Real Talk School Leadership with Dan Mault
Real Talk School Leadership is a podcast for educators, administrators, and change-makers who believe schools can be better — and are willing to do the work to make it happen.
Hosted by Dan Mault, elementary school principal and Creativity & Change Leadership graduate student, this show dives into the real conversations behind leadership in today’s schools. Each episode explores creativity, organizational change, team dynamics, and innovation through the lens of everyday practice — from building strong staff cultures and navigating challenges to rethinking systems and empowering diverse thinkers.
Blending research with real-world experience, Dan shares reflections from the principal’s office, lessons from graduate coursework, and practical strategies grounded in frameworks like FourSight, the 4 Ps of Creativity, and collaborative problem solving. You’ll hear honest insights, actionable ideas, and stories from the field designed to help you lead with clarity, empathy, and purpose.
This isn’t about quick fixes or trendy buzzwords.
It’s about people.
It’s about process.
And it’s about creating schools where both adults and students can thrive.
If you’re ready for authentic conversations, thoughtful leadership, and practical creativity in education — welcome to Real Talk School Leadership.
Real Talk School Leadership with Dan Mault
Episode #1 - Thinking Together: What Organizational Creativity Taught Me About Leadership
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In this episode, I reflect on my J-term course Organizational Creativity and Innovation (led by Dr. Michael Ackerbauer - check out his Ted Talk here) from the Creativity and Change Leadership program at Buffalo State University and how it’s reshaping the way I lead as a school principal.
We dive into FourSight and thinking preferences, the 4 Ps of creativity through A Bug’s Life, and a great book: Good Team, Bad Team, by Sarah Thurber and Blair Miller (available on Amazon) to explore how creativity actually shows up in real organizations. I share honest takeaways about team dynamics, leadership, and why what we often call “resistance” is really just different ways of thinking.
This isn’t just a recap of coursework, it’s a conversation about building better teams, creating safer environments for innovation, and leading change with more intention, empathy, and clarity.
If you’re an educator or leader looking for practical ways to support your people and strengthen your organization, this one’s for you.
Hello, everyone, and thanks for joining me today. I wanted to uh start off today by sharing a little bit of background. Uh I'm currently in the Creativity and Change Leadership Master's program at Buff State University. Uh, after finishing up the educational leadership program a few years back, uh, we had to take actually a couple of classes in the CPS or the creative problem solving uh department uh as a part of the educational leadership programming. And uh, and I knew that once I got settled back down that I wanted to jump into this program because I saw the power in it. So uh the program is really focused on understanding people and systems and change and innovation and how creativity uh is all tied into that. Um, as a uh as a principal, uh, that really resonated with me uh because education isn't just about the academics to me. It's about teams and the culture, it's about creating environments where both adults and our students can thrive. But uh we need to, we are constantly making decisions and uh and we want to make sure that we're doing those in the most creative and and really the most innovative ways possible to get real change, lasting change uh in our uh in our systems. So uh in this term, in the J term, uh, which uh uh thinking back for the last month, I will tell you that it was um it was it was a wonderful, wonderful course. However, uh it was extremely overwhelming to take a class like this over the course of three weeks and still be in school too. So um I had the opportunity this uh this semester or during this J term to take a course called Organizational Creativity and Innovation, uh, and that was with uh Dr. Michael Eckerbauer. Um fantastic guy, a wealth of knowledge, has so much information. Uh he actually uh worked at IBM for a very long time and and brought a lot of these principles that were taught into uh into IBM. So um when I came into the course, I already came in, like I said, knowing and believing in creativity. Um what I didn't fully appreciate, I guess, was just how structured and intentional and human-centered creativity in organizations really needs to be. Um so I, you know, I think a lot of times when when I am thinking about how to handle something in school, I'm really, you know, I have an idea, I have a plan, but I also um there are some times where I just felt like I was, you know, I'm throwing spaghetti at the wall to see what sticks. And and I think this program really said, you know, this is, these are the the tenants, these are the principles that we really need to bring in, and we need to make sure that it's just a little bit more structured and intentional uh to make sure that that the innovation and creativity really sticks. So today I just want to summarize a little bit about what I learned. I'm hoping that I can bring you some things that maybe you can take away and you can you know look into a bit further. Um and uh and if you have any questions, by all means, you can totally uh you know reach out and and have a conversation and we can talk more uh talk more about that. Um my hope is that you walk away with a few ideas that you can immediately try with your own teams. And like I said, if you have any questions whatsoever, just uh let me know. So um coming into this course, I already had experience with thinking profiles and creative problem-solving frameworks. Um, I understood already that people think differently, and and I value that in uh I value that. Um, but this semester expanded that understanding in a much deeper way for me, especially when it comes to how those differences actually play out in uh in our workplaces uh with our with our staff. So um, like many leaders, I tend to be action-oriented. Um, if there's a problem, uh, especially in a school, we know that we need to we need to solve it. And and in a lot of cases, we need to solve it quickly. Um, if there's an idea, I want to move forward with that. Uh, if I know that it's gonna meet the goals of our district uh in our school. Um for a long time when progress felt slow or conversations stretched on, I um I think I interpreted that as resistance. Um and what I'm realizing now is that most of the time it's not resistance at all. It's just a different thinking, uh different thinking preference, which I want to talk a little bit more about. So one of the most powerful tools that we explored this semester uh was foresight. So if you haven't seen uh if you haven't seen foresight before um or heard about it, you know, I definitely would say to take a look at that and see what it's about. Uh foresight is um at the core, it really is looking at how people prefer to think during problem solving. It breaks thinking into four main preferences. Uh so there's clarifiers, uh ideators, developers, and implementers. And that's really four steps that we have in the uh in the thinking process as well, in the uh in the in the problem solving process. Uh so clarifiers focus on understanding the problem. They ask questions, they say details, they they want clarity before moving on. Um and then moving on to ideators, they love generating possibilities. They're brainstorming, they're imagining alternatives, they're thinking uh, you know, in a pretty deep level and uh thinking up some some brand new things that maybe haven't been thought of before. And then we have developers. Uh developers take ideas and shape them into uh really um workable plans. Uh they refine and they evaluate, they strengthen uh the solutions that we are coming up with. And then uh implementers uh is the uh the final uh thinking profile, and that's really focused on action. Um they want to move forward, they want to put plans into practice and make things happen. Um here's the I think the important thing that I took away from this semester uh is that um none of none of those are better than the others. Uh all of them are absolutely necessary when it comes to uh taking a challenge uh and and and coming up with the very best solution for that challenge or uh coming up with something innovative and new. We really need all four of those uh types of thinking thinkers uh to uh to help us out with that. So they are all necessary. Uh I think this semester, what Foresight helped me see is that every organization already has all four types of those thinkers, um, whether we acknowledge them or not. Uh the challenge is that we often design our systems around just one or two preferences. So we have to be very careful, right? Especially as leaders. Um, we need to make sure that we're taking all of those, uh, all of those thinking preferences, those thinking profiles into account to make sure that we are uh we are making those very best decisions and getting everyone's voices heard uh in in in some of those challenges that we're facing. In schools, for example, we we sometimes rush straight to implementation. And I think I'm guilty of that. Um so uh here is uh here's what we probably should do. Uh if clarifiers uh had space to fully understand the why, or ideators, um, if they really haven't had a chance to contribute ideas or developers haven't helped shape the plan, then we create frustration before we even begin for the group. So we need to make sure that we're giving everyone those uh the time and and bringing the right people into our into our groups as we are developing solutions to problems. Um personally, I am a strong implementer. Um that means that I naturally want momentum, I want to, I want to push forward. But this this course this semester helped me recognize how that tendency can unintentionally silence um other people if I'm not really careful with that. Um I think that is going to help me approach leadership a little bit differently. So I have to ask, you know, have we clarified the problem together? Um, have we had the uh have we created uh a space at our meetings uh for enough ideas? Um have we developed this enough before rolling it out? Um like I said earlier, you know, I think we're we're living in the moment and we we try to go, go, go so quickly because there are so many decisions, so many things that need to be done and decisions that need to be made in a school that sometimes we forget to clarify, sometimes we forget to really look for better ideas. We don't need to just shoot for that that very first idea that pops out there and run with it. We really have to make sure that we have we have lots of ideas, including some wild and unusual ideas that maybe nobody has thought of before. And then also, you know, make sure that we're developing that idea once we have it. Um, foresight gives leaders uh really a shared language, which I know, you know, that is something that's also ridiculously important in schools. We talk about common language all the time across our content areas and and the things that we do in a school, uh, the processes and you know, just making sure that everybody is on the same page with what we do. Well, foresight gives us a shared language for how we solve problems. Um, there are different ways of thinking. If we if we can take all of that into consideration, it reduces the tension and it helps bring teams um under uh together and understand that slowing down a bit at the beginning often uh it speeds things up in the long run. Um that's something I think I need to actively work on and bring back to my uh to my school as well. And I think using the foresight as a framework for meetings and problem solving and professional learning is going to help us out there. So creativity, innovation, it doesn't mean that it's chaos. It means that we need to honor a process and going through the process of clarifying and uh ideating and developing and then implementing finally is going to help us get there. Totally uh would look into foresight more. If you're looking for a place to start, take a look at foresight. Uh, maybe even take the uh the thinking profile so you can see where you are. You probably have an idea of where you are, but I think it would be great to uh to really get that official data so you can know where you are and then start uh thinking about where people around you and your buildings are as well and and which thinking preferences they have. Uh one of the other things that we did this semester is we each uh each one of our groups, we we took a movie and we we looked at the uh the four P's of creativity. So the movie that I uh the movie that my group looked at was A Bug's Life. Uh so if you've seen the Pixar uh the Pixar film A Bug's Life, you know that uh I haven't seen it in a while, but it is absolutely fantastic. Uh so we looked at this through the lens of the four P's of creativity. So person, process, press, and product. Um we explored this uh over the course of a couple of weeks. Um so you can see the uh the main character, his name is Flick. Um he is someone who is willing to think a little bit differently. Um And then we also looked at the process, like I said, in how ideas evolved through trial and error and and really was there a process in the film? Uh the press or the environment is uh in in the colony in this movie. Um, we took a look at the colony and how it either supported or suppressed uh creativity. And then finally we looked at the product uh to see what was the ultimate solution that was emerging from this. Um, what stood out to me was how much environment mattered, right? And I think we all know that, but in this movie in particular, that was was absolutely true. Um when Flick was criticized or shut down uh creativity, it it stalled. Um when he found support and collaboration, innovation took off. So if you remember correctly, uh if you've seen the movie before, Flick is an ant. He's super creative, he is super willing to um, he wants to, he wants to do new things. Um however, uh in an ant colony, um, everything is pretty structured and everybody is really doing the same thing over and over. And when things are just a little bit off, um things don't go well. Uh so uh so Flick, this ant in this colony, he was looking for to create change and and innovation. And um, and that was tough, especially in an ant colony where, well, like I said, that doesn't, that doesn't necessarily happen. So he did go off eventually to help uh with this problem that they were having in the film. And he found some uh he found some some friends outside of the ant colony to come back and help them out with some of the problems that they were, they were facing. Um I uh I think this this kind of does mirror uh real life in organizations. Um people don't stop being creative because they run out of ideas. They stop because the environment uh doesn't really feel safe. And that is something else that I took out of this course. We need to make sure as leaders that we make an environment where everybody feels safe to try new things and to and to fail sometimes, but also um to have that shared vision of like why these changes matter, right? Um I think making sure that we have a good leadership team that says, hey, we are willing to to um, we want you to try new things. We want you to to, we know you're going to fail. And there's not going to be any sort of punishment. There's we want you to feel safe in this environment to do these things, to support our staff and our communities and our students as well. Um this directly relates to leadership. If you get a chance, watch the movie. Uh if we want innovation, we have to design spaces where people feel heard and valued and encouraged to take risks. And that's what comes out of this, uh, that's what came out of that movie. Wonderful activity for the uh for the class. Uh, and um, and I would I would encourage you, take a, take a look, make um, make an effort to watch that film because I think you'll uh you'll appreciate that and how it relates to our schools. We also spent some time this semester uh with researching uh the power of small wins. And uh we looked at the the book, um, we read the book uh Good Team, Bad Team. Absolutely, it's a fantastic book. It's an easy read. Um both the research that we looked at and uh the the book that we read uh both reinforced something I see every single day in schools. Um people are most motivated when they feel progress and meaningful work, and strong teams are built intentionally, not by accident. Those are two big things. Now, the other thing that I would say is vision is key, right? And I'll I'll keep saying this over and over. Vision is key. Um we need to make sure that we have a clear vision for everything we do, not just you know, a big vision. Um, I think all of our schools have a vision and a mission statement, but but really when it even uh whittling it down and having some conversations um, you know, about the individual committee meetings that you have or um, you know, any of the just the the meetings where you're bringing a grade level together to talk about how you can solve a problem. Make sure you have a vision for each one of those things. And and if everybody is on board with that vision, if everybody understands the vision, you're gonna keep driving towards that vision. So um I would highly recommend um read those things. There's uh, like I said, the research article that we read was The Power of Small Wins, and the book that we read was Good Team, Bad Team. Take a look at both of those. Um, I think you'll appreciate those. So what am I uh what am I taking forward with me from this course? I think I need to be more intentional intentional about honoring all four thinking preferences. Um, I think another big thing is slowing down early to build shared understanding, especially because I am an implementer. I need to make sure that I give time for clarifying and ideating and developing and making sure that it's clear that we all do have our thinking preferences. It's not, I don't have all the answers. I I am, I am apparently I am not a clarifier, an ideator or um a developer to the extent that I am an implementer. That doesn't mean that I don't do those things because I do. However, I am way stronger with implementing than I am in those other three areas. So bringing the right people onto my team and the the right people into my spaces when we're having those meetings and making decisions is huge. Um I also need to focus more on climate and team dynamics. And um, I need to lead with maybe a little bit more empathy on how differently people approach change and innovation and how they think. Um I feel like I am a rather empathetic person. However, in these uh specific areas, when we are making these decisions, that is how I need to take more people and their thinking preferences into account. And I think that's gonna make our entire school and the decisions that we're making, it's gonna make it even more uh uh sustainable and powerful over time. Um this course, I think it gave me um gave me a lens to look through. And I think that is the the important thing here. And I know I keep going back to foresight, but like that I think is the biggest takeaway from me. Start looking at these things through the lens of foresight and the thinking profiles, uh thinking preferences. And I think we'll be in a much better spot. So I guess I'll leave you with a couple of questions, if that's okay. Um, you know, this isn't just about me, but also for all of us to think about. How do you think we could better leverage the different thinkers in an organization to move the needle forward and to create more innovation and change that will stick in an organization? Um, something else is um, you know, I think thinking about your systems, your design systems that support creativity. Um, we don't always need, we don't need just compliance, right? We need to make sure that we're supporting creativity across the board. Um, sometimes that's difficult in a school because we do have things that we absolutely, there's, you know, um, I don't like using this word, but non-negotiables, right? There's things that we absolutely do, need to do. We have, we have standards, we need to make sure that we are uh we need to make sure that we're we're getting to where we need to be and helping our students succeed the best ways possible. But if we can bring in innovation and creativity to even move us, move us in an even greater direction, um, I think that is uh that is something that we need to think about too. What I see myself doing is leading with more intention and and a bit more patience and more trust in the collective intelligence of the team. Um, I think uh again, that goes back to uh thinking profiles. At the end of the day, creativity only matters to me when it leads to positive change for people, um, especially kids. Uh, this learning in uh this J term in this class that I just took, it reminded me that leadership isn't about having all the answers because I definitely don't. I don't think any of us do. It's about creating the conditions where answers can emerge together as a team, as a group, as a uh as that uh as part of a shared vision that we have for our schools and for our communities and our kids. So uh if you have any questions, like I said, let me know. Um I I appreciate you spending a little bit of time with me today. And I hope something here sparked a new way of thinking for you and your own organization. Uh we'll uh we'll talk soon. Happy, uh, happy teaching, happy leading.