Hi, Keith. How are you?
Keith Jopling:I'm good. I'm good. How are you? You're in sunny Glasgow. How are you feeling? Good. The summer's arrived there.
Stuart Murdoch, Belle and Sebastian:Yeah, summer comes in the middle of March and then finishes about the middle of April.
Keith Jopling:Crazy times? And are you feeling kind of longevity is ready for a career spanning discussion?
Stuart Murdoch, Belle and Sebastian:I think I am I feel mature enough to broach this topic now.
Keith Jopling:Okay, it definitely takes a while before you can come around to the idea of looking back. Because I mean, a lot of musicians just want to keep on moving forward. I know you've been like that in the past.
Stuart Murdoch, Belle and Sebastian:I think that's the same thing with life. Actually even doing some interviews for this record. I think you get to a point where you're not young anymore. Things aren't opening up anymore. You see the whole span of your life, including the end.
Keith Jopling:Yeah, mortality is good for focus in the mind I. Yeah, I mean, you've been into Buddhism as well for a while, haven't you, which, I guess must impact you as a musician, right. I mean, this good material in there isn't simply
Stuart Murdoch, Belle and Sebastian:material. It definitely impacts you as a person. I mean, that one of the mantras, decision walk in the Buddhist center, there's always some monk or nun saying, you may die tonight, you may die tomorrow, and they're not being more of a detail. They're seeing it with a smile. They're saying, either be ready for it or make the most out of what you have.
Keith Jopling:So I've been listening to a bit of previous, I've spent 48 hours with it. So it's not too long. But that's coming across, you know, it's got that kind of philosophical aspect to it. It feels like a bit of a longevity record in a way. Just tell me a little bit about it from your perspective.
Stuart Murdoch, Belle and Sebastian:Well, it was a very nice process. We were meant to go to America to Korea, and just that the eve of us leaving the pandemic started. Like everybody, we had to wait for six months before we could do anything. Then we decided not to go to America, we would transform our studio into a recording studio from being a rehearsal studio and make it COVID safe for everybody give everybody a little duckets rooms. And yeah, and then I think the second lockdown came. But finally in February of last year, we were ready to go. And of course by that time we'd actually I had written quite a number of new tunes. Not necessarily pandemic tunes, but certainly coming from kind of solitary place. Quite a philosophical place. Yeah,
Keith Jopling:so the pandemic wasn't impacting the song so much, but the process I mean, I guess if you were going to go to LA to record this record, and you ended up recording it in Glasgow. There's gonna be something different about that, I guess it
Stuart Murdoch, Belle and Sebastian:would have been a completely different record, we were going to work with Sean Everett, who is an esteemed producer. And what we like to do, you know, for working with a producers got a sound and a reputation. And we'd like to kind of put ourselves in their hands. And that goes for songwriting, too. I think you, you have to meet them halfway. You have to think okay, well, you know what I'm going to ditch, I'm going to ditch my little acoustic melodies I'm going to do you know, we're going to go for a bigger sound, we're going to go for a jazzy said, we're gonna go for hip hop sound, you meet the producer halfway, and you write with them, or you write for them. And maybe that sounds strange that you would do that. But it happens. But we were very happy. I was very happy. Just producing it ourselves, with our colleague, Brian McNeil in, in our studio, we used to produce all our own records, I felt it was about time we did that.
Keith Jopling:Some of that seems to have definitely stuck, then because listening to it, it struck me, this is quite a robust record. It's got some power to it. I've always thought Belle and Sebastian was kind of the antithesis of rock and roll, but there is some rock and roll in it somewhere. And a lot of soul. Was that something that has just emerged in the past six years, because it's six years since you've made a full album? Yeah,
Stuart Murdoch, Belle and Sebastian:we wanted to make a good record. And we've been recording since the last few records. But we did a soundtrack record and we did a bunch of we did a bunch of EPs, and we fell on the EPS, we could, you know, we could explore it a little bit and, but this time, we really wanted to bring it back, you know, to give it our best shot, to do a proper record with singles. And because the record company asked us to, and we like those guys were obliging, you know, we gave it our best shot we did we flexed our producer muscles to an extent. You know, we used everything we learned. Also, I think having more time in Glasgow, rather than going to LA and playing as an ensemble with songs that are already rehearse, which we often do when we go to make a record. This time, we could we could roll up, as I often did with a song that was only just written or it's just partly written. And I'll maybe stick down a piano vocal, and then we'll maybe program some drums. And we'll, we'll build it up from there so that it was a little bit different.
Keith Jopling:Yeah, did it remind you of some of the early ways that you recorded I guess those first few records?
Stuart Murdoch, Belle and Sebastian:Well, the funny thing is the early especially the first two records, I was super organized, because back then students were so expensive, that it was almost like a sacred place, you had to have your homework done. Ready. So on the first record, Tiger milk we were ready to go in. And the same with sinister. We recorded those both in days. And it wasn't till maybe the third and fourth record that we started to breathe a little bit, realized we had a little bit more time. So actually, I guess this record process was that maybe our mindset was maybe more like our fourth record, fold your hands child. But the key the key thing is I think we'd learned or we had producer Charles by this time,
Keith Jopling:making this record that's got some potential hit songs on its we said like, you know, some nice choruses. Would it be nice to have a hit?
Stuart Murdoch, Belle and Sebastian:Yeah, I think it would be of course, it would be nice. I love I mean, come on, all the music I listened to is most of it is hit music. So music hit music, you know, I mean, the people that were producing the records that I love, would have counted themselves as failures if they hadn't had hit records. And so in a sense, we're a little bit of an anomaly in pop music that we were managed to trundle along at a you know, with a fairly decent fan base without getting any hits. But what constitutes a hit this is you know, if you wrote Ticket to Ride and put it out and it had never been written, it would probably be seen as quite a you know, a charming in the solo record and maybe getting COVID play, give me wouldn't be a hit. So how do you get ahead? I was in the dentist this morning, listen to Capitol radio, and I've very rarely just listened to the music of the day. And you know, the words weren't really seeing much and I can't do that. I can't do that. I don't really understand how to do that.
Keith Jopling:I think there's so many hits that you might hear on the radio certainly on Capitol already been written to a formula and if you writing a song that is just pure from the heart, as you've always written the song, I guess it's it's just a random walk, whether you're gonna have a hit or not, and it's less likely than then more likely, but no, just listening to it comparing it with the catalog. Yeah, it just feels like a solid album with quite a few singles on it. I mean, how do you compare this record? I mean, I know it's early days. But in terms of its sound and style, how do you think it sort of fits into the bit over so to speak? Yeah,
Stuart Murdoch, Belle and Sebastian:it's maybe a little bit early for, to see how it's going to be perceived over over time. And I don't mind that I quite like the fact that the perception of your music is shaped by the way it's perceived. I think that's, I think that's part of it. I mean, somebody told me that we had the zeitgeist around the time of over the Arab strap and what I'd ask them what Zeitgeist meant. They said no, just for that little window time, builds a bathroom, it seems like you're going to rule the world you're going to do. And I wish they told me at the time, because I was at a basement trying to make the next record, I didn't really care. So it's just funny how you, sometimes you'll only learn afterwards, how you are perceived. Yeah,
Keith Jopling:I was really intrigued by that. Because you were so single minded about the way you wanted to write songs the way you wanted the band to sound. That mean, you sort of struck me as being a bit like a pied piper characters that you weren't, you just had something in mind. And the audience kind of came to you and converged around it. But that's a niche, right? That is, you know, the audience you were looking for originally, then, you know, as you had those early hits. So you got into the charts, and you started getting awards, and you're recognized in the Brits, and all of that stuff. You're one of these bands that just so genre hopping, so it's built around your vision. Therefore, when I read about Balanced Sebastian, reading reviews, or just sort of doing even the research for this, like, people are struggling to really describe you. Well,
Stuart Murdoch, Belle and Sebastian:I didn't really mind. Sometimes again, a taxi driver will say, What's your job and you see, or you end up seeing you're in a band, what kind of music is it? Sometimes I'm stuck, I don't know what to say. It's kind of it's kind of folkies kind of Rock and roll's kind of, it's kind of all. You know, it's kind of sensitive in de, but I did have an an inkling, even before the group was formed, or just as the group was forming, because the, the group came together very suddenly, very quickly. And then suddenly, we're making our first record, I just had this notion that I had songs at the time. And there was an audience for them. Because I had been writing for a while and I was thinking, Oh, this is okay, I don't know, suddenly, my songwriting got better. It just suddenly started to flow. And I was writing, I remember I wrote dog on wheels, uncle, dog, and wheels. And I wrote a song called the stadium in the next day, and I wrote a song called Lord Anthony, just after that, nothing, I thought these songs have got an audience. And in the past, there had been dismissed, and they had a certain thing, their descent connection with their audience, I felt that these songs were, you know, maybe in the same ballpark of an audience. But I suppose there was a sensitivity to them without wanting to blow my own trumpet. There was a sensibility about the words, and the stories and where they were coming from. And I just thought, there's people like me, because I wrote the songs for me. I mean, that was basically moaning about my circumstance, and trying to share my circumstance, so that I could feel better about it. And I felt that if I could share my circumstance, that there would be people in a similar circumstance, that would get it, and we'd want to step into that world. Absolutely.
Keith Jopling:And that is, you know, where those songs just relate, right? Just deeply connect, because everybody's doing that everybody's fumbling through. And you're I can understand that that connection was there, with the people around you that you could see, you know, wandering the leafy West and the Glasgow or whatever. And going from cafe to cafe that you described, the people that you were observing, did you get a notion, though, then that there was a global audience for that, and
Stuart Murdoch, Belle and Sebastian:not straight away, because it was very g 12. It was very by postcode area that I was, you know, obsessed with, I didn't go much I didn't get out much I was. So it wasn't till maybe, you know, a year or so when that we started to get the first letters back from the States or something. Within six months of the band forming. They took us to America, not to play but to some record label wanted to sign as an actually took us to New York just to show us around, you know that we might have thought there was an audience over there.
Keith Jopling:I mean, you were gonna go to San Francisco when you instead of staying in Glasgow and forming balance Sebastian at that time,
Stuart Murdoch, Belle and Sebastian:I'd had an early kind of adventure. And in California, that was really the only place I've been and my friends and I went over in the early 90s. And when I came back to Glasgow, there was a good three, almost almost four years of me writing songs and Playing an open mics and trying to get with people and just not being able to get a band together. And I was coming to the end of my tether, I was thinking, What do you know, California there, people are really open, you know that I was getting quite a lot of criticism. Believe it or not, I was getting a lot of criticism in Scotland, just for just for doing what I was trying to do, even though I hadn't done anything yet, because it was different. So yeah, I was thinking San Francisco is looking good at this minute. Back
Keith Jopling:in those days, there was still a stigma around, you know, being confessional and, you know, writing those kind of lyrics about what was going on under the surface, right. Yeah.
Stuart Murdoch, Belle and Sebastian:But not only that, I was the scene within the scene, there was a kind of pop scene going on in Glasgow that was very, looking back to the 60s and 70s. And there was a definite feeling that the best pop music had been written. So why bother? Either you should go, you should go tongue in cheek and do a full on 60, Steve Marriott, like just be mods and just do that be backward looking pastiche, or else don't do it? The suggestion, and the suggestion to me was definitely don't do it.
Keith Jopling:The art of longevity is presented with Bowers and Wilkins, a premium British audio Brown, Bowers and Wilkins loudspeakers are trusted by some of the world's leading recording studios, including Abbey Road. It's a pleasure to have Bowers and Wilkins supporting the show. Yeah, that's really interesting. There's a kind of weight that bears down on you that when you're writing new music, and especially when you have, you know, the ambition that you have to record that with like minded people get it out there in the world, that you're kind of competing with all the world's music, and you got your record collection, just sort of staring at you in a sort of slightly threatening way. Just saying that, no, you can never do this. But you had an incredible self beliefs, though. Well,
Stuart Murdoch, Belle and Sebastian:I didn't, I didn't mind the record collection that came back because I got past that I didn't care. I didn't care about old records. At that point. I didn't care. I had my own songs. I was in my own world, but I remember being at your parties and gigs and stuff. And somebody asked me somebody's doing and so when I'm trying to get a band together, Sega, and they'd be like, Oh, God, you know, just why bother, you know, like, and like, if you roll back, I remember a specific instance, for years before when I just got to San Francisco. And this was still when I was quite ill with me and I only just wanted just made it to San Francisco. And we were knackered and, and we were on the steps of the youth hostel. And somebody had a guitar and I'd only just learned play guitar. And I could only play a couple of chords. And I signed one of the first songs that I'd written I was just working on, and there was a woman there. looked at me go, you're gonna make it. She said, You're gonna make it. I liked those words, and you have a good look. And I just I thought she was joking. And nobody in Scotland or the UK would ever be so forward as to say something like that. But she wasn't joking. She just being American.
Keith Jopling:You had some of that affirmation, didn't you from the early band members. But I mean, Seymour Stein said the same thing did you played him a couple of songs acoustically, which you didn't expect to do? And he said, Okay, I'm, I'm sold, or I'm pre sold,
Stuart Murdoch, Belle and Sebastian:or something like that. I mean, that's, you know, he was there to, I guess he was there to see if that was a bit of a weird one. But
Keith Jopling:that was part of your self belief, I think because even then, in those early days, you'd created that buzz. That's what I mean by the pied piper thing. And the buzz just sort of gently started to come to you.
Stuart Murdoch, Belle and Sebastian:We knew we were going to make a record with an indie label called jeep. So we like those guys. And we sort of fell in with them. And them and seamless thinking about this a, you know, you go play a couple songs, I was really uncomfortable, you know that we weren't plugged in there. It didn't sound like the band. I didn't want to play acoustic songs. And, and after that I swore I'd never do anything like that again, you know. So, you know, even though it was similar, stay in this famous guy. And he was in my neighborhoods. We were very stubborn, we did have a fixed vision of what was important.
Keith Jopling:And Mark Jones Jeepster, of course, was your biggest proponent at the time, he must have injected some self belief into you as well. And, and obviously you stuck with him, because at that point, when you'd made Tiger milk, a lot of labels then started to sort of sniff around you. They were coming from London, they were coming from the US and you could assign anywhere that you signed with Jeepster. But that was also just part of your self belief, wasn't it? Or was it just a bit of naivety?
Stuart Murdoch, Belle and Sebastian:It felt like fate. I couldn't but help being putting myself in the hands of fate. And you know, I was I was big into God then I'm still God, but you know, I'm gay. I feel guided by that stuff, especially when I had been ill for so many yours, we'd fallen in with the still college kids. And then the person that was to be our manager, Neil Robertson was in the class. He was actually in the class, it's still college. And it was him that too, they got the demo to Jeepster because he was scouting for Jeepster. So that's why Jeeps had got a hit, they got the jump on the labels and read the labels in London, you know, Mark Jones came up to, to Glasgow, it kind of just felt like fade is this funny guy in a in a silver, like an astronaut silver puffer jacket, sitting in the greasy Glasgow cafe, telling us, I'm gonna make you big men have anything you want. And it was like, it was like, it was like a national it was like a person from another world. You had to admire his enthusiasm.
Keith Jopling:Yeah, I guess he was sounding every bit like the kind of industry impresario, but it wasn't that experienced himself if he had it was sort of funded by a stockbroker or something as a partner wasn't in the early Yes,
Stuart Murdoch, Belle and Sebastian:death. And so we definitely liked that aspect. They were a starter pack, and we were just starting up as well. So we could kind of go hand in hand.
Keith Jopling:It's an interesting way of forming a band. And I guess you had the vehicle of beatbox, and the Stoke college there as the vessel. Because a lot of bands, I mean, forever, in a day have formed around, you know, city kids, or even kids sitting somewhere in the suburbs board on the dole, not much else to do just playing around with mates and having a dream through music. And you definitely had that. But you had this beatbox program, which was part of the Department of Employment, actually funding new bands. I mean, tell us a little bit about what that meant to you at the time what that gave you.
Stuart Murdoch, Belle and Sebastian:Yeah, I was unemployed. But I was also on the I mean, I was on the sick register. And I had been for years and years, and my doctor had suggested, okay, it's about time you do something, you need to step up your game. So he suggested one of these schemes, and I found out that there was a music scheme. To be honest, on that first day, there seems to be some funny people here, this nice people here, but don't let them teach you anything. This fellow came and played slap bass at us. Like for 45 minutes, he just played slot bass. And that was a huge, he was looking at us, you like with these big eyes going? Am I amazing? You could do this, you could do this if you weren't on and I was just thinking, No, don't let them teach you anything. But you know, they got a desk, they got a few computers, there's some, there's some funny guys here, stick it out.
Keith Jopling:Okay, so tell me where that self belief actually came from.
Stuart Murdoch, Belle and Sebastian:I got ill at the end of the 80s I got me chronic fatigue. So that changed everything. I gave up. Everything I had before I got really ill, and ended up back in my forks and hospital, that sort of stuff. So that was everything cleared after that clean slate, and run about the same time I developed spiritual feelings as well. I think if you clear everything from your life, friends and work and you know, there's space for things to come in. So I had a notion, you know, the feeling about God, I felt it was a garden. And he was guiding me somewhat. So it's an illness God. And then I discovered that I could write songs, those three things together, the songs especially because to me, that seemed like a lifeline to me that there's like somebody thrown a rope to a drowning person. And I was holding on to that rope. Because that was that was something that I could do. And it was not only something I could do, but it was something that actually helped me with my illness and depression. Because I could I could express things. So I'm just kind of talking here. I'm not quite sure if a picture of Self belief comes out. But determination. Absolutely. Because I had so little energy. I was determined to use that energy correctly, and not wastes not waste anything.
Keith Jopling:Yeah, that's really intriguing. Because it sounds like when I read accounts of those early days, you were very focused. And maybe that was related to everything you've just said.
Stuart Murdoch, Belle and Sebastian:I think so considering by the time the band got together. I'd been in this wilderness for six or seven years. Although the band didn't maybe realize what was happening. I realized what was happening and what was happening was this was it was happening. This is you know, my energy comeback a little bit more. I was meeting people I was getting out. I was writing songs people were interested. So I've been waiting for this
Keith Jopling:and you You wrote the story of the band and you Belle and Sebastian, as a short story,
Stuart Murdoch, Belle and Sebastian:the little one on the on the record cover you mean? No.
Keith Jopling:I actually got that from Stuart, David's book in the online cafe where he said, you've written the story. He called it Belle and Sebastian. And that was the way you wanted things to play out. And in fact, there's one thing in the book that really intrigued me, because when you first met Belle, Isabel Campbell, and think you wanted her to join the band, and you would have these sessions with the musicians individually. And you had a session with Isabel Campbell, then you came back to sue and David said, well, sometimes, you know, I had this vision, but it might not work out. So there must have been plenty of instances where people were telling you, along with the lady in the US and see what Stein saying you can do songs and you're going to be big, plenty of people telling you that it wasn't going to work. I'm just sort of intrigued by that particular, me if you can remember anything about it that first meeting with Isabel Campbell? Well,
Stuart Murdoch, Belle and Sebastian:I first met Isabel Campbell in in the queue for the bathroom to a party of a friend's house called Jason MacPhail. And we always and this was the first of January 1996, the or, you know, the last day of the year, first January 19. It was the Hogmanay party, this guy's house and it felt a very significant evening, because I don't I met TV Jack's, and I've been courting Stevie Jackson, for, you know, about a month before a couple of weeks before. And I had invited CB Jackson to this party. And Chris Geddes was there because he was friends with Jason MacPhail. And I think maybe, I'm not sure if Stewart was there. But Stevie didn't get in. And he is annoyed to this day that he could not get knocked back from this party, the significant evening, where I met Isabel in the queue, and we got talking. And she told me that she played the cello, something clicked at that point, because somebody told me earlier about a girl who had been writing her own songs, and who had a taste that was quite similar to mine. And who played the cello. So there she was,
Keith Jopling:and what was it about that sort of first session with her we didn't think it was going to happen, because it wasn't just Isabel was it? It was actually Stuart David said, I don't want to be in your band, but I'll help you start it. And oh, yeah, I'm Stevie was sort of, I don't want to be in another band. But I'll help you start it. So at that point, you knew who you wanted, and you couldn't quite rope them in? Well,
Stuart Murdoch, Belle and Sebastian:that makes sense. No, that's true. I mean, I always, I was quite determined this was going to happen. But as you say, Stevie had was in a band called The Moon dials. They had been working really hard, doing all kinds of business being on the road and back of vans for a couple of years. And they were just taking a kind of break. And he was I think he was enjoying that sort of break. So he didn't want to be in a band. So he said he would help out with a college project, ie, the first quote was to be the first record. And so David was was similar. He had done his apprenticeship, he had left his home, he'd gone to London and had a go of being a solo artist, and then ended up coming back to Scotland and living with his folks. And I met him on the unemployed course. So he was more experienced than me in the in the ways of the music world. He didn't just want to be in my band, so to speak. But at the same time, he actually learned to play bass guitar specifically for the project.
Keith Jopling:Key fear, thanks for listening to the art of longevity. I hope you're enjoying the conversation so far. Please tell your friends, listen back to the other episodes. And don't forget to subscribe on whatever podcast platform back to the conversation. Okay, so let's get into the career a little bit because all of that happened is you were making Tiger milk. And then you did make and it was seen as the precocious debut, but you'd already started writing songs for if you're feeling sinister. And then you started to get recognition from that point. I'm wondering how that felt for you when things started to really take off. And you were getting early indications that you'd be in the charts. And on Top of the Pops and all of that. I mean, what was that like?
Stuart Murdoch, Belle and Sebastian:It didn't happen straightaway that the sorts of things that we got excited about. For instance, I remember, you know, hand delivering Tiger milk to the shops and Glasgow and Edinburgh. There was a copy of Tiger Milken in the shop windows and they were there all summer. And I was kind of embarrassed that nobody had there was only about 500 copies that we because we've given away so many copies and it took us a long time to sell that many copies and I could see that the sleeves sort of fading. So during the summer nervous thinking, this has taken a while. But I think one incident was, we played a show, maybe towards the end of the summer or something the first time, we played in the, in the crypt of a church near the university, and we made our own little tickets and sold the tickets. And that was the first time that people showed up, that we didn't know. And I remember me and Stevie, kind of looking around the metaphorical curtain or something. And we looked out to the audience, you say that people don't do it's packed. And we were suddenly we were really excited. So that that was a kind of indication that starting to, to catch on, as
Keith Jopling:that career got going. And you were starting to sort of solidly make albums and so on. I mean, where did you want it to go at that point, like, say, by the time you'd got to, maybe you'd got beyond if you're feeling sinister, my
Stuart Murdoch, Belle and Sebastian:expectations of what was going to happen with this group was changing all the time, I got to the end of sinister. And I felt, okay, that's what I wanted to say. But I'm looking around me. And there's another seven people that I'm involved with. And there's a life to it, or it could have a life to it. And it's it's much more complicated and complex, the things that been going on in my head. And so from that point onwards, it was a constantly evolving thing. And then there was there was complications with the record labels going on tour, I never thought I would go into it, I never had strange to think about going on tour. And playing live was alternatively fantastic. And very, very difficult because we were a quiet band who were determined in a world of rock to put the cello and the harpsichord up front. So from that point onwards, it was a constant adventure.
Keith Jopling:I remember reading in your book. So by the way, you've as a band, you've just got an amazing series of books. I mean, one of the things I kind of thinking about longevity with bands is they should all have a book and you've got like three or four really good books and the celestial cafe. I remember reading that. And you were describing that in a really interesting way it made it sound like your job was quite hard. Because you'd write about whether, you know that evening was going to go well, and maybe the following entry the following morning was it didn't go so well. That's the first time I'd sort of understood that the life of a pop musician in a band leader singer, was actually quite a hard job. I mean, did it feel like that because you'd had to step up from being shy from being ill and perform.
Stuart Murdoch, Belle and Sebastian:To me the big change came at the end of the 1990s. You know, Izabal kind of laughed and Shurtleff. But we decided to give it a go into a properly. I've been working really hard on the band constantly, but it was always, you know, records and slightly going about things the wrong way and making our own videos all the time. And it was fun. But from that point onwards, we decided to get a little bit more organized, trying to do better shows go on proper tours, US producers, so that we didn't have to be stuck in the studio for so long. And let somebody else do an occasional video. And at that time, the internet just started, I got my first computer. So I started blogging, about just the my everyday experience. And I remember thinking around by that time, the switch went where I thought, there's no reason to keep this stuff secret anymore. There's no reason to be the secret of band. You know, we're public band. No, I'm a semi public figure. Let's just let it all out. And I started writing about, you know, very personal stuff, everyday stuff. And then it never meant to be a book, The celestial cafe was somebody came along, a publisher came along later and said, Could they compile my, my online diary? So it does cover very specific period from maybe 2001 to 2005?
Keith Jopling:Did you feel pressure at that point? Because you were, you had a fan base, you're making records, you're having to step up and perform and go on tour, because it felt like you were revealing some of that in the celestial cafe. But did you feel like, this isn't quite the lifestyle, I imagined when I had the vision to set up the band in the first place.
Stuart Murdoch, Belle and Sebastian:It's funny when you talk about pressure, being in a rock and roll band or being a pop star that feels any alien thing to me that feels like somebody who's been nurtured by record label, who's had a big hit. He's expected to have hits, who needs to write better hits, and we were maybe lucky in that accent. I never felt that kind of pressure. I actually, I wished we had more of that pressure. I wish we had been expected to write more hits or, you know, because we never really had them. So that kind of pressure I could have done with a bit more of the sort of pressure that we did have or I had was made. Be just managing to stay healthy to do what I love that was, that was the trickiest part was going to was tricky because I quite often got viruses, still with the, you know, the me and sometimes I'd be performing, like really just hanging on and they'd have to inject me full of steroids or something to do a show. So that, you know, the pressures are more like everyday, everyday pressures and, you know, juggling the emotions of different people in the group and stuff.
Keith Jopling:Okay, so you were cushioned somehow from the classic band experience where you know, the label is looking for the hit record on all of that. But you did mention that you had come across some of those record company difficulties because Jeepster got into problems, didn't it? Despite the fact that they had you on the roster, they'd signed Snow Patrol, by then they hit some financial difficulties. Did you feel any pressure from that? Or was that partly because they hadn't marketed you as the great big international success that you might have been? You
Stuart Murdoch, Belle and Sebastian:know, I don't know what happened. And with Jeeps turned and actually looking back, they were just starting up. And it's always tricky. You know, if you don't have a big catalog, or a lot of money to build on, we definitely made money for them. But I don't think we because we did things in a non standard way. It was probably tricky for them, and they had Snow Patrol, but the Snow Patrol didn't break through at that point, it took it took a major label to come in and say, just point the fingers and say, okay, Snow Patrol's gonna happen. And it didn't happen. So we decided to move on from that point. And we signed to Rough Trade.
Keith Jopling:And you kind of had a steady progress and audience, as you say, you don't need a hit necessarily, you've got a very loyal core following you got international success. Did you ever feel like, hey, we could be bigger? Why aren't we bigger? Were you comfortable with, with what you've achieved?
Stuart Murdoch, Belle and Sebastian:I'm never I'm never comfortable. I'm always pitching to the group in a semi comedic way. You know, why is nobody, you know, Why does nobody take one of our tunes and say it themselves and make it a hit? Or, you know, why can you know, why can't it just be? Yeah, I've been pitching like that since maybe 2003. But then again, my taste is, you know, I'm not really that in tune with what's going on. You know, I really, I sort of feel like when I if I'm ranting to the record label and ranting to the management or and they probably go behind afterwards and whisper and singer, Jesus just, you know, either isn't another clue. These people are lost in time, they don't realize what it takes. So I don't really know, I remember that. There was a band that I love was coming up in the late 90s called Camera Obscura. And to me, they were just the the best songs. Tracy, Anna had the beautiful voice and the arrangements, and they couldn't even get signed. And I just was lost. I couldn't understand why. But then again, to their credit, they did a little bit what we did that they they build up a following. And then it didn't really matter that the enemy wouldn't review them at all, or they would never appear in the magazine pages. Because once you have a little bit of a following. Nobody can they can't really knock you back.
Keith Jopling:Yeah. And in your case, and many of your early influences were the same, right? I mean, thinking about bands like Feltner tindersticks. That's where they basically got to is that loyal following and you've? You've definitely got that with the bullies, wouldn't they, in any case, kind of protect you from that to some extent. I mean, you are the conversation of I often hear about balance Sebastian is it's a bit secret. It's like you know, yeah, I'm into balance Sebastian as well. And it's a bit like it's got that secret society element to it a little bit and the bowl is are well known to be very, very loyal. In fact, I was reading a review of one of your albums that Alexei Patrice has written it compared the bullies to the Chelsea headhunters so they you know, you you he was too scared to write a scathing review case. These people who you know, dressed in Sue Ryder and talked about Nouvelle Vague would would send him letters written in cat blood
Stuart Murdoch, Belle and Sebastian:would come in, knit them to death.
Keith Jopling:The art of longevity is a team effort. show is produced by the songs of Lea, that's me. With project manager. It's audio engineered and edited by audio culture. Our amazing cover up is by the wonderful Mick Clark. And original music for the show is by Andrew James Johnson. Every band setting out now has a dream of cultivating a loyal fan base. That's the dream that they're not necessarily sold these days on the chart hits and a global audience. They want a low All fan base so they can make a career out of it as a band.
Stuart Murdoch, Belle and Sebastian:There you go. I know it's funny. It's funny what you wish for what you get. The grass is always greener, etc. You know, I mean, even when some people, you know, kids asked me, you must have always wanted to be a singer, when did you Baba? And I was like, Well, I didn't really, I didn't really write a song till I was, you know, 2122. And then it just, it was by accident. You know, they can't really believe that because it's a burning passion for them and their hearts since they were teenagers.
Keith Jopling:I mean, would you make it in today's business? Do you think with the same attitude? You'd started out? So I mean, what would you advise those young bands today? Yeah,
Stuart Murdoch, Belle and Sebastian:I think that's a telling question. Even when I said to you before about the feeling I had about the sensibility of the songs and feeling that there was a right time to step forward. And there was an audience, I felt that and it's such a different world. Now. I'm not saying that people are people do have the sensibilities, but I don't think that they're necessarily going to find it in an an indie band from from Scotland, you know, that there's the internet and people can have people can talk about their emotions and to their heart's content online, and tell everybody how they feel, to an extent, the whole journey of balance of us might have just been able to happen at that time and place. And then again, if you'd gone back, if we'd happened 10 or 15 years or 20 years beforehand, maybe we would have been like the Hollies or the you know, or maybe we'd be we'd be having head after heads, you know, because some of those songs are maybe worth they have them. But you know, it's
Keith Jopling:yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? And just tell me about what you'd like to achieve from here. So you know, we we've talked about the album's and I think you've made a great album, by the way, I really do. I'm really enjoying this album, I can't wait to just sort of take it out of the record sleeve and put it on properly listening to it is as a stream of pre release stuff. It doesn't do it justice, but I've been glued to it already. So that's going to be, I think, really interesting that you can be doing this for 25 years and still make a record like that, that feels like you're on top of your game.
Stuart Murdoch, Belle and Sebastian:That's good. I mean, it's funny, because I was listening to we're making a video clip for young and stupid, just know, which is the first track. And even in terms of production, and in my mind, I just I kind of wish we were on Top of the Pops in the 70s. Like we're like the faces or something like that it's got or paper lace, or one of these, maybe not as cool as the faces, or fisica, or one of those bands that just have kind of one off hits, and you're just smiling and strumming a huge guitar. But I'm not sure if it's going to make a dent in the public imagination now.
Keith Jopling:I really hope it does. I mean, I mean, songs like come on home with a lovely uplifting chorus. There's a there's quite a few choruses in there. I mean, you've got working boy in New York Cities and other definitely, I think a really strong pop song, the single now has become my current theme tune. So you know, if they're shooting at you, kid, you must be doing something right. I'm preaching that to people now. So good sentiment there.
Stuart Murdoch, Belle and Sebastian:Oh, it's, it's stolen as all good sentiments are?
Keith Jopling:Okay, we're just steal it from.
Stuart Murdoch, Belle and Sebastian:It's a series that my wife and I love. She's American. She's the love of a show called The West Wing. Oh, yeah. Which is about an idealistic, democratic American president sort of anti Trump. And this line was, they tried to shoot the president and the president. It turns out, they were trying to shoot the President's assistant who's a, who's a black man. And the reason they're trying to shoot him is because he's having a relationship with the president's daughter. So yeah, so So he's like, he's, you know, obviously, he's like, freaked out a little bit. He has a mentor. And the mentor says, Well, you know, Charlie, if they're, if they're shooting at you, you must be doing something, right. That lane is always stuck in my head. And it just, it just rolled out for that song.
Keith Jopling:And that's what you do, isn't it? I mean, that's the case with a bit of previous isn't it? That's where the album title came from. It's just a conversation with with a band member, wasn't it? Yeah,
Stuart Murdoch, Belle and Sebastian:that was Bob, who was back in Northern Ireland, seeing his dad and he was driving around with his dad and his dad pointed to one of the neighbor's house and said, did you not have a bit of previous with a girl who lived in that house? Which just means you know, you've got a bit of history with a person and we thought that was a great a good title. Yeah.
Keith Jopling:And it's it is a nice title, because it's got when you think about it, it's a throwaway line. But yeah, there's got a lot of meaning there. Particularly when you look at the themes in the songs. Sure, I know we do. Don't have too much longer just live. You've done some really special things live in the last time you had your Bali weekend festival. You did it on the med in a cruise ship. You've done the Hollywood Bowl with the LA Philharmonic Botanic Gardens, you've done some really great things live, what would you like to do from here?
Stuart Murdoch, Belle and Sebastian:Oh, it's funny. I have two modes, which is Studio mode and live mode. And it's I almost haven't got back into when I get back into Live Mode, I suddenly get really enthusiastic about going places and imagining playing places. It has been an understandably difficult time. For obviously, for live, we've really been knocked off course the whole industry has been knocked off course, it's going to take a couple of years to really get back going again and get all the festivals things. But even just we were talking about it the other day, we just haven't we haven't been down South America for years and years. It's been it's been financially difficult to work that out. So even just getting back to the places that we have been quite a few times, like South America or Southeast Asia. It's going to be lovely. I mean, we get to we still get lots of letters when he coming by a lot of emails when you come coming back to to Singapore, Taiwan. So yeah, that's good enough for me just getting to those great places again, ya
Keith Jopling:know, the idea of doing an international tour, a proper international tour just still seemed some way off, doesn't it from where we are right now?
Stuart Murdoch, Belle and Sebastian:Yeah, we're talking about doing another barley at some point, but on land, a little bit more sort of green, you know, the vessel thing wasn't exactly the greenest thing. So yeah, we're talking about getting back to tents and chalets, but maybe in North America somewhere. And
Keith Jopling:what's next for you? As the album is due? How are you preparing and and what are you looking forward to?
Stuart Murdoch, Belle and Sebastian:Yeah, I've been really just really busy with all the stuff. They're still doing artwork, trying to make videos. I've been tendinitis in my shoulder. I've got this. I've never had it before. I've almost like a frozen shoulder. Oh, no. And I can't get my hand drowned a guitar just now. So it almost feels a little bit fortunate that the tours were postponed. So I'm working hard with a physio to try. I know that sounds you know, this is typical old age and getting older.
Keith Jopling:It's all part of longevity. You need to fix that fully. Before you can play a guitar. That's you can't just sort of have something injected or take painkillers and just carry on. You've got to fix it fully first, well,
Stuart Murdoch, Belle and Sebastian:funnily enough, I am getting something injected on Monday. Some cortisone that should help and but I really, I need to keep it moving. I need to. That's my ambition to get a piano Yeah. might have.
Keith Jopling:Well, let's do it. It's been really great to talk to you. Thanks for coming on. And thanks for just, you know, sharing everything the way that you're accustomed to. I really appreciate it and I wish you all the best with the album. Really love it. And I hope everybody else does. So. I look forward to seeing you soon.
Stuart Murdoch, Belle and Sebastian:Thanks so much, Keith. I hope if almost sorted out the secret of love, ya know,
Keith Jopling:we've definitely got a few more ideas have crept in. Yeah, I'm piecing it together. Yeah,
Stuart Murdoch, Belle and Sebastian:keep your joints moving. You know. Keep supple, warm out. It's
Keith Jopling:really good to talk to Stuart. Really. Okay. Thanks a lot.
Stuart Murdoch, Belle and Sebastian:Thanks, Keith. Bye