But this time, it's going to be even better. I've had even longer to check out your rather extensive back catalogue.
Bruce Hornsby:Wow, that that could leave a mark. Oh my god, I've listened to so much of this guy here. So you've had enough you're so now you're burned with it. So that's fine, whatever, I'm good.
Keith Jopling:I think you break all records, because I don't think I've had a guest on who's made 23 albums.
Bruce Hornsby:Now. Okay, there certainly are a number of people who have done that. So certainly in the jazz world, because in the jazz world, people will make often a record a year in the pop world, frankly, on a compositional level, I feel it's more difficult to write a pop song of some worth or grab a toss, as opposed to writing an instrumental song that often in the jazz world is a vehicle for soloing. But
Keith Jopling:you're on a roll. I mean, you know, you're pretty prolific. I mean, you're going through a prolific period. So let's start with lected. It's been a couple of weeks now. So what's been the reaction to it?
Bruce Hornsby:Well, the reaction has been very, very strong. Look, again, I'm 67 such that like, I'm going to be a tic tac Titan, you know? Well, I had been asked to do the couple of the big time chat shows here in the States, we're not going to be able to do them because my collaborator on the song sidelines as for kainic is getting ready to leave the country for the next six months. So that's, that's too bad, but it's okay. But so it said yes, that the reaction has been is solid at least.
Keith Jopling:Well, you mentioned tick tock. I was gonna ask you about that later anyway, because you might yet become a titan a tick tock. I mean, I think the latest band to join up was Pink Floyd. And of course, you know, you've seen the successes of Fleetwood Mac and Roger, I was reading a PC put out in the Times today about the fact that music industry hasn't changed since 1952 When our queen came on the throne, but he's done pretty well after tick tock so it's only a matter of time, I feel well,
Bruce Hornsby:anything. Anything's possible. I won't rule out the possibility and I'm open to it. I'm open to whatever I just want don't look like a complete clown. Because I know what I look like when I look like a clown and I've done it before I'm good at sucking. And so I'm trying not to do that very, very much more. Well,
Keith Jopling:we're gonna come on to times when you feel like you've you've sucked the past because this is a roller coaster ride of a show. We talk about the highs and the lows. Let's keep on the high for now because you're clearly on a bit of a roll and flicked it was part of The trilogy which is based on a collection of songs based on cues from the music you've done for Spike Lee films. So first of all, just explain to me what that means.
Bruce Hornsby:A cue in a film scoring parlance is just a piece of music for film. They call them cues because they come on at a certain point, the timecode is running across the screen when you're scoring in tenths of seconds, rapid fire flying by that there's a cue that you need to know to hit your mark. The music starts here. When the guy says to the girl at the site in the sidewalk cafe. I'm finished with you. Right, hence the term cue. And so I wrote, I started I've known spike and been working with him for instance, for 30 years since 1992. He made a made a video for me on my upcoming record a song from that called talk of the town, which was great fun, and we continued every few years, he would ask me to do something for him an entitled song and 95 claps Chaka Khan and I wrote a song for him for his great clockers movie 95 kept on going 2001, bamboozled on and on, but in 2008, our relationship kicked into a higher gear when he asked me to score an ESPN documentary on the late great Kobe Bryant, it was called Kobe doing work. And so I did that maybe that was my audition for him. And I guess I passed it because then for the next 11 years, I kept doing this and so I scored six different films for him and did incidental music for a few others, most notably black Klansmen, which was a big hit for him two or three years ago. I'm the guy who did the attitude upright piano. musings are at the Klan rally when they were showing the original DW Griffith birth of the nation 1917 First First Motion Picture. And so that was my role in there. He sort of threw me a musical bone there, though. So okay, in that time, that 11 year period, I wrote about 240 different pieces of music, ranging from 40 seconds, say, to four and a half to five minutes. Through that 11 year period, I would earmark certain cues, certain pieces of music, film scoring music that I that I thought were I thought these these queues were crying out to be turned into songs to be expanded to be sung songs with words. And so I started writing songs in 2017 over these cues. I had my man Wayne set me up with a little file of 14 different sessions, 14 different cues. And I started writing words and singing melodies to the music. And the music was pretty well completed, it was pretty much finished, because all buttoned up everything nice and sounding good, because large production was finally production, which is, of course, no joke. So anyway, that's what I did. And so I kept doing it for absolute zero. And the response to speaking to the being on a roll idea, the response to absolute zero was so intense and so sort of broad based all across across the US and UK and throughout Europe. encomiums did about you know, laudatory remarks. And so and lots of all of a sudden, I started touring the promoters, for instance, in in Europe, got wind of this, it came into their radar, they realized, this guy hasn't been here since 2004. We thought he may never come back. But with this sort of new groundswell of attention and support, and love, they booked me and I did a European tour I did, I played shepherds, Bush empire, played the Glasgow concert hall, Symphony Hall, whatever it's called, beautiful venues, and kept on going on into the continent. So when you have this sort of affirmation, coming your way, in such an intense way, that can't help but inspire you, because you feel like Well, for one thing, it's resonating. It's getting out into the world and being noticed, and lauded and applauded. And so that made me want to do it again. And so it's so that sense that next year, I had another another record.
Keith Jopling:Yeah, so it ended up being a trilogy. Had you composed songs that way before? Like before you started with the cues on absolute zero, no, okay. No,
Bruce Hornsby:I had not done that. So it was a new way of writing and hence it it it led to a different type of song. Most songs written in the pop world, pop music, in the history of pop, rock, or whatever. If a Great American Songbook. The music is made up of chord progressions, a chord and then an A chord. In this whole a lot of the songs were just a sound and a theory or sort of atmospheric cinematic, frankly, for obvious reasons. Sound that didn't involve chord progression. And so yes, that was a very different mode of expression of the song. Absolute Zero was the first song I wrote. And I was giving myself chills while writing it. And that's a perfect example. It's just a very spacey ethereal sound. The chords don't change, much little voicing might change, you'd have to listen to it. I'm trying to describe it. No, I've
Keith Jopling:heard I love the record. If we were dumbing this all down. This is experimental, in a sense, but these these last three albums are kind of a mix of, you know, progressive, avant garde pop, if you like contemporary classical and the way they've been described, they're throwing all these words in I mean, have you formed your own description for this current repertoire period you're going through?
Bruce Hornsby:Well, I think frankly, the terms you use are totally appropriate that they're totally descriptive. They're most of the cues, when you could call them chamber pop. It's a String Orchestra with maybe a little piano and little drums. But then, some of the songs on the record on the records are dealing in more difficult more chromatic dense dissonance, harmonic language songs like blinding light of dreams, or bucketlist on flicked it, or the title song of the second record. nonsecure connection or shits crazy out here, which is influenced by some music from the man who invented 12 Tone Music Dodeca phonic music, Arnold Schoenberg. So there's sherbert beats Elliott Carter, these are names that don't mean by to the average listener, I understand that, but it's one of my that's one of my great passions in the last 1015 years is modern classical music. So what you're calling avant garde pop is is what I'm describing now. So right, a little bit of both, but to me, they're related because they're both a typical they're both not your standard chord progression cord cord cord thing and that's that's the fun of it. I'm in my dough ditch I'm interested in making a sound that I haven't heard before. Yeah, exactly. It will make the music get very complex and maybe off putting to the average white note listener wants their wants to hear wants to live a white life. And then there's the songs like absolute zero or Cleopatra Jones from the drones from the last record or sidelines on this record. It's funny I named that side one cut one of each record because they're all there I didn't realize it until right now they're all sort of have a piece because they're not they're not dealing in difficult dissonant harmonic language. They're kind of spacey but they have that that so I guess you could call them sort of art pop if I if I want to be the pretend pretentious orange beer and
Keith Jopling:it's nothing wrong with that but I mean, I know that comparisons are always difficult in pop but we do them anyway. But listening to these record, it hadn't me going back and listening to some other of my favorite types of pop and I liked this kind of way of making pop that's got the layers of musicality to it so prefab sprout, you know, went back to some prefab sprout, some Thomas Dolby nice. It kind of reminded me of flavors. And then maybe an artist I don't know if you're familiar with but it was my favorite artists for a long time is a guy called Mertz Mar
Bruce Hornsby:tz M er zo. Burts Okay, unaware unaware I had to check out merch Yeah, you
Keith Jopling:should check him out. He had an album called love heart. I think this is back in 99. And it was on a major label he was on Sony was signed and he was very much your the next big thing. But he ended up being too much of the avant garde. And I think there's a there's a parallel story in there somewhere with with the Bruce horns.
Bruce Hornsby:I think that's true. Um, so I just had been unwittingly copying merch all this time. He
Keith Jopling:copied you. Yeah, he came later. But yeah, I liked that kind of music. I've really enjoyed listening to the last three albums. And, you know, the other thing with that I found was afflicted because I wanted to pick out a few songs. And I didn't realize probably until we're having this conversation. The songs I've picked out are actually the more straightforward ones because it's, it is amongst the avant garde, the experimental, the more dissonant stuff where you kind of come up for air occasionally, as you do on days ahead, for example, and it sounds beautiful.
Bruce Hornsby:Well, days ahead. I call it the palate cleanser after the three songs before that, which are real sort of the beat bass sort of very sort of in your face jamming, kind of talk songs, monkey business, maybe now, bucket list is the wildest one of all of them and that gets that gets the most crazy. And so I felt it was time for this odd moment, this moment of a break, you know, from now. So Right? Look at mostly through the years I've written simple songs, a lot of the most simple songs I write I've written are some of my favorites that I've written. So I'm not unlike you. But there are certain times where I want to push the envelope. And I want to have a different mode of expression express something different than just the standard that we've heard. And again, like I say, trying to make a sound that I haven't heard before. And so that will often lead me into these more left field obscure areas of music, and I'm proud of those, but at the same time, my antenna is for realizing that, okay, you're really asking a lot of your audience and so let's put something out there that's a little less demanding and so right days ahead, frankly, the second half of the record is more of that.
Keith Jopling:The oath of longevity is presented with Bowers and Wilkins, a premium British audio brand. Bowers and Wilkins loudspeakers are trusted by some of the world's leading recording studios, including Abbey Road. It's a pleasure to have Bowers and Wilkins supporting the show. And days ahead, of course features Daniel Haim and you've got some pretty cool collaborators on this record, which of course, is making you pretty cool. As for the times we're in so you know, we've got Danielle vampire weekend's as rakonin Justin Vernon, aka bonobo. I mean, they're three of my current favorites. They've been around for a while themselves, but you know, these are very cool people to be collaborating with.
Bruce Hornsby:James Mercer of the shins on the last record should be low woods, the great artists on jagged Jaguar
Keith Jopling:look, I couldn't believe it when I saw that when I went back to that record. So that's nonsecure connection and soldier Miller woods on them. And Jamila Woods is for me. She's one of the most far out neo soul artists on the scene right now. She's amazing.
Bruce Hornsby:Yes, I agree. And I I've been for years, I worked with Robbie Robertson years ago and early 90s. On on his his record, we wrote a song together for his second solo record. One of his main lines was regarding the the act of record making was I want to cast my records like a film director would. Here's, here's Sid song and I want to reflect on who would sound amazing playing or singing on this song. And that's what he would do. So I, I said, Well, that's a great idea. I'll just lift it from him. And so I started doing that I'd already started doing that, frankly, to be honest, on the third range record 19/93 and last night in the town, the floodgates started to open with guests, Wayne Shorter. Shawn Colvin, Charlie Haden Bayla fleck. But then it went farther, Jerry Garcia, and on and on. So I just kept doing that. But then, in 2015, Justin Vernon reached out to me out of the blue, and asked me, he'd been shouting me out in the press, has a big influence on his music when he was just starting. And maybe years after that. And so he asked me to work with him on a song on a part of a Grateful Dead, the indie worlds grateful that a tribute record was 10 CDs. And so he asked me, he always liked my version of the great Garcia Hunter song black, muddy river. And he asked me to do a duet with him on that. So I went to Eau Claire, Wisconsin, where he lives. And we had two days where we just became friends and had a great time making this song. And it just kept on growing and evolving for the next five years. And so I say that he opened this door for me. And I walked through that door, only to find that there were a whole lot more people in that room who felt about me the way he did. So hence the next records with James Mercer and Jamila and Ezra and Danielle and Z Berg and Ethan brusca on the some simple prayer to on this record, so it just kept going never and and read for living color that he was on the last record. He's an old friend of mine. And he worked with Spike and me. He came in and played on some of our film music in the mid 2010 2015 16. So we reconnected and I had him on the last record too. So, but But yes, that's what happened. It's sort of started with Justin. And then my world expanded from there and so lucky me really, it's been great. A great gift. In this late career, sort of Renaissance and in my career,
Keith Jopling:yeah, good for Justin for doing that for kind of opening up that opportunity because they've really borne fruit and particularly your collaborations with him, but they feel like really, really great. Even collaborations as like this touches of classic Bruce Hornsby there. But obviously they bring their own thing to it as well. Yes. And I guess many of these people were talking about they're in awe of a lot of the recordings that were made in, in your heyday back, you know, the first time around in the 80s,
Bruce Hornsby:not just the hits Justin, for instance, transcribed Pat Metheny solo and a Harbor Lights every note when he was when he was a kid. When he and his, his boyhood friend, Phil Cook, had me play at the Eau Claire Music and Arts Festival. The song that they wanted to play with me on Phil's set was fortunate son. You know, from a later record, it's one of my best songs. It's one of my best songs, but little known to the mass populace who knows me from well in the UK, I'm a one hit wonder. There's so there's that. But in America, it's more like a five hit one.
Keith Jopling:But in the UK, we had a we had a bit of an influence on that process, though. No,
Bruce Hornsby:no doubt. It all started in jolly old it's all started started on Radio One. Nick Ville College, Radio One, this jockey put the song on the air and boom, there it went. And so that's that's how it started?
Keith Jopling:Yeah, I was gonna ask you who it was whether you could remember who it was because I was looking through all the interviews and they just said like radio wire and I was saying, Oh, well, it must have been somebody like you know who made the decision who did it?
Bruce Hornsby:Well, the full story is more fun than the short story at the London office of BMG got the record and the embattled and beleaguered promo band Adrian Williams, he's got this record. And he's, he goes to his friend, Nick, Bill coach, and he says Mickey move away at this record. We don't know what to do with it is kind of country. It's kind of jazz. Check it out and see if there's anything in there for you because he had no clue. So Estherville coach took the record home, listen to it, pick this one song, put it on the air boom. So everyone at RCA in America thought it was a B side. And so that was so it was a great it was a wonderful accident is what it was and but that's that's the story. It could have easily not have happened as has happened.
Keith Jopling:Okay, I wasn't gonna mention the way it is. But you brought it up
Bruce Hornsby:my bed. So good. The best part to me of the way it is and it's subsequently subsequently life is the fact that it's been so embraced by the hip hop community and so 20 Plus MD EDM community to Don Diablo EDM magnate over in Europe did a version of it. But of course, most notably Tupac Shakur with his song changes. And then recently, last year, polo G, the great young Chicago rapper, made a record called wishing for a hero, which was a homage to both Tupac song, mostly Tupac song, but also my song, and we did a duet, you can go on YouTube, too, and find a performance for last year's virtual Bonnaroo Festival, where polo and Polje and I remotely play together. Pa no beat just piatto is the rhythm. Right? Okay, piano and rat and yeah, it's great fun. Yeah, no,
Keith Jopling:I looked it up on WhoSampled actually, because I mean, I love WhoSampled and I'm addicted to it. So 2024 I counted. Okay.
Bruce Hornsby:24 That sounds right. That right. So that's all right. Yeah, it
Keith Jopling:is great. And, you know, it's, that's why I think there's a tick tock moment that's going to happen. It's only a matter of time. I mean, they're actually 74 related videos on Tiktok already for the way it is. But anyway, is that right? Oh, yeah. It's just because of one. It takes one to go viral. And then it spins the whole thing off, which is I'm telling you, it's going to happen.
Bruce Hornsby:Well, my view I've been moving on from that for years, just not for any reason, other than I'm just moving on stylistically throughout my career, which has led me far afield stylistically, and that's my life. It's not straight. It's not it's atypical, but it's just, I'm just a lifelong student. And I'm way more interested in into evolving and becoming better as a musician as a vocalist, as a player as a writer, especially as a writer. So I nasty letters. I've been getting them ever since my second wreck, you know, because people want you to stay the same. I understand that but that was never when I got the nasty letters saying, How dare you change? My silent response was well, okay, you haven't really you haven't seen anything. So? Yeah, here it comes. And so that's, that's my life. But when we're talking about the art of longevity here that relates to this, because I truly feel that if if I had played it straight and done, like a lot of artists do, basically made stylistically the same record for their entire career, I think I would be on some oldies circuit, you know, hits of the 80s a circuit, you know, and so look, that's a fine way I guess to to grow old. But this is way better. Okay, this is a way more way more involving and inspiring way to be to what's what's happened to me so. So my art of longevity, probably has totally to do with not really giving a rat's ass about what's popular, or whether I'm popular, just trying to please myself and trying to again, grow and evolve and change and expand. On and on and on.
Keith Jopling:I guess you know, it's a fine line between ending up on one of those nostalgia tours. You know, despite everything, it's a fine line. I mean, to me, there were already indications in I mean, we'll come on to, even before the way it is shortly. But you know, in the follow up, you're already starting to, I think show signs of certainly more grandiose music than pop music. I mean, even the way you know, the first album closes out
Bruce Hornsby:as red planes with red planes. And one of the best ones. Yeah, I
Keith Jopling:agree. I love it. Yeah, you're kind of signaling what's ahead to everybody at that point. Right? The dissident.
Bruce Hornsby:Right, that's, that's sort of adventurous to play clusters cluster chord rather than the standard triad. I'm not getting musical on you. But I am a music school nerd. So it's not far. It's always my go to move. So you're right, you you named red plains. And that's, that's quite possibly the song on that first record that I'm the most proud of. I'm not so proud of the the record. I'm not really frankly, that fond of, of any of those early records. Because I'm not so much of a fan of the singer of those records. Me, meaning by squeezing me. But yeah, so I felt like I need to to expand and grow and evolve and get better. And so you're listening to the ears, listen to this record flicked it and it's a completely different person in a way more expressive person to me, and to most people who who comment on it. So again, I guess I'd call myself a slow learner. And so so that's reflected in those first two records starting to loosen up gradually, as you hear the reference go through the years. So anyway, right. So read plays. I'm glad you brought that up, because that would be a harbinger of things to come.
Keith Jopling:Keith here, thanks for listening to the art of longevity. I hope you're enjoying the conversation so far. Please tell your friends, listen back to the other episodes. And don't forget to subscribe on whatever podcast platform you listen to the conversation. You mentioned harbour lights and Justin playing the Pat Metheny parts on that, listening back to the catalogue which I've done pretty much from start to finish, that one really did stand out for me. And I didn't know the record before, but I love it because it is essentially it's a pop jazz record. And it's maybe a little bit more jazz than pop. But I'm intrigued because you'd made three albums with the range up to that point. I mean, RCA Records must have been rubbing their hands together after the way it is just saying give us more of this bro so did you feel like you had to kick against that? Did you or did you have someone there who had your back who said look it's fine just make the music you need to make
Bruce Hornsby:I was lucky because again everyone thought the way this was a besides so no one predicted this and so way it is a song about racism with to not one but to improvise piano solos. I mean, that's not the form the formula for top 40 success so so because of that they left me alone because they thought well, okay, this is totally idiosyncratic, totally iconic clastic that doesn't fit into any of our standard modes that we deal in. Look, it was it was a straight ahead. Kind of rock song unlike a Steve Miller song known that and then, but then the piano playing I'm playing over is coming from McCoy Tyner. It's very adventurous and it's dissonant. It's using what we call chordal harm Are the chords in fourths, and not again, the standard triadic language of popular music. And so, but my music school, my fellow geeks, they had, they couldn't believe what I was getting away with on radio, because that one especially is really Angular and going forward, and it's pretty intense, really, but it burnt acoustic instrument. I'm talking about the solos in the middle again, and at the end on Valley Road. So and that was also a big hit in the States. And so, so the record company left me alone. And so when I moved more into the jet, you're using more of a jazz language on Harbor Lights. The record company just said, Well, okay, they were okay with it. And so we had Joe Galante, who had come in from Nashville. He was the new president. I had seven or eight presidents in 18 years at RCA Records. It was like a bad sports team that's changing coaches every couple of years.
Keith Jopling:When I talk to musicians about longevity, and we talk about well, how many changes were there at the label? So pretty telling, I don't think I'm gonna have executives on this show, apart from one or two? Well,
Bruce Hornsby:there are a few who have stood the test of time in one of those legendary executives, Clive Davis, it was say the eighth president who came in and one of his first moves was to drop after 18 years, and that was okay with the Columbia and that was great. Moves move straight over to the bright red label. And I love that.
Keith Jopling:Yeah, so someone RCA was okay with it. Joe Galante
Bruce Hornsby:came up came on as the third president in six years in my first six years at RCA. And he just left me alone. And he came down to the studio, he and his, his jolly promotional promotion henchmen. And either either they were pretending or they weren't, but he seemed to love what I was doing on Harbor Lights. I think he did here. A couple of potentials, hit singles, fields of gray being one of them. So kind of a Sam Cooke ash song about my newborn baby boys at the time. And so it was all fine it just so I can safely say I dodged the bullet of the record exec on your neck, telling you where's the hit? Where's the hit? Where's the hit? That was I was I was fortunate. Because I think because of again, the stylistic nature of the way it is the oddball nature of it. I know what it is. It sounds funny to talk about this, because the way it is, has a very nice sound that goes down easy. But in and around that is, again, improvised soloing.
Keith Jopling:Yeah, completely. I mean, look, I think that's what makes it unique. Because I mean, the one of the other things I've discovered, if you like, as part of these conversations about longevity is that often the musicians I'm talking to and the guests I have on the show, so people like you have kind of created genres in in their own right, which those first few albums did. I mean, they called it the Virginia sound, didn't they? I mean, it was it was kind of a I mean, it was a unique combination, because I guess it was sophisticated, but very nice on the year. Well,
Bruce Hornsby:I guess the Virginia sound could be could have come into being as the name for it because there is a good bit of folk country bluegrass influence in those not not the hits, not way it is but mandolin rain had that. And in obviously the title, subject matter as well. And continuing on with the rest of the records. I had bailed flick again, the great banjo master playing on the third record, and the fifth record, so but it's kind of facile to call the Virginia sad because I'm from Virginia. So you know, I guess if I had been from Delaware, it would have become the Delaware. So you know, it's a little it's a little inane, really, but I saw that and I go, Okay, have a ball with that. But I don't care what you call it. It's okay.
Keith Jopling:Yeah, I guess the point is, people were trying to put a badge on it, because it's it was something that I hadn't heard before.
Bruce Hornsby:I was the late start, I mean, late too late to the party, as far as getting a record deal getting a chance to try to do this on a large scale. I got signed when I was 30. And in 1985. And so it took me that long to maybe find my own voice, my own unique style, that where whether you liked it or not. And let's face it, a lot of people didn't like it at all. But but enough did. But whether you liked it or not, you knew it was my record. And that's the trick. That's the hard part. When people come to me, young, aspiring singer, songwriters, bands, etc. My standard line after I listen to their music is well it's very good. You're all great players and great singers. The performances are so great, but it sounds it's it's stylistically so derivative and so reminiscent of Smitty and I'll fill in the blanks with the particular style that they're in which they're dealing with So that's the hard part. It's easy to replicate, to imitate, but to innovate is a whole different thing. And but that's what's that's what's essential. Most people who have stood the test of time that long careers have had a unique sound that's identifiable. So it took me a while to achieve that. And that's very important for longevity to me finding your own voice. I went through a serious phase as a listener, series, Sam Cooke phase. And that was happening there. So in my own small way, Hill, I was doing by Sam version, on fields of gray. And then I did it again, on the next record. It's been a long, dark night, you know, I've been running on though the FBI, that was a song on the Hot House record number 519 95. And another one of the single walk in the sun was very much sort of a drifters, modern day drifters, song. So I was dealing in that old early 60s, sort of pre rock doowop, Soul thing, size influenced by that, and those tended to be the singles because they were very, very hot. And they weren't big successes, but they weren't terrible. They weren't complete bombs, either. Talking about the songs from Hot House, feels a Greg got to number 69, with an anchor on the Billboard Hot 100. And walk in the sun got to 54 with an anchor and that was so I could say I'm top 60 on that one I'm just making a joke about but there's, those are the actual facts. I
Keith Jopling:think at that point, you'd kind of you'd cast aside attachment to commercial success successfully, because there's a huge pressure at that point to keep on having hits, and especially when you sign to a major label, you wouldn't get away with it these days, Bruce,
Bruce Hornsby:I'm sure that's true. So again, I was fortunate because of my first hit, because the first hit was so again, idiosyncratic and a typical, and so they let me they left me alone. But again, you know, as you're saying, they're always listening, as you're listening to your record, they're always listening for that one song that they can work at, commercially. And in both those on both those records, Harbor Lights, and hothouse, they heard those songs. And so maybe that is also why I was not pressured. Because that gets they thought, well, he's doing this crazy stuff. But he always gives us one. There's that spirit Trail, which a lot of people consider to be my best record, the sixth record, where I've moved a little away from the jazz language and move more into sort of an Americana thing. I had developed this two handed independence technique in my piano playing and I featured that like crazy and songs like King of the Hill, resting place, sad moon like crazy, where if you listen to it, you'll know what I mean it it's serious split brain. Music, you know, the tap this this thing,
Keith Jopling:putting your head and rubbing the chest. Yep, patent. And so
Bruce Hornsby:I was doing the piano, pianistic version of the padding and the rubbing at once. And so again, that's that whole approach. When I turned 40 I decided to rededicate myself to study the piano and deal with this to an independence idea that I've been inspired by pianists like Keith Jarrett was sort of the paradigm is unbelievable, sort of otherworldly in that way. And so I tried to find my own way into that my own version of that and spirit trail reflected that a lot so obviously not much of a commercial consideration there sort of the exact opposite purely an attempt at growing my artistry on a virtuosic level virtuosity level of the piano. So that one that one was was a little bit like these latest your latest new records. Great response from the critical community on spirit trail, but no real single so that's probably when they just started ever so slightly to sour on Hornsby.
Keith Jopling:How was life as an international pop star for you anyway it like hitting the heights at 31 As you said
Bruce Hornsby:I was pretty bad at it. I was I didn't take it seriously I thought I thought so much of it was as you lot let's say a load of bollocks you know, I thought it was in a idiocy you know, you go and do the chat shows and in in Holland and Germany and and in the UK. The Wolken show are the top of the top of the pop show. Yeah, and we're up there feeling like where the Archie is in 1968 with Sugar, Sugar Lips. Thinking on American Bandstand, you know, so you, you feel at age 31, like, Okay, what's wrong with this picture? It's me.
Keith Jopling:And this is my thing I didn't quite feel comfortable. I
Bruce Hornsby:just felt clownish in some ways. But so, consequently, my reaction to that was, well, let's take the piss out of the whole thing. And so, so we made some of the worst videos in the MTV made in the MTV sort of heyday era. Our videos were an excuse to get our friends on TV. But as pieces of art found, found wanting in a major way. So that was us sending the industry sending it up. Exactly, it was a send up for me, for the most part, when I did Wogan and top of the pots. I hadn't quite gotten to that place where, okay, this is idiocy. So I'm going to treat it like that. But again, I never felt that I was really great at that game. I, I wasn't a media presence. I wasn't a fashion magnate. In fact, I was just a guy playing music, it was perfect for me to play with the Grateful Dead because they had the same approach. They thought it was all about the music, and the rest of it meant zero to them. And they were trying to just find a deep expression in their own art. And they freaking did that the Grateful Dead. A lot of people sort of rag on me when I played with the dead lot of my sort of singer songwriter, friends couldn't believe they couldn't understand why I would play with them. And I said, Well, okay, well, for one, you need to come here and live, it's more of a live thing than a record thing. But some of the records are fantastic, too. I would say to them, Well, you just can't get past the way they play and sing them. Because sometimes it's sometimes this thing is a bit out of tune. Sometimes it's a little loose on a groove level, that's kind of what they're going for, frankly, but but but people who are, who are more straight in their tastes, couldn't get with that. But my time with them, I wouldn't trade trade for anything. I grew up playing with my brothers grateful that cover bands, and all of a sudden they're asking me to open for them in 87, because they liked our first record. And it just kept on just growing from that.
Keith Jopling:You know, he's you say in the UK, where you're not quite a one hit wonder have to say I think it's a bit extends to a bit more than that. But most people would have wouldn't have a clue that you joined the Grateful Dead. I mean, they literally wouldn't have a clue. The
Bruce Hornsby:world doesn't know who I am, to the mass of the world, the mainstream. They know, of me as a guy who had in America, four or five hit songs, and a couple of songs written within for other people that were big hits for them. And that's it. And so they really, when people come up to me and say, Oh, I love you, blah, blah, are you still doing? And I say, well, thank you very much. And you've missed the best part. Because I truly feel that the best part has come after the hits. And because I just says to be it's been a deeper, deeper level expression. A lot of people aren't interested in that. And so they went off of me and that's fine. I totally understand it at all.
Keith Jopling:I mean, I read somewhere that you when you joined the Grateful Dead or was for a tour you did five dates at Madison Square Garden without rehearsal. Is that true?
Bruce Hornsby:No. The quick story of my dead. My entree into that world was again, they asked me 1987 Spring, May of 87. Out of the blue, we got asked by the Grateful Dead to open two concerts for them right cooter and in my band and the dead in Monterey, California than the 88. They asked they asked us to do two more, or maybe three more. And then I started sitting in with them in 88 and 89, they asked us to do three more. And I would sit in with them. And then Garcia played on my on our night on the town record. It just kept growing and evolving. And then 1990. We did even more two or three, two more. And then it culminated sadly in the death of Brett Medlin, their keyboard player and them asking me to join them, but I will I didn't join them because I had my own thing going fairly solidly at the time. But I did help them through the transition period for their new cure a cure player who wasn't really knowledgeable regarding the dead music. So I did that for about 20 months. And so the first time so yes, I went in. They picked me up if they sent a limo to lay compound's Connecticut, the end of a range tour, picked me up drove me to the Ritz Carlton by Central Park and the next night I was winging it with him with no rehearsal at the garden. But now mind you, since I had played in The aforementioned Grateful Dead cover band my brother Bobby Hornsby had a band called Bobby high test and the octane kids, and I was little Brucey, playing Fender Rhodes and singing lead on Jack Straw and sugar, Magnolia, et cetera, et cetera. So I had I was fairly knowledgeable about their corpus, their body of work, I probably knew 30 to 40 Dead songs. That meant I didn't know about 120 or I had a master list of about 160 that they chose from for their sets because they had no setlist. So I so I could kind of go in and wing it with them. And we would rehearse. We'd actually do sound checks when Vince Well Nick Vinnie and I were the new the new keyboard players, keyboard tandem. And so we got through it just fine. And so that was an amazing transcendent experience to just all of a sudden, bam, here, I'm in the band. And we did a European tour right after that. I went up to Front Street in Marin County, and, and rehearsed with them for about a week. And they weren't much for rehearsals. So they were really trying to make this work in a in a great way. And we came and did, we did three nights at Wembley. And we did a, I don't know, 10 to 12 concerts throughout Europe, felt like most of the crowd was made up of Americans on holiday.
Keith Jopling:I was gonna say be be interesting at Wembley to see the Brits go here. Who's the guy on the keyboard?
Bruce Hornsby:This isn't the guy who was on Top of the Pops four years ago, right? Yeah. So anyway, that was an amazing experience, and Garcia kept playing on my records. And even even after I quit the band in 92, I just had twin sons that wanted to be home more that I would continue to sit in with them when they were geographically close to me all the way through the end until Garcia die.
Keith Jopling:The art of longevity is a team method. show is produced by the songs of Elio that's me. With project melody. It's audio engineered and edited by audio culture. Our amazing cover up is by the wonderful Nick Clark. And original music for the show is by Andrew James Johnson. Bruce, I wanted to ask you about the involvement with the frasco
Bruce Hornsby:Oh, I interesting. Nobody asked me about that. Okay, fine.
Keith Jopling:Yeah, cuz you founded this creative American music program. And I like what I read about it from the motivational point of view. And I was just intrigued as to why you did that. Was it a response to the kind of modern way that songs are written these days? Do you feel like it's, it's gone in the wrong direction? Or was it just completely separate from that?
Bruce Hornsby:No, I don't. I don't feel that about modern music. I think it's there's lots of really gripping modern music being made where there are great songs out there written a lot of that comes to me from the indie world. I don't think we're in this dire time when everything's going to hell on a musical level. Oh, Modern Life Is Rubbish.
Keith Jopling:Yeah, that's, that's
Bruce Hornsby:not me. I'm not that guy. came about in this way. I wanted to do something whilst old school I spent my last two years of college I'm for my last my junior and senior years, we say over here. At University of Miami, I had a really tough teacher who told me, You're terrible. But if you do this, and this and this, and this, and this, everything I say you won't be terrible, and he couldn't wait to move you off the piano bench to show you how to do it. He was one of those teachers who could not only talk the talk, he could really walk it to he could walk the walk. He was a great player. Vince maggio was his name just passed last year, I consider that he was my teacher all the way up until he died. Whenever I would do something, I would think to myself, Okay, what would Vince think? So I got a lot out of my last two years there at Miami, and I wanted to give back because they say, and so I was going to do the standard. endowing a scholarship, something like that. But part of the was kind of blanching at this idea because I thought, Well, okay, so are we going to give a scholarship to some young sax player who's trying to be the next Charlie Parker or the next John Coltrane. That's not really who I am musically. I love that music, but it's not what I ended up doing. I would always in my college years, I'd buy to go to the record store and buy a John Coltrane record and Joni Mitchell record. I always find myself listening to the Joni Mitchell record more than the train record. And so that showed me where which road I needed to go down post college. The same time I was reading this, this book of Bob Dylan interviews that came out around that time. I don't know I guess it's probably the mid mid 2000s, the mid aughts. And often in these interviews, he would be asked, well, what would you say? How does one become a great to a young aspiring songwriter? What would you say to him and Bob Dylan, generally the same answer because we only have one answer for most questions. And unless we're starting to take the piss, we're bored with everything, we start making up things. So he would say, well, you need to go back to the traditions. The Harry Smith anthology of folk music, old, old, down the dirt, gut bucket, country music and traditional musical Delta Blues, the great black church tradition shape note singing sacred harp, music, the American music palette is broad. And so you learn those traditions, and steep yourself in that language, that are all those types of Lang all those languages. And then take from there and find your own way of do of making this music because as he said, rock music happened when, when blues and country music came together, when Jimmy Rogers, the singing, break man that crossed with Muddy Waters say, and so that resonated with me deeply. And I said, this is what I want to do. So I called up the Dean of the School Bill hip was his name. And said, Okay, change of plans, no scholarship, well, there will be a scholarship component of my, in my plan. But I wanted to create this a music program for songwriters, where they and I created a 15 CD, painstakingly went through all this music and created this 15 CD collection of what I thought was amazing. Cajun music, for instance. Yeah, the great music from Louisiana, all these styles. So I wanted the music students to come in, and really grok all of this now. So that was that was my high brown notion. It hasn't ended that ended up really being like that. It's, alas, it hasn't. And so I'm I wish the the actual situation was more like the way I envisioned it. But there's still a little bit of that going on. And it's it's become a popular program. And people it's hard to get into and, and so it's a high bar, they're great, great ability. I just sometimes feel that when I see music, when they send me some examples of some of the young writers coming up. It feels pretty derivative, and it feels like everyone's trying to be popular. And that's that wasn't. That
Keith Jopling:wasn't the point. Yeah,
Bruce Hornsby:no, it wasn't the point. If I'm asking you to, to really learn John Lee Hooker, and Bill Monroe, I'm not asking you to be popular, I'm not I'm not setting you on the road for popularity, because that's a completely different thing. So but that was, that's how it came about. The
Keith Jopling:other thing, I think, with musicians these days is there is a lack of patience, I think people just want to get to creating their sound from the very beginning. And so going to the traditions and learning the craft, it feels like that's exactly what they don't have time for. I wanted to get your view as someone who founded that, that program. And as someone who collaborates now, as we've talked about, with all these great modern musicians that are really, really honing the craft now I mean, how do you sum up 2022 is a time for, for musicians and being in this industry?
Bruce Hornsby:Well, I think it was always really hard. But it was much clearer back then. If it's a much clearer, you're in the game or you're out of the game, meaning it's more like professional sports. You're either in the Champions League, or you're not you're either in the NFL or the NBA, or you're not. And so it was it was very akin to that. Just like say, there are 30 teams in said pro top pro league there. And at that time in the 50s 60s 70s 80s 90s, early 2000s. There were anywhere from 20 to 30 major labels. And so everyone was trying well, not everyone you had your college radio, you had your alternative crowd that was making independent music and and that was a beautiful area. A lot of great music came from that all along, whether it's Velvet Underground or REM, you know, and on and on and on. But for the most part, it was this thing, and so it was very cut and dried. Then when the internet came the internet that kills businesses skills killed the record companies, the record companies became not as all powerful as an You know, as omnipotent as they had been. And so now it's the wild frontier, it's so amorphous, it's so hard to put your finger on, you know, you, people put out their own record, and they try to get likes and, and views. And you so you can have someone who on YouTube has a billion views. And he goes to Williamsburg, Virginia, and he can't fill this little room with, you know, and so none of it makes sense. That was never the case before. So it was horrible, always hard. But it was, again, it was real cut and dry. You were either in or you're out, it took me again. So I was 30 to break down that door and get a record deal with RCA Records. And the get my chance have finally arrived at the time where this is more this is my shot. Now, who knows who it's it's, again, totally, totally amorphous, totally blur, a blurry picture. Yeah. So some things will always be true. The task is to move someone with your music. It's a simple statement, but really hard in practice to make something that really reaches people that's unique, but gives them chills or just moves people in a certain way. And whether it's making them on a dance, or giving them chills, but moving them in that way in a soulful way. What I would say to the young aspirants is don't worry about any of this, just create your own thing that really moves you and be a tough self critic, so easy to criticize other people but are you as tough on yourself as you are? On these other amazing people I seek are the self appointed arbiters of taste in the local record store ragging on the news thing record of the new Peter Gabriel record and you're wanting you want to say, Hey, man, well, let's hear what you do. You know, you're so high and mighty and your opinions about regarding these amazing talents. And now your let's hear what you do. So I've never said that to them. But I always wanted to. So that's what I think that it's some things don't change the music business is unrecognizable from when I started really his. But some things don't change. But I'm so proud to say that the man who signed me at RCA Records was the, the old rhythm guitar player for the zombies. Paul Atkinson. Okay. Okay, beautiful British man, I love and we will we lost him in the late 90s. He didn't think my tape was commercial. It was back in the tape days, he had a cassette player in the car. This was just the cassette that he that he got in that era that he couldn't take out of his car, he couldn't stop listening to it. So it just moved. And so I got my record deal for really all the right reasons not because oh, this is the latest thing or this is going to fit into the latest new wave movement or whatever. It was just something that moved Paul Atkinson deeply and that was that so again, fortunate, I was fortunate
Keith Jopling:and it's part of the motivation for doing this is yeah the the secrets of longevity. They're all different from what it is today. And and I think there's just a huge amount of talent. I mean, in the genres that your music crosses, I mean, look at your collaborators Americana. In Country, there's just huge talent, but I wonder I worry about the longevity.
Bruce Hornsby:Well, you're absolutely right on the virtuosity level, but in the Bluegrass world. Amazing virtuosos who would just blow your mind with their abilities at breakneck tempo, they never make a mistake. It's just awesome. But are they creating something? Stylistically interesting? New they the I'm not gonna say that. It's not out there. I don't hear everything at all but hard to say. I'm not going to be that guy today say, but I will be the guy to agree with you about the level of ability these days which is absolutely amazing. Yeah. But again, when I hear this, some of these funk bands, these young funk bands that are with with horn sections, and oh, the grooves are incredible and the horn and everyone's just nailing everything on a rhythmic level, the time and the groove is just spot on. But I go well, okay, but stylistically or as the substance of it is, is maybe a little lacking to me, like not much meat on the bone. Not much gravitas, but then I'm just an old fart. So
Keith Jopling:it's a substance though. Yeah, it is. It's it's as you say, it's down to substance.
Bruce Hornsby:And I'm sure it's out there. I just haven't maybe haven't heard it. If you want to get the call
Keith Jopling:from anyone out there that's making music now obviously you're working with some some really great names. We talked about them earlier. I mean, who would you like to collaborate with?
Bruce Hornsby:Well, I've always liked Fiona Apple and She's fantastic. And she's actually expressed expressed interest in doing something with me. So if that happens, that would be fantastic.
Keith Jopling:I'd suggest Phoebe bridges, I think it would be interesting to see you do some work with that.
Bruce Hornsby:I'm sort of tangentially related to the same sort of creative club that she's in because her her producers are Tony Berg and Ethan brusca. And Ethan brusca is one of the singers on simple prayer to on this conflict it, and Tony Berg CO produced the record with me. And so I've met Stevie a little bit. If he calls me, I would say, yes, yeah,
Keith Jopling:this is the thing with you. I think that your connections to all of these musicians are there somewhere. I think that's the great thing. So the possibilities are always there. No
Bruce Hornsby:question about? Absolutely. I'm going to play on a record in a couple of months. And I'm excited about that. And so I'm not going to name names because accident hadn't happened yet. I'm going to not brag about it. But but but anyway. Yeah. So what what you're saying is still happening. You're about
Keith Jopling:to do an American tour. Any other plans in the future to come back to Europe as you did after absolute zero? Well, I
Bruce Hornsby:hope so some of the best response we've gotten out of on deflected record is in the UK. And so I hope to come back there, I'd love to bring my band, but I used to come in the late 80s and early 90s, and tour and just open my wallet to the continent, you know, just piss away money. And so I stopped doing that. Now I come over and play solo, which is a great mode of expression. For me, one of the best to my left hand is the band and I really enjoy it. So deep, deep mode. As I said, I do that as 90 and I played shepherds, Bush Empire, and would love to come back and do that. So I hope to do that. But on a more substantial level i We're just about finished with my next record. I've been making two records at once clicked it and this other record with some of my again, recent collaborators, whom I met again through Justin Vernon. They're named why music they're on. They're on all three of these records. Rob moose is their de facto leader, great arranger, great arranger. And so we're making the whole record. Okay,
Keith Jopling:this is the sixth time that you've been working with. Us. Yeah, I mean, just fabulous arrangement. Okay, so very much looking forward to that. Me
Bruce Hornsby:too. I Yeah. I think what we're doing is, is special, but I couldn't be wrong. Well,
Keith Jopling:Bruce has been a pleasure to have you on. I look forward to the word comeback. And Bruce Hornsby every single year from 2020 to 2023 2024. Just is provided that's all with the tour always there, then you're never really out of the culture. But it's great to see you back in the music culture in the public consciousness. I have to say,
Bruce Hornsby:I think it's the London Sunday Times on the last record said described this time for me as as rocks. Unlikely Indian Summer continues. Nicely
Keith Jopling:said you always rely on the times. I agree. Yes. Thank you. Yeah. Thanks for coming on, Bruce. Best of luck. Whatever you do next. I look forward to it.
Bruce Hornsby:Appreciate it. Nice talking to you. Thanks for being Sundowns really appreciate. Sure.
Keith Jopling:Good. See you. Okay, thanks, Bruce. Bye bye.