Hello, sir.
Keith Jopling:How are you, Jonathan?
Jonathan Higgs, Everything Everything:I'm good. Very good.
Keith Jopling:This is the Monday after Glastonbury. I know you weren't there performing this year. But were you there or did you see any of it on a TV?
Jonathan Higgs, Everything Everything:We were in Prague on Friday night and the gig itself was at like 1am. So we were not really in the mood for watching Friday night. I think when Saturday night I watched all McCartney didn't see anything last night because I was drunk. So I mean, I may I may watch Kendrick back but I'm not particularly bothered. There's also a certain element of jealousy, the fact that we weren't playing this year, so that does tend to sort of
Keith Jopling:takes the edge of it. Yeah. I wasn't there either. I was at Rock in Rio was actually seeing our heart and Duran Duran. Well, that sounds like a good night as well. It was a great night. And I did hear for sure. I think a fair bit of the origins of everything, everything in, you know, across both sets, which is really cool from that perspective.
Jonathan Higgs, Everything Everything:Yeah, that's fair. We do really like drag around. Aha. I've always felt like there's probably a good, good wealth of stuff to look into, but I just never have.
Keith Jopling:Yeah, no, there is a huge wealth of stuff. I'd start with scoundrel days. I think that would be up your street.
Jonathan Higgs, Everything Everything:We covered Take on me at Alex's wedding. We were the wedding band. And we sang that was too high for me. So Alex had to sing it. Yeah,
Keith Jopling:yeah, he's he does get quite high this morning. Yeah. John, wanted to get you on. Because I'm a very recent fan. I have to sell familiar with most of the catalog, but calm raw data feel it is my favorite album of 2022. So far. Oh, wow.
Jonathan Higgs, Everything Everything:Thank you.
Keith Jopling:I absolutely love it. I love the ambition of it. And I think I read an interview with you after fever dream. So you wanted to do something more ambitious? And you've definitely achieved it. I mean, it's absolutely great. So congratulations. First and foremost. Thanks very much. And it's 14 songs, which is long for an album. These days. My theory is albums are getting shorter. But there's 14 killer tracks on this album. So let's talk about it for a bit. I know it involves a bit of AI. And a bit of Kevin, I'd like you to sort of get into that a little bit. But I was very relieved, first and foremost that Kevin ended up contributing approximately 5%. That's what I read. Yeah, that's, that's true. So was that was that less than you intended?
Jonathan Higgs, Everything Everything:I didn't intend anything with this record, I think that's the best way to put it. It was, we were suddenly, kind of by surprise, we were challenged to make another record that we didn't intend to make, we just we put out Reanimator in 2020, during the pandemic, and we thought we would be touring that. And you know, maybe the dates would have to be pushed back or something like this. But effectively, that was the mode we were in gearing up to play live, we're just waiting for the pandemic to die down and it didn't die out. And it just kept going on. And we were like, well, what else can we do, we're a band that can't play, we have to make another record. So we can really do. But because vinyl takes a hell of a long time to make now. And we want it to it's a specific part of gear for the release. For various reasons, we had this very, very small three month window to write and record and finish. So from scratch, to mastered another record, and we had no plans for it, we had no ideas necessarily ready to go. I hadn't been studying obscure, scientific bollocks, like I did for the previous record. It was Sunday, like guys are gonna make a record and you want to make an app. So that was how it began. So no, I didn't intend the AI to feature at all, I didn't have that idea until a huge amount of the way through it. So that was incorporating lyrics written by a machine into what I was singing. That was almost just a little experiment of mine that I if it didn't work, I probably wasn't even going to tell the guys in the band about let alone press. But it did work. And it was interesting. And it changed a lot of things about the record in terms of some of the themes were affected by it. And some of the reaction to the songs. And the lyrics, suddenly had this new coat of intrigue for people because they didn't know if they were listening to something that was plucked from my soul, or something that was plucked from a machine that had learned the terms and conditions of LinkedIn. So that was really
Keith Jopling:cool. I thought, yeah, so in a literal sense, maybe the contribution of of AI was small. Yeah,
Jonathan Higgs, Everything Everything:it was, honestly, it was more of a fact. Like, as soon as I said, for the first time to someone, some of these words are written by AI that was actually as powerful as it was gonna get. Because that's, that's, that's all it takes doesn't really matter if you know what the lines are. And I don't tell anyone what lines up doesn't really matter if you know how much AI is in their interest. It's not very much. It's the fact that you will already be attributing meaning and emotion to something that comes from the machine and you don't even know and it puts it throws everything into doubt. And it throws up so many new questions about where meaning even comes from in lyrics. And it's increasingly clear to me that really the meaning comes from the listener. It doesn't really come from the artist at all, because I've had hundreds of people tell me their meanings for my words before I And they're all different. And then none of them are my meeting. And it doesn't matter. It's great. Yeah, I
Keith Jopling:think that's the beautiful thing about a song. Right? Once you put it out there, everybody adapts it in their own way. So in that sense, you've used AI as in, I think they call it generative AI in music, which is using it for inspiration. That was the relief to me a little bit, you know, I do have this sense that someone out there in, you know, the high echelons of music tech land is plotting AI to do something more sinister than the way you use it, which would put musicians out of a job. What's your experience of using it? I mean, do you think it's got the potential to do that?
Jonathan Higgs, Everything Everything:Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I don't think I'm the first I've never looked into it, I probably almost certainly not the first person to do this. And they're probably artists out there, for which the music is generated, the lyrics are generated, the performance itself is simulated, and the image attached is generated. I bet that's already out there and doing really well. That will be a selling point. But I think that will happen, increasingly, so until people don't even bother to say, I'm listening to what's his face. And we all know that that person doesn't exist. It's just accepted. I think that's probably the next five years 10 Max, you already get models on Instagram that have millions of followers. And the model doesn't literally doesn't exist. It's a 3d avatar, or whatever was more generative, which is becoming really powerful now. And no one cares, they just see a very, very beautiful model, who looks kind of unlike anyone they've ever seen. And they look great in those clothes. And they click like, because because that's what people like, you know, and if that happens to be a song, and it makes you feel a certain way, then, you know, emotions are real, whether you like it or not. It doesn't matter where they come from. Some people get it, you know, from a beautiful sunset. And some people get it from killing the boss in Super Mario. Yeah,
Keith Jopling:yeah. It's a true sort of principle of the metaverse, I guess. So if we talk about the longevity of everything, everything, which I hope we will, you'll be competing alongside, you know, artificial intelligence artists and avatars and what have you in 10 years time? If competing is the right word. Yeah,
Jonathan Higgs, Everything Everything:it's not competing. It's, it's, I mean, the thing about AI and generating art, there's this sensation that everyone gets me included when you come across the concept and you think, Oh, so it's not really come from anywhere real, it's not going to be good. Firstly, and then it's not going to mean anything. Secondly, but really a generative thing, certainly, like the lyrics thing I've used. It's, it's just taken language, written by some humans, I chose stuff that was purposely not poetic, like terms and conditions, and some poetry sources, and it's recombining them. That's actually all it's doing. And when I write a song, I'm taking words that someone created in the year 800. And I'm recombining my language to create a song, I'm literally doing the same thing the AI is doing. But I'm, I've got my emotions attached to it. But it's not like the words the AI use. Someone made them up, and they have meanings. It's just recombining them. And our brains are finding patterns in it and find meaning. I don't think it's actually it isn't even that different to what I do. It's just I am a human really?
Keith Jopling:Yeah, well, no, it's really interesting to think of it that way. Because I'd say what it is, that is the difference. You are human. But and when you're saying essentially, sometimes that line is so blurry, maybe it doesn't matter that much.
Jonathan Higgs, Everything Everything:Does it really matter if I recombine 1000 to 6000 words into a sentence that makes sense. Or if a machine does that, based on all the sentences that it's been fed into, which come from humans, and all the words that were fed into it, which come from humans, and then a human listens to it and goes back does that to me? Nothing. Really, that alien is happening. Some human sources are being recombined, not by human that's the difference. And then reinterpreted by humans, it's just humans to humans.
Keith Jopling:Alright, so if, if you want to keep Kevin's lyrics as the mystery you're not going to give me your favorite Kevin and Eric from the album,
Jonathan Higgs, Everything Everything:I guess. Well, I could give you one like if what I've been sharing, which is the title of the song software, great, man. That's, that's an AI creation.
Keith Jopling:I didn't come up with that. Yeah, and it's a great closing song. By the way. It's good to know that AI can come With a musical epic. The ultimate longevity is presented with Bowers and Wilkins. A premium British audiophile Bowers and Wilkins loudspeakers are trusted by some of the world's leading recording studios, including Abbey Road. It's a pleasure to have Bowers and Wilkins supporting the show. So I'm really surprised that the way you've described the the making of the album because it comes across as a very coherent piece of work full of melody. So in a way that that you're kind of saying was thrown together plus the sort of Kevin element, it's come together extremely well, I have to say,
Jonathan Higgs, Everything Everything:Yeah, I think that the pressure on us actually made diamonds as the saying goes, I think something to do with the coherence and the, basically, where everything sounds like one body is another byproduct of doing it in a short time, because that's the state of mind we were in. That's the kind of news we wanted to make. It wasn't spread over six months where, you know, I feel sad, this day, I'm gonna write this kind of song, it was just like, bam, bam, bam, that's right party bangers because we feel like X, Y, and Zed. And these are the kinds of sounds we're going to use, because that's what we've got on our fingertips. And we have to make it now. And I think that actually really does make a good album, to be honest. Loads of albums are made in that way. And I think overthinking stuff doesn't always result in the best stuff. Anyway, we've made our overthinking albums, this is a new approach, we're happy to be thrown out of our comfort zone. And from you, you can't think too much about something when you've got this deadlines. You have to write songs. And they've got to be as good as you can make them.
Keith Jopling:I guess, you know, the deadline is the creative constraint that you have. And it feels like that you've been getting better at the discipline of, you know, leaving stuff out, I guess, getting on with it and finding the craft of the three and a half minute pop song because, you know, you do have a reputation for fitting a lot of ideas in. I like the description of Paul Lester said of everything, everything early on, I think, which is the riot in a melody factory. I like that, because the melody is always there. But there is a lot of you know, the ideas are clattering along. So as a group, as a band, how do you compose? Does the melody come out of the ideas? Or do you have the melody in your head? So
Jonathan Higgs, Everything Everything:me and Alex, right. And the other guys, though, right, and I will, the usual way, is that, in fact, 99% of cases, it's it's harmony first, and then melody and in say, 80% of cases, I'll be writing the melody, regardless of who started the song. That's kind of my primary role. So yeah, Harmony first. I mean, there are maybe two occasions where the melody came first. There's one, I wrote no reptiles just literally walking down the street. And I kind of knew the harmony at the same time as I knew the melody. And it was one of those occasions where you're convinced that this is already a song. And when that happens, it either is a song, or it's your best song. It's really, really weird. It's very, very rare. Because it's got to be something that must be something I know is something it's like, no, it's not. It's just so yeah, that's usually the way and the melodies what I guess my approach the melody, people do ask you this a lot. Like why? Why are your melodies like that? Or where do you get them from? And I know, where do you get performance? A? Quite an open question. But I think I always strive to have a surprising melody and a colorful one. And that means maybe putting, you know, putting leaps instead of runs sometimes or not repeating for a long time. So you'll get a melody that goes all over the place. And you think, Oh, this isn't even a melody. Then once it repeats here it is. It's a melody. And it's it's kind of glorious once you have a not necessarily complex but it just a long one. There's some great songwriter currently who is I think it might be McCartney actually, who talks about that exact thing where along a verse where the male he doesn't even repeat once is like a great Melody and I don't even know if I do that. I just think that I do that. You actually listen to my songs back I probably do repeat a lot. But yeah, I think it's I'm trying to surprise the listeners surprise myself with the color of a melody. So it's exuberant and it already has a lot of feeling in it before there are any words like, like Birdsong, you can kind of well, you can attribute feeling to a bird song. Usually there's a saying, let's have sex or it is the morning. But there's still a lot of energy in melody before lyrics. And I think that the more that you can have, the more interesting and powerful it can be. I could be just saying law The right melody Oh, yeah. What I'm feeling I think that's really great.
Keith Jopling:No, totally. I mean, it's, you know, we were talking about Duran Duran earlier. I mean, they've always been, they've always done well with the wordless chorus. And I hear what you're saying about the lift or the surprise. And I feel like there's a lot of that happens on this record, feeling of a song like bad Friday, and then a marriage just sort of soars out of that song. So it's a little bit of a sort of dissonance somewhere in the song, and then the beauty comes out. So it feels a little bit like, tell me if I'm making this up as well, that your voice on this record is quite a finely honed instrument, it feels like you've learned to even things slightly differently than on the previous albums, or is that just because I'm hearing an album that I really love?
Jonathan Higgs, Everything Everything:I think it's a few things going on there. One is that I am probably better. But I think I'm also probably, I don't really know, here's the thing, I don't listen back to my takes when I've done them. And there's a guy we work with Tom, Tom Fuller, and he was in charge of vocals, and he would tell me if I had failed yet, etc, etc. And he would edit them, and he would present them, you'll produce them. So that can be as hands on, or hands off. Because you're like, sometimes he would leave errors in. Sometimes he would meticulously edit so that it's perfect, like, pure pop. And I said to him at the start, I want to, I want this to what was presented as you know, whatever you would do for the biggest pop act, you've got any works with some big pop acts. I don't really want to sound like you know, emotion, you know, not non emotional, but I want it to be perfect. That's what I said to him. And he's like, okay, so I think he's done some editing. But I do think I'm quite good at singing as well. And it's really daddy's choice of what it's up to everyone's perception of what you think. Good, you know, a good performance is is there emotion in it? Versus is it technically proficient? And it's, it's getting that blend, right? I think. So I don't know, is the honest answer, because I wouldn't. I don't know what's completely real. And what is I feel as though I think like that every night. And then I listened back sometimes like a pout. I'm not as good as I thought. So I don't know.
Keith Jopling:Yeah, so maybe you're not the best judge as a listener. That's the feeling I get that the you know, your voice is very much a vehicle for the songs. Key Thea, thanks for listening to the art of longevity. I hope you're enjoying the conversation so far. Please tell your friends, listen back to the other episodes. And don't forget to subscribe on whatever podcast platform back to the conversation. I've got a question from a kind of industry marketing point of view, I suppose. Because with this show, I've kind of come at it from a fan perspective, but also from an industry insider perspective. Now, I think you've made if not a masterpiece, very close to it. So let's say you know, your best work is still ahead of you. And it's it's on our way. I mean, for me, as I said, it's just such a great album. So how do you make a record like that last in the marketplace or with the audience? Because it seems to me like albums just come and go so rapidly, they almost evaporate, and it doesn't matter how good they are. Or by you know how big an artist they are. Two or three weeks, and it's sort of gone in a puff of smoke. But I don't want this to happen with this record. It's got to live.
Jonathan Higgs, Everything Everything:Yeah, I mean, I wish I knew the answer to that question. Maybe we're old is the first thing to say. Because we want that will because that's how we consume records. And I think to myself, do I give an album two or three weeks and move on and I'm old fashioned in that sense. And I listened to them loads and consider maybe five albums a year to be the ones that I've listened to that year even if reality at I'll only really hold on to a few of them. There's nothing that I can do that in my band do to make to make any bigger impact even someone like Harry Styles it's sort of a flash in the pan it really is maybe maybe Adele beer example of last thing, but that's because she makes so few of them. That's the other thing we talked about a lot is oversaturation. You know we were already we're already starting to to have a conversation about what we're doing next and record only came out three weeks ago as I say. It used to be comes out when you put out five singles now it's you put out eight singles before it comes out. And then it's gone in a week. I think getting to people at the right age is what makes albums last. My teenage albums are still the ones that I hold most dearly and the ones I think about when I think about great albums I don't think about an album I But I was 28, really, unless it was really exceptional. So, I guess getting the record to young people is paramount. That's all you can do if you want it to last is get them while they're young. And we'd be lucky in our career in lots of ways. And one of the big ways was getting into young people, I think, something for some reason, our records are quite appealing to children, actual children, children. And at the time, we just thought, Oh, that's a bit weird. But now that now, you know, now they're, they're in their 20s, some of these eight year old, them dedicated as anything, and they put music went into them at such a crucial time. It's, it's really into the, you know, the never, they're going to be with us for life. And that's the only way I can think of to ensure longevity.
Keith Jopling:And so you're when you're looking out to your audiences, you're seeing a young audience there.
Jonathan Higgs, Everything Everything:It's always been a mixture. But yeah, I'm always surprised by how many young people we managed to retain and attract. I mean, we have we have the PROG dads there on the first game, and they've ever, they've never left to see that. And I'm in the majority of our listenership is roughly outrage. But there's still a steady stream of new ones coming up, which is always really great to see.
Keith Jopling:Yeah, also, I think young audiences, they want something that's got that little bit of weirdness to it, you know, hence, Stranger Things, I guess. Hence, a lot of pop pop that was performed over the weekend at Glastonbury. It's got an edge to it, which your music house so that kind of makes sense. So in terms of how the album does last vinyl, I think of making a bit of a difference as well, because you've got that sense of investing again. And that's what happened with this record, you know, just sort of, because music comes at you like a waterfall, it is just occasionally stopping and say, right, okay, I'm gonna pick this one. And I'm gonna make this one, you know, the one that they'll play and become familiar with, it's got that depth to it, which is, which is fantastic. So anyway, I recommend everybody to play it start to finish. Just one last thing on it. When I do that, I've been hearing a musical sort of got that some storytelling element to it. That might be one way of maybe making it last further. Well,
Jonathan Higgs, Everything Everything:I mean, I don't really like musicals, I kind of like the idea of musicals. And whenever I actually encountered them, I'm like, Oh, this is horrible. But I, at the same time, I love the idea of high concept albums, you know, with interlinking songs and narrative that goes across it, and it being really nerdy and really in depth. Even if the reality we never really do it. Because it actually isn't that good makes the worst music, maybe a better, it's a better musical. Because it's got songs in the album isn't as good as if it wasn't one cetera, et cetera. This is the conversation I have myself basically, every time we make a record, and this is maybe the most concept the record we've ever done. But you know, there's Kevin, as a character appears in, you know, four or five bowls. And I've never done anything like that before. And there's a very clear attempt by me to link songs and and have somebody who's in the mall, that isn't just me. So, yeah, I'm very attracted to that idea. But I don't think we'll ever go all the way because I don't like musicals very much.
Keith Jopling:Yeah, that would be the challenge is to make a good musical. I
Jonathan Higgs, Everything Everything:think we could make a good musical. But it wouldn't be a good album, you know what I mean? I don't know. I think we get lost in whatever the story was, you know, it just wouldn't be a good album, I don't think it will become its own thing, which maybe I'll do one day.
Keith Jopling:So where are you you're kind of 15 years into your commercial career is everything everything. And raw data feel is the sixth album that makes you relatively young as a as a guest on the show? But do you think about longevity as a band? Do you talk about it? Or do you feel like you've kind of crossed the Rubicon already, and it's just a case of keeping going.
Jonathan Higgs, Everything Everything:We crossed it. On our third record, I think that was the point where we sort of thought, okay, we can probably stop worrying about being in a band as a job thing is, I think we've done the thing, whatever it is essentially woken enough people to to us that we can probably sustain, probably, I don't know, it's still a it's a weird job, and it's an unstable job. But we've always approached the band as a long term thing and wanting it to be one of those bands that would rather leave a cult lasting legacy that the people in 20 years refer to influence new bands, then a big fucking band that does one really good record and then everyone sort of goes on so 2010 Two years later, we just weren't part Got a wave, and we weren't very big. You know, at the time, we've had this steady sort of grind of colds, which I think is preferable. It's the kind of sanity but at the end of the day, it's the only kind of man we can be. That's what we are. And that's the kind of career I've had. And it's one I am very proud of. Looking
Keith Jopling:back over the album's feels to me like your last three, maybe even four records have been building towards something that is this cohesive thing that you've found that everything everything sound, which, you know, there's so many references that you can compare the band with, but you've melded it into something uniquely, you I mean, if you go back over the the earlier records, do you feel like there was a, I don't know, a moment where you you felt the fragility of being in a band?
Jonathan Higgs, Everything Everything:Yeah, I mean, that's the whole first couple of records are sort of fraught with those kind of feelings. It's like, Should we make this song more radio friendly, it might be the only chance we ever get to be on the radio or things like that. You have no idea what's going to happen to you, when you make your first record, it could just be nothing. Or it could be everything. Most likely, it's going to be somewhere in between. We tried to put out as many different things as we could to show ourselves that we could, firstly, but secondly, because it opened up, say there's 12 tracks on Analyze, as well. paths we could take from here. It's not like definitely maybe where it's like, here's 11 songs that, you know, similar, they're good. But you know, I think we know what's going to happen next with that with Manulife was like what is going on from track to track and that was such a liberating thing doesn't he don't, the fans that know how to deal with it for a start, and you don't necessarily attract one big crowd, it's not like we were a metal band, but we get the metal crowd. It's like, we got the prop dads, we got some, you know, the hip hop fans, we got teenage girls who like the pop side of us, we got such a massive, diverse set of fans. And we're still seeing that now. In when we look out at the crowd, it's it's wonderfully diverse, because people like different things from us, and we still cater to them all. I hope you every time but right now, we'll be like, Oh, I missed the busy drums of you know, Ark. I wish that they played more odd time signatures, like beaver dream, you know, and I miss the heavy stuff they did at the start to the blade. And so we have all these things rushing around. And we like actually, no, this is a this is a dance record. Now this is a I love. I can't remember what the question wasn't just going on about my band now. But there's there's a it's really liberating having lots of different threads. And I don't think it's a lack of focus thing. I think it's, I think all bands should be should be like, we can do it. So we're going to try and do it. Yeah,
Keith Jopling:it feels like that discussion would happen every album because still, even in this day and age, each album is such a huge step. And it's such a big creative statement of the time and that don't come along that often. You know, it's every few years, a lot of work goes into it. The art of longevity is a team effort. show is produced by the songs of Lea that's me with Project melody. It's audio engineered and edited by audio culture are amazing cover up by the wonderful Nick Clark and original music for the show is by Andrew James Johnson. But you were signed to a major label right? So you had that experience from arc second album, see, I think he made three albums on a major label. So what was that conversation like? Because I mean, I'm just being a little bit predictable here in saying this, but I guess they saw commercial potential in the band and wanted us to kind of go down that route of making those melodious commercial
Jonathan Higgs, Everything Everything:singles Well, firstly, the first record was also want to make it just went to great lengths to look like so they signed us for man alive songs, you know, which arguably our least, you know, pop songs certainly some but no, this this idea that the maybe they will once used to do certain things is true. But I can honestly say we never got asked to do that. At any point. When we were on a major we literally never bid. We made the songs as pop as we wanted them to be. And some of them were very successful on things like radio, but that was all from us. They never they literally never stepped in. I wanted to call get to heaven Give me the gun and They said, maybe maybe think of another title, in case there's a fucking terrorist attack, but we can comes out. And they will. They were right about that. And that's honestly, the only thing I could think of that they said to us in, in all those follows years we were on Sony, was
Keith Jopling:that? Yeah, I guess that was a lucky draw then for you, because it's good to, it's good to hear it. But that tends to be you know, not.
Jonathan Higgs, Everything Everything:It's well documented that you know, how much it can be trapped. But there's something about the type of family I think just gave us an hour, we always felt very respected by labels. And I think a lot of the time, we would come up, we would come at them with so many ideas that I think they were just happy for us to do what we were doing, because we were very self sufficient. And we would come up with, you know, a million ideas a song for a start, but then we were comfortable with videos aren't working all the way to present ourselves. And this compared to say, One Direction where obviously everything has been done for them. It was a very easy act to have. And I don't think I think we I think it was quite nice for them to have us. We did a lot of fit ourselves. And we seem to have success in a way that they couldn't really get their hands on, because maybe they didn't really know what we were going to do anyway. Other than, can you make this more successful, it's the only thing they could ever have said, obviously, we want that too. So it wasn't it didn't, it just didn't happen in the old fashioned way, where they come in and go make this old shit. And repeat this bit. In
Keith Jopling:a way you were an early template for, I think the way that even majors prefer it now, which is to take on a band become fully formed. And they do a lot themselves, and they want to express, you know, when they have an album, it's got a theme, and they have got a brand for want of a better word. And the job of the label then is actually just to try and get it to as many people as possible. That's
Jonathan Higgs, Everything Everything:what our current level, exactly the model is called artists without a label, that's the whole point of their existence is that they realized that labels invariably get in the way of artists. So they're literally just there to fund and promote us. That's what they do. And now they're perfectly happy to say that. And artists fucking love it. Obviously, some artists would probably wouldn't love it because they rely on that support network of creatives to do their thing. We're just not like that. We'd like doing everything ourselves and our fans like us doing everything ourselves. And the label we're on a we're perfectly happy for us to do that. Just books, and there's so old fashioned some of the majors with all the ways they basically just try and get in the way of the office. I wouldn't say that ever really happened to us. But the the transparency issue of you know, where does the money go? That's the weird stuff that we never really understood. And that does still go on. But I think it's like you say it's, it's becoming the model that we're currently involved with is becoming the norm, because it actually makes sense. Kind
Keith Jopling:of gives you inspiration for some of your creative material in a sense, doesn't it? The impact of corporations on our lives as we're trying to sort of muddle through and it's definitely one of your themes. And I think, you know, that's present in the music industry as much as anything else. Because Tech has become such a big part of it.
Jonathan Higgs, Everything Everything:I think audiences always know when you know, when a unique voice, shall we say appears on the scene but be it in TV, film, music, anything when there's a fully formed band that already have their own brand, their own look and sound and ideas or when that's a director or when that's anything that's the gold dust that everyone wants labels want it audiences wants it and I don't think the old way of labels trying to create something out of something that isn't really there. That doesn't work anymore. And I think people know it there's such a unbelievable amount of choice. It's really obvious I think when there's a premade product apart from maybe to the youngest who maybe don't see it as cynically as we do. Everyone knows when something has been created. And the way they got around that to begin with was to create it in front of everybody. So they would do your X factors. And say this is the process we've got somebody thinking like the most out of these lot that one okay, we'll take him on to the next round. Who do you like now that one Okay, so by the end of the process, they will fucking guaranteed to be successful because we've all been democratically said, this is the one we're gonna go with because they've got the sob story and the love and the voice you know, it was so it was so brilliant at Should we just go? You know what? We're just going to show you what, how we do this. And it guaranteed success for a while, because that works anymore.
Keith Jopling:Yeah, I think it's definitely one of the secrets of longevity, though is how you start because you kind of create that culture around you from the early beginnings. And then actually, you know, it's the, the Commerce does follow via whatever route so you know, via signing to a label, or DIY, which I guess you were then because you started off infinity industries as your label. And then you went with a while But hang on a minute, a while has been bought by Sony Music, but at least you're back in the family.
Jonathan Higgs, Everything Everything:Back on Sony, I know we realize how ridiculous that is. But we didn't leave Sony because we didn't like them. We just felt like a different way of doing things. It was it was similar. To be honest, we just had fewer concerns, we just got left to our own devices, we've got a similar deal, really a better deal, actually, in terms of finance and stuff like that, and then more freedom. So it just makes sense. And the fact that we're back on Sony is just kind of Sure why not?
Keith Jopling:I mean, it's thinking about, yeah, when we talked about your audiences, the fact that you've kind of crossed that Rubicon, you know, you've had two Mercury nominations, and four top five albums, you know, so you're kind of up there. You've done that without really ever relying on hit singles as such. What are those industry? Accolades? If you like, mean to you? Do they mean anything? Or is it about really just connecting with the audiences? And how you how do you do that?
Jonathan Higgs, Everything Everything:Yeah, it definitely means something to me. Definitely. I'm immensely proud of our Mercury nominations. I think it's, it's really, one of the only ways we can say to people that you know, we are real, we are established, we are respected. Because no one knows how many people are listening to XYZ. No one knows what the capacity crowd is no one, no one knows what your spot FeiFei metrics are, really, and they don't give up anyway. Because it's I don't care about that when I listened to Arcade Fire, I don't actually care about how many other people are listening to it. You can't just go around saying we've got so many listeners. We were on TV once we're on the radio once. But you can say we will make nominated twice, which is great. Yeah. Obviously, I'd rather have a fan base than American nomination. And I'm lucky enough to have both. And it doesn't mean anything when it comes down to making a connection with people. I've seen some terrible things nominated for Mercury's before, you know, I would consider to be shit. So it doesn't it's not actually a stamp of success or quality. But I like the fact that we have been nominated twice. Yeah, of course, I want to get nominated. Again.
Keith Jopling:It's interesting hearing you explain that, because in a way, I think that's maybe where the industry hasn't quite figured out. The relationship between the old and the new. Being in the charts, or being nominated for award is often kind of been attached to, hey, this is going to bring you commercial success. But actually, it means something creatively or to be judged, you know, doing something that is creative success among your peers, not necessarily because it's gonna get you an audience because the audience is kind of there. And it's funny, I work with a lot of young bands that are trying to assess their success, if you like, yeah. And it's actually really hard. The more data you have, the harder it is. Yeah,
Jonathan Higgs, Everything Everything:we do it all the time. We have a meeting scheduled for tomorrow morning, which is a sort of grand strategy when we haven't really had a sit down meeting with our manager since before the pandemic. And the main topic of conversation is basically like, how are we doing as a band? We don't really know. We just got our top four album, but we feel like we're invisible. It's and yet, you are saying if the Album of the Year for you, you know, it's really hard to tell our Spotify listeners are doing great. But we were not being played on the radio. Like, where are we? Who are we? It's it's difficult to tell. Yeah,
Keith Jopling:that's quite disorientating, isn't it? I mean, how does that feel 15 years on from when you form because I guess that landscape has changed. You could
Jonathan Higgs, Everything Everything:tell exactly how big you were because the only metric you had was radio, and awards, frankly, and press. And we've never really, we've never really had good press. We would never have bad press. We've never had much press. So we've never used that to discipline anything. Yeah, we're just not in interesting band for press for some reason.
Keith Jopling:All right. Well, look, I know we don't have too long left. So I feel like you've made a masterpiece. But as I said, Yeah, one of the rules of longevity, if you like is this belief that your best work is ahead of you. So where do you go from here? What are the next steps both practically and in terms of what your thing Looking for everything, everything now.
Jonathan Higgs, Everything Everything:Right now we're we're talking about how to extend this campaign because we've done our tour. And yet we be out the album's only really impacting. Now, I would say, people are really listening to it now. And we've got this disjointed campaign where we've already done the tour and stuff. And so we're gonna talk about that. And really, I guess we're talking about touring next year, and what? Well, if we have to make more music, then I guess we will have a view over the moon about that. But then I didn't for this album, either. It was a surprise, and it was a rush, to be honest. And maybe that's good for us. So all bets are off. To be honest, I don't feel like we need to make an album. I feel like we've just made a really good one. I'd like to enjoy that more. And I'd like to talk that more. And I'd actually like to make a film.
Keith Jopling:So if you've got an idea in mind for a film
Jonathan Higgs, Everything Everything:No, but it will be a horror. I have lots of visual ideas, but I wouldn't say the narrative. And anyway, I'm making it with animation property if I'd if I do it at all, and it will take a hell of a long time. Because it's only me. I don't really know what I'm doing, which is how I like it.
Keith Jopling:Yeah, animation does take a while but okay. Jonathan has been fantastic to talk to you again. Good luck with whatever you decide to do next. So really, congratulations on a fantastic.
Unknown:Thank you.
Jonathan Higgs, Everything Everything:Thanks very much.
Unknown:See you soon. See you later.