SPEAKER_00: You're listening to the VFC Sermon Podcast.
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SPEAKER_01: It was so much fun.
SPEAKER_01: The ladies came dressed up in all sorts of different ways, different uh prom dresses from different decades.
SPEAKER_01: We uh listened to different music from different decades.
SPEAKER_01: It was tons of fun.
SPEAKER_01: We'll probably have some pictures posted later on this afternoon on our VFC Facebook page, so you can check that out.
SPEAKER_01: Depending on what kind of church you grew up in, you may have been taught that Catholics were just Christians with candles.
SPEAKER_01: Or you may have been told that the Catholic Church was the beast in Revelation.
SPEAKER_01: If you grew up Catholic, you may have been told that Protestants were the people who got mad, left the real church, and started 47,000 different denominations because they can't agree on anything.
SPEAKER_01: To be fair, we have started a lot of denominations.
SPEAKER_01: Today we're going to talk about Catholics and Protestants.
SPEAKER_01: Now, VFC is a Protestant church, but this is not a hit piece on Catholicism.
SPEAKER_01: My goal is to understand what the Catholic Church actually teaches, compare it to Scripture, and then talk honestly about where we agree and disagree.
SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Elephants in the Room 2026, where we tackle tough topics and discuss sensitive subjects.
SPEAKER_01: Remember our four rules.
SPEAKER_01: Also, give me time to formulate my points and say what I intend to say.
SPEAKER_01: You not only have the right, but the responsibility to check up on me and make sure that what I'm saying is correct.
SPEAKER_01: And then lastly, if you disagree or get offended, please reach out to me personally.
SPEAKER_01: I'd love to discuss it.
SPEAKER_01: So those rules are especially important today because I'm probably going to say some things that Protestants don't like, and I'm probably going to say some things that Catholics don't like as well.
SPEAKER_01: Everybody gets offended today because I believe in equality.
SPEAKER_01: Let's define some terms.
SPEAKER_01: First of all, the word Catholic means universal.
SPEAKER_01: Christians use the word Catholic to describe the universal church.
SPEAKER_01: That's all followers of Jesus everywhere.
SPEAKER_01: That's why some ancient creeds, like the Nicene Creed, says, I believe in the one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.
SPEAKER_01: They're not saying I believe in Catholicism.
SPEAKER_01: They're confessing belief that the bride of Christ is made up of all sorts of people in spite of our various differences.
SPEAKER_01: The word Protestant came much later.
SPEAKER_01: It refers to Christians associated with the Protestant Reformation who protested doctrines and practices of the Catholic Church of the time, and they eventually ended up separating from Rome.
SPEAKER_01: Also, just so you know, the Protestant Reformation is not the first time that Christianity had a major church split.
SPEAKER_01: 500 years before the Reformation, they had what's called the Great Schism leading to the establishment of the Eastern Orthodox Church.
SPEAKER_01: We won't be talking about them this morning for the sake of time.
SPEAKER_01: Now, let me take you through a little bit of history, and I know y'all want me to get to Mary and Confession and the Pope.
SPEAKER_01: I will.
SPEAKER_01: We're going to talk about all that stuff.
SPEAKER_01: But I need you to understand first the history of how this came about.
SPEAKER_01: And for those of you that aren't so much into history, I have yet another pretty picture for you to look at while we discuss this.
SPEAKER_01: The earliest Christians began as a persecuted Jewish movement.
SPEAKER_01: And it was centered on the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
SPEAKER_01: Christianity began to spread across the Roman Empire under a lot of persecution, but it was legalized under Constantine in the year 313.
SPEAKER_01: It became the favored religion and eventually the official religion of Rome.
SPEAKER_01: Over time, church structures grew more powerful.
SPEAKER_01: The Bishop of Rome developed into the office that we now call the Pope.
SPEAKER_01: By the late Middle Ages, serious abuses were happening.
SPEAKER_01: One of the most famous involved indulgences.
SPEAKER_01: Now, Catholic theology is far more complicated than simply saying people were buying forgiveness.
SPEAKER_01: But during this time, many were taught that giving money to the church would reduce punishment for their sin or someone in purgatory, which we'll talk about purgatory in a little bit.
SPEAKER_01: At the same time, ordinary people were gaining greater access to Scripture.
SPEAKER_01: Bibles have been expensive handwritten manuscripts, usually in Latin rather than a language that people actually spoke every day.
SPEAKER_01: The printing press and the Bible's translation into other languages suddenly made it possible for the average Christian to compare what the church taught against the scripture for themselves.
SPEAKER_01: And in 1517, a German Catholic monk and theology professor named Martin Luther publicly challenged abuses surrounding indulgences in his 95 thesis.
SPEAKER_01: Luther didn't set out to invent Protestantism.
SPEAKER_01: He was trying to create reforms within the church he was a part of.
SPEAKER_01: But the disagreement grew and expanded the topics to church authority, how people get saved, what should be believed in order, a required belief in order to be a Christian.
SPEAKER_01: The Protestant reformers later summarized several convictions with five famous phrases.
SPEAKER_01: You may have heard some of these.
SPEAKER_01: They're in Latin.
SPEAKER_01: Sola scriptura, that means scripture alone is sufficient as our final authority.
SPEAKER_01: Sola fide, faith alone is sufficient for our justification.
SPEAKER_01: Sola gratia, you can do your hymn like this, glatia, if you say that one.
SPEAKER_01: Grace alone is sufficient as the source of salvation.
SPEAKER_01: Solus Christus, Christ alone, is Savior and mediator, and Soli Deo Gloria, God alone, gets the glory.
SPEAKER_01: So 500 years later, after the Reformation, what are we supposed to think?
SPEAKER_01: Are Catholics our brothers and sisters in Christ?
SPEAKER_01: Is Catholicism a false version of Christianity?
SPEAKER_01: Or are Protestants rebellious troublemakers who left the true church?
SPEAKER_01: Let's start first with what we actually agree on, and you may be surprised on how much Catholics and Protestants agree on.
SPEAKER_01: Some Protestants have been taught that Catholicism is basically another false near-Christian religion like Mormonism or Jehovah's Witnesses.
SPEAKER_01: It's not.
SPEAKER_01: Historic Roman Catholicism affirms the same central doctrines as Protestants.
SPEAKER_01: They believe in one God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
SPEAKER_01: They believe that Jesus is the eternal Son of God, fully God, fully human.
SPEAKER_01: They believe in his virgin birth, his sinless life, his crucifixion, his physical resurrection, and his ascension, and his eventual return.
SPEAKER_01: Catholics believe that humanity is fallen, sinful, and needs God's grace, and that Jesus is the only way to the Father.
SPEAKER_01: They affirm final judgment, both heaven and hell, the inspiration of Scripture, and spiritual gifts from the Holy Spirit.
SPEAKER_01: Now that sounds pretty familiar, doesn't it?
SPEAKER_01: You're gonna find that Catholics and Protestants share the same essential doctrine, the same core doctrine of Christianity.
SPEAKER_01: If we're gonna disagree with Catholics, and we will as we continue, let's disagree with what they actually believe.
SPEAKER_01: Not a Protestant cartoon of Catholicism.
SPEAKER_01: Because you don't have to misrepresent someone's theology in order to disagree with it.
SPEAKER_01: Just tell the truth and then we'll discuss it.
SPEAKER_01: Catholics don't believe Mary is part of the Trinity, they don't think the Pope is the only way to Jesus.
SPEAKER_01: Catholic doctrine doesn't teach that you can earn your way into heaven without God's grace.
SPEAKER_01: Those are not teachings.
SPEAKER_01: Believe me, I've spent a lot of time over the last month reading Catholic doctrine.
SPEAKER_01: It's not in there.
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to explain why I believe several Catholic doctrines create serious biblical problems, but accuracy matters.
SPEAKER_01: Can a Catholic be saved?
SPEAKER_01: Well, can a Baptist be saved?
SPEAKER_01: Can you be saved?
SPEAKER_01: If someone repents, genuinely trusts Jesus for salvation, they can be saved whether the sign outside their church says Catholic Baptist Methodist Pentecostal or a Victory Fellowship Church.
SPEAKER_01: There are Catholics who genuinely love and trust Jesus.
SPEAKER_01: There are brothers and sisters in Christ.
SPEAKER_01: There are also people sitting in Protestant churches this morning who aren't saved.
SPEAKER_01: Can I tell you something?
SPEAKER_01: Your church cannot save you.
SPEAKER_01: John 3.16, you guys know this.
SPEAKER_01: It says, Whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life.
SPEAKER_01: Salvation is found in Jesus.
SPEAKER_01: Being baptized Catholic as a baby doesn't automatically save you.
SPEAKER_01: But neither does walking a Protestant aisle and filling out a salvation card when you're 12.
SPEAKER_01: Knowing the Mass doesn't save you.
SPEAKER_01: But neither does knowing all the words to reckless love.
SPEAKER_01: Jesus saves people, churches don't.
SPEAKER_01: And Protestants should have enough humility to recognize what the Catholic what Catholic Christianity has preserved well.
SPEAKER_01: Reverence for God, historic creeds, care for the poor, missionary work, and Christians who have suffered and died for their faith in Jesus.
SPEAKER_01: You can recognize what's right in someone's theology without accepting everything in their theology.
SPEAKER_01: Now there's no way I can list every difference between Catholics and Protestants this morning.
SPEAKER_01: So I want to start by sharing the bigger picture of why there even is a difference in doctrine.
SPEAKER_01: Several years ago, I realized that most everything I knew about Catholicism is what I had been told, not by Catholics, but by Protestants.
SPEAKER_01: Maybe that's the case for you as well.
SPEAKER_01: So I went on a journey, I started reading.
SPEAKER_01: I joined a bunch of groups online, met with leaders in the Catholic Church, and started asking questions.
SPEAKER_01: Those conversations confirmed that I would not be Catholic.
SPEAKER_01: But for the first time, I actually understood why Catholics believe things that I consider to be either extra-biblical or unbiblical.
SPEAKER_01: And here's the key, I want to give this to you this morning.
SPEAKER_01: This is the key to unlocking Catholic doctrine.
SPEAKER_01: Catholics and Protestants have a different understanding of who or what gets the final say on what they believe.
SPEAKER_01: I got some illustrations for you.
SPEAKER_01: Think of Catholic authority like a three-legged stool.
SPEAKER_01: One leg is scripture, which Catholics believe is inspired and authoritative.
SPEAKER_01: But another is sacred tradition.
SPEAKER_01: These are the practices of the faith handed down through the history of the church.
SPEAKER_01: And then there's a third leg.
SPEAKER_01: That's called magisterium, which is the teaching authority of the Pope and the bishops entrusted with authoritatively interpreting Scripture and tradition.
SPEAKER_01: So you've got two inputs.
SPEAKER_01: One is the Bible, which you're very familiar with, but another one is the tradition of the church.
SPEAKER_01: It is just as authoritative as scripture.
SPEAKER_01: But then, in addition to that, you have magisterium, which is the leadership of the church's ability to interpret both scripture and tradition.
SPEAKER_01: That's the three-legged stool of authority.
SPEAKER_01: Catholics don't view these as competing sources of information.
SPEAKER_01: Scripture and tradition together, according to them, reveal what they call the deposit of faith, and then the magisterium, church leadership, authoritatively interprets it.
SPEAKER_01: Now, of course, we Protestants, we approach authority differently.
SPEAKER_01: We believe in sola scriptura.
SPEAKER_01: Remember, scripture alone is the final authority for Christian doctrine.
SPEAKER_01: That doesn't mean that we reject pastors or church history or creeds or scholars or tradition.
SPEAKER_01: They can all be helpful in understanding the truth.
SPEAKER_01: But none of them have the authority to override scripture or establish doctrine that cannot be clearly found in Scripture.
SPEAKER_01: The example I want to use for that is an anchor.
SPEAKER_01: Think of Scripture as an anchor, and Protestant denominations are boats tethered to the same anchor.
SPEAKER_01: Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Pentecostals.
SPEAKER_01: We don't interpret every passage the same, so our boats drift apart somewhat.
SPEAKER_01: But every boat still remains tethered to the same anchor, the written word of God found in the Bible.
SPEAKER_01: This explains so much about what we're going to discuss this morning.
SPEAKER_01: When Protestants encounter a doctrine like purgatory, our instinct is, well, where is that in the Bible?
unknown: Right?
SPEAKER_01: Immediately, so where's that in the Bible?
SPEAKER_01: But Catholicism allows a doctrine to be grounded in tradition and then authoritatively taught by the church even when clear biblical support is lacking.
SPEAKER_01: Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_01: I'm not saying you have to agree with it, I'm just making sure you understand how it works.
SPEAKER_01: This is the key to understanding doctrinal disagreements between Protestants and Catholics.
SPEAKER_01: Catholics believe the church helped give us the Bible and therefore has the authority to interpret it.
SPEAKER_01: Protestants believe the Bible has authority over the church and therefore it must judge everything the church teaches.
SPEAKER_01: So the question is: who gets the final word?
SPEAKER_01: For us, the answer is scripture.
SPEAKER_01: Now, both approaches have benefits and drawbacks.
SPEAKER_01: I want you to think through this.
SPEAKER_01: The benefit of the Catholic model is doctrinal consistency.
SPEAKER_01: There's much less ambiguity about what the Catholic Church actually teaches.
SPEAKER_01: They even have an 800-page book called The Catechism, and it details what the Catholic Church believes.
SPEAKER_01: If you don't believe Mary remained a perpetual virgin, the church has already settled that question for you.
SPEAKER_01: You are told to believe what they tell you to believe.
SPEAKER_01: So the drawback to their system is that you must trust the church's teaching authority, even if a doctrine doesn't have clear, explicit scriptural support.
SPEAKER_01: Now the Protestant benefit is that every doctrine remains accountable to Scripture, not a person, not a position, not an organization.
SPEAKER_01: Okay?
SPEAKER_01: No pastor, denomination, council, tradition.
SPEAKER_01: They don't get the final word.
SPEAKER_01: The Bible does.
SPEAKER_01: But then what's the drawback to that?
SPEAKER_01: Well, the drawback is that sincere Christians interpret the Bible differently.
SPEAKER_01: And that's one reason we have so many denominations.
SPEAKER_01: For me, I prefer unity over uniformity.
SPEAKER_01: I would rather agree to disagree about non-essential doctrines than require everyone to agree about everything.
SPEAKER_01: So pick your problem.
SPEAKER_01: Catholicism gives you greater doctrinal uniformity, but requires that you adhere to and trust the church's teaching that's based on more than Scripture.
SPEAKER_01: Protestantism keeps every doctrine accountable to Scripture, but gives you Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, Pentecostals, and we don't all agree on everything.
SPEAKER_01: I'll take the mess.
SPEAKER_01: I'd rather deal with the messiness of disagreement than remove disagreement by giving any human institution the final word.
SPEAKER_01: And that's why I am not Catholic.
SPEAKER_01: Now, since we understand the authority question, let's walk through some of the biggest doctrinal differences.
SPEAKER_01: Are you guys ready?
SPEAKER_01: I need you to put your thinking cap on for this one.
SPEAKER_01: Salvation and baptism.
SPEAKER_01: Let's start with the most important question.
SPEAKER_01: How is someone made right with God?
SPEAKER_01: Protestants and Catholics both say salvation begins with God's grace and is possible only because of Jesus.
SPEAKER_01: Catholic teaching does not say that you simply earn your way to heaven by being a good person.
SPEAKER_01: Although some Catholics may receive that message, that's not what the church officially teaches.
SPEAKER_01: Here's the real difference.
SPEAKER_01: Protestants teach salvation by grace alone, through faith alone.
SPEAKER_01: So good works or obedience or acts of love are the result of salvation, not the cause of it.
SPEAKER_01: Ephesians 2, 8 through 10 says, For it's by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it's the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast.
SPEAKER_01: For we are God's handiwork created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
SPEAKER_01: Or simply put, as I like to illustrate it, the salvation equation is grace plus faith equals salvation plus works.
SPEAKER_01: God's grace, he did something you couldn't do.
SPEAKER_01: Your faith, your response to him, that creates salvation.
SPEAKER_01: Grace plus faith.
SPEAKER_01: But then the result of salvation, once the Holy Spirit begins to move in you, is now you start doing good works.
SPEAKER_01: So works are the result that there has been salvation.
SPEAKER_01: Notice works are not on the left-hand side of the equal sign.
SPEAKER_01: It's not an input to get salvation, it's the result of salvation.
SPEAKER_01: Like again, you've probably heard me say, we don't work to get saved, but once we're saved, we get to work.
SPEAKER_01: Okay?
SPEAKER_01: Catholic teaching also says grace comes first, and that no one can earn the initial grace of salvation.
SPEAKER_01: But it understands salvation as an ongoing thing, where faith, baptism, works of love and obedience, and the grace and the sacraments work together to bring about salvation.
SPEAKER_01: So that's different than believing we are declared righteous through faith alone, and then good works follow.
SPEAKER_01: Protestants believe in obedience to, but we see it as the result of salvation, not a requirement for receiving it.
SPEAKER_01: If I were going to illustrate the Catholic view with an equation like this, I'm not using their terminology, this would be their salvation equation.
SPEAKER_01: Grace plus faith equals works plus salvation.
SPEAKER_01: Now notice works is still not on the left hand side of the equals sign.
SPEAKER_01: It's still not an input necessary to bring about salvation.
SPEAKER_01: But the idea is that they do teach a believer must cooperate.
SPEAKER_01: With God's grace and that their faith will work through love and obedience.
SPEAKER_01: Those are works, and is necessary for final salvation.
SPEAKER_01: Are you with me?
SPEAKER_01: The role of water baptism is a perfect example of how this works.
SPEAKER_01: Catholic doctrine teaches that baptism confers grace, the grace of justification, removes original sin, that's the sin that you were born into, and is necessary for salvation.
SPEAKER_01: They say baptism, you have to be baptized to be saved.
SPEAKER_01: Protestants disagree among ourselves, but here at VFC, we don't believe the water can save you.
SPEAKER_01: Baptism is an encounter of grace with God.
SPEAKER_01: It's a sign of our new covenant with Him, and it's an act of obedience to the commandment to publicly confess Jesus as Lord.
SPEAKER_01: Consider the thief on the cross.
SPEAKER_01: He didn't have time to get baptized, join a church, take communion, or complete a membership class.
SPEAKER_01: He trusted Jesus, and Jesus said, Today you'll be with me in paradise.
SPEAKER_01: Now, Catholic theology has categories to explain exceptions like the thief on the cross.
SPEAKER_01: So that's not, if you bring that up, they're not going to be like, wait, what?
SPEAKER_01: They know.
SPEAKER_01: The Protestants don't need an exception.
SPEAKER_01: Salvation is by grace and through faith, period.
SPEAKER_01: The water is important, but only grace and faith are essential.
SPEAKER_01: Let's talk about the Pope.
SPEAKER_01: Catholics believe the Pope, as Bishop of Rome and successor to Peter, has unique pastoral authority over the universal church.
SPEAKER_01: A primary passage they use is Matthew 16, 15 through 18.
SPEAKER_01: Let's read it.
SPEAKER_01: He, Jesus, said to them, the disciples, Who do you say I am?
SPEAKER_01: Simon Peter replied, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.
SPEAKER_01: And Jesus answered him, Blessed are you, Simon Barjonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
SPEAKER_01: And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
SPEAKER_01: Now, Peter was clearly an important leader to the early church.
SPEAKER_01: But Protestants do not believe Jesus' words here are establishing a permanent universal office passed from Peter to every future bishop of Rome.
SPEAKER_01: We see the rock that the church is built on as Peter's statement that Jesus is the Christ, not Peter himself.
SPEAKER_01: Do you see the difference?
SPEAKER_01: Scripture, as Protestants, we test everything through Scripture.
SPEAKER_01: Colossians 1.18, Scripture says Christ is the head of the church, which is his body.
SPEAKER_01: Guys, the church has a head.
SPEAKER_01: The position's already filled, it's Jesus.
SPEAKER_01: That's why we don't receive the Pope's authority.
SPEAKER_01: Catholics also teach papal authority or the Pope's infallibility.
SPEAKER_01: But this is often misunderstood.
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't mean every opinion a pope has ever had is correct.
SPEAKER_01: Catholic doctrine states that under specific conditions, when the Pope definitively teaches, he is preserved from error.
SPEAKER_01: I reject that.
SPEAKER_01: I don't believe Scripture gives any human office that kind of guaranteed doctrinal protection.
SPEAKER_01: But we should reject the real doctrine, not the myth that Catholics think the Pope never says anything stupid.
SPEAKER_01: Popes have said stupid things.
SPEAKER_01: So if pastors have 13 years of sermon recordings to prove it.
SPEAKER_01: Everyone makes mistakes.
SPEAKER_01: No one is infallible except for Jesus.
SPEAKER_01: Amen.
SPEAKER_01: Let's talk about Mary.
SPEAKER_01: First, Protestants, you guys stop acting like honoring Mary is bad.
SPEAKER_01: Okay?
SPEAKER_01: Mary was incredible.
SPEAKER_01: She's blessed among women, the scripture says we need to honor her faith and her example.
SPEAKER_01: But Catholic doctrine does go far further than that.
SPEAKER_01: It teaches the immaculate conception that Mary was preserved from original sin from the first moment of her conception.
SPEAKER_01: Well, here's the problem.
SPEAKER_01: Scripture says that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
SPEAKER_01: I don't believe that she was born sinless.
SPEAKER_01: That only belongs to Jesus.
SPEAKER_01: It also teaches the assumption that she didn't die, her body just got caught up to heaven.
SPEAKER_01: Again, that's what happened with Jesus.
SPEAKER_01: But it's not what Scripture says happened with Mary.
SPEAKER_01: Neither of these doctrines are taught in Scripture.
SPEAKER_01: Catholics defend them mainly through sacred tradition, not Scripture.
SPEAKER_01: Catholic teaching also says that Mary remained a perpetual virgin and had no other children.
SPEAKER_01: Matthew 1.25, but he, Joseph, did not have sexual relations with her, Mary, until her son was born.
SPEAKER_01: Until her son was born.
SPEAKER_01: Now believe me, I don't want to be up here talking about Joseph and Mary's sex life in church.
SPEAKER_01: But I didn't bring this up, it's the Catholics' fault.
SPEAKER_01: They're the ones who keep talking about this, okay?
SPEAKER_01: Matthew 13, 55 through 56.
SPEAKER_01: Then they, the townspeople where Jesus was born, scoffed.
SPEAKER_01: He's just the carpenter's son.
SPEAKER_01: And we know Mary, his mother, and his brothers, James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas.
SPEAKER_01: All his sisters live right here among us.
SPEAKER_01: Where did he learn all these things?
SPEAKER_01: No one thought that Mary never had any more kids.
SPEAKER_01: It's just that they're literally named in Scripture.
SPEAKER_01: Now, again, Catholics have explanations for the existence of Jesus' brothers and sisters, and a good Catholic is going to be able to defend that belief.
SPEAKER_01: But Protestants have a simpler explanation.
SPEAKER_01: It's that Jesus had brothers and sisters.
SPEAKER_01: That's our explanation, because it's what Scripture says.
SPEAKER_01: The most natural reading of the New Testament is that after Jesus was born, Mary and Joseph had a normal marriage and had more children.
SPEAKER_01: Catholic devotion also invokes Mary's intercession and gives some rather odd titles for her, not found in Scripture.
SPEAKER_01: Queen of heaven, queen of the universe, mother of the church, and Ark of the New Covenant, which that's pretty clever because the Ark of the Covenant in the Old Covenant and the Old Testament was where the Holy Spirit lived.
SPEAKER_01: Well, if Jesus was born inside of her, she's the Ark of the New Covenant.
SPEAKER_01: That's clever.
SPEAKER_01: That's wrong, but it's clever.
SPEAKER_01: I appreciate the thought.
SPEAKER_01: Guys, Jesus already taught us how to pray, but at the same time, Mary's often invoked in Catholic prayers, including the famous Hail Mary.
SPEAKER_01: When Jesus taught us how to pray, neither he nor the apostles instruct us to address his mother.
SPEAKER_01: Interestingly, someone in Scripture does bring up Mary to Jesus at one point while he's teaching.
SPEAKER_01: Look at this.
SPEAKER_01: Luke chapter 11, 27 through 28.
SPEAKER_01: As he, Jesus, was speaking, a woman in the crowd called out, God bless your mother, the womb from which you came, and the breast that nursed you.
SPEAKER_01: Verse 28.
SPEAKER_01: Jesus replied, But even more blessed, more blessed than who?
SPEAKER_01: Are those who hear the word of God and put it into practice?
SPEAKER_01: I still think Jesus is telling us the same thing.
SPEAKER_01: Instead of focusing on his mom, who was a wonderful lady.
SPEAKER_01: Let's focus on hearing God's word and putting it into practice.
SPEAKER_01: Besides, Mary herself told us to do this.
SPEAKER_01: At the wedding feast in Cana, Mary turned to the servants and said, Do whatever he tells you.
SPEAKER_01: That's excellent advice from Mary.
SPEAKER_01: And it's right there in the Bible.
SPEAKER_01: Do what Jesus tells you.
SPEAKER_01: Amen?
SPEAKER_01: Let's talk about the saints.
SPEAKER_01: Are we good?
SPEAKER_01: Y'all good?
SPEAKER_01: Okay, I'm just making sure.
SPEAKER_01: Catholic theology teaches communion between believers on earth and believers in heaven.
SPEAKER_01: And Catholics may ask saints in heaven to intercede for them.
SPEAKER_01: You've probably heard about this, right?
SPEAKER_01: Hebrews 12 does describe a great cloud of witnesses.
SPEAKER_01: Some have gone before us, but scripture never instructs us, the Christians on earth, to address deceased or departed believers or ask them for prayer.
SPEAKER_01: Protestants believe in the communion of the saints too, but by saints we believe that everyone who is in Christ, all believers are saints.
SPEAKER_01: Paul routinely calls ordinary Christians saints in his letters.
SPEAKER_01: The Catholic Church also believes this: that every believer is a saint.
SPEAKER_01: But they formally canonize particular Christians as saints in heaven.
SPEAKER_01: Guys, I just don't believe we need Saint Anthony to help find our phone if it's lost.
SPEAKER_01: We have the Holy Spirit.
SPEAKER_01: Ask the Holy Spirit.
SPEAKER_01: And also my watch can help me find my phone.
SPEAKER_01: So there's that.
SPEAKER_01: I'm not trying to make light, but I am, I do want you to see, some of these things replace the Holy Spirit.
SPEAKER_01: Replace the Word of God, replace even Christ Himself, and that's very concerning for me.
SPEAKER_01: Now, Catholics will correctly say we don't worship saints.
SPEAKER_01: We venerate them and we ask them to pray for us just like you would ask another Christian to pray for you.
SPEAKER_01: I understand and appreciate that distinction.
SPEAKER_01: And Christians who have died are still alive in Christ.
SPEAKER_01: But my problem isn't believing that they're alive.
SPEAKER_01: The question is whether Scripture teaches that Christians on earth address deceased saints in prayer.
SPEAKER_01: And I don't see it.
SPEAKER_01: It's not there.
SPEAKER_01: Again, Jesus taught us how to pray.
SPEAKER_01: We pray directly to God in Jesus' name.
SPEAKER_01: Look at this, John 16, 23.
SPEAKER_01: Jesus says, I tell you the truth.
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so it's true.
SPEAKER_01: You will ask the Father directly, and he will grant you your request because you use my name.
SPEAKER_01: Look, you have deceased family members who are saints, they're still alive in Christ.
SPEAKER_01: That's the beauty of our faith.
SPEAKER_01: But to create a system of prayer where this saint is over this, and this one's over this, and I must do this.
SPEAKER_01: Ask the Father in Jesus' name.
SPEAKER_01: That's what we're told to do.
SPEAKER_01: Even though official Catholic theology carefully distinguishes between veneration and worship of saints, I'll be honest, sometimes that line gets blurred in practice.
SPEAKER_01: The official doctrine says the right thing, but the practice gets weird sometimes.
SPEAKER_01: Whenever someone's regular spiritual practices, now listen to this.
SPEAKER_01: Whenever someone's regular spiritual practices become more focused on Mary, a saint, a pastor, or anyone besides Jesus, something has gotten out of order.
SPEAKER_01: That's a major red flag.
SPEAKER_01: Purgatory.
SPEAKER_01: Catholic doctrine teaches that purgatory is a final purification for people who die in God's grace before entering the fullness of heaven.
SPEAKER_01: It's not a second chance for unbelievers to get saved after death.
SPEAKER_01: Don't say that.
SPEAKER_01: It's not what it is.
SPEAKER_01: They appeal to several Bible passages, but none actually teach purgatory.
SPEAKER_01: Because of the lack of biblical evidence, the pat and passages to the contrary, Protestants reject purgatory.
SPEAKER_01: It's an answer to a very real question.
SPEAKER_01: If we who are sinful are still being perfected, how at the end of our life can God let an imperfect person into perfect heaven?
SPEAKER_01: Great question.
SPEAKER_01: And so they've come up with the idea, well, there's a purification.
SPEAKER_01: It could be for two seconds, it could be for two years, we don't know, but there is a process by which God purifies you.
SPEAKER_01: The problem with that, yet again, is Scripture tells us the answer.
SPEAKER_01: Philippians 1, 6.
SPEAKER_01: I am certain that God, who began his good work within you, will continue his work for how long?
SPEAKER_01: Until it's finally finished.
SPEAKER_01: When?
SPEAKER_01: On the day when Christ returns.
SPEAKER_01: God's got you.
SPEAKER_01: I know you're a mess.
SPEAKER_01: I'm a mess too.
SPEAKER_01: We're all a mess.
SPEAKER_01: But God is working his will in you.
SPEAKER_01: He is redeeming you, he is remaking you.
SPEAKER_01: And when it's time for you to step into his presence, you'll be able to go there.
SPEAKER_01: Because of your faith in Christ, he will complete it.
SPEAKER_01: Christ has already made you acceptable to God.
SPEAKER_01: He is, and God has promised to complete the work he began in us.
SPEAKER_01: We don't need purgatory to finish what Jesus started.
SPEAKER_01: Last one.
SPEAKER_01: Confession to a priest.
SPEAKER_01: Catholicism teaches sacramental confession, where Christians confess serious sins to a priest who pronounces absolution or forgiveness in Christ's name and has them do penance, prayers, or actions intended to address the effects of their sin.
SPEAKER_01: Catholics point to passages like John 20, where Jesus does give his followers authority concerning forgiveness.
SPEAKER_01: Or James 5, which tells believers to confess their sins one to another.
SPEAKER_01: Now, confession of sin absolutely matters.
SPEAKER_01: And if I'm being honest, we Protestants don't do a great job of this.
SPEAKER_01: We just like to say, yeah, the Lord's dealing with me about being too nice.
SPEAKER_01: And we were not always honest with one another.
SPEAKER_01: And we don't get fully free from our sin.
SPEAKER_01: But James says, confess your sins one to another, not to a priest.
SPEAKER_01: You'll notice the priest doesn't confess to you.
SPEAKER_01: But that's what one to another means.
unknown: Right?
SPEAKER_01: It's only a one-sided confession.
SPEAKER_01: There are times when bringing sin into the light with a mature believer or a church leader brings healing and accountability, but a priest is not required for someone to gain access to God's forgiveness.
SPEAKER_01: Why do we believe this?
SPEAKER_01: Scripture.
SPEAKER_01: If we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us of our sins and cleanse us from all wickedness.
SPEAKER_01: Hey, confess sin to church leadership when you need accountability.
SPEAKER_01: But don't confuse pastoral help with priestly mediation.
SPEAKER_01: A pastor can remind you that you're forgiven, but they're not the reason you're forgiven.
SPEAKER_01: Amen?
SPEAKER_01: Ultimately, the common thread between all of these is this question.
SPEAKER_01: Is Jesus enough?
SPEAKER_01: Guys, you don't need Mary or a saint to help Jesus hear your prayers.
SPEAKER_01: You don't need purgatory to finish what Jesus started.
SPEAKER_01: You don't need a priest to give you access to Jesus' forgiveness.
SPEAKER_01: You don't need a Pope to give you an infallible interpretation of God's word.
SPEAKER_01: Baptism matters, but it doesn't save.
SPEAKER_01: Jesus is your Savior.
SPEAKER_01: He is your mediator.
SPEAKER_01: He is your high priest and the one who will complete complete the work that He began in you.
SPEAKER_01: The issue, please hear me.
SPEAKER_01: The issue isn't whether or not Catholics love Jesus.
SPEAKER_01: Many absolutely do.
SPEAKER_01: Some of the kindest, most Christ-like people I've known are Catholic.
SPEAKER_01: The question is, have you genuinely trusted Jesus with your life?
SPEAKER_01: I'll gladly call a Catholic who's genuinely trusted Jesus, my brother or sister in Christ.
SPEAKER_01: We can disagree about Mary and saints and purgatory and baptism and communion and all that stuff and still love one another.
SPEAKER_01: Again, Christian unity does not require doctrinal uniformity.
SPEAKER_01: But unity also doesn't require us to pretend like there are no differences.
SPEAKER_01: We can honor people while testing doctrine.
SPEAKER_01: We can appreciate the history that's come through the Catholic Church while submitting every doctrine to Scripture.
SPEAKER_01: We can embrace brothers and sisters across traditions while remaining firmly anchored to the Word of God.
SPEAKER_01: Guys, I hope you know the goal of today wasn't to leave here thinking less of Catholicism.
SPEAKER_01: It's to leave here thinking more of Jesus.
SPEAKER_01: He is our Savior.
SPEAKER_01: So let's hold tightly to Him.
SPEAKER_01: Let's hold tightly to Scripture.
SPEAKER_01: And let's hold graciously to one another.
SPEAKER_01: My final question to you are you trusting in Jesus alone and letting Scripture have the final word?
SPEAKER_01: Let's stand for prayer.
SPEAKER_01: You feel smarter?
SPEAKER_01: Just feel like, give me some trivia.
SPEAKER_01: Next week we're talking about divorce and remarriage.
SPEAKER_01: Love you guys.
SPEAKER_01: Pray for me.
SPEAKER_01: It's gonna be great.
SPEAKER_01: You won't only be informed, but you're gonna experience God's heart for you.
SPEAKER_01: Take a moment, close your eyes.
SPEAKER_01: I know we all come from different backgrounds, different church histories.
SPEAKER_01: Many of you came from Catholic church or went to Catholic school.
SPEAKER_01: You have loved ones, parents, maybe even a spouse that's Catholic.
SPEAKER_01: I hope you know today it wasn't about railing against Catholics, but it was about understanding why we believe what we believe, explaining why there's a difference, and asking ourselves, are we on the right path doctrinally?
SPEAKER_01: As you close your eyes, ask the Holy Spirit this question: Am I trusting in Jesus alone?
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm glad you came here for teaching at VFC, but you better not be trusting VFC for your salvation.
SPEAKER_01: Are you trusting in Christ or your ability to understand?
SPEAKER_01: Are you trusting in Christ or your good works of love and obedience?
SPEAKER_01: Another question think this thought to the Lord.
SPEAKER_01: Am I letting Scripture have the final word?
SPEAKER_01: The moment you divorce your doctrine from Scripture, you open yourself up to believing all sorts of stuff.
SPEAKER_01: If you would pray this after me, say, Father, thank you for your salvation.
SPEAKER_01: That's by grace through faith, you save me, and then you put me to work because you want to use me to bless the world around me.
SPEAKER_01: So I declare that I trust Jesus alone.
SPEAKER_01: I declare I'll let Scripture tell me what to believe.
SPEAKER_01: And I submit myself to your ways, to your wisdom, and to your work.
SPEAKER_01: Have your way in me.
SPEAKER_01: I belong to you.
SPEAKER_01: In Jesus' name.
SPEAKER_01: Amen.
SPEAKER_00: Thanks for listening to the VFC Podcast.
SPEAKER_00: If you live in the Thomasville area, we would love for you to connect with us in person.
SPEAKER_00: For more information about our weekly gatherings, including service times and directions, you can visit us at VFC Thomasville.org.