we had a bit of a roller coaster at times with getting the right support for him and whether we should get the diagnosis and things like that in in those there. So um, so yeah, so we'll we'll talk about all those things, I would imagine.

SPEAKER_00 3:49

And I'm guessing, with somebody who's been in education a long time, that there's the Graham before those experiences and the Graham after those experiences. And I'm wondering how that has impacted, those experiences have impacted, because we know that there's so much complexity around education and special educational needs. So I'm really curious about what that journey's been like.

SPEAKER_01 4:18

I think

From Behaviourism To Trauma Lens

SPEAKER_01 4:19

it's changed me completely. Um, and not just that as well, you know, when I started as a primary teacher, I was quite traditional in my thinking. You know, I'd had been very lucky with my upbringing and and stuff. I went to university and had the behaviourist initial teacher education training. I I went into schools thinking I needed to be this authority figure, and it just didn't connect me to the children at all. I very nearly left the profession. I I then I I'd trained primary and secondary, so I thought before I give it up completely, I will I will try secondary, and I was much better at that, mainly because I was I think I was teaching PE, but not because it was a subject, more the interactions with the children, and they got to see my personality a little bit and I relaxed a little bit and stuff, and then I was doing much better, but then I I sort of stumbled into what was EBD or naughty boys at the time, and that is a real learning curve, and it's a very it's a very basic premise when I started in 2005, I think it was. As long as your relationships were good and your boundaries were firm, that was kind of all you really needed. And I was bl blissfully unaware that so many of those young people that we had were autistic young people.

SPEAKER_00 5:42

Who had that dreadful label that you've just brought back into the room to remind everybody that you know these labels change over time, and that label EBD, emotional, emotionally behavioural disordered, was a term that was used with abandon, really, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_01 6:03

Well, yeah, absolutely. And uh and you know, they were they were naughty boys. That's that's how they were they were they were labelled. And and again, it seemed looking back, the the fact that you could get a job in a special school with with absolutely no training on send or or anything on trauma. See, it's it's looking back, it's absolutely madness. But but that but that was the case, and you kind of learn it as you go, and working with absolutely brilliant people, and some not brilliant people, but but you do you you get you you sort of get the hang of it and stuff. But you know, I was I was doing that, and then I sort of I got into the pastoral side around about the same time as as as we were making the move to social emotional mental health, which meant there was more training there, and I had some training from the absolutely fabulous Lisa Wisher at Ultringham University, who introduced me to to Bruce Perry and things like that, and that that was me down the rabbit hole, and I was doing really well with the trauma side of things, but then in my personal life, I was starting to take the autism journey big time uh in that and those experiences all of a sudden then I started to see the autism autism that was in the um in the SEMH setting. And if I look back now, there were some young people who I managed incredibly badly, and I think it's I think it's really important that we do reflect on stuff like that. Um but it wasn't through, you know, it's through frustration really because I couldn't get through to them. But I I look at how, you know, I I I would maybe not give the children enough space because that was what was needed at the time, and I didn't reckon I thought I could break through, but I I actually need to set back and things like that. And and it and those life experiences that I've got at home and how you managed the conversations and how you see the the different things around sensory and thing that that you realise just how much there is in mainstream settings as well, um, but certainly in the special, and I I was doing outreach and I'd go and and and the number of young people that would come to us with a diagnosis of ADHD and then you create a place of emotional safety. And again, was it ADHD or was it trauma? That's another another question that that that that we would be asking. But once you made that environment emotionally safe and calmed that young person's nervous system down, all of a sudden they're all the autistic behaviours start to come to the surface, and they've all been missed because they've just been masked by fight and flight all the time. So, you know, that that is something that I think certainly SMH settings will be seeing up and down the country, but also, you know, I do a lot of I've spent a lot of time in early years and things like that, and you'll see in these extreme behaviours, but the extreme behaviours are the armour that the child's wearing to hide a lot of the other things that are going on. And a lot of those young people at the moment who are being diagnosed with autism and ADHD, we need to look at trauma, executive functioning, things like that first before we start giving out those those things. But you know, and and and it's a bit of a bottleneck system at the moment for me, in in that still children aren't getting the right support in the right places.

SPEAKER_00 9:34

I mean, we've sort of touched there really on stigma and labels and what certain labels evoke in people, what they're thinking about.

When Stigma Enters The Room

SPEAKER_00 9:48

And I guess my first question really then is when did you first notice stigma shaping how other people responded to your child, but also when did you first become aware of it in school? So I'm gonna bounce around a little bit between your kind of education background but also your parent background because they really are working together.

SPEAKER_01 10:14

I think if I'm honest about personally, I think my wife has had far more stigma than I've had, to the point where sh she actually had uh a pediatrician accuse her of being one chowsey's by proxy, which obviously is something that's been difficult to manage. I I don't know whether it's because of my experiences as a a school leader, you know, I would have been the person in all those child protection conferences and things like that, the the children need meetings. So I I have a slight advantage there. I think Eve also is very different to me in that you know she's just got her own diagnosis of ADHD, um, better late than never. But we'll get railroaded by professionals in meetings when they're, you know, that they will they will talk, then she won't have time to think and she'll get overwhelmed. Now, where I'm very good in those meetings is I will listen and then respond or be able to articulate what I'm doing, and then Eve will just mic drop in the background because she's had time to think and then come in. So we're much better when we're together. And I think we have had a lot of situations where professionals might try to isolate one of us because they know that when we're together we're much stronger in terms of getting our point across and challenging things along those lines.

SPEAKER_00 11:44

But do you think that's a deliberate thing? You have felt that as a deliberate act.

SPEAKER_01 11:49

In some cases, definitely. Definitely that has happened. Um and and we're in a we're in a strong position now. Um, we've got a fantastic social worker now, medical professionals have stopped fighting us now. You know, the the fights now are not about what's needed, the fights now are about providing what's needed and money and all those different things. But, you know, just as an example, you know, Daniel was having absences for years. We argued, he've argued non-stop about the fact that he's having absences. We got school doing a a tally chart and recording, and no doctor would diagnose him as epileptic because the tool to diagnose epilepsy is the is it EKG with the the ECG, one or the others with the the things they stick to your head. Now, sensory-wise, he's not going to tolerate that. So when you put the things on his head, he then becomes very heightened, and he's not going to have an absence whilst he's very heightened. So they kept dismissing it until he had a grandmal seizure and nearly died. And it took a grandmal seizure and a respirator and intensive care for them to actually diagnose him as autistic. And, you know, we'd fought that for years and battled and just been dismissed and ignored, and that was incredibly frustrating. But you have that experience, and then because they know they've messed up, you're then in a position where they will then listen and stuff, but it shouldn't, it shouldn't come to because they're panicking, then you're gonna sue them or whatever it is that that's gone. Um, you know, the the Daniel's needs and stuff. I I suspect that Daniel would have had, you know, some autism or or ADHD or something like that. But the reason it's as significant as it is, I believe, is because of what happened when he was when he was a baby. And we Eve knew something was wrong with him. You know, that mother's instinct that exists, and she she knew something wasn't right. He was he was really off colour, uh, he was very lethargic, and she we took him to the doctors on the Saturday and they sent her sent us away, said he was just he was just just had a fever a fever or whatever. We went and we took him back on the Tuesday, and again, you know, the doctor implied that she was a fussy mum, and we were sent away again. Uh, and then on the Thursday he he stopped breathing, and it turns out that he had hooping cough and flu at the same time, and he he's he he'd been a premature baby, he couldn't handle both.

SPEAKER_00 14:28

It's so frustrating because GPs are general practitioners, right? Specialists in anything they are generally not. But whooping cough and flu would come under that kind of general umbrella.

SPEAKER_01 14:43

Well well the problem was that because he because he was a premature baby and and he had the flu and he he was too weak to cough properly, so they missed the hooping cough, and that's what happened. But again, had they not looked um and and sort of in stigma-wise looked at and decided fussy mum, they'd have they'd have explored more, I'm com I'm quite confident of it.

SPEAKER_00 15:10

We see these layers of of stigma, don't we?

SPEAKER_01 15:13

Yeah, it's that perception. I think we've always seen similar things with in schools, with siblings, you know, the younger brother gets the reputation of the older brother and things like and I think if we've got parents who have got more than one child that's got some complex needs or something like that, I think I think it's it's it's difficult not to judge the child by the previous child, but also judge the parent. And uh but we know that these things run in families and you know the inherited genes and things like that. So if you have got one child that's got quite significant, then there's a good chance that the others will have something similar as well. So it's it I think that's certainly something that isn't as widely known as it should be in education circles.

SPEAKER_00 16:03

Well, it's much it's much nicer, I think, for people to decide that the problem's in the person, which is something I talk about all the time. If you problematise the person, then we don't have to answer any questions, we don't have to have any conversations about anything, you know, and it's the same with families, and you're absolutely right. I mean, those staff room conversations of, oh, I I taught the mum, that family, oh my god, you know, and those kind of things really linger, don't they? Especially in in smaller communities, I think.

SPEAKER_01 16:37

When what

Grief Anger And Empathy For Parents

SPEAKER_01 16:38

happened in care happened with with Daniel and he he came home, uh, and and then you know, we wear that anger, don't we, to hide what we're really feeling and stuff. But I was absolutely raging at that point in time. And I was gonna open a school and I was gonna have residential, I was gonna have this and I was gonna do that. And and unless somebody's got a couple of million quid to give me, I'm not gonna do any of those things. But so how could I how could I channel that to stop it happening and help and things like that? So I I put a course together helping schools to understand the parents better. And it and it kind of it came about from I was doing a I was doing a trauma-informed, which is how we met really, uh, you know, I was doing a a trauma-informed training, but in a specialist residential setting. And whilst I didn't have the background in trauma that that other people might have, because I could answer the questions that were going to come from that kind of setting, it it kind of worked worked really well. And what I found in those settings was the incredible levels of empathy that those staff had for the children, and and it was unbelievable, but the just complete lack of empathy that they had for the parents of those children. And a lot of those training sessions sort of evolved, and and and there'd be a section where we spent some time looking at you know what are the parental experiences that that were had there. And again, you know, the things like the Welcome to Holland video, which which some people find difficult to watch and things, but actually resonates really, really well with me and the journey that we go on, the anger that we have, that we directed each other when we we get the diagnosis or or or things like that, or the realization, then you've got the denial, then you've got the the bargaining, then you you know, and it is that kind of grief process, but not because your child's died, but because everything that you were going to have has now gone, you know, the you're not taking them to uni, you're not taking them to football training. So you've got a new normal you've got to get used to. And it and it's a process that takes time for those adults to to get to. And if in the process of being in an angry phase or a denial phase or something like that, we have meetings with professionals and meetings with schools and things like that, that that adult might not come across perfectly at that moment in time. And they might be short-fused and they might be tired. And and I think it's it's being used as a stick to beat parents with sometimes. And I think the the standards that we have of of of adult context, you know, we're expecting rundown, burnt-out parents to to behave like professional teachers or or or social. I think that's spectacularly unfair uh in in many cases.

SPEAKER_00 19:31

I love that you've brought that up because that's something that's very much in the kind of the social care space, the social work space, particularly around birth mothers, for example, but also there's so much language in that area that's very very focused on parent blaming, uh mother shaming actually, uh, and you've already spoken to that. And I think any work that can be done because let's face it at the end of the day, if you, the parent, are looked after and nurtured, you can do that work better of looking after your family, in whatever context that is, and that's something that just isn't really always understood.

Isolation Social Media And Blame

SPEAKER_01 20:24

Parents only know what they know, you know, and again, we're in a world now where they're more isolated, you know, we're connected by social media, but we're more isolated. And if you if you again put put a put a send label onto that, you you're talking about 85% will be ended marriages, you know, and so there'll be a lot of single parents there, they haven't got a support network. You've got parents who are further away from grandparents than there have ever been in history and things like that. You've got friendship networks that just dissolve those that you know, the social thinning aspect of it is absolutely enormous. And again, that's nobody's fault. That's just that's just people not knowing what to say. That you know, if I if I look at uh uh uh how many of our friends that we have now did we have before Daniel was born, the answer is none. You know, we have you know, they're still on Facebook, but they're not we we we wouldn't spend any time. But just because people didn't know what to say, they were inviting us out, we couldn't go, and it you just drift apart, and you know, people telling you it's it's just a phase or it's gonna get better, or you know, again that things and again we're as we're as bad, you know, people because people are trying to help, they're trying to support, but they're just they're just saying the wrong thing, and and again, it's the empathy sympathy thing, the Brennan Brown stuff, things like that. It just drives a wedge and stuff. So you end up really isolated and and things in those situations. And it's it's just within trying to survive, people will have a opinion on on how how you should be looking after your child and everybody has their own different opinions and stuff and and things and and and things like nutrition, things like screen time, you know we we're we're in a position now where technology has has come on at such a rapid rate at the same time as we've had austerity and we've got no health visitors and stuff. So so we're expecting parents to manage this minefield of iPads and phones and instant gratification and and all of those different things. But we're not actually giving the information to help them to to do it. And then that child goes to school and they're they've spent too much time sat still and and not interacting and you know they they can't self-soothe because you know they've been occupied by a device or something like that. They they they're struggling to regulate their emotions because they they haven't necessarily had the emotional validation that they had. But then you look at to point fingers at at home and things but then that parent didn't have emotional validation from their parents so they so how'd you do something that you've never been taught to do yourself and things like that. So it's it's so easy to point fingers and we've got massive issues around executive functioning and again a lot of people you know so many educators I work with and I I include myself in it you know I've only really understood executive functioning in the last three years. You know I thought it was all about organisation skills and there's so much more to it than that.

SPEAKER_00 23:37

And it's difficult isn't it because how much can you possibly learn in initial teacher training and in your first few

Power Meetings And Regulation

SPEAKER_00 23:46

years? I mean it's a journey but you spoke to something else that that sort of made me give a little nod which was because I've been very poorly and I've I I have cancer and when I was very poorly and on a lot of drugs I'm not my best self. And I think often in that medical setting I dealt with people who thought that's who I was and I found that really challenging and you were talking about that in terms of being exhausted being tired not having had a break not being able to go to the gym not being able to meet your basic needs for a long period of time is going to leave you fazzled, short and sharp. And it was a bit like that having you know being on lots of drugs and being made to feel like a patient. I mean I hated it and I still have to go to the hospital once a month and have my treatment but and I guess it's it's that sort of thing isn't it how do we how do we ensure that we have services that don't have that inherent stigma in it when people have to almost go on a journey themselves or do they?

SPEAKER_01 25:01

Well I mean the biggest learning curve for me is to be having having had many years of being the professional in the room to now very often be the parent in the room and I'm dad and and and I know a lot of people and I think it is an important fact you know I have a name and things like that but I actually don't I don't mind being referred to as dad because I am dad that's I'm I'm in there as a role of dad. But again that might be because I've been listened to elsewhere and and stuff previously but it really frustrates me when I'm in those meetings and I have less power as as dad than I do as headteacher, as pastoral lead as yeah and that took me a a lot of time to get my head around in those situations. But you you know as well as anybody you know when when you are talking about your own children for a start you're automatically more emotional and it's impossible not to be um so you've also always got that that factor. The parents that we're talking about likelihood is that their previous experiences have not been good and the amount of battling and fighting and all those things and probably stigma and judgment and things like that as well so you go in to any of those situations automatically heightened emotional and then because you're heightened and emotional you then you know you you run those previous experiences through your inner networks and all those different things and then if you throw in things like latent vulnerability and you throw in things like you know negative experiences being more salient and all that you are on your guard and you are defensive and sometimes the best form of defence is attack and that's what we see when we have parents come flying up the drive and thing now big part of what I will always say to schools is that's not the time to have any kind of conversation well actually some do and that's part of the learning curve but you've got to get that young person regulated before you start to talk to a young person about anything. You've got to do exactly the same with the parents give them a smile sitting down give them a cup of tea give them five minutes then have a conversation you know and and we we tend to to get into this where we try and rush everything which again is down to time but it all blows up and then that parent is unreasonable and then we can't talk to that parent and they're not allowed on site and and actually everybody wants the right things for the young person. Everybody wants to work together the ideas might be different but how we get that message across is not always brilliant. But that's just human we can't take the human factor out of those interactions that we have about children, you know, especially when things have gone wrong. And the problem is that social media is involved in that and that's causing further problems and a further wedge because what's happening is that parent is not getting the validation that they need from the adults in the in the school in the doctors whoever it is who's not listening to them and I can absolutely relate to not feeling listened to and if you're not being validated and listened to by those people who are who know your child then you go looking elsewhere and there are plenty of Facebook groups and there are plenty of WhatsApps and things like that where you know you might well get somebody to validate what you're feeling but you're very vulnerable to being manipulated because somebody's got an axe to grind or something like that.

SPEAKER_00 28:41

And you know Or with cancer you get the mushroom people.

SPEAKER_02 28:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:46

You know you just need to rub the juice of mushrooms on the bottom of your feet and then that'll be the end of your cancer.

SPEAKER_02 28:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:53

They're everywhere.

SPEAKER_01 28:56

Yeah well do you you know we we're still still hearing about autism cures and all sorts of stuff aren't we?

SPEAKER_00 29:03

Yeah I'm sure you navigate the same sort of man. But but what I'd like to ask you just as we come to a close is what I mean look this is not top tip territory right none of the spaces I work in are top tip territory but I always think if you're going to do a podcast or you're gonna do a keynote I think people want some top stuff.

Three Changes That Reduce Stigma

SPEAKER_00 29:25

So I'm gonna ask you you know what would be your top I don't know top three things that you think would make such a difference in terms of how we can reduce stigmatization and really shift the dialogue we need a default position of as professionals is seeing the best.

SPEAKER_01 29:44

It's seeing the parents as doing their best I think it's very easy to assume the worst and if we assume the worst then our our mindset you know it's a bit like again there's so many crossovers with children and behaviour and stuff if you're if your default position is they're choosing to misbehave they're choosing to to be naughty rather than what's behind this behaviour what they're trying to communicate and and the same thing happens with with with the parents so that would be my my my most important thing I I think we've got to get better at the listening and again I mentioned before you know going back to the Brene Brown stuff empathy builds connection sympathy drives disconnection absolutely and you know being on the receiving end of a lot of sympathy and stuff but but I kind of understand that and I'm alright with that what really upsets me and will disconnect me is performative empathy. People who are pretending to listen but they're not listening to hear they're listening to respond and and that again is it's that lip service that that you get can can be very very challenging and that will just disconnect massively in those um those situations the biggest one is is it I we need to go back to where we were a decade or so ago and and a decade or so ago those rooms those meetings you know those child in need meetings our child protection conferences things things like that multidisciplinary teams etc they were a team of people around a child all pulling together to do what was the best thing for the for the child and and what's happened certainly since austerity but I think ever since Michael Gove and things like that is that it's everybody's now priority is is covering their own backside and it's how to sund that you're gonna need to fund that and you're gonna need to do and and it's book passing and I'm not sure we can blame Gove for everything.

SPEAKER_00 31:51

No no no we can certainly we can certainly he has an accountability to what he did to education.

SPEAKER_01 31:58

It started a ball rolling in a different direction um and maybe it's unfair to blame him but certainly you know Oh he has a he has something to be accountable for for sure. When I was in those those meetings ten years ago it we were it was a team around the child meeting it didn't it wasn't necessarily called that but it was a case of right what can I do what can I do what can I do and now it's a what what can you do? What do you need to do what and everybody's pushing it on on everybody else you know we've got a situation with with you know to to fund the care package in the home now you know because it's part health and part social services it's just getting to breed is an item you know and and this and this is the problem that we have with Daniel and I I and I'm I'm I've been told he's he's the most complex child in Lancashire not because he's got the most extreme behavioural needs or not because he's got the most extreme medical needs but because he's got the biggest combination of the two it just means so many more professionals are involved and the more professionals that are involved the harder it becomes to draw everybody together and that that's that's again part of the the massive battles that we're that we're we're having so yeah I think I think I think everybody pulling together again needs to be what what we need to see.

SPEAKER_00 33:25

That's

Slowing Down And Closing Thoughts

SPEAKER_00 33:26

great. Thank you so much and for transparency for the uh people listening you're absolutely exhausted and I'm not having a good health day today and we've still managed to pull this together with a few more ums and R's than maybe we'd want to have in there but I think you know it's important to say that you know and be be authentic about that because I know that you're really really tired.

SPEAKER_01 33:52

But I do but I do think you know thing things like ums and Rs and and and and you know's and it it makes it more clear that people are actually thinking whilst they're speaking and stuff and I think I think sometimes it can be a bit too rehearsed. Uh then you know again there's nothing slick about my podcast Graham I can tell you this this again is something that that that transpires in meetings and things like that is is actually allow the parents the time to think about their what they're gonna say. You know you we as professionals we've we've planned the meeting and things like that and we've we've we we we know what we and everything's rushed all the time but actually it needs to have a an or organic flow to it that actually means that people have to redirect the thinking and and have a bit of time to to pause and stuff. So you know I think I think those things are are important and I think we we we we pressurize in meetings as well which is a separate point because we you know we've got to get on to the next one that that parent hasn't got to get on to the next one. This is their child this is the centre of everything in their universe they don't want to feel rushed through so you can get to the next meeting and stuff and and again it you know you can you can have that dialogue where that parent will understand that you've got other places to be and other things to do if you have that dialogue and and are open about those things but just trying to rush through a meeting you just feel not listened to and and again that's not going to help matters.

SPEAKER_00 35:35

So there's there's all of those things that I think I think again we we we strive for perfectionism sometimes and and perfect doesn't exist in these in these we can we must celebrate the ums and the ahs I shall hold on to that and I always want this podcast to really feel very much like a conversation not some kind of slick event and I think I pull it off I think I pull it off. So listen thank you so much for taking some time out of your day Graham and um and joining me on the podcast. Thank you. Very welcome you've been listening to the Trauma Resonance Resilience podcast with me, your host Lisa Cherry brought to you straight from the heart of the knowledge that high quality relationships are the cornerstone of learning, healing and growing if you've enjoyed this episode please consider sharing or reviewing. Until next time