Modern Energy Management

Jigar Shah's Perspective on the State of Energy Management

December 11, 2019 Jigar Shah, Nate Nilles, & Amber Artrip Season 1 Episode 12
Modern Energy Management
Jigar Shah's Perspective on the State of Energy Management
Modern Energy Management
Jigar Shah's Perspective on the State of Energy Management
Dec 11, 2019 Season 1 Episode 12
Jigar Shah, Nate Nilles, & Amber Artrip

In this episode, we're joined by Jigar Shah, the President and Co-Founder of Generate Capital and formerly the founder and CEO of SunEdison. He is also a host on one of our favorite energy podcasts, the Energy Gang. In this episode, we reflect on how far the energy industry has come and explored industry predictions for 2020 and beyond.

Get a free copy of our "2019 State of Energy Management" research report with best practices, insights, and strategies from over 200 energy and sustainability leaders.

Tune in and subscribe to the show at, where you'll also find additional resources to modernize your energy program. If you like our show, please be sure to leave us a review on the Apple Podcast app.

Do you have a modern energy management story you'd like to share with us? Please email us [email protected]

Show Notes Transcript

In this episode, we're joined by Jigar Shah, the President and Co-Founder of Generate Capital and formerly the founder and CEO of SunEdison. He is also a host on one of our favorite energy podcasts, the Energy Gang. In this episode, we reflect on how far the energy industry has come and explored industry predictions for 2020 and beyond.

Get a free copy of our "2019 State of Energy Management" research report with best practices, insights, and strategies from over 200 energy and sustainability leaders.

Tune in and subscribe to the show at, where you'll also find additional resources to modernize your energy program. If you like our show, please be sure to leave us a review on the Apple Podcast app.

Do you have a modern energy management story you'd like to share with us? Please email us [email protected]

Amber Artrip:   0:01
Hello, everyone, and thank you for tuning into the modern energy management podcast. This podcast is a platform for energy, sustainability and facilities leaders to share their stories of modern energy management at their organizations. My name is Amber, Our trip, and I'm the producer and co host of the show. As always, it's a pleasure to do this show every week with my co host Nationalists.

Nate Nilles:   0:27
Hello, Amber. How is everybody?

Amber Artrip:   0:31
We're doing good. We're recovering from Thanksgiving, but we are back. And we have a really great episode today that Nate and I have been looking forward to for a while. Now we're super thrilled to be joined by Jiger Shah, who is the president and co founder of Generate Capital and formerly the founder and CEO of SunEdison. He's also one of the cohosts on my favorite energy podcast, uh, the energy gang. So thank you so much for joining us today, Jiger, to share some of your thoughts and insights on the state of energy management.

Jigar Shah:   1:07
Of course, thanks for the kind words. This is gonna be great.

Amber Artrip:   1:11
Yes, we are excited to have you here and you have a ton of experience in the space. So why don't you start by telling our audience a little bit about yourself and how you got into the industry?

Jigar Shah:   1:24
Wow, that's taking me back. So this is Ah, I and I first started thinking about renewable energy when I was 16. And I started, you know, read a book that my dad had bought from one of those traveling sales people that were common in the 19 eighties. And Ah, and it's like, really turned me on to clean energy and s I went toe college And you know what? I really wanted to clean energy, and my first job out of school was to work in the wind industry and then after that, the solar industry and sell. I've been really interested in energy, technology and energy innovation for a long time. And then, you know, when I once I started sunedison and started really understanding how some of these things came together, I got even more excited. So it I've never looked back. It's It's been sucha fascinating ride.  

Nate Nilles:   2:12
Yeah, I was going to say you have seen so much change. I think back into my past, even on the solar side, right and he started earlier than I did. But thinking of all these trips to California, whether it was SP I or others where they started in a very small venue, a lot of T-shirts, a lot of flip flops, a lot of long hair then this fast progression into monster conference centers and suits and venture capitalists. So you've seen a lot of change and we're pretty influential. And in a lot of that, uh, you know, market growing quickly.

Jigar Shah:   2:44
Well, I appreciate that. I remember in 2006 industry leaders came together to reform CEO, right, because it went bankrupt and ah, and I remember being on the board in 2008. I think it wa ce and Rome Rash with came to us and said, Guys, there's only five conference centers of the entire country that can handle the size of our conference now. So we have, like, look them four years in advance.

Nate Nilles:   3:14
They were massive good parties to remember bunch of, they asked. It was it was a fun and exciting time, but it's had its lows and highs ready. Think everyone says the The solar coaster was one of my favorite ones I heard back. Yeah. No, that's right. We continue to go through those. So, considering you know, the 40% of energy consumption in the U. S. Comes from the built environment. Uh, what can corporations and really commercial real estate? And that's where we spend most of our time Ah, do to reduce their impact. There's been a lot of traditional things, but ah, any other interesting things that ah you've seen that space doing?

Jigar Shah:   3:55
Yeah. No. I think you guys have heard the answer to my this before, but in general, I don't think there's a lot of people who get super jazzed by 40% reduction of 40% of energy consumption coming from the built environment. But I mean energy efficiency and serve reducing stuff. I mean, even though it's critical to meeting a lover goals, it's not what gets people excited. I think what gets people excited is, you know, sort of learning more about how their buildings learn, use energy, right, actually being able to reduce truck rolls by be able to turn on and off loads and, you know, like turn off stuck compressor that's iced over, you know, like being able to do all that stuff remotely. That's what really turns me on, I think, is having all this information and data and kind activity at their fingertips, and then that happens to save a lot of energy. But I think what really gets people excited about technology in the space is, really, you know, figuring out how to understand what's happening in their buildings.their building.  

Nate Nilles:   4:58
So do you think that is? Because, you know, for for years and years that data that information was really, you know, maybe with one group or an operator of these buildings. But now, with modern technology, it's a lot easier for them to get access to hear all the time. You know, data rich insides pour or, you know, Hey, I've got 20 things now that I can log into, but But I'm not sure um, you know how to gain those insights is is that the shift that the other stakeholders now or have access to that data? They know it's there and and they're trying to figure out how they can participate in that impact where efficient, she just isn't the end goal Ready said, Not very exciting.

Jigar Shah:   5:41
Yeah, I think things always seem to come back to the same right. The more things change, the more things stay the same. So, you know, in the olden days when you had Seaman's and John's controls and others that were just providing building management systems and, you know, the goal was basically just make sure the lights got turned off at a certain time. And then you had people coming in saying, Oh, the set points are all wrong and they continue to go wrong and therefore we need to continue his commissioning right. And we gotta figure out how to, like, make sure that we you're very vigilant about how to make that work. Now, all of those were words because the data was trapped in the building management system and there was no dashboard by which anybody who was less than a super sophisticated building operator could access. And then, you know, Then we started giving them too much information, and they were like like you said, like, you know, so much information on if insights and they're like, Look what I don't want, all the raw data actually will hunt like, you know what you want me to do about it, right? Now you've got folks who are, um, you know, monitoring that data remotely, right. There's folks who've monitor it from a central hub and actually sent an email once a week thio the building management staff, saying, Here's the four things I would do if you really want to reduce energy consumption the most this week, right? And so you're starting to get back to a place where people can forget the building manager systems, even there the operation's air Really, between the person that sits of that, you know, sort of data hub. And it was e mailing out to the building manager. But where you are is, if there is a question from the executive staff, there's now data underpinning. You know those recommendations and we can actually validate why those recommendations were

Amber Artrip:   7:21
Yeah, I think it's really interesting. We, um, just did a research report. Was smart energy decisions on the state of energy management. We wanted to understand What are people doing? What's the majority of energy? Teens, Uh, what are they using and what processes air they executing for their further energy programs? And I was surprised to learn that 50 per 5% of respondents are still using manual process is to collect energy data.

Jigar Shah:   7:51
Yeah, well, I mean, frankly, I'm surprised that it's that high, right? That e Sorry that low. I figured, you know, be 90% right In general, I would say the vast majority people, even if they paid for all these service's continue toe, basically just look at their electricity bill to figure out what's going on.

Jigar Shah:   8:09
And, you know, I do think that there's just a level of, um, technology progress that has occurred. And we're like, in the fifth generation of it at this point, that many folks in the real estate industry have just messed.

Amber Artrip:   8:25
Yeah, and something else that we learned from them from the study is that the biggest barrier to getting tools and technology to help manage this data was ROI and building a business case. So what would your advice be to our listeners who are maybe stuck in that stage and trying to get over the hump? 

Jigar Shah:   8:44
Well, I think when you think about what has worked for software is a service which are now fully transparent, right, whether it's Oracle or S A P, your people soft before they were, they were acquired. Or, you know, all these other folks you know, they basically are focus on selling productivity out of their employee base. Right. So they're saying, you know, you could do more with a lot less employees if you actually use our software. And I think that that's where this industry is is today Attn. This stage right? Like when you look at it maintaining H v A c systems figuring out how to deal with light bulbs that have gone out like figuring out what to do with just basic maintenance. Um, you know, this software really can reduce, you know, for lack of a better word truck rolls. And so people are now saying, Okay, so we're not gonna lay anybody off by installing your software. But we are gonna get, you know, five times more productivity out of the existing staff, and we'll get to all of our tickets and all of our, you know, like sort of items that need getting thio because now people aren't wasting time on small ball stuff like cause this software is able to sort through all the tickets and say these are the most important ones to focus on. These are the ones that say the most energy and help the most people. And then, you know, you go through things in priority order. And now you know, folks are a lot happier because they're saying crash more stuff is getting done with the same month staff.

Nate Nilles:   10:14
I think that makes a lot of sense. You know, productivity savings is massive, right? In the conversations we have. But I think the one thing that I see is is maybe complimentary to that is is that we find a lot of the organizations you know, they create these mandates that create these new KP eyes and goals kind of big, ambitious goals. And that asks, are given to existing teams that already have a full time job. Right? You're saying they're busy, They're barely getting to these and, ah, they're really trying to figure out. And now how do I do more with less and you know they're able to automate that. But then take those that take that extra time and go focus on you. No other value added activities for generally high, high paid employees, right? They're not data entry, folks. Right? out of college. So we're seeing that shift quite a bit of a swell.

Jigar Shah:   11:09
Yeah, I think that's right. The other thingI'd say is that once you have all this data and you're able to process it now, you can open up their minds, right. So today they only think about their own campus or their own buildings and how you can save them money. They haven't really thought about energy optimization, right? And say, Hey, what if we shift when the air conditioning system turns on and when the lights turn on and we actually get paid by the utility company to do those shifts? Now, you're at a point where you're really providing an extraordinary amount of additional revenue streams to people by having all that data and be able to control the dispatch.  

Nate Nilles:   11:47
When I when I started thinking about all that you mentioned earlier about you, no more e r p side of it, Right? As an example, or even if I think of CR M, which may be a way bigger, um, more mature, obviously technology. But what is that tipping point? Right? Because we look at all of these customers or prospects or people that were working with, and it still is. In my opinion, you know, the goals are being set and there's a lot of corporate responsibility. It's still the minority. When I think about prioritization of projects, unless they really latch onto the productivity or some specific energy saving school, what is that tipping point that's going to take what we do in modern energy management and get it to be the norm where those pieces air prioritized as much as a tool like CR M or Air P? What is gonna make that massive shift? So it becomes, you know, the majority of teams or companies that are using similar attacks?

Jigar Shah:   12:43
Well, I think it's moving away from energy efficiency, right? This is the thing is, energy efficiency has been the hallmark or the actual primary feature that these systems were sold by. But that's actually just not the most compelling reason to have one. Right. If you're a sustainability manager, you just need the data, right? If you're ah, university president, that's that said that we're gonna be net zero carbon. Well, you know, you start the journey to net zero carbon by really understanding how you use energy, right? Like all of these pieces which is really around information and providing the right information to the executives to be able to make good decisions is the reason you have this software. And sure, it gets paid for by the energy savings. And so it's practically free after you account for the energy savings. But I just think that, like, right now we're selling it based energy savings when we should be selling it. Based on why don't you know all this stuff about your building? Like, what is it about your building and the health of your buildings? It you don't think it's quarter your business right in your mission.

Nate Nilles:   13:46
I think you touched on a big one. Their health, right? We see the big wellbeing peace and attracting the right talent being more more competitive. But yeah, I would agree with that. It and we're starting to get those inbounds. That is really How do I correlate all this other interesting data that's specific to my building. My portfolio Ah, that correlates to energy. So I think some of those pieces maybe for another broad guest when we have it, we can go through and in detail, but ah, it Ah, it is. It is changing quite quickly.

Jigar Shah:   14:20
Sure, No, we totally get it. And so I I agree with you. I just think that, um yeah, Like I said, I think I think selling these tools based on energy savings is tough. I think it's really based on making decisionmakers' life a lot easier and giving them access to the data they need. Toe make these really important distinctions, for they're bored and they're executive team.

Amber Artrip:   14:44
So, switching gears a little bit in your opinion, Jigar. What do you think the future of energy management in 2020 and beyond looks like what's next.

Jigar Shah:   14:57
I mean, my sense is that energy management really is the gateway to, uh to the rest of of people's goals right today, I think, given the focus on climate change and the focus on greenhouse gas emissions are the things like it feels to me like, Ah, people need to characterize what it is that's possible, right? Energy management does that, and sometimes you can do it with lighting retrofits, and then you don't pay for him both that way. But it feels like that's the first step, right? And then it's pretty easy when you have an engine management system to say. Okay, great. What do we do first? When we do second, what do we do? Third, you know, and how does the building even work together as an organism, Right. So can we cut the cost of our A tree a C system by making it half besides, right? Did we oversize that system? Did we oversize some of the other systems in the building? Right. And a lot of that, um, you know, comes from just having a clear data set. And I think for a long time, people were just very interested in, you know, static audits or things like that. And then they were really focused on, you know, subsidized. The escort business was focused on subsidizing things that building managers want it right. New windows, new expensive. H J C systems, new chillers. What? Not today. I think that that's just being completely flipped on its head. And people are realizing that this is not just a way to subsidize, you know, a big, expensive piece of upgrades that you know are really this is really thought of is a cost effective payback type framework, but it's actually just a way to manage your real estate, right? And I think that's where um, I think that's where we're headed. Um, and I think that I frankly think that the climate change the climate emergency at this point is really

Nate Nilles:   16:47
driving that. So do you think that peace is moving? You know, you think about climate change, that emergency, right? As you stated, that pushes moving quicker than modern technology, and we're kind of at the mercy because there are some interesting things, but they may or may not be cost effective yet, but I'm seeing this, you know, um, conflict right between the two. A lot of people are really interested and want to move, but maybe it's not quite there from a technology perspective yet. Or maybe it's not quite affordable, right? For the mass that want to adopt as they're moving, maybe towards more of Ah, net zero goal.

Jigar Shah:   17:32
Yeah. So I guess what I'd say is, I mean, given where generate capital is and it's, um, maturation. And in some of the other competitors that we have out there, um, at this point I can confidently say that every building and every set of buildings in the country can go Nat zero right. It really is not a burden to go Ned zero. Now it may require a 30 year time frame or a 40 year time frame by which to pay it off in all those things. But the technology is not missing anymore, right? You might say, Well, this would be cheaper. And if we were redesigning the building, we would do it differently. And so there's some complexity in there, but I think what you'll find from like the New York City green your deal legislation that got passed in D. C. Is copied it, um, that all of these small building owners, they're complaining right now when 2024 comes around and they have penalties that they're gonna be assessed, um, it's gonna be magic. How easy and fast it is for them to comply. All of a sudden, they're going to discover a pot of money.a sudden, they're going to discover a pot of money. Yeah, they're gonna be like, Oh, wow, this was so much easier and so much faster than I thought it would be. I thought this would be impossible. I thought the technology wasn't available, I could just use face change materials. Or I could just use, you know, advanced. Um, you know, on demand water heating. Or I could just use, you know, geothermal heat loops. Or I can use whatever the technology is. There's just so many solutions out there right now, and folks are just not keeping their eyes on the prize. And I think a lot of this regulation is forcing people to confront, you know, the progress that we've really made.

:   18:34

Nate Nilles:   19:06
That makes a lot of sense. And, you know, sometimes it, unfortunately, takes a penalty to make people shift priority if it wasn't something that was already getting funded. But, hey, we'll take it however we can get it.

Jigar Shah:   19:21
Yeah, well, you know, that's that's how this goes, I will say, Though not unlike the solar industry days, I do think the energy efficiency industry needs to drive its own narrative. And I do think that, you know, if it if it doesn't drive its own narrative than, um, it's subjecting itself to the whims of, you know, sort of public opinion. Like, for instance, I think we should get rid of the word energy efficiency we should only be using the word energy optimization. Um, because I just think energy efficiency evokes sort of, Ah, sacrifice is, like, sort of the thought process there. And what we're talking about is not sacrifice. Um, and so I think we should be using energy optimization. I think we should really be careful about what words we use and what you know, like features were pushing because I think it really does matter, and that's what's gonna make it go

Nate Nilles:   20:12
mainstream. Actually, that one is really, really interesting, right? When you think about just the perception or controlling the narrative, because to me, when I hear optimization, you're right. It sounds like continuous right? It sounds like, Ah, it's more pro climates, right? And getting better with the resource is that we have, as opposed to as we talked about earlier, a means to an end. Right? Here's the goal. We're gonna get to. We put something in place and it's done. There's an ending point, right? And the other one, it's it's there's no ending point. It's just part of your daily workflow.

Jigar Shah:   20:44
Yeah, no, I think that's right. So I'm pretty excited about where we can head. And I also think that a lot of these energy management systems are gonna turn out that they're gonna integrate electric vehicle charging algorithms and they'll have these little modules that get attached to the underground system so that a lot of these other disparate software packages that people are working with now we'll all get integrated into the same thing. And so you know, transport and the way we charge our transport, you know, the way we use that for energy optimization on dumb coordination with the grid. I just think you're going to see that this brain in the center will become more and more and more powerful.

Nate Nilles:   21:25
Is there anything else that you're seeing that piques your interest from a policy perspective when we think about maybe commercial buildings that is going to continue to accelerate folks as they move into their energy, I'll say now, optimization journey.

Jigar Shah:   21:43
Well, frankly, I think it's gonna be mandates. I think for 40 years, utility companies have said, you know what? We're gonna give you these rebates or subsidies or whatnot. We're gonna help you do this and that whatever. And it has never worked. And so people have used rebates to do things, which is great, but it's never actually allowed the market to take off. It's never hit escape velocity, and so you just have to keep giving people more money and rebates and incentives. And I think there's a lot of folks in, you know, these markets were saying, Look, we're spending $89 billion a year in these subsidies and we could use that money for more cost effectively by really promoting a lot of this building optimization energy optimization software, which you know frankly, nine billion could almost pay for every single customer in the country to get this software and then, you know, figuring out how to get all these measures financed and deployed and what not, But they don't really need subsidies to do that right. What they really need is mandates, and we just need to give a lot of these Building owners are swift kick in the pants because at this point that it's been proven We have so many lighthouse projects. We have so many examples in case studies of people who've done this successfully, to the point where in my home county here in Montgomery County in Maryland. We've declared a climate emergency. We're supposed to have an 80% reduction of carbon emissions by 2027 and they're not doing anything, I would say hardly anything, particularly in the building space to get things done. They're so afraid of building owners. And I keep telling him I'm just like, just do it, get it done because I guarantee you that the building owners just haven't spent any time thinking about how easy it is to comply. 

Nate Nilles:   23:26
So why is it on that? And that one is? You know, I guess it's not surprising, but But nevertheless, I think when I was listening to the energy gang, you guys had won the new paradigm for energy efficiency, and you had made a comment about the vast number of government and policymakers really don't believe that they can accomplish these reduction goals. So how do you Where's the switch? There, too, go from setting those lofty goals that you're saying nobody is, is taken action on verse, pushing and getting a mandate through how we're gonna motivate those policy makers to be even more aggressive on that.

Amber Artrip:   24:05
It's always about economic development, like the reason my

Jigar Shah:   24:08
solar has gotten so much mandate support is because every time a governor passes a law even in Louisiana, right, which passed a pretty important one back in 2010 11 there was literally an immediate reaction. 50 new companies, 500 new employees, right, like 5000 new homes and businesses and whatever that puts all around them. And so there was just literally an immediate injection of $100 million into the economy, right? Which is what a governor wants to see when they pass policy. And I think that that hasn't been true in the past with energy efficiency. And I think that's changing

Nate Nilles:   24:48
so jigger I have, ah, one that I think is really interesting and and do quite a bit of reading on, but a I right, we see a I coming up in a lot of different industries, but specific, too, uh, commercial buildings. And I know it's still in its infancy stage in a lot of pieces. But when you look at a I, what gets you excited and you know how big of an impact do you see that making? Because I think there's some ah ah lot of different ways. You can look at it even from taking rolls away from certain people that are working in buildings today, but even allowing us to optimize even faster.

Amber Artrip:   25:24
So I don't

Jigar Shah:   25:25
know that I get super excited about words like artificial intelligence for machine learning or Blockchain. Whatever other buzzword the venture capitalists wanted fun these days. I would say it's really more just court of the business, right? Like every year we want your software to get better and better and better, right? And that means the insights have to be better and better and better, and the ability for the software toe. Save more money and do more things that have more features. Have to get better, right? And I think a I is just part of that, right? So figuring out how to take all these disparate pieces of information not just from the buildings but also from weather data to you know, for instance, how de carbonized the greatness. So today you have the ability in California to know exactly what the CO two is off the grid at the moment at every given moment, right? So you could say Well, actually, I have the ability to schedule this load at a time when the grid is the least carbon intensive, right? As opposed to, um, just doing it whenever you know the wholesale prices of the cheapest right? And so so like to me, A. I is really about saying you can start putting in all of your preferences and you know, you could basically get more advanced insights around what it is that you want and what the patterns are and figuring out this these higher levels of pattern recognition, right? Like you mean. One of those big data insights everyone talks about is, you know, this is why CVS puts diapers next to beer because men you go and Steve yesterday by diapers like you know, often buy beer. And so, like, it's a lot of this insight stuff that you sort of like get driven. So I think a I is super important. Don't get me wrong, and I'm a huge fan of all the innovation that's happening there. But I think it's just a buzzword for continuous improvement of, you know, the sophistication of this software

Nate Nilles:   27:28
that makes sense. I heard something a little bit different to from the way that you described it. It really was customization or tailoring. The experience for the user's so much like how most of it is is flourishing in our personal out. It's just gonna be giving that unique user experience for their Taylor need in in that space. So that makes a lot of sense. Totally

Amber Artrip:   27:54
So Jiger, we're coming towards the end of our time here. In the last question we always like to ask every one of our guests is what tips and or advice would you give to our listeners, who are energy and sustainability professionals on how to make an impact at their org. 

Jigar Shah:   28:14
So I think that, you know, most professionals that I meet with have been relegated to believing that they're not sort of the core part of the organizations that they're part of that. They're basically some sort of, um, necessary sort of, you know, position, but not really court Thio, the profitability, the company, the success of the company, the retention of the employees, right, And I would say that that is changing 180 degrees. And so one of the things that I would just make sure that people recognize is that you're gonna get super important super fast, right? People actually want to know what your insights are and what it is that you can do to help make the place that you work. Um, greener, right, More sustainable, save money, but also just, like, be a better place to work. And so if you're not used to that level of attention, I think you better start preparing yourself for it because I think you're gonna start getting called on by the teacher in the front of the class here. Pretty soon,

Amber Artrip:   29:20
we're already seeing it happen. A lot of VP sustainability are now becoming, you know, workplace professionals and energy professionals. So that's definitely I see that happening

Jigar Shah:   29:33
totally. But I would take it one step further is I think they're V. P's of sustainability who are on track to becoming the next CEO of the company, right? It used to be that if you were on track to being the VP of sustainability, you were on the track to basically being in the mother in Law suite, right? That's sort of where they gave you a fancy title. But you know, you are no longer important to the business today. The VP of say, ability is so central to the success of the company that a VP of sustainability that takes their job really seriously is on track to becoming the CEO of the company.

Nate Nilles:   30:06
That's awesome. That's firing me up. I know that. I think that's a really interesting dynamic, right, because having a seat at the table because what they're doing now is making such an impact on the business end and kind of moving forward, moving back to what you had mentioned about optimization, right? And those pieces. But it's it's gonna be mission critical to not just efficiency but the occupants in general rent. So that's all.

Jigar Shah:   30:32
So just just turning the tables for a second. You know, I know you guys were already in over 130 you know, universities and other clients. Really, you know, that have these wide enterprise deployments for you guys. I'm just curious whether you're seeing on overlap between your clients and the use of your software and their own climate goals and their own sort of like we are still in announcements and and all that stuff. And if you've seen some of that convergence

Amber Artrip:   31:01
Yeah. So we are. We are seeing that Jiger. We're seeing a lot of, our customers using our reports and screen grabs of our dashboards and data from our from our system in there. Um, CSR reports, and there s G reports and using a lot of that information in their mandated sustainability reporting. So it's exciting. It's exciting to see that. Nate, I don't know if you have anything else to add.

Nate Nilles:   31:30
Yeah, you know, in some of them and some of the earlier podcast we've done, I think it was in Ah, we were stayed as well as Gonzaga. But, you know, jigger, you mentioned a seat at the table. What really resonates for me there is is we have folks that were either directors of sustainability or energy managers and really kind of wear that on the outside looking in and the trend that we've seen as as these mandates have been put forward, right, And they really have the sponsorship from the president of the university. Aah! These folks were getting called into the boardroom right there. They have a seat of the table there, instrumental in the delivery or the communication both to students to faculty, to the community. And we're seeing a lot even beyond the university and communicating that to the city of which they're in. A lot of these universities, right? They are college towns, and so having a seat at the table of being instrumental and how they deliver their success and even more so in how those programs are continuing to get additional funding has been really, really fun to watch.

Amber Artrip:   32:36
I would just add on. It's also been fun to see a lot of our customers rise in their careers. I'm thinking of Sara Neff, who was on the podcast, and you know Kilroy Realty Corporation had a mandate to become net zero in a year and 1/2. I think it wasin that zero by 2020 and you know, Sarah rose the challenge and they're doing it and it's really cool to see

Jigar Shah:   33:04
Well, it's really inspiring, right? And and that is, I think, what's possible today. And I think when you look at what's been accomplished by a lot of the large tech companies, a lot of large Fortune 500 companies, I do think that you know, folks air using dates that are far out like 2030 or 2040 just to, like, give themselves more time. But I think for the folks who are really serious using your software, I think they can really achieve their goals much faster.  

Nate Nilles:   33:29
You gotta put a stake in the sand. That's right. 

Amber Artrip:   33:34
Well, thank you so much Jigar for joining the show. It was a really great conversation and can't thank you enough for joining us.

Jigar Shah:   33:41
My pleasure. I am learning so much about your space because we're deploying, you know, very large deployments of, ah, building management systems right now and just super excited about working with you guys and and others in the space.

Amber Artrip:   33:55
Well, if I know anything about this, this industry ah, lot will change in the next six months. So hopefully we'll have you back on soon to talk about what's new and energy management.  

Jigar Shah:   34:06
Look forward to it

Amber Artrip:   34:08
Awesome. And for all of you listeners out there, this is the modern energy management podcast. The podcast is available wherever you get your podcasts. And be sure to leave us a review. If you like what you hear on the Apple podcast store, we would appreciate it. Uh, you can subscribe at modern energy management, Doc. Oh, and until then, we will be back next week with another great modern energy management story for you. Take care.