In the latest episode of the L3 Leadership podcast, Doug Smith speaks with Ryan Hawk about his advice in the corporate world, experience in football, his recent book, Welcome To Management: How To Grow From Top Performer To Excellent Leader, his show, The Learning Leader Show, and more. Check it out on any major podcasting platform!
Key Take-Aways From Episode 279:
About Ryan Hawk
Ryan Hawk is a keynote speaker, author, advisor, and the host of The Learning Leader Show, a podcast with millions of listeners in more than 150 countries. He is the author of Welcome To Management: How To Grow From Top Performer To Excellent Leader (McGraw-Hill, January 2020). Forbes called WELCOME TO MANAGEMENT “the best leadership book of 2020.”
A lifelong student of leadership, he rose to roles as a professional quarterback and VP of Sales at a multibillion-dollar company. Currently, as head of Brixey & Meyer’s leadership advisory practice, Ryan speaks regularly at Fortune 500 companies, works with teams and players in the NFL, NBA, and NCAA, and facilitates “Leadership Circles” that offers structured guidance and collaborative feedback to new and experienced leaders.
In the latest episode of the L3 Leadership podcast, Doug Smith speaks with Ryan Hawk about his advice in the corporate world, experience in football, his recent book, Welcome To Management: How To Grow From Top Performer To Excellent Leader, his show, The Learning Leader Show, and more. Check it out on any major podcasting platform!
Key Take-Aways From Episode 279:
About Ryan Hawk
Ryan Hawk is a keynote speaker, author, advisor, and the host of The Learning Leader Show, a podcast with millions of listeners in more than 150 countries. He is the author of Welcome To Management: How To Grow From Top Performer To Excellent Leader (McGraw-Hill, January 2020). Forbes called WELCOME TO MANAGEMENT “the best leadership book of 2020.”
A lifelong student of leadership, he rose to roles as a professional quarterback and VP of Sales at a multibillion-dollar company. Currently, as head of Brixey & Meyer’s leadership advisory practice, Ryan speaks regularly at Fortune 500 companies, works with teams and players in the NFL, NBA, and NCAA, and facilitates “Leadership Circles” that offers structured guidance and collaborative feedback to new and experienced leaders.
[inaudible]
Speaker 2:Hey, podcast, family, and welcome to episode number 279 of the L three leadership podcast, where we are obsessed with helping you grow to your maximum potential and to maximize the impact of your leadership. My name is Doug Smith and I am your host and today's episode is brought to you by my good friends at bear tongue advisors. If you're new to the podcast, welcome, I'm so glad that you're here and I hope that you enjoy our content and that you'll become a subscriber every month. You'll get at least two episodes from us. One will be a conversation that I have with a high level leader, and one will be a personal leadership lesson for me that I know add value to your life. So make sure that you're subscribed. And if you've been with us for a while, thank you so much for being a listener. It means the world to me, and just make sure that you're subscribed. And again, if this podcast has added value to your life, it would mean the world to me. If you would share it with other leaders or leave us a rating and review that really does help us grow our audience and reach more leaders. So thank you in advance for that. And today's episode, you'll hear my conversation with Ryan Hawk. And let me just tell you a little bit about Ryan in case you're unfamiliar with him. Ryan is a keynote speaker, author advisor, and the host of the learning leader show a podcast with millions of listeners and more than 150 countries. He's also the author of welcome to management. He's a lifelong student of leadership, and he's actually written a role such as professional quarterback and VP of sales at a multi-billion dollar company. He's currently the head of Brooksley and Meyers leadership advisory pack practice. And he also speaks regularly at fortune 500 companies works with teams and players in the NFL NBA, NCAA and facilitates leadership circles that offer structured guidance and collaborative feedback to new and experienced leaders. And I've been following Ryan for years now, and it was great to be able to sit down with him and have a conversation with him. And one thing that I didn't know, and I'm from Pittsburgh, and if you're from Pittsburgh, this is interesting. Ryan was actually playing football with Ben Roethlisberger in college and they competed head to head and I'll let him share how that story ended. Uh, but really, really interesting. You're going to get a ton out of this interview, but before we dive into the conversation, just a few announcements. This episode of the L-3 leadership podcast is sponsored by bear tongue advisors, the financial advisors at bear tongue advisors, help educate and empower clients to make informed financial decisions. You can find out how bear tongue advisors can help you develop a customized financial plan for your financial future by visiting their website at bear tongue advisors, that's B E R a T U N G advisors.com securities and investment products and services offered through Waddell and Reed, Inc member FINRA, and SIPC bare tongue advisors wide open read, and L three leadership are separate entities. I also want to thank our sponsor Henny jewelers. They're jeweler owned by my friend and mentor John Henney and my wife, Laura, and I got our wedding and engagement rings at Henny jewelers and had a wonderful experience. But what we really love about them is not only do they have great jewelry, but they also invest in and believe in people. In fact, every couple of that comes in and gets engaged at Henny jewelers. They give them a book to help them prepare for their marriage. And we just love that about them. So if you're in need of a good jeweler, check out Henny jewelers.com and with all that being said, let's dive right into the episode. Here's my conversation with Ryan Hawk, the learning leader. Well, thank you, Ryan so much for being willing to do this interview. And why don't we just start off with you just telling us a little bit about who you are and what you do.
Speaker 3:Uh, okay. My name is Ryan Hawk. I, uh, try really hard to, to help people become more effective leaders. There's a number of different avenues and ways. I do that one for my podcast, the learning leader show been doing for six years, 415, plus those things going now, fortunately, it's gone well enough that, um, you know, when I started the podcast, I was working as a, in the corporate quarter corporate America world. I was a VP of north American sales for a multi-billion dollar company. And, um, it was going really well, but, uh, I came to kind of an inflection point about three and a half years ago where I was going to have to either kind of slow down on the side, how so all of my podcasts and all of the cool things that were coming from it, or, or decide to leave that lucrative, uh, high salary job for the more reckless path of doing my own thing. Uh, and I elected for the latter. So that's what I've been doing now for three and a half years full time when it comes to my podcast and then working with leadership teams and leaders from an individual perspective, as well as all of the cool things that come from that, like, you know, speaking, running leadership source circles, um, and getting the experience and work with a variety of, of leadership teams in different industries, um, all over the world.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Talk a little bit about that transition because I know a lot of people listening to this are probably, they probably have full-time jobs. They've always dreamed of making a jump to something and maybe they're afraid to, or not sure if it will work, you clearly did. And it seems like it's going pretty well. What would your advice be to people kind of processing that decision?
Speaker 3:Well, I don't know if I'm the best for this because I definitely have, I've never had that dream. Um, I never ever considered leaving corporate America. I was in a pretty good position and had worked really hard to get to that position as, as a, um, the youngest VP in, in our, in our company at that time. And so I, um, I know a lot of people thought it was stupid to leave. What I though what the whole purpose behind my show was. I'd finished getting my MBA. Um, I was at a director level at that time. Uh, my, my company paid for it. They reimbursed me like a lot of companies to do educational reimbursement. And I was, I was looking to continue to go to school because I felt like I was wasting that money, that my company would give me if I wasn't using it for some sort of educational reimbursement. And so I was looking and starting to apply for a, to get a, another graduate degree or even a PhD. And, uh, along the way, I was lucky to have a dinner with a guy named Todd Wagner and Todd is mark Cuban's business partner. They started broadcast.com together. And, uh, I, I went to the dinner early and Todd did too, before the rest of the group got there. And I just peppered him with questions the whole time. And, and he was gracious and kind and curious and humble and answered all of my questions. And I, as I was flying home from that trip, I just thought like, is there a, is there a better way for me to go and create my own form of a leadership PhD program and instead of going to school. And so that's why six plus years ago I launched my podcast, the learning leader show where it's my form of a leadership PhD program. I'm going to learn in public and I'm going to choose all the professors. And hopefully if it goes well, that not only will I get to learn, but others could learn along with me. And if that happens in awesome that I'm impacting others in a positive way. So I had no intention to leave, but, you know, after doing it for three or three or so years, I, um, was, uh, just getting a lot of inquiries to help and do some work outside of my day job to the point, like I mentioned, it was too much and I was left with a choice and I had a good, a good friend named Doug Meyer who wanted to support this and, and basically back me to, to do this. And, uh, and that's what I elected to do. And so I would, I kind of stumbled into it. Um, I did not have any plan or intention or set a goal to do that. It happened, but I think that's part of why it happened was because the focus was just on the work. The focus was on producing good quality work that could help other people. And, and I think if you, if you do that enough times where you consistently putting something out in this case, it's free because it's a podcast, but you consistently help enough people, they start reaching out to you to do more. Um, and that could, that could then start, start in a, in a way becoming a business. And so that's when that became so much, that's when I thought, you know, what that's, this is, this is probably something I should, I should consider leaning into. And that's what I did. Yeah, no,
Speaker 2:Thanks for sharing that. I didn't know the details of that, that jump. Um, I did want to talk to you a little bit about your career when you were in corporate, you know, you start off entry level as a sales rep and you ended up the VP of sales at a multi-billion dollar company. No big deal. Um, I'm just curious, what, what advice do you have for people first looking to climb the corporate ladder or want to grow in their careers?
Speaker 3:Uh, so obviously you gotta be actual at, in your current role, uh, whatever it is that you're doing, be excellent world-class in your current role, do whatever it takes to be, to be a top performer, uh, at that job, those are table stakes, just to get a chance to interview for the next job, however, the skills to do the next job. Well, probably do not relate to your current job. So for example, in my case, a top performing sales rep does not mean you're going to be a good manager. It doesn't mean you're going to be a good leader. And that's the typical path for a lot of people. If you want to go up from like individual to manager, to director, to VP, which the path that I was on and that I went. Um, so while you have to be excellent at your job on the side, you've got to be working on developing the skills to be excellent at the next job. And those are two completely separate things. They're really hard to do. Um, it takes time, it takes effort, it takes worth work ethic. It takes perseverance and resilience so that when you then go for those jobs, the next job you can prove that you've been working on that while at the same time, uh, excelling at your current role. Uh, also I would say the people who are making those decisions above you, who are going to hire the managers and the directors and the VPs, they usually hire people that they like and trust. And so I think it's, it's a worthy investment of your time to, to begin developing relationships with people in positions that make decisions. So whether that's at your current company and other companies, that was a big part of what I was, what I was doing as well, was working to meet others who are in decision-making positions. And every job that I got promoted to it's somebody who knew me at least a year prior to the job coming open, probably actually now I think about it multiple years. Wow. Uh, before the job came open, so they knew me, they knew my work, they knew what I had done. We had built a relationship. And so when the job came open, I had a better shot of getting it because I wasn't some random person they'd never heard of. So there's a lot that goes into it. Most people don't like that aspect of it that they, that like while they might kind of call it a good old boys network. Um, but the, the reality is, think of yourself. If you're in a decision-making position, if you know someone that is a very high performer and you've known them for years, so you trust them and you believe in them, you're probably more apt to choose them over somebody that you don't know at all over the unknown, even if their resumes great. And they did well in the interview process. So if you're earlier in your career, think about that, who are those people, uh, work to develop a genuine relationship with them. And I'd say you go to them with thoughtful questions to try to learn from them. Um, and then in, you know, to kill it in your current role, uh, to give yourself the best chance. And if you kind of combine all those things, uh, it'll probably, it'll probably shake out in your favor. Now. I want for jobs many times and didn't get them. Um, but, but I think, I think that practice was also really good. I had to kind of figure out what I believed in and what I thought so that when I got into the room to interview for leadership roles, I had some sense of an idea of what I was talking about versus at times when I'd go in there and, you know, I'm, I'm trying to say the things that I think they want me to say, and they can see through that really quickly. It's like, well, this guy hasn't thought it through enough. So I think all those things go into it. And, and, and then, you know, when the time is right and the people are right, then it gives you, it gives you a shot to, to get those jobs.
Speaker 2:So you talked about making the jump from individual performer to manager to leader, and you actually wrote a book recently on the subject called welcome to management, how to grow from top performer to excellent leader. Um, before we dive into a little bit about that journey, can you just talk about why did you write this book and what do you want leaders to get out of it?
Speaker 3:So, I, I, I wrote the book that I wanted to have when I got promoted. I got promoted young, um, 26 going on 27 and, uh, was a top sales performer in my company. Um, and that, that then again, was the table stakes to give me a chance to interview for the role to be, um, a leader of the team that I was on because the job then, uh, was open when my boss had gotten promoted to another role. And, um, I got the job part partially because I was good as an individual contributor partially because of my background in sports. And I was, uh, in leadership roles on the football field as a quarterback and team captain. And, but not really for anything that, that they'd seen me do at my company, other than be a high performer as an individual contributor. Um, and so what happened then when I got promoted is I was horrible. I had no idea what I was doing. I made mistake after mistake. Uh, I think there was an immense amount of luck involved for my team to somehow, uh, do well. Um, I got a few lucky hires that those guys kind of help build my team. Um, but I, I, my goal for the book initially was just to help people not make the same mistakes that I did when I got promoted. I want someone who's earlier in their career who wants to get promoted, read the book to, hopefully it helps to prepare them. I want someone who's newly promoted to read it. I want senior leaders to read it and, and give it to people who are new managers. So hopefully it can help them be better and not make the same mistakes that I did. And, um, and I think that's that, that makes it much more personal to me. It's my story to tell it's as my publisher McGraw-Hill hill told me like, this is right, the book that is unique to you, that only you can tell based upon your experiences and your learnings. And so I tried to combine what I've learned in my podcast, as well as my own experiences. And that's, that's kind of how the first book got put together. Yeah. I
Speaker 2:Wanted to touch about the age old question of managers and management and leadership, uh, or managers and leader of the same leadership, the same thing. Uh, can you have one without the other, I'm just curious your view on this.
Speaker 3:What do you think? What do I think?
Speaker 2:Uh, I think, I think they're different. Um, but I do think, uh, someone told me once that management as the path to leadership, and I do feel like that if you're going to grow, especially in a corporate organization or nonprofit management has to be, you have to be a manager at some point along the way, it's actually learning those skill sets. I think eventually the management can be delegated, but I do feel like every young leader should have a management experience. So yeah, that's how I've been processing the question lately.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I, I agree. And I think, you know, management is, is there are certain constraints within, uh, within an organization, within a business, within a nonprofit and in managing, you've got to figure out how to manage within those constraints. Um, uh, I think that's a skill to develop. Um, and I think from a leadership perspective, more higher strategic, visionary type aspects of what it means to be a leader. Um, initially may not really have that, or you may not even need that for a frontline management role for your first one. Like it can help, but you're also probably going to have to get in line with the vision and the mission of the people above you. Um, so it's good to learn it as you're going, but you're, you're really going to be managing the day to day and understand the metrics that matter and holding people accountable to those and holding yourself accountable to those. I think that's more of what the management is and from a leadership perspective. Now, the other, the other thing about it is I think there are management titles. There are no leadership titles, so leaders, anybody can be a leader regardless of title from any place in an organization. Um, leaders are about people choosing to commit to when they otherwise could P could choose to commit to somebody else. So that's really what leadership is all about is like who is, is actively choosing to commit to you. This is why the line compliance can be commanded, but commitment can not, is a big part of my book. And one of the most highlighted sections, because we think about any team you've ever been on, like from a title perspective, you'll comply with somebody. If you need the job and you need the paycheck and the benefits, and you want to be the, you comply to their orders or whatever they're saying, because you don't want to get fired commitments a choice though, you have to choose to commit to somebody. And I think the, the excellent leaders in the world are the ones who live in a way that they, they inspire others to choose, to commit to them, versus just complying to whatever they said, because they don't want to get fired.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Uh, in the book you talk about, uh, every leader needs an operating framework. Can you talk about what that is and why leaders need one?
Speaker 3:Yeah. I was, uh, recording with a number of, of operators within a business that, um, kept using that word or that phrase framework. And I was kind of staring at them. They were like, I don't even know what these talking about. I remember vividly, remember Ryan called back who was a CEO and founder of circle up. And he kept saying that phrase and he kept using and telling me the way he thought, like, God, I don't even know what to say to this guy. And so after that, I really kind of want to work on like, what's my framework, what's my desire. What type of type of leader do I want to be? And I'm kind of like really just pulled from a lot of different areas. And, and for, for me, um, the phrase that really struck, struck me that, that I think I really love came from Charlie Munger, Warren Buffett's business partner, where he said, you know, you should, you should strive to be a learning machine. You should strive to be a little bit wiser when you go to bed than you were when you woke up. And I thought, that's what I love. So my whole mission is to become a learning machine and it, and I created kind of four parts to it. It's not fully original, but it's mine, um, for this sake. And that is the F the first part of that four-part framework for me on how to become and be a learning machine is I have to fuel my intake engine. And this, this is also the definition for me, have a great day, have a great day in this quest to be a learning machine. So the first part I need to fuel my intake engine, right? I gotta be reading books and listening to podcasts and meeting with mentors, really fueling the engine of what's coming in. So I can always be in this learning mode, but too, I can't just really, I can't just be the learner. I need to be a doer. I need to take from theory to practice. I need to put it into play. So if I, you know, let's say met with a mentor and that mentor gave me advice on running better meetings, I then have to take what he or she told me and put it into practice. So my next meeting, I'm going to experiment with what that person told me. And then the third step, I'm going to take a step back. I'm going to reflect, I'm going to pause. And I'm going to say what went well, what didn't from the experimentation that I did based upon the intake engine or the feedback or the, the, the knowledge that I'm gaining in here. And then I'm experimenting that I'm reflecting to see what worked, what didn't, what should I keep doing? What should I stop doing? And then the fourth part, and I think really important, and this is why I lean into public speaking. And other areas is the, one of the greatest tools in the world for learning is teaching. Think about any moment in your life, where you've had to give a presentation, a keynote speaker, guest lecture at a local university or whatever, you're meeting with a mentee, trying to help him or her. Think about the moments leading up to that. The, at the test, the presentation, whatever it is you're going to do, I would imagine if you have pride, you're going to do a lot of work to prepare, to get an idea of what you think you're going to work to gain clarity of your beliefs, of your thoughts, so that when you teach it, you're going to hopefully impact the people you're teaching in a positive way. And on top of that, you're going to receive feedback from them and the people who you are teaching to see what really resonated with them. So you have that prep process, then you deliver the teaching. Then you get the feedback that is a huge tool for learning. And so for me, those four things make up a great day, fueling the intake engine, being an experiment, or with what you're learning, reflect, analyze what worked and what didn't, what should you keep doing? What you just stop and then teaching it to somebody else. Those four things that that's how I work to become a learning machine. Yeah. So
Speaker 2:It talks about being a learning machine. Uh, I think myself included a lot of people listening to this, want to write a book you've written one, um, I'm just curious, what did you learn from writing this book about the writing process?
Speaker 3:So I, when I got, got the book deal from McGraw hill, I thought, well, this, I mean, I knew it was going to be hard. Writing books are hard. I know it's 60,000 words. It's a lot, but you don't like, I didn't fully know how little I knew about my topic until I tried to write a book about it. And I think, wow, you have a lot of thoughts in your mind. You think, you know what you're talking about, but then you try to, you try to get it from your head to the page, and then you look at it and you kind of hate yourself because it's not very good. And you got to go through so many edits and, and, and, and rewrites and edits and rewrites and back and forth. And so I just think when that's why I think for all leaders, a great skill and a great practice is, is, is to right. It doesn't have to be a book. I mean, I think you should, if you're in a leadership role, I think your team needs to know what you're thinking. So you should eat, whether you're just writing them emails or you're publishing on a, on a website, or you're writing a book, the process of getting the thoughts and ideas from your head to the page is, uh, is hard. And it will make you question yourself over and over and over. But then once you get it from here down to the page, you start gaining some clarity and belief and understanding, and it really increases your self-awareness and your awareness of what you're you kinda know and what you don't. And, um, and so that's why I would just encourage people in general. I think leaders effective leaders need to be very well read, and then it needed to be, they need to be good writers. They need to work on the craft of getting, getting the ideas from their head to the page, as well as great communicators with their teams. And one of the great ways to do that is to, is to write. So, uh, regardless of you're gonna write a book or whatever, get the, get the thoughts out from your head down to the page and, and work on crafting those messages to your team so that you can hopefully, you know, uh, inspire them in a different way, um, by just the written word, which can be pretty powerful if you get good at it. Yeah. Well, I'll include
Speaker 2:A link in the show notes for the book. I hope everyone will go buy a copy of that. Um, being that I also host my own podcast. I'd be foolish not to dive in and ask you questions about, uh, podcasting and interviewing, um, specifically when it comes to your, to podcasts for you. Um, I actually use your guests as a, as to help me fill my bucket list of people I want to interview. So, uh, uh, so thank you for that. You've had some incredible guests and I was listening to your interview with Carrie new Hoff and, um, you, your answer blew me away, so I don't want to want to ruin it for people, but can you talk about your process for getting a guest and the lengths that you're willing to go to, to get them? Cause, uh, I was just blown away.
Speaker 3:Uh, I don't remember what I told Carrie, but I'll just tell you how I get guess so maybe it'll be the same. Um, so there's a wide variety of how I get them, but I think, um, at the beginning stages, you know, there was there, it was a hundred percent cold outreach. Um, so sending cold emails, one of the, one of the helpful that I developed early in my career was when I was a, a sales executive at inside telephonic sales rep for Lexus nexus is, you know, we had to, um, smile and dial and make a bunch of phone calls every day to get ahold of prospects, to try to sell them our service. And we also had to learn email marketing and learn how to, um, write compelling cold emails to generate responses. And so, um, I've used some of those skills when reaching out to guests. And, um, I also understand, you know, use all the tools that my disposal, like my outlook calendar in order to make sure I'm following up. But in my case, I just try to be relentless, um, as, as not, and not annoying, um, as possible. So I will just continue to email and follow up and follow up and follow up as many times as it takes in order to get ahold of somebody. And, and I think to me, I'm just always on the lookout for people who I'm curious to learn more about their stories and them, and I want to have them on the show to, to really dig into those stories and ask them questions. So, um, yeah, I'm always on the lookout. I'm always willing to continue to follow up. I never take offense when somebody ignores me or says no, because they're busy, they got things going on. They're not thinking about me. It's not about me. It's no big deal. And I just, just keep at it. And I think, you know, one of the, uh, one of my, my good friends who I've hired at a few places to work on my sales teams, um, he's still crushing it right now. And one of the jobs I hired him in my last company. And, um, I was, I'm just like, if you had to like distill down your, your reason for why you crush it at every job, regardless of your sales territory, regardless of what you're selling, regardless of what company you're working for. He just like, I think I'm really good at following up. I always am on top of, on top of the follow-up, whether it's a current customer, a prospect or whatever it is, I just try to follow up, follow up, follow up, follow up, I'm respectful, but follow up. And I think, yeah, I kind of identify with that. I just try to always be, be following up with people, um, and keeping them in the loop as my show grows, maybe, Hey, it's worth it now. And, and, and some of these guys and girls who ignored me and didn't want to respond, or they said no, uh, three years later after a number of emails, maybe, maybe now's the time. And so that's, that's kinda how I still go. And it's different now because you know, the, the, the shows at a place where we're the opposite happens now where the PR people and the authors themselves, or the leaders themselves want to, they want to get some, um, get their name out there a little bit more or shine a light on whatever their initiative is, whether it's a book or their company. And so they typically then reach out to me and then I kind of just figure out, okay, who of these people are the ones I'm really curious about in order to do a lot of research on, um, in order to, to record with them. And so it's a, it's, it's a good mix now of, of incoming and outgoing, uh, requests for, to be on the show. And, and, uh, but that's a, that's a really important part as you know, uh, to make sure that those guests are good and can tell good stories that are, uh, have practical application for your, for your audience.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Can you give people an idea of how many emails you may typically send someone? I think this was a stat that like blew me away and I don't know if it was a one-time thing or an average, but I'm just curious.
Speaker 3:I mean, I I'll go on forever. I go on forever.
Speaker 2:So if someone says, no, you'll continue to follow
Speaker 3:Up. Of course. Yeah. I just don't believe in, no, I just believe in, not yet. So, I mean, in my early sales days, it was always, uh, there was no such thing as a, no, it was just, and even today, when talking about from a business perspective with, with the people I work with, people say, well, how much revenue was lost in that month or that quarter meeting, like you had a proposal and you didn't get it. And I don't use that language. I use, I say, well, 20 K and not yet, you know, I just think like, that's just how I view it. And I don't know, maybe I'm delusional, but, um, in a, in a way, like, I think I just, I, I understand that the, that they're just not, they're not really thinking about me. And so I just don't take it personal. My dad told me a long time ago and I asked him like, what do you think of these pants? How do these look when I was going to like a banquet? He's like, they don't care about your pants. They care about their pants. And so I just try to take that mentality towards cold outreach and cold emails, if they deleted or they ignore me, or they say, no, I'm just going to keep going. And, um, yeah, I, I don't, I don't, I don't see much downside from that. Um, as long as I'm respectful, you know, and I have genuine updates under is copy and paste the same note. Like I try to give genuine notes as long as I do that. I feel like the upside is much greater than the potential downside of somebody getting annoyed.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And can you talk to me a little bit about the art of interviewing? How have you grown in 400 plus interviews, uh, as an interviewer?
Speaker 3:So my prep process has changed from scripting questions to scripting potential topics. And, um, so whereas before at the early, probably first couple of hundred, I would script out questions to ask a person. Now I will have, my notes are a series of interesting ideas or topics or things they have said or written about. And then I can take, I can look at those and, and formulate a question within the conversation based upon those topics, but I've also found Doug and I'm sure you've, you've picked up on this for w for your show. The best questions are almost never the initial ones. They're always the followup questions. And so it's really about being an active listener, um, picking up on, on maybe emotional parts or really interesting aspects of a story and diving deeper and going to the next level. I think that's where, like the good stuff can come out. It doesn't work all the time. Nothing does, but I, and I think it also is more enjoyable for the guests, because maybe they're there, they're getting into areas where they haven't gone very much. Like I, I interview people who have been interviewed by a lot of people in some cases, so they can get tired of their own, their own stuff. Um, and so if I can get them out of that kind of interview mode and into more of a conversation, uh it's it seems like they enjoy it. And when they enjoyed, it's always a better episode for the listener. So there's a lot of good things that happened when my guests seem to have fun and they seem to enjoy what we're talking about. They're going to tell their friends, and they're also just going to be better guests for the listener. And then we have a chance to develop a relationship too, which I think is a great bonus out of doing this. Yeah.
Speaker 2:You mentioned your dad's advice to you. Um, I've been following you for a while and it's clear that your dad has made a huge impact on your life and your family seems really, really awesome by the way, just from a, from a distance, can you just talk about that your dad's impact on your life and maybe, you know, a lesson or two from your dad that, uh, that influences the way you live?
Speaker 3:Well, it's just funny. If you talk to me long enough, I, I, you, you can't help, but hear him coming out and me, uh, I try to give him credit for the things I learned from him, although I'm sure I'm stealing pretty much, uh, much more than the times I give him credit. No, I th I think from a parenting perspective, you know, my mom and dad have, have just been the incredible models for us. They've been supportive. They showed us what it's like to have a loving marriage. They show us what it's like to be a supportive, but not snowplow slash slash helicopter parent. Right? They'd let us fail, let us figure things out. They let us kind of face some, some difficult things we had to work through on our own, but they, but we know they're there if we need them. So I think that's what they've always done. My dad was, you know, a long time award-winning sales leader, he led a thousand person sales force, as he's written multiple books about the profession of selling he's, um, started from a very, um, modest means, I would say, uh, growing up and then built up a really incredible career for himself to now he's in a place where he advises consults. He's on some boards, but he's essentially retired. He plays golf most days, and he answers whenever I call or wherever, whenever I need something. So I just say it was like, he, he, he's the, uh, he's the one who told me that your presence is required as a leader. And what he meant by that is, you know, as a dad who tries to always was putting the coins in the machine, when we were at the batting cages to rebound, when we're shooting baskets to catch our passes in the backyard, run with this play with us present, just be there, be present. And I think from a leadership perspective, I try to do the same as a dad and, and, and, and, and in business, it's, it's really the same thing. Like your presence is required. Like try to be there for your people, even if it's not physically now with, with, with what's going on in the world, how can you be present for your people when you're, when you're in a one-on-one meeting? How, like, are you, is your phone on the desk? Are you looking at it? Are you actually present with them? Uh, is the TV on, like, I've, I've experienced all these things with a leader and they may not even realize they're doing it, but to me it's disrespectful. It's not being present. So when I'm with you, one-on-one, I am all like, when I said yes to this dog, I'm like, I'm all in on this for our hour together. Um, because if I don't think I can do that, then I'm going to say no, and we're not going to do it because it's disrespectful to you. And I think from a leadership perspective and, and things I learned when my dad, my, both my parents, my, my mom and dad, when they're with us, they're present. And they, they they've shown us that that's how you show respect for people. That's how you care for people. And when you do that, I think the odds increase of, of, of the people that you're working with, or your family responding better than if you're kind of 60% of yourself as there. And, uh, if you're all there, I think your odds are, are much better. Yeah. Thanks for
Speaker 2:Sharing those lessons. Um, I know aside from your parents, sports have played a big part in your life as well. Uh, and actually, I didn't notice until I listen in your interview with Carrie, but I'm from Pittsburgh. So obviously a big Steeler fan. Um, but I'm just curious, can you talk about what you've learned from sports and then for all of those listening here in Pittsburgh, you've actually competed against some significant athletes in our city. Can you talk about that and what you learned from that experience?
Speaker 3:Well, I mean, sports are, are, uh, growing up. I was again, fortunate to, um, get to play everything. So basketball, baseball, football, swimming, ping pong, tenants', whatever we played at all, like formally on teams was mainly basketball, baseball, football, and swimming. And, um, as, as we grew up, um, still played all the sports were playing year round and fortunately developed interest in football. Uh, I played quarterback, um, from, from a number of colleges where I was offered scholarship, but I elected to go to Miami university here in, in, in Oxford, Ohio and the Mid-American conference. And shortly after I committed to go to Miami Ben Roethlisberger, uh, now Pittsburgh zone, I would say from Findlay, Ohio, but now I think Pittsburgh probably year round. Um, Ben Ben is my age where the same class, same position. Uh, we came in together and for two years just kind of battled it out. And, um, during our second year, uh, at Miami together is when the, the late great Terry Hepner, uh, pulled us aside. And I remember during the game, when we were playing at the university of Iowa and looked those both in the eye as we were both getting beat up, because we were still rotating at the time and said, uh, he's going to be the starter. You're going to be the backup. You're not going to go in unless he gets hurt. I can't have you guys both getting hurt at the same time. And, you know, it's a, it's a devastating moment for me to have lost, um, that I've been a starter on every team of every sport I ever played, shortstop point guard quarterback, including my freshman year in high school, on the varsity team. And so to have that happen, it's the first time ever that I had lost a starting job in any sport at any time in my life. And so it was just devastating, but I think that the great learning from it is, um, sometimes, uh, you can put everything you've got into something and it doesn't matter. Uh, the world doesn't necessarily care. Uh, somebody else will still be better than you. It's not like the coach made a poor decision. He made the correct decision, obviously. And, uh, but that, that didn't like ease the pain of the time. But when you have to go through those moments and figure out, like, what am I going to do? Because I can there's, I can try as hard as I want. I can work as hard as I want. It doesn't matter. That person is better than me. And, uh, I think it's just good to learn that sometimes because, and then, then the, then decide, how do you want to respond? How do you want to respond in those moments? And, uh, and for me, I didn't want to be a backup. I didn't want to play another position, which were both options on the table. Um, I transferred to Ohio university, uh, I didn't want to transfer. I still, still to this day, I have some of my best friends are from Miami. Um, but I started all over at OU and fortunately I got to play for a few years elected captain, and it gave me the opportunity to play after college. So play professionally. So, um, I would say that's, that's, that's how I chose to respond. And that response then gave me more opportunity to keep playing and be the guy I wanted to be a starting quarterback in division one football. And that's what I did. So, um, but, but tons of learning from, from coaches, from setbacks, from adversity, from losing, uh, I draw from all of that now on a daily basis,
Speaker 2:You're a learning machine. So I thank you for sharing that story. I didn't know the whole story. And, uh, it's so powerful how you responded to that. I want to transition to the rest of our time into what I call the lightning round. Just a bunch of fun questions I ask every interview. And the first one is what's the best advice you've ever received and who gave it to you?
Speaker 3:Um, I think I was a freshman in high school. My dad sat my brother and me down. My younger brother who's three years after me, but was, he was he's really good. And he said, if you guys choose to do anything of significance, um, you're going to have people who praise you and you're gonna have people who criticize. You just, just don't get too high from the praise and don't get too low from the criticism work to stay composed and even keeled, um, through all of that praise and criticism, if you choose. And if you don't, if you can't handle praise and you can't handle criticism, then you can't really go for, go for big things. So you guys kind of have to make that choice and, and, and, and keep a level head amongst all that. And I would say that left a mark on both of us, because we've, we've, we've both faced the praise and criticism because we try to do big things. And I think that, um, that's just helpful advice for anybody. If you can, if you can actually put it in, put it into action.
Speaker 2:If you could put a quote on a billboard for everyone to read, what would it say?
Speaker 3:Um, so I think the opposite of, I got to figure out how to paraphrase this. So I'm going to workshop this with you real quick. And I'm thinking about this on the fly. You may have sent me these questions ahead of time, and I didn't read them because I think it's better if you don't. Um, yeah, I think the opposite of judgment is curiosity. And so I would, I would urge people to approach people with curiosity versus judgment and your life will probably be better. Right. Um, get to know people, be curious, be interested in them versus trying to be interesting. I think, um, you can maybe paraphrase that and put it on a billboard and that might be good.
Speaker 2:What's the best purchase in the last year that you've made for a hundred dollars or less? Maybe I should have read the question. This one always stumps people.
Speaker 3:I need to come back to that one. I can't think of that. I can only have one right now. I don't want to just say I don't want to give something that's stupid. So I can't think of that one right now. What's a,
Speaker 2:What's a book that it's impacted you either recently or all time that you find yourself giving away most often, or that you would give
Speaker 3:Away. Uh, the Wright brothers by David McCullough, um, is, uh, so they're from Dayton, Ohio. That's where I live. That's where I'm born and raised. Um, their bicycle shop is right down the street and they, they they're, they're just, it's a remarkable story of people who were not nearly as supported as many others who were trying to create the first ever flying machine. And then with their sister, Catherine, um, they did it, you know, they, they, they kind of were against the odds. They were under underfunded under supported, and yet they just kept at it. They kept that they kept that they got on the kitty Hawk, they'd go on the sand dunes. They faced terrible adversity. People died as they're trying to get their flying machine up and stay afloat. And, and yet these dudes also would spend regular, um, set amount of time standing on the dudes, watching birds, try to mimic and build their, their wings of their airplane. Like, like the wings of a bird to keep it afloat. I just think, wow, I love it. And so this right here is actually the, the patent, uh, the print of the patent. I'm pointing for audio listeners to the patent of the first ever flying machine by Orville and Wilbur Wright. Wow.
Speaker 2:That's really cool. Um, other than your own, do you have a favorite podcast or two that you'd recommend?
Speaker 3:Um, I love like I'm looking at them right now. I like, I would say business wars is a good one. I like narrow those. There's kind of the people who have super high production value. So I'd say business wars is really good as well as, um, my friend, Brian, Bob Gardner, I got to meet him a few times. He has the office deep dive, which is a really good one. And then, I don't know. I think Scott Galloway as a character, I listen to, I listen to a lot of what Scott does when it comes to, uh, a personality. And then Brian Koppelman, the moment he's, I think one of the premier interviewers in the world. Hmm. What do
Speaker 2:You wish people knew about your journey that they may not know?
Speaker 3:Uh, I mean, I have 400 some episodes out there. I think people know a lot now if they listen, um, I just, I don't think people fully understand like, everything that goes into to consistently shipping work every week for, for 400 some in a row. Uh, I think they think like it's machine, like, or like you just kinda get a system and go, and there's just a lot. There's just a lot that goes into it. My wife could tell them like all the things that go into cause she sees me working. But I just think for, for, for, for all and you know, this, but for the stuff that you have to do, there's just a lot behind the scenes that you got to do to make it, to make it good. Yeah. You've
Speaker 2:Been asking questions. You're a master at it for a long time. Is there a favorite go-to question that you always ask maybe in every interview or every time you get a lunch with a great leader,
Speaker 3:I'm, I'm most curious. So, um, about what they found to be commonalities among leaders who have sustained excellence. So like w as they have to, to look into and think of the commonalities, I'm curious to hear what people think those things are. So what are the actions and behaviors and mindsets of leaders who have sustained excellence. And those two words are very important to me. I mean, um, the, the people who can perform at excellent levels and sustain it over time, I am curious to learn about how people have done that and what they do and how they think. And so that's a question I ask a lot of people. Yeah. And what have you found
Speaker 4:In your 400 plus interviews as the answer to that question?
Speaker 3:I think, um, if I had a name of a few things, first, they're extremely thoughtful and reflective people. Um, they, um, are willing to block time to actually think, um, and reflect. And I think that also increases levels of awareness, which is a very important quality in a person like a self-awareness and spacial awareness and awareness of others. The it's really important. I think they act with intention and purpose. They don't wander haphazardly around the world, just this crossing their fingers and hoping for the best they, they, the, the act based upon their thoughts and reflections with intention and purpose behind everything that they do. There's a specific reason behind the things they say and do. And then you have a bias for action. They, um, don't just sit back and talk about it. They go and be about it. They go and do it. There's a difference between talkers and doers and, and I like the doers. I want people who are going to go out and do it. And so I'd say those are, those are probably a few things that people who I found that sustained excellence seemed to exhibit those behaviors. What's your biggest leadership pet peeve. Um, so when you asked this question, I'm guessing like everybody has this thought bubble that pops up and there's a person that that's. And so I immediately can picture this guy and, uh, I'm not going to say his name, but I was, I'm just trying to pick of the like seven different things that he did. Wow. And, and that's, that's what I'm thinking of. I would say, uh, just selfish and didn't care about others. And so that is a huge pet peeve. If a leader is very selfish and doesn't care about other people, that's a rough one. You're probably going to, I feel like you're going to struggle. I don't know if you don't, if you, the people and you don't really care about them, that's going to be, that's going to be a tough go.
Speaker 2:I love that. No one has ever at least said out loud, I'm sure they've done it, but no one has said out loud that they had a person in mind in their thought bubble. So, yeah, you're absolutely right. I never, that's beautiful. Um, what's something you've done maybe crossed off your bucket list that you think everyone should do,
Speaker 3:Uh, swim in lake Tahoe and the Adriatic sea. I've got to swim in both of those bodies of water. I, I, I was in Croatia at the time off the coast of Croatia. There are other countries I would imagine that are there. I'm not my job. Isn't great. But that's where I was for our speaking event. And I go to lake Tahoe every summer. Uh, both bodies of water were very cold, but very cool. Uh, so I'd say I love to swim. Um, so I would say if you can get, or just dunk yourself into those bodies of water, that'd be a cool thing to do. I've, I've been, I feel fortunate to have to, to, to have done that.
Speaker 2:Is there anything still on your bucket list that you haven't crossed off that you want to do? Do you have a bucket list? I do.
Speaker 3:I don't. So I'm curious, like, what are some things that are on a bucket list? Maybe I should make one. Yeah. So,
Speaker 2:So like, I want to visit all the major national parks. There's too many national parks to visit all of them. So that's on the bucket list. So I crossed them off. Um, I want to attend every major, uh, tennis event. And so I've done the U S open and I've done a Wimbledon, so I want to hit the Australian and the French open up. So there's events like that. I want to attend to super bowl all the major sporting events. Um, those are some examples.
Speaker 3:What are like, uh, what national parks have you gone to so far? Yeah,
Speaker 2:If I had to rank them, Banff in Canada is absolutely beautiful Yosemite. Um, my wife and I go to, uh, Acadia national park every year, we got married and it's up in Maine. It's beautiful there. Um, when
Speaker 3:You go to these national parks, what do you do? Hike walk. Yeah. We're
Speaker 2:Hikers and bike, if we can. So, uh, I would say bucket list trip, like we loved when we did Yosemite, we kind of, we did a city. We spent a few days in San Francisco, biked all around the city of love that. And then we spent probably five days in Yosemite did all the major hikes you could do. And then we went to Napa valley and just hung out a few days there, like that. That's like the ultimate vacation for us. So a little bit of city national park, like to relax for awhile and hike.
Speaker 3:Would you, would you be willing to send me a note after we're done here of like, I've, I've, I'm terrible at this, but I think I want to be better at that exact thing on your bucket list when it comes to, I've done a lot of sporting things, but when it comes to national parks, like, I think if you tall too, I think of other, I haven't done any of that. I like to, to get more intentional about that. What do you do that? Yeah, I'd love to, and I can send you the agenda is that, uh, that would be awesome. That'd be like the, the, like in order and yeah, I think that'd be really cool to at least just to start like getting after that. Cause yeah, I haven't been very good about that. Okay. Do you have kids?
Speaker 2:I do there. I think they're younger than yours. Do they go with you? W I have a, five-year-old a three-year-old and then a three months old. So we have, um, I forgot what the company Scott off send it to you. They have this called backpacks where they can just go on your back and that's awesome. Yeah. So our five-year-old's getting to the point where she could walk, which is good, but I'm also like she gonna, you know, bail halfway through that. So we have to figure that part out, but, uh, the backpacks have been huge.
Speaker 3:That's cool. Okay. Yeah. So I'd love for you to send me, send me any info you have on, on the national parks and like from your PR I know I can Google that stuff, but I'm only it like from your experience. I think that'd be cool. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. We've done a lot of research on that. Um, a few more questions. If you can go back and have coffee with your 20 year old self, what would you tell him?
Speaker 3:Um, I would tell him, uh, focus on building relationships now, uh, and don't be so into yourself and selfish. Um, think about other people, be interested in other people, uh, build meaningful, mutually beneficial relationships. Now don't, you're an idiot and you're going to wait like 10 years. Don't do it now. That's what I would say. I meant
Speaker 2:To ask this a minute ago, but do you have a bucket list of people you'd like to interview and who's at the top of that list since, uh, you've interviewed quite a yeah.
Speaker 3:Dave Matthews is number one. Wow. There we go. Um, I think, uh, yeah, I think he'd be cool. I'd like to do a panel with, uh, I'd be sitting in the middle and on one side it would be, uh, Tom Brady and Peyton Manning. And on the other side would be Aaron Rogers and Patrick, my homes. So that'd be one with a live audience. And then, uh, you know, probably like another one that would be me in the middle and on one side Elon Musk and the other side, Jeff Bezos, just to maybe see if they fight and then I'd like to have a one-on-one with Oprah. I think that'd be neat. Wow.
Speaker 2:That's awesome, man. Well, I look forward to having all of those things accomplished off of your okay. Um, last question, uh, would be, what do you want your legacy to be? What do you want people to remember you for?
Speaker 3:Uh, I hope people, uh, I guess would, would, would think that I, I, I follow my curiosity and obsessions with great rigor with the intention to, to help other people. Um, you know, I, I think that'd be cool if they said, Hey, uh, he seemed to be really curious in and care to get to know people and their stories and through those the w through the actions of, of following that curiosity, that it, it helped a lot of people. I think that would be, that'd be pretty cool. Anything else you want to leave leaders with today? No. I mean, I, I, Doug, I appreciate the, uh, the prep and you being, uh, so good at this. It makes it a lot more fun for me. So
Speaker 1:I'm good.
Speaker 2:Hey leader, thank you so much for listening to my conversation with Ryan Hawk. I hope that you enjoyed it as much as I did, and you can find ways to connect with Ryan and links to everything that we discussed in the show notes@lthreeleadership.org forward slash 2 79. And as always, if it added value to your life, it would mean the world to me. If you would share your key takeaways on social media or send us less than a three to five other leaders that you know, it would add value to again, that helps us grow our audience and reach more leaders. So thank you in advance for that and leader. I say this all the time, but I believe it. If you want to 10 X your growth this year, then I really want to challenge you to either launch or join an L three leadership mastermind group. Mastermind groups have been the greatest source of growth in my life over the last six years. If you're unfamiliar with what a mastermind group is, there's simply small groups of leaders, usually six to 12 that meet together for at least one year in order to help each other grow, achieve their goals and to do life together. If you're interested in learning more, you can go to LT leadership.org forward slash masterminds. And as always, I like to end every episode with a quote. And today I'll quote Dave Ramsey. He said this, he said, I think it is pretty cool that you can just decide to change your life, make today the day leader, Laura and I love you so much. We believe in you keep leading, keep making a difference, and we'll talk to you next episode.