The L3 Leadership Podcast with Doug Smith
The L3 Leadership Podcast is focused on leadership development and personal growth. We are obsessed with helping you grow to your maximum potential and maximizing the impact of your leadership. We release a new episode every week to help you grow and develop as a leader. You will hear a mix of personal lessons from our Founder, Doug Smith, and conversations Doug has with world-class leaders from around the world. Doug interviews leaders like Pittsburgh Steelers Coach, Mike Tomlin, Pittsburgh Penguins Coach, Mike Sullivan, Tony Horton, Liz Wiseman, Brian Tome, John Mark Comer, Mark Batterson, Ryan Hawk, Nona Jones, Claude Silver, Ken Coleman, Christy Wright, Rachel Cruze, Mark Cole, and many more. Our hope is that you will not only learn great leadership lessons but that you will catch great leadership from the lives of the leaders that we expose you to.
The L3 Leadership Podcast with Doug Smith
Giving Firm Feedback in a Fragile World with Jeff Hancher
In this episode of the L3 Leadership Podcast, Doug Smith interviews Jeff Hancher, author of 'Firm Feedback in a Fragile World.' Jeff shares his journey from growing up in poverty to a successful 24-year career, emphasizing the pivotal moments shaped by firm feedback and strong leadership.
00:00 Welcome and Introduction
00:35 The Journey to Writing a Book
01:14 Overcoming Personal Struggles
03:05 The Impact of Leadership
05:16 The Role of Faith and Mentors
06:40 The Importance of Firm Feedback
10:00 Transforming Visions into Results
12:54 Balancing Love and Accountability in Leadership
14:47 The Power of Feedback
24:20 Building a Leadership Brand
25:50 Speed Limits and Accountability
26:59 Setting Realistic Expectations
28:26 Techniques for Accountability
32:27 The Importance of Time in Leadership
35:34 The Fragility of Feedback
38:56 The Journey to Writing a Book
44:23 Entrepreneurial Challenges and Advice
48:06 Connecting with Jeff and Final Thoughts
The L3 Leadership Podcast is sponsored by Andocia Marketing Solutions. Andocia exists to bring leaders’ visions to life. Visit https://andocia.com to learn more.
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01.506) Jeff Hanscher, welcome to the L3 Leadership Podcast. I can't believe, you know, I'm 400 plus episodes in and have not had you on. And we need to do more work together, my brother. We were just talking. I love how God is using you and what you're doing in the whole leadership space.
Jeff Hancher (00:14.966) The feeling is mutual as well. know, all that you've done with your conferences, how you're pouring into leaders, how you're pouring into your community. Man, it inspires me to be better. So I'm glad we connected on the show and I'm sure the future there's going to be a lot more connection to have.
Doug Smith (00:32.334) Yeah, well, I want to dive in. I'm super excited for you. Your first book is out, Firm Feedback in a Fragile World. And there's a really cool story on how you even got to publish this book we'll get into. But I just want to start off, know, out of the thousands of topics you could have covered, we were even talking about earlier, you could have potentially written a book on your story because you have such a great one. But you chose this. Why and what what problem are you trying to solve in the world?
Jeff Hancher (00:55.444) Well, I chose this because it's, man, maybe it's the thing I'm most passionate about. I'm super passionate about leadership. And the reason I am is because I'm a product of leadership and I'm a product of firm feedback. You know, I grew up in gross poverty. I go to the military, I transition. I think I'm going to go to college on the GI Bill, but I get the call that I had gotten so many times from my dad, which is they're sending mom home in hospice. He's having a leg amputated. I put college on the back burner. I go home. I get the nurses all set up. I need a seasonal job just to help pay some bills, help pay, help them pay rent. And so I went and got a newspaper, which is how we got jobs back in the day. And I didn't have a lot of skill. So I applied to be a truck driver. and I was, hired to be a truck driver at Centos uniform company in 1996. And, what I thought was going to be a seasonal job ended up being a 24 year career. And I love the truck driver job. mean, Doug, was making $21,000 a year. I was killing it. I mean, killing it. I bought, I bought a new Chevy truck. mean, life was good, but I saw these, people running around with shiny shoes and suits and ties and.
Doug Smith (02:07.458) Let's go.
Jeff Hancher (02:18.922) They drove fancy cars like Honda Accords. And I'm like, I want to know who these people are. Well, these were salespeople. So I, I ended up becoming a salesperson and I'm having a pretty good rookie year. They're telling me I'm on president's club pace. And, about halfway through the year, I was going to my first sales call one morning and my dad calls and says, you need to get to the hospital. Now I'd gotten that call a lot, but today it was different today. was the last time that I would get the hold and see my mom and she passes. And it devastated me and I mean rocked me. I was in a deep depression. My attitude was poor. I lost motivation. But prior to that, I had a sales manager that did things like took me in the bathroom and taught me how to tie a windsor knot. He knew a little bit about my background. He taught me what caller stays were. He took me to Joseph A Bank and
Doug Smith (02:52.59) Hmm.
Jeff Hancher (03:16.16) told me the fashion of belt and shoes need to match and the difference between a sport coat and a suit. You know, I grew up poor. I didn't know anything. And this is the same sales manager that would keep me after hours and teach me sales scripts and feel, felt, found, to overcome objections and ride with me in the car. And now here I am having a good rookie year and my life crumbles and falls apart and I'm ready to quit. I'm ready to give up. I don't have any motivation. He let this go on for about two weeks and he pulled me into his office. And the first words out of his mouth was this, enough's enough. I've given you time to grieve. You have an 18 month old son and you want to have a family. And you've told me that one of your motivations is to make sure that your kids never experienced the life that you had. So you have two choices. You can get your head back on straight and become the person I know that you can be, or you won't be on my team. You have 24 hours to decide.
Doug Smith (03:53.998) Hmm.
Jeff Hancher (04:15.946) Now, after that day, Doug, I got promoted 10 times. I started my own company and I often look back and wonder if I didn't get that firm feedback, would I be who I am today? And now it's become my life's mission to teach leaders to do what he did for me because there's literally lives in the balance and leadership is a high calling.
Doug Smith (04:19.608) Ha ha. 41.368) Wow. Well, thank you for sharing your story. And we have very similar stories, actually. And I'm curious, you know, I've heard this and I've said this often that, you know, kids who grew up with backgrounds like we had or circumstances that we had, often the only way that they actually get out is if someone shows them another way, you know? And it sounds like that's absolutely been the case for you. It certainly was the case for me. And is there anything you want to say? Was he the only person that did that?
Jeff Hancher (05:00.907) Yes.
Doug Smith (05:08.207) I'm just curious, were there other people that showed you glimpses of who you could be? I love hearing parts of that,
Jeff Hancher (05:12.168) Numerous. man. Yeah. And I write about a lot of them in the book, to honor them. I use their names when I'm honoring them, the ones that I learned what not to do. I don't use their real name. but you can learn a lot from a bad leader, right? but, but yeah, you know, between, you know, being introduced to my faith journey, you know, and faith leaders in my life, but also business leaders, you know, here's a kid that
Doug Smith (05:23.886) Hahaha Absolutely.
Jeff Hancher (05:42.315) You know, one of my chores was cutting squares out of tin coffee cans and pop riveting them to the floor of our car. I didn't know business jargon. I didn't know. I had nothing to model after my dad never worked. My mom never worked. I didn't have anything, but there were leaders that came across my path that saw potential and poured everything they had into helping me through, you know, big deposits and big withdrawals, both and striking that balance. of earning the right to give the feedback. And literally, Doug, I stand before you and the listener today to tell you, short of my faith and the leaders that have been placed in my life, I am not who I am. Those are the things, and there have been numerous leaders that have stepped in and supported me, whether directly or indirectly as mentors, and it's changed my life.
Doug Smith (06:37.91) Yeah. And I certainly want to get into giving firm feedback, but something I want to point out and admire you for, because again, it sounds like similar. I had a leader like that as well, Larry Betancourt, who basically made me draw a line in the sand and said, Hey, this is it. Like, I can't let you continue to lead in the way you're leading and live the lifestyle you're living. So what are you going to do? And when that firm feedback comes, we have a choice, right? Like I could have easily had a pity party for myself or said like, who are you? You don't know what I'm going through. and gone the other way and we're not having this conversation today. What is it about you that allowed you to receive that feedback and not have a pity party or get grumpy or say, what does that guy know? Because I see so many leaders who get, they receive feedback and it destroys them and they go the other way.
Jeff Hancher (07:24.648) Yeah, and that's a I love that question, Doug, because I am not a likely candidate to receive feedback. Well, you know, I was hurt. I was discarded. I had a very hard shell of an exterior. My heart was hardened. I didn't take anything from anybody. Don't tell me what to do. I was the infamous stray dog. You know you you can imagine the picture that you see this stray dog Along the road and you can see its rib cage. It's near death's door it's it's it's hair is a mess and You you feel this compassion and you want to save the dog So what do you do you get out of your car and say hey skippy jump in the car? Everything is gonna be fine and the dog just jumps in no
Doug Smith (08:18.626) Hahaha
Jeff Hancher (08:19.454) Matter of fact, you go to the dog and you go to try to help it and what's it do? It bites you. And you're like, hey pal, settle down. I'm just here to help. I was that dog. I was ready to bite anybody. Why? Because I had been hurt. But here's what we do for the stray dog. When it's not listening to us, hey pal, I'm here to help, we start to show it, not tell it. We give it some treats. We lay down a blanket. We change our posture. We give it more treats. We start to develop a level of rapport. And then slowly over time, what happens is the dog gets in the car. But that's just the beginning, because then we have to earn the trust. This is what those leaders did to me. Because if we just go in screaming bloody murder, I'm here to help, I'm here to help. Go faster, do more. That might not be the answer. And we can be justified as leaders with our head on the pillow saying, hey, listen, I did all I could. They don't want to hear it. They don't want to listen. No, we have to earn the right. And we do that by capturing the hearts and minds of people. When we capture their heart, we can then earn the right to pour life into them. That's what leaders have done for me. That was the turning point, because I didn't have ears for nobody. I had a chip on my shoulder. I was ready to fight, literally and figuratively. I was just angry and didn't want to be told what to do. That's the answer. That's what transformed me. That's what I'm trying to help leaders to do.
Doug Smith (09:50.008) Wow. 58.242) Yeah, so good. And I think when people hear your story, you know, I'm thinking to myself, like, I want to be that kind of leader that poured into Jeff and that changed Jeff's life. And now he not only changed his life, he's writing a book about it. And it's all down to the impact of that one person made. How can we become leaders who give that kind of feedback and are those type of leaders that transform lives forever?
Jeff Hancher (10:20.054) They are, it is transformational. And here's some great news. It is learned. Now here's what I will tell you. None of us are here listening today because we want to win leadership trivia. This is a leadership podcast. know, content is great. But what I will tell you is we got to get over the consuming and start taking action. But it is taught, it starts first with desire. If you're going to be in leadership, you truly have to have a heart that says, I want the people that I lead to reach their fullest potential and I want to be a part of it. You know, leadership transcends a better parking spot and a corner office and a bigger W-2. If you're a leader and you're in it for those things, you can do that, but it's kind of like petting a cat backwards. Why would you? The cat's miserable, you're miserable, nobody's having a good time. Don't do it. But if you've said, look, I don't know what the heck I'm doing as a leader, but here's what I do know. I love people and I want to give them all that I have. Great news. There is a framework. There is a framework that you can, you can learn muscle memory, robotic when you start, but then it becomes part of who you are, your, leadership DNA. And that's what I try to outline in the book, those tools so that they, there's at least an understanding.
Doug Smith (11:46.476) Yeah. Yeah, it started to walk us through that. You know, I think a lot of people resonating this, you know, by nature in my leadership journey, I'm a people pleaser and you know, I want to love people. but also when it comes to me actually giving them feedback, you know, I'm, fearful that I'll lose the relationship and it's been a real big growth journey for me to learn this skill as well. So I'm curious, especially for those people pleaser oriented leaders, what are the steps we can start to take to actually learn this? Cause I agree with you. It's a learned skill.
Jeff Hancher (12:18.066) It is a learned skill. And I would say this, and I'm not stereotyping anybody, I'm just generalizing. The passive or the people pleaser, as soon as they identify with it, what tends to happen is they overcompensate. The pendulum just swings far the other way. They blow, right? Whatever that might look like. Then you have the aggressive leader, which is the extreme opposite, and they just hit people. And by the way, that's dangerous because you can get really good results by hitting people. But in the middle is the assertive leader. And that's the sweet spot. Now look, this is very challenging because it is very fragile. We have multiple generations in the workforce. We're post pandemic. Are we in the office? Are we not? Are we remote? What days are we in? Well, I'm not doing that. I quit. We're through the great resignation. Quiet quitting is costing the global economy $9 trillion a year. 65 % of leaders in America think they give great feedback. Their subordinates have told us by the tune of 21 % of them have said, I haven't received any feedback in the last seven days. There's a gap here, Doug. There is a gap. But that passive leader, here's the beauty of
Doug Smith (13:25.646) Hmm. 33.678) Wow. Hmm.
Jeff Hancher (13:42.155) why I love teaching this. It doesn't matter what your leadership style is, because feedback at the essence of definition is data. It's just data. If you earn the right to give feedback, regardless of how critical the feedback is, it's smooth sailing. And I'll role play it, because this is going to set somebody free. And Doug, you and I are friends, so you're going to be a good sport, hopefully.
Doug Smith (13:50.894) Hmm.
Doug Smith (14:05.559) Sure, let's go.
Jeff Hancher (14:06.824) So, hey, Doug, man, good to see you again, brother. Listen, we got this conference coming up. There's going to be a lot of amazing people there. Hey, let me ask you, if we're at a conference like that, and I smelled that you had a bad odor coming from your breath, you had some bad breath, maybe too much coffee. If that ever happened and I noticed it, would you want me to tell you? Okay.
Doug Smith (14:29.358) 100%. Please, please, please.
Jeff Hancher (14:31.582) Yeah, I would be happy to. Hey, why would that be important to you that you would want me to tell you?
Doug Smith (14:38.094) Because I don't want to smell. I don't want people to be turned off because I have bad breath or anything like that. it would make me better. I would have a better experience at the conference.
Jeff Hancher (14:46.504) Yeah, and I know that you want you want to serve people and in first impressions are important to you. Now the table is set. Two weeks from now, we're at a conference. We're hanging out. We're catching up. And I say, Hey, Doug, hey, you remember a couple weeks back, you asked me to tell you if you had bad breath. Man, I got some great news. Today is that day. And I have mints and I hand you a mint. What do you, how do you respond to me when I give you the mint? Thank you. So there's data. The data is the bad breath. You and I are at the convenience store, or you, me and anybody. And you're behind me in line and I smell this odor coming. And I turn around and I say, your breath stinks. Now they're offended.
Doug Smith (15:17.912) Thank you, and I'm excited. Yeah. 42.275) Right.
Jeff Hancher (15:42.517) Who are you to tell me that my breath stinks? Check this out. It's the same data. The difference is in one scenario, I earned the right to give you critical feedback. It is normally not something somebody wants to hear. So what we've done in that moment is the first step of the framework, which is set the expectation, get the buy-in. Remember my story about my sales manager?
Doug Smith (15:50.094) Hmm. 58.424) That's good.
Jeff Hancher (16:12.906) When he gave me the firm feedback, he said, you've told me that you wanted it to be different for your kids than you had it. That's what you told me. Your behavior right now is not representative of what you told me when you were of sound mind. And I'm here to remind you of that. And I'm not going to let that happen. He earned the right passive leader, people pleaser. This is freedom.
Doug Smith (16:17.39) Mmm.
Jeff Hancher (16:43.562) This is freedom. Because now it's not as gut wrenching. I'm about to throw up. My palms are sweaty. Am I having a heart attack? Because I know if I go in there, they might cry. They might yell. They might get emotional. They might be embarrassed. And Lord help us, they might quit and already have five racks open. I don't want any of that to happen. And we dread feedback so much. especially the people pleaser, they'll avoid it because maybe it'll get better on its own. And we know it never does. If you love too much without feedback and accountability, you will be liked very much. You're the leader that brings in the sheet cake for every birthday, has the baby pony rides in the front lawn of the office, the ice cream socials, and everybody loves you. They don't respect you. Respect comes through earning the right to give accountability. This is the framework. Too much accountability without expectations, you're a monster. Just telling people what the expectations and no accountability, you're not respected. It's the balance of the three things that help you become a strong leader.
Doug Smith (17:50.286) Hmm.
Doug Smith (18:00.556) Wow, that's so good. And I'm just going through as you're saying that in my head, like every significant period of growth that I've had in my life and in my career and leadership journey, I'll probably went back to at some point, one person being willing to share feedback with me data with me that changed the trajectory of everything. Like, I can't think of a time where that wasn't the case. This is huge. Yeah, and on
Jeff Hancher (18:22.816) Huge. I mean, think about that, Doug. Everybody listening and will ever listen to this show. Where you stand right now in your life is a result of the feedback you've been given or the feedback that has been omitted that you should have received. That's who we are. That's who we are right now today. Why are some people further ahead of us? And I mean, look, you got work ethic and skill and all this stuff. But at the end of the day, it's feedback.
Doug Smith (18:39.31) Mmmmm
Jeff Hancher (18:52.458) That's why leaders, we can't miss this. We can't. Lives are literally in the balance.
Doug Smith (18:58.798) Yeah, thank you for sharing the whole people pleaser thing. You know, for me, I was definitely on the passive side for a lot of my career. And actually, I know we've both been influenced by Mark Cole and John Maxwell significantly. I was having lunch with John and I just said, hey, how can I get over this whole people pleasing thing? And he said, let me tell you a story. And he said, and he shared it openly, but he was like, hey, Mark, Mark is very liked. And I went to Mark one day because I had the same leadership issue. We were both people pleasers. And he said, Mark, the good news is everyone loves you and everyone likes you, which is great. The bad news is. your leadership isn't enough to get people where they need to go, which I'm like, man, I can't imagine receiving that. But he said, you have to make the decision that you'll always love people, but not depend on their love. And that was absolutely huge for me, because I'm someone like, want all like you're saying like, hey, if you see blind spots me, I want to know I want to grow. And I crave that so desperately. But it's so funny, I was so fearful of people rejecting me, rejecting the feedback that I wasn't willing to give them the gift that I desperately yearn for. And just recognizing that I don't need to depend on people's love was a game changer in me actually being able to love people actually well by not being passive, but being assertive.
Jeff Hancher (20:00.587) Mmm. 10.026) That's so good. That is, I mean, you talk about a revelation of leadership right there. Most of the leaders that are in their role right now, they got there because somebody was tough on them and they were okay with that. It's giving it. Matter of fact, I mean, think about this listener. If you were to take five seconds, which is all it's gonna take, and you were to tell me you're Mount Rushmore of leadership, These are the people like if they wouldn't have came in my life, I wouldn't be who I am. It take you five seconds and you got them. Here's my question. Now that you have them in your mind, were they tough on you? Were these people tough on you? The answer is always yes. And then the follow up, did they care deeply? Yes, they did. This is the chasm that we need to cross that we're not here to be bosses people report to. We're here to become leaders that people don't want to let down.
Doug Smith (20:51.096) Yes. Yeah.
Doug Smith (21:07.246) Hmm.
Jeff Hancher (21:07.466) Those four leaders that you're thinking about, you didn't want to let them down. If they ever said these words, I'm disappointed in you. my gosh. my gosh. What have I done? Because they just poured so much into you. You just didn't want to let them down. When Sean had that conversation with me that day, my sales manager, and he said, enough's enough, I felt like, what am I doing? Man, I got to get this right. I was in pain, Doug.
Doug Smith (21:18.348) Yeah. 37.09) Yeah.
Jeff Hancher (21:37.108) I was in pain. didn't want, I just wanted to stay in that place, but I knew he was right and he earned it. Man, I mean, that's something that you could sit and get emotional about thinking, who would I be today? Who would I be? That's what we have to offer as leaders. That's why it's.
Doug Smith (21:56.566) Yeah. And your challenge, I love when you talked about the gap is also the feedback we didn't receive. And if as leaders, we don't have the courage to give feedback, we're basically saying, Hey, you're on your own as far as your growth and development. they may never get it for the rest of their lives. And I mean, how much unrealized potential is there in the world? Because there weren't people who, read your book and actually took a deep dive to give firm feedback.
Jeff Hancher (22:21.14) It's true, man. It's true. There's a, there's a, there's a cost of not doing it right. Look, there's plenty of benefits. there's plenty of prizes and Scooby snacks for doing this right. mean, business results, culture, Hey, look, let's not lose sight of legacy. you know, I, I have people still to this day that I haven't led in 15 years that call me boss. They call for advice. Now that's not me tootin' my horn, toot, toot, but to say, Like, man, how fulfilling is that when you can feel like you played a small part in helping somebody get to where they want to go. Now, look, man, if results motivate you, this is a great way to drive results. You know, this retention thing we're talking about, this recruiting thing that we're talking about. Here, I'll give everybody listening the formula for recruiting because you all have open requisitions. You will attract who you are, not what you want. You will attract who you are, not what you want. You build that leadership brand, people will be telling everybody from the mountaintops, this is the place you want to work. You're not going to find Doug Smith anywhere else. Matter of fact, it would behoove you to take a pay cut and work for this guy. He will take you places that no other training program could ever take you. This success is caught more than taught.
Doug Smith (23:21.614) Mmm. Come on.
Jeff Hancher (23:48.128) Doug's not everywhere. He's here. This is where you need to be. And people will be your best recruiters when you become that leader. This is the leader we're talking
Doug Smith (23:59.372) It's so good. so we're focused right now pretty much on the upside of giving feedback as you can transform a life forever and be on that Mount Rushmore for people and be the kind of leader like your sales manager was. again, going back to the teachability side, not everyone responds and say, gee, thank you, Jeff. That was the best feedback. Thank you so much. I know it's going to change my life. Like, what do we do when people won't hear our feedback or we're giving it and we just feel like there's a wall between us? Any advice there?
Jeff Hancher (24:27.71) Yeah, well, that comes the third pillar of the book, which is accountability. Look, here's what we know. Leaders cannot teach willingness. We can't do that. That's not our role. We can't say, hey, everybody, we're going to teach about willingness today. No, you either bring that or you don't. Doug, have you ever went over the speed limit?
Doug Smith (24:38.968) Hmm. 54.732) Yeah, of course. Every day. Don't tell anyone.
Jeff Hancher (24:55.956) Yeah, every day, right? Yeah, yeah, we're gonna edit this piece out. But you see speed limit signs. You see them. And you, me, and everybody listening, we ignore them, right? We'll go six miles an hour, whatever it might be. Well, the expectation is very clear. It's 55. It's very clear. Well, guess what? What if we drove 80, 90?
Doug Smith (25:03.97) Yes. 11.232) Yeah.
Jeff Hancher (25:22.698) What if nobody ever got a ticket? What if we never heard of head-on collisions? What if, hey, have you ever heard of anybody getting a speeding ticket? I've heard about them, but I don't know anybody that's gotten one. Would you take the speed limit sign seriously? You wouldn't. You wouldn't. There has to be accountability for the expectation to have any value at all. We can't just be great at setting an expectation. If you're gonna put up a speed limit sign,
Doug Smith (25:36.63) No. Yeah.
Jeff Hancher (25:51.275) You better hold people accountable. And there's very simple frameworks to do this. But look, you've set clear and reasonable expectations. By the way, reasonable is not, hey team, thanks for joining today. We're all going to run a four minute mile. We what? We're doing what? Well, that's what the company needs. Okay. Well, that's not reasonable. And what are you doing? You're killing someone's confidence. One of my favorite quotes. If you lack confidence in self, you're twice defeated in the race of life, but with confidence, you have won before you begin. I love this quote. When we set unrealistic expectations, we're crushing people before the mission even begins. We have expectations. Now we meet with people on a routine basis to cover the expectation via feedback. IDPs, smart goals, blind spots. We're doing this consistently. but they still don't adhere. They're not willing, which is all of us. We all fall into that trap. This is where the leadership currency comes into play. This is where the accountability and the tough conversations have to happen. Because without the tough conversation, you might as well take the speed limit signs down and stop giving feedback because there's no boundary. This is what we have to do. And I give two techniques for accountability in the book that are simple.
Doug Smith (27:08.322) Hmm.
Jeff Hancher (27:18.602) but require some practice to help you have the tough conversation.
Doug Smith (27:23.054) Are you going to share one of those? Can you share one of those?
Jeff Hancher (27:25.398) I would absolutely love to share one of those. thought you would never ask, Doug. know, there's a couple of things that I would tell leaders to think about. One is the SBI, situation, behavior, impact. And maybe some people have heard about this, but it's a very, very simple, I don't know if I want to call it easy, but I would say that it's simple, situation, behavior, impact.
Doug Smith (27:30.006) Hahaha
Jeff Hancher (27:53.503) So think about the employee that interrupts you in a meeting. Don't just flip out. Don't just get emotional. Don't go down that road. Pull them in. Capture the situation. This morning in the sales meeting, behavior, you interrupted me. Impact, I lost my train of thought and wasn't even able to finish the meeting well. And then intent. What were you trying to accomplish by interrupting me? Notice I didn't say, I think you're rude. why would you ever do that to me? you know, I don't like when you do that. No, I just stick to it. The other, the other one that I love is the five accountability questions. The first question is, let's say that somebody's late to a meeting. Do you understand the expectation now where, where is this a can't do or a won't do. Two, tell me what the expectation is. Now we're validating that they actually do know and we're on the same page. Three, why is meeting or exceeding the expectation good for you? I.e. I don't want my kids to have the same life I had. Four, what are you gonna do differently in the future to ensure this never happens again? Buy-in. Now you're gonna come up with it. I have the answer. I'm a leadership vending machine, but I want to bring you through collaboration into the accountability. And then five, because I got to reset the table because we're dealing with humans here. If this were to continue, what do you think we should do about it? Now comes the discipline, accountability, termination, a write-up, withholding pay, whatever. But now I'm getting there together and I'm setting the table for a future hard conversation. I've had people come into my office, hey, after the meeting, I need to see you in my office. And they'll say, where do I sign, Jeff? Before I even start talking. Because I already set the table that if you're late again within the next two weeks, you're going to get written up. I don't even have to open my mouth. The pen's out. They're ready to sign something. I'm not saying that's fun.
Doug Smith (30:19.064) Yeah.
Jeff Hancher (30:19.072) but it's a far cry from people throwing chairs and punching walls, right? Because the table is set. And so those are a couple of easy frameworks that if you practice in the mirror, you know, set that phone up and role play that over time, it just becomes very organic and it will set you free of the dread of feedback and accountability.
Doug Smith (30:23.288) Yeah. 38.286) Hmm. 43.714) So good. Those questions are absolutely gold. wrote, I wrote them all down and I will be practicing. love what you said too about practice. Like again, this is a skill to be learned. This isn't something you just naturally are equipped with as a leader. And so I love what you said there. you mentioned, you know, talking about accountability, a cadence of meetings. and I think earlier the stat you gave was 21 % of people have not received feedback in the last seven days. I want to know a stat of how many people have not received feedback in the last year.
Jeff Hancher (30:54.665) No doubt.
Doug Smith (31:10.094) You know a lot of organizations the only mechanism they have for feedback is their annual review. What is your recommended cadence of? Accountability or feedback or one-on-one attention that we should be giving to the people that we lead
Jeff Hancher (31:23.53) Yeah, the I mean, the best gift that leaders can give is spelled T I E because this, you know, success is better caught than taught. You know, if I want to be a good golfer, I can read Tiger's book. But if I played with him every Sunday, the odds of me being a good golfer are better. So when I'm giving people time, even if I don't know what the heck I'm doing as a leader, and I don't even know what a debrief is, I don't even know what questions to ask, which by the way, go to our website and get our free five questions. They're my favorite five leadership questions to ask in a debrief. But here's the thing, no matter what, give them your time. I love a weekly debrief. Now here's what, here's what listeners are already saying. We ain't got no time for that. Are you kidding me? We got boxes to ship. We got things to do. Then, get more leaders, get more leaders because I'm telling you.
Doug Smith (32:16.628) Yeah, come on.
Jeff Hancher (32:19.702) I when I get called into companies, Doug, it's because they're hemorrhaging turnovers at 40 % profits down double digits year over prior. What are we going to do? Jeff bring the magic pills. First question I always ask is this is everybody in your company, everybody from rank and file up to C level, everybody is getting a routine debrief monthly, every other week weekly. Are they getting it? And almost always the answer is no. And I say, why? We don't have time. You have to make time because this is where, this is where transformation happens. This is where we're asking questions like, why is success important to you? Why is that meaningful to you? Well, now that I know that if, if I ever saw you behaving in a way that didn't represent why success was important to you, would you want me to tell you? Yes. Great. Table set. Hey, listen, you're a little bit off on the KPI. And I know your goal was to hit this quarterly bonus because you don't want your grandma to go into a nursing home. You want her to stay with you. And this bonus is important to you. Yet I don't see your outbound cold calling reflecting that desire. How can I help? What do you need? This happens in the debrief. And this is where real transformation happens. And these annual reviews, look, if you do them, I'm not hating on you, but here's what I will say. The data is that 29 % of employees believe that their annual reviews are not accurate and that they're a check in the box. Why is that? Because it happens once a year and nothing happens in the previous 11 months. So they don't take it seriously. I would tell you, get rid of the cadence of an annual review.
Doug Smith (34:04.494) believe that.
Jeff Hancher (34:17.224) and meet with people every single week, once a month, whatever it is, that's where the transformation happens. That's where you make the deposits that earn you the right to make the big withdraw.
Doug Smith (34:29.774) Wow. It's funny, you when I was reviewing and prepping questions for you, two words fragile world stood out to me in the title. And I was initially going to ask you like, why is our world so fragile when it comes to feedback? Is it generational? Is it personalities? Is it the world we live in? Have times changed? But what I've been hearing throughout our interview is maybe it's none of those things. Maybe it's we as leaders. haven't actually earned the right through caring for others to actually be able to provide feedback in a way that people will receive it. Would you agree with that or what would you say?
Jeff Hancher (35:03.67) Yeah, I 100 % would. mean, look, there have been challenges since the beginning of time. We're never without challenges. Look, I would because I'm living in the now and the generation, could I make you the argument that this is the most challenging time to lead? I could make a strong argument for that. I don't know if it's true. I could make an argument for it. But here's what I do know. When you equip yourself as a leader, and you have a confidence that borders arrogance, but never gets there, you see this as a duty and obligation. As a matter of fact, you look at the biggest challenges and adversity as the biggest leadership differentiator that there is. Not that you are calling for war, but if it breaks out, I'm a Navy SEAL. This is what I'm built to do. If you were a trauma surgeon, and your whole point of being in the ER was to fix bullet wounds, stab wounds, head-on collisions. We're talking immediate trauma. And you've spent 15 years of your life being one of the best trauma surgeons in the country. And you're in this city and nothing's going down. Nothing's happening. There's no cases coming in. You would get frustrated with that. And then you would sit and think to yourself, I can't believe how upset I am that people aren't getting shot. This is wild. Wait, did I just say that I'm mad that nobody got stabbed today? Here's the deal. It's not that you want people to get stabbed. It's that you have prepared yourself so much to solve such a big problem that if it's not happening, I'll move to another city where it is. Leaders that have this kind of confidence, they embrace the challenge. Look, the problems aren't going away. That's why we're here on Earth. Leadership is a calling. We are here to solve the world's biggest problems. That's what leaders do.
Doug Smith (36:51.672) Yeah.
Doug Smith (37:01.354) So good. The book is Firm Feedback in a Fragile World. You can get it anywhere books are sold. Amazon will include links to all of that in the show notes. Anything else you want to on the book specifically before I start to pivot a little bit?
Jeff Hancher (37:14.006) Don't miss out on the bonuses. My goodness sake. A shameless plug here, firmfeedbackbook.com. I mean, we have bonuses that are upwards of $500 in value, whether it's the launch team. I do a full Q &A interview chapter by chapter to help take you through it. I don't want this to be another book that people read and we're like, wow, that's good stuff. I want it to be transformational. We have curriculum tools. These are all free during the book launch.
Doug Smith (37:19.651) Yeah.
Jeff Hancher (37:42.528) Go take advantage of those so this isn't just another book in your library, but it helps you transform. From feedbackbook.com, I would love to be on the journey with y'all.
Doug Smith (37:51.96) so good. And you know, we obviously talked about the content in the book, but I also want to talk about the process to get to the book. A lot of times when I interview authors, especially first time authors, I'm always curious what they've learned. You had a really unique experience on how you got a book deal and this whole thing happened. Can you share that and maybe share some advice you'd have for first time authors or aspiring authors who want to do the same thing you're doing right now?
Jeff Hancher (38:15.88) Yeah, what an event that was. Man, I just say it was a miracle. I'm nothing special. think I mean, look, I'll give myself a little credit because I think the listener at least needs to hear how I prepared. I had a mentor that said my first book idea was garbage, basically. So that was helpful. No, you don't write a book about yourself. Nobody cares. Talk about firm feedback, right?
Doug Smith (38:36.846) That's awesome. 40.814) Wow
Jeff Hancher (38:43.154) So I feel like we narrowed into a topic. By the way, I took 10 years of succession planning data in that Fortune 500 company. And I used that to build this workshop that the book's written after. And so I took 10 years of data, which told us why leaders weren't promote ready. Number one, emotional intelligence, followed by number two, challenging leadership or firm feedback. felt like emotional intelligence had been baked well. And so I went down this other path and I created this content in a workshop format. The difference between the workshop and the book is the stories that go with it. And so I think we had a relevant topic, but I presented, mean, I practiced, I had five minutes to pitch this book. So I presented what I believe to be the biggest problem leaders face today. And I gave a solution to it. And I didn't focus on the cost. I didn't focus on the benefits of doing it right. My five minutes focused on the cost of not getting it right because I feel like that drew more emotion from the room. So I think that those things may have attributed, but you could ask Mark and Tim. can tell you better than me.
Doug Smith (39:54.268) and, and for, yeah. And for context, for context here, cause people probably don't know you went to a book writing workshop that John Maxwell's company put on and there was other aspiring authors there. They taught you how to write a book, but you had, that was the five minute pitch you're talking about. So you give this five minute pitch and you won.
Jeff Hancher (40:03.125) Yeah. 13.588) Yeah, I a national publishing deal. one person was walking away with a deal. As the Lord saw it fit, was me. Here we are.
Doug Smith (40:22.67) Yeah. So, so walk us through, I don't know if it's been a year or 12 months, what has the process been like and what advice do you have for aspiring authors?
Jeff Hancher (40:32.426) The, the, the, the process has been transformational. was, January of 2024, was the event. So, I mean, we have been hard at it. I had a book outline at best when I went down to Georgia, but hadn't written a single sentence of the book. you know, I had a pitch, I was pitching a book. I didn't have a book, but I will tell you this. I barely graduated high school if I can get vulnerable.
Doug Smith (40:40.064) wow.
Jeff Hancher (41:01.406) I never did go back to college. I suck at writing, Doug. Like, I mean, horrible at writing. But what I learned through this process is, is that I'm not a writer, but I am an author. I am an author. And I got some help in the areas that I needed it. But this process has been transformational. Writing a book, it challenged me in ways that I didn't expect mentally, emotionally, even spiritually. It, it, it, it
Doug Smith (41:06.786) Ha ha.
Jeff Hancher (41:29.798) It forced me to really dig deep and challenge truths that I thought were real. And I uncovered different layers. It was refining to my thought process and solace. I'm a fast runner. I move quick. I don't like to stand around. And so it forced me to really think through this content and where I could help leaders most. And it helped me really articulate my message of my heart more. My heart is bubbling. But how do I get that in word form? And so, it helped me push through those things. And I will tell you this, I've battled imposter syndrome my whole life. I'm not ashamed to say that. there's reasons for it, but I will tell you writing this book really helped me face some of those demons, and come out the other side with a healthy level of confidence. And so for those reasons, I would tell you.
Doug Smith (42:09.294) Hmm.
Jeff Hancher (42:28.338) Aspiring author, you got to go for it. Commit to the process, whether you suck at it or not, commit to the process. Done is better than perfect. you'll always, always find ways to tweak it. You'll always find excuses not to sit down and write. but here's, here's the other last thing I'll say to the aspiring author. Think beyond your book. Think beyond just getting a book written. Your book is not just words on a page. It's a tool to serve other people. It's a tool to open doors, create impact. It's part of your legacy. If there's a book in your heart, you got to write it. You have to.
Doug Smith (43:11.596) Yeah. Well, kudos to you for having the courage and jumping in and getting the deal and here it is. So congrats to you for writing the book. You're doing it. yeah. And I don't know. Is it five years ago you started your business?
Jeff Hancher (43:16.694) We're doing it. Thanks, Doug. 23.798) December of 2019. Yeah. Um, white knuckled the whole way. I mean, I was scared to death. I actually passed out on a commercial flight. Stressed, stressed to the max. Should I quit my job? Should I not? You know, I had a pending big promotion. Um, uh, I had a stock portfolio that was unvested that would make anybody throw up what I left behind. I was nervous as could be, but I really felt this is what I was being called to do. But it got to me so much, I passed out on a plane, but tells you the level of my faith in the moment. Like I was, I was scared to death, but now looking back, it's like, wow, I can't imagine doing anything else.
Doug Smith (44:04.674) Wow. Wow. Now, again, it seems like you're thriving today. Was it a straight up into the right process from 2019 to now? Or what has the journey been like in entrepreneurship and making the jump for you?
Jeff Hancher (44:15.826) It has not been a ladder. It's been more of a jungle gym. think, I fall down and hold on for dear life to not fall off. And, most days I feel like I don't know what the heck I'm doing. I'll give you an example. When I first started my business and people would be like, so how should we pay you? I'd be like, you good with Venmo? Like, I don't know. Like I didn't even have QuickBooks. Like I'm being totally honest here. I had passion. I had tons of passion.
Doug Smith (44:19.052) Yeah. 40.768) I love it.
Jeff Hancher (44:44.672) You know, get me in front of people, get me in front of a crowd, get me in front of leaders. I will pour my heart and soul into this, but man, learning curve. my goodness sake. I didn't know what I was doing. I had no clue what I was doing, but failure, man. It's such a great teacher. It is such a great teacher. And I have failed more in the last five years than probably the last 15 combined, but I can't imagine doing anything else.
Doug Smith (45:02.604) Hahaha 11.958) I love that. So any advice for people who are on the fence and thinking about jumping for a dream, but they're scared. Maybe they're passed out on a plane right now.
Jeff Hancher (45:18.998) Yeah, they might be passed out on a plane right now. I think you got to be careful with YOLO. I think YOLO is overplayed right now. I really do. I think you have to put a little bit of thought into it. And my advice would be is to test the market. You know, I was having lunch with my pastor in 2019. It would have been February of 2019. And he said, I think you should start a podcast. And I said, what's what is it? I had never.
Doug Smith (45:47.728) That's so funny.
Jeff Hancher (45:48.649) I had never even listened to one. I'm just jet setting corporate, you know, running from town to town. I don't got time for a podcast. Kidding me. I didn't even know what it was. And he explains it to me. I launched a podcast thinking I was going to help the leader, the volunteer leaders in my church and our staff. I thought that was his whole thing. Like, and I'm like, man, I don't really have time. I wouldn't even know where to begin. He's like, I'll get everything done. You just show up and talk into that magic mic. And I said, let's do it. So I did.
Doug Smith (46:06.04) Yeah. 15.33) Let's go.
Jeff Hancher (46:18.502) And, the market responded and it, and the fulfillment just bubbled in me. And I had to quit. Like it wasn't like, what should I, I had to quit. I had to do this. And so I don't know if you have to jump off and pray the parachute opens. I'm not saying not to, but I'm saying, you know what, if apple pies are your thing, maybe you should enter one into the county fair and see if it wins a blue ribbon. I don't know. Like, you know, you can test the market and see if the market responds.
Doug Smith (46:23.235) Yeah. 28.878) Hmm. 42.736) haha
Jeff Hancher (46:48.214) but I think there are processes to do that. Now look, if you feel called the jump and hope that the wings open up, I'm not hating on you, but I'm just saying, I don't think that's necessary. And I think it's a little bit overplayed.
Doug Smith (47:01.004) Yeah, it's really good advice as we start to wrap up. Obviously people can connect with you through your book. You have a podcast, but you also do speaking. You do corporate training. You have an executive mastermind that I keep seeing pictures of and it seems like making a huge impact. What are some other ways that if people are like, wow, I really enjoyed this. I'd love to connect with Jeff or bring him into our company. You know, how can people connect to the work that you're doing?
Jeff Hancher (47:21.524) Yeah. Jeffhansher.com like Jolly Rancher, but with an H. I mean, it's all right there. Jeffhansher.com. You know, we thrive in a couple of areas. Leadership development and consulting. You know, we do a lot of leadership training workshops. Sales development and consulting, which we don't promote a lot, but don't tell anybody else this listener, but I'm actually a little bit better at sales than leadership, I think. So we specialize in the B2B world. You know, the Hunter. And so we do a ton of training around sales. Look, find me a stage to do a keynote and you're going to see a grown man cry every time. I love serving people with keynotes. and then we got a lot of free resources as well. You know, we have a podcast that comes out. Doug has been a part of our, our show. I'm grateful for that Doug. that comes out every Thursday, the champion forum podcast. So that's how you can contact us and we'd love to be a part of the journey with you.
Doug Smith (48:17.368) I love it. Thanks for your time. Thanks again for writing the book and we'll to do this again sometime, but keep making a difference. You know how much it matters that you pour into leaders. So thank you for giving your life to that.
Jeff Hancher (48:25.93) Thank you, Doug.
Doug Smith (48:28.002) Got it. All right.
