364 | Celebrating 20 Years as Community of Christ

Listen to the candid and inspiring stories of how the Spirit moved among the people and leadership as we embraced our name, Community of Christ. Two retired General Officers share the inside story as well as their personal journeys of awakening to what was being birthed among us.

Host: Robin Linkhart
Guest: Danny Belrose and Ken McLaughlin

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Intro and Outro music used with permission:

“For Everyone Born,” Community of Christ Sings #285. Music © 2006 Brian Mann, admin. General Board of Global Ministries t/a GBGMusik, 458 Ponce de Leon Avenue, Atlanta, GA 30308. copyright@umcmission.org

All music for this episode was performed by Dr. Jan Kraybill, and produced by Chad Godfrey.

NOTE: The series that make up the Project Zion Podcast explore the unique spiritual and theological gifts Community of Christ offers for today's world. Although Project Zion Podcast is a Ministry of Community of Christ. The views and opinions expressed in this episode are those speaking and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of Community of Christ.

Episode: 364 | Celebrating 20 Years as Community of Christ

Project Zion Podcast

Josh Mangelson 00:17

Welcome to the Project Zion Podcast. This podcast explores the unique spiritual and theological gifts Community of Christ offers for today's world.

Robin Linkhart 00:33

Hello, and welcome to Project Zion Podcast. This is your host Robin Linkhart. And today's episode is dedicated to the 20th anniversary of a name change. The day the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints became known to the world as Community of Christ. To tell us the story of that journey, we welcome two very special guests, Danny Belrose and Ken McLaughlin. Danny A. Belrose is an amateur poet and artist. He holds a master of theology degree and a doctor of ministry degree from St. Stephen's College in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada, and is the author of "Let the Spirit Breathe," "Wave Offerings," "Vulnerable to Grace," "Portraits, Profiles and Prayers," and several hymn texts in Community of Christ Sings hymnal published in 2013. Prior to church appointment in 1981, Danny was employed with the Hudson's Bay Company of Canada as assistant advertisement manager in Toronto, advertisement manager in Regina, Saskatchewan, and special events manager in Winnipeg, Manitoba. Danny was ordained a President of Seventy in 1992, member of the Council of 12 apostles in 1994, and as Presiding Evangelist in 2000. A native of Sarnia, Ontario, Canada, Danny lives in Independence, Missouri, with his wife, Penelope. They are parents, grandparents and great-grandparents. Their three daughters, Beth Morden, deceased, Carrie Peter, and Heather Moore reside in Canada. Kenneth L. McLaughlin, a native of Columbus, Ohio, has been a member of the Community of Christ for over 60 years, and an ordained minister for over 50. He has served the church in almost every local leadership position, as well as a mission center president and financial officer. Ken holds a Bachelor of Science and Education degree from Ohio State, a Master of Arts in religion from Park University, and a juris doctorate from the Moritz College of Law at Ohio State. His professional career includes teaching at the high school level, and as an adjunct at the university level, as an assistant attorney general of Ohio and administrative law judge, and for almost 25 years as a full time minister with Community of Christ. He was called into the Council of 12 apostles in 1994. Following retirement, Ken served as a professional fundraiser and consultant. He has been married 44 years to Dr. Suzanne Trewhitt currently on staff at Rockhurst University. They have two adult children and four grandchildren. Welcome, Ken and Danny. We're so happy to have you with us today.

Ken McLaughlin 04:02

Thank you, Robin.

Danny Belrose 04:03

Great to be here. Appreciate it.

Robin Linkhart 04:06

All righty. Well, before we dive into our topic today, I want to give our listeners a chance to get to know you both just a little bit better. And of course one or two juicy tidbits are always welcome here at Project Zion Podcast. So, Danny, why don't you start us off?

Danny Belrose 04:25

Juicy tidbits. I'm not sure I can provide too many juicy ones. You mentioned the fact that my family was in Canada and I'm a dual citizen making it much difficult to get home to see the kids right now because of COVID situation. Let's see. I'm both a serious person and a not serious person. And I guess I would say that I use my humor in many respects, as a way to get to know people and people get to know me. I also use it as a bit of a shield to be frank about it. If you want to lay me on the couch and do some analysis, it also protects me at times from people getting too close and knowing too much. So that's all I'm gonna say right now. No. I enjoyed my ministry in the church. And looking forward to this interview. I don't know if I can give you the juicy stuff or not. That may come later. Don't, don't be disappointed. I can give you some stuff, particularly on Ken.

Robin Linkhart 05:27

I bet you can. But that'll work just fine for now, though, Danny. Thank you. Ken.

Ken McLaughlin 05:33

Well, it is true, Robin, that Danny and his wife, Penelope, and my wife, Sue and myself, are traveling companions. We have been traveling nationally and internationally together on various vacations. We've missed doing that a great deal. But we do have a little October trip to the Gulf Coast, planned in Florida, which will be fun. And our most momentous single 24-hour period traveling was when several of us, I won't say who, had a wicked 24-hour virus while visiting in Yellowstone and the surrounding areas there. Danny would not like me to give the details of that.

Danny Belrose 06:15

No, that's a juicy story that we don't want to go into, Ken.

Ken McLaughlin 06:19

It's really just too much for the podcast.

Danny Belrose 06:21

It is. It is.

Robin Linkhart 06:23

Alright. Well, thank you so much. And I know our listeners are really appreciating this little tiny window of getting to know you just a bit better. So, as I mentioned in our opener, this episode commemorates the 20th anniversary of the name Community of Christ. We're actually recording this interview in March of 2021. And this episode will post next month on April 6, the 20 year anniversary to the day that our name Community of Christ became official. The official legislative action took place roughly a year before that. But it was a much longer journey that some might think, when would this ever happen? Both of you had a front row seat in the Council of 12 for significant portions of that adventure. So let's start with this question. When did the first rumblings of things like maybe we should think about a different name begin to emerge? And, from your perspective, why was that even a question? Ken, you want to start first on that question?

Ken McLaughlin 07:39

I think, Robin, that the rumblings began before any of us were together for a larger rumbling, if you will, to keep that language in play. I think a lot of folks that were around the tables of leadership at that time, had sensed for a good number of years, that there was a certain inadequacy to the, to the named Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, it had served us well. But somehow as the, our emerging understanding of God's call to the church became clearer, it was, at, at least in my mind, I will speak for myself at this point, at least in my mind, it was time for something that made more sense for the era in which we live. I do recall saying at some of the meetings farther down the road, that I hope someday some brave group of women and men will also, if need be, change the name from Community of Christ to something else, if that is more fitting for where the church is on its journey. My personal rumbling began at the corner of 22nd and Reinhardt in Columbus, Ohio, in front of the South Columbus, Ohio, church that I attended as a child and teenager. It was a strong, large congregation. On the front of that brick building was a, what I believe was a bronze or bronze looking plaque with the name of the church on it--Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I remember at a pretty young age looking at that, shaking my head and thinking there's got to be a better way to identify ourselves than something that sounds like it was concocted through, through not being able to get the name we really wanted or something like that. And even as a kid, Latter Day Saints just didn't mean anything to me. It eventually came to mean dispensationalism which was nothing that the church is associated with it anymore. And so I guess that would be my personal experience. And I didn't hesitate in Council of 12 sessions and in formal or informal sessions of leaders to talk about the need for us to address them at the right time.

Danny Belrose 10:00

I think, I think I would add to that, Ken and Robin, that this was not a top down issue really, in my in my perspective. It, the rumbling began a long time ago, I think there were people always really a little off guard when they would give the name of the church. And then it would be immediately identified as our cousins of Western Utah. And I can remember going to a retreat, and this would be back, probably in 1979, somewhere in there, retreat and up in Canada, where I was living. And Ruby Ward, I don't know if you'd ever, I guess you wouldn't have met Ruby. Ruby's a wonderful gal. I was at this retreat, and Ruby came to me, it was just on the, we were moving up to one of the conferences. And she said, Danny, she said, I'm going to, I'm going to put a motion in to, to change the name of the church. I said, Oh, that's interesting. Would you, will you support that. I said, Well, what name did you have in mind? And she gave me a name. I can't recall what it was. It was, it was a new name. There's no question about that. I said, Well, will you, when you give that name, are you expecting people to say, Well, I've never heard of that church? Who are you? Well, we used to be the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. And I thought, hmm, so how do we respond even if the church's name has changed, and I was, quite frankly, in favor of a change of the church's name, even back then earlier. But I remember Ruby smiling at me saying, well, that's a good point. Another little added, maybe not juicy thing, but I can mention our travels together. Was it Nova Scotia, Ken, that we stayed overnight in a home. (Yes.) And we were, at the morning breakfast, that last morning we were there, the hostess came and she said, Well, would you sign, sign our book here? My, my welcome book. I have everybody sign that. Well, I, we had ministers here last weekend. And one of them wrote me a poem. And I said, Well, we happen to be ministers as well. But we're not going to write you a poem. Oh, she said, what church? And I smiled and said, the Community of Christ. And she said, Mormon? And this was in Nova Scotia, wasn't it Ken? Am I right on that? (Yeah, it was Nova Scotia.) Well, we don't have much of a presence in Nova Scotia, but going from Community of Christ to Mormon, the same response that we've been given earlier. I remember coming back from that trip, and I walked into Wally, President Smith's office, and I told him the anecdote, this little story. He looked up at me and said, Well, back to the drawing board.

Ken McLaughlin 12:44

You know, Robin, I might add to that, too that, that, and we'll get to this later in the podcast, I think, but I remember that even, for myself in 1977, 78, 79, about in that era, I thought that the name we would probably land on was Saints Church. That would simply be a two word name. And Community of Christ had certainly not entered my mind. And I would say many of the rumblings did not necessarily have a name attached to it. Danny, would you say the same? (Yes.)

Danny Belrose 13:20

(Yeah.) Just a sense of no fit or something that needed to be changed. People just wanting that. So I think it was more of a bottom up. Certainly, the official leaders made a response to that. But I think it was, it was current, even in the minds of many people way before it was considered visually.

Robin Linkhart 13:44

Very interesting. So we know that leadership brought this to the conference, World Conference in 2000. But there were events that led up to that. So tell us about those years preceding 2000 when we've, we've heard you talk about how personally and as a community across the globe, that there were rumblings and conversations about this many, many, many years before 2000. When did it really bubble up to the, the leading quorums of the church and what were the events that brought us to the year 2000.

Danny Belrose 14:29

Okay, give us a quick thumbnail sketch of Estes Park because I think that's the occasion where it really became an item of consideration in an official way.

Ken McLaughlin 14:42

Robin, one of, one of the highlights for me during my entire tenure in the Council of 12, and in world church leadership at the mission center level and at the, at the denomination level, had to be what I would call the Estes Park experience. I wish I could give you a precise year for that. I don't keep a diary in that sense and maybe your research has turned up what that year would be, I don't know. Or maybe Danny knows it off the top. But he and I were among the less senior members of the Council of 12. And it was like, like all of the times in which I served as in the council, it was a very congenial time, even those who held different views from myself, we found a way to have lovely camaraderie. And we also had, because of the luxury of a bit larger budget than, than now constrains the church, we went to the YMCA of the Rockies, which is just outside Estes Park, and not far, Robin, from where you have lived for quite a long time. And just a magnificent spot. It's one of the few places I've been told where there's a lot of open land and you can look every direction to see the Rocky Mountains. And so we were in that experience. Danny, help me with my recollection, I believe that among, among a normal agenda that the world church leaders would handle, there was also, there were also two items there that were one which was quite a part of the agenda, and one, which was much more serendipitous in its exploration. The first one was trying to see if we could come to some consensus on a new mission set, mission statement for the church. Mission statements were, were kind of a big deal then. And the one that the church had been using was incredibly wordy. It was beautifully done. But it was not memorizable. It was not concise and clean and precise. And it required much too high of an educational level in order to explore it. And so that was in play, but also, and that I believe more a part of the agenda, but also at play then was, Is this the appropriate time then to talk right in the same breath as that as what a name change might be in terms of its timeliness and what the words themselves actually might be? We laughed a lot that week, we had, we all had, uh, were assigned roommates. I remember that Alex Katava, the president of the Council of 12, was mine. We just had a great time there as well. And so when we began the discussions of what a mission center might be, I felt strongly that the role I could play was to constantly remind my colleagues, that whatever we come up with had to be memorizable, and by a group of Sunday school children standing up in front of the congregation. Six year olds, seven year olds, saying what this mission statement was, if their diligent Sunday school teacher wanted to have them memorize it. And that was just something that I remember saying over and over again, in the course of the discussion, that's too long, that's too complicated. Our identity should be able to be concisely contained in a few words. And so I'll let Danny kind of inject here. This was towards the beginning of the week, with some pretty intense sessions around that before we moved into the more serendipitous time of church name change.

Danny Belrose 18:55

Yeah, I would, I would agree that this, the name change itself at the church was really serendipitous. I think it kind of rode on the discussion that you just had about the mission center, mission statement. And as I recall, it was in the evening that we, we discussed that, that, that just came to the surface and began to talk about the possibility of looking at a name change. Now, just a swing up, I want you to know, Robin, just how holy this weekend was. Ken has mentioned that we had a good time and laughed a lot. There was another business group in the next room over from us and you could hear the music they were playing occasionally. They were, I don't know what their, what they were, but they were playing various music items. And during the time when we were considering calls to the priesthood, next door broke out with YMCA and two of the apostles who will remain nameless, began to do the YMCA motions, and everyone, most of them joined in. I don't know if Wally knew all the words or not, but we, everybody joined in and had a good laugh. But going back to the, the name, it, it was serendipitous. I remember that, as we kind of rolled around with possibilities. And it was a good time to, to do that in that kind of atmosphere. Yes, it's, it was an important decision to make. But I do recall that when Wally, when President Smith said, What about Community of Christ, and it just it, it just rolled out. And we just jumped on that as I recall. I think Norm was who was Presiding Bishop went out immediately, as I recall, and you can correct me on this Ken went out immediately to see if he could secure the rights for that name if it was possibly used. Do you recall that?

Ken McLaughlin 20:47

I think that's correct. And I think, Danny, that you're right, it was in one of our evening sessions. We have the raucous group next door that actually provided us a good service through comic relief, even though that was not their aim. My guess would be they might have had some liquid adult refreshments that were helping them along the way. And while that was going on, it's true that President Smith, Wally, was the first one to put the words together. But they didn't all just come from him. It came from people in the room, putting together combinations of words. And Wally was very actively engaged in this. He was not just letting, I mean he was participating, not so much in a hierarchical leadership fashion as struggling with a group of people to help give birth to something to, together. And the same thing was true earlier in the week, when we finally came up with the words proclaim and promote in order to be more memorizable, and to also feed off the communities of joy initiatives going on in the church, and then playing off of the Advent themes every year of joy, hope, love and peace. They rotate in order every year. Those of you that are not familiar with the revised common lectionary. It's not joy, hope, love and peace every Advent season which makes it, I think, wonderful from a worship perspective. But when we finally had joy, hope, love and peace, and communities of joy and when all that got linked to proclaiming and promoting we were, I'm going to use the term we were on a spiritual roll.

Danny Belrose 22:43

Yes.

Ken McLaughlin 22:44

And that's when we went ahead and had, I don't know if it was the next evening session, but later in the week, the more serious session broken up by the fun next door, where we went on to the name change issue. (Yeah.)

Danny Belrose 23:03

Even though there was as a, as Ken and I had said, there was certainly a lot of laughter and companionship there, comraderie, colleagues, but, and I don't want to over declare this or make it too mystical, but I remember being very struck when Wally did finally say Community of Christ, and I made, it's just my recollection, but it seems to me that we went silent at that moment. Just, you know, good discussion going on and suddenly he comes out with Community of Christ. And I remember this, there's just a sense of silence there for a moment, as we, as we got a hold of that. And I don't, again I don't want to over dramatize that, but that was how I felt at the moment that there was, there was more to this than just discussion, shall we say, as Ken said, we were moved to a point where I think we were struggling and yet there was a sense of relief, if you will, when that name kind of rolled out.

Ken McLaughlin 24:01

Yep. Robin, what was going on for me in the background of all this, I don't mind sharing this at all, but Danny, and I do both right hymn texts. And actually in the new book, I actually have a hymn tune, which I'm very proud of because I never thought I would author or compose a tune as well. Some hymn text writers work from the words and then move into what text fits it. That's often what Danny does. I'm the reverse of that. I have a tune in my head and I write to the meter of the tune. And so I already knew that I wanted to write something to Darwell's 148th which is the name of the tune that goes (humming) so that was already in my mind. And all week after we had come up with, starting that about, Danny I'm going to say Tuesday's maybe when, when the Mission Statement finally jelled, I went right to work, putting together, uh, Community of Joy, which is the name of the, of the hymn that I wrote. And I wrote the first four verses, not to perfection, but very close while at Estes Park, because I remember saying to Alex Katava, my, like I said, my roommate that week, I remember saying to him, Alex, I need a two syllable word that, that says, and then whatever the phrase was that I was hung up on, and he went did something else and he came back with a four syllable word. And I went, Alex, Alex, Alex. You don't understand. We're writing a hymn tune to a meter here. You have two syllables to work with, and nothing more. And he goes, Well then I got nothing for you. And so the first four verses of the five, that five verse hymn were written there at Estes Park, and the fifth verse was written during the World Conference where the name change was approved. (Yeah.) So that's a bit of history on that hymn. It's 631 in Community of Christ Sings.

Danny Belrose 26:09

Yeah. Uh, just a, just a correction, Ken. (Yes.) I do almost what you do. I go to, I write to the melody first. But one of my hymns, a Christmas hymn

Ken McLaughlin 26:22

It's number 430 in the, in the Community of Christ Sings. It's my favorite of all of the work that Danny and I have done and combine the two of us have written probably 80 or so hymn texts, even though the church hasn't seen all of those. But he's exactly right. This, this Christmas carol is properly called In a Stable Wrapped in Starlight, and so it often gets overlooked. But if Danny, God forbid, dies around Christmas time or myself, that's going to be at the memorial service.

Robin Linkhart 26:53

Well, I'm glad you brought up hymnody because we're going to talk about that a little bit later on. So we're hearing some eyewitness accounts of this gathering of world church leaders in Estes Park. My records show that that happened in September, 1994. So you two had been on the Council of 12 for about five months.

Ken McLaughlin 27:19

Yeah, we, we were the, we were the young guys, I think at that time. (Yeah.)

Danny Belrose 27:23

You, Ken, and, uh, uh

Robin Linkhart 27:26

Dale Luffman.

Danny Belrose 27:26

Dale Luffman. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Robin Linkhart 27:29

Yeah. And the mission statement that was finished when you left Estes Park, is that correct?

Ken McLaughlin 27:36

I think pretty well. (Yeah.) Pretty much. Yeah.

Robin Linkhart 27:39

And that was We proclaim Jesus Christ and promote communities of joy, hope, love and peace. Easy to memorize and very, very meaningful to the life of the church. So that was

Ken McLaughlin 27:54

Robin, I think was helpful for today. I think it's slowly becoming replaced with Christ's Mission, Our Mission, which is terrific--four words. (Yeah. Yeah.) Which is, which is wonderful. And two of the words repeat. And so, yeah, kudos to the leaders who put that together after us.

Danny Belrose 28:16

I'm thinking and I may be jumping ahead, Robin, a little bit to when they were working with the PR group that was helping design the, the name of the church with a proper font, or at least a font they were suggesting. They were quite, I think they were, but maybe it was from our side as well, they were at one point eager to have a tagline. You remember that, Ken? (To Zion for all.) Yeah, and it didn't really go over well. I mean, it just didn't fit, recognizing the various interpretations, modern interpretations, and understanding the word Zion. And eventually we came down on that by saying, No, we don't, we don't want a tagline. We just, we'll just leave it Community of Christ and, so.

Robin Linkhart 28:57

Yes, the simplicity and power of three words. So we go from 1994, we come out with a mission statement. And six years later, we're at World Conference 2000. Is there anything that happened in between, during that interim time, that helps bring us to that World Conference?

Danny Belrose 29:25

Well, I guess I'm thinking of the resource I think you mentioned, when you were chatting on the phone with me, Called by a New Name. I think that was produced during that period of time where there were various groups, committees, whatever. I think, Ken, you may have been in charge of the one committee, were you're not?

Ken McLaughlin 29:44

Well, and this is where it gets fuzzy for me, Robin, and I think the reason for that is, I believe that a lot of what was in that four year interim was in the hands of the First Presidency and not the Council of 12. My guess would be you would have to talk to the members of the presidency of that era. Perhaps there was a bit of apprehension, or trying to discern the right time. Perhaps the three of them were not in complete accord as to some piece of this. I do not know. And I have never asked, to be candid. So, even though these gentlemen are still alive and would probably share what they felt could be disclosed publicly, I don't know. Danny, do you know?

Danny Belrose 30:39

No, I don't. Not really.

Robin Linkhart 30:42

So we do know, I believe at World Conference 1998, we had some resolutions from the floor having to do with the name change. So it was beginning to bubble up from the membership. And going into World Conference 2000, I, my memory does not reveal to me in the moment whether or not we knew ahead of time that that was going to come to the conference. And I don't recall that we did. So, we're at World Conference 2000, and it is brought to the body. How would you all describe the journey of the people of the church as we wrestled with the possibility of changing our name? And, of course, the legislative body did take that under consideration and vote as to whether or not we were going to do that. So your experience at that conference, as you witnessed the proceedings, that, the conversation and dialogue and the vote and then walking out of that World Conference and beginning to live into the reality that we would begin to prepare for this to happen?

Danny Belrose 31:57

Well, Ken, you may want to correct because my, quite frankly, my memory on this is a bit foggy as well. I don't recall it being a controversial issue, a heated issue, let's put it that way, because we've had that those kinds of discussions and that's who we are as a people, to agree and disagree and and somehow come together in terms of either faithful disagreement or otherwise. But I don't recall it being a particularly hot issue, that is best I can say. I mean, I felt personally very good about it. And, but I don't recall again any great animosity. There was, there was, there were some who were opposed certainly, wanted to hold on to what they think is, is a, is the name of the church, quote, unquote. Ken you, I mean

Ken McLaughlin 32:47

I have, I have some memories. It's difficult sometimes to hang on to memories of World Conference because it passes as a blur more than I would have ever guessed once I became a general officer of the of the church. I do recall, Robin, that prior to 2000, from 1994 to 1999, I had an assignment that was the only international piece of it was the state of Hawaii and everything else was in the South Pacific Islands and other nations, lots of talk at reunions and seminars, and large events, the kinds of . . . the apostle would often make an appearance at. And so there was, there was a lot of back and forth in people's homes, you know, on the floor of various conferences, the very progressive Australia church that was more than, more than willing to change the name years before. The very small church in New Zealand, where the word community had a bit of a pejorative ring to it. The folks in Tahiti who, of course, are communal by their very culture, and who loved the fact that the church's name could be translated into not only French easily and literally Community of Christ, but could also be translated easily into Tahitian which is a non-conceptual, non-sophisticated current language in the world. But it's still worked beautifully there. So a lot of that was going on in the background. And then Danny is correct when the, when we actually got to the World Conference, I do recall, we can check the World Conference minutes if we need to, that it was not going to be a 50% plus one vote, that it needs to pass by a larger majority in order and I think it was two thirds. That's my recollection. And so I remember talking with our house guests during World Conference, and with my wife that morning, I said, I believe that this will become a conference resolution that passes by the required vote. But it will not be without folks giving their views saying that we need to retain the current identity of the of the church. President Sheehy, Bud Sheehy, did make a statement which he has, which he made since as well. I don't know if he chose to make it strictly because it was his personal view, which I believe it was, but also because he felt it would be a pastoral statement to make. And that is, he said, I will like I'm paraphrasing, I will always be a member of the community, of the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, but my children and grandchildren will be members of the Community of Christ. It was a lovely way to show a bridge. And I remember the part that I added to that was that I, I really did wake up in the middle of the night, I don't want to get unduly mystical or magical, there is a difference on, with the two of you, and with the view, the listening audience, but I, I woke up at about four o'clock in the morning, which is not something I did when I was at that age, just restless, and, and trying to figure out if there was anything that I could share that would help people. And so I simply had the privilege of speaking of those on the rostrum at that time anyway, parliamentarily, did have priority in, in speaking. And I was so grateful that there were people who came to me afterwards that I knew and did not know, who said Your words, were very helpful to me personally. Thank you. That was just my little piece of perspective and added a witness, if you will, to my belief that the, the appropriate name had been chosen, in quite a moment of, of birthing and euphoria, both in a setting that couldn't be more beautiful, frankly, to be, to be in. So I think Danny, considering we didn't talk before this interview at all, our views, our remembrances were pretty much the same at that point. And that is, Robin, that's when I wrote that last verse of the hymn.

Robin Linkhart 37:38

Oh, I love it. I love that. That was my first World Conference as an, as an adult. My mother went when I was a child. And Roy Shafer, who at one time was in the Council of 12 babysat me while Marilyn and my mom went over to conference. I was the closest I've gotten to World Conference until 1998. And I do profoundly remember Bud Sheehy's remark, and there was a sense of, of comfort that was felt across the chamber because it did bridge. And those World Church officers like yourself, Ken, that, that spoke to that item, that was very important to the body. And there was a sense of resting, even though we didn't know exactly how this would feel as we lived into it. And what a wonderful experience to have a profound majority of the body vote in favor of being known to the world as Community of Christ while retaining legal ownership of our name prior--Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. So, so we went out of the conference 2000 and, and Danny has noted we did have a really wonderful and pastoral resource, Called by a New Name, that helped give some framework for the church to engage with different scriptures, and questions and reflection and meditation and some hymns that were inserted into the middle of that, and I, I believe, Ken, that I have that here. I believe your hymn Community of Joy, Proclaim the Living Christ. Yes, it is in here along with others. And Danny was the Presiding Evangelist, ordained Presiding Evangelist at that World Conference 2000 and he wrote the closing chapter in that book. So we were spiritually and as a community of faith, journeying together to prepare for the official change of the name and something else was going on during that time. And that was the consulting firm that we connected with, Crane MetaMarketing of Atlanta. And, of course, the church at large was not privy to all the goings on other than there was a really interesting logo that came out of that that didn't last long. But tell us a little bit. Did you have any interaction with this consulting firm? Or was the Council of 12, Presiding Evangelist with the World Church leadership? Were you all updated as things went on? What was your take on that?

Ken McLaughlin 40:35

Well, we all, Robin, were, were a part of it. We heard more than one presentation by Crane, including, I believe, its principle officer. And then the, also the woman whose name I no longer remember, who sort of would that, was assigned, if you will, to our account, I'm sure they use business like terms, but, but they could, they could speak faith language, absolutely, they could. And she met with us as well. Their work was very helpful, in most regards. The tag line, I think you called it a logo, Towards Zion for All, was met with very mixed results with some people strongly displeased with it. And others, like myself, I remember saying, I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other, the room break, broke out into laughter, because they knew that I typically have a strong opinion on everything. But they did help us with some things like Danny alluded to. The, their signage, the, they found the font, it was called a gala Tei that we purchased so that it could not be used by any other group, and then the name illegality went away. And it still is the font that is used on most signs in the developed world. And I frankly, have seen it copied very nicely in developing nations. Sometimes by hand and other times by a local sign company, or perhaps a piece of plywood, or, or some other more modest material than what we did here in the United States. They picked colors for us. They picked ways to put together stationery, greeting cards, all the kinds of things that was new to the church in terms of try, but relatively new to the church, in terms of trying to put together a cohesive branding. We didn't, none of us even used the term branding I don't believe at that time. So I remember after the presentation, either later that day or in another session, the presider requested everyone in the room, we went around the circle, if you will, to state their opinion on the tagline. And their other thoughts about the whole package that had been presented. So actually, I think most of what they came up with, we did adopt, but the tagline never, never saw the light of day, if you will.

Danny Belrose 43:14

That, yeah, that, that sums it up quite, quite well, I think. Just as I say there was mixed opinion mixed viewpoints on the tagline, personally, I was, I was, I guess I would say I was opposed to it. I just think we were going to do something that we'd already done in terms of making something simple Community of Christ, and then having a tagline. And I, you know, having a background in advertising as an advertising manager, I understand how some companies will, will gravit, gravitate towards having something else they want to say. And I think the Community of Christ was saying it all. And that's why personally I didn't go for a tagline even though they, we kicked it back and forth sometimes.

Ken McLaughlin 44:00

No one was good with it, if I recall. There were, there were no strong advocates for it. Danny, is that, is that (Yes.) your recollection?

Danny Belrose 44:09

That's my recollection. Yes. Yeah.

Robin Linkhart 44:12

So I think one interesting thing of note, there was a a new rendition of our church seal, the lion, the lamb and the little child that came out with with the official Community of Christ font and the colors and, and I think all of, all of that was really, really strong and embraced by the church, but, but this new version of the church seal just was not well received. And, and not that people got upset about it, but folks really kind of came down on we like the old seal. So what can you do with that using this new font and new color, so it didn't last long in the field is my recollection.

Ken McLaughlin 44:58

That's right. That's right. The new colors were basically a blue color and a gold color. People couldn't understand what was wrong with the purple and gold, which were the church's, I guess, unofficial colors, because that was the color of the RLDS flag, if you will. And the problem was, we were trying to take a logo, the church seal, that was drawn originally in a very different era, in the 19th century and trying to make it something that had a lot of lines to it, work in an age where, where there was just too much going on. And even when we finally hit on the version of the seal that's now used, which is vastly improved from what came out around the year 2000 or so. We're not there yet, we still don't have a logo that is of the same, I'll use the term quality, if you will, as the name Community of Christ. I had hoped that the cross with the swirling of the color out of it in a scallop type design would become the church's new official logo. It's used, but I don't believe it ever has been adopted in some way as the church logo. And I certainly still see it on stationery. Robin, you would know more than I would. You see, you see that type stuff more more than than I do anymore. But I still expect the church seal lion, lamb, and child, I continue to see it fading respectfully into the, into the background.

Robin Linkhart 46:42

Yeah, and we often have the name plate Community of Christ with the official font as a standalone as well.

Ken McLaughlin 46:51

Is that right?

Robin Linkhart 46:52

Yeah.

Danny Belrose 46:53

One of the issues, you mentioned, you mentioned earlier that I'm an amateur artist. But one of the issues with that, that rendering was it was out of proportion. The head was, of the child, was too large in proportion to the rest of the body. And I knew that, and I think most people could see it or understand there's something wrong here. And that's, that's what it was.

Robin Linkhart 47:18

Alrighty. We've touched a little bit on hymnody already, but I want to embrace that topic again. As we lived into the name Community of Christ, I saw a shift in our hymnody, and of course, there were several hymns featured in the preparation resource Called by a New Name, including Ken's hymn. And you all have in the current hymnal, Ken has eight hymns and Danny has nine. And many of those I think were authored since the year 2000. I'd have to check all the dates on those. So talk about our tradition of hymnody and how this name and sense of identity has been sung about in our tradition and in the hymns that you have authored; how that tradition of singing helped us cross over into this new way of naming ourselves.

Danny Belrose 48:23

Ken I think this one is one you should start with. You are really the hymn mayor here.

Ken McLaughlin 48:28

That's very kind of you and Robin. I do need to confess that I'm still bitter that Danny has nine hymns in the new book, and I have eight. That's why I have to add that I have a tune. It's the only way I can justify my continued friendship with him.

Danny Belrose 48:44

Yeah, we weren't speaking up until today, as a matter of fact. (That's true.) And this is a reconciling situation. And . . . what's in my heart right now. It's just pounding. And my

Ken McLaughlin 48:56

And Danny, you've aged so poorly. I had thought you would do better than this. Really. It's so sad.

Danny Belrose 49:01

You know it's . . .two surgeries and one tomorrow is the

Robin Linkhart 49:05

We do tell all on Project Zion Podcast.

Ken McLaughlin 49:08

Yeah, sure. Yeah, we know what's going to be cut from this one by your editors. Robin, I do want to point out one hymn in particular. Let me back up. It is true that in Community of Christ, we are powerfully shaped by what we sing. We are also shaped by the more contemporary words of the book of Doctrine and Covenants, particularly, and I would say the latest times when Wallace B. Smith was the president of the church on into Grant McMurray's very poetic writings, and the very clear, plain writings of the current president of the church, Steve Veazey. Those have shaped us a lot. But from an artistic viewpoint, we're shaped even more by the hymnody that we, that we sing. Community of Christ sings is a terrific collection. I didn't think they'd be able to do as well as the 1981 committee did on Hymns of the Saints because they took a rather restrained 1956 hymnal, '58, '56 hymnal called The Hymnal and interestingly enough with a gray cover, and they have the '81 hymnal was, was so well done, and such a change from that I wasn't sure that this particular group could move hymnody forward. Well, they did. And they did it well. And they did it, first of all, by making the book a lot larger. They had a wealth, there's been an explosion of hymnody throughout the Christian world. And because I have gone to the Hymn Society of America and Canada, sessions, I've gotten to meet some of these people who I frankly, idolize them. One of the hymns that we've used a lot in this name change transition is in the Community of Christ Sings hymnal, 636, I Have Called You by Your Name. Beautifully done. The tune and the words are by a West Coast America, Californian named Dan Damon. He's an ordained Protestant minister, a raging introvert. And I think perhaps that is one of the reasons he's able to produce these achingly beautiful texts that he has written. His wife is an extrovert, and frankly, is the one that helps promote his work throughout the Christian world. And so, I think the very first time we sang this in English at a World Conference, people already had it. They loved, it was one of those hymns that they loved from the minute they sang it. When you add into that the New Zealand hymn writer, the late Shirley Erena Murray, who has more hymn texts than anyone in our, in our particular book, the wife of a Protestant minister, we have remarkable beauty in this text, and one of our strongest calls to justice and activism and the work of peace. You, then you throw in some of our Community of Christ composers, such as the late Barbara Mink, I believe she passed away a few years ago, who wrote, who wrote the hymn tune, Los Criaturas del Reino, The Creatures of the King, and then they paired it with one of Danny's texts that I believe you told me, Danny, you wrote quickly. And it's about giving to the, it's about money. (Oh, yeah.) We even have hymns, it's called Can We Calculate Our Giving, we even have hymns in this book that, that have to do with something that's what people don't even like talking about--giving and money--and, and things like that. And we put together two of our great artists in the Community of Christ and come up with this wonderful hymn. It also, Barbara's tune appears in another wonderful text as well, I can't remember the name of it. I'll stop talking. I could go on forever about hymnody.

Danny Belrose 53:24

This may sound a little bit, you can make, you may want to cut this too, because it may sound self serving, I just want to give a little background in terms of, as we're talking about hymn writing, which quite frankly, was new to me. When I was called to be the presiding evangelist, I was ordained by Ken Robinson of the Presidency. And here's a confession for you. I don't recall verbatim what he said in the prayer. But I remember sitting there and there was a line that came out as he was praying. And he said, You will find yourself called into areas of ministry and expression that you heretofore have never experienced. And I have to confess to you, it was not said unkindly, in my mind. So I cannot say to myself, that's a lovely phrase, but at my age, I know, and I don't mean this in a boasting way, I know what I do well. I know what gifts I have. I also know how I screw up. I know what the, my weaknesses are. So I said, yeah, I didn't I just thought, Well, you know, that's nice phrase. Well, becoming presiding evangelist at that time. I think we had about 560 evangelists. I'm not sure what the count would be today. Well, how do you, how do you, presiding evangelist as the presider over that group of men and women? How do you encourage them? You're not their presiding officer. How do you encourage them? And the only way to do that is through newsletters. And I began to write newsletters, and as I wrote the newsletters, I began to write poems which I've never done before. And then I began to write hymns, which I'd never done before. So, and it dawned on me. Well, maybe Ken was on to something here, and I was just asleep at the switch. So it's interesting how these things mature and develop. But yes, I think, I've had a, I've had a bit of a throat problem since last August. And it's forbidden me from being able to sing. And that's a real loss. I hope that comes back. Because I just, we sing our faith, we sing our faith, and to sing with a group is just marvelous, a congregation. And I hope, I hope someday that I will be able to do that again. So

Robin Linkhart 55:36

That is really beautiful. And, and what a testimony of how God continues to call us deeper and deeper into embracing our authentic self and liberating those resident divinely appointed gifts. And I just want to say on behalf of the church, to both of you, that the hymns that you have written that are in Community of Christ Sings. And those before, I don't know that you've written any that haven't been published, I'm sure you have, but

Ken McLaughlin 56:07

Oh, yeah. We have. We have about 80, between us, we have about eight zero, 80.

Robin Linkhart 56:12

We'll have to do a supplement some time just for fun, right?

Ken McLaughlin 56:16

Sadly, some of them are terrific, but the, the, the committee already had enough texts in that theme, if you know what I mean.

Robin Linkhart 56:25

Right, right. Yes, yes. (Yeah.) But anyway, the ones that are in the Community of Christ Sings continue to bless the church across the globe, so I just want to say thank you very, very much for that.

Ken McLaughlin 56:38

Robin, if I, could I add something and this, this has to do with people who are listening to this podcast, and they're trying to discover within themselves, some gifts that maybe have been suppressed, or repressed, or simply were ignorant of them. When the 1981 hymnal was in process of being written, I remember that one of the people responsible for that put out an article in the Herald magazine asking people who had never written hymns to give it a try. (Yeah. Yeah.) And I remember as a young, I was a young man, then, I remember saying, Oh, my gosh. I'm as clever with words as my grandfather, for whom I am named, Kenneth Gripple. As a small town, coal mining Appalachian pastor who could come up with little ditties and phrases and poems at the drop of a hat. And I could do the same thing. And I said, Why couldn't that same skill just, or gift or whatever you want to call it, just be modified enough to turn into a hymn text. I did not know what I was doing. I didn't. I had to have meter explained to me, and those sorts of things. And from that came the hymn, Lord, Who Views All People Precious, and I ended up the youngest hymn text writer in, in the 1981 hymnal. I was, I was, to use an old fashioned word, gobsmacked by that. I kept thinking of my grandfather. And if there's people listening to this, who think that they may not have something inside of them to give, they're wrong. They're just not, they're just not discovering it yet.

Robin Linkhart 58:41

Indeed, indeed.

Danny Belrose 58:44

I had not planned to share this, but going back to the conference of 2001 when the name was changed, I was asked to give a, as presenting evangelist, to give an opening prayer. And I just, I literally stumbled on it here. I thought I tried to remember what that was about. And if you'll bear with me, I'll just read it. Believe it or not Ken, it is brief. It's not one of my four, four page prayers, five pages, six. Well, it's not one, it's not long. A teenager, head bowed, fingers laced, a wooded grove, a fragile faith, a hopeful faith, a light, a voice, a call. Sunlit children laughing, young girls baking bread, beams raised, stones quarried, Kirtland's china-walls. Nauvoo city beautiful, stones of sun and moon, its temple razed, its leaders slain, its dream unrealized, rumbling carts and frozen rivers, prison walls and widows' tears, fractured faith and homes divided, scattered saints and desperate years, a wounded faith, a yearning faith, a light, a voice a call. Re-uniting, reaffirming, Zion's cause reclaimed. Oval dome and swirling spire, lion, lamb and child, grace transforming, peace provoking, justice reconciled. Faith forever flowing, finding pathways new from sacred grove to silver spire, from spire to lands anew. Stirring faith, maturing faith, fed by former streams in those who came before us, in those who gave their all. A growing faith, a flowing faith, a light, a voice, a call.

Robin Linkhart 1:00:38

I love that. Thank you for sharing that, Danny. And that is a poignant bridge to the question about mission? How did the name change impact the mission of the church, from your perspectives?

Danny Belrose 1:01:01

Well, I'm going to be brief here. I would say that one of the things, and it may have happened on its own, but I think the name of the church Community of Christ also was the bedrock in some respects, at least to me, for when Grant became president of the church, president-prophet of the church, who, who intentionally moved our perceptions of who the president-prophet of the church, what it, what it means to be a prophet of the church. Because in many ways, he was, I think, uncomfortable with that, that perspective, when he moved us towards saying, We are not a people with a prophet, we are a prophetic people, which, which gives the old sense idea that we are a community of faith. That yes, we have a prophet-president, but each in our own right are prophetic, and prophetic in the sense to be able to speak the truth to power and be able to be who one can be as a witness.

Ken McLaughlin 1:02:03

For me, and I often, if you will, experimented with the name from a missional perspective, based on whoever sat next to me on an airplane. You know that phenomenon, I'm sure, because you have traveled likely more in the last few years as a member of the Council of 12, than you did before. And my assignments were a long way away. And I spent a lot of time talking to people next to me. So I remember speaking with a woman who was a business executive. I think she was struggling with some personal issues, but she became quite captivated with what I did for a living. And I talked to her about being an international officer of Community of Christ. But I was also trying to find a way to honor our heritage, to not disparage in any way any other part of the Latter Day Saint movement, but to help somebody with her level of education understand where we fit in. And so I said to her, when she pressed more, I wasn't going to. I was going to leave it pretty much at that. She wanted more about the background. And I said, Well, we are actually part of the entire Latter Day Saint movement, we would be, if you will, the the progressive or left end of the spectrum of Latter Day Saintism. And we share 14 common years of history 1830 to 1844, at which point upon the assassination of the founder of the Latter Day Saint movement, Joseph Smith, Jr. Upon his assassination, the movement split into various pieces. The one you likely know as the church based in Salt Lake City, has become by far the largest of those parts of Latter Day Saintism. And she, I wanted to develop a 60 second way to affirm where we are in this. And, but what was so remarkable was after we got off the plane, she said, If you're not going to catch a flight right away, if you've got a little time, I'd like to buy you a cup of coffee. And then she goes, do you drink coffee? Yes, we're the ones that do. And she wanted to hear more. And she wanted to hear how this tied in. And where I thought we were headed in terms of, of the acceptance of the LBGTQ, we didn't use all those initials at that time, community and, and other groups who lived on the margins of life. And she wanted to know the name of the closest congregation to her. I can't tell you what part of the country she was in. We were, we were in Denver Airport by then we had a cup of coffee, but I don't remember where she was headed somewhere different from myself. So I don't think it takes very much to be able to honor a whole lot of stuff and help people who, who aren't carrying much of a grudge or trying to defend something or tell, tell us who we are, who are just open to hearing it, there's a great way to do that. And to me, it's helped people, uh, become a, they're better able to verbalize who we are.

Danny Belrose 1:05:18

I think also, just as a quick point, that the whole concept of Community of Christ has helped us even though we've certainly transformed ourselves away from the standpoint of early years, when we were the one true church, that community, that word itself says that this is broader. I think it helps us understand that God has many names. And there are, that all religions of the world that better, that, that, that points us towards Shalom, which means the peace and the betterment of all, all humankind and the earth itself. I think that whole idea of community has helped us to be more open to other viewpoints and perspectives.

Robin Linkhart 1:06:08

Yes, indeed, indeed. It's, it liberated a people in both expected and unexpected ways. And from my perspective, I think we continue on this journey of fully living into what it means to be a Community of Christ and certainly has deepened our sense of inter- relatedness, inter-connection far beyond wherever we find ourselves on the globe. And those of us who come from nations that tend to be more individualistic, it has really pulled us and invited us into the full meaning of community. From your perspectives, do you think we have any unfinished business connected with changing our name to Community of Christ?

Ken McLaughlin 1:07:08

There is a piece of unfinished business and it has to do with I have, what I have respectfully called our schizophrenic views on the Lord's Supper, and baptismal practices that we honor and others that we do not honor. I've not talked about this for a long time. It's kind of receded to the, to the back of my mind, but it seems to me that while we were in the process of opening ourselves up, we did not, we failed as leaders in my era, to deal fully and completely with the issue of baptism of, of children into the community, at an early age, infant baptism, and that we, and that we would honor at the table, people of other faiths, but we still put conditions on it that you as an administrator, one of the chief administrative officers of the church, have to enforce rather than to truly honor all of the forms and ages and rituals around the sacrament of baptism. I had a conversation with my mother one time and she said, Don't you think immersion is important? I spoke pretty candidly with my mother, I said, Mom, I don't think God cares whether we're sprinkled over the head, or whether we are dipped in it to a tank completely, or whatever. That is simply the outward expression of the innert event that's taking place in life. That was on the occasion of when two of her baby grandchildren were about to be sprinkled into, into the Christian community. And she still didn't like it, but she understood it at least, I think that's unfinished business. And I'm a little embarrassed that we haven't taken care of it. And now it's on you and your colleagues to help get that going.

Danny Belrose 1:09:07

You know, I think the reality is there's always going to be unfinished business. Just as you suggested earlier, Ken, about even the name of the church, which we celebrate its 20th year, who knows how we best describe ourselves in the future. And even, even the pandemic, in some respects, has pushed us into areas that we normally would not accept, in terms of our rituals, in terms of our sacramental acts. We had to do them differently. And, and that in, that in some ways, that's a little bit freeing to recognize that we don't have to be held rigid to the procedures and that we were bound, have been bound by. Basically, it comes down to this. There's a difference between a sign and a symbol. A sign merely points to the object. It tells us something. A symbol participates in that which it's pointing toward. Does that make any sense at all? It participates. And we've been, in a sense, pushed by the fact that we've had to be closed in because of this pandemic. It has pushed us to say, we must be able to see this as symbolic and let it be symbolic, as opposed to follow A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, a, and then it's effective. It's just as Ken said, I don't think God folds God's arms looks over his shoulder while you didn't do it, right, so you're not getting a blessing this time. I just think that that's kind of pushing us to say, Okay, let's be creative and understand that there's a difference between grace and works, if you will, and go with what makes sense.

Robin Linkhart 1:10:53

I really, go ahead.

Ken McLaughlin 1:10:55

Robin, I also think that we need to understand that there are people that, that are now deceased, who we need to thank for setting the stage to this, that we, that maybe we don't even think about being part of, of what we've talked about today. That would be for example, when the church made a shift, a major seismic shift in its theology, away from being based in works righteousness, earning our way, if you will, into glory with God--work, work, work. And I'm a worker, and you, I know, Robin, are worker, and so's Danny. But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about where you have to work, to show your worth. That switch from work to grace, which took place in the 70s and 80s, and even, even before, allowed us and it happened painlessly and non-legislatively that set the, the groundwork for all that we've talked about today. And I'm grateful for people like Apostle Geoff Spencer, who helped with that tremendously. (Yeah.)

Robin Linkhart 1:12:15

For sure. We always stand on the shoulders of those who have gone before. And I for one, really revel in the capacity we have as a people with a tradition of continuing revelation, which I see as opening ourselves to God having God's way with us, sometimes kicking and screaming, as we continue to do our very best to listen and understand how God is calling us to be the people of God in this time and this place and stretching us and, and growing us and calling us deeper into that journey. I remember when, when we first accepted baptisms of others, at age eight, Christian baptisms at age eight, could have confirmation only if they chose to, to become a member of Community of Christ. And even then, at the beginning, we were struggling, saying, Is, wait, did we go far enough. And I was in a meeting, I believe I was a president of 70 at that point, and one of the counselors to the prophet-president of the church said, This is not, this is where we are today. This is not to say that this conversation is finished. And I saw in that how we are indeed, a people who journey together with God, and we remain open to the struggle of how we're being called to be. And I really appreciate those things that you've lifted up as unfinished business because it is profound. And, and it is deeply meaningful to be continually engaged in that journey and struggle of becoming.

Danny Belrose 1:14:20

I think, I think the, the question that keeps rolling and should always roll around in our minds in our hearts is, who are we really? Who are we? And who are we supposed to be? And how can we move toward that? I think the fact that we first confronted a non- Christian culture, and we could, we could, we could understand who we were within the bounds of Christianity. And that was because we believed certain things and I think there's a difference between belief and faith. Belief is a list of things. You can think a list of things of what you believe. And on and on and on, a, a, a litany of what you believe in. But there's a difference between belief and faith. Faith is openness. Faith is the willingness to move toward that which is unknown, willing to give trust, that you can become better and more helpful and who the spirit is calling you to be. And I think that question is going to continue to roll. I hope it does. If it doesn't, we're in deep trouble.

Robin Linkhart 1:15:26

Yes. Okay. So is there anything else that either one of you would like to share that I have not asked you about today?

Ken McLaughlin 1:15:35

Do you know I'm a local pastor again after 35 years of not being a pastor? And do you know what kinds of stuff you have to know now that you didn't have to know because of COVID? Oh, my gosh,

Robin Linkhart 1:15:50

Yes, I did hear that news. News travels fast in Community of Christ. And thank you for saying yes to being pastor again.

Ken McLaughlin 1:15:57

Well, I wish somebody much younger had, had said so, but the reality is in a larger congregation, our younger folks are willing to do a lot of stuff. But the leadership role is something they're just not willing to commit to when they think they're those, there's other people that will.

Robin Linkhart 1:16:18

And I would say that doing that in the middle of a global pandemic might be a little more overwhelming than when we're not in a pandemic.

Ken McLaughlin 1:16:27

It immediately, for example, disqualifies all of our teachers from doing anything other than to teach, because that, that's it. That's all they can do. And our medical people, that's all they can do. And that's all they should be doing. So some of us that have more time on our hands, we need to step up, but I never thought I'd learn this much about air filtration systems in churches.

Danny Belrose 1:16:53

Well, I can say this to my good friend, I can't, we have a lot of gifted people in New Walnut Gardens, but I can't think of a better pastor right now than having Ken as our pastor. And I mean that.

Ken McLaughlin 1:17:06

This was way more than I bargained for. Robin, I cannot imagine what some of the pastors in some of your smaller congregations must feel trying to keep things afloat until we can be back together, which I pray to God is sooner rather than later.

Robin Linkhart 1:17:22

It's hard. It's hard. And you both know how much just deep, deep love, commitment and service our pastors give to the church to serve and support their congregation all over the world and it has been really tough, really tough. All right. Well, thank you so much for being with us today, Ken and Danny. It has been a joy. I have had the blessing of sitting under your ministry many, many times and look to you both as mentors and leaders of mission from whom I have learned so much over the years. So thank you for being with us today. And we will post links and publications in our show notes to things that you have referenced today. And as always, thanks to all of you, our listeners for sharing a part of your day with us. This is your host Robin Linkhart. And you are listening to Project Zion Podcast. Go out and make the world a better place. Bye, bye.

Josh Mangelson 1:18:41

Thanks for listening to Project Zion Podcast. Subscribe to our podcast on Apple podcast, Stitcher, or whatever podcast streaming service you use. And while you're there, give us a five star rating. Project Zion Podcast is sponsored by Latter-day Seeker Ministries of Community of Christ. The views and opinions expressed in this episode are of those speaking and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of Latter-day Seeker Ministries, or Community of Christ. Music has been graciously provided by Dave Heinze.

Project Zion Podcast

364 | Celebrating 20 Years as Community of Christ

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