This is episode six of season three in which I speak with Dan haggis of UK indie pop band, the wombats Welcome to the Art of longevity. Thanks for having me. So you're in Denver, you're going to be on stage later. So thanks for talking to me. First, I'm going to sort of help you just stay calm. Really? What do you like before a show? I mean, roughly most days look like do some interviews of some sorts, have some lunch, do a soundcheck maybe try and do some yoga or go for a walk around the local you know, wherever you are just to get a bit of fresh air and and just to stretch the body a little bit, then start getting ready for the gig you usually need like an hour before to start getting. Get your adrenaline's pumping a little bit in anticipation. Because if you go on stage, like, you know, without any warm up, it's a bit of a shock to the system and takes a few seconds to kind of get your head around what what on earth is going on. And what of your audience has been like on this US tour. When you stare out to the audience from behind the drumkit. There, what do you see?
Dan Haggis, Wombats:Just it's been amazing, actually, like just lots of smiling faces, and this sort of a few masks here. And they're still dotted around. But in general, yeah, it's just been people singing along and having a great time. And after these last couple of years of Obviously, everyone missing out on live music so much. There's just a palpable sense of like, Oh, finally, we're back in a room like singing with our friends and you know, shouting at the ceiling, kind of, and just having a great time, which is what our live shows are kind of all about really singing the blues away. Yeah. And it's good for you three to be together again, I suppose. Because that must have been a while as well, before you got on this tour. Oh, yeah. The first time we played together was just before reading leads, like in the summer. And even when we started, we just had some rehearsals before it because yeah, we haven't played together for two years to the day, since we've supported the stones and like, as a band since we started 20 years ago. And even before that, we you know, we were in other projects and stuff. We never went more than probably like, two weeks, three weeks, maybe without doing some kind of music together or you know, whether it's a show or rehearsal or writing or whatever. So to go two years was pretty mad. So that first rehearsal back I remember like we all had proper goose bumps which you do get that sometimes, but it was it was so much more powerful than it had ever been. That's good to hear what I mean, congratulations because you've bounced back. You've really bounced back, haven't you? Because you had a number one album in the UK. You're obviously riding high and joining the tour in the USA. I mean, you're not doing bad in your 20th year or just about your 20th year. I was really keen to get you on you're in fact the youngest band. I think I've had on the show so far. You know, because it's about longevity. So I tend to be talking to two bands that have been around for a while.
Keith Jopling:But I think you're unlikely, in a way to be a candidates to be here. According to some we're not going to say who but I mean, a lot of people were writing you off, weren't there back in the early days? So how does it feel?
Dan Haggis, Wombats:What you say it kind of reminds me of when we did our first gig down in London. So for the first three years of the band, you know, we were just playing in Liverpool, you know, booking our own shows going in with like, demo tapes and CDs and stuff, and, you know, old, old school. And I remember the first gig we did in London, you know, we were all dead excited. And, you know, you get this thing of like, oh, and maybe some a&r people, and we'll get signed. And you know, you don't really know what that looks like, or what it is when you 1920. But you know, in your mind, you're like, maybe these are the gate, these are the gatekeepers to like, making it, whatever that means. And we went there. And I remember doing an interview afterwards with this, like, little magazine or whatever. And the guy was, like, I nearly didn't come down and see you guys, you know, my editor told me to come and see, but I saw that you were called the wombats. And I just thought they must be a bit of a joke band. And I nearly didn't come down. And he was like, but I'm so glad I came to the gig. Absolutely love that. Like, I'm really surprised. And I think for me, that just sums up a lot of people's attitudes, where they're just like, oh, the one that's I, you know, whatever. And you get all these phrases getting bandied around, like in the landfill, and all this stuff. And like, you know, you first read some, like, you know, critique, whatever, it's a bit like, ah, and then if they get like, well, it's not for them, obviously, because music is so subjective anyway, so I think it was kind of water off a duck's back, like, you have the occasional one where you're like, Oh, that's a bit harsh. Like we've got, you know, we've got so much work in this and like, we love it. So. But anyway, for us, we kind of realized early on that the only way we were going to sort of make it was just by doing just keeping going ourselves. So like, we didn't get signed for those first few years. But we built it up to a point where like, we saw that the academy won in Liverpool, which is like 1000 people without being signed just from having some songs on MySpace and passing demos around in schools and stuff. And like unsane, we just started building up this, we were like, well, we can't sit around and wait forever for labels to come and make it happen. So we're just gonna have to do it. And we love playing live so much. We just kept saying to our manager, book, gigs, book, gigs, book gigs. And eventually it worked out. And I think that's that kind of ethos has stood us in really good stead for everything that's come since then. So every album, we put out whether you get good reviews, or bad reviews, it's just kind of irrelevant, because for us, it was just, we just hit the road, do what we love, and kind of where the music really comes to life that shows and just keep convincing people like one fan at a time when they come to a show like, Ah, that was really fun. Had a great night, which ultimately is what live music is all about, isn't it, it's about enjoying yourself or, or feeling something having goosebumps, all those feelings that you get from live music and connection and all the rest of it. And just little by little it seems to have permeated through enough people's like consciences to go Oh, right. Okay, the one that's No, I've had a great night out when I was 20. Or when I was 25 or 30, you know. And now there's groups of people who are like, all their friends, you know, love the band, or their kids now come along to the gigs. And you really start noticing things like that. It's like little kids with their parents and the kids are jumping up and down. And the parents are jumping up and down. And it's kind of WoW, hadn't noticed this before.
Keith Jopling:Yeah, you're cross generational, which I want to come on to, because I think that's one of the secrets of your success. However, you've done it. So you might have a theory on how you did it. But yeah, it's interesting to hear you kind of mentioned the early days, I've seen many anxious artists checking the guest list and seeing whether the label guy is going to be there and a whole of that, and it's it's all very needy, and it's changed a lot as you say, you can just take control of your own destiny in a way these days. But it's still very hard work. And it still takes 20 years in your case. But let's just come right back to now. So fix yourself, not the world deserve a lead number one. I mean, I've been really enjoying this album, I have to say, because it starts out well enough, you know, it's like three or four real bangers at the start. And then I don't know when it gets to method to the madness for me, it sort of changes a little bit, then it gets better. So the real motor on this record. So congratulations. Thanks so much. It must be great to play these songs live.
Dan Haggis, Wombats:Oh, yeah, it's been amazing because we wrote about half of the album pre pandemic where we were in the same room together. And then the other half when we weren't and we actually recorded the whole album like you know, in it's the way it is now remotely. The first time we played the songs together was for these shows, which is an unusual feeling kind of finally hearing it all come together and it's finally you know, and it's all tied in with not necessarily musically but the the relief of playing the songs live is so much as I said before, so much more powerful because of the fact we didn't get to play them for the album, almost, you know. So it's got an extra special, like, we've come through this, you know, to kind of like, the represents everything we've been through. But yeah, and I feel like the actually, the method to the madness means I was saying yesterday, it's like, that's one of the new songs when we play it live, it's like, it just feels like so special, the journey of the song where it goes and when it kicks in at the end, and like how the, the crowd got on this little journey with you and stuff. And it's just like such a, you know, whether there's a mosh pit going or people just punch in the air, you can see people like really shouting along with the words at the end, kind of that sense of like, we got through this, like, whether it's the pandemic, or some of the struggle people have been having, it's like, it feels like a special moment, sort
Keith Jopling:of turned into being quite an anthem, doesn't it and unlikely anthem in a way and that that song is about your process of making it as a band, isn't it? I actually noticed some of the lyrics to a foot my sadness faqeer roleplay no construction, I'll build it my own way. No subscribing, no reviews, it is basically about your journey, isn't it. But
Dan Haggis, Wombats:it's a journey. In some respects, it's kind of the whole first part of it is like about nursing, honeymoon with his wife in Barcelona and how things didn't go exactly to plan or whatever with the honeymoon. And it's just letting go basically, and I think the letting go aspect, which obviously, the end of the song is kind of, you can't control everything, you can't control how other people are going to feel, whether it's your partner, or a critic, you know, it's like, people are gonna think and act in ways that maybe doesn't make sense to you. But then you can't control that. So you just got to let it go and have this kind of Zen approach of like, well, okay, fair enough. If that's what you want to say, then I'm not, it's I'm not gonna let that upset me, because this is your own shit. You know, so I've got my shit, you've got yours. But and that's it, it's that kind of like, final letting go, which I think is a good, really good mindset for bands to have, or any artists who want a long career in music, you have to have slightly thick skin and just have this sort of a slightly Zen approach to it that don't be doing it for other people's reactions. Don't make music to have fame or to have critical success or you know, to need that approval from outside. As long as you as an artist, as a band or whatever, are doing what you love, and it resonates with you, then you sorted rarely, whether you have success or not, you know, you might be disappointed that you don't get success, but at least you feel kind of like it's resonated with you and it feels kind of truthful, which is why you make music in the first place.
Keith Jopling:The art of longevity is presented with Bowers and Wilkins, Bowers and Wilkins loudspeakers are trusted by some of the world's leading recording studios, including Abbey Road. It's a real pleasure to have Bowers and Wilkins supporting the show. Now, I love that. I mean, it's definitely been one of the discoveries of longevity is you know, you're making music for you, you're making it as art. But to not try to please anyone you know, to sort of let go those attachments. Again, it feels like you've done much against many expectations. And you know, that song for me is a really cool example. Because it's a big step up in songwriting. And the songwriting on the record is great, the sound is great. So tell me about the studio team. We all studied a bit of sound technology lipo and, and over the years, we've just been, we've had mentors especially had like Pro Tools and reason. And, you know, we'd be constantly like working on stuff, and we did all of our own demos. So we learned loads about production along the way. And we've always kind of molded the arrangements and the production close enough to like, where we were here in the song going, you know, we can achieve quite a lot. But then the final like that 20% At the end, because our technical nows, and like, some of that is definitely not where it should be. And we know that we can get even better results when we go and work with like, you know, really good producers and stuff. So we've got a great partnership with Mark crew, who did GlitterBug they the third album, and the fourth album, and then this one, there was never any real doubt that we were going to do it with Mark, I think because like we've all become really good friends with him. And we've just got, you know, he knows that we have strong opinions on the production and like we know, you know, kind of how to record and produce and stuff as well. So he'll listen to the demos that we've made. And they'll just be like, honestly, we don't need to replace that, that that drum sound could be better, this could be better, and then he'll just, you know, fine tune those and also the stuff that we've already recorded. He'll he'll put it through, you know, he'll obviously EQ it and mess with effects on it in the way that he's hearing it. It's just such an easy working relationship with him. Like everything. We think he often will say something we're like, yeah, we wanted to do that actually. And he just gets it and he's got some loads of great ideas. So like a few of the demos Murphy had made with
Dan Haggis, Wombats:during the pandemic, so like the two of the songs were with Jack Mayfly. One was with Paul meany. And so another one with Gabe, Simon, for those ones Mark was like all sinners, you know, we're not going to be in the same room anyway, you might as well just do them with those producers if they're up for it, because they've got the demos already. And so then I just went into the studio and like, played my drums, did a load of backing vocals and sent them the files over, Tor did the same in Oslo. And Murph did the same in LA, and not you know, and the producer was in like, Nashville, or, you know, wherever. And it was so mad because like, you know, we always hear the song as it's kind of being pieced together in the studio, because you're all there hearing what each other are doing. But then in this case, it was like, we sent our stuff off. And then honestly, a month later, we got the finished version of the song back almost, with obviously, then we made notes and like, tweak stuff, but that was the first time hearing it. So I hadn't even heard the bass sound, or the guitar sounds and the vocals. And, and it was so cool. Because obviously, you do lots of takes with lots of different fills, and kind of little sections, and whatever, you try some weird stuff out, then more straight stuff. And it's it, it was just interesting to like, not be part of that process of putting it all in place. But it was really fun, and kinda makes you go, Oh, cool. That works. And it's just really nice. Like having made so many songs as a band together, I think we just we just embrace the challenge of not being in the same room. And just when we know we can do this, we were really pretty well prepared beforehand. We had like boring spreadsheet with like each song, any references, any sounds that we were going for a sections and parts we needed to tweak. There were very few if any arrangement issues, which was good, because that can be really difficult. If you're not in the same room to like, finesse arrangements, that can be really hard. Because sometimes it can be like, you know, a drum film mixed with a slight slide on a guitar and you go, Oh, we've sorted it, you know, the transition feels right. And but yeah, fortunately, we kind of have most of that done. So yeah, that was it. Really, we just, and we recorded it in the middle of the November lockdown 2020. And it was great to have something to focus on, you know, to wake up every day and like, have a routine. Yeah, I mean, there have been so many really good records made during the pandemic. And a lot of them have been pieced together, in the way you described, you know, the artists, the bands are not hearing it until the very end, maybe that's the better way to make records, rather than they'll be in the studio just kind of getting in each other's pockets or something I don't know, I think there's definitely something to be said for some of that kind of ability to just hone in on your parts, you know, and really get as geeky as you want without thinking about we're supposed to be recording drums in, you know, in an hour, or bass or you know, whatever it is like, Well, I'm a bit behind, it didn't matter, because we could just spend as long as we wanted on each thing really. Also, I think like, if people are in different rooms, this is like Sonic geekery. But like, every room sounds a little bit different. It's actually really cool having like different sounding rooms within the same sonic landscape, because it just differentiates each part that little bit more. Yeah, so you know, instead of like, having to fight with all the same frequency responses from the room, all of a sudden, it's like, oh, the guitars just always got its own different sounds. So the drums and the bass because they, you know, we've mentored we're in the same room for most of that so interested, that's a good way of putting it because the album does sound really beautifully sheduled. And as I say, you know, it's got real momentum to it, I get that now, because one of the pleasures of listening to your music now is it does have that space to it. There's plenty of space between the instrumentation and the arrangements, there's a lot in there to kind of engross you as a listener. I think we've always loved the kind of you know that the Beach Boys approach, which like is multi layering things and trying to make new sounds of something. So you could have a guitar line and you're like, oh, let's double that with a cent or less double that with a plant pass or you know, whatever it is, do something that just makes you go to that sound and be like, what exactly is that all of us have always loved that kind of like, you know, you listen to a song over and over and over again to like, dig through the layers of the song with each lesson. And I kind of love those little easter eggs that you pop in there along the way. And it just helps that sense of like Wonder when you first listen to something. It's not necessarily just the same sounds that you would expect. And I think Mike Crosby, who mixed it, he was over in LA, lovely guy, he did a brilliant job. And we had lots of zoom sessions like this, you know, with him, I'd see this see the screen and we'd be going through everything and but he he really helped with that, like, just space and you know, keeping everything like in its own little world. And then obviously Greg kalbi who mastered it. This is getting very geeky, but he is an absolute legend of mastering. I don't know if you'd like I've heard of him before but you think the mix sounds good and then you get the master back and you're like, how's he made? It's that much more space around every single part. It's It's just I mean, it's a dark art. I don't know how he does it, but
Unknown:There's
Keith Jopling:a bounce to it as well. Really great to listen to in headphones. I'm still waiting to get my vinyl copy, actually. So I can't wait to see how that sounds through the speakers as well. That's album five, isn't it? Fix yourself. So listening back, really in preparation for this, because I knew your previous album as well. That's kind of where I got into you, I guess. But going back to the beginning, you know, there's been a real progression in everything, you know, the songwriting the sound. But I mean, one of the other sort of lessons to longevity, if you'd like to sort of obsess over your influences and kind of meld them together into something that's uniquely you, which it feels like, certainly on the last two albums, that's what you've been able to do. So you could kind of go really interesting places from here, can you? Oh,
Dan Haggis, Wombats:yeah. And that's, that's kind of what we intend to do. Like, each album, we've sort of tried to go off in a different direction, sometimes as a, as an antidote to what went before, you know, just for ourselves. And most of the time, though, to be honest, like we're, you know, huge fans, whether you hear it or not, probably not huge fans of Radiohead, you know, growing up, and how every album for them just, like slightly changed, and you listen to their first like, couple of albums, and it was very much drums, bass guitar kind of feeling, you know, very more indie sounding, I guess. And then obviously, okay, computer, Kid A, and so on. And it's just this evolution and this crazy, like, they just do whatever they want. And we always just felt, I think most musicians probably do often cite Radiohead as, like a great example of that kind of, they've just done what they want to do. And whether it's sometimes gets too weird for you, or too challenging, and never have anything but admiration for that kind of ethos. And every band learns along the way, you know, what they want to achieve, how they want to go about it, that you know, the games, you ended up playing with a record label and like to say that we've always just done exactly what to do would be probably a little bit false, because like, we had the classic second album thing where the lake you know, the first time we literally did say to them, like, we're gonna do exactly what we want. And this is like, yeah, no, no, we'll never interfere, which the first time we had a few little butting heads kind of moments, but in general, it was like, we just went into Rockfield studio recorded it live practically. And then just had two weeks of messing around and, and voila. But the second album, I know, like, Murph especially, there's like the a&r guys in his ear, like, you know, because the first batch of songs we made were way more grungy, because our influences were very much like smashing pumpkins, Weezer, you know, Nirvana and stuff like that. So we went a little bit more like three piece kind of grunge. And I think the labor were like, Whoa, what's going on here, you had in in a totally different direction. So where's all the energy and the beats think that we naturally kind of went away from that to start with? And so they definitely slightly pulled us back a little bit and tried to go like, Well, can you try? What about doing more like that, you know, it wasn't too like heavy handed, but you know, that you take onboard people's opinions around you. And you know, I think some great songs came out of it kind of thing. So it's worth listening to people around you and not being too stubborn as well, I think that's, maybe that's a key to longevity, that not just being too like, No, fuck you, or like, it's this way or no other way. Because, as with any team, you know, if you're working with any label, lots of other people do have great creative ideas. You know, it's not, of course, the band is the focal point, and especially music wise, but it does take a lot of that kind of nurturing, and, you know, positivity and little few key suggestions here and there. Just maybe, you know, if you're veering off the path slightly that they you know, it just, it's one long conversation, and it's not, there's no black and white, it's all gray, kind of like life in general. And just to kind of be aware that maybe some people they've fallen in love with a part of your music that, don't forget why they love that, you know, and don't, don't be like, but I just want to do something different. Just for the sake of it. It's like, well, yeah, you can do something different. But you can still give people you know, people can still have that same feeling from a song. And it can be different. So I think we've kind of known that we can push the boundaries, but we also for us as a live band, when it comes to making an album like we know, we want at least a couple of songs in there that are like, high energy, great fun. So naturally, we would go like, right, come on, we need an upbeat song. It wouldn't just be what came out noodling everyday kind of thing.
Keith Jopling:You know, what's interesting about that, for me is that, as you say, you get pushed and pulled in different directions, and especially where labels are kind of concerned about their investment, let's say but but a lot of bands get pushed towards being Poppy, but you naturally gravitated towards being more poppy. And you seem to have landed in your comfort zone is the wrong word. But you've landed in the right place. You've got all these toys to play with. And you can throw all the sounds around great pop tunes. So you've moved away from those kind of indie rock stylings the post punky grungy guitars towards being a real pop band is sort of in is the new pop, but you've done that on your own. No one's pushed you into that.
Dan Haggis, Wombats:Yeah, no completely classic example like Smells Like Teen Spirit. Yes, it's heavy and grungy, but it's a brilliant pop song as well, you know, it's got like, really great hooks in there an amazing chorus that gets you every time. And it just makes you want to jump and sing along to the chorus, like, song to by blur got hooks in that, you know, you can go through and like, the pop elements within rock and grunge and an indie is kind of always there, you know, like the killers first album that was kind of labeled in the at the time, but I mean, they're just massive pop songs aren't they just sound a bit skinnier than the classic pop. But you know, a lot of the time that can come down to the production, like, especially with with our songs, because in general, as you say, you know, it's every song has got like a kind of a chorus that you could sing along to. I mean, there's that. I don't know how you define pop really anymore, to be honest. But we always try and make something that feels like, if the verse feels amazing, we want the chorus that feels even better, or as good. And you know, we love getting like little hooks in there that kind of give you a sense of like, okay, that comes back at the right time. And we definitely try and play with pop structures, though, you know, we always try and twist it a little bit or like mess with it and pull the rug. I've said that a few times on this album. But I do feel like most songs have a rug pulling moment where maybe it doesn't quite do exactly what you'd expect it to do like method to the madness, for example, or wildfire, you know, the middle aged section, and that suddenly goes very transcending. And but then the chorus is very poppy and uplifting. And then, and euphoric kind of, I think, yeah, we wanted to play with things a little bit. This album, actually, I only realized when I listened to it, when it came out, I always had that ritual moments listen to it's like, in a really good way. There's quite a lot of like, single line choruses, almost all, you know, like, some method to the madness, ready for the high. If you ever leave and come with, you know, there's lots of phrases that kind of, they come back and back again, and again, I think maybe a bit more than we've ever done before. Like people don't change people, everything
Keith Jopling:is going to die to die. Yeah, kind of phrases
Dan Haggis, Wombats:that that really stick in your mind that like, just come back again. And again. It's like that
Keith Jopling:pop, though. It is that construction of the song? Yeah, it's the catchy chorus. But it is that sort of element that pops literally, and those little things that become earworms, and they kind of nag away, in a good way. Yeah, you know, and I think that's that. That's why I've sort of, you know, you're in the mix in in terms of bands that I listen to with Radiohead, and it doesn't surprise me at all to hear you talk about Radiohead being an influence. Yeah, as I say you've had that kind of progression. And lyrically that's coming together as well. Is it math? writing the lyrics? How do you put the songs together? Yeah,
Unknown:so Murph, yeah, definitely does, like 99% of the lyrics. That might be the outline here and there sometimes, you know, but in general, it's more just helping out with, Oh, what about this word as a rhyme? Or, you know, are we changed that slightly, that phrase doesn't flow quite right. You know, it's, it's tweaks like that. And he's brilliant. Like, from the word go, I remember when we first started playing together. And it was that honesty, within the songs like, even from songs that no one's really heard from the three years before our first album, you know, it was always that kind of therapy, essentially, it was like Dear Diary, kind of just openly talking about mental health issues and what's going on in life, whether it's, you know, with relationships, and a lot of the time, it's, you know, him trying to figure out like, relationships, what's going on, or his own mental health or things that have happened that, you know, trying to make some sense of, I guess, the two sort of classic ways, I guess, that we would make a song is like, either Murph comes in with like, an acoustic or a keyboard, and like, plays the rough skeleton of a song. And then we all start, like jamming around it and putting in the clothes and the flesh on the skeleton, and then maybe a break would be added in from like, you know, improvising, jamming around, or maybe an outro or, and finding those moments where you'd go, like, ah, that line, then that's like, actually, we could use that melody as like a keyboard line at the start, or, you know, moving toward, but then listen to what he's doing, and try and figure out ways to like, just embellish it and make it even more kind of rich and whatever and fun. And then other ways would be, we'd all start as a band, sort of jamming something. So like emoticons came out like that. And, you know, we were just like, we got this really nice feel go in and then it was like, right, we had the guitar line in the chorus, maybe that should be a word and you know, it starts going that way. And then usually, when we have something that myself bought, or or both of us together have made and sent them off as a backing track. That might be like, a minute and a half long, might be a sort of intro verse chorus idea, and then never go okay, cool. Send me this, do this, change this, and then he'll come back with like, finished lyrics and melody and stuff. And we have last like Greek tragedy, and we you know, you'd sort of sit back and just be like, holy shit, like, you feel this whole It comes to life in a way that you could never have imagined. And it's and it's so nice that kind of, you know, we've made so many songs together where it does just come together in different ways. And there's no like, right or wrong way about it. It's just,
Keith Jopling:yeah, that doesn't sound like there's a great deal of tension either like you're collaborating Well, you know, you're a kind of well oiled machine, you're not the police, you're not kind of trying to get under each other's skin and freak each other out, you're kind of working together. Diplomacy
Dan Haggis, Wombats:is so important. The writing process, you know, there's definitely been moments where it can be tense, which, in a weird way, I think we all understand and acknowledge that, like, you need some tension with to make a really good song. You know, you need that you need to push and pull each other and like, you know, you need to point out when I don't think that melody is the best it can be from Earth hearing that or if it's one of us who've come up with or whatever. It's not a nice thing to hear when when your bandmates say, I think it can be better or you know, because a lot of the time again, you're back to that subjective thing where you go, Well, that's what you think. But I think it sounds amazing, it's like, but then it's having the ability to be able to say, rather than digging your heels in and being stubborn about it, and creating a really bad sense five that you can never going to break through. The answer is that we all need to love this thing. So let's just try and work on it together until we're all happy. I think we've gotten much better over the years at that sort of listening to each other and being like, Alright, okay, cool. Well, what have you got in mind? And sometimes your answer might be, I don't actually know. All I'm saying is that something doesn't feel right about this. And it could sometimes be like, I don't think the bass should just be doing eights along with this, I feel like you need to add some different rhythm in there to make it bounce here or difference. And, you know, or someone might say to me, like, oh, you're a bit too straight there or, you know, do something. Or it could be the opposite. It could be like your overplay and just be simple. You're like, oh, yeah, actually rights, you know, why am I trying to hog the limelight. But naturally, I because I play guitar and piano more than drums off. It's like, we all think about songs from a production and what's best for the song, rather than what's best for my kind of, I want to be the star of the show with my drums or my guitar lines, or, you know, it's more, we all have this collective approach of like, listen, sorry, we're gonna have to get rid of that. And that's it.
Keith Jopling:Keith here, thanks for listening to the art of longevity. I hope you're enjoying the conversation so far. Please tell your friends, listen back to the other episodes. And don't forget to subscribe on whatever podcast platform you listen to the conversation. I think we're getting to the heart of what true longevity is here. Because there's a lot of elements in this mix. It's never as easy as, hey, the wombats just stuck at it or went more poppy or whatever. You know, I think you're all multi instrumentalist. So you can play different instruments, and you're listening to each other. I mean, I had Roland dawesville, on the show last time. And you know, he's a legend, right? Working in Tears for Fears for all those years. It basically took him 30 years before he started listening to Kurt. That's different now. You know, it's it. It feels like you've got your egos in check.
Dan Haggis, Wombats:Yeah. So, I mean, I think that also comes from nerves have a lot of therapy, I've had some as well. And like, again, we've both been doing yoga for like the last nine years or so 10 years. And like, I do think that really helps like ground your mind a little bit more and know a little bit more about yourself. And maybe, yeah, the ego, but having way too much control in your own mind, you know, just understanding why you're feeling that way, or why you're getting so annoyed about the fact that someone's trying to change your like precious melody and, you know, or whatever it is
Keith Jopling:all the things that ended up, you know, causing bands to great bands to implode. Yeah, you know, because they just never talked to each other open. It's like we're having those family feuds where it just everything just seeds under the surface.
Dan Haggis, Wombats:Yeah. And you know, we definitely had some periods where, like, during GlitterBug, I remember like, you know, Murph was going through a bit of a rough time. And then for the fourth album, me and Todd were a bit more maybe, and you've hit the nail on the head actually talking about things like we weren't that great necessarily, because we maybe didn't have as much of a need to, but there were definitely things that in the name of the greater good as in the wombats, we would swallow. But actually, the Norwegian phrases swallow the camel, which is like, it means to let go of the situation and just swallow your ego for a moment. But the problem is, if you do that too much, and you don't acknowledge that you are annoyed, then that can simmer and build up as you say, into something where you're like, you always change my lines or you always change that, you know, then you kick off and say, because this thing's been going bubbling under the surface for ages as you say,
Keith Jopling:you've got to swallow the camel not choke on it. You Yeah, exactly. Just getting that getting it all down including the hump, as well as everything in it's great isn't it gotta love the Scandinavians actually
Dan Haggis, Wombats:made a solo song called swallow the camel. Because when I heard the phrase, I was like, that's just such an image. It's got to be it's got to be done.
Keith Jopling:Going from GlitterBug, then to beautiful people will ruin your life. Because I read an interview with Murph that said, we were the first band to get dropped by a major label and then get bigger. Which is actually not true. You join a community, a fine community of bands who've been exactly through that process. I mean, I've had quite a few of them on this show either spoon included, nor reveres last lo boss, Gary Numan, do you think there was a an element after GlitterBug where that happened? And you kind of got to get over the trauma of being dropped? And being you know, not taken seriously, by the music press getting those two and three star reviews? You know? And then you went on to make a really great album. Was that sort of partly trying to prove yourselves or get it back together? Or was it not really like that?
Dan Haggis, Wombats:I think like, it's really hard with hindsight, say, because, of course, the album probably took a direction that wouldn't maybe have happened had we not been dropped. Like who, you know, it's so hard to say. But it was a strange period. Because, you know, the boss at Warner's, like the guy who had signed us and left and went to another company and a new guy came in and like said, Oh, no, we're gonna you know, we're gonna stand by you guys. We love the album, blah, blah, blah. You know, we put it out went on tour, and it seemed to be doing really well. And the day after we played ally pally, like, we'd still a sold out show, you know, 10,000 people there. We were up in Edinburgh for something and we got a phone call saying like, I've been dropped that kind of moments of like, what's what? Yeah, like, how's that work? And it was like, I mean, that's their decision, like, fair enough. And our a&r guy had moved as well. So we had a new team of people. And we were one of the bands that they just flushed out, I guess. But it turns out, it was one of the best things that could ever have happened. Because I know, at the time, I was trying to be a bit more philosophical about it. And you know, Slyke, listen, we just keep doing what we've always done. We're just gonna make music and put it out, like, someone will put it out. And if nowadays, you can just put it out yourself. Like, we'll just keep going. I think MERV took it a bit more like a rejection. And, you know, a sort of sense of this album wasn't good enough, you know, kind of feeling even though we all loved it. And we were really proud of it.
Keith Jopling:Yeah, I don't blame him on it must be very hard not to take it as as a rejection. Yeah,
Unknown:of course. You know, I guess it's like a girl dumping you and saying she doesn't like you anymore. It's like, it's heartbreaking, isn't it? And like to point out, that hasn't actually happened to me yet. So I'm glad. But then, you know, I know for people like it is it's, it's kind of, it's tough to deal with. I think for that one. You just have to, you know, go back to basics and focus on just making the best songs you can possibly make, and setting the bar high for sent over cheater tongue and it was like, Oh, wow, this is yeah. This is awesome. Yeah,
Keith Jopling:we knew something was happening with that's a cracking album opener. That one. Yeah.
Dan Haggis, Wombats:And yeah, pretty much straightaway. It was like, Oh, that's good. That's that's album opener right there.
Keith Jopling:I mean, that's the album where I discovered you, as I said, so it's, it's always going to be among my favorites. And actually, when you go, there's so much content these days, so much music and everything else that when you discover a band, I think less and less you tend to go right back into the catalog. You know, there's just so much other stuff to compete with. But yeah, it just felt like you got yourselves on a bit of a roll. And I guess you know what you're saying about murse lyrics? They did sort of get more confessional or therapeutic at that point. I suppose. That's what part of that relatability but
Unknown:yeah, maybe one of my favorite songs I've ever done, ends the album. I don't know why I like you, but I do. And it felt like the most kind of dreamy, slight nod to Radiohead that we've done almost that was like, Yeah, I think that also remember when we when we finished that one, it was like last on the album. We were like, Ah, this is where we're going to be heading next. And I think when we started writing on this new album, there was a little bit of that lingering over of like, Let's fuck with things even more.
Keith Jopling:I feel a little bit like that with a new record as well. You get a little bit weird at the end. And I feel like yeah, this is just hinting at future things. The masterpieces to come, isn't it, Dan?
Dan Haggis, Wombats:Yeah, exactly. The masterpiece is always to come. You've got to think that your best musics in franzia.
Keith Jopling:No, I think it is I think it's definitely in you for sure. And that was
Dan Haggis, Wombats:asked the question of the day like when so we met Paul McCartney a few times and interviewed and stuff and now after this like one on one songwriting session within the graduates and Lipper got to do like a select few. And one of the things you said apparently Paul McCartney said like always think that your best materials in front of you, not behind you. And yeah, that was like I never really got that at the time. But now gonna, you know getting a bit older. It's like Oh, yeah, what an amazing like, that's, of course, you've got to keep the carrot in front of you and just keep heading and believing in yourself that the best music is out there. Because if you get too bogged down with thinking that, you know, we're never going to have a hit as big as that one, then you're chasing this imaginary tail all the time, aren't you? Yeah,
Keith Jopling:it's easy to think that, you know, it's easy for NACA to say, but he would have said that for a reason. I think you can feel really good about that now, can't you? Because it's not like you're in, you haven't got a platform to jump off of you really have, you're on a roll. You're getting better creatively. As you said, I think that the masterpiece is there. You're Not You don't have to worry about longevity either, do you? It's even becoming clear to the music press that you are going to be around for as long as you want to be.
Dan Haggis, Wombats:Yeah, it's funny, actually, you say that. I know. I felt like there were a couple of reviews. I don't normally read loads. But this time was like, I'm just interested to see what people think that I think more and more when you feel like so happy with an album you like Oh, surely there's going to be at least some things in there for some of the breasts. And there was definitely this sense of like, from some writers at least, like this resigned cat sense of like, well, as you say, the one back to here, like, whether in the landfill, whatever you want to label them as, like they are here and just accept that fact. Like, it's really weird to me, though, that like this kind of how we just unfairly get where you're fairly or not, whatever, it's subjective, but you know, get lumped in with this kind of negative thing of in the landfill like this like journalistic like term that they just started banding around, all of a sudden just gets like, you know, because it does sound a bit negative, doesn't it? It's like, how did they crawl out of like the trash Canada, in mid noughties? Almost,
Keith Jopling:I think it's essentially just lazy. Yeah.
Dan Haggis, Wombats:But saying that we've jokingly talked about like, one day putting on a festival on an old landfill sites in the landfill, and get like all the bands from that era and do like a quick in a big kind of two fingers and be like, er, come to this festival and don't have a good time. We Day. Yeah, I
Keith Jopling:mean, the other thing you are sort of put together with those other bands, aren't you that came up in the same period. But you know, I just think that you've moved on to somewhere else, you're in your own zone. Now. The art of longevity is a team effort. show is produced by the songs Abellio. That's me, with Project Manager. It's audio engineered and edited by audio culture. Our amazing cover up by the wonderful Mick Clark, and original music for the show, is by Andrew James Johnson. There's a couple of things that I think are really, they demonstrate your success. Let's say you've crossed over generations, this is very important. This is what a lot of bands really would like to do. And a lot of bands have been around for 20 years definitely would like to do it because it means you get big on streaming. Got a millennial audience, you've got a Gen Zed audience. Now how has that happened in your mind, like
Dan Haggis, Wombats:each album that we've put out, we about only the last three, probably, but we jokingly were like, our managers like, the crowd don't seem to get older. You know, you expect the crowd each year is like, oh, each album, it's like, okay, you know, fans are probably going to be a bit older now, and maybe a bit less energy in the mosh pit, you know, because that kind of, I know what I'm like when I go to a gig now I kind of stand a bit further back and listen and dance a bit and stuff. But I won't be like losing my shoes in the mosh pit, like I used to do. But every album, just like vampires on the front row just sort of never grown older. And it's awesome. And I think a lot of the people we meet, you know, you're sort of 16 to 20 year olds or whatever. I think often it's like they've had an older cousin or sibling or mom or dad, you know, family member who from when they were little, we've just been like one of the bands that they've been playing around the house. And then the younger kids get into it. And then when they get to 16 You're already a band that they've grown up listening to, and then they can go to gigs and tell all their friends. And so I think there's that element of it. And then there's also the sort of, I guess, with this album, during the pandemic, you know, we had like this remix, a Greek tragedy went viral on Tik Tok. And at the time, we didn't even know what tick tock was, you know, and then there's all these like young kids like sharing videos themselves, like singing along to the song and and that definitely was a real probably injection of like young fans into the wombats because we noticed the streaming even on like the original version, the Greek tragedy, suddenly went up, you know, quite a bit, and then just stayed there. I hope that people then would have, you know, as you say, dug back into the back catalogue and maybe listened to like the album's or maybe not, maybe they just listened to, you know, just that one song that they like, and then they move on.
Keith Jopling:I definitely think they do. I mean, it worked for Fleetwood Mac, right. I think if the catalog is there, and it's good enough, then yeah, that's where the journey starts for them. And you know, Spotify has been pretty good for you, as well as you were on some of those big indie playlists. Yeah, you were a feature band on many of those for a long time and they reached a big audience
Dan Haggis, Wombats:100% I mean, as you mentioned before, with the gatekeepers, you know, when we talked about that early on, the gatekeepers back when we started were very much like heads of radio, and heads of record labels, you know, a&r people and stuff like that was it really whereas nowadays, if you get an influencer on Tik Tok or Instagram or whatever, like you know, suddenly like big enough your music even as a young you know, a small artists that that can that can open like, doors straight away on its own, totally, you know, record labels have algorithms now spotlight looking at the Tick Tock and like, the new song comes along, they'll listen to it and like discover artists there. It's like, save some traveling around the country go into little shit venues, they just look good. They go on tick tock now, I'm sure that I'm sure they do a bit of that as well going to gigs, of course, but you're in like, upcoming singer songwriters, bedrooms now, you know, literally, they're at the moment they're learning. And you can see, wow, this person's got insane talents, right. And so they can spot them early. And it's changed how music is discovered and consumed and all the rest of it. And, and I guess for us, we were kind of lucky that we had that moment with Greek tragedy that kind of put us in that world as well, a little bit maybe and pulled in a new audience of people who are who are, you know, discovering music through tick tock and stuff.
Keith Jopling:Yeah. I mean, you've got to have the song in the first place, of course, but yeah, I think you are, you're living proof that the new media is more powerful than the old media, and talking
Dan Haggis, Wombats:about longevity, embracing the new, whatever new technology is coming out and stuff, like, I feel like embracing that, whether it's streaming or whatever, is kind of an important part of being in a band, you know, it's, it's the same for any, any industry really, if you lag behind what technology is capable of, very quickly, you're gonna be obsolete, almost it sounds really, you know, it's bad to say that, but I do think there's a, there's a certain truth to it that, you know, we're not naturally like, really into social media and all these things, you know, that we weren't we didn't grow up with that, like, with our phones constantly on us, like, I didn't get a phone. So I was 17, you know, and it was one of the little lucky ones. I when I see a moment or an event or something, I don't think, oh, phone quick, I need to share this. Yeah,
Keith Jopling:you're not a digital native band. I mean, you wouldn't be 20 years in, you know, that is literally you are before that time,
Dan Haggis, Wombats:and our manager realized that pretty early on that, like, we weren't that great with it. So we got a social media company to help us be active and kind of be part of that world a bit more. Yeah. And they, you know, with graphic designers and people, they obviously now it's like, quite standard for bands to have that. But it is important. And then that, you know, in Spotify in turn, kind of making a thing out of indie music and having those indie playlists that clearly were very popular with lots of people who love bands, maybe when they weren't, you know, teenagers. So they've got that nostalgia thing of like, moving to New York, let's dance as your division killer direct that, you know, songs from the first album, they get put on all those playlists now. And so people, even youngsters now just discover that kind of music, you know, in the same way that I would put on like a 70s playlists and you know, go are cool. I know I love Fleetwood Mac. I love all these other bands, but I never heard of them.
Keith Jopling:You know, it's easy to forget that young people can be nostalgic. You know, nostalgia can can have a cycle that's just five years, it doesn't have to go back to the 90s 80s and 70s.
Dan Haggis, Wombats:Now enough, exactly. There's so many great ways to discover music out there now. And it really is not as simple as like, Ah, this song hasn't really worked at Radio, therefore, it's not been a successful single. It's like, oh, no, but it's streaming amazingly, because it's on all these playlists that people love. So actually, radio doesn't have the same kind of power of make or break sense anymore. It's definitely still an important part. Don't get me wrong, you know, course it is. And I hope it always will be like it's, you know, a love, listen to the radio, but there's just so many other avenues out there now to get your music out there. And
Keith Jopling:what about in the States? How did you become a thing over there? Was that also just translated on streaming? Or did they start playing your stuff on the radio in the US? I mean, how did that happen?
Unknown:I mean, it's been a real long slog over here. It's, it's, you know, we it's just been the slowest, you know, growth. We haven't had like that kind of one monster hit that, you know, some bands have and then it just, that's three years of touring kind of taken care of. But the first kind of breakthrough for us was actually iTunes did like a they used to do this free song of the week or free songs of the day. I can't remember what it was. Maybe it was the week. Yeah, it was the week. I think it was a week and let's dance. The Joy Division was like one of the songs they chose. And so that was definitely like a kind of opening of a door to oh, you know, just introducing Like who are the one that's never even heard that name before and then all of a sudden, come in. We didn't get much radio on the first album over here. I think set the second album jump into the fog that was really good on alternative radio. And we definitely noticed that kind of when we were playing doing tours, it was like, oh, yeah, people have definitely heard that song. I think that kind of out that put our foot in the door to let radio stations know who we were. So then when we came back following album then like, give me a try and Greek tragedy got a bit of airplay. Yeah. And then the next one, like, what would it have been after that? Turn? I think, yeah. Which is
Keith Jopling:another great song.
Unknown:So eat chairs. But you know, like, each song on each album seems to have like a song that kind of just gets your foot back in the door again, each time. And then we play the same places. And, you know, like this, this tour now, without going into like financial details or anything, but like, most tours, we do in America either lose a little bit of money or just breakeven, you know, Wes, we're still at that kind of stage where like, you know, we're playing to between 700. And, like, at the lower limits, and 2000 on a few shows, but in general, it's probably around the 1000 mark. But we're still at, we're still just breaking even because we've got a tour bus. And everything's more expensive now because of COVID. And, you know, we've got, like, all the crew that are with us and stuff. And so it's a very, very gradual build that I don't think people, I don't think most people realize, like how much touring you have to do, and how much convincing of people you have to do to like, maybe they think you just like live in this lap of luxury kinda like, you know, we haven't been in a hotel room for 10 days,
Keith Jopling:I was intrigued about how that was working for you. So in a way, it's sort of, it's almost what I didn't expect to hear, but you're doing it the old way. The labels would always say, you know, to break America, you just have to go there, you know, you have to become road warriors. And I think we've done 20 or 30, American tours before they made any money, they usually came back in debt. But maybe that's because Keith Moon rep stuff. Dramas are crazy, right? This is a really big era for bands just coming through. Now. I think we're in a really rich time here. There's some great bands out there. I try and follow young bands and pay them attention. And a lot of them are really good. But they're competing with all the world's music. I mean, there's 10,000 bands who'd like to be in a position of where the ones that are in 20 years. So I mean, we've unpacked quite a bit of it. But I mean, what would you tell them?
Dan Haggis, Wombats:I suppose I just say Just don't lose sight of like, the reasons why you're doing it and why you started a band in the first place. You know, it's, you're hanging out with your mates, you making music that you love, you know, that should be primarily where you get your joy. And when you when you sort of lose that, and you get too focused on other things. I don't know, I think I think the listener might maybe just like, can hear through that. And like, you just I don't know, just keep that honesty and, and like passion for music. And again, as McCartney said, like, keep thinking your best songs are ahead of you. And like, yeah, just try and achieve, like, you know, artistically like, try and take some of those boxes, or have those moments where you just like, wow, I can't believe we just made this out of nothing. Like where did this come from kind of that feeling is the best feeling in the world, honestly, as a musician, when all of a sudden those pieces just fall into place. And somehow your collective subconscious, like comes together to make this thing happen. That's the magic. And that's like, keep searching for those moments and realize that, you know, you're not always going to have things the way you want it. There's going to be ups and downs. But just to treat it as like, compartmentalize it as something that can't be messed with. I think we always just like, it's a different thing. It's not me it's not Murph, it's not toward it's like something else that we need to respect. And like, we can't fuck this up, you know?
Keith Jopling:Yeah, I mean, you've been through enough ups and downs, and you've taken enough not to kind of, I mean, do you have a code or kind of unwritten code as, as a band, a sense
Dan Haggis, Wombats:of humor is very important, like, not taking yourself seriously, in a way in a sense of like, obviously, you take the music seriously and stuff, but you've got to be able to laugh about things and fortunately coming from Liverpool that's, that's kind of in our DNA. And I think I think just being from the UK is definitely in our DNA, isn't it for all of us. But like, we've got this like imaginary demon Gods called Sinbad, that whenever things get really tough on tour, we haven't slept enough and we've got a gig and we're like, you know, where is the energy going to come from to pull this off? It's like, Well, are you going to give some bad the pleasure of knowing that he's broken you? And we're like, No, fuck that. And literally, we look up at the sky and go like, you thought you had us but now watch this. And then we just got I'm just rinse you know, smash it out. And even whilst we're playing the song like Murph will come over and lock communities like, never surrender, never surrender, you know, and we just, it just, you've got to just find different ways like keeping going because it's not any As the industry as you say, there's so much competition out there and a bit of luck. You've just got to keep making music and hope that eventually, you know, you'll make enough right decisions along the way that and work with the right producers and all the rest of it and just trust your instincts a bit. Like if something doesn't feel right with a song or with someone in the team or whatever, you know, don't be scared to flag it and just be honest.
Keith Jopling:Yeah, I love the wombat story. It's been great to talk to you. It's been great to become a wombats fan. You know, cuz you're the underdogs essentially on you.
Unknown:I don't know why there's always been that, that that feeling. But we do. Yeah, there's definitely been like a kind of, yeah, you do root for the underdog. And maybe the way the press have set it up, it's like, We are the underdog somehow. Yeah,
Keith Jopling:they're gonna eat their words. Already are they're starting to sort of, it's quite interesting. Just reading the reviews, they're kind of getting better, but they can't bring themselves to kind of say that you're really, really good band. If they're still just finding a little reason to sort of pull back on that. But maybe when the masterpiece comes, they won't be able to argue any which way.
Dan Haggis, Wombats:Can you imagine that? Those swallowing their pride and saying like, Alright, listen, hold my hands up. Maybe I was a bit harsh in the past, or any journalists going to do that? Or are they going to stick to their same old like,
Keith Jopling:Well, I think when you get to the point where you can kind of point the finger and say, Look, I didn't we tell you that you've achieved immortality. I will be honest. We'll see. Anyway, Dad has been great to talk to you. Have a great night. enjoyed the tour. Good luck with it all. And I look forward to whatever you do next.
Dan Haggis, Wombats:Thanks so much for having us on. It's a very interesting discussion.
Keith Jopling:Yeah.
Dan Haggis, Wombats:Nice one. Cheers,
Keith Jopling:Dan. All the best. Take care