Are Leaders Made or Born?

In this episode of the L3 Leadership Podcast, host Doug Smith flips roles as he is interviewed by Ron Moore on the Living Grounded Podcast. The conversation delves into a variety of leadership topics, including whether leaders are born or made, the importance of failure in growth, and the value of mentorship and personal development.

00:00 Introduction to the Podcast and Today's Episode

00:41 Starting the Interview with Ron Moore

01:28 Defining Leadership

04:19 Born Leaders vs. Made Leaders

11:55 The Role of Failure in Leadership

16:32 Parenting and Leadership

24:25 Authenticity and Character in Leadership

26:15 Foundations of Leadership

26:40 The Role of Vision and Inspiration

28:02 Team Building and Execution

29:04 Generational Leadership Challenges

37:33 Servant Leadership Defined

42:52 The Importance of Mentorship and Community

49:03 Final Thoughts and Prayer

The Living Grounded Podcast - Real stories. Genuine faith. Through triumph and tragedy, The Living Grounded Podcast shares powerful stories of lives transformed by Jesus, even through the highs and lows.

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Transcript

Doug Smith 0:00

Hey leader and welcome to another episode of the L3 Leadership Podcast where we're obsessed with helping you grow to your maximum potential and to maximize the impact of your leadership. My name is Doug Smith and I'm your host and we recorded this live from our Burgo Realty Studios. And today you're actually going to hear me being interviewed by Ron Moore, who has his own podcast called the Living Grounded Podcast, which I highly recommend. And in our conversation, you're going to hear us talk about whether or not we believe leaders are born or made. Great conversation there. We talk a lot about leadership development, failure, and so much more. I think you're going to really love this episode. So let's dive right in. Here's my conversation with Ron Moore.

SPEAKER_04 0:41

Well, Doug, thanks so much for joining us today, man. Really appreciate you coming in.

Doug Smith 0:44

Yeah, honored to be here. I've watched your leadership from a distance for a long time and see the work you're doing and admired it. So it's an honor.

SPEAKER_04 0:49

Now you that's a shortliner standing in there.

SPEAKER_03 0:53

Yeah. Hey, well, it's honored to be one of the shorts. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 0:56

Well, thank you so much. And uh just to really appreciate all you're doing, uh working with ministries here in Pittsburgh. Uh, you have your own leadership group, uh L3 Leadership. Yep. You bring in conferences. I know you do podcast. Uh man, the last time I saw you, I won't I walked in. I don't know if you remember this, and I apologize. If I didn't apologize, then I apologize now. Uh I was speaking at uh Man Up and walked in on your podcast with Tomlin.

SPEAKER_03 1:22

So I thought, oh man, that's great. Why did I open it? Some people are asking, now you gotta interview them together. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:28

You know, um leadership, I know it's your heartbeat and it's your passion. And I love that you not only talk about leadership, you do leadership, and you bring leaders in that are just seasoned. And so um let's just start with a with a question. And uh your experience, the people you bring in, uh, your research, your interaction. Um describe what what is when we talk about leadership all the time. What is leadership? How would you how would you elevate our definition of leadership?

Doug Smith 2:02

Yeah, this is funny. When I was looking over your questions, the first person that came to mind was our good friend Tunch Okin. Uh, I interviewed Tunch. Tunch was one of my first interviews. I want to say he was like episode 13. And I asked him something similar. And he said, you know, Dougie, I don't know that I could define leadership for you, but I know it when I see it. And I'm like, of course, Tunch drops like this proverb. It's so simple, but so profound. And um, while that's not a definition, I do know leadership when I see it. And for me, uh, I I would be a disciple of John Maxwell. He's the one that really influenced and really uh motivated me as an 18-year-old to get into this space. And he defines leadership as leadership being influence. And so I think that's why most people can be leaders, and I view it as uh a leader, someone that can influence a person or a group of people to go somewhere that they couldn't go on their own and takes them to it on a journey.

SPEAKER_04 2:51

And so that would be my basic definition of what's uh Max will say uh if you think you're leading and no one's following, you're just out taking a walk. I think that's right.

SPEAKER_03 3:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:01

Well, Tunch would be a guy who's a leader. Um before I came to this area, I worked uh with fellowship Christian athletes and so worked with uh a lot of athletes. And we would have them come in to speak to our schools and different things, and man, they need to be late. Um, they would uh not have much to say, and we should have done some better vetting, that's what I learned. So I came here and there's this guy, Tunch Oaken. You gotta get him to say the first thing he did was uh was a father-son evening, and uh he's first to be there, he's last to leave, he's interacting with guys all the time. And uh you know, there's something that you can't teach about that. Um so that's another question I want to ask you here in a second. Tom Landry, who uh you probably maybe have heard, he was a Dallas Cowboy coach for years and years and years. And uh he said something a similar definition that you just said, uh he said as a coach, uh leadership is um uh motivating men to do what they don't want to do in order to achieve the goals they want to achieve. I always love that.

Doug Smith 4:07

That's good.

SPEAKER_04 4:08

Um motivating people is challenging uh but but like Tanj said, you know a leader when you see it. So here's a question I always love to ask. Are you a born leader or do you learn to be a leader? Or is there like a little of both in it?

Doug Smith 4:26

Yeah, I think personally I would say a little bit of both. I would say that I lean more on the the learned side. Although when you say that, you know, my leadership journey is interesting. Um I basically in eighth grade uh I'd given my life to Christ and felt called to go into ministry, actually. But at the same time eighth grade, eighth grade. And uh at the same time, uh my mom got a rare nerve disease uh in her legs, ended up in a wheelchair and in bed most of the time. My dad had to work two jobs. So I went from having like a normal family life to no family life, ended up getting into drugs, falling totally away from the church, and basically became a drug dealer in high school, stopped trying in school, and literally never thought I would do anything with my life. And my senior of high school, my life turned around really when my my mom passed away my senior year of high school. And through that, we can talk about this later if you want to, but Christ came into my life again and really changed everything. But I had three different instances. One was a night uh vice principal, assistant vice principal, and uh he brought us into the office of meeting a buddy. We got in trouble for the hundredth time, and he just said, Guys, I'm sick of seeing you here, but you're leaders and you influence people, and you can either use that for good or you can use that for bad, and you guys are using it for bad. I would challenge you to use your influence for good. And we walked away and actually laughed and we said, Can you believe that guy thinks we're leaders? But now looking back, it's like that was the first person in my life who ever recognized leadership potential in me and planted that seed that, hey, you do have influence and you are a leader. Then um, who would be the man who was my future father-in-law, and then a youth pastor, both came around right at that pivotal age, around 17, 18 years old, and saw leadership potential and cast this vision for me of, hey, if you'll just be intentional with your life and follow God and pursue leadership, I think God wants to use you in a significant way. And that was really the beginning of my journey. And at the same time, that youth pastor introduced me to John Maxwell. I'll never forget it. I never knew there was such a thing as personal development. And he handed me a John Maxwell CD, uh, standing tall. I still remember the lesson. And I transcribed the whole lesson word for word. And I called him and I said, give me everything you got. And for years, I would listen to two or three hours of Maxwell every single night. And so I would say my journey, I do think I had a natural gifting, but had I not had people come around me and had resources given to me, I don't think that I could have grown into the leader I am today. And so I think, yes, uh, you are born with innate skills, but they certainly need developed.

SPEAKER_04 6:48

Well you say that I that's a great question. Yeah. So um I I know there's a spiritual gift called leadership. I think there is something like when I see a Tunch, right? There's things that Tunch did you don't teach. That's good. You wouldn't say, hey, Tunch, you need to do this, this, and this. He just did them. They were innate. And so I do think there's an aspect of being born a leader, like like someone saw something in you, right? Before training, now wherever you are in your leadership, you can always get better. Yes. And whoever you are, you have you have leadership roles you play. If you're a dad, you're leader of your home. You're the pastor of your home. Period the end, right? If you're a mom, you're leading in your home. 100%. Um and I do know you can grow uh in particular areas of leadership. But I but I but I do think, man, there's something there. They saw it in you.

SPEAKER_02 7:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 7:48

There's something there that um you influence people. Uh people follow the again, the old Maxwell thing, right? People follow. Um you you have an innate way, a desire within, you know, to not not have a job that punches a clock, yeah, but to do whatever you need to do, you know, to get to the next step. So man, I I I I I lean more toward born leader.

Doug Smith 8:17

I think I'm with you, because I mean, again, my broad definition, I gave you leadership as influence. Like it was the same thing you're saying, like, hey, the mom who's just leading her family day to day, like that is leadership. Like those kids need lead. And so again, that's where in general, the way I generally think is more broad, 80,000-foot view. But I think if we were to dive into like the leaders that come to mind when we say, like, who do you picture when you see a leader? I I think I I would agree more with you. I I think too, back to the mentor.

SPEAKER_04 8:44

Uh, you know, you you think of your life, right? So let's say your father-in-law wasn't there. Let's say that assistant or that principal or assistant personal had not had said, hey, you guys are leaders, at least clicking that in your mind, right? Let's say that that that other person, you know, didn't say, hey, here's a Maxwell book. Tunch and I used to talk about Tunch, how many, how many guys out there have all the skills to be an NFL player, but aren't aren't playing? We just thought about that. You think about that. How many people in the in the world, let's just say United States, they would have all the gifts of being an NFL player, the size, the speed, the whole bit, but maybe they didn't get the opportunity. You know, maybe like you, uh you're uh they had a uh a tragedy in in their home and they had to quit sports and work, whatever. So I think about that in leadership, right? How many people out there have this innate gift of leadership, but no one has ever said, You can do this, and here's some help in doing this, and here's an and here's an opportunity to do this. That's the other thing, right? Uh sometimes people have, you know, leadership gifts and they get in a career that they're just wheel spinning all the time. They can't get to that next step of of really taking taking uh the leadership role that uh yeah, this is huge.

Doug Smith 10:11

Like when I think about what would have happened, well, I think what my print the assistant principal said was true. You guys are leaders, which we would have clearly we did not uh resonate with that, but we were leading. And when I look back at in my life pre-Christ, like I led tons of people into getting into drugs that that and there's still some people that are in bondage today, and I know I was the person, like that breaks my heart. And so, yeah, I think the the heartbreaking thing is there's people that they're natural-born leaders and they're leading, but they've never been told and had that gift awaken and be told just like in principle said, hey, you can use this for good. Like you could use this to change the world. And and I know in my leadership journey specifically, years I started off in ministry. I questioned whether or not I was a leader, even when I got into this space, because different people said different things to me. And it's like if for 10 years I would let insecurity, am I a leader? I don't know. I don't and my friend finally said to me, Doug, like, quit asking if you're a leader. The question isn't are you a leader? The question is, what do you want to lead? And what do you want to give your life to? And that's between you and God, but like give your life to something that God's calling you to and just lead. Leave all this insecurity stuff go. And uh, yeah, and and I think that's part of the reason I'm so passionate about L3 leadership and trying to reach as many people as possible. Because if I can awaken one person to to change like I got changed, there's nothing better. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 11:27

Well, and you know, and that that's uh the multiplication process. Because if you can awaken that one person, how many people are they gonna impact?

SPEAKER_02 11:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 11:35

So let's let's talk about this. Um what do you what do you think uh with leaders? So so Tom Brady, I was I I saw I'm not a huge Tom Brady fan.

SPEAKER_03 11:46

I don't think you can be in Pittsburgh, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 11:49

But I saw him on this interview and um he was he was talking about he he he said this, he he said we're talking about all his leadership and all the stuff he does. And he was talking about the importance of failure. And he said um he said all this NIL stuff. He said, as soon as a player is disappointed or a coach looks at them the wrong way, or they don't get to play, they just go someplace else. All the portal NIL stuff. And he was talking about, you know, when he he was again drafted, low, uh, didn't have a lot of opportunity. His mom would always say, Hey, you're gonna be great, and it's well, that's my mom, you know. But but when he got the chance, he was driven, right? Tunch, uh Tunch tunch always told the story that uh oh I think it's after his second season in the paper, Pittsburgh paper, when we still got those remember those paper things?

SPEAKER_03 12:50

I do, I do, I'm I'm young enough, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 12:52

Uh uh in the paper, the sports writer said that the the Steelers will never win a championship as long as Tunch Oaken is playing tackle. Wow. And he said he read that and he just his face got red and he started burning inside. But he said, I am gonna prove that guy wrong. And that's when he started doing the martial arts stuff to do the touch punch and the whole bit that he taught other teams. But if someone else had heard that, it would have been, ah, the guy's right. I'm not, I'm never gonna do this. Or like you know, Brady, you fail and I'm gonna stay down. So there's something in a leader, Tunch was a leader, something in a leader that says, I I will I will prove that guy wrong. Yes, I'm not gonna stay down.

Doug Smith 13:36

Yeah, this is an interesting subject for me. There the book that impacted me deeply last year was by a guy named Patrick Bett David, Business Man, and it's called Uh Choose Your Enemies Wisely. And I listen to his podcast a lot, and when he interviews people, he always asks, like, who are your enemies that driven you? And in Twinch's example, it's man, that person that wrote that article, I will I will give the rest of my life to proving that person wrong. And it was interesting. I was I was just interviewing Clint Hurdle, the former manager of the Pirates, and I started talking, he's like, I think there's some people that that does motivate them, enemies. But and and I'm driven like that. Like I can think back to people who said things to me, and it's like, okay, I'll show you. So uh, but this whole uh thing about failure, I think is huge though, because we don't learn anything from our successes, we learn from failure. Like when I think back to the pivotal moments in my life, every single one of them that took me to the next level of growth was built on catastrophic, catastrophic failure. And you know, and I I just love that. And I think as leaders, uh, I've been really inspired by Clint Hurdle. He started doing these posts every Friday on Instagram called Friday Fails. And hey, here's where I failed this week. And what are most leaders posting? They're posting clips from a podcast saying how awesome of leaders they were and look what they built. And like it doesn't actually paint a realistic picture. We fail every single day. And I think as leaders, we need to be more open to sharing and being authentic with our failures to show people the path of like you have to go through the failure to get to where you want to go.

SPEAKER_04 14:57

No, start that no lack of content. Yeah, you should. Friday fails. Let's go, let's make it a thing. Before podcasts were podcasts, yeah. Uh, we had a radio program here, uh, and uh I I would interview people and do conversations. And so I did a conversation with Hurdle. And so um, you know, when and you know this because you're a podcaster. Um, you try to you you prepare the best you can, but sometimes you're on the edge, right? And so um Hurdle said, Yeah, I do this uh morning uh Devo every morning. It wasn't Friday Fails and it was a Devo every morning, and I put a scripture in it and I said, Yeah, those are great. He said, What scripture did I do today? Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_03 15:38

Oh, that's awesome. I just stuttered around and he started laughing and then he gave me, but he like you guys edit that out?

Doug Smith 15:44

No, no, that was live radio. Okay, wow, that's so funny. Oh man.

SPEAKER_04 15:49

Uh he's a great guy. He still is. Friday fails. All right, all right, I'm gonna borrow that from uh I'll give you the credit or or Hurdle the girl.

Doug Smith 15:57

Yeah, I give credit where credits do.

SPEAKER_04 15:59

So um failure teaches us, failure teaches us so much. I there was a guy, uh Doug, that used to tell me, he said, I can always tell a person if they're in their if they're in their 50s or 60s, if they haven't, if they've never had a really hard stretch, because something happens at that point in their life and they like collapse. And it's like you're 50 or 60, you gotta be able to handle that now. But you've never you've never learned in that.

Doug Smith 16:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 16:30

And so, man, failure's a great teacher.

Doug Smith 16:32

When you say it's interesting, we were talking earlier about you have a passion for leading families and marriages and kids, and I'm a I'm a father now. And I think back to how you're talking about like I feel like having the childhood that I did, all the trauma that I I saw and experienced, like it has given me a chip on my shoulder. And I feel like I have a different drive than had I not experienced those things. But now as a parent leading my family team, and we have five kids, like I don't want them to have to go through anything that I did, but it's like, man, how can I lead? I'd be interested in your insight on this. Like, how can I lead my kids in a way that, yes, like they may not have to go through everything that I went through, but they go through enough challenges. We let them fail enough that that they end up, yeah, not being in 15 years or crumbling. It's like they get it. Do you have any thoughts today? That's a great question.

SPEAKER_04 17:16

And I think you know what we we wanted our kids, we didn't want our kids to fail. We wanted to allow that them to fail. That's inevitable, and not always be there to fix their problem. It's not the teacher's fault that you failed that test. You know, and yeah, uh one of our daughters would say, Oh, this teacher, I said, let's just go, let's just get in the car, let's go talk to them right now. Man, I can't believe I'm paying taxes and such a terrible teacher. Let's just go talk. Oh, no, no, no, you know. Um, but but so but to let them fail. This is interesting. I just did a podcast with a lady who specializes in um counseling couples where it's usually the guy, not always, the guy is involved in porn. So porn is blowing up these marriages. And so she said, um she said, um one of the issues, and so we're talking about this, and then and I I was like, What how are you gonna tie this thing in? And she said, one of the issues that parents need to do is let their children fail. Now again, it's not like putting them off the cliff and they're gonna jump off, you're gonna keep them from jumping off a cliff, but but normal opportunities to fail. And I'm thinking, what how does this f work into this porn conversation?

Doug Smith 18:38

I'm like, where are you taking us, Ryan? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 18:39

And then she said, You see, porn is not the problem, it's the solution. Porn's degrading, it's terrible, it's it's it's exploitation, it's all those things. It's terrible.

Doug Smith 18:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 18:53

But it's the solution to a deeper issue that we're really not satisfied with God. And it becomes a coping mechanism in our life. And we could put any sin there, right? So agreed, uh materialism is not the problem, it's the solution to our greed. But she said when kids, you know, they never are able to fail. Uh their parents are always, you know, talking to the coach because they don't have enough playing time. Uh they fail a test, they're in, fixing it. Uh, you know, again, never, never able to experience this. I failed, it's it's my fault. I'm not a I'm not a failure, but I failed, and I gotta fix this. I gotta I gotta do better the next time. I am not gonna learn from this. She said, when those kids get into college and then they fail, you're gonna fail at some point. Yeah, she said, they don't know what to do, and so you run to something comfortable. And she said, in her counseling, she's seen so many people go to porn because they never learned to deal with.

Doug Smith 19:57

I would have never I would have never put that together.

SPEAKER_04 19:59

How did you tie that up? But I think I think there's some truth to that.

Doug Smith 20:03

Drinking drugs, like yeah, name it.

SPEAKER_04 20:04

Yeah. I I run to something that comforts me. Yeah. And you can, you know, again, you can do all the porn stuff and tired and lonely and bored and whatever. Yeah um um but what's a deeper issue? Yeah, what a deeper issue. Yeah. So um with leadership, I think, you know, when a person fails Um we were talking earlier, I I I came here as an um to um first the the church uh at a at um as an associate, this the senior pastor left and I mean we plummeted. We went from like five hundred to three fifty. I I grew it I I I had church growth at gifts, man. I grew it from five hundred to three fifty. Oh man. That was before I preached. But early on, you know, it was like the it was like week to week and it was like a fire. And I realized early on that this is God's church, it's not mine. I have a responsibility here. But I just think about the things I learned then because it wasn't the last time we had a challenge in leadership. Yeah, you know, you're always gonna have another challenge. So anyway, I think failure. So I I like the hurdle thing, Friday failures, because we're we live in a world where it's like social media, it's my best phase, it's my best day.

Doug Smith 21:23

Yeah. Um man. Well, and we always joke, uh, Maxwell always said this thing that lead the reality is leadership sucks. Like you've been in leadership long enough, and he always says there's no such thing as two easy consecutive days in a leader's life. And if you vet, you know, when you're in your 20s and you see all these videos, it's like, oh, if I could just be a leader and have a C suite and be in the corner and lead an organization be so cool. It's like, not really. Yeah, it's not that cool. Like, it's great to make a big impact, but but much more responsibility and a lot comes with it. There's a huge price to be paid. And just recognize like there's gonna be things that you fail out every single day. And I think the more we can share that, the more impact we'll make with this generation for sure.

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SPEAKER_04 22:59

I never forget uh setting in another staff person's office, and there was a big issue here at our church. And I had been talking about it with a lot of people and stuff. And this guy who was like my right-hand man, he said, um, man, you have some big decisions to make. And I wanted him to say we have some big decisions. Yeah, but I realized that yeah, I do. Now we have elders and everything, and no one's alone. But but at the end of the day, I always want to say, if we fail, it's on me. Yeah. If we win, you guys got it. Yeah. Um, because I felt that, you know? Yeah. When you when you when you fail, when we you know, I I didn't do something well. Yeah. Uh and so um uh like Maxwell says, it's there's no two consecutive days, and yeah, it's gonna be some rough times in there.

Doug Smith 23:56

Yeah, when we fail, let's admit it too, right? Yeah, leaders are so easy to like to push off to like oh no, like we people know you failed. So I I was I was listening to someone the other day, and they're like, I will only follow a leader who's willing to admit they were wrong, willing to admit they didn't make the right like right, and I think we as leaders need to be much more vulnerable in owning our failure as well and taking responsible for it, okay, for sure. Yeah, I think a lot of people just shove it down and hope the people don't notice. And they always do they always they somehow always do it. You'll lose credibility, yeah. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 24:24

Yeah. Um, so you you've you've uh you've been around some great leaders. Um you lead, so you have the experience, you know what it looks like. You are a leader. Uh you've interviewed some great guys, uh, you have uh top-notch people coming in to L3 uh training and and conferences. Um what is as as you and in and and it's always fun with those conferences because you get to see the people when they're not on stage, right? That's when you that's when you see the real person, when they're not on stage. Um that's what I always loved about Toncha and others because he was the same guy sitting, you know, uh having a cup of coffee as he was when he was on the stage. Another guy, uh uh I I got to meet a a real hero of mine, a mentor of mine from afar, Chuck Swindahl. Yeah, and had lunch with him a few times. And I thought, yeah, you're the same guy that I read, and you're the same guy when you're talking as you are here lunch. And that just there's just something so authentic, attractive about that.

SPEAKER_02 25:25

You know?

SPEAKER_04 25:26

So you you see all these people and you get to see them up close and you get to interact with them. Um what what would you say if you could three, five, I don't care how many you have, but what are the what are the characteristics? Like what are the echoes of man, that's that's a characteristic of a leader.

Doug Smith 25:44

Yeah. Uh for me, the ones that come to mind off the top of my head is one is authentic, just like you're talking about. Like Clint Hurdle for me is authenticity. So they're the same person they are when you interview them as they are behind the scenes. They're open about their failures. So authenticity, two is character. So I would say character development is the most important. And so the the leaders that I look up to and admire most, and even you know, I made this commitment on the front end when I started all three. Like, I never want to have a leader on whose marriage is falling, you know, right? Like, I want people who are living the real deal. And so character is huge. Um, I think they care about people. So, you know, most people start with a heart for wanting to help people, wanting to make their lives better. So for me, that's foundational for what I look for in leaders of even if they're leading an organization, like do you want the people in your organization's lives to be better as a result of your leadership? Um, so there's a few things they make things happen, right? Without leaders, nothing would get done, nothing happens without prayer, money, and leadership. And so that's we know, going back to our original definition, we take people to places they couldn't go on their own. And so they usually have large visions of something they want to do, uh, but want to do with a group of people, and they're able to inspire and articulate a vision in a way that brings everyone around and use different people's gifts and accomplish whatever God's called them to do. And so those are some of the things that come to mind off the top of my head.

SPEAKER_04 27:02

Authenticity, character, care for other people, make things happen. Yeah. And I love the other thing you said. Um a leader doesn't really care who gets the credit. Now, again, we all got an ego. Right. Sometimes we say, hey, it wouldn't have happened unless I unless I was a part of that, right? So God is uh good at uh humbling us.

Doug Smith 27:23

Yes, that's what God usually gives us why spouses. Yeah, yes.

unknown 27:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 27:27

Um we're not that good. But um but a leader doesn't really care who gets the credit as long and and would would love to give other people credit as long as the ball's moving, as long as we're moving forward. Yes. Uh I think that's so I think that is so critical uh in uh in a in a in in in leadership.

Doug Smith 27:47

Yeah, you have to get people to deliver the goods. I always tell young leaders like your goal in an organization is to become the obvious choice, and you become the obvious choice by delivering the goods of whatever you're supposed to be doing. And so yeah, execution is key. If you can't execute anyway, that's a whole nother concept.

SPEAKER_04 28:02

I think uh you didn't ask me, but I I would add uh and you said you said this, I'll just put the name team building, right? So yeah, uh you're building a team uh because if you're not building a team, this thing is it's just as small as you are. If you're building a team, man, this thing gets uh that's really big. This that's great. That's great. I love that. Again, authenticity, character, care, make things happen, building a team. Uh great, great stuff. You're a young leader.

SPEAKER_03 28:28

You've I'll be 40 in May. I don't mind myself. Yeah, your life is almost over. Have you visited the funeral home to make a well a few years ago?

Doug Smith 28:39

Uh we our executive director hosted a meeting for young leaders in the organization, and I wasn't invited. And when I heard about it, I'm like, what? Like, I'm always invited to the emerging leader meetings. And so I'm like, why wasn't I invited? He's like, 35 and under man. I had a yeah, I had a midlife crisis at that moment, but uh it happens.

SPEAKER_04 28:54

I've been here long and I've been uh in leadership long enough to be the the youngest leader. I feel pretty good about that, and then not be the youngest leader, and it's a whole different feel. I think biblical leadership's biblical leadership, right? It doesn't change. So they're built so so so these things authenticity, character, care, these these really all good leadership principles are first biblical principles. Yeah, and we do live in a different culture. Um do you think any of those things you mentioned? So you're 40, you just brought in a guy, uh Horse Schultz, yeah, yeah, 84 years old, a tremendous leader. Do you think um some of the things Schultzy did when I read his book and some of the things he said, do you think uh some of those things would fly today? Do you see anything happening like leaders and and influence and what people will move with and towards?

Doug Smith 29:57

I I love it to be honest with you. So, like even when he came in, now he'll say like generationally when he talks, there's things that he says, I'm like, he said a few things in the conference, I'm like, okay. I don't know if I would have said it that way, but it's just who he is. But as far as the way he led, at the end of the day, like I do feel like we have a generation that like doesn't want standards and doesn't want a high bar of excellence. And I think you're seeing that everywhere in service industries. It's like I go to restaurants and sometimes I'm just like, really? Like, yeah, is anyone tell you anything? And and again, I only say that because I'm so grateful for the people in my life who came and raised the bar. And so for me, you know, how he he shared how he made this list, and I'm gonna forget how many. They had like 20 core values, and he would print these laminated cards every single day and literally make everyone huddle, and he'd go over a core value every single day, and they'd have to do something and just huge high standards. And that inspired so many leaders at our conference. We had uh a guy that Henny Jouelers, I don't know if you know John, he went and he started doing that with this whole industry. And so for me, when I think about uh Horst and just excellence wins, I think that's desperately needed in our culture. I don't know if that's specifically what you were talking about, but uh, I think we desperately needed to raise the leadership bar in our culture today.

SPEAKER_04 31:11

So talk to the um young f talk to the 50-year-old leader, right? So 10 years older than you and coach them, coach them up on how to lead a 25 or 30 year old. Um to something different. Is is it more relational? Is it more transactional? I mean, what do they need? Do do they not need to do anything different? You just lead and or no, we have to sit back and consciously think about okay, this is a different time. People raise different ways with our culture, and we need to lead differently. How would you coach that 50-year-old leader?

Doug Smith 31:59

Yeah, I can only speak from from the way I've led and you know, my experience with that. I don't even know if they're in the next generation for me or from a millennial. Um, but for me, yeah, everything goes back to relationships, and even when we were talking about authenticity, uh, I think the next generation craves authenticity more than anything. And so if they're seeing a leader who's not authentic, who's not sharing, who's not open, who doesn't own his failure, his or her failures, uh, then I think you're gonna lose all influence and all credibility. Um, but I would also say, like, part of the reason I started L3 and I bring in seasoned leaders is the next generation desperately needs mentored and desperately wants to be mentored by uh by that generation. And the gap I see is they don't know how to ask for it. They're they're afraid often. An older generation is afraid of the younger generation. I don't know how to connect with them, but they desperately need each other. And these people have so much to offer because you know, a mentor told me the mistake my generation makes is all of our mentors are one year older than us, right? Like they really haven't lived their lives, had the experience, had the failure to really give you the lessons that are gonna take you to the finish line, which is a whole other thing. So I would spend a lot of time relationally. I would gather if you lead an organization, I would gather the young leaders together and have be open and vulnerable. Hey guys, I'm 50 years old. I don't know about your generation. I love your generation, I see so much potential in your generation, and I want to do everything I can to lead you well and help you mature, grow, and develop. How can I do that? And and take feedback. I think a lot of older leaders aren't necessarily teachable, but uh I think feedback is such a gift. And if you'll ask, they'll answer.

SPEAKER_03 33:27

Yeah.

Doug Smith 33:27

If you listen. Again, Andy, listen, if you don't listen to people when they give you feedback, soon you'll be surrounded with people who have nothing to say.

SPEAKER_04 33:33

Right, right. That's a great point. Well, I I think that's a great, I think that's a great point all the way around. And um I I asked that question uh in a way that I hate to interact with questions stereotypically, right? So in in the older generation, younger generation, there are people who are gonna work their tails off, they're gonna get things done. They have a back to leadership, they have a personal drive. Uh, you know, they already they already are a college kid uh and it's May and they already know what they're gonna be doing this summer, right? Yeah. And then others are gonna graduate and like my generation as well, way uh uh ahead of yours. Uh, you know, some got home and had no idea what they were gonna do during the summer uh in their college years. So, so maybe it's not so much during I talked to I I I did an interview with um a podcast with uh Walt Mueller from uh uh Parent a Center for Parent Youth Understanding. And I said, Well, just just um give me give me like um a thumbnail uh description of every generation. And you know, start with the boomers and then the X's and all uh just go all the way down. And so he did it and he did a great job. But he said, you know what? Um there's not a lot of difference really. You know, we're people uh we got the same issues. Yep. Uh we may have other, we may have other ways that's it's uh temptations and screen time and distractions, right? Yeah, but uh it's gonna be something different. It was something different 20 years ago, it's gonna be something different 20 years from now.

Doug Smith 35:07

When you're saying that, I guess this came over my heart. Um Ramsey, Dave Ramsey always says, you know, the next generation, there's two types, awesome and suck. Like right? Like there's people that are awesome, they're gonna be rock stars. But on that side, I would say, and I do feel like this has been a generational shift. When we talk about the epidemic of fatherlessness in our country, I mean it just keeps getting worse and worse. And when you look at the ramifications of that, and so I would say that next generation, they need fathered and they need mothered a lot of times. And is that our job and the workforce? Not necessarily, but going back to the the men and women who poured into my life, there were positions of leadership in our city that didn't have to. Had they not done that, I'm not standing here today, I'm not working at light of life. I'm much more likely to be a client at light of life, walking through our doors in need. And so I would really challenge leaders like who can you mother and father in an appropriate way and really raise up that you'll look back and say, wow, I can't believe they started there when they were 20. They were just this little punk, but now look at them now lead, you know, you may be raising up your successor.

SPEAKER_04 36:03

You never know. You never know. I just think of uh when I came here, um, some guy, one one guy I really looked up to was a guy named Jim Lecky. I don't know if you remember him, but he would he led uh a family ministry here. Uh like he got a bunch of pastors together and he said, guys, we gotta we gotta uh uh talk about the family and uh in your churches. And he said, Let's start with marriage. And so he brought some national figures in, the marriage experts, and and we had some great time and we signed this contract that before anyone would be married at our church, uh, they had to go through six weeks of premarital counseling. We still did that today. We still do that today. And I was sitting in there, I was working on my doctorate at the time, and I hadn't decided on a uh dissertation, and I thought, man, marriage, that'd be that'd be pretty interesting to do. And and you know, if we could teach this at our church, that's a good thing. And so I just think about Lecky, who never thought of that, but uh, you know, he he influenced me just by being around him with marriage and really wanting to pour into that. So he probably didn't even know that. He's with the Lord now, but uh it's just it's just amazing. I was just thinking, you know, when leaders don't invest in the other generation in the next generation, uh man, we we lose so many resources.

Doug Smith 37:22

Yeah. What are you intentionally doing to seek that? It's so important. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 37:27

All right, so we've kind of already said this, but let's just put another definition to it. Servant leadership. What's servant leadership?

Doug Smith 37:37

Yeah, for me, I just think that life is not about you, and so it should be all about others. I think that's the example that Christ gave us, and so it's you laying down your life, your wants, your rights, your everything in order to make the lives of others better. And so every decision you make as a leader organizationally uh in your family should all be about the other people. It's all about the people. It's been the recurring thing we've been talking about. It's all about people. And for me, you know, the true litmus test at the end of a leader's life is who did you impact? You know, we've recently seen the lost two of our heroes, Tunch and Wolf, and uh to go to their memorial services and just hear the impact person over person or person. Like they were truly, you know, I work at Lyle Life, they they served for over 35 years. Those two men used their platform, their finances, everything they had in leadership to benefit the least of these, so to speak, in in the city of Pittsburgh. Uh, that is servant leadership, and they are the true models of it for me, and they certainly inspire me in their latency desk today.

unknown 38:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 38:33

You know, one of the things I think about when I think of both of those guys, uh, they did so many things up front, uh, you know, uh in in the public. Um MC in this or MC and that, the radio, the whole bit. Uh, but those guys were behind the scenes uh men as well. So there was a um a guy that came to our church, uh uh Craig spoke at something. We did an interview thing with him, and this guy came up and said, Uh, I met Craig Wolfly once years ago. I'd like to meet him. So I said, Yeah, come on over, man, I'll introduce you. So he talks to Craig and Craig says, Oh yeah, I remember meeting you in a whole bit a conversation. Uh uh some months later, that guy passed away. So his daughter reached out to me and said, Hey, my dad thought so much of Craig. Would you just tell Craig that my dad passed away? Long story short, uh Craig said, Oh, thanks for telling me. Went to the viewing, went to the funeral, and uh interacted with that family at a level that he didn't have to. Yeah, he didn't I don't know that he knew the guy that well, but that was who he was. Yes, and um I just thought, man, that's that's servant leadership. No one saw that, yeah. And it took time and it was sacrifice, he had to sacrifice something else, busy guy, but he was willing to do that when no one else and Tunch was the same same way.

Doug Smith 40:04

I had the the yeah, Tunch. So and again, it's not like I had like I was best friends with Tunch, but at the mission, he he every time I had a kid, I got a video from Tunch saying, Dougie, I'm so happy, or a call. I I was just watching a video the other day of him leaving me that. My sister in 2019 passed away of a heroin overdose. Tunch was the first person to call me and leave a voicemail. He came to the viewing, my family couldn't believe it. And uh, and again, that's who those guys are. And and don't, as leaders, servant leadership, so much more like you could be surprised. Just be where your feet are. That's what Clint Hurdle always says and inspired me. He said, Hey, when you when you're a leader, people are gonna win your time. He said, When I'm at the gas station pumping gas as a pirates manager, people wanted to come up to me and give me a lineup. So I let them give me a lineup. They wanted to tell me how bad I, you know, what I should have done differently last night. So I let them like just love people. And and again, here at Twinchpass, how many years ago? And I'm still watching videos and listening to a voicemail of them just to hear the guy's voice and saying, wow, this guy took time to call me in a time of need when, yeah, it was the last thing he probably needed to do.

SPEAKER_04 41:07

Yeah, yeah. Just yeah, the impact that the the impact all leaders make uh on your life is just so, so significant. And I think that's the that I think that goes back to you the the the Maxwell thing. Uh if you're a leader, there's gonna be some tough stretches. Uh there's gonna be some hard times, uh no days like another one, which I think as leaders we thrive on, right? Because that's fun. Um uh and stress is if you're a leader, you like to work through that, right? Because you you're wanna wanna uh fix this thing, you want to you want to get the people around uh to work through it together. Um but at the end of the day, it's doing the things that uh that no one else sees.

SPEAKER_02 41:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 41:50

And um man, that's where that's where real leadership takes place. And uh that true leader is also doing that in the home. Yes, yeah. Because your five kids they don't care what you did today.

SPEAKER_02 42:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 42:07

Uh they care what you do tonight, you know, when you're around them. Yeah. And I see so many guys, man, they uh there's so they're dynamic as a leader of a company, but their marriage and families falling apart, and you say, time out. That's not that's not holistic leadership.

Doug Smith 42:29

Yeah, I'm I'm so passionate about this. So in my early 20s, I'll never forget, I was working at Victory Family Church, John Nuzo, I don't know if you're close to that or not, but he said, uh, guys, I think about 2% of Christian leaders make it to their finish line, doing what God called them to do with their families intact. Like 2%. Now again, I don't know that there's a data study behind that, but I'm sure it's not much higher of a percentage if it is. And so that always challenged me. And where I think so many leaders miss it is they lead in isolation. Uh, I remember hearing Henry Cloud say that 80% of CEOs that he had worked with didn't have one single person in their life that they could confide in. Not one. And so community became very big for me, which is why we do mastermind groups. And, you know, I we were talking earlier, probably three or four years ago, I started a group I call it a pastormind. And I just grabbed that there's 13 of us. Uh I think nine or 10 of them are all local lead pastors who just took over. And three of them are, you know, leading nonprofits like Light of Life. And what I always the vision for this that we cast is every leader needs a place where they're fully known, fully loved, and fully challenged. So fully known, like, hey, if I'm struggling with my marriage or with my kids, I can openly share that. Why? Because I'm fully loved. Like I know that people are gonna love me and they they couldn't care less what I'm doing because it's because they couldn't care more. And then lastly, fully challenged. Sometimes, like you're saying, if someone's marriage is falling apart and they're crushing it in a ministry, they literally need slapped in the face and it's like, bro, what's wrong? Like, you're gonna lose everything. And uh, and again, to see these guys come together and uh be fully known, loved, and challenged. And basically the vision is guys, like I want to be. 60s, 70s, handing our baton off to the next generation, looking back, saying, like, our families are intact, our kids are all loving and serving God, like nothing's more important. But I don't think that that can happen uh if you're living in isolation and non-community.

SPEAKER_04 44:12

Yeah. Yeah, that's so that's so crazy. We keep going back to Tonshin. I I was thinking about uh I was thinking about that, and uh you know, um you have a lot of associates, you have a lot of associations, but a good friend that you can do those things with on a deep personal level, man, I think you know, uh if you get a handful of those, you're you're a fortunate, fortunate person. And I was thinking of going through a tough stretch a few years ago. And if it hadn't been one guy, if there hadn't been one guy in my life, I don't think I would I wouldn't have made it. I wouldn't have made it. Um but he was always there to challenge me. And it wasn't always, hey, this is a pity party, uh, you're right. It's like, no, yeah, you shouldn't be thinking like that. Uh I gotta tell a quick story. So Tunch and I have known each other, knew each other for many, many, many years and and kind of grew up here at the at the church together. And and uh um we in um 2010, we had this radio ministry here in Pittsburgh, the journey for years on the on Word FM. And uh 2010 we went uh national, we went to I think 12 or 16 stations across the country. So I'll never forget. Tunch came to me and said, I'm gonna just tell you this. If I ever sense you getting a big head over this, I will knock it off your shoulders. Don't ever forget that.

SPEAKER_03 45:32

That's so beautiful, man.

SPEAKER_04 45:34

And and it was just we had that relationship. And then I would I would read uh I would read that he made the Pittsburgh all you know 50-year team. Oh man, look at you. You're in the highlight again. So we had a great relationship, but there was a there was an aspect that there was um uh uh a humility that was that was brought on by that, that we're not we're not big stuff, we're not bigger than we think we are, and we got other people making sure we don't we don't get to that point in our life. You gotta have people challenging it.

Doug Smith 46:09

Yeah, I'm curious when when you and uh I don't know if it was tension or not, but you mentioned that one person is like, man, if it weren't for that person, and I'm curious, so like I for uh for me, like that group is that for me. Um, but what did that look like? I mean, you're you were a pastor of a church, influential church, thousands of people probably wanting to spend time with you, easily could have been isolation. Like, I'm assuming that relationship didn't happen just laxadaisily or by accident. Like, what did you guys do intentionally to form that? Like, did you try to check in with each other every week?

SPEAKER_04 46:37

I'm just curious because I always want to know how people that relationship started uh probably 25 years ago. And there were three of us who met in what we always call accountability groups. Yeah. And so we met uh every other week, I think, or once a month, I can't remember, and we would meet, you know, um Eden Park or Bob Evans or someplace, and we would just check in with each other, see how each other's going. We would text each other along the way. At some point, uh for whatever reason, uh one guy kind of fell off. And so he and I kept meeting regularly. And uh, you know, we we uh it's interesting, our families didn't go out and hang out together. Uh, but anytime I needed to talk to him or he needed to talk to me, here's a text, hey, let's get together and work through it. And so it just became a deep friendship, you know. It wasn't like, okay, we're in accountability, so we're gonna meet this day and we're gonna ask these questions. Tunch and I used to talk about that too. Um, accountability groups, you know. When you're in an accountability group, and I yours are gonna be different, right? Yeah, the ones you do, but it's like, okay, uh this guy's having trouble with something. I'm gonna dog on him, but I'm next and I'm having trouble with the same thing. And so, and so Tunch and I used to say, you know, no one even holds anyone accountable in the accountability groups. Uh, but it's that friendship, it's that deep friendship that says it's not about accountability.

Doug Smith 48:08

The accountability comes to being fully known and fully loved and being whether it's in that group setting or me calling you after and saying, like, hey, I don't feel comfortable sharing this with everyone, but like yeah, I mentor told me he said, Doug, when you mess up or when you're going through a show, you don't have to tell everyone, but you do have to tell someone. And you know, you have to choose that. But again, what I'm hearing from you is like that didn't happen by accident, it was intentional pursuit right now. And so as leaders are listening to this, it's like if you don't have that, whether it's a single person, whether it's a group of people, I can't challenge you enough to find that as soon as you gotta have it.

SPEAKER_04 48:39

I got a couple other guys uh that um even if we don't talk with each other for a month or six weeks, when we when we uh call or text, it's like we were picking up right you know where we started. And you never have to worry about that relationship. That's the other thing, right? Because say anything you want to say, and you're not worried about losing the relationship. Uh you're just walking through this thing together. Yeah, absolutely. Um, so we're gonna wrap this up. I want you to pray for uh men and women uh who are leaders uh uh uh in in business, in church.

Doug Smith 49:14

Uh but before you do that, you can uh find your stuff at l l3leadership.org.org light of life.org, or just look up Doug SmithLife.com, any of those you'll find me. I'm not hard to find. I post on social every day, try to add value to people.

SPEAKER_04 49:28

So you got uh the leadership group, Light of Life, uh your own. You got the podcast, but yeah, people, what's the uh podcast name?

Doug Smith 49:38

Yeah, the L3 Leadership Podcast. Okay. Yeah, 425 episodes in. Where are you at? You with your radio show, you have to be in the thousands. Well, we would have been, but they weren't called podcasts back then. I would consider them a podcast.

SPEAKER_04 49:51

Would you do you have any idea how many shows you've done like there'd be a bunch. There'd be a bunch. Uh we're we're uh we're mounting them up since we uh since we regrouped and restarted, but yeah, there'd be a ton of them. Yeah. Uh they're they're captured someplace. They're captured someplace. In fact, uh one of the one I did radio programs with Tunch, and the content was so good. I think we did two, 12, um, 12 sessions, two series of 12 each 12 sessions long. And so we just did a a retro uh podcast with Tunch. Oh wow. Uh putting that together. I think we did that last summer. It was a blast. And we had so much results. The cool thing, the cool part about that was I had people come up and say, you know, um, I didn't I I just moved into Pittsburgh a couple years ago. I hear this name Tunch all the time, but I got to meet him uh through those podcasts, and we had all his kids uh introduce uh they uh one of his kids introduced uh each uh each episode.

Doug Smith 50:49

So that was a well in the power of this platform. If anyone's listening to this and wants to start a podcast, I mean you would know this. Like we just were at Craig Wolfley's memorial service together, and uh you had the opportunity to speak to honor his life. And the fact that you had recorded conversations, and I thought it was so beautiful that you played Craig Wolfley talking about grace and talking about God. Uh, I mean, what a what great live like that? The family can have that forever, and so can everyone that know them. So I just want to thank you for everything you've done, the content you put on.

SPEAKER_04 51:15

Man, I I was uh so privileged to talk to uh uh talk to Craig and we were so thankful we got that and uh yeah, he just went uh so quickly. Uh but we had uh so much of uh well, so much of what he says has been recorded, but man, talking about Christ, he had he was uh uh he was tender uh for Christ and uh uh what a great guy. What a great guy. Well, Doug, thanks for coming in. Appreciate it so much. Um we'll do it again sometime.

Doug Smith 51:44

Yeah, and you're next. I'm interviewing you for the podcast. And I look forward to it. Pray for it. Father, in the name of Jesus, Lord, I just thank you for Ron. I thank you for this ministry, I thank you for this podcast. And uh, Lord, I just pray for everyone listening. Lord, I pray that what we just said impacted them, Father, whether it was something that we said or something you whispered to them uh just as they were listening, Father. And Lord, I just pray for leaders. Lord, we just prayed about it's all about people, Father. No matter how old you are, what season of leadership you're in, where you're working, it's all about others in the kingdom of God and being servant leaders. And so I pray for every leader that you would develop them, Father, as quickly and as solidly as you can in their life, Father, to be the leaders you've called them to be. And I pray that you would make a big impact in and through their lives. And I thank you for them in Jesus' name. Amen.

SPEAKER_04 52:24

Amen. Hey, thanks so much, Doc. Appreciate it.

Doug Smith 52:27

Thank you. Well, hey, leaders, thank you so much for listening to my conversation with Ron. I hope that you enjoyed it as much as I did. You can find links to everything that we discussed in the show notes below. I also want to give a special thanks to our sponsor, Endosha Marketing Solutions. They're the producers of this podcast. And if your organization has any marketing needs at all, I wholeheartedly recommend their services. You can visit them at ndosta.com. That's A N D O C I A dot com for it. And it's always legalized uh leave that you with a quote every episode. And today I'll quote Clint Hurdle who we talked about in this episode. One of my favorite Clinton Clinton. The only thing fair in life is a fall hit between first and so funny coming from a baseball coach. Well, hey, leaders, that's gonna wrap up today's episode. As always, remember don't quit. Keep leading. The world desperately needs your leadership.