49-114 (Security & Cockpit Defense, Brian Hagedorn, John Nolan)

Today's SWAPA number is 49-114. That's the section of US Code that guides the operations of the TSA. Today, we are sitting down with Brian Hagedorn and John Nolan from the Security and Cockpit Defense Committee to talk about upcoming changes to the TSA screening process for flight crew, as well as an update for our Federal Flight Deck Officers, or FFDOs.

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Transcript

Matt McCants:

Today's SWAPA number is 49-114. That's the section of US Code that guides the operations of the TSA.

Tony Mulhare:

Today, we are sitting down with Brian Hagedorn and John Nolan from the Security and Cockpit Defense Committee to talk about upcoming changes to the TSA screening process for flight crew, as well as an update for our Federal Flight Deck Officers, or FFDOs.

I'm Tony Mulhare.

Matt McCants:

And I'm Matt McCants, and here's our conversation with Brian and John. Security and Cockpit Defense, that's an interesting thing that this is a committee on its own that carries a number of different responsibilities, but I think the membership probably should get a pretty decent idea of what some of those responsibilities are and all the things that encompass it, right?

Tony Mulhare:

Right.

Brian Hagedorn:

Things like flight deck door enhancements that happen after 9/11, they're still tweaking a new flight deck door for all aircraft.

John Nolan:

Secondary barriers.

Brian Hagedorn:

Secondary barriers.

John Nolan:

Yep.

Matt McCants:

Sure, and that's just the mechanical piece. From the top down, where do your duties kind of start and end?

John Nolan:

Our duties with the Security and Cockpit Defense Committee is we handle our general population of pilots. As for TSA security checkpoint matters, we support our FFDOs and it matters with the Federal Air Marshal service and how we interact with them. For example, we'll have quarterly meetings with FFDOs and the Federal Air Marshal service industry partners as stakeholders to improve the program, and move the program forward to improve future protocols.

Tony Mulhare:

What do those interfaces look like? How often are you meeting with the Company? Let's just talk company first, then we'll transition into the TSA segment of this. You obviously have counterparts over at the Company. They have a big role in this. What do those meetings look like? How often do they happen, and what kind of the subjects of those meetings?

John Nolan:

Well, on the FFDO matters, we have FFDO coordinators. We have a company FFDO coordinator. I am one of them. Brian is one of them also. We work together on any instance that may happen on the line. We'll be interfaced with the Company on the phone, with security to resolve the matter with the FFDO that may be involved in some incident.

Tony Mulhare:

Okay. A second ago, you were talking about secondary barriers. Are you involved in that discussion with the Company and with other people like Boeing, or is that something that they are kind of being more directive with us on what those products will look like?

Brian Hagedorn:

Yeah, it's more directive, but to go back to the Company side of things, with the big change over that just happened on the management side, we actually have a new counterpart that we're actually going to meet with face-to-face this afternoon. We obviously work with Barnes Pruitt kind of hand in hand when things are happening in real time.

I can text him, call him, "Hey, I got something going on," and he immediately will then get the ball rolling if we need something happening. We have a good working relationship with Barnes. We don't always agree, but we've been able to communicate and work through some issues.

Tony Mulhare:

It's a collaborative environment.

Brian Hagedorn:

It's not hostile by any means. We get along and try to solve problems.

John Nolan:

We work with the Company to make sure any crew member that is involved in an incident, that issue is resolved, so there's no politics involved. It's the safety and security of the crew member or FFDO.

Matt McCants:

The listeners are aware, when we say FFDO, we're talking about a Federal Flight Deck Officer. This is armed personnel in the cockpit. When things happen in real time on the line, there are secure communication channels that you and the Company work through to communicate with the FFDOs, correct?

John Nolan:

Correct, yes. That might involve the NOC chief pilot and Barnes Corporate Security, us, might involve the FAMs as well.

Tony Mulhare:

What's your relationship like with the TSA, and do you do that through the Company, or do you liaise directly with the TSA?

Brian Hagedorn:

We normally just have quarterly Zoom meetings, and all the airlines are on these quarterly calls, but at the urging of Jody, he's like, "Hey, man, why don't y'all go up to DC and have a face-to-face with them?" When Jody said that, I was like, "That's a pretty good idea." I reached out to our TSA counterpart that holds those quarterly meetings and asked for a face-to-face, and it was funny.

The response we got back was, "Well, what do you want to talk about?" I think he was like, "They're coming up here because they're upset about something." Really, no, it was just we wanted to get to know him, we wanted him to know who we are. When you go to these big conferences, there's a lot of people.

Matt McCants:

Yeah, a lot of agendas.

Brian Hagedorn:

You can't get FaceTime with them.

Matt McCants:

Sure.

Brian Hagedorn:

He agreed. Two weeks ago, we went up, flew to DC, John and I, and we had one of our governmental affairs, Kyle went with us. We had a great meeting. At the end of the meeting I was like, "How often do you do this?" He goes, "Well, Southwest, you're the first. You're the first one to ask for face-to-face, and this is the first time we've done it."

We thought it went so well, we hope that we can continue to do that, face-to-face meetings, and continue building that relationship with him so that fosters and continues to grow.

Tony Mulhare:

Well, it'll certainly pay dividends down the line if there's something that you need to work out. Having a personal relationship with that guy as opposed to just being a random connection over a Zoom call or just an email goes a long way.

John Nolan:

Well, I have to add, he goes out and solves problems at different stations. We get lots of reports in about, "This airport did this, this other airport did it this way." As we all know on the line, it can be very tedious dealing with the TSA, so we're always looking for a professional relationship with TSA. I think this is fostering a partnership of security, national security, between pilots and the TSA.

Face-to-face is really, really good, and the phone calls are difficult, the Zoom meeting phone calls. We're suggesting that maybe we can meet on a quarterly basis or some periodic pace where we can bring in all the stakeholders like we do with the FFDO program. It's very productive, because it's all real time, real reports what's happening. We're trying to see if we can actually make that happen for our pilots.

Matt McCants:

Sure, and that sounds like a good practice moving forward. Let's get into the content of what that meeting was about. How did it start? Where did it go? How did it conclude? What were some of the issues that you guys talked through?

Brian Hagedorn:

The new crew member access point that they're developing and will be rolling out this year was supposed to, well, you will start, pilots will start seeing it in the wild right now. They have the system set up. They would not disclose which airports, we did ask that, but November was when this was completely supposed to turn over from KCM to Crew Member Access Point, CMAP for short.

With the new administration and roles changing, that timeline might get shifted a little bit, they told us. We will have to just wait and see, a lot of changing with the Trump administration coming in.

Tony Mulhare:

Let's dive into that CMAP a little bit. What's that going to look like?

Brian Hagedorn:

CMAP is going to replace KCM. KCM will be sunsetted. No more barcodes, no more cards, KCM cards to carry around. You're going to walk up to, if you're familiar with what TSA is using in pre-check, where you walk up and it takes a picture of you, it's going to do that, and four seconds later, the image is deleted. You will be matched up with your photo from your passport from the Company side that is supplied, it vets you. This is the same thing that KCM does.

It's a vetting process to say, "He's employed. He's not in any kind of KCM restrictions, CMAP restrictions," and it says, "Yes, he's approved or selected for additional screening, or denied." It's supposed to be six seconds faster than what you're currently using at KCM. There will still be randoms. It's basically the same system, just called CMAP now with facial recognition.

Matt McCants:

Okay. Is this going to be a program that each pilot has to opt into?

Brian Hagedorn:

Nope. Completely voluntary, just like KCM is. I know a lot of our pilots are frustrated with the program, but it is completely voluntary. If you don't like what's happening, you can go stand in regular screening and get to the jet when you get to the jet.

Matt McCants:

Okay. It's a program that you must volunteer for. You talked on the random rate. During your meeting, did he discuss what he thinks the nominal random rate for the new program is going to look like?

Brian Hagedorn:

They do not tell us those numbers.

Matt McCants:

Okay.

Brian Hagedorn:

Those numbers are...

Matt McCants:

Pretty close held.

Brian Hagedorn:

I can tell you why the random rate is what it is. It's because firearms keep getting brought through KCM checkpoints. In the first quarter, there was more than one. Every time a firearm comes through KCM and it's discovered, it just sets us back from getting that random rate to a more number that we used to be comfortable with.

Tony Mulhare:

Is KCM sunsetting because of these random issues in the number of firearms, and those kinds of things, other things you're not supposed to be carrying through KCM, or is CMAP replacing KCM for a different reason?

Brian Hagedorn:

Yeah, I think it's being replaced for a different reason.CMAP is going to be owned by TSA.

Matt McCants:

Owned and operated by TSA is the new CMAP program. Okay.

Tony Mulhare:

From a user's perspective, other than the picture, what changes?

Brian Hagedorn:

Not much. That's it. Same system, same protocols, going to have restrictions. You can't bring other people's stuff through, you can't carry pets through, can't bring children through. It is, well, you laugh, I've seen it happen and get reports of it, people trying to do things. Prohibitive items and international travel, same thing.

Tony Mulhare:

The rules are really changing, just the computer program.

John Nolan:

Same rules apply where you're working with the TSA maybe to eliminate the uniform requirement with the new CMAP. That's still work in progress, but all the prohibited items, firearms drive the random rates. Might add too is we did talk about pilot prohibited items coming through, as opposed to flight attendant prohibited items, and they're basically match. There is no difference in that. All of us have to work better to stop the prohibited items.

Tony Mulhare:

For us gun owners out there, what are your best practices? If I've gone to the range, range bags versus flight bags, what are your recommendations?

John Nolan:

I've had a couple instances in the last year, and it's more newer people, but the recommendation is we always, I've been doing security for 30 years, is don't make your overnight bag your range bag. Also, learned is you check your bag, you make sure it's nothing's there, but do you really know where everything is? Do you know where your ammo is, your firearm is? I had someone that actually didn't verify where it was, and it ended up being in their bag.

Once that happens, then you're dealing with TSA violation, where you are meeting at a KCM or a BCMAP, and there is information coming out on that, the periods, basically, it's a one, two, three strike rule, and periods where you'll be denied KCM privileges or CMAP privileges for the future. Then there's also a process where if you do bring a prohibited item through, you will be detained shortly and they will get all your information and they'll write a report.

Once that happens, it goes to the TSA attorneys, where they decide based on report what will happen, and you'll get a letter in the mail. It'll say, "This is what you violated," under what code, and the evidence they present, and it might include a fine. If this does happen, I would recommend that you act professional the whole time, and you contact Security and Cockpit Defense Committee.

We will help you through, guide you through the process, and we could actually help you on your behalf with the TSA lawyers, and probably reduce a fine or get it eliminated, depending on the severity of the violation.

Tony Mulhare:

When should I make that call, like right away? Walk us through what happens? You said I might get detained. Am I still going to be able to fly my [inaudible 00:12:58] that day, or...

Brian Hagedorn:

Most cases, yes. They're just going to detain you, take the prohibitive item, write the report. You'll know they're writing the report. There's no ambiguity to this. You are handing over driver's license, and they're getting an address so that they can find your address to send this letter that he's talking about. Yeah, call us immediately.

Hey, just if they write the report, they're going to pursue something. Call John or I and get us on the phone, tell us what happened. We will then tell you, "Expect a letter in the mail." If you've got family that checks your mail or whatever, tell them, "Hey, you need to be on the lookout for this."

Matt McCants:

Be on lookout for this. Yep.

Brian Hagedorn:

Comes in snail mail, and then when you get the letter, there's options. It says you can pay the fine and be done with it. You can present evidence on your behalf. You can request a hearing via Skype or Zoom.

Tony Mulhare:

What I'm hearing is call you again.

Brian Hagedorn:

Yeah.

Matt McCants:

Like we say everything around here, call SWAPA first.

John Nolan:

Right.

Matt McCants:

I want to go back to something you said earlier, John, about regardless of what kind of interaction you find yourself in the middle with with TSA, step one is to remain professional. If you've been around this business long enough, everybody's had a situation, a circumstance, maybe they caught you on the wrong day, you caught them on the wrong day.

One word gets said a way that you didn't like or they didn't like, and now, we kind of are leading ourselves down this road where there might be a conflict with TSA. Let's walk the membership through what that could look like and what to do.

John Nolan:

There might be bad days for the TSA people there, or they might not have all the training, or they're new and they don't really understand. You can explain your case, or ask a supervisor to come over and discuss the issue. The big thing for us is to remain calm and professional the whole time.

Then call us and we'll help you deal with it, or we'll talk to TSA and say, "Hey, this is the problem we're having at this airport," and they will step in and correct it. Also, we have ways to file complaints with TSA questions.

Tony Mulhare:

Is there an example of a success story that you've been able to change either a behavior, or a procedure, or something that was going awry with TSA via feedback?

Brian Hagedorn:

Fort Lauderdale, in order to even use TSA pre-check, you have to go to KCM first.

Tony Mulhare:

Right.

Brian Hagedorn:

A lot of our guys are saying that's a waste of time. I'm just going to go random myself and just go. That is against KCM rules.

Tony Mulhare:

Everywhere.

Brian Hagedorn:

Correct. A lot of people don't realize that, but the KCM system is vetting you. That is the whole reason you got to go there first is okay, yes, he's...

Tony Mulhare:

TSA pre-check is also a vetted process, which is why you just can't self-vet.

Brian Hagedorn:

Correct. In Fort Lauderdale only, he went for station visits. We kept getting all these complaints about Fort Lauderdale. He goes, "I'm going to go down there." He goes down there and he calls me, he goes, "Brian, I got a handle on what's going on, but your guys are not going to KCM first. They're just skipping that step and going straight to pre-check." I said, "Okay."

I'm trying to educate the membership of, "I know that you get random a lot, and I know that you feel like you're being picked on, but it is truly a computerized system that is just, it selects when it selects. Nobody's coming after you personally." In Fort Lauderdale at the TSA pre-check lines, they use the automated bins. You put your bag in the bin, it rolls, and then it slides and gets in queue with all the other passengers. When our guys try to go to the front of that line, that throws their whole screening off in Fort Lauderdale at the TSA pre-check lines.

Matt McCants:

Okay.

Tony Mulhare:

That's unique to Fort Lauderdale?

Brian Hagedorn:

It's unique to Fort Lauderdale. I know Atlanta uses the same system, but they don't use the automated bins. They send you to a regular conveyor belt type screening machine that's not using the automated bins. They're right next to one another. The FSD in Fort Lauderdale says, "All right, by rule, front of the line privileges in the TSA playbook is when you get your ID checked. It does not mean you get to go to the front of the X-ray machine."

I tried to explain that in my email, didn't go over well, but in their rule book, it says, "Front of the line ends at the podium where your ID is checked." I actually have a flow chart that was just given to us and approved by TSA that is not SSI, that we're going to send out to everybody, and it's got all these rules clearly defined and spelled out for you, but you have to go to KCM and be selected first in order to go use the TSA pre-check lines.

If you're in uniform and versus out of uniform, some things change. If you are in uniform, you're allowed your liquids exemptions and you get to go to the front of the line. Front of the line, meaning you get to go to the podium where your ID is checked. Now, Fort Lauderdale is unique. Most places are giving you a courtesy in sending you to the front because the automated bin system isn't there.

Matt McCants:

That is a courtesy.

Brian Hagedorn:

It is a courtesy.

Matt McCants:

Okay.

Tony Mulhare:

They'll usually call you up, right? "Hey, crew, come on up."

Brian Hagedorn:

I know Denver's been giving some guys problems about trying to cut the line, so I'm not sure they have the same automated bin thing. I haven't been through Denver security in a while, but the workaround for Fort Lauderdale only is at regular screening. They don't have the automated bin system, so they're okay with you cutting all the way to the front of the line where the X-ray machine is in front of passengers, just going to the regular screening line.

I hope this will clear up the air. Fort Lauderdale only: if you go to KCM and are selected to be random, skip pre-check, go to the regular screening line, they will let you cut all the way to the front to the X-ray machine. The only reason why pre-check doesn't work for Fort Lauderdale is because the automated bin system trying to shove bags in and push bags out of the way to get a crew bag in. It just slows everything down.

Matt McCants:

Okay. All right. Just so I add this clear, I think, in general, you need to try to go through KCM before you go to TSA pre-check. That's step one. Let's say you get randomed, and now you head over to TSA pre-check. It is a courtesy for them to send you to the front of the TSA pre-check line. Most of them will let you do this, but by the letter of their regulation, that "front" of the TSA pre-check line actually ends at the podium.

Brian Hagedorn:

Correct.

Matt McCants:

Okay. If we're understanding this correctly for the membership's purview here, there's overarching federal guidance here, and then each installation can then implement certain different things based on their equipment. Does that sound about right?

Brian Hagedorn:

Yeah. I'm glad you brought that up, because Fort Lauderdale, Baltimore, Nashville are using ATLAS Teams, Advanced Threat Location Asset Service is what ATLAS stands for. These are the guys that you see inside of security, after you've already gone through security. They might be standing at an elevator. They are checking you inside of security to catch prohibited items. We've had some instances where guys are getting full-on pat downs in the terminal in front of passengers.

Matt McCants:

Okay, let's walk through what that looks like and what to do.

Brian Hagedorn:

Yeah, absolutely. You can 1000% ask for a private screening. If they're going to pat you down and ask to pat you down and say, "Hey, no problem."

Matt McCants:

No matter who's asking you.

Brian Hagedorn:

You have to comply. You can ask for the private pat down, and they're going to take you somewhere to do a private screening.

Tony Mulhare:

Is that something you would not just ask for, but that is something you guys would both recommend?

Brian Hagedorn:

I would 1000%.

Tony Mulhare:

Right?

Brian Hagedorn:

Absolutely, unequivocally asked for the private pat down.

Tony Mulhare:

It's just not a good look in front of passengers.

Brian Hagedorn:

No, I agree, and I know what you guys are thinking. I'm about to go fly this airplane. It's just not a good look for passengers or us. We feel like, I know what our pilots feel like. Why are they criminalizing me? Why are they treating me like a criminal when I'm in charge of $2 billion worth of asset every time we pull off the gate? I get it, but believe it or not, they are catching more contraband with the ATLAS searches than they are through regular screening.

If you're an FFDO and you're asked if you've got any of your equipment in a bag, they're not allowed to search that bag. They have to have a FAM come and search that bag with equipment in it.

Tony Mulhare:

You need to identify that you're an FFDO to that ATLAS team.

Brian Hagedorn:

Yes. If you're an FFDO, in our SOPs, they can't search your bag with equipment in it. Now, if you've got a bag without equipment in it, they can search that. Sometimes they swab your hands. That's another thing that they've been doing. They'll just swab your hands for explosives.

The ATLAS teams have multiple different ways to do what they're doing, but I know I've gotten reports from Baltimore, and Nashville, and Fort Lauderdale, for sure are using them. If you encounter them, and they're wanting to do some sort of a pat-down, ask for the private screening.

Tony Mulhare:

Stay calm, be professional, ask for the private screening.

John Nolan:

They have full authority, they can be at any airport, and they have multiple ways they would want to vet and secure.

Matt McCants:

Okay, I think we covered that ground pretty well. Let's pivot a little bit to some other identification news that we've received in recent weeks here. We put out some comm about the Real ID requirements going into effect. What are the options if one of our pilots is waiting for their Real ID to arrive, and they're in the middle of getting their passport renewed, that's not an option? Walk us through what our options are here.

Brian Hagedorn:

Yeah, so we had this conversation because that came up. I had a guy who emailed me and he said, "Hey, my state has a six-month backlog to get a Real ID and my passport's up for renewal. How am I going to get through security?" You're going to go through regular security and you're not going to be allowed front of the line. You're going to have to stand in line.

That's the workaround right now, unfortunately. In TSA's eyes, they have pushed Real ID out for nine years. It's been that long when they introduced Real ID. They don't have much sympathy for people right now, unfortunately that don't have Real ID.

Tony Mulhare:

Every passenger needs Real ID to fly now, right?

Brian Hagedorn:

Yes.

Tony Mulhare:

If you go through regular security and you don't have a Real ID, a driver's license, or your passport, is your crew badge going to get you through to security at that point?

Brian Hagedorn:

In uniform, you just need your crew ID and one Real ID. If you're out of uniform, this is where it's going to get a little tricky, you got to have a Real ID, passport counts, and two forms of identification to get you through. Crew Badge is one, your FAA license is one, military ID is one. The TSA KCM website has all this information on it. They've actually cleaned it up here recently and made it a little bit more user-friendly.

Tony Mulhare:

So let me make sure I have this straight, For uniformed crewmembers going through KCM,  they will need a valid non expired ID and a valid non expired aircraft operator ID.  and then FAA airman certificate can be used as a third ID for crewmembers not in uniform. is that right?

Brian Hagedorn:

Yep.

Tony Mulhare:

Let's give an update to our FFDOs for a second. Does the change from KCM to CMAP change anything as far as their entry procedures as FFDOs?

Brian Hagedorn:

No.

Tony Mulhare:

Then on those same lines, last summer we put out some executive comm about international reroutes in our FFDOs. Can you just walk us through a reminder as we approach the busy summer travel season of what an FFDO should do, if they get a call from crew scheduling that says, "Hey, I need you to go to Havana, or Mexico, or wherever?"

John Nolan:

This is an issue that's happened several times. You might find yourself in a station like Kansas City and you might get a rewrap, Cancun, wherever it may be, and you're an FFDO. Now, you have to deal with, "Okay, how do I secure my equipment and fly this leg, or turn back from an international destination?" What we've worked at with the Company, and Tom McCoy has helped us out with that, is you can call scheduling.

If you can't secure that weapon, you can try to get removed from that trip or swapped out for other reasons, especially if there's going to be a delay, or you don't know where a safe is, or one's not available. If you do fly the leg, and you're able to secure your weapon in a TSA safe, or whatever procedures that airport or station may have to secure that weapon, the Company will, after you fly your trip, will try to get you back to that station to retrieve your equipment, or they will positive space you on your time off to go get that equipment.

Tony Mulhare:

Okay, so if you get that phone call from scheduling or you see it on your board and you're unsure, you're at an outstation out of domicile where there's FFDO lockers, how do you find that information? Call the TSOC? Is it in the SOPs? Where would you go to look for that?

John Nolan:

The best and quickest way is called TSOC. They can tell you exactly where to go.

Tony Mulhare:

Then they are, the Company is now giving pilots must-rides back to collect their equipment?

John Nolan:

Yeah. You have to work with the Company. It's another thing with being professional. They'll accommodate you to that safe or station again to get your equipment.

Tony Mulhare:

That's been going well in practice for the last nine months or so?

John Nolan:

Well, here's the thing with that. Sometimes it's the Company's press, your press. The important thing we'd like to say is if you're uncomfortable, it puts you in the red. You might want to come back out of that and maybe use the provisions provided by the Company to keep you safe from that trip. Talk to a schedule and just say, "Hey, I'm in the red, I need a break."

Matt McCants:

Yeah, yeah. What I'm hearing from this is if you're in that situation, slow down and communicate, and everything else will just fall into place.

John Nolan:

Correct.

Brian Hagedorn:

Yeah. I've had some success story of guy calling me, and I'm all flustered, and I just got rerouted. There's the problem, if you want to call it a problem, with Southwest is we do point to point, so we're not coming back to the station that we're normally leaving. To retrieve the weapon is a huge inconvenience for our FFDOs. Who wants to go on their day off to go get a piece of equipment that they were probably bid for to avoid? They bid on my schedule.

I'm an FFDO, I don't want to go international, so my seniority afforded me this, but now you're forcing me to go do this. I've had some success calling the NOC chief pilot and explaining, "Hey, this is going to be a lengthy delay. Is there another better way to do this?" Some, not all. If there is no other way for them to cover that flight, what John just told you is the agreed upon solutions for now. We are going to go meet with the Company this afternoon, and this is one of the topics we're going to bring up.

Like, "Hey, our guys are doing a voluntary service, and I know that's how you guys view it, but they're also doing a service of keeping our passengers safe, and maybe have a little bit of compassion here of what's going on."

John Nolan:

Yeah, I'd like to add on that. Your other options, there was one other option, and I've had to experience this myself with an international reroute, is if you're not able to get back to where your equipment is secured, you can contact TSOC and they will dispatch a FAM to go retrieve that for you.

They will take custody of your equipment, but here's the only problem with that. It'll take months before you can get it back. They're going to have to process that through their procedures and send it to a local FAM's office, where you'd have to go pick that up. It depends if they have those facilities in your city you might be commuting from, or whatever.

Matt McCants:

Okay. I think we covered a lot of ground here, and I hope we've cleared up a few misunderstandings or misconceptions that are out there, and there's certainly a number of resources if you want to get into a deeper dive about all this. Can you take the membership through where to find the details of this information, and how to contact you about all these programs and rules?

Brian Hagedorn:

Absolutely. TSA KCM website, you can just type in, Google search, TSA KCM, it'll pop up. If you have a complaint or you have an incident somewhere, and you want to get an answer of, "Hey, I think this procedure is wrong," there is an email address that, and I know for a fact, they will respond within 24 to 48 hours normally. That email address is TSAKCMQuestions@TSA.DHS.gov. I know that's a long email. We will put it on the notes here for you to find.

Matt McCants:

Yeah, absolutely. This will be in the show notes. Would you recommend that they run that by you before they send it?

Brian Hagedorn:

Yes, because we don't want to flood the email box with answers that I know we can answer. If you have something happen, call us up, shoot us a text message, call us. Glad to say, "Oh, yeah, this procedure, they followed procedure correctly," or, "No, it's not following procedure correctly." Then we will tell you to email that address. They will respond, and they do follow up with stations. I 100% know that for a fact.

Matt McCants:

Great. How can the listeners get in touch with you two?

Brian Hagedorn:

Cell phones are listed on the app on the website under this Cockpit Security and Defense Committee. I'm an East Coast guy and he's on the West Coast, so we kind of tag team things as they happen.

John Nolan:

Yeah, we keep things covered, so we're pretty much readily available. We'll get right back to you as soon as we can, depending on where we're flying or where the time zone is. We'd like to let you guys know, "Hey, if you send us emails, reports, and everything that's happened, we can get them over to TSA."

Since we have the working relationship now, they welcome our input and feedback, and that's the quickest way we can resolve problems at certain airports.

Matt McCants:

We'd like to thank John and Brian for coming on the show today to talk about all things security and cockpit defense, and our relationship with the TSA. Safety and security remain our top priorities at SWAPA, and all these processes go hand in hand with that mindset. As we spoke about, changes to KCM are coming, and we'll have more information about CMAP as it becomes available.

As always, if you have any feedback for this podcast or any of our comm products, please reach out to us at Comm@SWAPA.org. We really do want to hear from you.

Tony Mulhare:

Finally, today's bonus number is 1100, a rough estimate of the number of FFDOs at Southwest. SWAPA is proud to have the most FFDOs in the industry, and our Cockpit Security and Defense Committee is here to support you. You can find their contact information on SWAPA.org, or in the SWAPA app under the directory tab. South 1598, [inaudible 00:32:27].