Kathleen Stetson, MBA ’14

Kathleen Stetson, MBA ’14 and Co-founder of MIT Hacking Arts, joins Christopher Reichert, MOT ’04, to talk about her journey to MIT Sloan and the self-awareness program for entrepreneurs that she launched at the MIT delta V accelerator last summer.

Transcript

spk_1:   0:07
welcome to slowly. He's talking with Sloane. Ease a candid conversation with alumni and faculty about the M I T. Sloan experience and how it influences what they're doing today. So what does it mean to be a slow knee? Over the course of this podcast, you'll hear from guests who are making a difference in their community, including our own very important one here at M I t slow. I am your host, Christopher Reichert. And welcome to Sloane. Ease talking with Sloane Ease. I'm with Kathleen Stetson, a 2014 graduate of Sloane. Welcome.

spk_0:   0:38
Hello. Thank you.

spk_1:   0:39
Good to have you here. Thanks. Do you? Ah, is it snowing out? We're home now in Missouri.

spk_0:   0:43
Oh, gosh. Actually, I have haven't actually been there for a couple of weeks because we've been through every Thanksgiving, and so I don't Actually, no, But it's delightful to be here in the cold in Boston against you. Haven't been back here for about a year, so

spk_1:   0:58
I guess you spend a lot of time here before

spk_0:   1:00
I did. Yeah, Yeah. In fact, I've spent most of the majority of my time in Boston in little fits and starts at various schools.

spk_1:   1:09
right? Yeah. Before we d'oh what you've done since then. Let's let's step back. I am fascinated and admittedly a little bit jealous of your background. You have an undergraduate degree from that other small college up the road. Yep. Also known as Harvard. Congratulations. Then you got your first Masters degree from doing the conservative music for vocal for problem informants. Yeah, number wonderful on then another masters advanc ed earlier in architectural sciences. That's right. And finally, 1/3 master's degree toe cap. The cherry on the top from Sloan? Yes. Anymore in the works on Lee

spk_0:   1:45
Gosh. No, thank you. I think of it instead of three masters degrees. I think of it is like a custom PhD. Tha t's right. I mean, I don't get it the doctor thing with it, but in my head, I just you know, it was like, make your own major through three Masters degree,

spk_1:   2:00
right? I am not one to talk. I took two. Did Sloane and take any schools? Yes. Okay. Yes. So? So while its loan, you founded the M I T Hacking Arts Festival, which I want to come back to you in a minute. Uh, and then after Sloane. You found it true, which I love is a play on the musical term for

spk_0:   2:16
the grotto. That's exactly right.

spk_1:   2:19
That's great. I love that coming back to your vocal arts. So before we get to what you're doing now, tell me about the journey. Weaving vocal arts, architecture, technology. How did that guy come together?

spk_0:   2:32
Well, it's It feels like it's easy to tell the story now, but it's all happened. I can weave it together and maybe make some sense of it. But as it was happening, it was really you know, Well, I really was about Oh, people told me I need to find my passion right Um and so I was finding it, Uh, and now I realize that that's totally an illusion. There's there's maybe for some people, there's one passion and they find it, and they really enjoyed doing it every day. Um, but for me, what I What I found over the years is that I am passionate about a lot of things, and that's okay. So, um, so really, You know, I grew up singing, and that seemed like a logical thing to do and and I wanted to feel like I had explored that gift. Basically, um, which is why I went. I went to Harvard. I did a music major there. Which is funny because there is a music department or the heart rate, but it's very small. Uh,

spk_1:   3:29
must get my tea with its course. 17 political science. Really? Yeah. Yes, it's actually one of the top of the country.

spk_0:   3:35
Yeah, and it was a great experience. I'm God, I did it. And then, um And then I got my opera degree and conservatory also wonderful. And I feel really great about I wanted to get to the point where I could make the decision, whether I wanted to be an opera singer or not. And I got to the point where I could make that decision and I decided not to

spk_1:   3:52
is a very difficult profession.

spk_0:   3:54
Oh, my goodness. Yes, it really it takes a lot out of you physically. It requires a lot in terms of, you know, dedication and travel. And, um, yeah,

spk_1:   4:05
you're always going to places to perform in your kind of a stranger forever. Hotels. And that's

spk_0:   4:11
what I imagined. And I wonder, I think that's true for some people, and I think there's probably a way to do it. That doesn't feel quite like that. But I was, you know, in my mid twenties at that point and thinking, you know, But I have to be successful now, you know? And I wasn't sort of willing to be, ah, to put in the time. Frankly, you know, um and I think that's okay, because I wasn't willing to put in the time because I wasn't so singularly dedicated to it. Um, so then I actually made a big list of all the things I'd ever wanted to be, you know, um, including, like with ologists at the top, which is what I wanted to be in fifth grade, fifth

spk_1:   4:48
grade

spk_0:   4:49
and fifth grade. Yeah, I put it all on there.

spk_1:   4:51
Well, I'm gonna ask my my fifth grade daughter. My daughter is in fifth grade, if he knows what A little ologists. No

spk_0:   4:56
way we have it. This says a lot about me because I was like, I want to be a with Allah, just not a geologist. I only want to study rocks. Yeah, nerdy kid, in other words, Um, so, yeah, so then, really, it was It was about you know, exploring weight of shoot I singing was the thing, you know. And now what? Um and so acoustics was a wonderful experience. I went to our P. I, uh, got a engineering job and acoustics at a big phone, called her up

spk_1:   5:28
huge. It was one of the founders of that whole science.

spk_0:   5:31
Well, they've contributed a lot to it. Yeah, um, it's it's a pretty young science. It's only about 100 and 20 years old, basically. So, really, there's it was a very exciting field to be in, and and I loved it in many ways. But, um, but then when I when I realized that, you know, the day today is what you do every day and so you have to, you know, you don't have to love every second of it, but you you have to be passionate about it. And, um, and a lot of it is calculations. So, um, you know, sitting at a desk doing Calix understanding, you know, tales that, um that I wasn't sure what I loved was the creative part. Um, working with architects. That was just fascinating. Wonderful. Um, but But that wasn't the all the time work. So

spk_1:   6:24
what did you say? That Because my father is an architect. Oh, I almost became an architect myself when I wanted to be. You know, um, and I was used to sing, by the way. Oh, my God. Nothing like. But I just sing with Barbara Streisand and the Olympic opening ceremonies And what? Yeah, not quite at that. But I used to sing in Australia. The Sydney Symphony Orchestra in there, sort of house choir. Well, that's incredible. Classical things. Yeah, took advantage that, but so my father was an architect, and he and I consider doing that. I had a friend who was an architect, and she gave it up after awhile, partly because I think there's very few people who get to that kind of stark attacked level. You know where your creative vision can be brought to life. And she found herself placing light switches and power. Hell, it's just for days and weeks and months on end.

spk_0:   7:07
Yes, yeah, it can be. It can be like that. I think, Um, I think there's a lot of opportunities now, though, for some interesting. You know, if you want to make your career interesting in the way you want it. You know, I have ah, friend who is concentrating on Ah, you know, Net zero energy buildings. It's I think they're some interesting opportunities now, but yeah, it's I mean, the field is it's a wonderful field. I miss it sometimes. But I when I left, I felt like I want to do something that feels honestly, I was looking for more immediate gratification, frankly, because in architecture and an acoustics, you know, you designed the thing, and then it gets built. Seven years later, maybe. And so again, it was this kind of a younger version of me thinking like, Oh, I need it now, you

spk_1:   8:02
know? So that water looks right now,

spk_0:   8:04
Yeah, I want it well, And also with acoustics to it's such a, um it's, you know, it's a science, but it's an art. And so you're making these recommendations to architects? You don't? No, really, how it's gonna work out. You think you know, you've done your very best. You've done all the calculations, but, um, really, it takes a while to actually find out, you know? Did it work or not? Yes, I

spk_1:   8:24
can tell you my previous role was Edward M. Kennedy Institute here in Boston, and they slavishly reproduced the Senate chamber. Oh, everything about it. But then they added a couple of different elements was glass barriers on the second floor and a couple of other things. And it was just and that put no sound attenuation. And so it was just an echo. We blobby mass whenever we had speaking programs.

spk_0:   8:46
Isn't that incredible, right? Do you think it's like, Oh, it's the same, right? But actually know those details really make

spk_1:   8:52
a different list defense where you said it was good or bad, but anyway won't get into that. Yeah, actually, we did get a quote from from Arab to come in. It was like, Okay, I think we'll just turn the volume up. No,

spk_0:   9:03
no, no, no, no. But well, um, but yes. Oh, So then I I decided to go to Sloan, um, for some immediate gratification. Frankly, I had been reading, frankly, a lot about entrepreneurship and, um, starting companies. And I thought, you know, I think I could do something at the intersection of my interests. You know, I worked in the arts. I was now combining arts and science and it sort of made sense to me. Well, alright, art, science and business. You know, there's got to be on interesting company that I can start. Um, that combines those things. And so I came to someone specifically for the entrepreneurship program and with the thought that probably I would focus in the arts and and that is pretty much what I did. Um, with hacking arts. And then with my startup trail,

spk_1:   9:52
so did the so hacking. Or it's kind of when I read it, it was, um I guess it's like Ted, right, which has the three. But then you added the hacking part of it. Yeah, and they're so fed. No, amazing. We never that no, but I think, But what I found really interesting about it was on what I really would has always drawn me to Ted in those sorts of conferences. And maybe you could say south by Southwest. Is that so? The same sort of thing And what also repels me at the same time is that there's there's a dilettante ish nature to it, which is like, you come in, supposed to get some worldly vision wisdom in 18 minutes or less. Yeah, right. And then you kind of shuttle off, have some espresso when you move on to the next one, and you're mean, you're whatever else What? I So when you did the Hacking arts festival, tell me what? Like what? Brought that all together? What was the kind of the goal there?

spk_0:   10:41
Yeah, well, that what

spk_1:   10:42
we saw on the ground sounds like. Well,

spk_0:   10:44
that's right. Yeah. The sort of tag line that we've used for seven years now because it's in its seventh year. It's happening this weekend at the media lab. Um, is we don't just talk about the future of the arts. We create it, and that's really what we wanted to do. We So when I came to Sloane, I realized there are a lot of people interested in arts and technology, not just its loan, but across M i t. Um, across Boston. There are so many, of course, fabulous schools in arts and beyond here. So I was meeting all these people, but but many of them weren't meeting each other. Actually. So So basically, my co founder of Hacking Arts Catherine, help me and I we saw this opportunity to just put people in a room together and kind of see what happens. But we wanted it to feel it's the arts. After all, we wanted it to feel like an experience, you know, like the weekend is an evolution from, you know, the beginning where you know, you're meeting some people, you're, ah, confronted with some new ideas, perhaps. And then, yeah, you don't just leave and never see those people again. In fact, you then you work with those people and you create something. And even if it's only 24 hours, you, you know, create a little spark of something that then could become something more. So, In fact, there are a couple of companies that, um, you know, started with their little teams that hiking arts. Um, there. Ah, somebody met there now spouse at hacking. We've Yes. So we can post a couple of very meaningful connections that it wasn't. There

spk_1:   12:17
was an element of the UN conference in its way, nohow. Structured, was it?

spk_0:   12:21
Yeah. We've never done specifically an un conference portion. It's always been the conference and then the hack a thon. And they're different years, depending on the co directors, because it still is all student run. Catherine and I are still quite involved, but you know, from, ah, just advisory component. So it really we want them to make of it what they want to make of it this year. Um, the hack of honor in the conference there are kind of interwoven in some ways with workshops. The conference is happening on Sunday and set him on Saturday in there's, you know, experiments that happen every year. Um, so the the idea is really to it happens. Three parts. We say the first part is inspire. So that's the Hey, let's all kind of get on the same page about, you know, what are we? What are the problems in arts and technology right now? What are the possibilities? What are people already doing? You know, let's not reinvent the wheel than I d eight. Let's all come up with new ideas based on what we've just heard and then the create portion, Um, and so some people come and and do that, that whole progression. Some people just do come to the inspire portion and listen

spk_1:   13:34
to handle absorb something

spk_0:   13:36
exactly. And some people just want to come hack and that's great. Um, so, yeah, it's exciting.

spk_1:   13:41
So do you have, ah, change the theme every year? Is it?

spk_0:   13:44
Sometimes we have theme, and sometimes we don't. Actually, this year they're just three panels and hacking and a bunch of workshops that are interesting. Sometimes it's more already, Um, and sometimes it's more business focused. We're We're very intent upon keeping that intersection, though, between arts and entertainment technology and entrepreneurship. Because this really is, You know, we want people to potentially start something out of this, um, and and yeah, not not Just have a conference and chat.

spk_1:   14:16
That's great. And I was gonna turn to what you're doing now. I, um eso before we get into that. So you talked about that you suffer from depression during and after your start up? Yeah. And then also constant low level, my great migraine headaches. And 2010. I know. That's still the case. Is that

spk_0:   14:37
it is I have a migraine right

spk_1:   14:39
now. What's that? Led to your research into wellness, meditation and mindfulness, Right. And, um, I don't know if you read recently here at McGovern Institute for Brain Research and who's building were sitting, they just did some research recently where they were able to control people's Alfa brainwaves after 10 minutes. So they gave them, Ah, live neurofeedback. Um, and they had to look at a grating pattern on the center monitor and were told to use mental effort to increase the patterns contrast, making it more visible. And so at the end of it, they were amazed that they said they knew that they were doing this. They actually were able to do this just mentally do this, but they had no idea how they did it. Which to me, I think is they were talking about is the basis of conditional learning. Um, and sometimes we get a reward and feedback. You continue doing it. So maybe there's some element to that. And I was thinking about how that might fit in with mindfulness in the work that you're doing and particulars entrepreneurs you talked about, even with the hacking festival that people were doing their thing but not getting together. And the same thing might be true for entrepreneurs, where they're kind of in their own separate spaces like these, the to the I guess, mental health issues, depression and other aspects anxiety And what? Loneliness too, right? Right. And you're not being able to tell your story. And, um, you talked here about how what I really caught me about the description of what you're doing was the confidential sort of unbiased environment for your feedback. And so So tell me about how that how that came together?

spk_0:   16:14
Totally. Yeah,

spk_1:   16:15
that leads into what you're doing right now. I don't know if that's really what you're doing now, is

spk_0:   16:19
it is Yeah. Um, So, in a way, it feels like a stretch to go from the arts, too. Basically the wellness wellness environment. But really, the through line is I was focusing here on entrepreneurship. Um, and I started this company. I did what I said I was gonna do. I started a company when I was its loan. It was incredibly exciting. I got a lot of support from the entrepreneurship center, the trust center, um, from professors from students. It was, you know, I worked on it in every single class that would allow me to, you know, use it as my main project. It was fabulous. And and then I got out of this wonderful environment, and you know, we raised money. Um, we stayed in Cambridge, and then it was like, Oh, my God. Wow. This this is really this is a slog. You know, this is we talk about an entrepreneurship, you know? You have to fail fast, right? And it's a it's Ah, you gotta move quickly. Right. So you think you have in your head Well, um, it's a sprint. You know, I gotta I gotta move really quickly. I have to, um I have to be on top of all of the time. I need to be so incredibly dedicated that I, uh yeah, leave aside everything else. I

spk_1:   17:35
mean, have all the answers,

spk_0:   17:36
have all the answers. Exactly. So you know, I went for Gosh, it was probably two years where, I mean, I barely had dinner with a friend. I was working so hard.

spk_1:   17:44
And it's hard to explain to people who aren't doing it. And they because you don't have you hope to have measurable results. Yeah, but if you're not, you still maybe think you're not family, but you're maybe not succeeding. And maybe how the external environment would view the measure of success.

spk_0:   17:59
Right? And you really, um it's hard to know, so that fail fast thing is always in the back of your head. But you're like, well, but also people are telling me to persevere. So wait, which one do I do and

spk_1:   18:12
easy to feel fast, right? I give up

spk_0:   18:14
exactly. And so And really yes, it's a balancing act between those two all the time. And really at the center of that is decision making. Um and and so what? The work that I'm doing now is and and I've skipped over a bet it'll come back to it. But, um, it's really about helping entrepreneurs make decisions. Better see the information that they have at hand more clearly. Um, and so that information, you know, can be internal their their gut. It can be the information they get from feedback from customers, from investors, from advisors from the market. And it's it's really, um, helping people, frankly, not be sort of delusional about Theo information, right? So I I just I can remember numerous times when I made decisions based on fear, you know, fear that Oh my God. Our investors put in all this money and I want to do right by them. And we need Thio, you know? So let's build this new feature because that's gonna be the answer for us. And, um, it turns out no, that's that's never the answer that feature is is probably never the answer. You know, it's gonna be some, you know, going down that path might be something that leads you somewhere interesting and may lead to some measure of success. But But the idea that entrepreneurs air constantly like, Well, if I just have this thing or if I just go to this person or this this place, that well, then success is right around the corner, right? Because, really, it's it's a marathon is not a sprint. Um, so that realization, all of that. You know, I I slogged through that mud, and, um and I did experience a lot of depression because trill was not going well, um, I mean, it was going well until it wasn't, you know? And then, um, we you know, we really just fundamentally I didn't have a good business model. Um, and and ultimately that's the, you know, key thing. That was our downfall, of course, because that's important, you know, making that money imagine that, right? That's

spk_1:   20:20
dot com. Remember that. Yeah.

spk_0:   20:22
Right. So, um, so that whole experience and sure enough, this this entire time, I don't I don't mean to make a big thing of a migraine, but I had this chronic pain in my head since, um, even before I went to Sloane. And it's something that I've been managing for years and been to a ba jillion doctors to try toe. Ah, figure out exactly what it is. And only in the past 23 years have I realized that in fact, it's just been a low grade migraine the whole time that Sloane I I actually thought it was related to Lyme disease. So, um, so I I've been in the background working on that this whole time, and, um,

spk_1:   21:01
probably didn't want to appear weak. Right?

spk_0:   21:02
That's exactly right. Yeah. So exactly entrepreneurship. I felt like I hear it in my tea. They do an incredible job of teaching you all the mechanics of how to start a company. They teach you. You know that you that you need to persevere, they teach you that you can do it. That's the main thing that I got here. it was Oh, just electric to feel like everybody was telling me you can do this, you know, Um and and that's important. It's what it's really important to have that confidence. But on the other side of it was this massive will wait. Everyone's telling me I could do it. So if I don't do it, well, then I've failed in what I am. I What's the point of me anymore? So fast forward, you know, Trail did fail. We closed up shop in 2017 and and yet took me about a year to really sort of get fully back on my feet feel yeah, because I felt like my identity was my startup. And if my startup failed than I had failed as a person and you know,

spk_1:   22:02
right, and you put so much intellectual and emotional effort into this vision and then you sort of have to lick your wounds, regroup and say, What is my new vision? I haven't focused on one thing. You know, if you're familiar with Lin Oliver, um, he used to say that soccer and soccer there was there was really just three states of play. You have the ball you're trying to get the ball and in the dominant state is that in your some sort of transition on? And so uh, he was saying that you know that most of soccer, most of work and life is about being in that zone of transition and that zone of uncertainty. Yeah, and I think that's something that's hard to, um, It's not a comfortable state. No, but we spend most of our time of that. Whether that's how that you have a new child, you're probably some sort of uncertainty has to have. What's the What's tomorrow gonna break? That's exactly right. And so this mindfulness component that you're that you're working on is right. How does that help address that?

spk_0:   22:59
Well, so that's That's a big part of what ultimately got me out of that sort of depressive state. Um, I went to a monastery, actually, for five weeks Buddhist monastery in California, and that played a big role in originally. I went there just just like my attitude towards entrepreneurship. I was like, Well, if I go to this monastery, then I can solve my migraine because I'll be meditating all the time. Um, but instead, write what I learned there is right. You can you can keep grasping as the Buddhists say you can keep grasping trying to find the solution. But, um, life continues, you know, each day continues. So even if you find the solution for that day will the next day, there's gonna be some other problems mother challenge to face. Um And so I've realized now it's really about just living each day, living each moment, enjoying what's happening, and it doesn't mean you don't plan and it doesn't mean you don't work your ass off. You still do those things. But you're not, um, living in the sort of vestiges of the past and you're not constantly looking to the future thinking, Well, it's gonna be better in the future. Make it better now, you know, let's let's enjoy what's happening right now. So I found, um, I started a coaching business and started working with, um Renaissance women mainly, and then branching out thio all kinds of entrepreneurs and freelancers.

spk_1:   24:30
And when you say renaissance women, people with women with a lot of interest in skills, and I cut myself right, I totally relate to that. Whether it's singing architecture, er

spk_0:   24:40
exactly. Technology. Yeah, yeah, and it's been just fabulous. You know, the immediate gratification that I was looking for all along I have found in coaching because you're working with people directly. You can see you know, it's your Most of what I do is remote, um, over video conference or over the phone. But I can I can see their brains turning, you know, as we have these conversations and then in a matter of weeks, you know, they've gotten to the other side of, ah, conundrum they were facing, and it's it's just delightful. Um, So then what I did is, ah, last year. I, um I had this idea for how to do this in a larger way for entrepreneurs. Um, because I just feel like nobody needs to kind of go through what I went through and what many, many, many, many, many entrepreneurs have gone through, um, with, you know, facing this these challenges alone, um, or seemingly alone when in fact, not a puzzle alone. We're all going through the same stuff. Ah, So what we did is we piloted this program entrepreneurial confidence in communication that I created at, um, the Delta V accelerator this past summer, Um, here in my tea, and it was awesome and, um, very, very rewarding for for all involved. And the best thing is that we got some really great data out of it. So we now can show that it really did make a difference in the well being of those entrepreneurs. Um, and that this is Then, you know, something that can be extended to, uh, the entrepreneurship community in general. And hopefully we can sort of change the paradigm from You have to work all the time. That's the only way you're going to be successful, too. Um, you know, let's let's work smart, as they say, Um, let's work hard. But let's work. Smart

spk_1:   26:31
is the goal for you. Do you think that this is so This was a 12 week accelerated program. How did you recruit the first cohort? Well,

spk_0:   26:40
I mean, I

spk_1:   26:41
just felt like this.

spk_0:   26:42
Yes, I while I was the luckiest person in the world because I just got to come in and, ah, work with co hurt that, um, that they had accepted for Delta V. So it was 84 entrepreneurs, um, in AA teams that were sort of housed at the dress center in Cambridge and then also the startup studio in New York City. And, um, we made the E C C, as we call it, entrepreneurial confidence and communication. We made E. C C a mandatory part of Delta V, which was important because it it made everyone, but it allowed everyone to speak with a common language. Um, and it completely eliminated the stigma of sharing in this kind of environment. So what we did is we had a sort of a basic curriculum of self awareness curriculum that was disseminated via e mails each Monday and readings. And then we had small group sessions every other week. And, um, no. Two members of the same team were in the small groups. So would it enabled you to do, and everyone agreed to confidentiality in those small groups. So it meant that you had, you know, five or six people and a coach like myself for my two collies who helped out who you could you could say anything to, you know, which is just so unusual on entrepreneurship because most of the people that you know have some kind of stake in what you're doing, Even friends and family. It's hard to be totally honest, because you want to seem like you're killing it. You know, um, so we really found that people were ableto, you know, let let down their guard and really talk about what was worrying them. The challenges that we're facing. And then they were able to find out that the other people in their group were also facing those similar challenges. And it just makes everybody feel better when they know that they're not a lot.

spk_1:   28:38
No. Stone is, um, introducing while they have this This, uh, the three pass. And if you've heard about this the superhighway traditional superhighway, you got a business school and you join Goldman Sachs or Mackenzie or one of these kind of set organizations. Then there's the, um the jungle, which is you kind of partly between them. Ah, And then there's the dirt road, which is setting off on your own. Yeah. Hacking away through the jungle ends on it with no no direction. That Z you're setting the direction that Sure. Yeah. Um, so I can see how this I don't know if they're gonna keep doing this is this? Is this something that's gonna come through the trust center in the future? Is it something is gonna happen again next summer?

spk_0:   29:20
Yeah. So, actually, we're figuring that out right now, which is really exciting there. Bilal, Ed and Trish Carter, the people that I'm working with, mainly the trust hunter. And they're excited about the possibilities with this. So we're deciding, um, how how this is gonna sort of manifest in Delta V next year and and beyond, but it it's it's very exciting. The data we've just released. So, um, and in fact so a little bit of the highlights of the data that we found is that in the beginning of the program, before we we basically gave a survey. At the beginning, we gave a survey. The end pretty simple. Um, and the beginning survey 21% of our cohort are 84 people. Uh, we're practicing some kind of meditation or mindfulness exercise mindfulness as defined by themselves. So we didn't define what those practices were, but they many people, you know, it was breathing exercises. Ah, the sort of traditional definition of mindfulness which is noticing your thoughts, feelings and sensations. nonjudgmental e on purpose that some people were doing that, Um, some people were doing yoga, and they define that as mindfulness, um, so that but that was just 21%. By the end of the 12 weeks, 88% said that they were practicing at least weekly their own meditation or mindfulness practice, which is really exciting because we didn't require them to make a practice. All we required was show up for the small groups. It's every other week for a Knauer, and, um, but people, they we told them the benefits of this. We sighted lots of scientific studies that show the benefits of meditation and mindfulness. And and they found not only that it was a useful practice, but a useful practice for themselves, which was really exciting. And then we we found some other really interesting things, like recent stat I was looking at is more than 20% of companies not start ups, but but, um, corporations in the U. S. Have some kind of meditation or mindfulness training available to their employees. And it's just crazy to me that that we haven't done this in entrepreneurship at all. So you and the mindfulness market now is over a $1,000,000,000 in the US, So there's an opportunity here. And what it's exciting is now we can show, okay, they're measurable benefits. It's not just, you know, crunchy woo woo stuff, which is what people thought in the past. I thought that, I mean, I was totally ignorant. And now I realized this This is, um, very science based. And and it works.

spk_1:   32:07
Yeah, I guess it should be hopefully added to another metric of a company's success beyond share price revenue. Profitability?

spk_0:   32:14
That sounds good.

spk_1:   32:15
Yeah, Yeah, Hopefully we'll get there. So do you have a favorite professor or a memory from your thymus long?

spk_0:   32:21
Oh, my gosh. Oh, there. There are many I really, really loved being its own. Um, favorite professor, that feels I feel like I shouldn't say

spk_1:   32:31
that no one's listening.

spk_0:   32:37
Um, I honestly I took so many entrepreneurship classes, and, um and really, I I feel like I'm gonna make his head really big when I say this, but but I I love working with Villette. Um, yeah, the the what I learned from him in those classes was invaluable. And one of the things that I really appreciate with with what he did. Is he really brought in? And Roberts also did this in the intruder entrepreneurship class. They just brought in so many people to talk to us. So it really was this kind of learning by osmosis thing where at the time, you were kind of like one more person talking to us about their experience. But, oh, my goodness. When I got out of Sloane having that sort of menu of experiences that I had heard, um, I was able to call on them and say, Oh, yeah, wait, I remember that, you know so and so from that start up, you know, experienced the same thing. I'm not a crazy person, you know? This is part of the normal journey. Um, the

spk_1:   33:39
sand is really rich.

spk_0:   33:41
Oh, yeah, it was It was so helpful. Um, and really, that's played in tow to the SEC program. Also, this idea that the sharing is a good thing, you know, the more we talk about our experiences, you know, the more we can benefit from others experiences.

spk_1:   33:59
How about a do over Any anything you would want it over, or if you could go back. What would you do? Well, because they're course or, uh,

spk_0:   34:06
some people in my family find it and nauseous that I say this, but I really don't have any regrets. I'm just I've never been a person that so, No, I I just I wouldn't do any I wouldn't do anything over. I am I You know, if I if I if you make me pick something, I, uh I there was, ah, meditation group called Sloan. Sit when I was at Sloane, and, um, I thought to myself at the time, that seems like a good idea. I should probably go and experience that. I should go sit with these people into meditation, because at the time, I had never meditated before. Um, but I thought that seems smart. Um, but then there was this other part of me that thought that if I go do that, I'm admitting that I need help. You know that I need something else that I'm

spk_1:   34:58
not capable in there.

spk_0:   35:00
Exactly. Right. Good. In fact, yes. Meditation or mindfulness. When you really get into it, you realize it's not some you know, magic pill that you suddenly feel better. In fact, it really, really helps you very much. Look at yourself the way you are, the good and the bad, and it can be quite uncomfortable, particularly in the beginning. People, people think like, Oh, well, I'm not gonna meditating because I feel frustrated when it when I'm doing it or afterwards, and it's like, Oh, yeah, Don't just keep

spk_1:   35:27
doing it. Yes, what is it you're doing?

spk_0:   35:29
That's it exactly. Because in fact, if you allow yourself to feel that frustration and you sit with it and you feel that uncomfortable feeling, you'll get through it and then you won't feel frustrated. But if you stop right in that frustration, you'll just keep hitting that frustrated wall. Um, so anyway, yeah, I sure I wish I had gone to silence it, that

spk_1:   35:48
that would have been a good thing to do. How did you pick Sloane at the time when you were looking for a business degree or

spk_0:   35:54
yeah, I A zay. As I was mentioning, I really, um I knew I wanted to focus on entrepreneurship. I knew I wanted to start a business, and, um and I was also on the sort of older end of people applying to business schools. I think I was 31. I know, I know. Maybe I was 30 when I started anyway, and was in my thirties. Um and so I was looking at at programs that I felt I had the the, um you know, the sort of ah program that I wanted. You know, the entrepreneurship program here is over 50 years old. It's got an incredible reputation. Um, it's kind of the the seat really of entrepreneurship, education and s o. That was one thing. And then also, I really I wanted a group of people that identified with and I loved the principled leadership e those here. Um, I loved the sort of breath of the students, so I I only applied it three business schools, and this is the one that I chose to go to, you

spk_1:   36:53
know? Great. And what some What's your definition of success now?

spk_0:   36:58
Oh, my goodness. This is funny, because I was just I've been refining a framework for self aware entrepreneurship, which is, um, what the goal is now for me is to sort of spread the movement of self or innocent entrepreneurship. And at the top of this framework is success, right? Because that's what everybody wants, Right? Particular. When you start a company, you just want to be successful. You'll do anything for it, right? Um, but in fact, the layer beneath that is this. Well, there's some things in order to get success. You have some things you can control and some things you can't many things you can't write, and in order to negotiate the things you can control and things you can't you need to make decisions. And that all sounds quite obvious. But I think a lot of the times, you know, we feel like there's so much Ah, that's out of our control that we're not sort of really owning our decisions. So dance your question. The definition of success for me is is to be wide open, eyes wide open with those decisions I'm making, and ah, and not feel like anyone is gonna make her break it. It's just gonna take me to the next step, which is probably gonna be fascinating.

spk_1:   38:11
Interesting. So do you Do you still sing for tougher?

spk_0:   38:14
Hopefully, hopefully said, I've been moving around the country a lot in the past couple of years, so it's hard to develop a community, you really have to find a community of people toe toe, um, make art with. So I I hope to do that soon. I don't know that. We'll be in Missouri forever. Maybe Maybe we'll be here. We'll see what happens. But

spk_1:   38:32
so do you have any parting advice for prospective slow knees or students who are thinking about going to this loan?

spk_0:   38:39
I think, um, you know, when I went to business school, I felt like, OK, I've gotta I gotta take advantage of everything. And I think most people feel that way because it's so exciting to be in the environment. And they're so many options. Um, but I think I was proud of myself. Actually. What I did is I gave myself a deadline s O that first semester, you know, which is so crazy because its core anyway, um, you know, I said, All right, I'm gonna explore the arts and I'm gonna explore energy. I'm an explorer. Health care, cause I thought to myself as long as I'm going to business school and I'm smoothing away from opera singing and I'm moving away from acoustics, why don't I at least give myself the opportunity to sort of check out these other industries on I said, I'll do it for two months and then I'll center in on one and I did that. I I helped organize the ah bio innovations conference that first year, which was a great experience. Really glad I did that. But sure enough, Yeah, After two months, I was ready to make sort of make a decision and said, Yes, let's do the arts. So, um yeah, I feel like that was a good way of doing it. I think there are a lot of different ways that people organize their time, but But, ah, I would highly recommend that to any slow knees. Incoming Salamis.

spk_1:   39:54
Well, thanks to Kathleen Sets and for joining us today on Stony Stock was Thank you. And, um, her website is Kathleen Stetson dot com. And on there you'll see, I think I guess your mantra is making better choices for yourself and your startup. You kill it without killing yourself. Indeed. Leave it with that. Thanks very much for joining us today.

spk_0:   40:12
Thank you. I appreciate

spk_1:   40:14
it. Tony's talking with Sloane Eases, produced by the Office of External Relations at M. I. T. Sloan School of Management. You can subscribe to this podcast by visiting our website. M i t Sloan dot m i t. That edu slash alumni or wherever you find your favorite podcasts. Support for this podcast comes in part from the Sloan Annual Fund, which provides a central, flexible funding to ensure that our community could pursue excellence. Make your gift today by visiting giving dot m i t. That. CTU slash Sloan to support this show. Or if you have an idea for a topic or a guest you think we should feature drop us a note at Sloan alumni at m i t dot edu