Jessica Hardman

Jessica has worked in real estate investment for over 20 years – starting out her career at BNP Paribas, before joining Deutsche Bank’s real estate funds business in 2004. She enjoyed a successful, varied career with Deutsche Bank and DWS; first leading transaction teams culminating in €12bn of transactions, and subsequently running European fund management for international investors.

Jessica was a pioneer and trusted portfolio manager for the wave of inward capital flows from Asian institutional clients from 2011. She built a multi-billion assets under management (AuM) business for Deutsche Bank, utilising her skills in business building, leadership and investment solutions. In 2023, she became the CEO of DWS UK, overseeing 500 staff and over €200bn AuM across Global Alternatives and Passive public market strategies.

As CEO and Co-Founder of Aboria Capital, her ambition is to create an innovative, leading vertically integrated partner for investors in the European Living sector market. In July 2024, Jessica became the President of the British Property Federation (BPF) and joined the board of INREV.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:06

What I bring is that investment rigour, that governance, that compliance, which for the investment management industry is intense now. You know, we have to be extremely focused on how we advise investors and get returns and be transparent and follow the rules and the regulation. But also, I wanted to be able to go with small enough and fairly well capitalized to make decisions quickly, to go into the heart of the market and to extract value from it. So it's trying to really bridge the entrepreneurialness with the rigour. And out of that, I think is a good model for returns and expansion and serving the investors on a personal level.

SPEAKER_01 0:51

Hi, I'm Susan Freeman. Welcome back to our Property Sheet Podcast series brought to you by Mish Kondoraya in association with the London Real Estate Forum, where I get to interview some of the key influencers in the world of real estate and the built environment. Today I'm delighted to welcome Jessica Hardman. Jessica is the CEO and co-founder of Arboria Capital. She's worked in real estate investment for over 20 years, starting her career at BMP Parabar before joining Deutsche Bank's real estate funds business in 2004. Jessica enjoyed a successful, varied career with Deutsche Bank and DWS, first leading transaction teams and subsequently running European fund management for international investors. She was a pioneer and trusted portfolio manager for the wave of inward capital flows from Asian institutional clients from 2011. She built a multi-billion assets under management business for Deutsche Bank, utilising her skills in business building, leadership and investment solutions. In 2023, she became the CEO of DWS UK, overseeing 500 staff and over €200 billion of assets under management. As CEO and co-founder of Arboria Capital, Jessica's ambition is to create an innovative, leading, vertically integrated partner for investors in the European living sector. In July 2024, Jessica became the president of the British Property Federation and joined the board of INREV. So now I'm very much looking forward to talking to Jessica about her successful fund management career, what drove her to break away to set up Aborea Capital and her vision for the company. Jessica, good afternoon. Thank you for joining us. I was just reflecting that you have had an incredibly busy few years. And I'm sure you're going to tell us how you managed to cope with starting a new business in 2024 whilst also taking on the presidency of the British Property Federation.

SPEAKER_00 3:01

Yes, hi Susan. Thanks very much for letting me join the podcast here. Yeah, you're right to identify it as being a bit of a roller coaster couple of years. Incredible few years, both me being part of an amazing industry body, growing into an even better industry body very shortly, but also on my career journey, being able to pivot my know-how of the last 20 odd years into something fresh and new with a new partner. And we can come on to that, you know, has been a really great opportunity for me to broaden my skills every every which way, really. So yeah, it's been a lot of hard work as well. But uh and that doesn't stop. But for sure it's uh it's a it's an amazing um pathway to be on.

SPEAKER_01 3:50

Um well I have huge admiration, and we will we will talk about um the detail. I think taking any one of those uh on at one time would have been enough. So before we get into that, let's start a little bit as we do with how you came into real estate, where you grew up, and um, you know what prompted you to go into the real estate sector?

SPEAKER_00 4:11

Yeah, that's a good question. So so I did train as a chartered surveyor originally, so I think that's quite old school now to go into investment management from that route. There's many great still qualifying chartered surveyors in our real estate industry. And that was really led from the fact that my dad worked uh in a development business in Mid Wales, which is where I grew up. So I grew up right on the Welsh uh in English border. My parents now live in Hail Y, which some people know if you read a lot of books, is uh where a great literature festival is held every year. But then it was actually a very grey Welsh uh small town. And uh so, yep. So I um in the first six years of my life um lived in a family bungalow on an estate where my father was leading the development charge of broadening, you know, multiple hundreds of houses, and then thereafter moved into a more rural environment. Both of my family's background is in farming, um, and so um moved back to sort of that direction. But look, I therefore grew up, you know, walking around um building sites with you know little wellies, a small hard hat, and really just seeing how housing is built from scratch. And I think as I grew up, you know, I'm one of four daughters, the youngest. My dad certainly recognised that my passion for geography, the built environment, you know, quite academically interested in those topics. I think it was an estate agent or a chartered surveyor, and he thought that a chartered surveyor sounded a bit better. So he sort of recommended going into that industry. I think not really thinking about investment surveying, but much more structural building surveying, I think was what he had in mind. Um but of course, you know, that's the great thing about real estate, it's a very broad opportunity. And then, you know, just to mention that there, my mother, because it's really important, there's a you know, two people there that supported me. She was a trained nurse, but then with four kids, worked extremely hard and was very ambitious for us, and um certainly I think instilled hard work, dedication, and drive that I think has carried me through most of my career. So these these two people were uh fantastic advocates for for what I am today.

SPEAKER_01 6:40

It's fantastic. And as a matter of you mentioned three sisters, did they go into real estate or did they go in a different direction?

SPEAKER_00 6:48

Uh yeah, no, they didn't. They're they're much more creative. And uh yeah, no, they're all in very different industries, not in any, none of them are really in a in a business industry. So yeah, we're we're all quite different, all very similar, of course, in personality, but we found our outlets in different places, yeah. So, where did you go to study? Again, funny story. So I went to a sixth form college in Hereford, and when I approached that sixth form um uh careers office to sort of say I want to do something called surveying, they had no idea what what I just said. They were like, What is what is that? And I'm like, well, I'm not really sure either, but uh my dad says it's quite good, and so maybe let's investigate it. So I applied to two universities, which was the only two they recommended did it, um, which was Oxford Brooks and Bristol West of England University, or whatever it's called these days. Didn't know about Reading, didn't know about anything in London, didn't even apply, didn't know about them. So I went to Oxford Brooks and did the um British State Management bachelors there, and then obviously great university, well-recognised course, and a brilliant lead-in to graduate recruitment afterwards.

SPEAKER_01 7:57

And do you still still see keep in touch with contemporaries who were were studying with you?

SPEAKER_00 8:02

Yeah, no, totally. I mean, probably a smaller crew than the 60 odd people that started the course. You know, very few females were on that course. I think it was 60, I think it was three, four females on it. So it was quite unique. But actually, I lived in a house of girls all studying different things. So I got one now, you know, business in German and living in France, one's a high qualified nurse, one's in the planning sector. You know, it's a great, it's a great experience going to university, as I'm now a big advocate for. Um, and yes, I but I still see and there's still people in the industry I keep in touch with uh on that course. Good gang of people all doing well.

SPEAKER_01 8:38

Hearing what you said about you know the careers department at school, I mean I do hope that if one went into whatever a careers department is now called at school, that there would be something on real estate and construction. But I don't I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 8:52

I think, well, lot there's some very good people, if you've been listening probably to this, when it goes out to say, is I've been part of that outreach, going to schools, going to um university campuses to absolute advocate for the sector. And I hope, you know, the BPF and real estate UK when come on to that are also going to be a really strong voice to attract people in because we we need the talent coming into this sector, not choosing, you know, others. We certainly do.

SPEAKER_01 9:20

And so when you left uh Oxford Brooks, what was your first role? Which direction did you go in?

SPEAKER_00 9:26

Yes, so I joined a graduate scheme at Weatherall Green and Smith. So only a few people will probably know that company. It was then bought out by BMP Parabah. So when I left, it had almost turned into BMP Parabua fully. And I was always very interested in the investment side. So I did the usual uh different departments, you know, learnt the skills, the rent reviews, the six months in valuation. But I then landed working in the asset management team and working on the British Gas Fund, which at that point was a substantial fund owning a lot of UK real estate. And I really did enjoy the fund management, investment side of, you know, basically every asset was a project and that needed multiple services to make it perform. And you were the, you know, the connection, uh, the anchor on bringing all those services together to be able to, you know, um refurbish the building, you know, rent it, increase the rent, uh, improve its liquidity, whatever it might be. And I really enjoyed the project of that. And I felt that was something I wanted to go into. And so when I did qualify, um, I actually went straight into Central London investment team, so in the transactional space, uh, and spent a year doing that before I moved on to the next role. But, you know, just really liked, I, you know, always had a passion to be in the investment space, that's for sure. That was pretty early identified. And how did the Deutsche Bank role come about? So I had been in Central London investment, like I said, for about a year post-qualification. And I was then looking to jump onto the client side or the dark side or whatever they might have referred to it then. And the role came up, Deutsche Property Asset Management, which was a longtime former name of what you see today in DWS. And um, at that point, um, you know, two great people of the of the sector. So Bill Hughes was running that uh that department then now, obviously, um recently leading LNG, and born nature a shout out to because he was the head of transactions for UK at the time, and they were looking to really grow their Central London office portfolio, and I was a junior in that space, so sort of came on to support them in that and learnt a lot. You know, they they moved on to other roles um, you know, a couple of years later, but but really I started to find my feet in working in the Central London transaction market and also bringing international capital to that market, you know, over the the next 10 years.

SPEAKER_01 11:58

So they must have been um a great team to to work with. You must have you must have learned a lot along the way there.

SPEAKER_00 12:05

Definitely. Yeah, I mean they're great people, and and and it all starts with do you have great tutors? Are they willing to share their knowledge? Are they willing to introduce you to people? Are they willing to make sure you feel relevant in a meeting? Which, as a young female in what was then a pretty masculine environment, because not many women did investment either, so not many women in the industry, and then how many of them actually go into investment? You know, I I think I've definitely grown in confidence from that point because I've been surrounding the people that with that put me first and gave me that opportunity, and you know, um, and I felt very much part of the team, an important part of the team. So that was important, and I actually always work for people. I've been extremely fortunate, you might say. Hopefully people now get that as expected, but then I think I've always worked for people that have always had my best interests um in mind. So that's been a good, really good.

SPEAKER_01 12:57

No, that um that certainly helps, doesn't it? Because it gives you the confidence to just, you know, build your career. And you were a pioneer in the um Asian institutional client market when they started um investing, I think from 2011 onwards. So that must have been sort of pretty exciting. I mean, being a pioneer at any time is exciting. But um how did that come about? How did you build that side of the business?

SPEAKER_00 13:26

Yeah, it was a necessity pioneer, I think. And I only look back now and go, God, I really did do something good there. So Deutsche Asset Management had changed quite a bit over the last 20 years, and the and the big, I say the big significant change of that organisation was truly going global. So, you know, when I'd first joined, it was almost like property companies owned by Deutsche Bank, very single jurisdiction focused. So the UK team did UK, the German fund management business, which was a significant part of Deutsche Bank's real estate offer globally and still is, you know, tended to everything came from the Frankfurt office. They would tour assets globally from the Frankfurt office, they would buy their own assets, they wouldn't use at that point the local experts because they were running their own funds. And so there was a bit of a sea change in sort of 2005, 6, where they changed that and said we're now going to operate under a global model, you're all going to become one organization under the old brand of Reef. Um, and again, that name's had gone from the market, but it was uh inherited from the US entity. And what that meant for a mid-level transactions person like myself, sat only doing it in the UK, is that I would then start to represent that capital to buy assets within the UK. And at that time, the German open-ended funds were actually underway to the UK generally. So they were a very big fund at allocating money. And double to that, they were needed to allocate more to the jurisdiction I was in. And beyond that, they particularly liked London officers, and that again was where my network was. So it so it really became fortuitous that I became you know their the significant buyer for a few years of on behalf of that bunch of funds, and again worked with amazing fund managers and transaction teams resonating there in Frankfurt. But then the GFC came, um, they slowed down their activity on the buy side and became much you know more into the asset management space. And I kind of just had a you know choice in front of me, you know, either I pivot to do more asset management, you know, keep the job going, hope they don't get rid of me, or I try and you know make something and stay within transactions. And so at the same time, we were obviously seeing a big devaluation of all assets in the UK. That particularly was the case for central London offices, but these were, you know, premier investments, investments that people would have fought tooth and nail to go and get just a year or two previous, were now laying dormant with no buyers in sight and yields moving out into the sixes and sevens. And I just thought this can't be, you know, these are assets that um have a value, and this value has now been corrected and should be acquired. And so, with that, again through a bit of my network, and I'm a big one for networking, I connected with an individual in Deutsche Bank in Asia, and with them I said, I've got these amazing priced assets. Can you help me? Can you introduce me to some sovereigns out in the region? You know, are they ready to come to Europe and the UK? And at that time, there was a number of, you know, very large Asian investors who had pretty much bought their home home market for their pension funds and were needing to diversify. And they were choosing that time to do it. I don't know if that was planned or otherwise. And so they were very interested, frankly. They were very interested to know they could buy, you know, the best asset on Gresham Street or, you know, or anywhere in the city or the West End and could really see that the value difference from the average market to that market was um very advantageous to buy it then. And so I built up a business basically doing that, taking investments, underwriting them, getting them ready to bid, and then going to them saying, I can buy that for you. And and then we would run it and we would operate it, and we would carry out the business plan. And so I yeah, I did that, you know, with Chinese investors, Malaysian and Korean investors, and and built uh a substantial book of you know, several million of assets in about three to four years. And that and that really then put me on the map, I guess, for for the Deutsche Bank and the senior management team to sort of say this sort of youngish person with two small two analysts had managed to create some business in the GFC and not not break the business. So that was a you know, that was an amazing experience. And I they gave me uh you know a lot of autonomy to just go try and do it, very entrepreneurial approach uh and a lot of trust. And and then when I needed it, they helped me. And that's really how I built that side of the business for for now DWS. That's pretty impressive.

SPEAKER_01 18:01

And I mean, apart obviously there has to be an element of luck because you have to reach out to the right person at the right time. But what skills does it need to actually build that sort of that sort of business?

SPEAKER_00 18:15

Yes, so I think there's a couple of things that I look back and go, wow, I really sharpened my skill set here, here, and here. So one is conveying the story. Anyone gets excited to invest, whether it's in real estate, whether it's in a share in your stocks and shares, ISA, when you understand the story. You know, why am I doing it? What is my downside? What's my upside? Do I feel like the person that's advising me is equipped to undertake that for me? So I think that was really important. And so being articulate and being able to communicate the investment case well, straightforward, maybe in the English tongue, I don't know. You know, I felt was uh it's something I'd really harnessed. I think the second thing is being prepared to listen to the investor. So the investors could be frustrating at time when they didn't get it, you know, why wouldn't you do it? Why aren't they getting it? And then if you could get them to open it up and explain where they see the barriers for them, and could you, you know, um find ways to go through those barriers, I find you could build up a lot better trust for the next one. So maybe they didn't do the first one with you or the second or the third, but you learned where their pressure points were, and then they could actively see you trying to solve that, forward them with them, you know, support them through that, and that often creates an outcome at some point, and and hopefully they're sooner rather than later. So I think that was really important, and learning from them, you know. So I really learned how they were navigating the decision-making process, and then yeah, hopefully bringing people on the journey with me was probably the third thing. I did require support, you know. Some of these transactions were very complex, that was beyond my capability. So actually not keeping it all for myself, let's say, and saying it's my idea, I must do it, but actually really asking people to help me deliver. And I continue to do that now. So, you know, not being shy and saying, I actually don't know how to do that. Can you help me? Well, this is as far as I know, I don't know the last bit, or I'm just not sure if this is the right direction. I think that gives, you know, a lot of good exchange for those people that are helping you as well. Like they feel the benefit of that, and then then vice versa, you're going to help them one day. So I think both in the connections into Asia as well as the people that were surrounding me to support me, I think that was uh see those three things I think were key things that then I've sort of lived my career through after that.

SPEAKER_01 20:41

It's so interesting actually, because I wouldn't have necessarily thought about the storytelling, uh, you know, actually selling the story, it's so important. So in 2023 you became CEO of uh DWS UK and uh you had a big big team, I think over 500 people, is that right? And 200 billion euros assets under management. So how different was that role from your previous role?

SPEAKER_00 21:09

Yes, quite a bit different, of which I kept my previous role as well. So it was a so I, you know, the the role was basically to lead the UK office and everyone in it, and also to be the number one representative of that part of the organization to the Financial Conduct Authority. So it's it is a governance, compliance, and people role. And I did that alongside um running European portfolio management for international investors. So I continued my day job, um, but also became that representative person. And so, yeah, again, a huge amount of learning. So um the platform there in the UK is everything from ETFs, so equity trading, through to infrastructure, credit, and real estate and other uh strategies, sustainable strategies, everything around the edges as well. It's a it's a very Uh for DWS UK, that's a very developed office. It represents every single product line they have, is based in London some way or another. So you have a very broad range of people, skills, you know, IT, finance, all the way to the investment professionals, the support services. It's it's a lot of mixed capabilities and obviously a lot of diversity in there in every which way. And then, you know, you're going through running, you know, making sure that that entity is run as well governed as possible and interacting, you know, with the regulators so that they can understand that. And then actually connecting with Deutsche Bank itself, um, who is uh you know, obviously a major presence in in London and the UK and is there as a part owner of DWS still. So yeah, I think that my people skills came into real action there because you've got to connect uh on a level with everyone, and they have to have confidence that you're representing that region both internally when you're you know wanting to win growth for that region, um, but also as almost like an ambassador for it for investors that might be in the market, you know, flying in, wanting to meet the representative heads of uh DWS. So it's a fantastic role. It's an extreme honour to be asked to do it. I really enjoyed doing it, but I love real estate. You know, ultimately, for me, the pathway then wasn't to become more of a senior manager in a large organization, which comes with it the administrative side of those roles. The love I have is is exactly what I've been doing: speaking to investors, um, persuading them why I think there is value to be made, and then executing on that. And that was something I I really wanted to start to think about doing for myself.

SPEAKER_01 23:47

Yes. So what I was going to ask you uh is you know, what prompted you, you know, having you know been sort of appointed to this this position at DWS, what prompted you to leave in 2024 and set up your own company? And I think you've just answered, you've just answered the question in part. So yes, let's talk a little bit about it. You know, how what happened? How did it come about? And you know, what made you want to make the leap?

SPEAKER_00 24:16

Yeah, and it wasn't just it wasn't the role that's for sure, you know, in terms of the having the CEO role didn't then push me into I've got to do something else, because I was thinking about it before. Uh and the one thing I was probably waiting for to a certain extent in my thought process is finding the right opportunity to do it, and I'll come on to how how that came about, but also at what point in the cycle. So I played out a few cycles now. If you're going to start a new business, you want to try and time towards the bottom of the cycle and starting the next new cycle. And so in 2022, we come out of COVID. You know, we've obviously um had the unfortunate um Russian invasion of Ukraine and everything that's come economically from that. But for me, that was a lead indicator of right, Jess, you know, get off your bottom. If you want to go and try and create something different, you've got to start putting in, you know, the after hours work to find that thing and find that partner and go do it because your window is now there. You know, it's going to, you know, you're going to have to set this up in the next three or four years to get the trough. And I didn't quite, you know, I don't know where is the trough, but who knows? It seems like there's an extended one now. Um, but you know, that's kind of how I was thinking. And then the other thing is what how would I what would I be focusing on? And for me, I've been fascinated, but not being able to play out my passion, I suppose, for how an investment manager can truly be integrated with in the operational sector. So, not to be a helicopter at investment manager and just outsourcing it, but actually how to learn the operations. And to me, you know, the the best investment strategies, in my experience, do not stop at the deal, they continue through the operations. That's how you get the alpha. And so that really was my mission. Like, how do I create go into the operational sectors much better equipped because I'm had a relationship with an operator to advise investors where to invest, how to invest, etc. And that that to me, I just still think there's a big gap in investment management to do that well. There's definitely peers in all operational sectors that are doing an amazing job, but really it's still not the major part of the sector. And so that's why I wanted to try and address. So that particularly came pronounced in the living sector, where you absolutely do need amazing operational partners to execute the business plans. And that led me, and I particularly like the living sector. I've done a lot of it in DWS, it's obviously got a huge growth opportunity still in the UK and of course in continental Europe. So there's a runway for that sector, and so building a business towards that seemed to be logical. So then I had to find the the who with, and um, you know, and I if you want me to see then I can go on to talk a little bit about the who. Please do, yes. Yes, okay. So so while I was out, you know, having very limited conversations with a few very close friends to sort of say this is what I want to do, but I'm not gonna do it on my own because I need, you know, equity, I actually want some support. I don't want to be on my own doing this. You know, I need a team to help me. And that is when I was uh a very clever person sort of connected me there with Downing, the Downing family, who are Downing students and Downing Living as an operator brand. And this is a family that has an amazing family that have been basically the pioneers of the PBSA sector. So they were there 35 years ago buying what you would we classify as HMOs, but realizing just the dominant um story around students needing purpose-built accommodations. So they built, you know, with the first 20-bed apartment and they put students in, and then they built a bigger one, and they were trying to convince planners and banks to say this is a real sector, you know, this could be something. And being, you know, a real pioneer, I think their first trades um were uh, you know, selling assets that eventually came to Unite and created Unite. So, you know, they're really there. And they had been a developer operator for most of that time, really expanded to about 7,000 beds under management when I connected with them. And they were ready for the next evolution of that model, rather than being the developer trader model to actually be in for the longer term to benefit from more recurring income and not having to always trade assets when they've you know fought hard to build a PBSA in London. It's um, you know, to not just see it go after, you know, after a year of operation. And so that's you know, we had very similar philosophy as to how our collective strengths could be uh a real appealing opportunity for investors to join us. And so we decided to co-found a Boria and the family office support that.

SPEAKER_01 29:00

So whoever introduced you was quite inspired, I think. It was um you know a pretty good idea.

SPEAKER_00 29:08

Absolutely, yes. Thankful to that person. I was wondering where does the name come from? How do you come up with a name? Yes, that's almost the hardest thing of all is debating the name. And um, you know, we we it seems a bit old school now to say you want one on a website, because I think websites are probably not that looked at anymore because everyone's on uh AI to research who we are. But um but effectively what I felt uh in Downing and myself coming together was roots and branches. So they were the roots, you know, we were very much relying on their operational track record, but we were taking their business in a new direction and hence the branches. And so Abor, Latin for tree, you can't get anything like that, all the landscape gardeners have got those sort of names. So we we sort of created a borea. And the other funny thing is an old uh uh senior leader of of mine back in in Deutsche, so James Pettit, um, who I work with for many years, fantastic guy in the industry, investment manager in the industry. One thing he taught me was if you're gonna create a new entity, new uh asset holding entity, start it with an A and even better, make it an A, B, and you're on the top of every register. In the old days, you would check the register of where your entities are placed offshore. And so, you know, Aboria, James, I nailed absolutely nailed it with Aboria. And it does work when I go to conferences, I can see myself right at the top amongst all the really big names and then us. So it kind of works.

SPEAKER_01 30:34

That's so clever, actually. I've not thought about that. So, like every delegate list, like MIPIM delegate, you there you are at the top. Yeah, before people get bored of looking down at all the names. So working with Downing, obviously, you know, they are quite entrepreneurial. You know, they've been running this business for many years, you've got your more institutional fund background. Were there surprises? I mean, did you did it feel, you know, very I suppose it must have felt very different, you know, going into that sort of entrepreneurial type setting?

SPEAKER_00 31:06

Yes. I mean, I think that was the most common question in the early days where people were like, but but but why? You know, you were in this institutional role, it was going so well, you know, why did you do this? And and and so that that took a bit of explaining, I suppose. But but when I was ready to do it, I mean, I think you know you've got to follow a passion at some point in your career. And for me, this this was absolutely it. I needed to pivot. The second thing I think is for sure they have made me more entrepreneurial, and for sure I made them more institutional. What was really important when we brought those approaches together is that we were really open. So, you know, we spent nine months talking before we decided to take the leap. And that's more the, you know, are we going to get on? You know, when it's difficult, how do we express difficulty? How do we express it frustration? You know, it's it was important that they they bringing in a significant person into what had been a family-run business but with their own senior executive team, you know, bringing an outsider from a very different background coming into that is it can be disruptive. And, you know, they needed to make sure that was going to work, and vice versa, I had to trust them that they were going to, you know, support me through the launch of Aboria and beyond. And I think what I bring is that investment rigour, that governance, that compliance, which for the investment management industry is intense now. You know, we have to be extremely focused on how we advise investors and get returns and be transparent and follow the rules and the regulation. And that was important. And Danny have really embraced that. And never have they ever gone, you know, really should we have to do it like that? They've gone if that's what it needs, and we build it like that. It's brilliant. But also, I wanted to be able to go where small enough and fairly well capitalized to make decisions quickly to um go into the heart of the market and to extract value from it. And you have to be quick to do that actually. You cannot have multiple rounds of committees. So it's trying to really bridge the entrepreneurialness with the rigour. And out of that, I think is a good model for returns and expansion and serving the investors on a personal level.

SPEAKER_01 33:18

And you describe a BORIA as a fully integrated model. It might be sort of useful for our listeners if you just explain exactly why why a BORIO is different, how you plan to operate.

SPEAKER_00 33:32

Yes, absolutely. So so when we talk about an integrative model, it's like a one-stop shop for an investor. So they can come to a Boria, they can invest with us on assets, portfolios, funds, but we will also, within side that service, provide the operations of the assets themselves. So these are the, you know, for us, the student accommodation. So Downing have a fully built operator, um, around 150 people sit in that side of that business, you know, all the way from on-site staff through to uh central services, the leasing, the marketing, the international student outreach, the domestic university connections. And so you get all that within the same vertical of Borea, so Borea and Downing coming together. And I think that's really important because the data the operators have about trend analysis, rent analysis, dynamic pricing, operational expenditure controls is absolutely the source of how you make and improve returns. So having that from the embore team on a day-to-day basis and then be able to talk to someone as to why it's trended differently, what's the outcome on that, not wrapped up in a monthly or quarterly report where you're never quite under the skin of it, you're a recipient of the information. I don't want to be a recipient. I want to be able to help shape and use that data very regularly so we can make sure we extract all of the real estate return that the asset can produce. And so that is where I think the benefit of the vertical integrated model has played out. And it's playing out in every sector that has an operational lens. So it's in student, it's in BTR, it's in data centers, it's in, you know, um self-storage. You're seeing a rise of that model because investors are super sophisticated. They absolutely know those who have information and those who do not in the investment space. And they are tending to place money, you know, more money now is going to those vertically integrated investment managers because they see, and it's been proven, the value they bring to the table. And really that's why we created Aboria in this way.

SPEAKER_01 35:51

So you're focusing on PBSA in the UK. Uh, in time, do you think you will expand it into other parts of the of the living sector?

SPEAKER_00 36:02

Yeah, so there's definitely a a number of different growth avenues for Aboria. We take this one step at a time. So I think there's there's no point saying in 10 years' time, I think this company looks like this because no one can do that. And actually the investment uh arena is changing rapidly as well. Who the investors are, what do they want, the economic background, how do we finance us out? You know, it's it's it's it's moving every year, and there's a different challenge to solve or opportunity to grab. And so I I'm quite fluid with this, but you know, we we would like to diversify it. That's a strength of a company to be more diversified, and that's both geography and sector. So, you know, we we are interested in PBSA in Europe, and we're starting to unpick, you know, how we might enter that market, bringing strong operational knowledge as well as you know, local partnership in the jurisdictions we might end up in, but also broadening when the market is right, and I'm not saying that's particularly now, but broadening the living sector arena, again, taking operational knowledge from one subsector and you know, translating that into a rental model in another subsector. And ultimately, you know, like I said, Abore was built to be an investment manager connected with operations. And actually, if you look at the operational sector at large, there is other areas that could be of interest for us down the line. It's the mission and the philosophy that is very important here, and then how we execute it, rather than almost starting from a subsector and working it up. It's the how can we use that model to extract value across multiple operational arenas. That again, it's one step at a time. And I'm, you know, we we want to be profitable rather than large. I think that's really important. Profitable, creating regular returns, trusted by investors, that will win any day over are you bigger? Have you expanded enough that year? You know, I've been in that game a little bit. I think now I'm just does it deliver for investors? Will the return invest with us again? That's absolutely my main focus now.

SPEAKER_01 38:12

That makes a lot of sense. And I mean, what what are you hearing from investors at the moment? Because we seem to be living in, you know, such a strange time. A couple of wars ongoing and uh you never quite know what's going to happen from one day to the next. How how is all that affecting investment into UK real estate?

SPEAKER_00 38:33

There's a lot of noise out there. A lot of noise. And yeah, since since uh the Middle East conflict, which I guess n none of us were subscribing and it's all coming, yeah, it's definitely put a bit of a pause, I think, on inward investment generally, and the UK. So people are underwriting, re-underwriting. Have they got a sufficient return for the risk or predicting where swap rates might land? You know, we were coming into March with optimism around interest rates falling, it was feeling good. I can see investors returning with a bit of energy and allocation. Um, and we're in a particularly favorable sector to receive some of that. And then I think over the last few weeks, now there's a bit more elongation of the Middle East um political discussions. You know, we've seen investors just say, let's just hang on there, let's just see how this is playing out. And if we have to wait a few months, we'll wait a few months, or we would like a little bit more value from that transaction, which are usual responses to an unknown economic situation. Um, so I think you know that's that's fair enough. Um, so so for a business like Caboria, we need to keep close to our investors, keep close to our vendors and business partners, and work through those things together, um, all appreciating we're in a different trading environment and we have to pivot our mindset to keep going. But having spent the last two years pivoting and learning and you know, being as entrepreneurial, I'm sort of now uh a bit better at that than I might have been once, you know, once upon a time. You know, I'm constantly pivoting and coming up with solutions every day to build the company. So, you know, I'm batch ready now, I think, for whatever else the economy's gonna throw us.

SPEAKER_01 40:21

Yeah, that's so that's good. Um, so we talked a little bit at the beginning about uh your role at the British um Property Federation, and you've played um a huge role in setting up Real Estate UK, which is the merger of the BPF, IPF and Association of Real Estate Funds. And I'm not sure whether it I I maybe the end of April was when it was actually maybe it's not quite happened yet, but how do you think it will uh reshape the representation of the UK property industry? Because it all sounds pretty exciting.

SPEAKER_00 40:57

Yes. And it is really exciting, I'm glad you you you you you identified that. So so when I joined the board of the BPF 2019, 2020 time, so it was just before COVID, and you know, always everyone remembers where they were in COVID, weren't they? So that's why I remember joining the phony one in-person meeting. What was really clear to me and I think other people on the board at the time, but uh we brought the conversation forward was industry bodies are really relevant, they do fantastic jobs, but are we cutting through? Yeah, are we cutting through with the politicians, the regulators, uh, the international market, which is becoming much more diverse? People entering the UK market are you know sophisticated investors? Uh, do they need representation in the same way? Are we cutting through all that? Or do we need to be ambitious and look at you know, resetting the industry bodies representing the UK? And of course, the UK is made up of lots of different industry bodies doing different things, but also many of them doing the same things, you know, or having a large part of their agenda being the same. And I think that's where you know we certainly see consolidation is happening with the commercial market. Why wouldn't it happen with the industry bodies as well? And so roll forward today, where you're absolutely right, we're we're about to launch in a few days' time. We found a place where two other industry bodies, so the um Investment Property Forum, IPF, and the Association for Real Estate Funds, RF, were also at really a crossroads. Once once asked, it became apparent, we're also thinking in a really similar way. And that was the three perfect pillars of a new industry body in my mind. You know, we have the advocacy and the general representation from the BPF, and then you have the real estate funds, how the capital is flowing into the market, the index, the performance, and you had the amazing work the RIPF does: research, strategy, insight. You know, these are three pillars that drive our industry. So to bring collective resource and knowledge together for real estate UK was the best possible start you're going to have to reshape the industry voice and also credibility in front of those associated partners, like politicians. They don't want to be lobbied at anymore. They want insight. They want to understand what is hurting or expanding an industry and where they can work together. And I think that's where you need to couple advocacy with insight rather than traditional lobbying. You know, we're a sector and we want this, it doesn't work anymore. So I think engagement has changed and engagement with international investors or international partners to the UK has changed. You know, they're sophisticated. So that's really what Real Estate UK is there to do, led by our new CEO joining uh later in the summer, Vanessa Hale. You know, I'm one of many people that have worked on that project, you know, on your weekend, off the side of your desk. So Simon Carter is the outgoing president, the last one of the BPF. And many people on the boards that a collective board that was put together to run the the integration process. I'm just one of many. And uh it I really hope now the industry absolutely supports and becomes part of if you're not already being um transitioned into real estate UK, come and join. Come and join now. We need you. And I think you're fine, you need us. We will become the voice of the sector. And together we're very powerful. All of us together is very powerful. And that's what I'd really love that people engage successfully with Vanessa and the team.

SPEAKER_01 44:38

I really look forward to uh seeing this, although it's quite strange to see the BPF go. It's sort of been there throughout my career. But you're right, you know, the world the world has changed. So we will watch that with interest.

SPEAKER_00 44:51

I think it's uh in uh in honor of the BPF, let's make sure it keeps going in honour of the BPF's legacy.

SPEAKER_01 44:57

Yeah. Absolutely. Now we touched on the fact that property is still male dominated, and you're one of the few female real estate entrepreneurs. Um I think there aren't that many. And I just w wondered, you know, from your experience on you know the institutional side and now running your own business, what advice do you give to um younger women sort of coming into the industry, really wanting to get to the top?

SPEAKER_00 45:24

Well, you won't pick it up in our in our chat now what what I think helped my career working for good people, you know, learning your skill set from recognized experts, but experts that are very generous with being experts, so generous with their time, the the teaching. Why I'm an advocate for coming into the office, because I have learned by sitting next to someone and hearing how they're on the phone, by you know, seeing how they perform in person, you know, in in in flesh in a in an investment committee, how they're presenting in front of investors. You know, I've learned all of that by being in the room, physically being in the room and seeing it. Um, so I would definitely say try and align yourself, get the job with the person that's going to teach you, and feels like it's a good thing that they are teaching the next generation. I think that's super important. Network. So I have spent a lifetime developing my network. I saw that, I guess, in transactions, it was absolutely key because that's how transactions markets work. But actually, I've continued that in investment management with investors. It's hard to keep on top of them all and say hi all the time, I know. But um, you know, I actually enjoy it. I've always enjoyed it. And I think you should embrace, you know, making friends in the industry. And then try and just read around the topic. I think that's the final thing. So there's a lot going on about AI efficiencies. You know, you can do your research on AI. I'm I'm a big advocate for data. You know, I've got a small business here, I've got to use AI. I've got to be efficient, I've got to not employ 20 people, I'm gonna employ, you know, five. So I'm totally embracing that. But it's not always the answer. You have to be smart in the room to know how you're gonna apply the information it gives to you to come out with your own response to whether you're gonna buy that transaction, whether you're gonna fund that, whether you're gonna do that rent review, whether you're gonna do that new investment structure. So I think reading around the topic and trying to get your own opinion, don't let that brain go soft. You know, get that own opinion, be willing to be challenged on it, to be willing to debate it. These are skills, these interpersonal skills that are so valuable the older you get. You'll become the leaders with these skills. And I think these are things you want to craft and practice at a at a young age and and therefore be in a in an employment where you have the chance to do that. And if you're not, find somewhere else to do it, because these are going to be so valuable in the future AI world world that you you're bringing the human capital and you really practice that. So that would be my advice on the educational side.

SPEAKER_01 47:59

That sounds like pretty good advice. And you're absolutely right. You don't get there by working from home, do you? You very difficult to sort of pick up all these nuances when you're not actually in the room with people.

SPEAKER_00 48:12

That's right. Yeah. I know balance, you know, I get that. I've got young children, or not so young now, but you know, there's a balance to that for women and and but you can you you know, there's ways to get that balance, I think, as well.

SPEAKER_01 48:22

And just a final question, Jessica. I was I was gonna ask you how you spend your downtime, if you have any downtime, because uh you sound fairly busy.

SPEAKER_00 48:32

Yes. Uh so I actually have two lovely children, uh, Ralph and Georgina, 11 and 9. They are my downtime. Um, in fact, uh, with well, 11 going on 12 in a couple of weeks' time, he's a teenager. He probably doesn't really want me in his space anymore, but I'm there representing the mum. Um, but um I spend my time with them and keeping fit and eating well, seeing my friends, going on holiday, pretty normal. Reading books, I read a lot. These are things that are family, you know, these are things that are important. Nothing, nothing Rasmataz about just being balanced when you're uh out of work. I do think a lot about aborea. I do message Bay, uh my partner, Bay Dining, a lot as we share ideas. It's exciting, you know, to do that. It's great that my kids are on that journey with me, actually. So they come into the office, they know a Borea better because it's smaller, it's more accessible to them. Um, so they they understand when decisions are made or why I'm traveling a bit more than probably my previous role, where it was more chaotic and harder to explain. And I think that's really important for this part of my career now that I'm on the journey with those closest to me on it with me. They always say that I I have uh three children in my life, uh Ralph, Georgina, and the Aboria baby, but they are more important, uh, of course. Um so yeah, but we, you know, we can make light of it and they can feel a bit more uh understanding of what mom does. I think that's really uh a balance for me, that's a balanced way of um trying to keep um both worlds going at the same time.

SPEAKER_01 50:04

Yeah, I think it's brilliant to actually bring them into it so they they can see you know how how it works and what you're doing. So, Jessica, I think great time you know to stop. That's been fantastic, and thank you so much for taking the time to record.

SPEAKER_00 50:19

Oh, I've loved every minute of it. Thanks, Susan.

SPEAKER_01 50:24

Thank you so much, Jessica. So interesting to hear your thoughts on the real estate sector and your career to date, and what drove the move from a high-flying fund management career to set up your own real estate company. All the best with Aboria. So that's it for now. I hope you enjoyed today's conversation. Please join us for the next Property She podcast interview coming soon. The Property She podcast is brought to you by Mishcon Devarea in association with the London Real Estate Forum and can be found at Mishcon.com slash PropertyShe along with all our interviews and programme notes. The podcasts are also available to subscribe to on your Apple Podcast app and on Spotify and whichever podcast platform you use. Do continue to subscribe, let us have your feedback and comments, and most importantly, suggestions for future guests. And of course, you can continue to follow me on LinkedIn and on Twitter at Property She for a very regular commentary on all things real estate, prop tech, and the built environment. See you again soon.