The L3 Leadership Podcast with Doug Smith

The Future Begins with Z with Tim Elmore

• Doug Smith • Season 1 • Episode 443

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In this episode of the L3 Leadership Podcast, Doug Smith sits down with Dr. Tim Elmore, founder of Growing Leaders and bestselling author of The Future Begins with Z: 9 Strategies to Lead Generation Z as They Disrupt the Workplace.

After following Tim’s work for nearly two decades, Doug finally gets to have a conversation that every leader needs to hear. Together, they unpack the realities of leading Generation Z, why three out of four managers say Gen Z is the toughest generation to manage, and how leaders can shift from frustration to opportunity.

⏱️ Episode Breakdown

00:00 – Why Tim wrote The Future Begins with Z
02:00 – The alarming stats about managing Generation Z
03:45 – The “Peter Pan Paradox”: Age of authority ↓, age of maturity ↑
07:00 – Artificial maturity: Overexposed to information, underexposed to experience
12:00 – Parenting the next generation: Risk, responsibility, and resilience
17:00 – Why leaders must mentor—not just manage
20:00 – The onboarding mistake costing companies Gen Z talent
21:30 – “Everyone has a voice. Not everyone has a vote.”
24:00 – Why Gen Z decides whether to stay on Day One
26:00 – Mental health realities leaders must understand
27:00 – The A.L.E.G. framework for difficult conversations
33:00 – Reverse mentoring: What older leaders must learn from Gen Z
36:00 – Lessons Tim learned from John Maxwell
41:00 – Advice for aspiring authors and speakers
48:00 – Begin with belief: Let people start with an “A”
51:00 – Don’t stereotype—listen before confronting
53:00 – Tim’s life sentence: The legacy he hopes to leave

🎙 Guest

📚 Books Mentioned

👥 Leaders Referenced

🤝 Sponsor


The L3 Leadership Podcast is sponsored by Andocia Marketing Solutions.
Andocia exists to bring leaders’ visions to life. Learn more at www.andocia.com

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Doug Smith:

Hey leader, and welcome to another episode of the L3 Leadership Podcast, where we are obsessed with helping you grow to your maximum potential and to maximize the impact of your leadership. My name is Doug Smith, and I am your host, and we recorded this episode live from our Burgo Realty Studios. In today's episode, you're gonna hear my interview with Dr. Tim Elmore. I've been following his work for literally two decades, and I've wanted to interview him that entire time, so I'm so glad that I finally got to sit down with him. Dr. Tim has given his life away to investing in the next generation, and he recently wrote a book called The Future Begins with Z: Nine Strategies to Lead Generation Z as they disrupt the workplace. And that's what we talk about in this interview. And I think you're really gonna enjoy it, both if you're a leader in the workplace with young leaders, but also if you're a parent. Obviously, I have five kids under nine years old, and so it was really, really cool to hear some of Tim's parenting advice as well. So I really think it's gonna add a ton of value to your life. So with that being said, let's dive right in. Here's my conversation with Dr. Tim Elmore.

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Dr.

Doug Smith:

Tim Elmoore, welcome to the L3 Leadership Podcast. I've actually had you on my bucket list interview for the past, I don't know, 10 years. So it's an honor to finally have this conversation and uh so excited to talk about your new book, The Future Begins with Z. So I want to just jump right into that content. Why did you write this book and why is this important to leaders?

Tim Elmore:

Oh gosh. Well, I don't presume that I'm the only one that could write on this, but I knew someone had to. Um, the more I dug around to the businesses that I consult with or speak to or whatever, I was just finding a gap that was forming. Um, you've seen the data, I'm sure, but three out of every four managers say that Generation Z is the toughest generation to manage. And so for those listeners that might not know, Gen Z would be the newest, youngest employees coming on the team. So three out of four are saying, man, they're tough. 30% are saying they would, they, they fired them within the first month of their employment. And then another 30% say, I avoid hiring them altogether. So that's not a path forward, I think you would agree. So I just thought somebody's got to write a playbook, do the research, and then write a playbook that helps us who are maybe over 40 really welcome them and capitalize on what they bring. I actually took a challenger voice, Doug. Uh, rather than saying, yeah, kids today, what are you gonna do? I decided to say, wait a minute, wait a minute. What if our greatest challenge could become our greatest solution to future challenges? And that's really the message of the book. Yeah. Yeah.

Doug Smith:

I mean, those are pretty scary statistics. It's interesting. I remember hearing Dave Ramsey, I don't know if you would agree with his assessment, but he said, you know, there's two kind of, there's two kinds of young people in the next generation, awesome and suck. Yes, yes. Would you uh in general, I know we may not say it in those terms, but after all of your analysis, would you say that's true, or is Dave being a little too harsh there?

Tim Elmore:

Dave's Dave's pretty harsh. I love him. I've I've been up there with him, but um, when I say too harsh, I would just say it's not that simple. There are some that are lazy slackers, but there were lazy slackers in Gen X and boomers too. So that does happen. But I think kids today who are about to enter the workforce have grown up in such a different culture. So I don't always blame them. Uh when we see them coming in, it's not their fault, but it is their responsibility to get this thing right. So I find in writing this book, Doug, I found so many amazing 20-somethings. And I want to tell some stories on this conversation because I think it's going to give hope to the listeners that maybe if we hang with them long enough and keep them around, they're going to be an incredible solution for what we're facing down the pike. Yeah.

Doug Smith:

Yeah, absolutely. You you made this one statement in the book that I loved. You said uh the age of authority is going down while the age of maturity is going up. And I would love for you to repeat that, but talk about that because I thought that was so, so good.

Tim Elmore:

Yeah, thank you. It's it was kind of the basis for the book. Uh, that's chapter one, in fact. But um, I call it the Peter Pan Paradox. So I'm pretty sure everybody listening is remembers the character of Peter Pan. It was a Disney animated classic and a book and so forth. But if you remember Peter Pan listeners, he was this winsome character that flew across London and sprinkled pixie dust everywhere and magical things happened. The other side of the coin was he didn't want to grow up. He wanted to live a never land. Remember that? Where boys don't have to become men. So this is an over speak, but here's the deal. I think something magic and tragic is happening in culture today. The age of authority is indeed going down, meaning they're coming in with some authority that doesn't require a title. They know stuff, they've been on portable devices their entire life since age four. And so I think they have visibility on the future more than I do. They will help me understand tomorrow's consumer. They are so intuitive when it comes to AI. 42% of companies in America say they're using Gen Zers to help them with AI and their business. And and I will also add one more comment if you don't mind me waxing eloquent. I have found, and I'm smiling as I say this, Generation Z is gonna make me a better leader because they're not gonna put up with a BS that passed generation, you know, where we just said, Oh, that's Bob. He just he leads that way. I think they're gonna not put up with it. So age of authority is going down. At the same time, the age of maturity seems to be going up. So educators and employers both are saying things like, 26 is the new 18. You follow that? Yeah. What we once expected at 18, you're a woman now, let's let's be responsible. You're a man now, let's take initiative. We might expect it later and later. They're growing up socially and emotionally later than former generations, right? When we need them, they might be showing up 10 minutes late in flip-flops, earbuds in, and we're going, hello, hello. Now, I'm not, I'm not, I don't mean to stereotype, but you can imagine how frustrating this is. The age of authority seems to be going down, darn it, but the age of maturity is going up, darn it. So here's my takeaway, Doug. I think we leaders are going to need to listen more than we ever used to listen to these young team members. But we're going to have to coach more than we ever used to coach. Wow.

Doug Smith:

I want to dive into both of those. Um, on the authority side, I mean, you just the things you were just spitting off. It was like, that's extremely valuable. How can we cultivate the good of Gen Z? And mentioned listening. Yeah, what do leaders need to be aware of there?

Tim Elmore:

Okay, wow. Well, it might be good. I I want to start with understanding. I have written all my life, 40, 40 books now, where I've tried to help an older generation, whether you're an educator or employer, or a parent for that matter, really understand the next gen better. So um, I coined a term some years ago and I did a book called Artificial Maturity. It's just helpful to know what's happening to kids because they're about to enter adulthood and our workplace. So, what I mean by artificial maturity, it sounds so derogatory, please forgive me, but it's not their fault. They're growing up in a culture that we adults built for them. So um, kids today are overexposed to information far earlier than they're ready. But kids are underexposed to firsthand experiences later than they're ready. Does that make sense? So they're four years old, they're on a tablet getting God knows what they're taking in, you know. But at the same time, uh, we're not sending them to work early on. I was working a job when I was 12 years old, you know, and throwing newspapers on a driveway that I cooked hamburgers at 16. And I don't think I'm brilliant, but that's just what everybody did. Now parents might be saying, focus on academics. Don't get a job, focus on academics. And so their career may begin, and their first full-time job is this career. So I feel like we need to be a little bit more compassionate and empathetic, but that's why we might we might need to onboard them in a longer process to help them really get ready for the workroom. The classroom does not necessarily prepare them for the workroom that's coming in their career.

Doug Smith:

Wow. I'm curious. I'm a father of five. I have five kids under nine years old. My gosh. Okay. I could be hearing what I want to hear, but uh do you how much of this do you feel like is is just parents' fault?

Tim Elmore:

Ah, yeah. Well, I imagine you're a pretty darn good dad if it just uh but here's what I would say. Some of it is our fault, but it's because we got ambushed by what was happening in culture. For instance, my parents raised me many decades ago, and they didn't have to be as intentional. I mean, you you went out, skinned your knee, broke your leg, whatever, and we let that happen back then. And you know what I learned? Life lessons from skinning mighty. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Today, I feel like uh there is a fear-based parenting thing going on where we're so afraid for our children. You know, they might be abducted, they might be, you know, this might happen, that might happen. So here's what I say. I think we risk too little, we rescue too quickly, and we rave too easily. All of those are natural mistakes. I mean, we do them naturally. We want to, you know, praise them and we want to not, we want to keep them safe. But when we risk too little, I think we're afraid for their safety. When we rescue too quickly, we're afraid for their status. We don't want their status in school to go down. If they forgot their gym clothes, so we need to rush it down and rescue them. And then when we rave too easily, I think we're afraid for their self-esteem. So so we tell them they're awesome for putting the fork in the dishwasher. When really what we ought to say is, thank you, son. All of us put our fork in the dishwasher. Thanks for being a part of our family. And I know that sounds so cliche, but I think we err trying to do the right thing. And I think we've not prepared them. We've done a better job protecting than preparing this generation of young people. Yeah.

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Doug Smith:

I know this isn't solely focused on parenting, but what advice do you have for our parents who are equipping the next generation to actually uh would you say that our goal should be to lower that age of maturity where they are mature and ready? And and if so, how can we how can we do that?

Tim Elmore:

Yeah, wow. Well, I I uh I'm just one voice, but I have been doing this for 45 years now. I was watching the baby boomers come into their career. I'm one of them, and then I watched the Xers and then the Millennials, and now Gen Z, and soon it will be the Alpha. Your children are alpha generation kids, Doug. So um, while the Millennials grew up with a cell phone, Gen Z grew up with a smartphone, the alpha gen are going to be growing up with AI. So it's it's it is crazy. So it got almost enough to make you scared. So let me offer a few tips to moms and dads who are also maybe leading outside the home. You're also leading your home.

Doug Smith:

Yeah.

Tim Elmore:

I put together some actionable items for me as a dad years ago as I was raising my kids, as my wife and I were raising our kids. So here's a quick list. I think one thing that helps kids grow up is to allow them to do something scary. Kids today are so over-supervised, and it's all well-intentioned, but we so supervise them. There's rarely a pickup basketball game going on. You know, it's that we're all super parents need to be there to supervise. But I'm meant, didn't we learn conflict resolution when it was a pickup game and it was only kids there? So do something scary. I'll tell you what I did. I took my son out of town, we rented a car, and I had him drive a car when he was 14 years old. Now, I I didn't do it out on the public roads because that would be illegal, but we were in a parking lot and he goes, Dad, I don't know if I can do this. I said, Show me, show me what you can do. Well, he drove a car in a parking lot. And I was trying to say, Jonathan, this is how you're gonna feel becoming a man. You're not gonna feel like you know what you're doing, but it's in you to do this. So do something scary. There's something inside of us as kids that longs to do something where the adrenaline flows and there's no guarantee it's gonna turn out well, and we just do it, you know? So do something scary. Here's another one meet someone significant. I had our kids meet some very important people. Now everybody's important, but I remember flying my daughter up to Washington, D.C. It was the National Day of Prayer. It was, you know, where congressmen and so forth meet, and I wanted her to meet some senators and congresspeople and shake their hand. And I think she was like nine years, nine or ten years old. She looked up in the eye of that congressman and said, Hi, I'm Bethany, shook their hand. I said, Beth, you have any questions for them? She had a question ready, but I'm telling you, she got really good with her EQ by just by just doing that. Here's another one. Travel someplace new. If you can, if you've got the money, listeners, find someplace that's far away, not next state over or you know, whatever. But try to go someplace that they don't know a soul. In fact, if it's another country, like let's say you go to Jamaica or whatever, where they go, ooh, these people look different, they talk different, you know. Isn't it true when you're overseas? It's like an education. And um, I just felt like our kids matured as they went someplace too. Uh one more I'll give you real fast. This is this is gold, yeah. Okay, good. Well, I know this is not a parent thing, but here's another thing I had my kids do that helped them grow up have them work and wait for something they want. Work and wait for something they want. We do live in a day of instant gratification, it's on demand, instant access. So um, I did this with both of my kids, but let me tell you a quick story about my friend David. He's a dad of Nick, who was the same age as my son. And Nick was growing up years ago. Remember the iPod? Remember when we had iPods? Okay. So there was a brand new iPod that just came out from Apple, and it was so cool. Well, Nick went into an Apple store and there was one more left. His dad, David, was with him. He goes, Dad, I gotta get this iPod. This is the last one left. We gotta get it. And David later told me, he said, Tim, I knew I could reach in my wallet, pull out a credit card, and get it for my son. But he also said, I knew that wasn't the best thing for him to just buy him stuff. So here's what David did that was so wise. David said, Nick, how much money you got? And of course, Nick said, Zero. I got zero. So David said, I'll tell you what I'm gonna do, Nick. I'm gonna get that iPod, but it but I'm getting it. And so I'm gonna store it away out of reach. And over the next several months, I want you to work and earn some money, and it's kind of a layaway plan. You're gonna pay me each month until you've you've paid off that iPod and you've got it, and it's yours. Now, what I love about this is he secured that iPod because it was the last one left. He was kind enough to say, I know you really want this. But he also knew Nick's gonna be way more grateful if he has to work and wait for something he wants. So those are hard things to do. But I'm telling you, even our young employees sometimes need to learn these same lessons. And so I just feel like part of our job is maybe we need to reparent that young Gen Zier on the team.

Doug Smith:

That's what that's what I I actually want to segue and transition. I remember Henry Cloud, I don't know if he tweeted this or where I got, but he said, we all need mothering and fathering, and it rarely comes from our biological parents. Find it. And I feel like as leaders, you're talking about leading the next generation. How much of the next generation literally just needs mothered and fathered? And is that appropriate for us to do as leaders in our organization?

Tim Elmore:

Yeah, great question. Well, we we should not overdo it because we're not literally their dad. But I'll be honest with you, I have led and loved so many of our 20-somethings on our team like a father. And and sometimes I would even say, hey, I love you like a son, but notice like a son, you don't fire your son, right? And sometimes you might need to let one of them go. But but I don't think that's wrong because I really truly believe after I've done quantitative and qualitative research on these Gen Z members, 21 focus groups from California to Georgia, they really are lonely and they do need to be loved. And I think if I lean in and show them I truly care about them, they tend to lean in and care about the job more. Uh so maybe they don't feel like they're caring about the job very much, but I think if we'll lean in first and say, hey, I care about you as a person, not just a worker, it could make a whole difference in their job. So my answer is yes, do care beyond the job, beyond five o'clock, but um, but also be sure you're balanced and healthy, where the there they don't realize I gotta perform here or I may not last long here. I think that's important too. Yeah. Yeah.

Doug Smith:

Are there other models you've seen or advice you'd give for leaders to help in that maturing process? I don't know if you know it would be wise for leaders to gather all the Gen Zers together and do leadership lessons once a month. What were some tactical things we can do to equip these guys?

Tim Elmore:

Well, I do think onboarding may take longer. So um I think we need to have special conversations about uh your career is gonna be on a crock pot, not a microwave, right? So it's you're not gonna be VP when you're 24, probably. But some of them expect that. They have unrealistic expectations. Wow. So so those conversations are necessary. But let me tell you what um Orange Leaf Frozen Yogurt did. They were a little frustrated at how quickly Gen Z kids would quit the job. You know, they'd hire them, and a year to a year and a half later, they were they were resigning. And that got frustrating because it's you know, you spend money and time uh interviewing, onboarding, and getting them ready, and then they leave. So they decided, and this is genius, I think, if we're hiring young people like 16 to 24 years old, let's make this job we're hiring them to do to be the best first job they could possibly have. That's now you can see what's implied by that. They were saying in the job interview, hey, we realize you may not be with us 20 years, maybe not even 10 years, maybe not even five years, but we want to make this a launching pad for your career. So, what would you like to learn while you're here? Well, the Gen Zer suddenly felt cared for, like you want to help me get better, and even if I'm not here, that went that was huge. That was just huge. But then the Gen Z might say in the job interview, Well, gosh, I'd I'd love to learn marketing. Oh, the hiring manager might say, You need to meet Susan. She's the queen of marketing, she does all of our marketing. I'm gonna set up a meeting with you and Susan to learn marketing. Or they might say, Well, I want to learn finance and bookkeeping. Oh, you need to meet Hal. Hal's our book, you'll love him. He'll as they started investing in these young people, you know what they found out? They stayed because they were getting mentored, not just managed. So I would say to listeners, think mentor, not manage, and you're probably going to keep them longer. Yeah.

Doug Smith:

That's so good. You mentioned earlier on on the upside, just that the authority has gone higher. They have so much to teach us, they get things quicker, they know technology. And you said you made the statement we need to listen like we've never listened before, which I think can be a challenge for a lot of us as leaders. Yes. How how can we listen to them where they actually feel like you said cared for, but that they also have a voice?

Tim Elmore:

Ah, wow. Well, I think the first step is to set expectations. Uh, far too many companies that I either speak to or coach don't do that well enough. And so an unrealistic expectation comes in. So you need to have those conversations. Here would be the topics of some of those conversations. We say to our new young employees, everyone has a voice, not everyone has a vote. You see the difference? Oh, yeah. So everybody we want everybody to feel heard, but we're not going to do it, we're not taking a vote to see whether we're gonna paint the walls blue or whatever. Um the directors, the leaders still need to have the vote. Uh, we would say to our young people everyone. One is more important than their job. But no one is more important than the mission. You see the difference? Yeah. So we care for you as a human being. But no one of us, including the boss, is more important than the mission we're trying to accomplish. So I'll tell you how we live this out, Doug. One of our young ladies on our team was in a toxic relationship with her boyfriend. And I mean, when I say toxic, it was abusive. And when we discovered that she was being abused, we shut down our office for a day and we ran over, got a U-Haul, and we moved her out of that apartment and we got her moved into a safe place. That's amazing. Well, she felt loved. And I'm telling you, you might say, Oh, you didn't get any work done that day. Oh, we got work done that day. We bonded as a team. And she felt she felt cared for. And I think I think we just worked better the next day, you know? I bet. It was something that happened. So I think it's important that we um really do show that we care. And and listeners, if you got to fake it till you make it, then do so. But I just believe we're gonna have to shift because they see authority differently. We might say, as leaders, well, my position gives me the right to influence. I'm the president. They might say, your connection gives you the right to influence. Now both are true. Both are true. But they're coming in saying, Would you connect with me? Would you connect before you correct? You know, that sort of thing. Uh we would say the leader's a gatekeeper, not literally, but you know what I'm saying. We're the gatekeeper of the budget and the personnel and the, you know, the plans of tomorrow. They would say the leader's a guide. Please be a guide, not a gatekeeper. Be a Sherpa guide, lead me up the mountain and take my arm and take me with you. All of that may sound very syrupy, but I'm telling you the companies that hold on to good ones are doing this very, very, very well.

Doug Smith:

Yeah, you also you also mentioned, I thought that it was interesting. You said they're not going to put up with stuff that we put up with. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Talk more about that because I think leader, and again, we'll just say stuff and not even know we're saying it. We may have blind spots just culturally the way we were growing up different. Like, how can we even become aware of that? And what don't they put up with that we should be aware of?

Tim Elmore:

Yeah. Well, um, when I say they don't put up with stuff or BS or whatever you want to call it, we have ways of just maybe barking out orders or giving direction or whatever. Uh what I found out as I research for research for this book, Doug, was that um the majority, now this is 56%, the majority of Gen Zers make up their mind of whether they're going to stay at this job on day one. Now that's not fair, but it's true. It's not fair, but it's true. So I would say make their first day, their first week unforgettable. And I'm not saying I I don't know how this comes across listeners, but we have decided to make that first day unforgettable. That their name is is on a uh lit up you know board uh in the lobby, uh, that they've come to their cubicle or whatever, and there's a message from the president there, and maybe there's uh their favorite candy, because we found that out in their interview process, their favorite candy bars there, but they go, Oh my gosh, this this is this is for me. I belong here. Um, they long for a culture of belonging. And the sooner we can communicate that they do belong, the better off we're gonna be. I'm not sure if that answers your question well, but I think that's gonna be key that we communicate that to them.

Doug Smith:

Yeah, you talk a lot about mental health in the book as well, which I thought was interesting. You know, you mentioned the the woman that you had on staff who was being abused. Now, again, yeah, people were going through all kinds of things, and we're not even aware of what advice do you have for leaders when it comes to mental health? Because it's certainly a hot topic.

Tim Elmore:

Yeah. If you are a leader that's um, if you were honest, you'd admit you're a little bit old school, think like thinking you guys are just a bunch of fragile snowflakes, sucking up buttercup. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah. I'll admit that comes across my mind once in a while. I'm thinking, just just show me some discipline, just show me some, you know, agility and so forth. Are you fragile rather than agile? You know, I mean, all these cliches. But um, here's what I would say. I have learned over time that the mental health problems that they face are very real. They're not made up. Um, 94% of college students in America say the number one word they use to describe their life is the word overwhelmed. 44% say they're so overwhelmed it's difficult to function. So think about it. It's a young person, 21 years old, they're so overwhelmed it's difficult to function. So they might be tempted to call in and say, I won't be at work today. I need a mental health day. And you're going, you what? We've got, we got to go to market this week. This is, we got a product we're releasing. What are you doing? But just know that might happen. Now, I will admit there's plenty of days I didn't feel like I was my best self and I still came in. But I think we need to lean in and listen. So I have an acronym. I have an entire chapter on this in the new book. It's Doug, it's a leg. You may have heard me say this to our dear friend Jeff Hancher on his podcast, but a leg, you know how we've said for years and years and years, this is a leg you got to stand on. And that means, okay, you can go to the bank on this one. A-L-E-G reminds me of the four steps I try to follow if I'm meeting with a team member who's young and maybe a bit fragile, maybe is struggling with her mental health. And what I want to do is say, suck it up, buttercup, but I know that's not going to get to the result I want. So the letter A is I need to start by asking, not telling. If they've done something wrong, they don't need me to say, I was wrong. Here's what you need to do. That might be true, but I need to start with, hey, what was the thought process you process you used when you made that decision? When I ask somebody about themselves or their thought process, they feel valued. It just naturally. The letter L, I gotta listen then. Does a little good to ask if we're not gonna listen to what we've asked them to share. When I listen, they feel heard. And this is a big request of Gen Zers. I want to be heard. Letter E, empathize. So this is a whole thing I have learned, gosh, over the last five to ten years, and I'm old right now. But empathizing, Doug, when I empathize, they feel understood. So I had to learn to find ways to say, oh my gosh, I had no idea that happened to you. Or I bet that made you feel awful when that when that occurred. Do you see how I'm saying that and I'm letting them know, oh, I'm hearing you and I'm getting what you're saying here. So think about it. Ask, they feel valued, listen, they feel heard, empathize, empathize, they feel understood. Then I've earned my right to practice the letter G, which is to guide them. And that's what I wanted to do from the first. But but here's what I'm saying: I took 10 minutes. I know it's a lot of time, boss, but I took 10 minutes and I earned my right to do it through a bridge I built, not a badge I wear. And that is key to Gen Z.

Doug Smith:

I love that. I want to start to dive into a few other subjects, but is there anything else you want to share about the book or from the book?

Tim Elmore:

Uh well, just the overarching thing I would share if I was sitting down and having coffee with you right now is they do view authority very differently. They're growing up in a time where culture itself is cynical about the government, cynical about corporate America, cynical about religious institutions, unfortunately, cynical about higher ed. You know, I pay Buco bucks to go to college, and you're not guaranteeing me a job when I've done, are you kidding me? So just know they see authority differently, traditional authority, and we need to lean in and earn our right to be trusted, just like we might say the same thing to them. So that would be the the big deal that I would say it's good to know for for Gen Z. Yeah.

Doug Smith:

Yeah. Last question on the next gen, you've you've given your life, you said I think over 44 years. Yeah. Basically to the next generation into leaders. But why have you done that and and what's the impact been on you when you're seeing this next generation?

Tim Elmore:

Well, it was a it was a strategic decision, even though I was very young when I made it. Uh, but I thought, okay, if I'm gonna if I'm gonna change the world, I know that's very pithy, but if I'm gonna make a difference in the world, not just a dollar, and I'm gonna change the world, I probably should pick a target audience that's gonna be around a while, which means Young people. That's funny. I also want to pick a group of people that are actually moldable and shapeable, which is more likely young people than people who are 55 or 60, right? Who are kind of stuck in their ways. So uh they're idealistic, they're still moldable, uh, they want to change the world. Their brain, here's something interesting about a young brain. Uh we don't really have a fully mature brain until we're 25 or 26 years old. So the part of our brains that calculates the rewards for doing something risky is well developed, more so than the part of the brain that that calculates the risk, which explains why a teenage boy might take a skateboard off a cliff because it's gonna be awesome on YouTube, you know. Little did he think, oh, I may have six broken bones at the bottom of this clip. But listen, I want a worker that says, let's do this. I'm gonna not be afraid to make a mistake. Kids today not only have FOMO, fear of missing out, they have FOMU. I'm hearing this from young people, fear of messing up. They're so afraid of getting something wrong. And I'm going, no, taking risks is part of growing up. So that would be what I would say to that. I chose, I've got to work with the next gen because if we're gonna move the needle, I probably need to start where they're gonna be around 40 years or 35 years to really make this difference that we need to make in this world we live in.

Doug Smith:

And Tim and on those lines, do you have any advice for us as leaders who may want to pour into the next generation but aren't sure where to start? I see a lot of senior leaders who have so much wisdom, so much experience, and they're longing to give it away to the next generation, but they're saying, like, I have no idea how to even talk to them, like where do I find them? What do I do? Any any advice there for how we can intentionally disciple and/or equip the next generation? Yeah, absolutely.

Tim Elmore:

I have two big thoughts. They're both quick. Uh, the first one is um we need to assume the right mindset with them. I think sometimes our words are correct, but our body language screams, I don't really believe in you. I don't think you're gonna pull this off after, you know, that sort of thing. Yeah. So begin with belief. Don't gaslight. I think I've been guilty of gaslighting, which is basically making them feel ashamed for even feeling what they're feeling or not knowing what they ought to know. I think we do this far too often. I think we need to enter a relationship with them, these young people, with high expectation and high belief. The next thing I would say, well, no, let me on the heels of that. Um, David Yeager out of University of Texas at Austin uh says that we often have one of three mindsets, and this is what I'm trying to say, but he puts it in three words. We either uh relate to those young adults with an enforcer mindset, a protector mindset, or a mentor mindset. And I'm pushing for mentor. So think about the enforcer mindset. The enforcer mindset looks at that 22-year-old young professional and says, internally, we say, I don't think they're gonna cut it. And so we just enforce the standards. And they can tell we don't really believe in them. We can tell we're enforcing these standards, just almost hoping they don't measure up. You know, that's not gonna win. The protector mindset is the opposite. We see that young person who's so stressed out, we don't want to add more stress to them. So we're protecting them from the challenges that come with that job. The mentor mindset says, This is hard, but I believe it's in you to do this. So high expectation, high belief, that's our answer. Uh, and that's where I'll stop on that one. I just think we need to do this. Now, the actual task I'm challenging you to do is reverse mentoring. Reverse mentoring. So this is where younger and older meet together. So make sure if you can, try to get at least 10 years difference. You know, if they're 22 and you're 32, you you qualify, or 42 or 52, you really qualify. But um, I'll meet with Andrew, who's 30 years younger than me, or Cam, who's 40 years younger than me. And um, I talk about reverse mentoring. So they've heard me say this now for years. So both of us check our egos and logos at the door. You hear what I just said? So check your ego. That means older person, you're gonna be learning something from a young, young whippersnapper, right? And check your logo too. Just be humans meeting together. Not representing the brand here. And then the first thing I challenge you to do is just swap stories. You'll always find something in common when you swap stories. Always. And then clearly the older person imparts to the younger, but then you trade hats, so to speak, and you let them impart to you. Remember, the H authority is going down. So you're coaching them where they need to be coached, but you're saying something to them like, hey, tell me how the latest app you just got on your iPhone. How could we use that for marketing? Or, you know, something like that, where they would know stuff that you may not know. 42% of companies in America are leveraging Gen Z to help them with AI. That's reverse mentoring. So I would give that as a homework assignment. Enter into reverse mentoring and just see the magic that might just happen at your workplace.

Doug Smith:

That's so good. And just thank you on myself. I've been impacted by your work, but thank you on behalf of so many in the next generation that you've impacted through 44 years of faithfulness, man. That's awesome. Well, thanks. So thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Um, a few other fun questions before we wrap up. One, I always have to ask, I know John Maxwell's had a huge impact on your life. You've worked with John. He's probably been the most influential person in my life since I was 18 years old. I'm just curious, you know, being so close to him. Yeah. What's one thing you've learned from being with John over decades?

Tim Elmore:

Wow. You know, I think the number one quality, leadership quality, was believe it or not, emotional security. Uh, John is a strong leader, clearly. But what he modeled for me, and by the way, I started with him, Doug, right out of college. So early 80s. John was a very secure, it still is, a very secure leader. I saw him take hits from people that were complaining about him or quitting or whatever. And and he didn't meet with us and say, well, let me tell you why they left. It was really uh, you know, this. Um, he just took hits. He was secure enough to um stick it out without maligning anybody's character. I know sometimes people needed to be let go, and he did so, but he let them say, hey, it was a mutual decision. Uh I just love that. So I feel like the the power of emotional intelligence is what John brought. He was self-aware, he he managed himself and his emotions, he was socially aware, and he he managed his relationship so, so, so well. So, and then the actionable item was I watched him confront people, and he never shrunk from that. He was tough enough to sit down and just run to the roar. You know, there's trouble here. And I'm gonna meet with this person and we're gonna figure it out. And John was mentoring me, so I sat in on some of those meetings. And oh my gosh, I had never seen that before. I saw mortals, mere mortals, you know, who would run from conflict. You know, we're we're avoiding the hard conversation. So I would say that would be my answer. I I every time I'm with him, I hug him and I say, John, you got stock in all the leadership good that I've ever done. And thank you for modeling secure leadership along the way. It was a game changer for me. Yeah. I love that. Love that.

Doug Smith:

Um, I'm gonna talk about writing a little bit. You said over 40 books you've written. Is that the running totem?

Tim Elmore:

Yeah, yeah.

Doug Smith:

It's amazing. And I know you also have a how to I don't know if this is the exact title, but how to write a book workshop.

Tim Elmore:

Yeah, we call it a book in a weekend. Book in a weekend, there it is. Yeah, book in a weekend. So we try to help aspiring authors get that proposal done, the manuscript done. We expose them to publishers. We even have a Shark Tank on that weekend, and they get to pitch their book to publishers, and one person gets a book deal uh every time we do it. So it's a fun. That's where I met Jeff Hanser. Yeah. He was the original winner, right? Winner. He was, yeah. So a book and a weekend is that author's uh time. It's actually a year of coaching, just to be clear. Okay. We start with a weekend together in Atlanta, and then we have a year of monthly coaching where we help them make sure they get the book done. So yeah, we have one spot left. Uh, February 27th, 2026. Um, if if um you are interested, you can go to a bookinaweekend.com and you can see what's laid out. Uh, but the year-long journey is uh is just a life-changing one, and we've had so much fun the last couple of shifts.

Doug Smith:

Yeah, any advice for aspiring authors? I mean, I'm I imagine the advice is if you have it. So for me, it's like I feel like Mark, I don't know even Mark Patterson, but it took him forever to write his first book, and obviously he's had major success afterwards. Like I actually have a book written. I just haven't even I've done nothing with it. I'm like, I'm the person that just can't get it over the finish line. What advice do you have just for aspiring authors? Do we need that mutual accountability in a weekend like this? What would you say? I I think so.

Tim Elmore:

Even if it's not what I do, I can't usually books don't get done without accountability. Um, I don't know if you know the story of Victor Hugo, but he wrote masterpieces, play, you know, uh Le Miz, uh KL, uh uh Hunchback of Notre Dame. Crazy, crazy cool. Lived back in the 1800s. He would start books and not finish them over and over and over until he realized it was because he got distracted by his gardening. He loved to garden. And then he would go to the pub and just get distracted with his friends. So here's what he did. This is crazy, Doug. You're gonna love this. Victor Hugo had a had a servant, uh, you know, a paid servant, and he said, When I go to bed at night, I want you to walk in my room and steal my clothes. He said, I won't leave my room if I'm in my underwear tomorrow. And that will force me to write. He did this, and he finished Le Miz that way. Wow. Isn't that something? That's what find some way to have somebody hold you accountable.

Doug Smith:

I'll talk with my wife when I get home today. Yes. There you go. There you go. Oh, that's beautiful. Yeah that's the same thing on speaking. You've you've got to speak in front of some of the largest companies on earth and have just been speaking to leaders your whole career. I know there's a lot of aspiring speakers here as well listening to this. What advice do you have for speakers as far as getting out there, getting on stages in today's world?

Tim Elmore:

Yeah. Well, the key is differentiation, meaning there are so many speakers. It's a very crowded space. But if you can somehow differentiate yourself in what you're saying or how you're saying it, those will set you apart. So when I did the best-selling books that I've written are Habitudes, images that form leadership, habits, and attitudes. It's a way of teaching a timeless principle with the power of a picture. So what I'm saying is not new. These are timeless principles that have been said forever, but the way I said it, with an image totally different. Three and a half million copies. So I would say differentiation is key. The other thing I would say is if you want to speak, just get your reps in. Offer to speak for free at first, and just get your reps in over and over and over, get better and better and better. Uh, I think that that's what I did when I began. I didn't get paid a dime, but I just wanted to get my repetitions in. And then the other thing I'd say to communicators is so often we try to say too much in a talk. So what I walk by a simple rule of thumb when I speak. Give them a point for their head, a picture for their heart, and a practice for their hands. In a speech, whatever time you got, 15 minutes, hour, a point. Here's the big idea: point for your head, picture for your heart. Here's a story, here's how it looks in real life, and then a practice for their hands. Here's a step you can take to practice what I just told you. That seems to be a pretty good formula for succeeding.

Doug Smith:

That's so good. I try to give people a gallon when they need a teaspoon. So I do too. I'm guilty. I'm guilty. Yeah. The way you broke that down was absolutely beautiful. Uh, with a few minutes we have left, I want to take you through the lightning round since you haven't been on the podcast before. Just a bunch of fun questions. Yeah. And the first one is what is the best advice you've ever received and who gave it to you?

Tim Elmore:

Wow. Okay, I'm thinking of two real quick. One is John Maxwell. John has said so many things and then modeled them afterwards that he has shaped me. Outside of my mom and dad, he has had the greatest influence on me. And I spent 20 years with him before I started. Started my own organization. John would say this over and over and over, and I think this stuck with me and changed the way I live my life. Pay now, play later. Or play now, pay later. It works both ways. So I learned to put off that fun, gratifying, pleasurable experience and do that. So pay now, play later, or play now, pay later. The other one was from Tim Desopoulos. He's another mentor of mine. Tim just resigned as the president of Chick-fil-A. And Tim served on our board for years and years. But Tim said something to me that changed the way I do leadership. He said, The further out you can see into the future, the better the decision you make today. The further out you see into the future. Yeah. So if I'm making a decision just for pleasure this weekend, I'm probably going to make a lousy decision. It'll be fun now. It will not help me later. But if I look into the future, think about it this if you've got kids, don't you want to teach your kids? Look out into the future. How will this decision you're about to make impact this? Is it go to the party or is it get your math finished or whatever? So those two guys, Tim and John, with those two statements, would be my answer.

Doug Smith:

I love that. Yeah, the pay now, play later. If you ask any, oh two of my two out of the my five kids are old enough. But yeah, I ask, hey, what do we do at home? We pay now. We play later. It's embedded. So so grateful for John. If you could put a quote on a billboard for everyone to read, what would it say? Oh my gosh.

Tim Elmore:

Well, outside of my faith, which plays the central role in the decisions I make in my life, uh, my relationship with God is is fundamental. Uh but if I could put on a billboard and it was just anything, here's what it would be. Think big picture. Think long term. Think high road. Think big picture. So see the big picture, not just your own life. Think long term. There's that look out into the future. How's this choice going to affect me? And then think high road. I think high road thinking means I'm going to treat others the way I would want to be treated, even if they don't treat me that way. And that's where my faith really comes into play. So big picture, long-term, high road would be what I would put on a billboard all across the USA.

Doug Smith:

Love it. What's a book, either all time or recently you've read that's impacted you in a meaningful way?

Tim Elmore:

Oh my goodness. I try to read two books a month. I would say, let me give you, let me give you two real quick. Uh, one of them, which may not be familiar to listeners right now, is a book called Leadership and Self-Deception. Yeah. Leadership and Self-Deception by the Arbinger Institute, group of psychologists. It's a parable. It it changes me every time I reread it. The other book is a more recent book, came out just a few years ago, called From Strength to Strength by Arthur Brooks. He is the most popular professor at Harvard University, and that book will help you transition uh from the first half of your life to the second half from strength to strength. Powerful, powerful book. I'd recommend it to anybody, and I do.

Doug Smith:

You talked about the power of introducing our kids to important people or, you know, great leaders. I'm curious, you've gotten to spend time with a ton of great leaders over the course of your life. Do you have a go-to question or two that you always ask when you get a meeting with a leader?

Tim Elmore:

Wow. You know, I think the answer may not be a great answer, but it's the answer to the question in reality, is um, what would you do differently if you could do it over again? That tends to give me wisdom right there. Because most of these leaders have achieved a lot, so they didn't do everything wrong, but that but boy, I always get an answer that's wise. So um, you know, that's just that's just huge. So that would be it. Yeah. How how would you do it differently if you could walk out of your company, walk back in and start completely over? What would you do?

Doug Smith:

Yeah. What's something you've done that you believe everyone should do, like bucket list item before they die?

Tim Elmore:

I would say something I mentioned earlier. Begin with belief when you meet with people. Um, I know you would expect me or someone to say that because it's the right answer, but I have met so many cynical people today, old and young. I had a team member uh some years ago that when I first met her, we started talking about this. And she goes, Oh my gosh, I'm totally the opposite of you. And I said, What do you what do you mean? And this young lady said, when I meet people, they start with an F, the gr a grade of F, and they have to earn an A. And I said, Oh my gosh, I'm just the opposite. They start with an A. They have to earn an F. But it has done me so well. I I have been served so well. Now, will some people let you down? Of course they will. But when I begin with belief, they tend to live up to that belief. My children, my friends, my spouse, I'm telling you, I just fare better when I begin with belief. And I would encourage everybody to let people start with an A rather rather than an F when you mate with them. I love that. Yeah.

Doug Smith:

Uh it's similar to your question, but if you could go back with yourself at any age and have coffee with yourself and you'd actually listen to that version of Tim, uh, what would you tell them and why?

Tim Elmore:

Well, yeah. Uh, I think it would be talking to myself in my young 20s, and I would talk to myself about courage. I was a mere mortal and still am, but I mean, I was a people pleaser at the beginning of my career, especially. So I would be more like a cow than a buffalo. You probably remember this metaphor where when a storm comes along, cows run away from the storm and they never can quite escape it. Buffaloes run right into the storm because they go, let's get this over with. I guess intuitively, instinctively, the buffalo runs into the storm. I would try to be a buffalo, run into the storm. John Maxwell showing me how to confront people right away, or at least within a day or two, was just so good for my courage levels to leap because it's really rarely ever as bad as you think it might be when you do that. So um I think that would be my answer. Yeah.

Doug Smith:

For all the uh all of us recovering people pleasers, myself included, any other advice that I like, I love just run into it as far as the confrontation. But anything else you learned as far as uh dealing with conflict for people pleasers through either John's modeling or what you've learned over the years?

Tim Elmore:

Well, um I would say if I've got conflict, I would go back to that acronym I shared before, a leg. Ask first. Don't start with they probably don't know what the heck they're talking about or whatever. Uh I want to ask first. Because you know what, Doug? Sometimes they give you an answer and you go, Oh, I'm so glad I didn't confront. I just learned something, you know? Oh, oh, I need to tell you a quick story. So in my focus groups with Gen Z, writing this book, The Future Begins with Z, I met with people in LA, Mississippi, Ohio, West Virginia, Georgia. So I'm meeting with one group out in California, and I said to these Gen Zers, you know, a lot of employers say you guys really don't want to work. You like to leave right at five o'clock, not a minute later. You don't even finish the task you're working on. What would you say to that? And I'll be honest, I had that thought. Do they really want to work? One young lady looked me right in the eye and said, Dr. Tim, can I share with you why I leave right at five? I said, Sure. She goes, I leave right at five because I have to rush over to another job. I don't make enough money to pay the bills here in LA at this first one. And then after that second job, I rush over to take care of my mother who has stage four cancer. Suddenly, my confrontation I thought I was about to have was, oh, I better keep my mouth shut and keep my ears open. And uh, it was just good for me. It was just good to not stereotype and to allow belief to lead the way. And that's that's where I want to live my life. Yeah.

Doug Smith:

That's so good. Yeah. My boss, when I first stepped into the role I'm currently in, he said, Doug, I want to tell you three beautiful words. Help me understand. That's all you should lead with. Every conversation you have, help me understand why you made that decision. Help me understand why you do that. It was uh that's been a game changer for me.

Tim Elmore:

It's beautiful. I love it.

Doug Smith:

So, last question, then I'll just leave it open-ended. But you've given your life away to the next generation. What do you want your legacy to be and what do you want to be remembered for? Oh, wow.

Tim Elmore:

Well, I've I've done this exercise that answers this question. I call it life sentence. Twenty years after we're all dead and gone, our name's gonna come up in a conversation. People that knew us at work or church or neighborhood, they're gonna say, What did he do or what did she do? And it may be quiet for a minute, because it has been 20 years, but somebody's gonna say, Oh, I remember he was the one who, or she was the one that and they're gonna summarize your entire contribution in life in one sentence. Darn it, you know. So legacy really is that life sentence. I call it life sentence. You're gonna get a sentence. What will that be? So for me, I want it to be he resourced millions of young leaders to solve problems and serve people. He resourced millions of young leaders to solve problems and serve people. I want to reach 1% of the young population of the world, which is 40 million people. And then the other, I have two instead of one. He equipped established leaders to connect with those younger generations because a lot of their input won't be directly from me. It's going to be from those I tried to equip. So I really want to equip those that I can leave behind when I'm dead and gone. And it's still going strong because they were all ready to continue on. Yeah.

Doug Smith:

That's beautiful. Well, Tim, thank you so much for your time today. This was extremely valuable. I really look forward to this, and you did not disappoint. And thanks for all the wisdom you shared.

Tim Elmore:

Thanks, Doug. Good to be with you.

Doug Smith:

Likewise. Well, leader, thank you so much for listening to my conversation with Dr. Tim. I hope that you enjoyed it as much as I did. You can find ways to connect with him in links below in the show description. So make sure you check that out. And as always, I want to thank our sponsor, Indosha Marketing Solutions. They are the producers of this podcast. And if your organization has any marketing needs at all, I really encourage you to check them out. They do incredible work. You can learn more at Indosha.com. That's A-N-D-O-C-I-A.com. And as always, leader, I like to end every episode with a quote. And I'll quote William James, who said this. He said, The greatest use of a life is to spend it on something that will outlast it. And I couldn't think of a more fitting quote with this episode. Let's invest in the next generation because they are gonna outlast us and let's leave the world better than we found it through them. So that's gonna wrap up today's episode, Leader. Remember, don't quit. Keep leading. The world desperately needs your leadership. I'll talk to you next episode.

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Doug Smith

Host
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Tim Elmore

Guest