Today's SWAPA Number is 92.7. That's the percentage of pilots that voted to make the Tentative Agreement between SWAPA and Southwest Airlines, a Collective Bargaining Agreement, in the vote that closed last week. On today's podcast, we're talking with SWAPA president, Captain Casey Murray and SWAPA VP, Captain Tom Nekouei, about what comes next for SWAPA and its members in a post contract 2024.
If you have any feedback for us at all, please drop us a line at comm@swapa.org
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Today's SWAPA Number is 92.7. That's the percentage of pilots that voted to make the Tentative Agreement between SWAPA and Southwest Airlines, a Collective Bargaining Agreement, in the vote that closed last week. On today's podcast, we're talking with SWAPA president, Captain Casey Murray and SWAPA VP, Captain Tom Nekouei, about what comes next for SWAPA and its members in a post contract 2024.
If you have any feedback for us at all, please drop us a line at comm@swapa.org
Follow us online:
Twitter - https://twitter.com/swapapilots
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/swapa737
Matt McCants:
Today's SWAPA Number is 92.7. That's the percentage of pilots that voted to make the Tentative Agreement between SWAPA and Southwest Airlines a Collective Bargaining Agreement in the vote that closed last week.
Mike Panebianco:
On today's podcast, we're talking with SWAPA President, Captain Casey Murray and SWAPA VP, Captain Tom Nekouei about what comes next for SWAPA and its members in a post-contract 2024.
Matt McCants:
I'm Matt McCants.
Mike Panebianco:
And I'm Mike Panebianco. And here's our interview with Casey and Tom.
Case and Tom, when you look at the results from our vote, what message do you think the outcome sends on how SWAPA approached the negotiation and what's the takeaway that those leading SWAPA tomorrow should take away as a lesson?
Casey Murray:
I think that as we move forward, looking back at what SWAPA did to prepare, and I think it speaks volumes and we have to learn and make sure the future SWAPA learns and builds upon the preparation, the effort, the personnel and everyone that was involved all the way back to 2017 when the SEP process started. I think we've set a great baseline and it's going to be incredible to watch SWAPA grow from that. Seeing where the results were, I think speaks to where our pilots were at listening to the pilots, the amount of polling leading up to this, no one's ever done before, not only at SWAPA but anywhere. The SEP process was put together, and I know a lot of pilots listening to this weren't here for that, but just a real quick review. We decided to do a rewrite of the contract really to address language as well as processes on the scheduling side to improve the pilot experience that we saw kind of degrading.
But the SEP process started in May of 2017 and it was a 7-week rolling process of every chapter of the contract, and it was a survey followed by education learned from that survey, full write in, open-ended survey questions that then led into education on those particular items and then polling and then at the end of that seven weeks, the SMEs in that section, whichever one it was, whether it was scope, whether it was schedule execution, whether it was discipline, then wrote the language while the next seven weeks started. And it was ambitious and we closed that in October of 2019 after the final board meeting prior to us opening. And I think we have to build upon what we did there and refine and see what we can do better.
Matt McCants:
Going back to survey education and polling, would you do it again that way, meaning was it only necessary for the rewrite or will we be doing that going forward?
Casey Murray:
That's a great question and I've had several pilots ask through the roadshows and all, and the SEP was really to address the rewrite and make sure that we captured every part of the contract and input from those that were out there fighting the battle every day, being the most productive and the safest pilots in the world. But moving forward, it's not going to be, or at least I don't foresee it being that intensive again. We are going to have to learn from this contract how it's implemented, how it's interpreted. It was almost addressed at every roadshow, but there are hundreds and thousands of pages of notes. They've already been used in several kind of clarifications with the company. So as we move forward, we're going to have to learn which sections of the contract need bolstering on the next round.
Something that I'm really proud of, of our pilots was their level of engagement. It allowed us to provide Jody with what he needed in the room and what we've really done is moved our contract in parody with our peers as far as apples to apples comparisons across the entire contract. We have trailed our peers in most sections of our contract for decades, and we are now at a point in the pattern bargaining process where we can have direct comparisons with our peers and as we move forward in the next round, the 5-year deal with an 18-month early opener puts us opening after our peers, which was strategic. Each of our peers as well as us will be able to raise the tent pole a little bit higher. And so it's allowed us to focus on the patterning bargaining aspect as well as making our contract as strong and as Southwest focused as it can be.
Tom Nekouei:
The first question that you asked Mike was about what we leave behind for future SWAPA leaders when Casey and I are back online flying. One of the things was as Casey talked about the SEP process, but that rewrite was written by the pilots for the pilots and it was through the SEP process that we had the rewrite become so successful because it was quite literally, and I've said this in upgrade classes and new hire classes, it was written by our membership, exactly what they wanted. But for the future leaders that are going to take over these offices, I think what really worked well was not just the SEP process, of course that was monumental and very pivotal in how we did it. But also the fact that we stayed extremely data-driven and we never became emotional even though the entire process took nearly four years and the perseverance that the NC showed and really the membership, their patients to keep supporting SWAPA throughout the delay tactics that we saw obviously for three plus years.
And one of the other pillars that I think made us successful on this drive and hopefully will be one of the tenants of SWAPA going forward was transparency with the membership. We were extremely transparent. We started that in 2016. That was one of the things that when Casey first took over, I remember distinctly in the room as negotiating chair, was that his team was going to be the most transparent agency that we had. And I think that really helped us because there was never a time where throughout the cycle and the process that the membership ever had to guess what it's that we were doing in the room. And that has to continue.
Casey Murray:
Sunlight is the ultimate disinfectant and it's true in a member organization where the members really need to have the voice and are the voice of who represents them. And I don't mean to get philosophical, but it's something we can't lose. One of the things that I've heard is we can't be the smartest people in the room and that has become kind of a mantra here. Our pilots are out there every day. Our pilots are experiencing frustrations, every pilot's frustrations are different. And until we are listening and understanding, we really can't address and continue to address the pilot experience. And that's where really we have to focus on as we move forward is the pilot experience, the pilot expectation and the pilot culture and what is going on out there on the line and what can we do to support and make sure that the expectations of our pilots when they go to work is met.
Mike Panebianco:
It's probably a little early for post-mortem work, but was there anything that we saw during the process yet that we need to do better moving forward?
Tom Nekouei:
We have to be extremely surgical coming out of this for the postmortem, as you said, to identify where we could have done better and been more data-driven or whatever the case is. But I think it's going to take us a little bit as we gather our thoughts here in the building and really hear back from the membership too. I think it's going to be pretty pivotal to start that polling process again and see once this thing settles in a little bit and then we can go back and do dissection of what we could have done better.
Casey Murray:
It's never going to be perfect and there has to be a recognition, identification and then an addressing of where our pilots feel that we fell short and try to address those. And that's okay and that's good. I think all of us feel that there are some things we would've done differently and there's some things we wouldn't. But overall we have to learn from the good and the bad. I'll tell you, it's only been two days since it closed when we're recording this and the amount of meetings we've had on strategically where we're headed. Since the SEP process started, we've had the issues with the max in 2019. We've had over-staffing issues in that same period. We then ran into COVID, we then ran into the mandate issues. We ran into the chaos of revenge travel and the airline trying to keep up with that and what our pilots went through for over two years with just the chaos that was our operation. So our pilots deserve a respite from the negotiations.
One of the main things we wanted to address with the company was that chaos for their health and their prosperity. And I think we are going to need to be a part of that with the company. Also addressing some things within SWAPA that we haven't had the time, energy, or effort as everything was going towards negotiations. And I think the next couple of years are going to be a combination of meeting with the company, with our data, assisting them in moving forward and excelling rather than trying not to fail. And then again, addressing many different aspects of our union and the things that go inside to make us stronger so that when the next one does come, we are prepared and the resources are there and the personnel are there as well as our internal processes are there.
Matt McCants:
So a little over 7% of our members didn't support the TA. Unity is our strength and many of those who showed up for nearly every strike committee event are amongst those no voters. What is your message to those pilots?
Casey Murray:
I think that we have to learn from them and understand where we fell short, where they believe that we need to move forward from and address those concerns as we move forward. I think it's good. Some of our strongest supporters, as you noted, were some of those no voters. And again, we have to learn the good, the bad and the ugly and reinforce what we've done well and correct what we did wrong. Internally, our discussions have been just in the past 48 hours on that exact thing. Yeah, it was a great success. The success is important, but also addressing what we didn't achieve is just as important if not more important. So we have to listen and continue to grow.
Tom Nekouei:
Look everything, including politics is local. What happens at your dinner table is how you're going to vote, whether it's on a contract or elections or whatnot. But we do need to, coming out of this, do some polling and have specific questions as to, "Hey, for instance, I'm not a pollster, but if you voted against the ratified agreement, what was the point of contention and what did SWAPA miss?" And see if those things poll high uniformly and then go back and fix that in the next cycle. But those 7.25% of members are our members and we negotiate and advocate for them as well. And Casey always says we're a family and sometimes we throw shoes at one another, but we'll have to do the postmortem and see what the highest points were that didn't meet their expectations.
Casey Murray:
If we don't do that today, as history has shown, there's going to be the next fire and the next fire and the next fire. So we have to take this opportunity and learn and make sure that it's documented and on the list as we move forward because we're going to be dealing with the next battle and the next battle as we go forward. Something really important I think, and Tom and I have discussed this at length, and Tom said this the other day and it's one of my favorite sayings, but the hardest part of war is peace.
And I think we have to embrace the peace right now, and I think all of our pilots deserve a respite from the battle that we've been waging for many years and we've got to move forward. Southwest has to address that as well and move forward and take this time and the tools that we've given them in the contract to really excel and get away from the trying not to fail and regaining our place as the competitive juggernaut that we are. And that's part of our duty as well, is to push them to be the best they can as well. So again, just to reiterate, we have to address where we fell short, where our pilots felt now so that it's not lost in the chaos that will inevitably come.
Mike Panebianco:
What specifically does Southwest have to do to rebuild that relationship?
Tom Nekouei:
I think we both Southwest and SWAPA have a really good blank canvas right now. The implementation for sure will be the litmus test. I am optimistic about the fact that we did agree to the joint implementation committee, which will be your team that negotiated the contract and the company indicated that they're motivated. We've never had that coming out of the 2016 contract as well where we had a seat at the table for the implementation, which is just as important as the deal itself. If the implementation goes, it's not going to go flawless. There's going to be tech touches or whatnot that they're going to miss and we're going to have to deal with it, but we're going to have a seat at the table. And I think coming out of the ratified agreement, the first thing, as I said, the litmus test will be implementation and then how do they tear down the silos that are built in certain departments over at the company that we've had issues with?
And I think it's going to have to be a very collaborative effort if we are to turn the page into a new collaborative relationship, not having the negativity volley back and forth. But really the ball is in the company's court and we have agreed, Casey and I have talked to them about this particular thing that Casey's here for another year. I'm here for another two years and we don't know who's going to lead SWAPA after us. But we are in agreement that we do need to turn that page. But again, the ball is in the company's court and the litmus test will be implementation.
Casey Murray:
I've been talking to the SRC multiple times a day and they've actually seen the company dragging in many items and implementing them sooner. Individual items, we're not talking the big things, but a lot of the individual things the company is making and those tasks with it are making a concerted effort to get as much as they can done as soon as they can. And I think that needs to be recognized. We talked about throwing shoes and it's what it was, but at the end of the day, and it's what brought me here to Southwest Airlines, and I think it's important to realize it's also what I'm most proud of of SWAPA. We were throwing shoes, but a lot of it was at frustration of where our company was going and not being heard, not being listened to, dismissed and pick an item, whether it was the number of pilots leaving, whether it was the operation, whether it was the chaos, whether it was a pilot not having an expectation of flying what they bid.
I mean, there were so many things and I'm hoping to partner and push the company to be the best they can, but we are tied to Southwest Airlines and they have to succeed for all of us to succeed. And that honestly has been our goal for the past eight years, whether it was the rewrite, whether it was the data that we were providing, and we now have a roadmap for the future for both Southwest and how our pilots are used and our pilots and their expectations moving forward and bringing some certainty to their lives, their family lives as well as Southwest. And I think Southwest has to embrace that. I said it earlier, say it again. I want to see Southwest succeed. I want to see them take advantage of the most powerful network in the world and continue to do what they have traditionally done in the past. And that has slowed down a bit in the past several years, but it's time for Southwest to get out there and be the airline that really they were set up to be.
Tom Nekouei:
I'll add one more thing aside from the implementation that is going to be, like I said, the litmus test and hopefully they're listening. I know a lot of the Southwest flight ops leadership listens to these podcasts, but I challenged them. There were one thing that they were to do to repair the relationship or at least start on that path, is involving SWAPA early on in the process, whatever that process is, good or bad. I think if they had just done that in the past, we'd be in a different place right now. And I think I've seen an effort from some of the leaders at flight ops that hopefully that'll be the norm, but that's my challenge to them is to involve us and be collaborative on everything we do and not just implementation.
Matt McCants:
You said we were giving the membership a respite. How do you see us maintaining unity as we move forward?
Casey Murray:
I think the respite is enjoying the fruits of what they have done up to now and our membership achieving this contract. Our comm being fired up all the time takes a toll. It takes a toll on all of us. So I think the pilots need to be out there and take advantage of things as they're implemented and really practice being the most productive, safest pilots, being the onsite leaders that they always have been, and really living the pilot culture that I think we have. Regardless of company culture, the pilot culture and what we do is really something to be proud of. But your question, Matt, was to engagement and we will continue to evolve in how we communicate to our pilots to make sure that level of engagement stays where it is. But part of that respite is, and I mentioned it earlier, part of that respite is now having the time to tailor the changes in communication mediums, how we communicate.
I think we've done a good job of keeping the membership informed, but it has been kind of whack-a-mole, putting out fire after fire and communicating where we were at in negotiations and what we were doing. But now we can focus on refining the messages and how we communicate with our pilots. I think that's going to be huge moving forward. And we have a couple of years before the cycle starts again, and we have to lay the groundwork for the change in our demographic and the change in how the world communicates and take advantage of what is out there for us to communicate with and speak the same language that our pilots are asking for in whatever medium and whatever new medium that is to communicate from.
Mike Panebianco:
I want to pivot just a little bit and look forward, and strategic goals for 2024. What are some of the threats that are ongoing? I'd like to start with what's happening with APA, our neighbors down the road.
Casey Murray:
It's interesting, APA, one of the last independent unions and our offending against an ALPA drive right now. And that's part of what being independent allows us to do and it's absolutely critical and probably the most important aspect of SWAPA is our ability to singularly address, whether it's on Capitol Hill, whether it's on Wall Street, whether it's with our company, whether it's with the public, singularly address the needs and the causes of our pilots and not having an agenda from above. Through all the things that SWAPA's mission statement of negotiated minister and defend a contract is great. But at the end of the day, I truly believe that our biggest job is security. And I'm not talking airplane security, airport security, I'm talking career security and being an independent union, that becomes our guiding principle and that extends to Southwest Airlines and their success. It also extends to representing our pilots singularly on the Hill, Wall Street, public and through the media and that would be lost not being an independent union.
So we have several existential threats that we're going to have to be prepared for. And not that I'm saying ALPA is coming after us, but there is a reality that being a business driven entity that ALPA is that they wouldn't be looking at us. And again, no one's been approached. I don't see them doing that anytime soon with their focus on APA right now. But it is something we have to be prepared for as well as prepared for whatever eventuality comes and being ready.
Tom Nekouei:
Our membership and by extension SWAPA, we're fiercely protective of being an independent union. And I'll go back to the ratified agreement. This agreement has put us in the forefront in the industry, not just in terms of compensation, but work rules, disability, retirement, and we are going to be the 800 pound gorilla as an independent pilot union, whether APA decides to do things differently or not. But that independence is something that is in our strategic vision to grow and become more of a player on the national stage and the world stage. And I truly believe that.
Casey Murray:
The numerous threats that are currently out there. I mean Boeing right now, going through some major convulsions as far as the Mach 7, the 9 and the 10, and just yesterday they made the leap to inspecting even some of our airplanes. So I think it's incumbent upon SWAPA to provide data and analytics to the company. So I'll close with the Boeing issues and those are things that we are involved with and do discuss with not only Boeing but safety and again, Wall Street and all of the relationships we've built. But there is always threats through our career.
I have been very vocal with our other leaders within the community and our peers. One of the biggest threats I think are out there are single, no pilot and remotely piloted airplanes. And we are a generation or so, maybe not even two, maybe just a single generation away from seeing that. We have protections in our CBA. And safety always comes first until economics are involved. Once the economics get involved, that is going to be an issue that if we don't address now, and again it's in our contract, but at what point is that going to be a target? So there are so many threats out there for us right now, and we as an organization have to be prepared. Our members need to know what those threats are and we will continue to fight the battle. And again, security, safeguarding our profession.
Matt McCants:
Tom, not many get to look inside the building at how committees and specifically the long range planning committee function, and that's basically your wheelhouse. So what does 2024 look like for us on committee and how will you and Case reconstitute the LRPC now that many of the members have termed out?
Tom Nekouei:
One of the first things that I did when I started my term this year was to sit down with the chairpersons of various committees and see what it is that their vision is for their committee, what their challenges are and independent of the new contract, what they need going forward. Once we do this kind of a sit down with the chairpersons, we'll have a better idea of what the internal dynamics are within SWAPA, but we also have to look at, again, coming out of a cycle that really depleted our resources and we have to reprioritize on the long range and the strategic vision that we have for SWAPA. My vision is that when we gather all of our resources internally and we have a better idea of where based on membership sentiment as well, we're going that we create maybe a one, a three, and a five-year plan.
Now, the challenge that we have is that our business demand always comes from Southwest Airlines. So when they pivot and do something, whatever that might be, we need to adjust our business model here to adapt in how they pivot. And IT, for instance, is a very, very good example of that. We can do, and we do have a very, very vast, I would say IT infrastructure kind of renewal going on. That's a multi-year project. But if Southwest Airlines were to pivot and do something different IT-wise, our IT goals have to be adjusted and adapt to what basically the mothership does. So it's a dynamic goal whether we do the one, three and five, which is my vision for the LRPC going forward. We also have to have a 30 and a 60 and a 90-day plan, and that's on our agenda. Casey and I met yesterday and the day before yesterday and we discussed some of that and as we come out of the next couple of weeks, we'll formulate that plan, reinstitute the LRPC with new board members that, as you said, aren't termed out and we'll press forward.
Casey Murray:
And I want to address two things. Tom said depletion of resources, and I think it's incumbent to understand that statement and really it's a depletion of our personnel and their resources. Not so much that we've lost people because we haven't, but we have to recognize what this whole organization and putting 140% effort into the contract or what that's done to our people from the NC to the SRC, to the battles, contract admin has had and is going to have as far as answering pilot questions and on a 24-hour basis benefits where they're at, what they've contributed to the contract as well as the workload ahead of them. I'm very concerned about that. It's our personnel and I don't see the respite that kind of has been talked about, but we're going to try to create what we can as far as that goes, but the workload is just starting.
The second point I want to make is we've done an extremely good job with Tom when he was second VP and with our EOC of really redefining how we handle finances from a year-over-year basis to more of a rolling month to month basis and looking at our finances. We have to continue to refine that to make sure that we are prepared for whatever eventuality comes to us as well as preparing for the next negotiating cycle. So Tom's goal, my goal, very strongly stated is we're going to get back to 1% and we're going to operate off to 1% and that's critical. So those two things are very important to address and will continue to be addressed.
Matt McCants:
Okay, so you talked about some 30, 60, 90 day goals. What will the membership see?
Casey Murray:
I think that 30, 60, 90, 6 months, year, 2 year, 3 year, I think it's important to lay out not only our goals so that we are working on a daily basis within the organization. But also that our membership understands where we're at and the company understands where we're at, the company understands what our expectations are moving forward, and also providing the strategic flexibility to pivot as Tom spoke of as we need to, as threats arise, as the company changes and changes directions, we have to be prepared. So talking about the respite that never comes, Tom and I have spent the last two days since it ratified, we're recording this on the Wednesday before it's released, so it was ratified on Monday. The amount of work that has already begun on really where we go now is critical and I think that it's going to be important moving forward to make sure our pilots understand where we're headed, the company understands where we're headed and where everyone at 1450 understands where we're headed.
Tom Nekouei:
I think too that when you look at the strategic plan of the short-term and the long-term plan, it really puts the emphasis on different committees that we have within SWAPA and how important they are on a daily basis in terms of how we operate daily and on our long-term plans. When you look at the EFA for instance, where we have probably I can say comfortably the best relationship out of any labor union with Wall Street analysts and institutional investors, the threats in the industry that are coming, you see what's happening with Spirit and JetBlue and the M&A rounds and what the administration is going to allow, not allow. Every single one of the committees that we have is very, very integral and important to how we create that strategic plan and execute that strategic plan going forward, whether it's the one-year plan or a five-year plan. So I do want to emphasize that just because we're done negotiating, at least for the time being that the real work starts yesterday.
Casey Murray:
I think it'd be remiss if we didn't address that threat. Tom mentioned it, talk about Spirit, JetBlue, you talk about Spirit's. If the merger goes through, which we all know that has been blocked as of now, but if the merger goes through, that's only the start of their worries. If it doesn't go through their worries and their threats are a lot closer to them. We're all concerned with Spirit's immediate future, but that also is a threat to us. At nine o'clock last night, we were having a discussion, and I hate to even mention this, but it's real, and again, if we're not prepared then we have failed. But at nine o'clock last night, we were having discussions about M&A attorneys and retaining. And as disconcerting as that is, it's the reality of being prepared for that next threat and looking at where Boeing's at, looking at our reliance on Boeing and our next airplane, the 700 is probably looking at 2027 before it's certified. If it gets certified, the 9 and 10 or suspect as well.
And so we always look ahead at steps one, two, and three at whatever threat we're looking at. And we have an airplane issue, there's only one way to get them, and if we're not prepared, then we're already behind. And so again, nine o'clock last night, that's the discussion we're having and we will continue to prepare and it's not anything that we want. But on the other hand, we have to be cognizant of the threats to the company itself and being able to pivot for whatever eventuality. But if we've done no homework, then we've failed you.
Mike Panebianco:
So Case you've been negotiating either at your previous airline or here back in the early 2000s, and then obviously you told us to [inaudible 00:30:11] in 2015 when we asked you the first time to step in and share the NC, and you brought us a great contract then and now here you are in your final year as president after this deal just ratified by a record number. What do you see looking forward for your last year as the president?
Casey Murray:
I think I've spoke to a lot of it. It's setting up whoever comes in after. It's incredible having Tom who will carry over and assist that next president. I think financially we've done a great job of revamping where we're at. What we looked at two years ago is different than today, what we looked at a year ago, what we looked at three months ago is different than today, and so we have to be prepared for that strategic agility financially. I think it's important now to focus on the staff at SWAPA. I think it's important to focus on our committees, a recognition of what they have gone through, what's lying directly ahead of them, and what that means on a personal basis. I can speak for myself in the amount of time away from family that it's spent, but I think it's also incumbent in leading this organization to recognize what each member of the organization as well as the committee pilots have been through and making sure that they're fed and cared for, while also setting us up for the next 5 to 10 years.
Matt McCants:
We want to thank Casey and Tom for giving us a look at what our next steps will be with the new CBA. If you have another topic that you'd like us to tackle on the podcast, drop us a line at comm@swapa.org. Today's bonus number is eight. That is the number of provisions in the new contract that will take effect with pairings beginning on February 1st, including leg change override, and pay multiples.