We talk a lot about accessibility and inclusion in higher ed, but often the focus is on traditional students and in-person learning. What actions are we taking to make online learning spaces a place where adult students feel safe to share and learn? Recent graduate of the Communication Management program, Joshua David Murphy Esqueda, who identifies as LBGTQIAS2+, discusses how their experience in the program highlighted ways online courses can allow for better representation and inclusion. Joshua and I also discuss modifications that can be made to online course delivery and the impacts of those modifications would have on all students - not just those from underrepresented identities.
We talk a lot about accessibility and inclusion in higher ed, but often the focus is on traditional students and in-person learning. What actions are we taking to make online learning spaces a place where adult students feel safe to share and learn? Recent graduate of the Communication Management program, Joshua David Murphy Esqueda, who identifies as LBGTQIAS2+, discusses how their experience in the program highlighted ways online courses can allow for better representation and inclusion. Joshua and I also discuss modifications that can be made to online course delivery and the impacts of those modifications would have on all students - not just those from underrepresented identities.
Joshua: 0:09
It just amazes me how higher ed hasn't changed to be more accessible. But they still crave students. They still crave numbers. They still crave that population, but really. Have become removed from accessibility itself. If accessibility is at the forefront of everything, you have the opportunity to engage the largest audience possible.
Cindy: 0:41
Welcome to ElevateEd a space for conversations around the intersection of industry and higher education from the mile high city of Denver, Colorado. This podcast is brought to you by the University of Denver's college of continuing and professional studies University College, where we are elevating experiences for the adult learner through career focused credentials.
Joshua: 1:20
We think about acceptance rates and we think about. You know what it takes to get into a classroom. And it's really like our whole lives have led up to that moment where we walk through the classroom doors and that's such a monumental event in itself, but really we need that mindset every time, you know, we press join a meeting that begins our classes or walk through the doors in order to really just. Honor our experiences as students, teachers, and faculty. I love that. It's, it's so true. It's such an important topic and it's so I was gonna say it's, it's easy to not think about it. But it, yeah, but, but easy isn't the right word, right? It's like
Cindy: 2:06
Until you feel. Uncomfortable in a space. It's easy to forget, I guess, forgets the word that I'm looking for. It's easy to forget what it feels like to be uncomfortable in a space until you realize that you can't be your full self or that you being judged or you don't feel safe bringing your full self into a space. And then, then it overtakes. right then it becomes very hard to forget.
Joshua: 2:36
and you're absolutely right. You don't know what it's like to feel safe until you're unsafe and with classroom, especially at gradual level which I just completed. It's just. Completely different power dynamics change. Right. But those power dynamics exist in every level of academia, whether it's like student, teacher, teacher, to student and student to faculty and,
Cindy: 3:01
and student student. Right?
Joshua: 3:03
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Cindy: 3:05
I mean, without a doubt, I experience it as a, as an instructor. I can, so. See the power dynamic between students based on who's more extroverted and who's more introverted. Who's more comfortable speaking up right away and answering a question or who talks more, more confidently or with greater authority on a particular topic or who has more professional. Than others in the room, or, I mean, there's a, there's a whole host of things that will put people in a dominant and subordinate position and it happens so fast, you know?
Joshua: 3:41
Yeah. Yeah. And then that aspect and what I'm here today is to talk about how each one of those voices is valued in the community that it re resonates in. And That's something that I'm very passionate about and something that we can create as a community of learners.
Cindy: 4:00
Yeah, I, I love that. Well, I'm thrilled to have you here today and and to be talking. And I think that our listeners are just going to not only benefit from this conversation, but thrive from this conversation. I'm so excited to be talking today with Joshua David Murphy Escada. Joshua Is a multidisciplinary artist and poet who focuses on intersectional representation, storytelling and native American and indigenous faith. Meditation and spirituality. Joshua who uses the pronouns. They, he, she identifies as a two-spirited indigenous American, who is hard of hearing and a member of the L G B T Q I a S two plus community. Joshua is the collective leader of the, every and inclusive. Meditative spiritual community and has been lauded as shaman of our generation. Joshua is a recent graduate of the communication management master's degree program here at university college at the university of Denver and Joshua received a master's in communication management, with a marketing communications focus, Josh enjoys helping brands. Organizations and individuals develop purpose driven narratives that are founded on social responsibility and hopes to remind everyone to follow their original instructions, to live in harmony with the universe around them. Welcome Joshua.
Joshua: 5:39
Hey, thanks for having me.
Cindy: 5:41
So today we are talking about inclusive classroom spaces and you know, this is. Such an important topic. As anybody who's familiar with university college knows university college has been offering courses online for a really long time. And, we're lucky because the pandemic didn't really throw us off our game too much because we already had all of our courses built out online and we really. For a long time have felt like we're a leader in that space. And we've got things pretty dialed in from a online instruction perspective. However, I do think that as inclusivity has come to the forefront I, I believe that we across higher ed I don't think it makes a difference. What institution you're talking about. We recognize that there's still a lot of room to change and refine. And and I think for me personally, I've really recognized that in the online learning environment creating that inclusive space where everybody feels like, they're safe and acknowledged and welcomed is. Challenging I know you've done a lot of thinking on this and a lot of research and you have also just completed your master's program online yes. Yes. So this is very real for you, right?
Joshua: 7:20
Absolutely. So it. Funny that you mentioned it, but the virtual and in person and showing up, right. We have that down. We know that we're supposed to be at some place at some time. We know which buttons that we have to hit. We know how to mute and unmute ourselves. Hopefully by now be almost three years into the pandemic. And, whether or not we're in person or virtual, there's this really amazing opportunity for us to come as we are and belong in whatever setting that we're in. And that is the higher part of purpose is. What am I doing here in this moment of time to grow and learn? And that is the heart of education, right? And then how do we make everything as accessible as possible to make sure that everyone's voices are being heard and as an opportunity to speak, if they would like to speak education. A privilege coming to the university of Denver was a privilege for me. I grew up coming to the campus and being involved with campus ministries loosely for about five years. And so I came to the campus, I understood the campus. And then I decided to do my masters. At the university of Denver and I was so excited to finally get to campus and go to classrooms and then the pandemic happened and then I wasn't allowed to mm-hmm so I still craved that opportunity to be among these learners and educators that I admired for so long. But one thing that I would want and encourage all Students and faculty to consider is just the benefit of the inclusion on all spectrums and how we're able to learn from what. Every unique voice is saying. So we have things like writing in the chat. We have things like your discussion boards and I've had some really great teachers who really wanted students to participate. And so they made the points for participation points, for contributing to conversations during our zoom calls via. Chat or via camera or via voice as well, too. So really amazing experiences with my learning there at the University of Denver specifically.
Cindy: 9:53
So you mentioned how to create these, these spaces where everybody's voice feels acknowledged and heard, and people feel seen, for who they are. That's, that's really kind of. The million dollar question, right? I think in most higher ed spaces, certainly around university college and around the university of Denver, we recognize that we need to, but that how, that's a tougher nut to crack because it's very nuanced. So, what are your thoughts on how that happens?
Joshua: 10:32
Oh, wow. That is the million dollar question. I completely agree. But luckily there's an answer to it. My entire education has been built on, you know, required reading and really examining, like who are the authors that we are requir. Students to read who are the voices in the classroom that we're bringing in as guest speakers? Are they unidimensional representations? Are they unidimensional in their presentation or are we expanding things to accept other writings to require different viewpoints on things in our classes? I didn't end up reading anything by native American, indigenous or Chicano authors until I. Almost a senior getting my bachelor of arts in English at the university of Colorado. And that was shocking to me. It was alarming to me that I had completely gotten that far in my academic career without being required to read any of the, this beautiful literature that I'm discovering now. And so for teachers, for faculty push for more diversity in your required readings for students require that outta your teachers require that in your conversation. Make it a real point of every discussion points that you make to reference something that's BI individual, a black indigenous person of color, plus as well too. And really just create those conversations that. People have to respond to.
Cindy: 12:17
And I know here at university college, we're all of that at different academic programs. Not just the communication management program that I manage, but we're all doing a bit of an audit of sorts we recognize that most of the readings are. In the learning resources are certainly not multi representational, that's for sure. And and so really taking a hard look at who else is a thought leader or a scholar in that space. And how can those voices come in so that there is a broader representation and more people are able to see themselves in the content. That's a great suggestion and is certainly one that doesn't happen overnight. I can say that from a, from an administrator standpoint there's a fair amount of time that goes into looking at all those learning resources and, and sourcing new resources. But it's absolutely something that we are committed to because there are a lot more voices out there than. The ones that historically are being represented in a lot of the content a across the spectrum in higher ed courses. You, you and I have had some side conversations about the power dynamic in a classroom, whether that's in person or online. And and so let's talk about that a bit, because I think that that is also a pretty critical component to creating inclusive learning spaces.
Joshua: 13:53
Yeah. I believe that inclusivity in itself has really become the banner of the left. The it's very like democratic as well too, but the truth is, is that. We need inclusivity on all spectrums and inclusivity. That means not just who's in the room, but who has the power to make decisions in the room and therefore there's room for everyone and their opinions, regardless of whether we think that they're right, or if they're wrong. And it just comes down to reiterating and establishing trust and respect with one another. During my studies, I. The opportunity to invite a fellow student in who was using the term illegal aliens in their discussion post. And I was specifically referencing indigenous and native American peoples. And I invited them in to let them know. You know, there is a certain privilege that other people get such as being called immigrant and migrant. And why are we calling this one demographic of people illegal? Right. And in academia, we need to understand that we are privileged enough to have the sacred opportunity to learn from one another. And even when someone's wrong, you're learning how they think. And you're watching them grow and process and receive new information. So even if you don't agree with them, you can at least state your own viewpoint on things and hope that they understand. And. Here actually reached out to me several times during the quarter and let them know like just how grateful they were that I reached out to them and called them into that bigger conversation.
Cindy: 15:39
You know, it makes me so happy to hear you say that. I find that I, I get frustrated with how often in the online discussion threads in our courses, students seem to feel like they have to agree with everybody all the time. and I encourage respect, respectful dissenting voices. You know, it is okay to. To disagree as long as you're doing it in a way where you are being respectful and you are supporting your, your opinion. And you know, I think that that's so important in an academic environment that we can have this healthy discourse where. We are sharing differences of opinions. That's how we learn. That's how we grow. And and I feel like particularly in the online space, People don't feel comfortable or maybe they don't feel safe to do that. So it becomes this bit of an echo chamber of people just agreeing with one another. And I often think that. Critical thinking takes a backseat. When all you're doing is, just agreeing with, what other people have to say. So I love that you challenged something that somebody posted in the discussion thread in your course, and that inspired. A deeper conversation about what had been discussed. So I, I think that's, it's a great example and it is also great modeling for students who might be listening to this and a lot of times people don't. that it is okay to say, wait a second. I don't know that I totally agree with that. I kind of see it a little bit differently and here's how I see it. And why, you know,
Joshua: 17:38
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And if you research inclusivity and intersectional representation, especially so much of what we know has been like in place from the generations that preceded us, being that we have to agree to disagree in order to get along. And that's not true at all. We can definitely disagree and get along as well, too, as people when you think about your own family members, you don't see eye to eye on every single topic that the person here. Right. Does, you know what I mean? Like you're the people who are closest to yeah. You are gonna agree on the majority of things. And I think that if we all set out a table together, we would all agree on the majority of. Things but it's just those small things that we're willing to die for. yes. That we're not willing to let go on. That really began to chip away at the spirit of inclusivity. The things that we're not able to look past, but the truth of the matter is, is that we are each, each other's mirror in a lot of different ways. And that's a belief that. Deeply seated in native American and indigenous thought where it's just like, you are representing a part of me that believes something else. And I, it's not my job to change your ideas on it, but I can show up as who I am and you could see who I am and what I believe and why I believe that. And then make your own decision for yourself. That's what critical thought is. Right?
Cindy: 19:08
Yeah. So as, as you know, you had emailed me some thoughts that you had on this topic in preparation for us recording this podcast and. One of the bullet points. I'm looking at it right now. And I would like to read it and, and then have you talk a little bit, this is a very interesting statement. You said we all need to become fluent in accessibility as the primary purpose of communications. Talk about what that means to you and your in intent with that statement.
Joshua: 19:47
Totally. Thank you very much for highlighting that point because that's so much of who I am. That's what led me to my studies of communication management. Marketing communication is accessibility and the heart of equity itself is just trying to give everybody the proper resources that they feel empowered to make their own decisions. And. Really just try to make sure that you are constantly, almost like an avalanche giving people what they need to succeed. And it is a rabbit hole in a lot of ways where if the reason why so many companies don't partake in accessibility, it's because it takes a lot of time. It takes a lot of effort, but accessibility lets us know that we were thought of before we entered a space. So making sure that all communications are accessible as possible. So what does that mean? It means that podcasts have transcripts that are written out for people who are deaf. So the deaf community is not missed out on this and I'm proud to represent the heart of hearing community and then making. That they have that or close captioning on your video going back to zoom as well, too. Or making sure that we have people who are signing at conferences at events in large groups where that's needed, but also making sure that there's resources for people who need translations of. Of text of your studies. And it's just amazes me how higher ed hasn't changed to be more accessible. But they still crave students. They still crave numbers. They still crave that population, but really. Have become removed from accessibility itself. And so if accessibility is at the forefront of everything, you have the opportunity to engage the largest audience possible.
Cindy: 21:53
And I love, I love what you said, so I'm gonna repeat it. That feeling that your needs have been thought about, that your needs have been considered before you showed up in the. I think that that is, that is so important that, considering everybody that might come into this space in person space or online space, and then considering their needs before somebody has to say, Hey, my needs weren't considered, you know?
Joshua: 22:28
Right.
Cindy: 22:29
And then that is what makes people feel include. When people can say, oh wow, my needs have been considered. I belong here. You know, this thing is already in place, so I don't have to ask for it. I don't have to be uncomfortable in any way. I can just seamlessly enjoy this experience or participate in this experience.
Joshua: 22:54
And learn. And that's the reason why we're all here at the end of the day. Like how hard is it to hand out a study guide and be like, if you have questions about this, here are the resources at the bottom of the page. Here are some people that you could reach out to like here's. Like the study guide or the study center, or like a peer group link, if you have questions and you need to reach out and just creating those connections to one another. And that just proves that we're not that different. We're all just on the same boat, dealing with the same things, dealing with the same you know So the same assignments, a and we're just United as a collective, like let's share our resources with one another as excessively as possible. Yeah.
Cindy: 23:40
So research absolutely has shown that more learning happens when students are not disconnected from one another, when they do not feel siloed and isolated and. Without a doubt research points to when students can collaborate with each other and also with course instructors, that the learning is enhanced by those efforts. And like, you. at university college. We absolutely have both types of learners. We have students that come into this wanting a fully asynchronous online experience. They wanna get from point a to point B as fast as possible. And they don't necessarily wanna take the time and the effort to engage with others along the way, even if we were to point out that their learning would be enhanced by. The engagement with their peers. So that type of learner absolutely exists. And then we have people at, at every stop on the spectrum between that. And you for example, who absolutely wants and needs to engage fully in your learning with. A a peer community or a community of, of peers and the person instructing and facilitating the course. So it's a real challenge unless there's somebody like you in the class who takes that, that initiative for the asynchronous courses it can't be an expectation for students to do that. And so when the idea of collaborating. Outside of the online space of when that gets presented by an instructor, then I think sometimes it starts to feel like an expectation that. That becomes overburdened some to students who want that fully asynchronous experience. But without a doubt, when students can collaborate with their peer learning group and talk about the assignments, talk about. The concepts dig into what they thought about certain readings or, you know, that share examples and experiences. I mean, one of the things that's so amazing about the adult learner space is that, when you think about undergraduate learning, there's a spectrum of experiences, background experiences, but for the most part there, isn't nearly the depth of background experiences for undergraduates as there is for graduates. Particularly adult learners that are in graduate school because there's a very wide spectrum. I mean, our learners range from, you know, 25 to 45 and older. And so the depth of experiences that those folks bring into the classroom quote unquote, is very diverse in. So much that can be learned from that if those experiences really get shared with others. And and so I think that the fact that you that you are encouraging people to maybe push their comfort zones. I mean, I recognize it wasn't pushing comfort zones for you, but for a lot of people that might be pushing their comfort zone a little bit. To, to reach out to others and create that community outside of the learning space. And, but so, so valuable. Right?
Joshua: 27:26
Right. If you're able to make a connection with a student or a peer or even a faculty member about just that experiential learning and just realized that this person is coming. To you is in the same boat. Like I said before, like same classroom, same experience in the moment, but they have a whole F of knowledge that they're willing to share with you and you have a different experience that they have nothing about. And we're, I think we. Go wrong is that we think one experience is better than the other, or one experience is more entitled or privileged than the other. But really we, every story is so important and deserves the opportunity to be told. And we have the opportunity to connect and share our stories. In the classroom. And it's just about establishing that respect and trust with one another. And it's really hard to manifest that idea into something that's palpable that people can turn into, but really it comes with removing any stereotypes that you have, any biases that you had any. Preconceived notions that you might have about a certain person. And just realizing that this is a soul sharing their story with me in this moment about this topic that interests are both. That's why we're in this school. That's why we're in this, a program together in this classroom. And what did they have to say? What's their viewpoint in this picture? In the mirror that we're both in. Right, right. Bringing an open mind being and, and really active listening to the learning space so that you can learn and benefit and grow from everybody's story everybody's perspective. And in, in addition to that, that you're learning in the course. I think it all, all those things work together to enhance the experience and you're right. It starts with trust and feeling safe and feeling like you're not in a space where you're going to be judged for your stories or for your thoughts.
Cindy: 29:45
Well, this has been. Just a pleasure to to talk to you, to hear about your experiences and to, and to get some feedback through your lens and from your perspective of ways that the online classroom space in particular can can be improved to, to honor and, and include more people and more voices. So thank you very much for sharing all of your thoughts today. Joshua.
Joshua: 30:18
Thank you very much for having me like I said, it's a very rare opportunity that has been given to me. If you would've told know baby Joshua, that one day he would be on a podcast for the university of Denver, trying to share his opinion, to try to create more inclusive classrooms that are founded on our own unique purpose and being able to show up into places of belonging. My head probably would. But I, I am very happy to be here today as fully myself. And share this time with you. Well, it is, it has been an honor and and a pleasure. So thank you so much.
Cindy: 30:59
From workforce development to the adult learner experience in an outside the classroom, we're exploring the unique space where industry and higher education collide. Have a topic you're passionate about. Join our conversation by submitting suggestions or interview ideas through our website@universitycollegedotdu.edu forward slash elevated. I hope you'll subscribe and share this podcast with colleagues and friends who are also interested in fostering connections between industry and higher education. Thanks for listening.