Eamonn Forde, Host: 2:20

Steve Mason to the art of longevity. How are you doing?

Steve Mason: 2:24

I'm good. Yeah, I've just in the last two days finished the next album, Wow,

Eamonn Forde, Host: 2:30

is that a moment of great relief or a moment of huge trepidation, where suddenly you have to present this thing to the outside world.

Steve Mason: 2:37

I feel very happy. It's been a long, quite painful birth up to a point. And then it all started to come together. And I knew what I wanted it to be. But I wasn't exactly sure if that would work. But the way that very, very different, quite disparate types of music have come together. It's been, in the end incredibly seamless, and it sounds amazing and beautiful. And and it's completely different from any record I've made for a long time. So I'm not the great salesman. I'm a very harsh critic of my own work, but it's an amazing piece of work. And it's and it's very, very happy with it. Yeah.

Eamonn Forde, Host: 3:19

How do you know when an album is finished? Because I'm always reminded, I read an interview with Bruce Springsteen. And he said that he could just sit there and mixing and overdubs on an album. And the only person who will tell him it finished is John Landau, his manager comes in and basically almost lifts physically lifts his hands off the off the mixing desk and goes bring it to Phoenix. And he goes, right, okay, it's done.

Steve Mason: 3:39

I can understand that. mentality. 100%. But I think that I always know when somebody's finished. Yeah, I mean, for example, I spoke to the engineer Scott, yesterday, and I just need, I just need about three or four changes, one of which is I want my vocals up half a dB on the chorus and one song, right. Okay. So it comes down to very, very small things. But obviously, everything's important. Everything is important. So, yeah, I don't think I've ever really struggled really with knowing when something's finished. Let's go back to

Eamonn Forde, Host: 4:13

the start then and talk about that. And I guess kind of even before the beta band itself, kind of what was your first entry into making music because obviously, there is a point where you grew up and you love music, and it becomes a point of identification. But then it takes a huge leap of faith to go I want to create music, what was what was the trigger moment for you?

Steve Mason: 4:33

I remember my sister got she got one of these littles casiotone keyboards for Christmas, one year little thing. And then at some point, some bongo drums appeared. I don't know where they came from. So me and my sister borrowed my mom's little cassette recorder and we kind of started a band, right just me and my sisters. So we and we had about three songs.

Eamonn Forde, Host: 4:55

You like a prototype carpenters

Steve Mason: 4:57

and more like a prototype base. Something like that. Okay, very low five. Yeah, or suicide or

Eamonn Forde, Host: 5:07

moving into the world of professionalism and kind of setting up bounds kind of what, what was the breaking point from this very amateur thing not to dismiss degree art you were making with your sister when you were kids, but what was the jump into actually kind of forming the beta band?

Steve Mason: 5:23

You know, we sort of started making music together, John bought a sampler. I had a guitar and by that point, I had a four track I moved in with them as well I moved into I was sort of sleeping under their, under their stairs. Maybe

Eamonn Forde, Host: 5:36

gas me, shepherds, Bush, damn,

Steve Mason: 5:38

shepherds, Bush. Okay, so we just started working on just making music really just trying to combine things that we loved, which was, which was hip hop, and drum and jungle, and dub reggae, and, you know, understood the songs that I had, and then make some new songs and, and what have you. So it was quite organic, you know, but we were trying to combine things that we love, then, and make something kind of new, I suppose, make something that was that was real to us. Because none of us were really into folk music. None of us were into writing wanted to be an acoustic band. But we had an acoustic guitar. And we didn't want to be I didn't want to be a hip hop star. I didn't want to we didn't want to make drum and bass, but we wanted to try and blend all these things together and make something that that we loved and hit all the right little spots for us. Yeah. And then we kind of we have been a and we had dry the rain. And we had a try called shepherds dog. Then a friend of the with these two girls who were friends of ours at the Royal College of Art, and one of them knew a guy was a kind of manager and he I think he was a kind of manager, and he was going into Parlophone for a meeting. So I said, Take this taping and play it to the a&r guy. So we did and we got a meeting was that that was my plan. It was miles line. Okay.

Eamonn Forde, Host: 7:01

And because what you were doing at that time was really interesting. Like you mentioned a lot of the genres that you were kind of flitting across, and you and you weren't quite narrow or tribal in the way things were. And this is obviously kind of pre mass Internet era as well. Now you kind of can't grow without the idea of kind of jumping across genres is completely natural to them. But at the time, it almost felt like and I don't know, if you saw this film, at the time that you almost had a kind of musical bond or similarity with someone like Super Furry Animals, these kind of guys who were incredibly eclectic, who were finding music and kind of weird corners and really hunting stuff down even when it was really hard to do that. And they almost felt like both both to be a band and to prefer Rihanna was recovering from a similar starting Yeah, of lapsing downward the genre rules, Everton's evidence trained it on its own merit.

Steve Mason: 7:53

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I think I think I'd grown up, you know, with that whole youth culture tribalism thing, you know, and then there was a few sort of key things that happened to me during the sort of rave Culture House thing, particularly a DJ that used to DJ at a club in Dunfermline called the Crunk a DJ called DJ Lau, you know, in his DJ sets, he would be playing, you know, house, acid, house, reggae, hip hop, you know, and then sometimes at the end of the night, he's finished with green onions by bucatini and Geez. And because I'd been a mod, for me, that really cemented a lot of things together, that I'd already been kind of feeling that about this kind of line that goes through music from kind of, you know, I mean, arguably, from somebody like Robert Johnson all the way up to whatever is currently number one in the charts, there is a kind of line that goes through or and you can see why things develop why soul turned into funk, from r&b or blues or whatever. And so once you start to see that and you see that everything's completely linked, then you realize that there is no rules and there's no walls at all. And, and anything's possible, and especially I think, just getting the sampler was a big thing for us as well. And realizing that you could, I mean, we were using it in a very rudimentary way, but say something as slow down and, and even things like like, there's even one of the big band tracks, as we sampled a, it was John trying to put on a Beatles record, but the needle jumped across the record. And we just happened to have the sampler running at the time, because I think we were going to try and sample a beat from the masala and the song and the needle just skipped across it. And so we just sampled that, and then suddenly you get a rhythm out of that, and then suddenly, because it's such a weird rhythm, and it's not actually drums that leads you that opens your mind to think well, what else can we put on this which just is not normal is slightly off the beaten track and, and so I think, samples at that time were They really helped us not do things that were just normal, you know, it didn't seem

Eamonn Forde, Host: 10:05

certainly from the outside, it did seem to happen quite quickly for the beat band as well from calling to perform and to get assigned to suddenly becoming this really talked about bands.

Steve Mason: 10:15

People are just bored shitless of Britpop and the landfills and the arrogance that came with that, and I certainly watched Well,

Eamonn Forde, Host: 10:22

it was interesting to guests that you were kind of going through Parlophone, which you could say was the kind of catalyst for for that with blu ray and supergrass and lots of acts like that kind of Parlophone was the Britpop label in many ways. Yeah.

Steve Mason: 10:35

I don't know. I don't know about that. But, but Yeah, certainly, I think that something needed to change and people were people were desperate for a change that I think that whole kind of lager football Oasis thing had just become pretty toxic, I think. And so I was on a mission to kind of really try and just destroy everything. You know, and the best way because I was sick of people saying things like, we're going to be bigger, the Beatles were better than the Beatles. And I just think we, you're fucking not, you might be bigger than the Beatles. But that's only because people's expectations and the bar of quality these days is so fucking low that people are you can sneak in and become this enormous ban. So I mean, speaking personally, I was definitely on a mission to just destroy, you know, really a bit like, a bit like the punk thing tried to destroy, or it did destroy the PROG thing. And on all those kind of toxicity of multimillionaire rock stars noodling away for hours on end, you know, I felt that my, my personal mission was to put a nuclear bomb on the brim.

Eamonn Forde, Host: 11:48

There's one story I remember, when was the first time I ever saw the be a band, which was, I think the three piece had just come, I'd move, just move to London, and you played the electric ballroom, and it was like a really buzzy gig. And I remember waiting for a friend outside. And they was the gas that we were standing beside the gas rescue, we were obviously nobody's had a and we saw the Chemical Brothers come down to join the guest list. And you had a policy on the guest list, which was you have to give 20 points to charity. And I vividly remember that, I don't know if it was just for that game, which was way more than the ticket cost. I thought that's a really interesting moral stance at a point when the entire record industry was was awash with money and declined to take that stance. And it felt that the bigger band were slightly slight misfit in that world.

Steve Mason: 12:35

Yeah, I mean, I guess the difference is, we were very naive. So a lot of the things that we did, which looks a certain way to people, a lot of the time they were, they were from naivety, when you don't know what the rules are, I mean, I didn't, I didn't know any famous people. None of us knew any famous people I didn't know really anyone in the industry at all, the only people that we that we really knew a little bit was the verb. And that was just because they used to let us borrow their equipment early on, but we didn't, I didn't really know them very well. And you never had any talks about the music industry, or what it's all about or over that. And I think that's the difference between a lot of the people I see coming up now they sort of feel like they've come from media training classes, and they know all about the accountancy style of industry, and they know everything, you know, we didn't know anything. And so whilst that does have its drawbacks, certainly, I think is quite healthy. Because it just means that you don't know where the the lines are, and where the rules are and what you're supposed to do and what you're not supposed to do. And for ourselves, very important. And in every aspect of of what we did, you know, how did

Eamonn Forde, Host: 13:53

that kind of translate into pressure from the label? Because obviously, they got the buzziest band in the country, and they want you to sell records? And they will do you're in a massive, massive machine? How did that kind of square with kind of how you want it to do stuff, if you were kind of on this mission to find destroy Britpop, or are they the kind of extreme

Steve Mason: 14:14

elements of? Well, again, you know, going back to us being very, very naive at the time, we used to moan about that. It's probably just me, but I used to moan about the label all the time. But in hindsight, they were fantastic to be honest with you, they supported us 100% In all our decisions all the time, and they gave us enough money to do all the things that we wanted to do all the crazy ideas or the touring that we did where we took that live show that you saw, you know we took that all over the world. It was never watered down. We always got to support but it left us with a with an enormous debt. But you know, they will never shy coming forward to the money and they never hassled us. Myles was actually a brilliant a&r man but At the time, I had nothing to compare it to, you know, I was very intimidated. I was quite intimidated by the industry. And so we fought that kind of fear intimidation by being quite aggressive. And it was a huge mistake. What we lacked was some very solid clear management and especially somebody that we kind of respected that could let us know, really what was really going on like to actually let us know, actually, you know what, you should probably be a bit nicer to the labor because they're actually really supporting you. And they really care about what you're doing, and they think is really important. You know, and the situation that we were in wasn't normal. You know, we were totally left alone, they just gave us shitloads of money and said, Don't get on with it. All that money was spent on the bank, we didn't, we didn't have a pot to piss in, really, I mean, we didn't buy houses, we didn't buy cars didn't buy anything at all. We didn't even really buy clothes. You know, we bought records and musical instruments. And the rest went on, on all the crazy ideas that we had.

Keith Jopling: 16:03

The art of longevity is presented with Bowers and Wilkins, Bowers and Wilkins loudspeakers are trusted by some of the world's leading recording studios, including Abbey Road. It's a real pleasure, her Bowers and Wilkins supporting the show.

Eamonn Forde, Host: 16:19

You said that you kind of you felt annoyed that maybe you didn't understand how supportive the label was, but then you would do things like I remember that I think it was the enemy interview, when you came out with the debut album came on, you basically just went This is terrible. Like we hate the album, which was probably not a good selling point. Because I remember a few years earlier, Lima versus had the same thing about the last album, but that was kind of that album was released out of necessity, it was just calling to various demos or whatever. Whereas you guys had signed off on this album, I didn't go we didn't like it. But

Steve Mason: 16:50

I'm not completely blaming the management, but somebody and our manager with his eye on the ball would have seen what was going on. And that really we should have, we didn't have enough songs at that point to make a second album, we should have just held back. And because the three B's that had been written over the course of two years, and suddenly I had to try and write 1012 songs. And it was very intimidating situation for me because Gordon wasn't in the picture. So previously, there had been me and him writing songs together. And he was a much better songwriter than me, he was far more talented than me. But then he'd gone out of the picture. And suddenly, I'd signed a five album deal with one of the biggest labels in the world. And I'd probably only written about three or four songs. So it was very, very frightening, you know, and I was I felt really alone, really, we didn't have enough material. And the other thing was, we were making a lot of it up in the studio as we went along, because we didn't have enough songs. So really, somebody should have stepped in at that point and said, just stop, go away, write the songs, we've got money in the bank, there's no great fucking rush for this. Just relax and put out something when you're ready. Because the moment the momentum at that point was so great. If we'd have taken another year, the expectation would have just risen. I'm not blaming, I'm not blaming anyone. That's that was the situation. But that's really why that happened. And I I was so disappointed. But I put myself under a huge amount of pressure. There were great

Eamonn Forde, Host: 18:13

songs on that album and thinking like particularly, it's not too beautiful is a real highlight.

Steve Mason: 18:18

Yeah, but that's a classic example. That is basically one verse and a chorus, right stretched over eight or 10 minutes or wherever it is, you know, I didn't even bother to really write another verse of that. And I think by now, I think that that was just the what a wait, what a wasted opportunity. You know, if the song had just been developed a bit more it could have been, instead of being amazing, it could have been extraordinary, you know? Well,

Eamonn Forde, Host: 18:42

I guess there were also there were some moments where a code kind of like things were really, really good when you're why I'm thinking particularly the use of dry the rain in high fidelity. That was a big moment where even though lots of Americans refer to me as the beta band rather than the beta band. But that was a really big moment, this little project that you have suddenly big gets the Hollywood treatment.

Steve Mason: 19:05

Yeah, I mean, I don't, we didn't really think too much about it was the only thing that we thought was it was going to be like background music. They didn't. They didn't. We met this guy who was a friend of John Koufax, who was involved in the film, I can't remember what it was called. So he was kind of doing the pitch. But he didn't really tell us there was going to be a bespoke scene in the film, about the band selling the record, we just thought it was gonna be like background music or something like that. So we were just talking to this guy about music and he was pretty cool. And we had a few drinks for them and then we buggered off and didn't really think too much more about it. And then we went to the premiere in London and then I've put in jaws hit the floor, when that scene unfolded, you know, and, but I think again at that time, you know, whilst I was lacking confidence in certain areas, I 100% believed in music. I knew the music was amazing. When things like that happened, I thought, yeah, straight someone's going to use it in a film because we're fucking amazing. Yeah, that was great for us because that could have We came out in America. And then we did a couple of tours with Radiohead in America. So those two things together, they, you know, they covered so much ground for us in a very short, they probably cut out two years worth of touring in America, those two things, the Radiohead tours and the high fidelity thing. We were bigger in America than we were here. There

Eamonn Forde, Host: 20:17

was a bit I guess, a bit of a missed opportunity with squares because you'd obviously use the same sample as who was it? It was all a monster had used the same sample and you held your trike by and they got to number 20 with it. And then what do you replace it with broke? And one as a single, I think that became the single and that that got to number 30. Do you think things would have been different if you'd kind of when you got squares out? First, we choose that sample first?

Steve Mason: 20:45

Yeah, I mean, that's, that's the only thing I could say about the label was they just, I think they wimped out really, because what happened was Radio One said that they wouldn't play two songs with the same sample. And the thing that annoys me about that is that people say, the two songs are the same sample. I sample the Bootcamp for orchestra. But the iron monster guys, they, they just put, like a breakbeat over the whole track. You know, there's nothing particularly clever about that. But I just took a little sample and then the rest of its out. And you know, my song, it was very frustrating at the time. I think that if that was me, and I was the manager or I was involved in the label, I would have turned that into some sort of marketing opportunity. You know, Radio One won't play this. Yeah, blah, blah, blah. There's so much you can do but they just sort of, yeah, they just sort of crapped out really, and that was, that was frustrating and annoying. But But the great thing about that was it came off, you know, the second album, which was socials two, which was kind of like us, I guess, fulfilling what we're really capable of, you know, I think he's probably the best thing we did was honchos, too. Would

Eamonn Forde, Host: 21:59

you prefer to think of that as the the debut album proper?

Steve Mason: 22:03

Oh, yeah, I wish I had if I had been and we could airbrush the first album out of this

Eamonn Forde, Host: 22:08

one, but the stuff that came after our view, Callaghan's heroes to heroes as well. It just felt that there was still even though they squares wasn't the hit that maybe it should have been, it still felt like there was a lot of momentum behind the band.

Steve Mason: 22:21

Yeah, there was and we were still doing great things. And that whole the whole Hot Shots periods was probably the best time you know, we that's when we did the tour the tutors with Radiohead? We did a lot of tours in America at that point, and Japan. And that was probably the best time really that period, you know, because we were more confident by that point, you know, and going into here as to zeros. Yeah, it was, that was much more difficult. And yeah, we needed management at that point, we changed managers. By that point, we had a guy called Frank Gironda. And it was over in America. And that was a mistake getting him we should have had somebody in this country. And again, it just came down to they needed we needed some man management really, we needed some man interpersonal relationship management, between the four of us some help with that share was difficult. The writing of that record, the recording of it, it was during the recording, I decided I didn't want to be in the band

Eamonn Forde, Host: 23:19

anymore. Alright. Okay.

Steve Mason: 23:23

This has kind of reached the end of the road. Yeah, it was just just to my relationship with a member in the band that I just felt had reached the end of the road for me, I just didn't want to be involved with them. So another things were difficult. It wasn't just that other things were difficult that we were just like a management that was the money was dwindling. By that point. Nobody was looking after the money side of it whatsoever. And again, it goes back to what I said initially is like, don't just don't assume that people are doing what you're paying them for. Don't assume people will look at after stuff, because there is just as much chance that they're not as that they are. And nothing was being looked after we were just we were just like a ship that had lost his engine floating around on the sea. We weren't particularly getting on the four of us and it was difficult. It's a difficult time is

Eamonn Forde, Host: 24:14

that then the key Tirth longevity, a good manager, having someone who can have those difficult conversations that can knock heads together that can be a peacemaker can deal with all of the admin and the legal staff and the tour and stuff and all of that and basically just give you the space to create.

Steve Mason: 24:34

It's not one thing. It's a lot of different factors. That was a very complicated time. And not a nice time. You know, I wouldn't really want to blame one factor and I wouldn't really want to say that one factor being right would have fixed it, but certainly when you have four strong personalities in a band, you need someone look at after that, you know I mean? Being in a band, especially if Unlike that, is very difficult because you are, you're living with these people you're creating, creating with these people, you're creating music macrame film, you're touring with these people, your business partners. It's a very, very difficult relationship very, very difficult. And there's four of you, it's not even just, there's, there's two of you, four people, all with different expectations or with different needs. And so it's, it's difficult, and when things feel like they're starting to slide, you know, that's when, you know, a good manager needs to come in, and grab the situation, and give everyone what they need, you know, whatever, whatever that is, you know, and give everyone what they need individually, talk to the band, as collectively, and find out what everyone's problems are, and then slowly start to slowly start to sort it out. But as I say, we were just kind of addressed. We didn't have anyone helping us, really. And that was a big problem in the bigger band all the way through.

Keith Jopling: 25:59

Keith here, thanks for listening to the art of longevity. I hope you're enjoying the conversation so far. Please tell your friends, listen back to the other episodes. And don't forget to subscribe on whatever podcast platform listen to the conversation.

Eamonn Forde, Host: 26:20

What was the link then to go and solo because I guess psychologically, structurally, that's a big change. Obviously, you had King biscuit time, which was kind of run in parallel for a bit. And that kind of became the focus after the band did you want to do that kind of under a pseudonym, rather than your own name, for a reason.

Steve Mason: 26:39

I guess King Biscay time was already kind of up and running. I mean, even now, I don't really like recording and touring under the name Steve Mason, that just sounds like some friggin middle of the road. Acoustic load of crap. So. But at the time, yeah, Kingfisher time was up and running, you know, that already had a little bit of a cult following. So yeah, it just seemed like the thing to do. And I was very happy about going solo and being able to just make music, you know, rather than have to involve anyone else's ideas and get things by people and all that kind of crap. I just wanted to just focus on and just have no nothing diluted, you know, you know, I mean, one of the things, one of the things I really miss now is that is that band thing, not that I want to be in a band again, but I've always imagined it like, every artist has like a, they're given like a box. And there's lots of ideas in the box. And then if you want to want to do something like whatever it is painting, or a film or a piece of music, you go out, you go into the box in your head, and you have a rummage around and you pull some ideas out. But the more time you spend on your own creating on your own, and there's no one else simple, you end up going through everything that's in that box, you know, right? Yeah. So I think at the moment, I kind of this is one of the reasons why I just finished this album. And I involved a lot an awful lot more people at the stage of kind of just not necessarily writing the songs, but just jamming around and playing over sections and trying things out, just trying ideas out. Because that's kind of what we used to do in the big band was kind of, mostly I'd have sort of half a song or whatever. And then we'd start playing around with ideas and rhythms and melodies and, and styles and beats and stuff. And, and it's harder to do that when you're on your own. But when you've got that you're just me and another two or three people, you know, and you can make sit in a room and just make a noise and try things out. I've missed that creative side of it. And now I missed that creative side of it very much. Yeah,

Eamonn Forde, Host: 28:50

I guess you've got that you can spark off people, but also they're calling to carry and some of the burden as well. It's like, everything's not entirely your shoulder. So as you say, you can come in with a bit of an idea. And then you kick it around, and then it becomes this completely different thing or they they help you finish it. So I guess you're kind of caught exposed as a solo artist in that way, which basically you just go, okay, introduce me everything. There's a great deal of autonomy, but there's a huge amount of pressure on risk with that as well. Like, am I doing the right thing you don't have? You don't have a sounding board in the way that you would have

Steve Mason: 29:27

in a band? Yeah, I think it just took me a long time to because I felt that I needed to prove myself to myself outside the big band, right. I really, really bothered about, you know, doing better than them or whatever I didn't I honestly didn't care about that. I just wanted to prove to myself that I could exist outside of that band. And I did. I did that to myself quite a while ago. I think it's just a matter of having that confidence to involve other people and not feeling that you have to have that complete autonomy. all the time because it doesn't work it doesn't. Music should be a communal thing, I think, depending on what you're doing, but you know, it works much better if you involve other people and because not only do you get their input, but they spark things in you, which you would not be able to spark on your own. I

Eamonn Forde, Host: 30:18

don't know what you think about this looking back, but boys outside it felt like you just had, you'd kind of kneeled assigned on an approach on that album that kind of, in many ways is kind of proved a template for everything that's followed, where it felt like you create a whole kind of Sonic World and assigned and an approach and an aesthetic. Was that a difficult album to pull together? Or did that no point not trust? No. So I was kind of working on what was supposed to be the next black affair album,

Steve Mason: 30:49

right? They did a lecture a thing called Black affair in between Kingussie times Steve Mason, but it wasn't going very well. And so I just got frustrated. And I picked up my acoustic guitar for the first time in probably two or three years. And I wrote the song boys outside like that. I thought suck, that was easy. You know, instead of, you know, monkeying around with synthesizers and drum machines, and MIDI and all that stuff. You know, I just remembered what it was like to just be able to sit with a guitar, you know, and sing with the guitar and, and what an amazing thing that is. And so I kind of got back into that. So. So then Richard X, who produced boys outside, he got in touch with me to say that he loved the black affair album, and what was I doing? You know, was I doing anything? And I said, Well, I've started a black affair album when I have these sort of things. At that point, I was trying to make a goth r&b. That's what it was gonna be like, somewhere between kind of Bauhaus and Alia. Wow. Yeah. And to some success, not not that anyone's heard anything, but to some success. So anyway, I said to him, Look, you know, I've got some tracks, but I kind of feel a bit done with that. Now, you know, and I've started, I've got now got three or four, you know, songs that I want to do. And I think I'm gonna do that. I said, I'm sure you wouldn't be interested in Asia will send send them send me them anyway, send me them. So I sent in them and, and what I was trying to do was, combine kind of an AOA with an acoustic guitar. I mean, and the best example of that is song goes outside where you have the large kick drums and blah, blah, blah, with a cooler with acoustic. And so that's kind of why I wanted to do was try and have, yeah, has these two elements, which I hadn't at that time I hadn't really heard been done before. He really liked the songs and he wanted to do it. So by the time I didn't have a deal, so I started going down to London to work with him when he had some studio downtime. So that and that's really what happened to that record probably took probably took at least a year to record because we were just doing it in bits and bobs, you know, a week here and a week. I wasn't

Eamonn Forde, Host: 33:04

working with him because obviously he had also worked with like big shiny pop stores as well. He was like having these big. I got people like even like Rachel Stevens and orders like that. So he had that. Yeah, had that sewing to what he was doing.

Steve Mason: 33:18

Yeah, but he's also really into like electronic music is especially pop music. Like he's, he loves the humanly, you know, and they also lost an Sen and stuff like that. And sonically, I think that's probably one of the best records I've ever made. The vocals on that album, I think, are amazing, because he really took the time to get the details, right, and was really pushing me to sing, you know, really perfectly and get everything right and, and he did a brilliant job of that. But I think sonically as well, he's fantastic. The technical side of things is quite boring for a lot of people. But I think in my sonic history, that's quite interesting. And normally because it is, is so well produced. And I don't mean that the others aren't. I mean that in the others, though, all the time, I'm looking for a bit of dust. I'm looking for a little bit of kind of low quality here and there to add some flavor. With that pretty much we just went for, you know, high fidelity for one of a better word. And then you

Eamonn Forde, Host: 34:17

did the dubbed version as well. So you kind of did the the debate so you album filtered and taken a whole other approach to that as well.

Steve Mason: 34:25

Yeah, I always wanted to do that. One of my favorite albums is is garvies Ghosts, which is the job of Marcus Garvey Burning Spear album. And I'd always loved that idea, you know, and and I was talking to grant from Massive Attack daddy G. I was talking to him one time in Bristol and about this idea and he said, he said, What about Dennis? As the fuck it is a great idea. You know, because I've loved Dennis's style. I love the fact that he's done. He's done everything from the slits to Linton queasy Johnson to orange juice to all kinds of stuff, you know, I mean, he's just a hell of a lot of fun. Oh, my God, he how you'd have to be a corpse not to be laughing your head off? Yeah, then five minutes

Eamonn Forde, Host: 35:09

is really important that that kind of have people rather than the card as a hard taskmaster in the studio have people that you get on with and can have fun with?

Steve Mason: 35:19

I think if it has to be both, you have to have someone that when when the fucking red light goes on fucking laser beams, you know, right, you have to. But yeah, I think obviously, it's really important that you connect somewhere musically, you know, I might not know everything. While the music he knows me might not know everything I know. But I think that there has to be certain commonalities. And obviously with reggae, you know, obviously, he knows that inside out. And I know a lot about reggae. And you know, he's a big personality. And I just wanted to get in there and sit beside him and watch him do a live dub. And that's kind of kind of what he did. So he did new backing tracks reggae backing tracks for every song. He got his horn players from the Dennis Bovell dog band. And then that's what he did a dub of

Eamonn Forde, Host: 36:03

you all right, with him just kind of go hand in the tapes over and go and do whatever you want. Now, well, I

Steve Mason: 36:08

think that's I'm with Andrew and it's, you know, just destroy it. Right? You know, what is the point of me getting involved in somebody with that much experience and that much knowledge, if you're gonna hire them, then you've got to go all in, you know, you got to go all in otherwise, there's no point

Eamonn Forde, Host: 36:25

I was the the transition and to work in with someone like Steven straight, because I guess he had a completely different approach. And I remember, I've read some interviews with you at the time around about the light. And you said that you liked the fact that it was going to create as a band going back to the point we were a reason earlier by kind of you felt maybe slightly adrift as a solo artist, and you missed that kind of dynamic was that yeah, all come together, it's kind of one thing get Steven in. And then also go, this has to be a band centric album, rather than just me

Steve Mason: 36:57

know, it was already before he even approached Steven, we were I got the band into the rehearsal room. And we were working on the songs together, for a lot of different reasons, partly because I missed the thing of just working on things with a band and trying to try things out, you could just try something out straight away. And you've got understand what I usually when I write music, and in a Pro Tools session, you know, recording each individual part recording the drums recording the bass, and if you want to hear it slightly sped up, or if you want to, it's a lot of work. So obviously with a band, you can just go Okay, let's try a bit faster. Or let's try the chorus, you know, there instead of there. So it makes things a lot easier. Plus, the other thing was at that point, I just got married, I just become a dad, I was trying to buy a house, I had, I had a lot on my plate in my personal life. So I wanted to try and make things as easy as possible. Because, you know, in the past, I've had mental health issues. And I know that when things start stacking up like that for me, you know, I'm fine now. But are you it's always at the back of my mind. Sometimes, though, when issues and pressure starts to stack up like that, I always worry a little bit that I might crumble, you know. So it was partly a kind of preemptive strike against any sort of, you know, mental wobbles. Okay, you know, you've

Eamonn Forde, Host: 38:23

been very open about a lot of a lot of the problems that you've had in the past and the the struggles you've had, and the kind of a lot of the dark thoughts that have kind of gone through your head at various points? And is the music industry, a lot more understanding of this now?

Steve Mason: 38:39

I can't comment largely on what it's like now, because I don't have any of those issues now that I'm lucky that I dealt with my problems, and I'm really absolutely fine now. So I don't know, from my point of view, but I would certainly think from stories, I hear more on major labels than anything else. Know that it's learned this lesson too much. However, it's now mandatory for labels to have some kind of mental health person on site to deal with people that are having problems, which was something that is never happened in my day. That's really, really healthy. The problem in my day was that, um, it made my day on a major label was that the industry was full of maniacs. It was full of people with completely unreasonable behavior, completely unreasonable demands, people that were drinking too much people that were doing too much drugs, people that used to get into fights, people that used to do all kinds of things. That was normal. Yeah. And it wasn't just people in bands. It was the a&r man and everyone you know, the the press people, everyone, somebody like me, didn't stick out like a sore thumb at all. It was fucking normal. Really. It was only when I'm not picking them out for any reason other than they happened at my time. But you know, a band like Coldplay come along, and they all seem very sensible, and middle class and lovely and all sorted. And they've often very nicely, this is what they seem like, I don't know what these guys are like, personally whatsoever, I have no fucking idea. I'm just saying, on the surface level, this is what it seemed like, whereas the norm is the exact opposite of that, or it was back then. But the whole industry is completely different. Now nowadays, I would say it's mostly populated by people who are from very well adjusted backgrounds. They've all been to state school and BRIT School and what have you, they've had their marketing training, and they're, you know, it's all pretty, mostly pretty fucking dull. And I'm not saying I would replace that with a whole load of people with mental health issues, because that's just nuts. Because I've been there myself, I think that it was difficult. Yeah, it was difficult. But you have to understand I'm saying this is from being one of those people myself, you know, and this may sound like a crazy thing to say, but I think that you have this, it is important as cutthroat and horrible as it sounds, it's important to balance, what somebody who's struggling a little bit is going through with their output, is their output is amazing. You know, and when, and when I was suffering, my output was really amazing. You know, in terms of my writing my lyrics, and, and the thoughts I had the imagination I had for creativity. And as I say, I'm not in any way advocating some sort of record label for people with mental health issues, which is just like, you know, like Bedlam, with a pressing plant or anything like that, because that would just be awful. And it's awful to have people who are just cut adrift like that, and don't have anyone looking out for them don't have anyone helping them. But as I say, you know, it seems to be standard issue now that that labels have to provide some sort of mental health on site for people on the label, who are having issues are

Eamonn Forde, Host: 42:07

great, yeah. Also, if you have a good manager that fight your corner, I remember speaking to ally Giles, who manages Bill Ryder Jones, and he's obviously got well documented problem. And he said, when he's doing Anathan, record, an album returns, he has like huge kind of brakes built in. And they're kind of non negotiable, that you're not going to put him on a six week tour, because he's not going to be able to finish it, he can't spend six weeks in a row in the studio. So it's like, and it seems like that couldn't have happened in the 90s, I don't think he would have had people who would have been so attuned to those things to go, let's take small steps to get to the destination, rather than just rushing there.

Steve Mason: 42:46

We just need a strong manager to stand up for what the ISP is, and just let the label say, Well, look, this is actually what's happening. He's in the studio for two weeks, he's having a week off. He says, Hello, two weeks, he's having a week off. And that's it. There's some you know, some people need a structure, it can be the lack of structure that gets to you and any, you know, if you're in the studio for four weeks, or six weeks, or if you're on tour for six weeks, or two months or three months, and you start to feel very cut off and and lonely and and then you you know, you start going out with people after the show. It's very easy for the wheels to come off especially. And sometimes people find it most odd when they come off to come back. Well

Eamonn Forde, Host: 43:25

I'm reminded of friends of mine are Sasha musicians and they used to play in KT Tunstall band, and they said they and they're obviously not the focus of attention here. He was getting all the MIDI and all the interviews, all that sort of stuff. And they said they were coming off a big tour, I think they've probably been away for the guts of a year and they were all dropped off of Victoria Station. And they all kind of looked at each other god, how do we go home? How do we use the tube and the bus because everything would be done for them. So even that period of kind of reentry into normal life is very difficult and it's obviously way more amplified if you're the focal point.

Steve Mason: 44:00

Yeah, I've everyone that's in a band that was around London and has that has had that thing we the two of us stopped to Victoria Station, everyone piles it like slug, what do we do? Usually most people had to flee to the nearest pub. But yeah, I mean, it's weird. I mean, I, I don't turn for such great lengths of time now. But when I did you come back off tour and everyone, all your friends and your, your partner's lives have moved on, you know, they're all doing different things, and then you suddenly start to feel not part of it anymore. And and you're different as well, you know, you're different. And it's a strange existence is a very strange and that's why, you know, as much as you know, we can see and talk about the band side of it and the issues that the bands have mentally but I think in terms of the road crews and the on the front of house sound engineers, I mean, those guys are on to, you know, probably 80 to 90% of their lives. Yeah. The issues that I see amongst those guys Eyes far outweigh any issues I've seen on the other side, you know, because they have no roots really whatsoever, they can't hold down any kind of study of relationships, they see various friends or girlfriends or boyfriends in different parts of the world, but trying to keep a steady relationship going at home. Forget it, you know, forget.

Keith Jopling: 45:18

The art of longevity is a team effort. show is produced by the songs of Lea, that's me. With project manager. It's audio engineered and edited by audio culture. Our amazing cover up is by the wonderful Mick Clark. And original music for the show is by Andrew James Johnson,

Eamonn Forde, Host: 45:39

to talk of the lawyer side of things, how have you found that in the last two years, when obviously, it was pretty much impossible to tour that huge part of your life was closed off, have you kind of adapted to

Steve Mason: 45:51

that? I went into the lock down thing. That's when I was should have been writing. So I was already out of a touring schedule, and into what was supposed to be a writing thing. But I really struggled to be creative at all, you know, for a long time during the lock downs. But then money, you know, because it starts to become an issue because, you know, nowadays sighs done probably 80% of their income from why so and then the album was taking a long time, you know, so to come together. So yeah, I did it. Just before Christmas, when the Omicron variant thing happened. So you sort of felt that that was snapping at your heels, every gig that any minute now, they were gonna say, right, stop, you know. I mean, the big issue for me now is that the album is finished. But you have an eight to 12 month lead time on vinyl. Now. Yeah, I have a big financial gap now, which I'm not exactly sure how I'm going to fill just yet. So it's that you have to stay positive, and you have to stay in the frame of mind that it's all going to be okay. And that you just have to keep moving forward. Because you know, I know from bitter experience that if you let these things get to you, then you start to tread water, and then you can start going backwards instead of forwards. And then you really are in a lot of trouble. So I'm just trying to kind of keep pushing people to try and get some work. And this year is going to be the most difficult one, I think for me. So what's the plan then for the new album? You

Eamonn Forde, Host: 47:28

said that you beyond a few little overdubs here and there, it's pretty much done. And then you've got this whole issue of the incredible lead times at the press and plans to get the vinyl version out there. Are you looking at a kind of end of this year release? And of the summer? Maybe? I

Steve Mason: 47:47

don't know, I don't know. I mean, we need to we need to go in and have a meeting with the with Lawrence Domino and just figure that out. I think the other thing I learned from my time in industry is suggests let people do their fucking job. You know, Lawrence has been very much involved throughout the whole process of this album, and he's heard it in all the various stages. So you know, now it's now it's done. And he's really, really happy with it. And publishing departments very happy with it. So I need to let them come up with a plan and do their job and to give it the best chance because, yeah, I might, I might be struggling financially, but I'll be able to find some way of plugging these gaps. You know, the best thing, the most important thing is giving that album, the best chance and possibly can have, you know, because there is a great record, and it needs to be heard. And it doesn't matter if it doesn't come out till next year, because it's not fashion sensitive. Right? Okay,

Eamonn Forde, Host: 48:41

not not not time sensitive. Do you like having that label structure around you as well? Because obviously, there's a huge number of opportunities for already, particularly someone like you, you've got an established name, you've got a client, you've got an audience, it's kind of already built. Do you still want that label around new term? Or word? Have you considered doing it yourself? Become your own label? Or do label services deal or something like that?

Steve Mason: 49:09

Not really, no, not seriously. I guess it's, I come from that generation that always wanted to be signed, right? You know, I'm sure kids and young people coming up now they think in a very different way. I like being on a label. I like being on Domino's, it's a very special place to be and I feel quite privileged to be on Domino's. And Lawrence is fantastic. And I mean, they all are everyone I work with. So I like that I suppose I like that feeling of people being involved and working for you and, and talking to them and making a plan and and then having the faith because domino don't have to do anything they don't want to do so. You know, you kind of feel like if they gonna put this record out then it's worth putting out you know, and I think you get a bit of confidence from that and

Eamonn Forde, Host: 49:59

yeah, you live get kind of how prolific Domino's is, it's almost like an album a week they put, they sign a lot of stuff. And they're not so concerned about this has to make money. There's lots of things in Lawrence we sign or other people at the label will sign up, just go, Well, this is good. We'd like we just want this record to be it. And it's not. So driven by the bottom line, obviously, they'll, they'll have an Arctic Monkeys album will come along every couple of years that can come into play, he'll pay for everything else. But it just seems that though, they've managed to strike a really good balance between art and commerce, which is not an easy thing to do. And I guess, being part of that family must be good as well, where you've got encouragement from a label that will prioritize the art.

Steve Mason: 50:46

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that whole art and commerce thing, that's the thing I've been struggling with my whole life, really, I mean, I've managed to make a living out of it. And I've never felt I've artistically compromised myself. So I guess that is quite a success. But for a label, yeah. For label, it's much more difficult because they need they have to have, they have to have some sort of income from somewhere to keep the whole thing going. And as you say, they've got a lot of people on that label. And they're so busy all the time. But yeah, they do. They do it really, really well. And, you know, Lawrence only puts out records that he that he believes in, it's nice

Eamonn Forde, Host: 51:22

to hear an artist who is favorable towards the labels, because obviously, in the last couple of years with things like broken record, they, their labels are often invariably the majors, but some independents are held up as these kind of evil people that are screwing over all this and exploiting them, and they're all terrible, but it's nice to hear an artist actually go well, yeah, they serve a very clear function and and understand and how they fit into what you do. And I guess having a really good relationship makes things good for both.

Steve Mason: 51:50

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I think the more that you involve them and create personal relationships and stuff like that, the better you know, and it's, it's taken me a long time to sort of as stupid as it makes me sound. It's taken me a long time to sort of realize, to realize that these things are important that I think initially when I came into this, she just thought everyone was the enemy. No, right. Yeah. And that's a huge mistake, you know, and some people are, some people are just vacuous self serve, serving, you know, halls of Babylon, but they're in between those people. There are one or two, who are really the gold dust that you need to keep close by your side, you know, and, you know, I wish I'd I wished I'd seen at the time that Myles Leonard was actually one of those people, you know, I mean, it's much more clear for me to be able to see that now. It's just about growing up and becoming a bit more mature. And having experience in industry. Well, while you're

Eamonn Forde, Host: 52:54

naive, I guess this year is your quarter century as a recording artist, you're an industry veteran? How do you feel that your career has gone in those 25 years?

Steve Mason: 53:06

If you do what I do, and you're serious about it, then you always want more. I've always wanted massive success, but I've wanted it on my own terms. And that's always that's where the issues crop up. So to say that I was 100% happy with where I am, I'd have to say no, but I don't see that as a negative necessarily a negative thing, because it's that feeling that pushes you on to always do more to try and better yourself and, and be more creative and, and make greater art. Am I proud of things I've done? Yeah, I'm very, very proud of the be a band. I'm very, very proud of the fact that I have survived. And I still am a musician, a professional musician, I still can make a living out of it. And I'm still making art, you know. And so I think one of the things that you appreciate when you get older is the fact is those facts. It is a very special thing to be able to do I still, if I'm taking my daughter to nursery or whatever, and I get talking to one of the other parents and they say to me what, you know, what do you do? There's nothing in the world like saying I'm a musician. Yeah. And I remember, you know, when I was when me and Gordon first sort of started doing stuff, and you know, and we used to walk around with our guitars. It was incredibly exciting. And it still is still is now that the idea of saying I was something else would be very, very, very difficult. So what I'm saying is that he I still feel very privileged to do what I do very privileged, and I think that's locked down. And the last two years is probably really heightened that sense as well, when you couldn't do it really, you know, like everyone, everyone's had financial worries. You wonder if you're still doing the right thing and if you need to kind of change or whatever, but I think it's Having the courage and the confidence within yourself to keep going. And I'm lucky that I did have that. And I've ended up with what's a pretty spectacular record, you know?

Eamonn Forde, Host: 55:09

Yeah. So another 25 years straight ahead of you.

Steve Mason: 55:14

Can you imagine? Wow,

Eamonn Forde, Host: 55:16

Mick Jagger still do it i Paul McCartney still do that.

Steve Mason: 55:19

I'm lucky that I'm not known for really doing one type of music, you know, I'm known for being quite eclectic. So I love I'm lucky that I have the idea that I could kind of make any kind of record that I want. And so that's, that's really good. I don't have to tread water making music that I'm not really that into. And, you know, I can make gent things that excite me. And that's really what it's all about. Yeah, I have to make things that excite me. And I know that if they excite me that they're going to be really good. Will you be

Eamonn Forde, Host: 55:50

going on tour as well, because I think the last time I saw you was when you did that big show at the Barbican. Well, that was kind of like a career retrospective where you're playing like, there was lots of beat and band stuff that was solo staff was King biscuit type of stuff. And that felt like, kind of always presenting this great body of work. Is that going to be the way that you will tour? Or do you tend to focus just on the new stuff?

Steve Mason: 56:15

I think what I tend to do is a bit of a mixture sometimes are playing mainly a new album, and, and a couple of sort of older tracks that are popular. And then like, for example, the tour I did just before Christmas, you know, I did have some older beat up and stuff on that too, you know, as well as some some newer stuff. So you just have to kind of keep switching around. Really? Yeah, just keep switching around. And I don't really I'm not massively keen on playing the old stuff. So but you also can't be precious. And you have to give people what they want to an extent. Yeah, you know, I think my audience understand that sometimes I am not that into playing old tracks. And sometimes,

Eamonn Forde, Host: 57:02

sometimes I don't mind you're interested in doing those kinds of play the album in filters? No,

Steve Mason: 57:09

not really. No, I mean, I've kind of nostalgia just leaves me cold. You know, I hate it. There's a time for looking back. And there will be a time for me to look back. But it's not now. You know, and I think that I think that I always feel that people that are doing that oftentimes have run out of ideas. Once you stop looking forward, and you're just constantly looking back to the end of it. Really, I think, Wow,

Eamonn Forde, Host: 57:31

that's a very good note to end on. Right. Thank you for joining us, Steve. That was fascinating. And hopefully we will get the new album this year, hopefully.

Steve Mason: 57:41

I hope so. Yeah, I think I think you're gonna enjoy it.

Eamonn Forde, Host: 57:43

Thank you for taking the time to speak to us.

Steve Mason: 57:46

My pleasure.