LEADERSHIP | Overcoming Burnout and Enhancing Team Performance, w/ Jimmy Burroughes.

Introduction

Welcome to episode 240 of Business Owner's Radio! In this engaging and insightful episode, we're excited to have Jimmy Burroughes, the co-author of "Beat Burnout, Ignite Performance: The Leader's Playbook for Building a High-Performance Culture." Jimmy, a former Army officer, corporate CEO, and high achiever, is now a renowned leadership expert advising businesses globally. He aims to aid organizations in achieving outstanding outcomes without overburdening their workforce. Join us as we dive into the challenges of modern work culture, the fight against burnout, and strategies for fostering a high-performance environment.

Main Talking Points

• Jimmy Burroughes' Journey to Writing "Beat Burnout, Ignite Performance": A personal experience of overcoming burnout in a high-stress, high-responsibility role led Jimmy to start his consulting and coaching business, focusing on avoiding burnout and promoting high performance.
• The Evolving Work Culture and Challenges: Insight into how modern work culture, characterized by a high volume of data and demands, is contributing to increased stress and burnout among leaders and managers.
• The Impact of Leadership Development Gaps: Discussion about the lack of continuous leadership training and its contribution to workplace stress and burnout.
• Understanding and Overcoming Imposter Syndrome: Exploring how imposter syndrome can drive individuals towards burnout and the importance of addressing it in the workplace.
• The Importance of Purpose in Organizations: Jimmy highlights the crucial role of clear purpose in aligning team and organizational goals, which helps prevent burnout and improve performance.
• Strategies to Shift Towards a Positive, Abundant Mindset: Techniques and approaches to shift from stress and burnout to positive engagement and high performance.
• Jimmy's Insights on Keeping Up with Industry Trends: A blend of direct client engagement, continuous learning, and personal mindfulness practices keeps Jimmy informed and effective in his field.

Conclusion

For more information about Jimmy Burroughes and to access his resources, visit jimmyburroughes.com. Don't miss his upcoming book, "Escaping the Multitasking Trap," and explore more episodes on our website, businessownersradio.com.

Listen and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, and Stitcher.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

And now taking care of business, your hosts Craig Mohan and Shy Ghalad.

Speaker 2: 0:08

Welcome to Business Owner's Radio, episode 240. Joining us in the studio today is Jimmy Burroughs, co-author of the new book Beat Burnout, ignite Performance the leader's playbook for building a high performance culture. Jimmy is a former Army officer, corporate CEO and repeat high achiever. He is now a sought after leadership expert and advisor to businesses worldwide. His mission is to help organizations achieve significantly improved business outcomes without exhausting their workforce. Good morning, jimmy. Welcome to Business Owner's Radio.

Speaker 3: 0:47

Good morning, Craig. So great to be here.

Speaker 2: 0:50

It's great to have you on board today, and what a hot topic, the challenges out there and your new book. This is going to be fantastic and we always like to start out with that great question is what led up to writing this book?

Speaker 3: 1:05

That is a great question because I guess, like a lot of people who end up in the world of consulting, tends to be quite a momentous occasion in your life that causes you to feel like you want to go out there and live your purpose in a different way. And if I rewind the clock back to 2017, which seems like a long time ago now I was late 30s GM working in a large organization, responsible for an eight-figure P&L, with a team of about 40 people working across 20 plus countries. So, as you can probably imagine, traveling a lot, in a lot of meetings, working all the hours God sent, trying to get up in the morning and do my board papers before I went into a day full of meetings and then traveling between my team members and between different cities, different clients, pretty much nonstop, and it gets pretty tiring. I had three executive leaders in 18 months. So, as you can imagine, every time you change boss, you have to prove yourself and, as somebody who had battled with imposter syndrome in my earlier career, that came back again when I was thinking am I good enough? Are they going to find me out? I'm 15 years younger than anybody else at my level in the business. Are they going to say I'm just a silly kid and I'm in the wrong place? So I would work extra hard to make sure that didn't happen. Equally, over time, because there was so much transition happening in the business we were changing our customer acquisition model, we were changing the physical footprint of the business, we were changing and outsourcing our customer services, with very little change management actually happening. The board was fairly disaffected and disparate, and so there were lots of internal conflict in the business, which obviously cascaded down to us. Seven GMs across the business and over those 18 months, five of the seven left the organization.

Speaker 3: 2:53

Because it was pretty chaotic, and I remember sitting on the side of my bed in 2017, I was 25 kilos heavier than I am now because I was living on caffeine and red wine and saying to myself Jimmy, this is going to go one or two ways. You're either going to have a heart attack or you are going to get fired because you're going to say something you didn't mean, because you're so tired and you're so exhausted, so you need to do something about it. So that was what I started to do. I started to make a change and I took some time away from the workplace to initially just recharge my batteries after pretty much 20 years of nonstop working, and then started to have some conversations with people as I was traveling around Latin America, and a lot of the people I was traveling with that I ended up in conversations with were business owners, business leaders who were just taking a break because they were exhausted and they felt what now we call burnout.

Speaker 3: 3:46

But in those days it was, oh, I'm stressed out and I'm tired out and I'm worn out and it all seems to have got on top of me, and I found a lot of similarities in what they were saying to what I had been saying and gradually, over the course of the next couple of years, that started to turn into a coaching organization, which then turned into a consulting business, which migrated to working with some fairly large organizations on their leadership development programs and designing and developing high performance team programs with the avoidance of burnout and the pursuit of high performance in mind. So about 18 months ago, we put together a book and I sat down over last Christmas and finished the book and edited it and we released it in the middle of the 2023. And it's been going great guns. So we ended up with what we call a playbook for beating, burnout and igniting performance with you and your team.

Speaker 2: 4:40

It's amazing the effects of the ground quaking underneath you when you're running an organization and the organization's trying to hold their place and not focus inward but actually getting focused outward. But with so much going on, it's extremely difficult and chaotic. Let's talk about the work culture in general. What's been going on in the last, say, 10 years and what have you seen? Some changes lately.

Speaker 3: 5:08

Well, this is a really interesting question because it's extremely complex and I use that from looking from the outside in, but also what our leaders are experiencing. So let me give you some specifics. If we look at the amount of data that the average manager or leader processes on a daily basis, it's approximately four times as much as our parents generation processed in a month. So you think back to those days. It was a letter which took a few days to arrive. You'd sit on it, you'd think about it, you'd have a meeting about it, you'd draft a letter and send it back. That now happens in five minutes, and so the pace and tempo and the number of things that we're expected to deal with on a daily basis is truly, exponentially larger. And that causes a real challenge, because one of the things that we're not very good at as managers and leaders is prioritization. So we tend to end up as the hamster on the wheel playing whack-a-mole, and the faster we run, the faster things come back to us and the faster things end up on our plate and the less time we have to make considered high quality decisions. You add to that what I call a generation of under investment in leadership development, and that starts it to cause some issues for us.

Speaker 3: 6:24

For example, most of us, when we get promoted to a leadership role of some sort whether it's a supervisor, team leader Our first kind of job, we go on the management course and then generally we get nothing else until we're senior enough to be able to afford an executive coach.

Speaker 3: 6:42

But there's this big void in the middle and some fascinating research from Zenger and folkman that said there was a 16 year void of leadership development training in most people's careers. Well, we all know that leading a team is very, very different to leading a business, whether it's a 10 million dollar business or a 10 billion dollar business. The complexity and the considerations that you're dealing with don't work with a toolkit from a team leader. But that's what most of us are leaning on, relying on and doing trial and error, hoping we learn some lessons along the way and hoping we don't burn us or our teams out along the way. So we've got this real tension going on. It's way more complex environment where everybody's expected to deliver everything faster, better, more efficiently than last year. We've got this generation of under investment, which means that we aren't trained to do the jobs we're being asked to do and we're being asked to do more than we've ever been asked to do and we don't have the training to cope with that and of course, that creates this epidemic of burnouts.

Speaker 2: 7:42

Who do you think is in charge of creating this work culture that is a substitute if you will continue as decline of the performance of their team.

Speaker 3: 7:53

You know we've done a lot of research on this and it's probably quite hard to hear, but it comes down to you, the listener, the person who's on the other end of this podcast. It's the choices that you make which cause a lot of this to happen, and that can be quite confrontational when people hear it. But then you start to dig a little bit deeper into it and you say well, you know, how many times do you work a bit later? Then you should do just to get something done. Or how many times do you answer an email when you're sat on the couch watching TV and so that bats it back into somebody else's inbox? How many times do you say let's have a meeting on this rather than just solving it in a quick phone call?

Speaker 3: 8:32

It's the small choices that we make that start to add up.

Speaker 3: 8:36

Equally, I'm very guilty of when I'm really stressed and I'm working really hard, the first thing that goes out the window is eating well and exercising, because I'm too busy to cook healthfully. So I just grab, you know, a takeaway or whatever it might be, and I'm too busy to go to the gym because I've got to get this proposal done or this board paper done or whatever it might be, and so that goes out the window, and we need to eat well and to exercise well and, in fact, to sleep well in order to maintain our mental and physical health. But we don't. We just go and choose work. And so when I say this is caused by you, it means that we make these small choices that start to stack up and it's kind of like the plug hole effect. At first you don't really notice it, but when you're down in that swirly bit, when you're just about to get on the plug hole, that's when it starts to become too difficult to get out of, and that's what we call a cycle of burnout, when people are really struggling.

Speaker 4: 9:32

I can't help but think about. You know where we started here, and you had mentioned imposter syndrome. First of all, I'm wondering how you think about that term, because I've heard it used a lot of different ways, and I'm also curious how it relates to this cycle that you're talking about.

Speaker 3: 9:47

Yeah, absolutely Great question. You know imposter syndrome for those who haven't come across the phenomenon or didn't know, that was what the term is, it's when you live and operate from a fear of being found out or from a fear of not being good enough. And, ironically, it is generally the affliction of highly capable, highly motivated people, because they're driven by fear and anxiety of being found out. So they're the ones that work extra hard, that stay extra late, that push through the weekends, that go above and beyond to create the result that leads their boss to saying, oh, good job. What then happens with the imposter syndrome person is they say, oh, the only reason I got through that was luck, or because I worked so hard on it. So next time the boss says, oh well, you know, you did a really good job on that. I'm going to give you this even more challenging project now, a promotion or a bigger responsibility, because I know you can do it. And immediately that anxiety flares up again.

Speaker 3: 10:46

Now the product of that imposter syndrome is some chemical reactions in your body, and those chemical reactions start pushing you towards burnout. There's some great research from I think it's Deloitte, who essentially tracked, of the people who burned out More than 80% of them also had imposter syndrome. So when you're looking across your team, at the people who are exhausted, who are working extra hard, who are burning out, often it's because they have this feeling of I don't want to be found out and I'm not good enough. The people who are burning out are not your lazy underperformers. They are highly motivated, highly engaged staff who are giving everything they have for you and for your business and they're really struggling. So it's saying well, this is, yes, some of the choices they're making, but also the way we're leading this business, is causing those people to feel like that and act like that.

Speaker 4: 11:38

And I can't help but thinking that, with this 16-year gap in leadership development on average, or however you want to think about that number, but I think most of us just listening right now could think about when was the last time that I received formal leadership training?

Speaker 4: 11:56

You know that I didn't self-select in some way or invest in outside of an organization or outside of my own company and you know, not many of us had that. You know that we didn't have it in high school or had probably very little in college and probably little in any organizations we've been in. So many entrepreneurs had a career first, you know they had some kind of a job and often became accidental entrepreneurs. Where they were good at something, opportunity presents itself. So then, as soon as you start to struggle, you feel this sense of oh, am I good enough? Maybe I'm really not an entrepreneur, how am I going to do this? And then you know what I think amplifies that even more is you no longer have a boss to throw you a cookie to say, oh, you're doing a good job. So now you're striving harder for that validation and you can see that becoming a real spiral.

Speaker 3: 12:46

Absolutely, and you know you bring up a really great insight there around the power of motivators and we as humans are. I like to say we're drug addicts, because it kind of makes people poke their ears up, but essentially we're drug addicts for dopamine. Dopamine is the chemical. It's often misunderstood. People think it's the achievement chemical. It's not. It's the chase chemical. It's the chase for the achievement that gives us the dopamine. And so when we get presented with this challenge, we get this flood of dopamine of trying to solve that, but it's cancelled out by the flood of cortisol that I might not be able to solve this. So we are addicted to this feeling of I really want to do some cool stuff, but unless I'm getting the hey, great job and the validation at the end of it, I don't get the full release of dopamine. I don't get that.

Speaker 3: 13:33

You did a good job on the chase and you did a good job on the delivery. I just get the chase and I get the stress and the anxiety of I might not be able to. Can you imagine that's like that yin and yang process? I'd love to go back to that piece. You said around the 16 year gap. You know, if I was an accountant and I was initially given you know, here's the month end process at university and I learned how to do it, and then I didn't get any more training until I was a CFO. Do you think I'd be a competent accountant? Possibly not so. But we do this with leaders. We say here's the basics, and then you get nothing until you're the boss.

Speaker 4: 14:08

Yeah, it's so true. And then you set off on your own and inevitably you start to try to build an organization and these gaps just show up. You know, and you don't necessarily have language for it, but you just feel like, oh, why don't I know how to do this, or why can't I motivate people to do the thing I need them to do? Why am I struggling with delegation? Why is all of this so hard and there's no one there to give you that language of you know?

Speaker 3: 14:32

well, first of all, you never taught how to do any of this, so it's not like there's an eight skill here Exactly, and if you struck out as an entrepreneur you know, relatively junior in your corporate career, or maybe you never went to the corporate organizations and you struck out and said well, I was disaffected by the corporate world, I had a poor leader or a bad experience, and that's what led me to go and do my own thing, which is a common route for a lot of entrepreneurs Then you haven't been ingrained with any skills. So then you're trying to learn it or wing it or trial and error it to get it right. And I can tell you a story. I had a dinner party last week with a very successful startup in Canada. They're one of the top sort of growth organizations to watch and they've gone from eight people to 50 people in 12 months and they're predicting they'll probably triple again in the next 12 months and a bit to 150 people.

Speaker 3: 15:26

And we were talking about some of those cultural challenges, you know, being the CEO or the CFO of the team who we all used to sit around the table in a bar and solve everything. And now we've got layers and complexity and people are starting to subdivide jobs and people don't have direct access to me and I kind of missed us having pizzas with everybody and it's different. And now we need processes and stuff. And of course, this puts a lot of extra stress on somebody who's maybe not got the support of someone like us to say, hey, let's just be a sounding board for you and help you through this and tell you what's happening and why it's happening and then, more importantly, what you can do about it that isn't gonna add too much extra load on your plate. Because that's the key piece with a lot of people who are burning out is, you can't send them on a leadership course to solve burnout because they're already overwhelmed. You've gotta start making some very small inroads to the small choices they're making that get them off the brink.

Speaker 4: 16:19

Well, let's dive into that, Jimmy, because I know that you talk about how you move from this problem and getting into this more abundant mindset and understanding the things that can help you shift in a more positive direction. So how do we do that?

Speaker 3: 16:32

Yeah, good question. It's interesting. Probably the number one thing that I recommend to every organization and we've done this hundreds and hundreds of times now, so we know it's the one thing that really makes a big difference is getting very clear on purpose. Now that sounds relatively obvious, but you'd be surprised and I'll give you an example. In purpose, we have a framework called the Purpose Pyramid, four Layers my individual purpose why was I put on this planet? My role purpose what's the reason for my job existing? My team purpose what do we do as a team? And my organizational purpose how we're making a difference to this planet, and it all interconnected. But for the purposes of this, let's go into team purpose, which is level three on the pyramid.

Speaker 3: 17:14

Now, when I was working with a large pharmaceutical organization, we sat down with one of their sales teams and we asked them the question can everybody just write down on a post-it note or a piece of paper what's the purpose of this team? And we got 25 different answers. Everybody was assured they knew why the team existed and what they were there for, but there were 25 different answers. And the analogy I can use there is if I put you all in a rowing boat and just tell you to row as hard as you can in whichever direction you feel is right. You're all gonna be pulling at different times in different directions and that boat is not gonna win the Oxford to Cambridge boat races. It's gonna be going in circles or not going anywhere, but everybody's gonna be getting tired and trying really hard. There'll be lots of people shouting and getting frustrated with each other because the boat's not moving, even though we're all trying hard, and that's the reality of what goes on in most teams who haven't sat down and clarified their purpose.

Speaker 3: 18:09

So in the book we give you the recipe for how to get your purpose aligned, and the difference it makes is you start to have people making priority calls aligned to purpose. You start to channel resources and effort and people into the purpose, and that's one of the single biggest things that you as an entrepreneur or as a leader of a business can do is to get everybody very aligned and talk consistently about the purpose of this team or the purpose of this organization, the purpose of what we're doing, because people can't hear it too often and will realign on it, and even over time purpose migrates, so you've got to keep reminding people what it is. So that's probably one of the sort of the first steps I would take, and you can do that using the framework that we have in the book, using the steps that we lay out in about 45 minutes. So it's one leadership team meeting where you get very clear.

Speaker 2: 19:04

Jimmy, that's excellent Love to be able to walk away from this as a business owner and have one thing to focus on and appreciate that insight. That's extremely helpful. I was curious how do you keep yourself up to date on the topics we're talking about?

Speaker 3: 19:21

I think there's probably three ways that I'm doing it. Number one is I'm very much in my client's world all the time. Last year we ran over 500 workshops with teams across the globe, and so you're talking to the people who are in it all the time and you're listening for the trends and the data. We use some pretty sophisticated language analysis tools and artificial intelligence tools now to give us insights and data from transcripts and from feedback forms and all these other things that really show us what's going on in people's minds. So I keep myself very up to date in terms of what's the language of the day, what are the issues, what are the common things that are coming up and what are the patterns that we can spot and start to solve for and they do migrate over time. The second one that we do is we're voracious readers and learners. I have a little research group that works with me who pull out white papers, who are always sifting through all of the research papers and the GART and the papers Deloitte, all those good things, mckinsey. There's some fascinating data out there on the internet and if you can again assimilate it and put it into your mind, it gives you more food for thought. So I definitely recommend doing either a Google alert or signing up and subscribing to definitely things like McKinsey, deloitte, kpmg and Microsoft. They all produce really good papers on leadership and those topics.

Speaker 3: 20:42

And then the third piece, I guess, is the way of living it. How do I keep myself up to date with burnout? I try and now be much more mindful about where is my head at my own personal life, at how many times have I gone to the gym this week? How many times have I ought to take away? Have I gone for a run? Have I gone scuba diving, which is my great love? If I haven't, then I know that I'm starting to erode my performance because I'm not doing the restorative things that allow me to be at my best. So keeping up to date is also keeping up to date and accountable for myself, my small choices.

Speaker 2: 21:15

That's helpful. I appreciate it. I'm curious. You've worked with hundreds of companies and organizations and it's always nice to have a vision as a business owner of, okay, who's doing it right? What's a good model of the companies you've worked with or come across or read about? What would you say are a couple of the best model companies out there that are dealing with a work environment and stress and becoming balanced within their organizations?

Speaker 3: 21:44

It's a challenging question because we often are brought into organizations where they have a cultural challenge. They have maybe burnout and started to become a bit of an issue for them and often they don't want people to know about that. So we work under NDAs with a lot of our clients because they don't want us to tell everybody oh, I worked with company X and they had these big problems. But what I can tell you is two companies that I've seen who went through a significant transformation and how they did that. So one of the companies that we had the opportunity to model and shadow from was a very large consulting organization global consulting organization and their consultants are known for working extremely long hours and extremely hard, and we used what ended up as Chapter 5 of the book as the focus for that team, which was downtime. So Chapter 5 is all about downtime and with the consultants. They split the consultants into three groups. Group A we're told to carry on working as normal. Group B we're told to shut their laptops at 5pm once per week and go off and do something they wanted to do, and whether that's hobbies or friends or partners or whatever it might be. Group C we're told to close their laptops at least three times a week at 5pm and go and do what they wanted to do, and they just tracked their performance over six months. As you can probably gather, the group C consultants ended the experiment outperforming their peers by a statistically important revenue figure. They also were more engaged, they'd had less sick days, they were more creative, they were happier and stickier to the organization in terms of their retention and they were reported by clients as being more interactive and more fun to be with. So there was a real upside opportunity for actually just downtime, and the book goes into it in a lot more detail, but essentially it's just allowing your brain to recharge a little bit so you can come back to work and perform better. So that was probably one really interesting organization that we got to shadow and look at as how they were making a difference.

Speaker 3: 23:49

The other one is an organization I worked with across Australasia and they're a hospitality and casino and gaming business and they have restaurants and all sorts of things and you can imagine in the customer service world it's extremely challenging to not burn out because there's always a demand on all the staff and those of you who have got any experience of hospitality COVID has been pretty tough on that industry and subsequently trying to hire and retain staff since COVID has been extremely challenging. That means they've always got venues that are under staff. They're always working extra shifts and gradually eroding themselves, and so one of the things that we focused on with them was Chapter 3 of the book Connection, but specifically really focusing on how they onboard effectively. Let me go into detail the idea that if we could train some people to onboard new staff more effectively than just saying here's your apron, get on with it, or you're sweeping those rooms, go and clean those rooms, go and deal those cards, just work it out, get on with it, chances are those people would get very nervous, very anxious and leave pretty quickly, and there was a high turnover in that business fairly early on. What we did was we focused on how do I help those people integrate and incorporate themselves into the business so they feel sticky and included and part of the tribe and technically competent to do their jobs more effectively, and we did that through creating seven very simple manager tools and giving what we call onboarding coaches some basic tools. These onboarding coaches were team leaders, supervisors, shift managers, ops managers, things like that, so that mid-management level, and they were then able to free up their own time, because they spent maybe 15 minutes a day training new starter on something and the new starter stayed. And the new starter was also more confident in solving the problems that might be related to what happens if my party doesn't turn up or what happens if there's an extra person at the table, or what happens if there's somebody who's drunk and gambling. How do I deal with those things? So they didn't need to then go and ask their manager straight away because they'd already been trained. So that onboarding was really key for shifting the culture of the business, so that the managers didn't burn out, they weren't overworked and the employees didn't burn out because they were trained and supported effectively.

Speaker 3: 26:03

From my perspective, the key here is really empathizing with people who are going through tough times right now. I really get it. I've been there. I've been in the position where I can't think straight. I'm struggling to make decisions. I'm struggling to think about how am I going to deal with all these things and my to-do list, and I've worked out how to get out of it and I've shown thousands of people how to get out of that.

Speaker 3: 26:28

So if you're feeling like the only way out is to quit, and the anxiety of quitting and not being able to pay your mortgage or feed your family is causing you concern. There is hope and people like me and, equally, craig and Shai, people like you, who are able to support people through those moments. I think it's seeing that there is support available if you need it. Equally, if you're not ready to commit to a relationship of coaching or mentoring, perhaps take a look at some of the other resources that are available through podcasts, through the books and things that are published. We're about to release our second book, which is Escaping the Multitasking Trap, just to give you some really simple things that you can read in five, 10 minutes a day and put into action immediately. I think they're probably the two things I would love to say is yeah, we hear you, we feel you, we know what it's like and we've been there and solved it and there's stuff that can support you.

Speaker 2: 27:22

Well, Jimmy, it's been great having you on the studio today and we really appreciate your time. Thank you for joining us.

Speaker 3: 27:29

Thank you so much for having me. It's been so wonderful just to share some thoughts with like-minded people.

Speaker 2: 27:35

And we really would like to make sure our listeners are aware of some of the new offerings you've got going. Tell us a bit more, and where can we find out more?

Speaker 3: 27:44

Absolutely so. All of the resources that we have available are on jimmyburrowscom and I'm hoping the link will be somewhere in the show notes or attached to the podcast, but it's J-I-M-M-Y-B-U-R-O-U-G-H-E-S dot com and in there you'll find access to our podcast and the two books. The new book is going to be released very, very soon and if you are somebody who is a master multitasker and is thinking that you can solve everything by juggling all the plates at the same time, this book is for you. It's going to unpack in a bit more detail how multitasking works and is also getting in the way of your impact and performance, and what you can do.

Speaker 3: 28:31

Instead. We're giving it away. It's a free ebook, so you can download it onto any device and take a read, and all we want you to do is get access to the best possible resources that are out there. So encourage you to go to jimmyburrowscom, check out our two books the Beat Burnout book and the Escape the multitasking trap and maybe, if you're interested in podcasts, take a listen to our podcast, the High Performance Leader, and it's available on all podcast platforms.

Speaker 2: 28:59

Our guest today has been Jimmy Burrows, co-author of the new book Beat Burnout, Ignite Performance the leader's playbook for building a high performance culture. You can learn more about Jimmy, as well as find links to his content all on our website at businessownersradiocom.

Speaker 1: 29:19

Thank you for joining us on Business Owners Radio. We hope you enjoyed today's show. As always, you can read more about each episode, along with links and offers, in the show notes on our website, businessownersradiocom. If you want to hear your feedback, please leave comments on this show or suggestions for upcoming episodes. Tell your fellow business owners about the show and, of course, you would love the stars and comments on iTunes. Until next time, keep taking care of business.