The Duratus Mind - Kevin Gaskell - Former Porsche, Lamborghini and BMW leader and author

Kevin Gaskell has led the iconic brands, Porsche, Lamborghini and BMW.  After driving the turnaround at Porsche and leading 5 years of record growth at BMW, he was recognised as one of the UK’s top 40 leaders. He left BMW to set up his first technology business which grew to be an international success. 

He has built, or transformed, 15 companies and his teams have created over 5 billion dollars of shareholder value.  One of his companies was recognised as the best private equity investment of the year. 

With his son he has walked to the North and South Poles, climbed some of the world’s highest mountains and broke world records rowing the Atlantic Ocean to raise money for numerous charities.   He has played international cricket .....and now relaxes by playing in a rock band. 

His books "Inspired Leadership" and "Catching Giants" can be viewed here:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Inspired-Leadership-Achieve-Extraordinary-Business/dp/1119383021/ref=sr_1_1?crid=A7K4X8PVDTZ0&keywords=inspired+leadership+kevin+gaskell&qid=1670514670&s=audible&sprefix=inspired+leadership+kevin+gaskell%2Caudible%2C49&sr=1-1

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Catching-Giants-World-beating-business-lessons/dp/1912300524/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_1?crid=1KOIN01XUN2E5&keywords=chasing+giants+kevin+gaskell&qid=1670514842&sprefix=chasing+giants+kevin+gaskell%2Caps%2C51&sr=8-1-fkmr1 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:36

Okay. Today on the Duratus Mind Podcast, I'm very grateful to be interviewing a man that's got lots of sage advice in the topics that we're going to be discussing. Kevin Gaskell, welcome to the Deratus Mind Podcast, Kevin.

SPEAKER_00 0:50

Hello, Gary. Great to be here. Thank you for the invitation.

SPEAKER_01 0:54

Genuinely, I mean it my absolute pleasure. We met um a number of months ago now up in uh up in in Manchester with doing a bit of leadership talks around with Man City and their staff. I listened to your talk, and I as as with anyone with experience in this field, I was fascinated. Again, it's uh I'm I'm some way down the leadership journey myself and I and I've my my own experiences, but I'm always keen to learn about other people's and and I'm really looking forward to this conversation because I know there's a lot of people listening or will be listening to this, and uh they've got a lot that they can learn uh from yourself. So um super excited, and I genuinely mean that. And uh to kind of let help people paint a bit of a picture themselves. Are you could you just canter through your quick bio 60 seconds, two minutes, as long as you need to just uh explain your background, please.

SPEAKER_00 1:44

Sure. So I was born in Macclesfield, south of Manchester, um, grew up in North Wales because my dad's job moved to there. Um, all my life I've been wandering up and down hills and mountains, um, went to a local comprehensive school, worked really hard, got decent A levels, went to university, studied civil engineering, which was what I always wanted to do. Was fortunate to be offered a scholarship to read for an MBA, which I did and I enjoyed. And I came out of university um as an engineer, civil engineer, worked on a number of big building sites, um, enjoyed that, but felt it wasn't what I wanted to do forever. So after a few years, I moved into accountancy, which is a bit of a leap, but I'd um I'd studied accountancy on the MBA program, and I just wanted another string to my bow. So I studied accountancy and then Porsche, the car company, um, were looking for uh somebody who could understand a balance sheet and understand a blueprint. And I joined Porsche. I spent 10 years at Porsche growing through the ranks. Uh after five years, I ended up running the business. Um, five years of record growth, which was great fun, doing a big turnaround, massive turnaround of the company. Then I joined BMW, uh, five years of record growth there, and then I walked away. And at the age of 40, I started my first technology business. I've now built 15, I think. Um, and I'm still involved in five, and I I grow businesses and build teams. And outside of work, um, I enjoy outdoors activities. So I've walked to both the North Pole and the South Pole, I've climbed the world's biggest mountains. Um, and in 2020, uh was part of the crew that set the new world record for the fastest row across the Atlantic. So that's me.

SPEAKER_01 3:35

One or one or two things to scratch around there. Um uh if we sort of wind it back a little bit, um again, you've you've you've humbly uh spoke about your time at Porsche. Um didn't take too much looking around Google to know that you were Porsche's youngest managing director ever, if I've got that right. Uh correct, yeah, that's correct. So what was it that uh Porsche saw, and you perhaps were demonstrating that you think that enabled them to take what on the face of it might be a bit of a risk with a with a young um uh young man.

SPEAKER_00 4:12

Yeah, I think it was a huge risk. I mean, I wasn't just the youngest, I was the greenest. Absolutely by far I was the greenest. Um well the story is this for the for two years before I was appointed, the business had got itself into terrible trouble. Yep. And so we were number 32 out of 32 on customer satisfaction. We'd lost 990% of our sales. We had three years unsold new car inventory, and we were hiding cars everywhere. And the it's a family-owned business. So the Porsche and the PEC family who owned the business at that point obviously got very frustrated and came in through the doors and fired the senior execs. And and I was invited to meet them, and I actually knew them because I'd attended a couple of board meetings to make presentations, so they weren't complete strangers to me, but I was under no illusions that I was going into this room to get fired. So I thought, well, look, if they're gonna fire me, I might as well tell them what I think. So I walked into the room, probably shaking in my boots, and said, guys, let me just tell you, you can fix this business. And they said, How? And I'd actually been working really hard with a finance colleague of mine, the financial director at the time, and he was brand new. He'd been in three months, and we'd spent three months building a plan for turnaround of the business. And so we started talking. And I expected to be in there 10 minutes, and I was in there for four hours explaining what we would do. And they asked me to leave the room, and 10 minutes later they asked me to come back in, and they said, Right, you're the new managing director. That's the plan. Make it happen. And I was like, Me? Okay. So I think they took a risk because we had a plan.

unknown 5:56

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 5:57

I I was a known quantity, I had been there some years. Um, they could see the passion was bubbling out of me because I absolutely believed we could fix the business. And you know, what do they have to lose? They're going to go out and recruit somebody in the market, probably not. Who'd want to go to a failing business? So they gave me a chance and we we did a huge turnaround. And you know, four years later, we were number one in the market in customer satisfaction, we were number one in profitability, and instead of having three years unsold inventory, we had a one-year forward order back. And it was the same team of people, it was done with the same team of people, didn't change anybody. Um it was all about pulling the team together, yeah, getting a plan, you know.

SPEAKER_01 6:38

Yeah, that that that is what and what are the what were the crucial things that you think that during that time? Because obviously I I hear that and I and I and I speak to I mean, again, it's quite a story, yeah. Um quite an example, but people would struggle with the the immensity, the enormity, sorry, of the of the task ahead of them potentially. So, how did you deal with that? What can manifest for some people? Things like imposter syndrome, a young 34-year-old man being asked to step up as a managing director, even at the time of uh, you know, maybe not on performance, but kind of you know, one of the biggest brands in the car world. And yeah, you know, being asked to manage that. How did you manage well you start with that? How did you manage that pressure internally that you can remember of being asked to step up to such a big, big spot, a big opportunity?

SPEAKER_00 7:25

Yeah, I mean, the pressure was enormous, and the the visibility was enormous. You can imagine we were all over the press. Yeah, the press had written the brand off. We were front page headlines of the Sun uh newspaper, uh, just um expecting the failure of the company. So it was enormous visibility in in that regard. And and we we the way we approached it was we we sat down as a team, so a senior team of uh about seven or eight of us, we'll have to sit down and list the names now, but seven or eight of us sat together and said, right, what are we gonna do? How what are we gonna set as a target for this company? You know, the first thing people start talking about is profit. And we didn't. We said we've got to get the customer service right, because when the customer service is right, then people will come back to the brand. It's not a the profit follows the customer service, not the other way around. And so the things we changed were we we prepared a plan, which we wrote down, and it was a it's a cascade plan, it showed what we were gonna do and where we were gonna do it. We made a massive cut in the headcount. So I laid off 50% of the staff the week after I took the role, which was horrendous. You know, I knew all these people. I'd been there for five years. I knew everybody. I knew their wives, their husbands, their kids, their dogs. And it was just a dreadful day. And I went back in my office and I locked the door and I cried my eyes out. I was just overwrought with firing my friends, but we had to get the cost base down to survive because the banks wouldn't give us any money. Um, but then it was about right now, let's get on the front foot. So it's about communication. Here's the plan, and this is where we're going. And so I spent all day, every day, communicating where we were going and why we were going there. Um, I appointed around me um people to new roles, they were the same people, people I've been working with, but we appoint them to new roles, gave them a lot of authority, they've got a clear plan, give them authority and accountability and let them go. Um, we changed the rules with the dealers. The dealers previously had been seen as you know almost the enemy. You send them a car and they sell it. No, hang on a minute. If they're not successful, we're not successful. So I did crazy things. People told me they were crazy, which now still seem entirely logical to me. So I kind of created a management board where I brought the big dealers in. So they became part of the board. So they were making decisions with us. So they were seeing the whole um the whole vehicle journey. You know, here's here's what we pay for it, here's what we do with it. But it wasn't just a case of them arguing about their margin on the car. They were helping us to build a new marketing strategy, and we took that to market. Um, PR was an enormous, enormous part of it. Um, I appointed a PR firm who frankly did it for almost nothing because they wanted the Porsche brand on their masthead, you know. And they were hugely helpful, and the head of that PR firm is still a friend today. But what we did that way was we became human again. So we we went away from being, you know, the arrogant Porsche that people perceived and the yuppie car. Because we perceived as a yuppie car, and in fact, yuppies never bought our cars. Our cars were always 90% of our cars were bought by entrepreneurs, people who had their own businesses, average age 50 high, 57, 58. It was never the yuppie market. That's not where we were. So we we got the messaging out there. Um, we became very humble. So we opened the doors and brought customers in and showed them backstage, showed them what we were doing, showed them our passion for the brand, and you know, invited them to come see how we work on engines, come and see the leatherworks, come and see all of that. And of course, customers love that. You're not buying a car, you're buying a you're buying an experience when you buy a Porsche. Um, but I think the one of the things that that really made the difference, apart from engaging the team, and we engage the team by giving them a chance to drive the cars, you know. And I asked the staff, how many of you have ever driven one of these cars? About 10 hands went up. I said, Right, we'll change that next week. We'll all go to proving ground and everybody drives the cars. It's done in safe conditions, but you know, you get to drive the cars. But then the working with local and regional press, we were seen as um uh remote, you know, unachievable, unattainable. I, as the Middlesbrough Echo motoring journalist, would never get to drive a 9-11. You know, that's what that was the perception, that was the reality, in fact. But I had plenty of cars, I had a lot of cars. So I started ringing journalists and I'd say, hi, uh, my name's Kevin Gaskell. And I had built a press team as well eventually, but my name's Kevin Gask, just been appointed, managing director of Porsche. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yes, I'm I'm pleased you've heard me. Thank you very much. When did you last drive a Porsche? You've never driven one. Well, how would you like to drive one? Yes, no, we'll deliver it. Here's the deal. I'll deliver you a 9-11 next Tuesday. You can keep it for a week, but the deal is you then drive it back to us at at the factory, a head office, and you have to interview me. Well, of course, for journalists, that's manna from heaven because they get the they get the story of the car, they get the drive in the car, but then they also get access to me to do an interview. So they get two stories out of it. And so we were very open and we spoke very openly about the challenges in the business, but we also had worked on a very precise set of PR messages. So as I was speaking to them, I would get these messages into, you know, I do the politician thing. Well, I know you asked me that, it's a very interesting question, but let me just tell you, and the the articles that got written were then getting across the real voice of Porsche, the real reason, some of the real heritage, and moving it back to its roots of quality, engineering, design, integrity, and away from some of the you know the frippery and the the fuzzy stuff that the press had been speaking about um previously. Yeah, and and it was a collection of all of that, and making sure all of the team felt engaged, making sure everybody in the team was part of that plan, that's what turned it.

SPEAKER_01 13:37

So, again, there's a there's a lot to go at there. It seems like I interviewed you 20 years too late as well. So because I haven't got a nice. Okay. Um, so but that story, so you've got those experiences, and again, with our with our leadership, fundamentals of our leadership program and durators, we talk about authenticity. I'm hearing that all the way through what you're saying, that yeah help people to live the car. That you don't buy a Porsche necessarily to tell people you drive a Porsche, it's the experience that the Porsche gives you. And so you've got to help people to have that experience, and when you get it, it's a good one, and you'll love it, you'll tell your friends about it, and other people will want to have that experience too. I I understand that. You talked about accountability, you talked about communication, these three pillars that I bang on about all the time. Um, when you were in that role and you spoke also about a team, you've got a team together to resolve this problem. It's too complex for one person to do everything. You've got a team of trusted people around you. What are the things that you think you needed the most in that environment to really get that team to pull in the right direction?

SPEAKER_00 14:43

Yeah, well, we we needed clarity of purpose. So you start there. What is the what is the objective here? And it was not, and I always say this to to any business people I speak to, it's not 10 million profit or whatever the number, that's not the target. The target is to create a world-class experience for our customers. That that was what we that's how we expressed it. And we went out and we looked at a whole bunch of other companies. We looked at hotels, we looked at airlines, we looked at technology businesses, we went and looked at all kinds of businesses. And where we saw good ideas or processes that we thought we could use, we stole them. We just took the ideas back in. And you know, we we kind of put that in a melting pot and mix it up and portify it, but we created this new experience. And once you've got the clarity of purpose and people are not afraid to be innovative and speak up, well, then it comes down to trust. It comes down to honesty. And you know, I've got to tell you, Gary, and the probably not in the first six months, because we were so busy, you know, we were so busy whack-a-mole, banging things down in the first six months. But once it settles down a bit, as a leader, one of the hardest things that I found to do was give away the authority and the accountability and not go to the meetings. Let people make their own decisions. Because I thought, oh, blind, am I not doing my job? Or do they not want me then? You, you know, your self-doubt creeps in at that point. And you have to get through that transition to being on your business, not in your business. And if you can create the culture, my job, I saw it, was to create the culture of honesty, openness, uh, clear communication, direct feedback. You know, there's no bullshit in our business. And I got feedback from some of my team, and they're people I still see today. And it was painful and it was blunt and it was direct, and it was things I was doing wrong. And I still do stuff wrong, of course I do. I do a lot of stuff wrong. But I think now I've learned to process it. I've learned to realize that feedback is golden. And the only way that we'll improve the business or the operation or the mission or whatever it is overall is by everybody giving their knowledge back in. Because once people start withholding information that they have, then the whole team is diminished because you need that person to say, listen, I've seen this before, or listen, let me let me explain to you why that won't. Yeah, tell us, tell us. So it was it was about the communication. The difference was the community and the and the camaraderie and the teamship. Because you know, we worked hard, but we played hard. And and you know, I talked to people about frisbee time, and they say, What? I said, Look, my first board meeting, my first board meeting, I had my finance director and my logistics director punching each other, right? It was a that was the first board meeting, got each other by the throat and we're pulling them apart. And of course, they're both passionate about the business, but in in different ways. And there was a frisbee kicking around, I have no idea where it came from. It was a frisbee kicking around in the boardroom, and I said, Come on, guys, come on, come on, come on, follow me. And I took them outside, and there was a bit of grass, and we stood around, we threw a frisbee to each other. And initially, you know, you get the the staff are looking out the window thinking, what on earth is going on? But these guys then playing frisbee for 10 minutes, and it was all guys. Uh you know, I'm not saying that's clever, it was all guys at that point, but you just just let's just throw a frisbee for 10 minutes, right? Now let's go back in and talk again. Yeah, and and I I I generally call it frisbee time. Hey, 10 minutes frisbee time, come on.

SPEAKER_01 18:27

Uh let's just take the stress out. You can tell you can tell we're in the 80s when we're playing uh frisbee as well, right? Because yeah, yeah, yeah. But no, and and I there's so much there that people should realize again when we're talking via Zoom now, and again, a lot of meetings, a lot of conversation is held um via digital means, whether it's the well, not not a meeting via email, but kind of communicating via email or what's happened. We've got video communication now, and that's probably the the go-to for meetings these days. Whereas if we can just get in each other's space and interact as humanly as possible. And I love that we'd call it a circuit breaker to just get out of that in that moment, that immersion of just get out and then just process it, get rid of that stress, the emotion, then come back together to try and uh manage that. I think that's great advice. Um, any kind of tips, if you like, of how you've managed to reenact that you know later on in your career or in other environments, maybe.

SPEAKER_00 19:26

Well, it's it's kind of the same thing, you know, when it when it all gets a bit too stressy, you just just let's just walk out and not walk out and break up into three little clicks around a coffee pot, because that doesn't help anything. But but let's just find a way to do something different. Um, and and let's involve and engage other people. And also, you know, a trick I use sometimes is bringing in more junior people into the room, because none of the senior execs want to look like dicks in front of junior staff, so they you know they they control themselves a bit better. Um, so it's just it's just saying to people, look, it's all right to be passionate, we want you to be passionate, but do it in a constructive way. And when it bubbles over a bit, as you say, let's have a circuit breaker, let's let's do something different, and then let's get back to it.

SPEAKER_01 20:17

Yeah. So have you where's where's your role models been, Kevin, with regards to your leadership being, and how or who have you learned some of this from?

SPEAKER_00 20:27

You know, uh I've seen some great leaders through my long career. Um I read hundreds of business books. If I turn this camera around now, you would see I've got, I don't know, 200 books in here, 300 books in here, another 300 upstairs. My son's taking another 300. So I read, I I aggressively read business books because it, you know, if you just get one idea out of each book, it's worth doing. Um but my my role models had a great tutor at university. I went to the University of Bradford, you know, it wasn't a posh university, it was um Red Brick University, but it but it was it was great fun and I enjoyed it. Um and my tutor was fantastic, and and I had a pretty rough spell after the first year. I didn't think I was hacking it, and he was great, and he coached me through it, and then I ended up getting a really good degree. Um at Porsche, I had a boss, a German boss, um, who was a really great guy. I mean, absolutely great guy. And and you know, it's such a great guy that when I when I left Porsche, and then I left BMW to set up my own technology company. And if anybody knows who's started their own business, A, it's hard work, and B, it sucks up every pound you've got. Um, and we couldn't afford to go on holiday. And and somehow, somehow, and I don't know how, he kind of got the gist of this and he just phoned me up. And I hadn't seen him for five years. And he just phoned me up, we had a lovely chat, and he said, Hey, listen, what's what's your holiday plan this year? And I said, Oh, well, Dita, we haven't got one, you know. He said, No, he said, I can imagine running your own business. He said, Listen, I've got a flat in uh in Costa Blanca, and um and there's a car there. Get yourself there, you're welcome to use it for a couple of weeks. And it was just the loveliest thing. So he cared about me as a person, as well as you know, managing me, and he managed me really well. He was a very, very good manager. And then there was another guy at BMW, um, who again was a fantastic leader. Uh, and I I learned a lot from him. So I've got three or four through my career that I've learned from. And I'm working with a guy at the minute who's the CEO of one of my businesses. Uh, one of the businesses I'm involved with. I'm the chairman, he's the CEO. And he's grown that business enormously over the past four or five years that he's been CEO. And I learn from him every day. He's a fantastic leader of people. And I watch him and I admire and uh respect him. And I learn from him. Um so you know, we're never too old to learn, even from people. He's he's quite a bit younger than me, but I'm still learning from him.

SPEAKER_01 23:04

It's really nice to hear that that there's been those people that you can recall that have had that positive influence. Um we often I often hear people talk about, well, I've had lots of bad leaders, but they don't recognize a lot of the the positive lessons or messages they've had from good leaders or or role models, coaches, mentors, whatever they are.

SPEAKER_00 23:24

Um when can I just say something there? Because why those people, those three three people I just mentioned, or four with with um with the current guy, why they are so powerful is they're very good technically. They know what they're doing technically, and then you kind of take that as a given. But where they're really excellent is in the communication and the inclusion. So you feel part of their team, and they are fantastic at making you feel part of the team. And so, you know, I always say people's best work is not taken, it's given. People have to give you their best work, and in order for people to give you their best work, um, you've got to create the environment. My job as a leader is to create the culture and the environment where they feel A, they want to contribute, and B, they're able to contribute without fear. Um, so you know it's it's about catching people in, not catching people out. And and I always say, you know, being a leader is about celebrating when it goes right. And when it goes wrong, which frankly is at least 50% of the time in the real world, it doesn't necessarily go dramatically wrong, but oh, that didn't quite work.

unknown 24:37

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 24:37

At that point, that's when you put an arm around somebody and you say, right, well, let's see what we learned from that. What do we learn from that? Right now, let's go again. So you catch people in, you don't catch people out. And when you do that, you build the trust, and and they're not afraid to give you what is perceived as bad news. Because it doesn't always what they think of as bad news might not be bad news, you know, it's a learning opportunity. Yeah, so so that's that's where these people have have been special for me.

SPEAKER_01 25:05

I love that. When when you left Porsche, and again with your experience, like we talk about experiences times a thousand equals experience, and you you came from Porsche with a number of experiences. You you went into BMW. How did you uh gain the trust? Obviously, as a new face in an established team such as BMW, you know, how do you go about building that trust that's so vital to any leader?

SPEAKER_00 25:33

Yeah, I mean, look, I was appointed from outside the company. I come from Porsche, and there was a very strong candidate inside the company who wanted the job, right? And so I kind of walked into that and he had his supporters, but he also had his enemies because he was a very he his marmite personality, hyper-aggressive. Um, and you know, to be fair, he got stuff done, but he didn't take any prisoners. Um, and on my first day, he came into my office and said, Kevin, I'm not gonna work with you. And I said, and I said, That's okay, Jim. Um thanks for telling me. What would you like me to help you to do? Uh, and we ended up finding a way for him to move to an overseas BMW operation where you know, away he went by taking him out of the mix, because it was clear that he was he was going to be an agitator. And and you know, I listen, this is very early days, I hadn't even worked out what he was gonna be, but it was clear that taking him out of the team was it was a good thing to do. Everybody else relaxed a bit. But the the key was about inviting the BMW team to I call it dare to dream, because they've been very, very successful. And I inherited a plan, they gave me a plan. Um, the the German board gave me a plan and said, There you go, there's your plan. We love what you did at Porsche, but you know, that was a bit rocky, wasn't it? And I said, Well, it wasn't really rocky, we just changed a lot of stuff and made it better. Yeah, but it was all a bit, you know, it was all a bit uh I said, well, it was in the early stages, but it got a lot smoother. And in fact, the reason I left Porsche was it was all so smooth, I was bored. Um, so I said, Look, okay, I've got your plan, thanks very much, and it's to grow this business at 4% per annum. That was their plan. But outside BMW, you've got Audi, Lexus, Jaguar, you know, all these people, Tesla, everybody wants a BMW customer. They want to take them away. So I started challenging our business to say, how are we going to get, we called it clear blue water between ourselves and the following pack. How are we gonna do that? And and you know, what got us here won't get us there. So we need to think differently. And I did appoint a couple of people from outside the business because there were there were natural vacancies. Uh, brought in some people with some different experience, and again, I inherited a team with no females in the senior team, and so I recruited an HR um director. And I remember saying to the headhunter, I got two rules for this recruitment process. Number one, she must not be from the automotive sector, and number two, she must not be a he. I need some ladies in my team here. Um, so I started to mix things up that way, but it was much more about again the same process. Come up with a plan, define where we're going, understand what the big elements of that plan are, and then communicate, communicate, communicate. And a lot of that communication, yeah, you can do the formal stuff. You know, you do the conference and you announce it, and everyone watches the lights and the smoke, fireworks, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo. But the real communication was me walking around the factory, me walking around the workshop, me walking around the parts warehouse and actually stopping with somebody. So here's an example, here's a true example. Yeah, please saying to somebody, you know, what would you do to improve this parts operation? Because our parts operation was really good. And um, and I used to walk through, and you know, the first time you go through, it all goes quiet. And you can hear people saying, The boss is here, the boss is here, the boss, you know, it's massive, massive warehouse, the boss is here, the boss is here, the boss. And and you find a way to break into the communication. And I always joke, there's always a Manchester United scarf hanging up somewhere. So you say, you know, who's the who's the United supporter? Oh, hard luck, guy, you know, and you you start to build a natural rapport. And the guys in the passware house realize that you're just one of them. You just I'm in the same team, guys. Okay, it's a different name on the door, but so what? I'm we're all part of the same team here. So I used to talk to them, and they could tell me, they could tell me before the end of the month whether we'd had a good month or a bad month. They just knew by the number of boxes that went out, whatever it was, they could say, Yeah, good month this month, Kev, good month. And I'd say to them, What could you do to improve it? And one day, one guy said to me, Well, I'd take that wall out. I said, Sorry. Huge warehouse, wall right down the middle. And he said, I'd take that wall out. I said, Okay, why? And he said, Well, you stand here with me and watch. So we stood and watched the forklift truck operators picking the picking the boxes and then, but they had to go through a small hole in the wall and then come up the other side. So they had to do a diversion again, and it wasn't a real wall, it was an experiment wall. You could see through it. And I don't know why it was there. At some point, maybe it was some security thing, I don't know. And he said, I'd take that out. I said, Okay, what are you doing at the weekend? And he said, Why? I said, Help me, we'll take it out. And he said, Are you serious? I said, Yeah, I'm deadly serious. Let's take it out. So we got in some contractors and we took this wall out. And messages like that go flying around the business that if you've got a good suggestion, this bloke will listen to you. And then my job is to make sure all of my team also listen. So we've um I put some relatively young people, relatively inexperienced people, rather than young, inexperienced people into some quite senior roles because I wanted some fresh thinking. And so again, this catalyzed new approaches. And we we, you know, we instead of growing that business at 4%, we grew it at 80%. We grew operating profit by 500% over four years. And people said to me, uh, well, that was impossible. Well, it wasn't impossible, we just did it. But we had to do it by thinking differently, and and the thinking, and this is a point I try to get across to leaders. Nobody expects you as a leader to come in with all the answers, because if they do, you're in trouble because you ain't got them, mate. You ain't got them. You know, you're you know, I've got my specialism, you've got yours, but we don't know everything about everything. But if you're surrounded by a thousand people, you can be darn sure there's a lot of knowledge out there in those thousand people. So create the mechanism for them to contribute. And so this is what we do, and I have tools in the business. And and you know, I've written a book called Inspired Leadership.

unknown 32:07

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 32:07

See it over your own shoulder. Yeah, yeah, in there, in there, uh it's the st it's a story. I mean, it's the story of how we've built businesses, but all the tools are in there. So if you get that book, and as they say, available on Amazon and all good bookstores, but inspired leadership, if you get that book, all those tools are in there with photographs of how we use them, and you know, how do we engage people, how do we get people to feel part of this?

SPEAKER_01 32:33

Yeah, I'll um I'll share the link uh in the in the information on the podcast and on YouTube. But that that you said earlier about that you dare to dream in that mantra. You again we can see the see the phrase on your wall. How I guess the question is dreaming, dreaming's fantastic. And again, we we need to collaborate to create the best ideas, and you know, sometimes we need each other to stretch each other, but how do you then and how have you learned to um get that dreaming into action and people genuinely believing they can achieve what it is that they've dreamt about?

SPEAKER_00 33:09

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, dreams without action are just dreams and completely pointless. Well, I'll give you, for instance, let me give you an example.

unknown 33:16

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 33:17

So I was invited by uh a very large bank to go and represent them on the board of a boat company. And the board boat company is called Fairline, and it had gone through really tough times, 10 years of losses. Uh, the day I joined 13 rounds of redundancy, it was going through really tough times. And the bank had ended ended up owning the business. Now, banks don't like owning businesses, they're really not very good at running businesses, they're bankers, just like a boat company isn't very good at running a bank. A bank isn't very good at running a boat company. So they asked me and they said, look, we think it's rather like Porsche, um, because these boats started at about half a million pounds and went up to about six or seven million pounds. So, you know, they're expensive assets. Um, and they said, We'd like you to represent us on the board, which I did. And I got so frustrated that the board was dysfunctional that I agitated. And the chairman basically said, Well, if you think you can do it any better, why don't you become CEO?

SPEAKER_01 34:21

Heard this before.

SPEAKER_00 34:23

Yeah, so I said, Okay, then I'll become CEO. So it was a full-time job. So I moved house. I I I bought myself a little house down the road, and I I moved up. This place is in Peterborough, and I moved away from my family, and I went there in a full-time job. So, to come back to the point about how did I get people to engage. So, my first meeting with all of the staff was in a in one of the factories. I invited everybody together, and I literally just stood on a platform, a scaffold platform at the end of the room and spoke loudly, and everyone crushed up a bit. And I and I just introduced myself and I said, you know, I actually believe in this business and we could we could make something special here. And I said, you know, we need to understand what the biggest problems are and deal with them. And somebody shouted, You're the biggest problem. And I said, Well, I've only been here four days, you know, give us a chance. And and they said, No, no, no, it's not not you specifically, but the directors are the problem. So we started this discussion, and I've got 1,500 men in front of me and about two ladies. Not many ladies in my businesses, unfortunately, but 1,500 blokes in front of me with the and it's unionized business, and the front line are all the union reps, right? And my manufacturing director is a six foot three Scouser, and he's standing next to me. And I said to him, Hey John, we need to stand back to back here because I'm going to get slapped before I get out of this room. I mean, it was that aggressive. I thought I actually thought I was going to get knocked about in the car park, let's put it that way. Very, very aggressive. And when I said to them, look, I just came here to introduce myself, but why don't we talk? And I said to the union guys, why don't you come over to head office and we'll sit down together and we'll have a proper conversation. And the chief steward said, I've never been to head office and I'm not about to start now. Head office was 75 yards away. 75, I'd never been there. I thought, okay, I said, all right, I'll come to you. I'll come to your. So I went to them and we started talking in the canteen, which wasn't a very nice canteen. And over time, what was clear was they did have an enormous amount of pride about this business. They did believe in the company, they did want to build something special. And so my job then was to create the opportunity to get them on stepping stones across to where we needed to go. So, for instance, um, I asked them what their biggest beef was, and it was about um pay and rewards and a bonus system, which wasn't fair, and this and that and the other. So we discussed it uh during the afternoon, and I said, okay, leave it with me. And I said to said Joe, my Scouser Manufacturing Director and the finance director, Hey, what are you doing tonight? Nothing, why? Right, let's get together, get fish and chips brought in, we're gonna work this out. And we worked through the night. Well, that's not true, it probably finished about midnight, with what we were gonna go back to the team with. We created a PowerPoint presentation, and when the lads came back on shift at eight o'clock in the morning, we'd already got a screen up, projector up, and we're standing waiting for them. And they said, What are you doing here? We said, Well, you you asked us some questions yesterday, we're gonna give you an answer. Now, you know and I know that in most businesses, people go away for weeks and weeks and cogitate and think, and then it all goes quiet. No, no, following morning we're there. So we presented to all of them what our response was, and it was to give them more than they'd asked for. Stunned silence. I said, Yeah, but you've got to build the boats to support that. And we've got to build them to quality, you've got to build them to the right quality, or else I'm not paying you the bonus, but I'll pay you the bonus, and I've just lifted your base salary by this much. Now let's go. So that was the first big kind of uh uh icebreaker. Wow. Yeah, wow, this bloke's serious. Now my business has gone boss, so I had to do something anyway. So, you know, putting a bit more into the pot to do that is a kind of one-way bet. But then what we did was go back to what I said previously about having uh mechanisms. I call it the ideas wall and um group discussions around the business about how we can improve Kieris. These guys knew how to do it, they'd just never been given the opportunity to contribute. And we got that business back into profit. 10 years of losses, we got that business back into profit in 14 months. And you know what? It got to the point where um the the union guys would come across, and I took a picture of the chief steward. I I had this wonderful office, it was a beautiful boat company, and the furniture in my office was made by the uh the carpenters who made the beautiful marketry within the boats, and so they they built for not for me, but for the previous team, they built this beautiful office and it was really beautiful. I said to this guy, I said, Well, try the chair. Because he said, Oh wow, this is lovely, isn't it? Never been here before. Well, try the chair. So he tried the chair. I took a picture and I banged it on social media. Your next CEO, you know, I made a joke out of it. And again, it breaks the ice. People realize we're all the same team. But, you know, Gary, it comes down to communication and honesty and trust. And um things like, you know, I'm a professional speaker, I get paid now to go to conferences and speak. Well, while I was at Fairline, I was doing some talks, and people wanted to know the Fairline story. So I was telling them the Fairline story because we were going through it, and I got paid for that. But each time I got paid for that, I gave it to the finance director. And I said, put that in a pot, put that in a pot, put that in a pot. We built up this pot. And then at the end of the summer, I'd heard that the business used to have open days where families could come in and see the work the guys did. The guy's very proud, they build these beautiful boats. Yeah. I said, why don't we have a family open day? Well, we haven't done one for five years. Yeah, okay. Well, I wasn't here five years ago, so why don't we have yeah, great idea. I said, Oh, and we'll have a big barbecue and we'll have a big party and you know we'll we'll make it special. So, and I'd also heard that some people in the in the factory played in bands, in party bands, you know, pub bands and stuff. Well, I play in a party band. So I said, why don't we have a battle of the bands? And I'll bring my band, you bring your band, and we'll we'll go from there. And so that's what we did. So we we had this open day where the families saw what the lads were doing. We had a big barbecue, we had a kind of Kaylee, and then we had a battle of the bands, and it just humanizes the thing. We're all in it together, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:51

And so I'm hearing again authenticity all the way through that, Kevin. You're you're you're helping people to come together and to to present the real selves, you know, you're not you're not BSing them through these uh false promises, you're literally taking their input, you're converting it into kind of a uh in your think tank into a planning you're communicating that back to them the very next day. I love all that. In fact, when when we were when we met up in uh Manchester City, you you said and again it was where I saw a lot of our common ground with um you talked about the wall of ideas, the idea wall, and you get ideas that people have dreamt onto this wall. And we we talk about thinking ink and getting them outside your head onto a piece of paper and something you can take. And so those practical steps that I think sometimes gets lost in translation when people think they these ideas, these concepts around people, great ideas, and then it's you know, taking that into or turning that into a plan is is sometimes how people get tripped up.

SPEAKER_00 41:56

Yeah, and and you know, it was it it's it is about humanizing it and and inviting people to contribute. Um and I think the the final point on on fairline just for this conversation was we create a war room, W A R War, which stands for weekly action review. And all of the numbers, so you know, I here am I talking passion and communication, integrity and honesty, but behind it, you know, it's all very hard fact. And so in the war room, all the numbers are on um graphs and charts around the wall, and you can follow the whole thing. And I can't remember now, but it probably took me six to nine months to convince the unions to hold their regular meeting in the war room because it just happened to be a very convenient room and all this stuff, but of course, yes, did I have a did I have a um a hidden agenda? Of course I did. The hidden agenda was to get these guys to help me to look at these numbers, and so they start engaging because they know how to build boats. I don't, they've been doing it. We had three generations of boat builders, you know, we'd have son, father, and grandfather in the company. Yeah, so the knowledge is enormous, and and you know, we needed to download that knowledge, and and we do it in a non-threatening way by just putting them in the room, inviting them to use the room, and then of course, they want to engage.

SPEAKER_01 43:14

Uh, I love that. I'm familiar with war rooms myself. I love that. They uh the what I'm also here is the accountability. You've got all the data, and again, data for pure accountability, these are the facts, these aren't perceptions, beliefs, they're pure facts, and this is what what we need to do with this information. It's that feedback as well, being uh very open to feedback. And I guess where I want to take this now is is that there's no greater accountability than plonking yourself in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean with a small team of men trying to break a world record. Do you want to help people understand why you've applied these principles in a number of different fields?

SPEAKER_00 43:53

Yeah, I I mean look, I I said earlier on that I do expeditions for fun. It's I I've always done them, I've done many of them, and I love it. And the reason part of the reason I love it is I love the adventure. Part of the reason I love it is I love the self-um trial, whatever you call it, you know, pushing myself to to the limit sometimes. And and part of the reason I particularly enjoy it is when I'm doing that, I can't be thinking about businesses. And today, you know, today I'm I'm chairman of five companies, and that kind of eats up my whole mind if I'm not careful. But when you're hanging off the side of a mountain, or you're, in this case, in a in a a 25-foot rowing boat in the middle of an Atlantic storm, you don't tend to think very much about sales figures. So I do them because I enjoy them. Um, and I'm very, very fortunate in that my son has grown up to inherit that love. And so we've done them together. So we've done both polls together, we've done various things together. And I kind of run out of ideas of what to do next. And a friend of mine who's rode The Atlantic twice said, Kev, you should row The Atlantic, mate. You'd love it. And I said, Peter, and he's a professional adventurer. I said, Peter, I know nothing about rowing, I know nothing about sea navigation, I know nothing about nothing. You've got to be kidding. He said, Ah, I promise you, you'd love it. So I went away and I kind of cogitated on it. And I mentioned it to a few people, and then as it says in the book, um, I mentioned it at a conference. I was I was cornered at a conference. So, Mr. Gask, what's your next, what's your next adventure? Because sometimes I use I use pictures from the from the expeditions to make a business point. You know, uh, I've got one where my son is hanging off the side of a mountain, and there's a 2,000-foot drop underneath him. And I say, honesty, there's no substitute. You know, is that rope secure? Yes or no. There's no maybe. It either is or it isn't. And I've got my son hanging off the end of it, so I better make sure it is. So those are the kind of messages I put across with expedition pictures. Um and so I was backed into a corner, what's your next expedition? I said, well, I don't really have one, but I quite fancy rowing the Atlantic. Anybody want to come with me? I'm trying to make light of it, you know? And everyone laughs and says, Uh, no, thanks. And then one guy puts his hand on him and says, I would. I said, Okay, catch me afterwards. And sure enough, he comes up afterwards and we start talking. And it becomes a real thing. It becomes, you know what, we could do this. So I said to Matt, my son, hey Matt, I'm thinking of rowing the Atlantic. He said, You don't know anything about rowing. Yeah, but other than that, I said, Do you want to come? He said, No. I said, Why? I mean, he's 30 years old. I said, Why? He said, It's pain, pain, and more pain, and then you die. I said, Oh, come on, there's gotta be a good side to it. He said, Well, you might die quickly, there's your good bit. So I said, Well, think about it. So we created this little hubbub, and I'm I'm acutely aware of environmental issues. I'm not a campaigner, but you know, it grieves me to see the earth damaged.

SPEAKER_01 46:55

Couldn't agree more.

SPEAKER_00 46:56

And and plastics in the ocean is a big thing. And so I thought, you know what, we could raise the awareness of plastics in the ocean, we could raise some money, we could support uh a charity that's doing something about it. And so the whole thing came together. And so we created the team, it's called the Ocean Five, and we uh set out to row from Spain to Antigua. So we spent two years of planning, preparation, training, getting our uh navigation certificate, sea survival certificate, uh radio use, all kinds of RYA qualifications. Because strangely enough, the Coast Guard don't like it to just jump in a rowboat and set off. They get a bit they get a bit cheesed off about that.

SPEAKER_01 47:38

I hear it's quite successful from the coast of France to the UK right now, because they don't like it for sure.

SPEAKER_00 47:46

So we got qualified, we entered the race, and it is a race, um, but we applied the business principles to it. And you know, how do you compete against oarsmen who are there's potentially Olympic oarsmen in this, and there were definitely people who had a lot of experience of offshore rowing in the fleet. How are you going to compete against those? And so the book Catching Giants is about how we prepared ourselves, how we how we find percentage improvements in everything we did, and how we really the same as we do in business, how we got lots of ideas and we synthesized those ideas into improvements in the boat and in a in our approach and in our training. And you know, there's a lot of training involved. Um, you know, I'm an old man now, but I'm I'm I'm rowing with 28, 29, 30-year-olds, and these guys are expecting me to row the same as them. Well, we row two hours on, two hours off, forever. There's no break, there's no, you know, people think you've got this some kind of support vessel next to you that you get off into and have a shower and a steak and a beer, and then no, no, no, it's just us in the rowing boat. Nothing. Nobody, we don't see anything. So we trained very hard. Um, and we set off out of uh Spain, La Gomera, um, and we had a weather router who we had paid to give us advice, and we'd speak to him once a day, and he said to us, Look, guys, when you come out of La Gomera, everybody's gonna go southwest. The fleet will go southwest because they're they're trying to get to the trade winds, which are down there somewhere. You go west because there's a big storm coming, and you'll pick up the the following wind from the storm. But don't worry, it's not gonna come so far south it'll give you a problem. Don't you worry. So, sure enough, we go out of the out of the harbour and off we go due west. And we've done about 80 miles during the day, we're feeling pretty good, we've got a follow-in breeze, but then the sea state starts to change and it gets choppy, and then it gets more choppy, and then it gets big, choppy, and then it all gets very scary because nobody had told the storm not to come south. And we got enveloped on our first night in this storm. And cut long story short, we had six hours of battling. Um, I mean, look, trying to stay alive is you know, it's a it's a it can be an overstatement, but it was very, very dodgy. One wave, that one wave hit us and broke one of the oars, then another wave hit us and broke another oar. Um, so you know, we had that kind of power against us. And this little plastic boat, and I'm a structural engineer. And when I went down in the cabin, you get a little bit of a little bit of space to well, get something to eat, you know, get some calories inside yourself, get some fluids inside yourself. Forget sleeping, that ain't gonna happen. But I'm listening to this boat, and I'm thinking if this thing starts to creak, that means it's it's gonna break up. But it didn't, it was absolutely solid, it was great. And we got through the night and we found in the morning that we did actually, despite the challenges, we'd been blown well forward. So we're near the front of the group, we're number three or four in the whole 36-man, 36-boat fleet, and um we kept racing and we we applied everything that we said we would, um, and we raced very, very hard. And 35 and a half days later, we pulled into Antigua 23 hours ahead of the previous world record. So, you know, it was it was a fantastic experience. And and come back to the thing about communication leadership. The skipper on the boat wasn't me. Skipper on the boat was was um Kagle was Chris, because Chris is a professional seafarer, so you know, why should I be, why should I think I should be skipper? Because people kind of expected me, not not the crew, but other people expected me to be the skipper because you know I'm a business leader. Yeah, but that's a different environment of being in a Rhine boat, boys. So let's make the best man skipper. And Chris, a fantastic leader, great communicator. But we said our vision of success is to break the world record. But our principle is we will start as friends and we'll finish as friends because we had heard of a lot of crews who, you know, they go through, you know, we took 35, 36 days. Some crews take a hundred days to get across. And they can they can just disintegrate as a team because there's nowhere to hide. You know, if it starts to go wrong, it goes wrong very quickly. There's nowhere to hide. So we had made an agreement that we would be honest, we'd be open. I can only remember one crossword, and that was that flared up over nothing, and then it went away quite quickly. But we finished as as great mates.

SPEAKER_01 52:32

And um I love that you almost set you you gave yourself the principle or the value of uh starting as friends and finishing friends. And of course, it's it's nice to hear that there was crosswords, but you quickly was able to grip that because it's you know, it was you'd all agreed on that principle, those values, as we talk about before. Um one thing I liked as well, you mentioned there uh regarding the the race. You said in it in it was a race. And of course, for some people, entering a challenge like that, just achieving it, those people that take a hundred days just achieving it is uh the winning of their race. But you your team and yourself, you uh you manage to fine-tune that and you uh we talk about the the corporate athlete, and uh everyone doesn't view themselves as an athlete, but uh the term athlete is uh is somebody who enters into a contest and you'd through and through the team uh on the boat, you decided to enter the contest to to win that race. Uh whether you went out with the intention of trying to break the world record, I don't know, but you you set out to try and win that race, and that's a mindset. And is that something that you apply to a lot of what you do? All of what you do, is it a principle you live by yourself?

SPEAKER_00 53:43

I am completely competitive at everything, and um yeah, I'm just competitive. And and do you know what? I I played a lot of cricket. Um I played international cricket up to under 21 level, and I was a quick bowler, and I was very quick, and I was very aggressive. And I'm a big bloke, you know, I'm six foot three, so I used to scare a lot of people. I once had somebody score six head buys off me, hit them on the head and went for six. So I was big and aggressive, and and while I was bowling that match, you know, I wanted to win. But once we got in a pub afterwards, I'd completely forgotten it. And the following week, I used to joke, I couldn't even remember whether we'd won the week previous or not, because it's not important to me. In the moment, I want to be as competitive as I can be. Yes, but but I don't carry it, if that makes sense. It's it's not it's not, you know, what's it matter if you win a cricket match or you don't really, in the scale of things, doesn't matter at all. But when you're on the pitch, you want to do your best. So yeah, I am very competitive.

SPEAKER_01 54:45

I completely agree with you there, Kevin. And I and I'd probably put myself in the same bracket. I could I could get super competitive at over a game of Cludo with a family, but I could soon it's over, it's done. I've lost. That's fine. Do you know what I mean? I can I can live with it. But but how do you moderate that? Or how do you maybe coach other people to to moderate that?

SPEAKER_00 55:05

I think it's um it it's only for me, it's only something that's moderated with time. Yep. You know, I've I've matured and I realize that being hyper-aggressive uh in in a competition is is really not the not the overall best solution.

SPEAKER_01 55:22

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 55:23

And and so when I if I see people portraying those uh um that approach, I I will speak with them and and uh suggest that you know it's it ain't that important, it really isn't. Um you know let's have a giggle about it. Come on, it's let's just let's just just take it less seriously, just just let it go a bit. We'll all get there in the end. You know, we will all get there.

SPEAKER_01 55:49

I um I genuinely value the time. I'm gonna start trying to sort of close this, but there's a couple questions. So like you you've got 200, 300 bucks in front of you, you said, Kevin. Um apart from inspired leadership and catching giants, which we'll link in the podcast, obviously. But uh which ones have been most uh insightful for you or would you recommend to other people?

SPEAKER_00 56:14

Yeah, there there are a few. I mean, the one I particularly like, I think it's called the best I'm trying to see it, it's just over there. Best darned ship in the navy or something like that. And it's a it's by a guy called Abrasoff. And he talks about turning around a boat. So he he inherited, he went in a skipper on this boat, and it was a you know, it was a dysfunctional crew, and then he got it to be the best darned ship in the navy, in its American Navy, best darned ship in the Navy, and there's so many things in there, and it's you know, you know, you've you've been in the military, so you know that teamwork in the military is absolutely fundamental, and and so it is in business, but it's slightly different environment, but still the the concepts are exactly the same: communication, trust, honesty, integrity. Um so I like that one. Uh I like what they don't teach you at what they didn't teach you at Harvard Business School by Mark McCormack. Okay. Um, I read that first, oh, I don't know, 40 years ago or something. And I bought another copy recently. I thought I hadn't read it for ages. I couldn't find my old copy, so I rebought it. Um and then the other one is uh I was talking to somebody today, I was speaking this morning to a group of undergrads at the University of Surrey. So I had a hundred young people in the room, and we were talking about taking responsibility and them owning their career. Because you know, the danger is, and and and I don't mean this to sound big-headed, I really don't, but the danger is somebody like me rocks up and they say all these titles, and they think, oh, it's all right for him, look. And so I always start by showing a picture of the house where I was born, which is a two up two down in Manchester, right? I say, that's where I came from, guys. Nobody ever gave me a silver spoon, nobody ever gave me anything. So if you think I'm successful, that means you can be successful. And somebody said, Well, what book should I read to do that? And and there's a book called Who Moved My Cheese? Yeah. And yeah, and and you know, it's just it's a hundred-page book, it's a simple book, but it's just about making people think, hang on a minute, yeah, I own this. I own, I there you go. Who moved my cheese? There you go. I am responsible for my piece of cheese. Absolutely. And and so, you know, you know and I know when you're in a tough situation, you need to a rely upon yourself, but b, you need to absolutely rely upon the people around you and don't start thinking people are are doing things against you because they're typically not. So those are three books that I like.

SPEAKER_01 58:48

Appreciate that. And I I know you've uh you've just added to their Amazon sales, and my listeners are really good. So uh getting that I often get uh comments that I cost people a fortune, but but the book recommendations, but I'm a big advocate of that as well, but most importantly, taking action against what they read versus just osmosis just trying to uh learn all the time new things. So, last question then, um Kevin. Um, one of the things that we see with a lot of our senior executives, um certain leaders is because they care, they passionately care about what it is they do there, they're working incredibly hard. And sometimes that can come at a number of uh consequences, costs, whether it's themselves, their their families, maybe, um, and because their inability to unplug or unwind. So, how do how do you recover with all you know you're running, you know, as a man now with your own successful businesses, you're chairman to five businesses, there's a lot spinning. I've heard your phone buzz a couple of times. How do you unwind? And is this something that you you you're an advocate of?

SPEAKER_00 59:52

Yeah, so I unwind through exercise. I love look, I'm I'm 63 now, so I'm an old man, but I train every day. Uh this morning I rode five miles because I was I didn't have much time, so I can get on the I've got a concept to rower here. I get on that and bash away for you know 55 minutes or whatever it was in the end. Um and exercise for me is a great um it's a great escape. I enjoy it. Um I ride my bike or I drag tires around the woods or I I go and lift weights and do all that stuff. But and I do that because you know in June, June the 12th, 2024, we're gonna try and row across the Pacific. So I've got to turn up, I've got to turn up to that with a bunch of 30-year-olds, and I don't want them to think, oh, you know, oh look out, here's the fat old man. So I've got to try and and stay fit. Um, otherwise, the expedition's for me. Um and I'd be lying if I said, oh no, I'm in complete balance, you know, I walk out of here at six in the evening. I don't. It was Sunday yesterday. I walked out of the office at 25 past ten at night because I was trying to finish a speech that I've got to deliver on Wednesday. So I I you know people say to me, how do you keep it in balance? I don't. I don't. And you know, I don't pretend I do, but I will take time to do my exercise, and I will I will sit here and read a book. Uh, I'll go and sit outside. I love being outdoors. If I if if I can possibly get outside, I'll be outside reading a book. I don't sit inside.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:24

So, you know, that's what I do. Uh it's it's what you said before we started filming. I love your honesty there, I really appreciate it. And you you said, you know, this is this is just you, this is what you do. And uh I think that's understanding your your purpose, your values are so intrinsically linked into this journey that you've had over all these decades. And clearly you you've you've got some uh your own personal successes with regards to that, but also you can just tell that it's just uh something you really enjoy, and you wouldn't have it any other way, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:55

No, I I do enjoy it. You know, enjoy the journey. It's what I was saying to the youngsters this morning. Don't set your sights on a goal, and if you don't reach that goal, the world is end. It's not the case because the goal will move. You know, they're 19 years old. And and I said to them, for me, that's 45 years ago, but it seems 45 minutes ago. I remember being in my university classroom listening, and I told them there was a guy from Blackendecker, marketing director of Blackendecker, who came in and spoke about business. And it was my first time listening to because director, wow, that must be important. And and he really had an impact on me to follow up interest in business. Um, and I said to them, 45 minutes from now, guys, you'll be in a room talking to youngsters. So enjoy the journey because it's over very quickly.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:44

Yeah, love that. Love that. It's a great inspirate, full circle, great inspiring story, and uh one I can connect with on a number of levels. So thanks for your time today, uh, Kevin. It's really appreciated. Um we'll send all the links um and we'll uh know from the listeners that have listened, you've given us an absolute goal today. So uh thank you very much.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:04

Thank you for the invitation. It was it was an absolute pleasure to talk to you.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:08

Thank you.