Science Matters: An Interview with Dr. Brian Thomas

Science matters. Genesis matters. GenZs have been marked as the most anxious depressed, suicide-ideation-prone, atheistic generation in the history of the nation. The vast majority, almost 50 million, are taught in secular schools where the truth and beauty of God's word has been stripped from the foundations of education. It wasn't always this way. A destructive seed was planted 60 years ago that has taken root in American soil. Children are now taught a false "science" that ignores the overtly verifiable facts of Creationism, the truth of scripture. As a result, they are hopeless, adrift without an anchor. Join Dr. Lisa Dunne as she interviews one of CVCU's favorite scientists, Paleobiochemist Dr. Brian Thomas, and gain some practical resources to help those in your realm of influence see the truth, purpose, and hope embedded in God's design. Learn more at ICR.org! 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:04

Hi, I'm Dr. Lisa Dunn, and thanks for joining me here today on the Communication Architect. Each week we'll share content about what empower you to grow your personality capacity through the development of communication capabilities that make the help and relational results. Now, let's do this. Hello everyone, and welcome to the show. I'm Dr. Lisa Dunn, a lifelong homeschooling parent, author, and president of Chula Vista Christian University, a lifelong, a Bible-based university model that centers on mentor-driven, debt-free higher education. Education is formation. Why would we send a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, into a pagan system of education? Parents, your kids don't have to go woke or broke to earn their college degree. Join us for transformative education that's not yoked to a woke government system. Visit us at cbcu.us to see how we are taking back education for the next generation. Pastors, we can help you arm your congregation against pagan indoctrination. Just click the Start and Academy tab so we can help you launch your church-based academy in just four weeks. For preschool to eighth grade options, go to Academic Rescue Mission.com to find a support academy or start one of your own. And if your eighth to twelfth grader is ready for more academic challenges, join us for our new community college dual enrollment program. Your high schooler can take a college course once and count it twice for both high school and college. You'll get highly affordable classes in a safe, supportive, in-person environment that you can transfer to a Christian university. Join a campus at Veritascc.us or reach out to find out more about starting one of your own. And of course, our flagship program, Chula Vista Christian University. Starting in 11th grade, students can take a full load of college courses in our in-person, debt-free, faith-based model. Go to CVCUSUS slash apply to learn more. You can find all of our books, blogs, and resources online at cvcu.us. That's Chula Vista Christian University. I am so excited about today's guest. Now he's not a new guest. He has been on our show before, but he is sharing some new and exciting events happening in his world. And I know you will be very inspired by what he is doing. He holds a PhD in paleobiochemistry, a master's degree in biotechnology, and he's taught in high schools and universities where he lives in Dallas, Texas. He's also a science writer, an editor, a research associate with some new work at the Institute for Creation Research. We'll be talking about that in just a moment. And he's the author of several books: Dinosaurs and the Bible, Creation Basics and Beyond, which we use at Julia Vista Christian University. His dissertation, Ancient and Fossil Bone Collagen Remnants, is also available in book form. He's passionate about helping the next generation think critically and scientifically about God's design of the created realm. You know, Romans 120, one of my favorite scriptures. He's a frequent contributor to Acts and Facts, the magazine at ICR, and now of the Devo that I've been reading for 20 years. He's part of that as well. Um, as a paleobiochemist, his specialization is analyzing the tissue of recently excavated dinosaur bones and assessing the findings in the light of creationism. He teaches a freshman apologetics course for CVCU, Science and the Christian. We'll talk a little bit about that. He teaches students to reason and analyze scientific theory through the lens of the biblical worldview. We're so excited to have him on the show today. Please join me in welcoming Dr. Brian Thomas.

SPEAKER_00 3:55

Yay. Wow, is that in? Can you be my person to introduce me for all my speaking engagements, please?

SPEAKER_02 4:02

I was just thinking about when I was reading over your bio today, and I was just thinking, you literally are the reason we went to the Grand Canyon. That you're really the reason we started all those national park trips. And I know ICR has the national parks book. I just ordered mine. Very excited to read it. Um, but you created our signature course, Science and the Christian. You've had such a powerful impetus in the foundation of what we've done at CBCU. So I was just talking with students today because we're planning our next trip, and you were your name came up again about the Grand Canyon. Thank you for the many ways that you have poured into the foundations and into the lives of students. It's so powerful.

SPEAKER_00 4:53

Well, he used this person and that person and this person. And it's like, well, who am I influencing in that way so that someone else can come up and say, like I'm saying today, and they'll say in the future, you know, Dr. Dunn, she really influenced me. And because of her, I'm now able to do this and then that, and the Lord used me in this and that way. So um, so that's kind of where that's kind of where that started. And so thank you for connecting with ICR, and it's been a blessing to uh to work with to work with you guys. Although I'm in Dallas and you're not.

SPEAKER_02 5:21

I know it's why are you not here? California needs you. I think you're and I think I met you through ICR because I had been following Dr. Morris's work for a couple of decades and reading Days of Praise, even before you were writing for it, which is just so amazing. Um, but I'm so thankful for I definitely want our listeners to hear about ICR history. Um, but tell us a little bit about your faith journey. How did you get how did you get to be where you are? How did you get to be a paleobiochemist? That's just one of my favorite degree programs in the whole wide world. Uh, tell us a little bit about your faith journey and how you got to where you are.

SPEAKER_00 5:53

Yeah, sure. Um was born again uh at age 13, and I heard the gospel clearly, and um, I needed to hear it really clearly because I thought I was good to go. I thought I was a Christian because I went to church and I was better than all the bad kids. And uh so I did I wasn't a listener, I wasn't keyed up to hear the God, you know, to hear that I needed as I'm already good, I'm already a Christian, I don't need to hear anything else. And so I needed to hear, um, yeah, and so the the preacher said, Well, you may think you're a Christian, but in your heart of hearts, you don't you know that you don't have a relationship with God. I just thought, relationship with God? Oh man, I don't have that at all. You know, God is a God is this guy at a great distance. Um and so uh here's how you can have a relationship with God. Repent of your sins, trust in Him, and be born again. And so I did that, but I I spent the next eight years undecipled and just living, and my parents are not Christians, and so there was no encouragement there and uh in my faith. And boy, I just got wound up into the things of the world, the ways of the world, the the beliefs of the world, including beliefs like I evolved from apes, and those apes evolved from fish. And that being scientifically proven, I thought, well, this Bible, I know I trusted in the Jesus part of the Bible back long ago, but I don't I don't know which parts of the Bible to to believe. And so I just distanced myself from all of that, from God Himself as well, until a friend, um a guy uh accosted me, then later became my friend, and we were on a college campus, so this is eight years later, and here I am, and you know, a college kid, and and and I could tell that my life was not going the right direction. Um you live long enough making dumb decisions, and it's kind of like, well, these have consequences, don't they? And um anyway, so he offered uh by way of example, walking around with his Christian friends, witnessing an example of a of a of a different kind of life. And so I literally, physically, just like the disciples picked up their nets and followed Jesus, I picked up my skateboard and followed this group of Christians and got got some discipleship, and and uh the the leader of this group I mean Kurt and Brother Kurt is still a good friend of mine all these many decades later, and um he's a pastor now, and but he challenged me and he said, You believe you came from apes? Like what science what experiments have scientists done to to demonstrate you know that that is scientific, or you know, what experiments have they run to show that that apes turn into humans or what or like how does that work? Like he's asked asking genuinely, and I just thought, I don't there's you can't put that in a test tube. And he's like, Well, then how do you know it's scientific? So that the one set of questions, the conversation we had really set me on a challenging course where I had to go back and like, okay, I'm gonna prove this dumb Christian wrong, and I could never prove him wrong. And then he said, You know what? I know you're frustrated with this. Read a book from ICR, written by ICR's founder, Dr. Henry Morris. And um and if you can refute this book, I will stop bothering you. And so I read the book, and I just and it had all kinds of science that I had never been told. I mean, from every discipline, from astronomy to physics to um uh to you know fossils um and biology, and it didn't it didn't come in and say, you've got to believe the Bible, the Bible's right, none of that. Uh it just said, look, look at the science, look at the actual world we're actually living in, and see how it lines up with the creation and flood accounts in the Bible. And it's like my whole world changed. I realized the creation is true, the Bible is true. So, Dr. Dunn, I came back to the Lord, I followed him with all my heart because I knew I could trust him, because I could take him at his word. And that's why I've always been since that time. This is 19 back in the last century, uh, this is 1991. This this change happened. So I just wanted to know all I could know about the science that supports creation, and I've been passionate about sharing that um that news that science does support creation, it does support the flood. These events really did happen, and uh there's science to to back it up. So uh that's that's my passion, and so I'm I have been for 18 years, 18 years now at the Institute for Creation Research, uh, which was of course in San Diego. Right. We started in 1970 and we moved to Dallas in 2007. I was already in Dallas and had a job with my dream organization, and I've been here living the dream ever since.

SPEAKER_02 10:45

It's so incredible to see just the thread of what you did and what you heard as a child, how God awakened your heart and you now getting to do that exact same work for other people. I mean, I just remembering we were just talking in class today about like the Grand Canyon trip where you know we're standing, we hike down, and it seems super easy, and then you stand on the floor and you think, oh no, I have to go all the way back up. Are we going to survive? And just uh as we were traveling down, you showing us every layer of every rock and telling us the timeline of each one of those geological evidences of Noah's flood. And it was just such an eye-opening experience for even many Christian students who had never heard that part of the accuracy and the evidence that's all around us. I mean, just so incredibly inspiring. Um, and of course, tracks, then going on to found ICR, um, ICR founder, going on to found tracks, and that's the crediting agency we're working with, and just the the connective ties through all of these are really powerful. Um, well, I know you're doing a lot of work at ICR and and some incredible a new position, but also just as an institution, you are doing so many things. Uh, tell us a little bit about, we'll start with you're doing some homeschool conferences, and then you've got, I really want everybody to hear about your Dyno Dig experience. Let's let's start with those.

SPEAKER_00 12:03

Well, let me just thank you for that. Um, for context, we have about 65 employees. Um, we're here in Dallas, it's proper city limits proper, but stones throw from uh literally a stones roll from Grant uh from uh Irving. But um, we have a discovery center up here, and we have an events department, and we have six scientists who are also our speakers, and we have other speakers as well. And so that's kind of so when we say, Oh, you're you're doing these conferences and you're going to do these digs, I'm not doing all this stuff, I'm just doing parts of it. There's a whole big uh machine here that and you know what supports all of this is is people who are passionate about you know what we do, people who think ICR needs needs to exist because someone needs to stand up and say, you know what, this science, you know, whether it's geology looking at the rock layers in Grand Canyon, and we're going back to Grand Canyon this year. I'm not I don't get to go, I don't think. Although I may try to wiggle my way in because I love the canyon. Um but uh or or if it's biology, you know, we're doing experiments. We have a new lab here, we're doing experience experiments trying to get um uh sighted uh cave uh sighted fish, the Mexican tetra, uh, to morph into the blind cave fish uh version of itself, which it has done many times in the past, but we just don't know how long it takes or if it's coordinated effort we think it is, we're just testing all those things to see if you know God really did design these things, engineer these creatures to adapt, just like we'd expect from a benevolent and and uh all-wise creator. So, anyway, all that to say, there's a lot going on here.

SPEAKER_02 13:52

And um, so when we're going to these events, um well, let me say first I was just for parents who are listening in and don't haven't really thought about that idea of why is this such an important topic? And when we look at Gen Z's, the most anxious, depressed atheist generation in the history of our nation, and we see that the top two reasons that Gen Zs say they don't believe in God. One of them is they don't believe a good God would allow suffering, but the other one is they believe science and the Bible contradict. Now, friends, where did they get that? You know, we talk about it on the show all the time. They learn that in the public school system that the science and the Bible contradict, and it's a lie, it's a complete lie created to draw students away from the heart of God. Remember, death by millstone is what Jesus said the punishment should be if we lead one little child astray, and that is happening in institutions across the United States. So getting on board with things like what Dr. Thomas and the Institute for Creation Research are doing is so vital for us as we attempt to rescue the next generation from this indoctrination. Okay, tell us what else is going on.

SPEAKER_00 14:54

Amen. Thank you. Uh yeah. Um so you talk about the dyno dig. And so we did one last year in um eastern Montana, and we're gonna go back. Um, but I did last year's, I don't get to go to this year's, but the good Dr. Clary, our geologist, does get to go. And and so what you do for that, it's it's it's actually not just a dyno dig. You don't just go and you know, chisel away at the rock day after day and sweat. You know, there is some of that, but we also uh but we we're doing that in a place where the act the digging itself, the labor is actually easy, easier than a lot of other places, um in terms of labor-wise, but then but then also there's other activities that wrap around that whole experience. And um anyway, it's it's near the Glendive Dinosaur and Fossil Museum, which is a fantastic creation-based um fossil museum with with all kinds of fossil discoveries that they've made over the last oh 20, 15, 20 years of their existence. And um uh so anyway, that's that's that. And so yeah, fam, we've actually filled up the whole the first um tour, the first experience, and then we're working on there may be some slots left, maybe five or six slots left for the second week. But anyway, all these all the details on that, you have to go to the website. That's really the place to go. And it's icr. org slash events. And then um, yeah, so on that events page, you gotta find the Dino Dig experience and then click the sign-up tab and learn more about it and contact our events team, and they'll they'll they'll get you suited and and sorted. And uh same with the the the the Grand Canyon trip or the or the homeschool uh or any of the uh dozens of other events that are that are up there.

SPEAKER_02 16:43

Now I want to hear about your upcoming documentary, but first tell us about you mentioned your your lab and that you have T-Rex blood vessels, and they are what didn't you say that in your lab? T Rex blood vessels is that is that a thing tell me what's in the lab and what if people just want I we've had students that have gone just gone to to Dallas to see your lab. So uh tell us about it. Maybe we'll have some Californians that want to come visit you and see what you got.

SPEAKER_00 17:11

Boy, oh boy. Well, not very many people. I you know, I speak to mostly church, but audiences all over the place, and and I I just sometimes I just think to straight up ask them, have you ever heard of dinosaur blood vessels? And I get a lot of blank stares and shaking heads. No, no, no, what are you talking about? Dinosaur blood vessels. But they've been published in the literature over and over again, and but they're locked, you know, in the ivory towers of uh of academia. And so um it's I feel like I'm the only one out there saying, and I'm not, but I feel like like it's sometimes saying, look, look, there's blood vessels, and they're just fragments of blood vessels. They're what's left of blood vessels, but there's still bits of blood vessels inside the bone, um, just like it, you know, just like it was deposited, say, thousands of years ago only. Um, and because even after one million years, um, there'd be no blood vessel left at all. Um, and yet we have fragments of them still left over. And for the first time, after 15 years of studying this, I have in my hot little hand, as they used to say, um, glass microscope slides with blood vessels extracted, liberated from T-Rex uh bone, and they're mounted um on the glass slide. So I'm been I have been looking at through the microscope lens and taking pictures of these blood vessels and just marveling at the fact that these dinosaurs look so recently deposited. I don't think I don't believe in the millions of years anymore because these blood vessels have convinced me that the Bible got it right, that the flood happened only thousands of years ago. And this is a huge change of mind for me. I mean, this this took like four years for me to finally admit all right, the world actually does look young. But this is one of those prima facie evidences that I like to to point to. And you know, you uh each person gets to this, you know, gets to explain it in their own way. But the way I ended up explaining it is um it looks young because it actually is young, you know, and uh that's I think that's scientifically defensible. So yeah, it's been a blast. Maybe I should uh send you some pictures of blood vessels.

SPEAKER_02 19:28

Definitely want to see some pictures of that. Why is there so much deception around this issue? Why is there such a battle for the book of Genesis and understanding it as a literal account of creation? What's what's the playbook here?

SPEAKER_00 19:41

Well, it's the devil's playbook, Dr. Dunn, and if he can get the the world, and by the way, the the Bible says, you know, that that he's the prince of the power of the air and he's influenced the thinking of the ages, uh, you know, and so if he can get the populace at large to doubt our beginnings in Genesis, to doubt that we were created, then all of a sudden uh can all of a sudden we can convince ourselves at that point that we're not accountable to a creator. There's no creator, we can live the way we want to live, we can do what we want to do, we don't need to worry about a god, there's no such thing as judgment day or or right and wrong. We just make up life and go our own way, and we are the masters of our own fate and our own destiny, and here we go. Because Genesis is a joke because science has disproved it. But enter blood vessels, and then it's like, well, how do you explain these? Well, if they point to Noah's flood as the cause of these fossils, then that means the flood is right. And why did God send the flood? Because the people were wicked. In fact, it says in Genesis 6, their thoughts were only evil all the time. Now that's bad. And God said, That's it, I've had enough. And he rescued you know the eight who were on board the Ark. Peter says that in both of his books, referring to the eight that were on board the ark. Uh Noah, Mrs. Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth, his three sons, and their missuses. And uh so we came from them. We have descended from those eight uh in just the last 4,500 years. Genetics backs that up. That's a whole nother story. Um but it it it confirms that so that's the playbook. You ask, what's the playbook? What's the play? Well, the play is if I can cast doubt on where you came from, then I have derailed you from the truth about where you're going and who you are. But the truth is, we did come from creation. We the truth is, where are we going? We're going to either judgment day or um or we're in Christ. You know, we're we either get judged by God because we're not in Christ, or we're in Christ. And so He took the brunt the brunt or the wrath of our judgment on him. And if we are found in Him, then we are Safe in him. And that's a that's a journey that each person must take for themselves and decide, okay, I'm going to trust Christ because I am a sinner and my sins are my biggest problem, just like the Bible declares. That's where we're going. And so if we are saved and rescued by the Lord Jesus, then what are we here for? Well, we're here to worship and praise him and love him and adore him and enjoy him. And not just now in this world, but to we get to enjoy him as a side benefit forever. And so that's the truth. That's that's what we want. People that that's what the Lord wants for everybody, right? He's not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance, repenting from those sins and trusting in him. And uh, but but that's the playbook. If if I can, you know, if I can convince you that that there's there's no God, or at least if he is around, he's not really relevant, and you can't trust what he says because he told lies in his book that science is refuted, and um on and on the on the the attacks go. But Dr. Dunn, every generation has these same kinds of attacks, they just get sort of new terms attached to them. Um, but this is our generation, and we need to we need to do what you're doing and what your schools are doing, which is pointing people back to the truth, back to the creator, back to Genesis.

SPEAKER_02 23:16

Amen. I think parents a lot of times they haven't heard that kind of an argument and they haven't recognized how dangerous, how damaging, how destructive that an undercurrent of distrust for the book of Genesis can be. And now when we step back and we see those stats on the youngest generation that they literally don't believe in God because they believe that science and the Bible contradict each other. They have bought the lie. And so I that's why it's such a critical subject that we study, and that's why we're so thankful for you and the work that you and ICR are doing. What is uh tell me a little bit about the documentary on thin ice and let's talk about what's next for ICR and for you.

SPEAKER_00 24:00

Okay, so our guys have produced we have a media team, and uh so they have produced a new uh one-hour documentary. Um it's you know, it's it's not like like the old 1990s creation science videotapes, you know, where there's one guy in front of a room and he's sort of mumbling and it's like boring. Not at all. We are state-of-the-art. Um we're we're we're we're on location, we're we have b-roll, we have exciting shots, and and we jump from one scene to the next. Uh, but here's the thing. Okay, so when we were in the San Diego area for many years, 37 years, we um eventually built a museum over there. Um and um in that museum, that you know, you it's sort of a walk through history, and you get to um at one point there's a little corner where you get to walk through like an ice cave, and it looks like you know, it's fake icicles from the ceiling and everything. And uh there's a cre you know, there's a creation, the days of creation starts with that, and and anyway, then you then there's evidence for the flood, and then there's the ice age, really. And we we back then we would ask people, what was your favorite part of the of the museum? And it was consistently the ice age. And now we've built this discovery center, which is what our old museum was times 30,000, boosted on megasteroids over here. Uh, we have a much larger facility, state of the art. We have animatronic dinosaurs, we have touch screens, we have um sand tables, it's interactive, it's it's um, it's it's just excellent. And uh we ask them the same question and they give the same answer. They say, Well, the ice age, and we have an ice age theater where you can go in and watch an eight-minute um it's like a super wide, like triple wide um wraparound screen that we have in there. And anyway, so this is impacting people because of what you've been talking about, Dr. Dunn, where we hear the same thing, this like a drumbeat our whole lives, all growing up. Well, the last ice age a million years ago, and we look at our Bibles and it's like, where's there's no ice age in here? There's no millions of years ago in here. So I guess I don't know who to believe the facts that these scientists are putting out about the ice age a million years ago, or the facts like which which one is factual, and how do we know what do we trust? And so our um physicist Dr. Hebert and our um our our geologist um as well work together as the experts in this documentary, and guess what it does? It puts the ice age where it belongs, and we use we use the actual facts from the ground, from the earth, from the the the remnants of the ice age, the the the the uh parts of the earth that that these um glaciers sculpted during the ice age, all kinds of things like that, features on the earth that that let us know there was an ice age, and we show that the only way you can even get an ice age is if you had a Noah's flood. And so that is just such an eye-opening thing, because then Christians go back to their Bibles, go back to Genesis with with renewed appreciation and say, Ah, so this really happened, and this is why we even had an ice age, and Abraham lived during the ice age, and that's why when he looks in Genesis 13 over these well-watered lands, it says in verse 10, talking to his nephew Lot to you know, to say, hey, you go and you live where you want to. So so he saw the well-watered land. Well, it's a it's the Dead Sea, it's desert, it's no, it's not well-watered anymore, because they were talking about it back when it was during the ice age. And uh, so those kinds of things. And that's so that the Bible comes alive, and then you realize, oh, these were real people, these events really happened, and I can trust the God who's responsible for this text. I can trust him with my very soul.

SPEAKER_02 28:05

Amen. And that's you know what, that's really the root is the distrust, the doubt versus we can trust the God of the universe again, the Romans 120 model, that his invisible qualities, his character's nature are evidenced in everything he's created. If a parent were listening right now and he or she had to pick up just one book, one book, what would be the best book for, let's say, an elementary school kiddo who's already been indoctrinated and want to bring them out before that worldview sets in? What one book from ICR would you recommend?

SPEAKER_00 28:34

Well, the best book for the parent is the one that I wrote for the parent. And it's called Living in Light of Genesis. And it goes through and explains um why we should get back to Genesis. You know, and it explains what families look like when we live as though Genesis was history. And I'm thrilled to report that that's how we raised our family. And we we homeschooled for part of the time our five kids, and um and we taught them the Lord made you, but that's that's how that's why you're here, and that's who the Lord is. He is the creator, that's his identity. And that's step one, that's baby step one that our culture has lost. And um, well, by God's grace, our five kids grew up, four of them got married, and four of them had kids. So I've got all these grandkids that I wasn't expecting. We had four grandkids just last year. We have five total. And um uh so cousins are like all the same age, it's just an absolute gaggle. That's amazing, and uh uh but but this is the joy, this is the these are the side benefits of just living in light of Genesis. And those are just some tidbits about the book. We have the we have it as an audio book. Yes, I read the whole thing like multiple times in the studio because I kept messing up. It's crazy how much skill that requires.

SPEAKER_02 29:56

And uh well, you know, popular I was just gonna say popular mechanics just came out with an article that said uh that warned that humanity is disappearing and we'll see the fate of it in 40 years. Like, you know, disobey the god the directives of Genesis of be fruitful and multiply, and now here we are. Oh no, dire consequences. Who would have expected it? Um, I just love that everything is tied in, and I just think the work that you're doing is so essential to this generation. So, parents, go to icr.org, check out these books, and get your family's worldview lined up with the biblical truth of God's word. Dr. Thomas, thank you so much for being on the show today. What a joy to have you back with us. Thanks for all you do.

SPEAKER_00 30:36

Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_02 30:37

Thank you to Dr. Thomas for such an incredible interview and to ICR for the tremendous work you and your team are doing to shift the culture for the kingdom of God. Friends, education is formation. Who's teaching the children and what are they being taught? One of the amazing offshoots we see in the Trula Vista Christian University model is not just the academic support, but also whole student development that comes from having Christian world-viewed mentors speaking into the lives of your children. Our children need relational, emotional, and spiritual fortitude to thrive. Pastors, I'm calling on you. Go to academicrescue mission.com. Let's open up our church doors. Let's bring in the next generation. If your kids are in public school right now, we have a new program. We want to help you bring them Christian content. We want to tell you all about this work that we're doing. Fill out the contact form at veritascc.us to join us for an upcoming parent meeting. And for our full university degree programs, go to cvcu.us. That's Chula Vista Christian University. Again, I'm Dr. Lisa Dunn. Thanks again for joining me on today's show. I'll be back next week with more tips and tools of the trade. We'll see you then. Thanks again for joining us here on the Communication Architect. If you have questions about today's episode, or if there are topics you'd like to see us address, send your comments via Instagram to at Welcome or find the email to at Welcome.com. It's DSM to Strategic Communication Health Great Health and Revolution. So don't miss the next episode. I'm Dr. Lisa, and I look forward to talking with you next time right here on the communication.